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yeezevee
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 17109
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 Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: Swedish city hit by MusliM youth riots_Back to Square one.. |
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7791553.stm
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Dozens of youths have rioted in the southern Swedish city of Malmo for a second consecutive night, setting cars on fire and clashing with police.
"We've had a very difficult evening," a police spokeswoman told the AFP news agency late on Thursday.
"There have been fires burning since this afternoon... extensive damage to public property, and... stone-throwing and bomb threats against police."
She said the trouble was linked to the closure of an Islamic centre.
The owner of the building, in an immigrant neighbourhood, had decided not to renew the centre's lease. The centre, which included a mosque, had to move out.
But some youths squatted in the premises, until they were evicted by police earlier this week.
Once police left the premises, the youths returned, setting fires in the area. They then clashed with police.
"The origin of the riots is the occupation of the building. But that's not really the reason now, now other troublemakers have just joined in, taking advantage of the situation," police spokeswoman Ewa-Gun Westford told AFP. |
http://conservativeculture.com/2007/04/swedens-muslim-riots/
If west doesn't educate and integrate THESE ROBOTS.. Such riots and Tragedies and prejudices will continue to hit the towns of western countries..
yeezevee
Last edited by yeezevee on Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:27 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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sum
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 8527
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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I hate to say this but in the forseeable future "educating" these people will not work. Matters will only become worse. This is where the genius of Muhammad might have to be expolited.
Koran 8:67 - "It is not fitting for a prophet to take captives until he has made great slaughter in the land."
The logic of the situation is that the mindset of these people continues even after the riots have been quelled. It will all happen again and become worse with time. At some point there will be a shoot to kill policy in order to make these people realise that it will not be worth their while to cause so much public disorder and destruction.
Bear in mind the Islamic way of dealing with "mischief in the land" -
Koran 5:33 -
The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
At some point I see nothing left but to be utterly ruthless and subdue them to the point where they will not do it again.
Koran 8:57 - If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.
Again, logic dictates that this is going to be the only way to deal with these people. If they are muslims they will understand and appreciate the severity of their punishment as it will be Islamic. If anyone can think of a different way to what I fear may be the only solution to control these people please let us know. I have said in other posts that I am certain that there will be civil wars in all Western countries that have a significant muslim population. I do not want this but I can not see any other outcome.
sum |
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Rat_bytes
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 539
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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If western countries adopted a "shoot to kill" policy in situations like these, the Islamics would see it as a move against them and declare open war. We do not want warfare in our streets, violence only begets violence.
_________________
The world holds two classes of men - intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence. - Abu’l‐Ala al Ma’arri |
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charleslemartel
Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Rat_bytes wrote: |
| If western countries adopted a "shoot to kill" policy in situations like these, the Islamics would see it as a move against them and declare open war. We do not want warfare in our streets, violence only begets violence. |
Unfortunately, with Muslims even peace begets violence.
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone
Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational? |
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yeezevee
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 17109
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Islam in Europe: Country guide
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Islam is widely considered Europe's fastest growing religion, with immigration and above average birth rates leading to a rapid increase in the Muslim population. The exact number of Muslims is difficult to establish however, as census figures are often questioned and many countries choose not to compile such information anyway.
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ALBANIA
Total population: 3.1 million
Muslim population: 2.2 million (70%)
Background: Religious worship was banned in Albania until the transition from Stalinist state to democracy in the 1990s. Islam is now openly recognised as the country's major religion and most Albanians are Sunni Muslim by virtue of the nation's history: The Balkans has had centuries of association with the faith as many parts of it were part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. While the empire is long gone, the culture remained in place. Significant populations of Albanian Muslims exist in a number of other European countries.
Sources: Total population - Albanian Institute of Statistics, 2005; Muslim population - UK Foreign Office. |
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AUSTRIA
Total population: 8.2 million
Muslim population: 339,000 (4.1%)
Background: Large numbers of Muslims lived under Austrian rule when Bosnia-Hercegovina was annexed by Austria-Hungary in 1908. Many of Austria's Muslims have roots in Turkey and others arrived from the Balkans during the 1990s wars - partly because of historical ties. Islam has been recognised as an official religion in Austria for many years, meaning that it has a role in the religious teaching in schools. Vienna has historically been regarded as the point where the Islamic world reached its most western point, a critical battle in Austria in the 16th century marking the beginning of the decline of the Turkish Ottoman Empire.
Sources: Total population - Statistics Austria, 2005 figures; Muslim population - Statistics Austria, 2001 figures. |
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BELGIUM
Total population: 10.3 million
Muslim population: 0.4 million (4%)
Background: Islam is one of seven recognised religions in Belgium, a status that brings it a number of subsidies and official roles, such as providing teachers. Despite this there have been complaints of discrimination. Unemployment and poor housing have been one such cause of tension. There have also been claims of discrimination against women in traditional dress. A majority of Belgium's Muslims are of Moroccan or Turkish origin; many others are from Albania. (Citizenship is available after seven years).
Sources: Total population - Statistics Belgium 2001; Muslim population - US State Department. |
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BOSNIA-HERCEGOVINA
Total population: 3.8 million
Muslim population: 1.5 million (40%)
Background: Bosnia-Hercegovina is still recovering from the bloody inter-ethnic war of 1992-95. Around 250,000 people died in the conflict between Bosnian Muslims, Croats and Serbs. Almost 8,000 Muslims were killed by Bosnian Serbs at Srebrenica in 1995 - Europe's worst atrocity since World War II. Many Muslims were displaced, as were members of other communities. A peacekeeping force remains in the country, whose frontiers have long been considered the western borders of the Islamic faith in Europe.
Sources: Total population - Agency for Statistics Bosnia and Herzegovina, 2003 figures; Muslim population - US State Department. |
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DENMARK
Total population: 5.4 million
Muslim population: 270,000 (5%)
Background: In the 1970s Muslims arrived from Turkey, Pakistan, Morocco and the former Yugoslavia to work. In the 1980s and 90s the majority of Muslim arrivals were refugees and asylum seekers from Iran, Iraq, Somalia and Bosnia. Access to housing and employment have been sources of concern for Muslims in Denmark. (A minority have citizenship).
Sources: Total population - Statistics Denmark, 2004 figures; Muslim population - US State Department. |
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FRANCE
Total population: 62.3 million
Muslim population: Five to six million (8-9.6%)
Background: The French Muslim population is the largest in western Europe. About 70% have their heritage in former north African colonies of Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia. France favours integration and many Muslims are citizens. Nevertheless, the growth of the community has challenged the French ideal of strict separation of religion and public life. There has been criticism that Muslims face high unemployment and often live in poor suburbs. A ban on religious symbols in public schools provoked a major national row as it was widely regarded as being a ban on the Islamic headscarf. Late 2005 saw widespread and prolonged rioting among mainly immigrant communities across France.
Sources: Total population - National Institute for Statistics and Economic Studies, 2004 figures; Muslim population - French government estimate. |
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GERMANY
Total population: 82.5 million
Muslim population: 3 million (3.6%)
Background: The majority of the Muslim population is Turkish, with many retaining strong links to Turkey. Others arrived from Bosnia and Kosovo during the Balkan wars. Until recently Muslims were considered "guest workers", who would one day leave the country - a view that is changing. Racist violence is a sensitive issue, with the authorities trying a range of strategies to beat it. Steps are being taken to improve integration.
Sources: Total population - Federal Statistical Office, 2004 figures; Muslim population - Federal Ministry of the Interior estimate. |
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ITALY
Total population: 58.4 million
Muslim population: 825,000 (1.4%)
Background: The Muslim population is diverse, the largest group coming from Morocco. Others are from elsewhere in North Africa, south Asia, Albania, and the Middle East. Most arrived from the 1980s onwards, many of them as students. Italy is working to formalise relations between the state and the Muslim community. Up to 160,000 Muslims are Italian born. Most Muslims have the right to reside and work in Italy, but are not citizens.
Sources: Total population - Italian National Statistical Institute; Muslim population - UK Foreign Office. |
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MACEDONIA
Total population: 2.1 million
Muslim population: 630,000 (30%)
Background: Macedonia's largest religion is Macedonian Orthodox, but almost one third of the population describe themselves as Muslim. Macedonia was spared the inter-ethnic violence that affected much of the Balkans following the break-up of Yugoslavia. But in early 2001 rebels staged an uprising demanding greater rights for the ethnic Albanian minority - a group which includes most Muslims. With EU and Nato support a deal was reached offering them greater rights, although some have been unhappy with the pace of change. The US State Department suggests that religious freedom is generally respected and that "societal discrimination is more likely to be based upon ethnic bias" than religion.
Sources: Total population - UK Foreign Office; Muslim population - UK Foreign Office. |
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NETHERLANDS
Total population: 16.3 million
Muslim population: 945,000 or 5.8%
Background: The integration of Muslims remains a concern for the Dutch government, particularly after a film-maker critical of Islam was murdered in 2004 by a radical Islamist. Further tensions surround the view held by some that there is a high level of crime among Muslim youths and a problem with unemployment. In the 1950s Muslims arrived from the former colonies of Suriname and Indonesia. One of the most important groups is the substantial Somali minority. Others are from Turkey and Morocco. The Netherlands favours multiculturalism, essentially the accommodation of different groups on equal terms.
Sources: Total population - Statistics Netherlands, 2005 figures; Muslim population - Statistics Netherlands, 2004 figures. |
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SERBIA AND MONTENEGRO (WITH KOSOVO)
Total population: 10.8 million (including Kosovo); 8.1 million (excluding Kosovo)
Muslim population: Serbia and Montenegro - 405,000 (5%); Kosovo - about 1.8 million (90%)
Background (excluding Kosovo): Within Serbia and Montenegro the predominant religion is Serbian Orthodoxy. Islam is the second largest faith, with Muslims accounting for about 5% of the population, rising to about 20% in Montenegro. The Muslim community is considered one of seven "traditional" religious communities. Religion and ethnicity remain closely linked across the country and discrimination and tensions continue to be reported.
Kosovo background: The late 1990s saw devastating conflict after the Kosovo Liberation Army, supported by the majority ethnic Albanians - most of whom are Muslim - came out in open rebellion against Serbian rule. Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic began "ethnic cleansing" against the Kosovo Albanian population. Thousands died and hundreds of thousands fled. Nato intervened between March and June 1999 with a 78 day bombing campaign to push back Serb forces and Kosovo remains under UN control. The ethnic Albanian community has expressed frustration at the length of time being taken to decide Kosovo's future status. Attacks against Kosovo's remaining minority Serb population have caused concern.
Sources: Total population - UK Foreign Office; Muslim population - US State Department |
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SPAIN
Total population: 43.1 million
Muslim population: 1 million (2.3%)
Background: Almost eight centuries of Moorish rule over Spain came to an end in 1492, providing the country with a strong Islamic legacy, particularly in its architecture. The modern Muslim population started to arrive in significant numbers in the 1970s. Many were Moroccans coming to work in tourism and subsequent growth came when their families joined them. The state recognises Islam, affording it a number of privileges including the teaching of Islam in schools and religious holidays. There have been some reports of tension towards Muslim immigrants. Spain was shaken in 2004 when terror attacks by suspected radical Islamists killed 191 people on Madrid commuter trains.
Sources: Total population - Spanish National Institute of Statistics, 2005 figures; Muslim population - US State Department. |
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SWEDEN
Total population: 9 million
Muslim population: 300,000 (3%)
Background: The Muslim population is broad - with significant groups from Turkey, Bosnia, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon and Syria. The size of the Muslim population is such that representative bodies receive state funding. Sweden favours multiculturalism and immigrants can become citizens after five years. Sweden prides itself on its tolerance, but there has been criticism that Muslims are too often blamed for society's problems.
Sources: Total population - Statistics Sweden, 2005 figures; Muslim population - US State Department. |
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SWITZERLAND
Total population: 7.4 million
Muslim population: 310,800 (4.2%)
Background: Official figures suggest the Muslim population has doubled in recent years, but some sources say there are also about 150,000 Muslims in the country illegally. The first Muslims arrived as workers in the 1960s, mostly from Turkey, the former Yugoslavia and Albania. They were joined by their families in the 1970s and, in recent years, by asylum seekers. (Comparatively few have citizenship.)
Sources: Total population - Swiss Federal Statistical Office, 2003 figures; Muslim population - Swiss Federal Statistical Office, 2000 figures. |
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TURKEY
Total population: 68.7 million
Muslim population: 68 million (99%)
Background: Although Turkey is a secular state, Islam is an important part of Turkish life. Its application to join the EU divided existing members, some of which questioned whether a poor, Muslim country could fit in. Turkey accused its EU opponents of favouring a "Christian club". Membership talks were formally launched in October 2005, with negotiations expected to take 10 years. Most Turks are Sunni Muslim, but a significant number are of the Alevi branch of Shias.
Sources: Total population - Turkish State Institute of Statistics, 2003 figures; Muslim population - US State Department. |
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UNITED KINGDOM
Total population: 58.8 million
Muslim population: 1.6 million (2.8%)
Background: The UK has a long history of contact with Muslims, with links forged from the Middle Ages onwards. In the 19th Century Yemeni men came to work on ships, forming one of the country's first Muslim communities. In the 1960s, significant numbers of Muslims arrived as people in the former colonies took up offers of work. Some of the first were East African Asians, while many came from south Asia. Permanent communities formed and at least 50% of the current population was born in the UK. Significant communities with links to Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia and the Balkans also exist. The 2001 Census showed one third of the Muslim population was under 16 - the highest proportion for any group. It also highlighted high levels of unemployment, low levels of qualifications and low home ownership. The UK favours multiculturalism, an idea shared by other countries which, in general terms, accepts all cultures as having equal value and has influence over how government engages with minorities.
Sources: Total population - Office for National Statistics, 2001 figures; Muslim population - Office for National Statistics, 2001 figures. |
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yeezevee |
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sum
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 8527
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Rat_bytes
I can not see any other way to deal with the problem. They are calling our bluff, getting away with it, destroying our societies by disruption, division and bleeding us economically.
As far as violence begetting violence is concerned, the violence is always coming from one quarter and will have to be returned.
If there was all out war what do you see as the outcome?
I hasten to add that I do not want this but in my heart of hearts I see it as inevitable.
Winston Churchill
If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.
sum |
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Rat_bytes
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 539
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| sum wrote: |
Hello Rat_bytes
I can not see any other way to deal with the problem. They are calling our bluff, getting away with it, destroying our societies by disruption, division and bleeding us economically. |
You are right, but we cannot combat this with more violence. Laws designed to throttle Islamic expansion are needed, and obviously everyone needs to wake up to the threat and stop crapping on about "the peace-loving majority". I'm sure the majority of Chinese under Mao's regime were peace-loving, but that didn't stop the Maoists from killing almost 100 million people.
It's clear that something needs to change, the west can't continue down this road of unconditional tolerance. However, taking an example from the Islamics and bringing more violence to our streets is something we do not need.
| sum wrote: |
As far as violence begetting violence is concerned, the violence is always coming from one quarter and will have to be returned.
If there was all out war what do you see as the outcome?
I hasten to add that I do not want this but in my heart of hearts I see it as inevitable. |
The violence is indeed coming from one quarter, but I don't think we're up to the point where we need to consider shooting people in the streets. The rioting is a huge problem and a major source of social unrest in itself, but what do you think would happen if more violence was brought into the situation instead of a damage control approach? I know what would be most likely to happen - the streets would explode with angry Muslims carrying weapons, and they would roadblock off districts and lay siege to official buildings.
The outcome of an all-out war? The same as the outcome of all wars - death, devastation, and atrocity. It seems as if the Islamics want this above everything else, which is another reason we must avoid it at all costs. The fact that we would win is not in question here - the west has the weapons, the training, the resources, and the type of civilised society necessary to win any war eventually. The problem we have is that should a war break out, a lot of collateral damage would happen, and it would change our philosophy and way of life irrevocably. Simply put, the West won't be able to cope with another ideological world war without a massive breakdown. Considering that fanatical Muslims are in about the same numbers as the population of the USA, we'd be looking at a war with no end in sight.
| sum wrote: |
Winston Churchill
If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.
sum |
We are so quickly jumping to the conclusion of war and violence, but has anyone actually tried using our greatest asset of all - our right to free speech? I haven't seen it being used on a large scale at all. It's being eroded away through disuse, but I predict that if a verbal war were waged on Islam, mercilessly pointing out it's flaws, stupidities, and trail of bloodshed using humour and parody, the problem would slowly disappear back to the s4ithole countries it came from.
One thing people hate is to be laughed at. It's one thing to promote an "us vs them" environment where your enemy is treated as an enemy and given the appropriate respect - it's another thing entirely to show up their idiocy and laugh at them long and hard, showing them you are not the tiniest bit afraid. Smart people don't like to be associated with ideologies or concepts that are stupid. There would be no more Islamic schools or universities, because it would be widely accepted that these were places of indoctrination, not learning.
At the moment what we've got is a society which views the Muslim as dangerous, unpredictable, and edgy. People pussyfoot around them and ridiculous measures are taken so as not to offend them. If they take offense at something, their Imams make thinly veiled threats of "reprecussions" and "bad feeling in the Islamic community". Why are we tolerating this without publicly lambasting them? Why is every backward Muslim Imam not brought into the light and jeered at? We don't truly want these social vampires anywhere near us, why is it taking so long for us to find our testicles?
If we went in exactly the opposite way and began deriding all aspects of the ideology that did not fit in with tolerant western philosophy, it would seperate the peaceful from the warmonger whilst creating a pseudo-hostile environment for anyone who wanted to spread religious hatred. It's very hard to spew venom without looking like an idiot against people who are laughing at you.
_________________
The world holds two classes of men - intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence. - Abu’l‐Ala al Ma’arri |
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universal
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 39
Location: tora bora caves
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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yeezevee wrote
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| If west doesn't educate and integrate THESE ROBOTS.. Such riots and Tragedies and prejudices will continue to his the towns of west countries |
Do you really think they can be educated to the point that they will agree to set aside some parts of Quran as impractical/cruel and against humanity. Don't you see on this forum Muslims defending or trying desparetely to defend everything in the Quran someway or the other be it "cutting the hands of thief" or "punishment for adultry". I do not think they would appreciate education in this regard unless they have not read or are not aware of the contents of Quran. Have you ever come across a Muslim who does not want Sharia Law all over the world?..Kafirs do not have to do anything for Muslims to hate them their Quran and Hadiths are enough for them to hate non-muslims.
sum wrote
| Quote: |
Winston Churchill
If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. |
Another quote from Winston Churchill comes to my mind "We shall show mercy, but we shall not ask for it"...
I think if we continue to tolerate these kind of peaceful gestures by the followers of religion of peace we may in future be witnessing what WC said, we should not continue to tolerate these kind of gestures and let things to come to pass to the point where we will have to ask for mercy from the followers of religion of peace and history is the proof of what they do when they have a clear cut upper hand. |
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anna
Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 816
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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In Holland the VVD (moderately 'right'political party) has proposed that Moroccan youth who pester/commit crimes in the Netherlands be sent back to Morocco. All of these have to have (!) Moroccan passport even if they are born in the Netherlands; and Moroccan passports are declared 'holy' as connected with Islam. On order of the king of Morocco Moroccans have to give thei children Islamic names - in the Netherlands! 
And of course Moroccans complain that we (!) discriminate against them.  |
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passerby
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1767
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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You can't control them once these savages are in your country. Their high birth rate will easily overwhelm the indigenous population one day. These savages knew that and that is why they are so arrogant and refuse to live peacefully with non-muslims. It must be a joke asking them to integrate into the host country. They are here to overwhelm us.  |
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sum
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 8527
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Rat_bytes
I would like to think that your approach would work but I am certain that it would be doomed to failure. It is impossible to educate the masses of the muslims as they are beyond reach. They are influenced by their Islamic upbringing with its brainwashing, the mosque, Islamic TV and internet, and their peers. It is impossible to override these.
I have tried to get the newspapers involved by publishing a verse from the Koran which would explain why muslims are religiously inspired to commit atrocities. I have made other suggestions. Everything has been ignored or declined. The government will not say anything of note about the downside of Islam. If you want to see how the government sides with muslims and Islam please read the following easy to read Siddiqui Report - http://www.mihe.org.uk/mihe/upload/documents/siddiqui_report2007.pdf
It is most alarming to the point where those who implement the suggestions could be reasonably accused of treasonable activity.
Suppose that the media concentrated on Muhammad and exposed his lifestyle and activities, just imagine the muslim backlash, bearing in mind the problems after the cartoons. If the muslims went on a rampage causing violence, destruction of property, arson, killing etc, what would you do? Not only that, would you discontinue the public scrutiny of Islam and Muhammad because of the fear of more violence? If the public scrutiny was discontinued then, with only a few percent of the population, muslims have won control. We have lost.
If it takes bloodshed then we hold that over the muslims rather than the muslims holding it over us. Remember Muhammad`s claim that he had been made victorious through terror? It must be recognised that we are truly in a war situation. Islam even tells us – Dar Al_Harb. I would suggest that whatever force is necessary to control the muslims it should be used, even if bloodshed is required. The ball is in the muslims` court and if they resort to violence it should be returned in full and disproportionately heavy in order to protect our future. If they become proper citizens it would be fine but that us a pipe dream. The Koran, ahadith and Islam all prevent that.
Do not forget that you are a kafir – najis – impure, unclean and best avoided.
sum |
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charleslemartel
Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| sum wrote: |
| I have said in other posts that I am certain that there will be civil wars in all Western countries that have a significant muslim population. I do not want this but I can not see any other outcome. |
Hello sum,
The things are moving in a direction where common people will be forced to take matters in their hands. This, in no small measure, will come to pass because of our leaders who prefer to be seen as politically correct and suffer from perfect dhimmi mentality. People are getting sick of their leaders and their disappointment and outrage is growing day by day.
While none of us prefers a violent solution to the problem, a peaceful solution can come only through an inspired leadership which fully understands the enormity and ramifications of the problem, which is not afraid of sounding politically incorrect, and which has steel in its spine.
In the absence of such a leadership, common populace will act some day to solve the problem. It will be lead by a mob mentality in absence of proper leadership. And this is the scenario I, like you, think that the world is inexorable moving towards.
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone
Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational? |
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Rat_bytes
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 539
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| sum wrote: |
Hello Rat_bytes
I would like to think that your approach would work but I am certain that it would be doomed to failure. It is impossible to educate the masses of the muslims as they are beyond reach. They are influenced by their Islamic upbringing with its brainwashing, the mosque, Islamic TV and internet, and their peers. It is impossible to override these. |
It's less about educating those people and more about educating the non-muslim population and those Muslims who might be sitting on the fence.
If my idea is implemented, all Islamic influence in the country would be discontinued except for a heavily regulated government-run mosque association. There would be heavy scrutiny that all Islamic elements in the country would undergo, and nothing that was deemed to incite violence or hatred would be allowed past the borders.
| sum wrote: |
I have tried to get the newspapers involved by publishing a verse from the Koran which would explain why muslims are religiously inspired to commit atrocities. I have made other suggestions. Everything has been ignored or declined. The government will not say anything of note about the downside of Islam. If you want to see how the government sides with muslims and Islam please read the following easy to read Siddiqui Report - http://www.mihe.org.uk/mihe/upload/documents/siddiqui_report2007.pdf
It is most alarming to the point where those who implement the suggestions could be reasonably accused of treasonable activity. |
This is exactly what I am talking about - people are unwilling to utilize their freedom of speech because they are afraid of what the Muslims will do. It hasn't gotten to the point where people have realized that this is a permanent threat to their way of life that will not go away. They're still under the impression that if we're nice to the Muslims and avoid offending them, they'll decide to leave our culture alone. Hopefully this attitude will be eliminated as the problem worsens.
| sum wrote: |
| Suppose that the media concentrated on Muhammad and exposed his lifestyle and activities, just imagine the muslim backlash, bearing in mind the problems after the cartoons. If the muslims went on a rampage causing violence, destruction of property, arson, killing etc, what would you do? Not only that, would you discontinue the public scrutiny of Islam and Muhammad because of the fear of more violence? If the public scrutiny was discontinued then, with only a few percent of the population, muslims have won control. We have lost. |
Unfortunately what you describe is the inevitable outcome of Islam in Britain regardless of the measures that are taken against it. No matter what we do, Muslim violence will increase. Is the answer to begin killing the simple, ignorant young footsoldiers that are brainwashed into their actions by older Muslims? I think that would make the problem immeasurably worse. The problem we are facing is not humans themselves, but an ideology created by humans that has been allowed to take over. We must focus our attack on the ideology instead of falling into the trap of primarily attacking its adherents.
If the mocking and scrutiny was doubled in the face of Islamic intimidation, the Muslim bullies would be shown that the British are not afraid. Look at Israel - they have rockets exploding in their streets almost every week. Despite this, they remain democratic, defiant, and unafraid. When a bomb explodes they clean it up and continue as if nothing happened, showing that they will not be cowed or intimidated by violence.
| sum wrote: |
| If it takes bloodshed then we hold that over the muslims rather than the muslims holding it over us. Remember Muhammad`s claim that he had been made victorious through terror? It must be recognised that we are truly in a war situation. Islam even tells us – Dar Al_Harb. I would suggest that whatever force is necessary to control the muslims it should be used, even if bloodshed is required. The ball is in the muslims` court and if they resort to violence it should be returned in full and disproportionately heavy in order to protect our future. If they become proper citizens it would be fine but that us a pipe dream. The Koran, ahadith and Islam all prevent that. |
Exactly. The Koran, Ahadith, and Islam itself all prevent that. That is why we must attack the ideology instead of the people. Fighting and killing people only makes things worse, only gives them more justification for terrorism. You've seen them, they don't care who started what, only that they are fighing against the Kaffir. If we take away their lives, they will be replaced and come back at us twice as hard. If we attack their dignity and laugh at them, what are they left with?
| sum wrote: |
Do not forget that you are a kafir – najis – impure, unclean and best avoided.
sum |
The concept of loathing unbelievers is hardly exclusive to Islam. It's yet another reason I want to attack the belief itself, because without destroying the roots of the meme the conflict will never end.
_________________
The world holds two classes of men - intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence. - Abu’l‐Ala al Ma’arri |
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charleslemartel
Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Pardon me for butting in.
| Rat_bytes wrote: |
It's less about educating those people and more about educating the non-muslim population and those Muslims who might be sitting on the fence. |
I agree with you here.
| Rat_bytes wrote: |
| If my idea is implemented, all Islamic influence in the country would be discontinued except for a heavily regulated government-run mosque association. |
The moment there are attempts to regulate, there will be violence from Muslims. How do you propose to deal with that violence?
| Rat_bytes wrote: |
| There would be heavy scrutiny that all Islamic elements in the country would undergo, and nothing that was deemed to incite violence or hatred would be allowed past the borders. |
That would mean Quran will have to be banned. That would lead to a lot of violence from Muslims. How do you propose to deal with that violence?
| Rat_bytes wrote: |
| This is exactly what I am talking about - people are unwilling to utilize their freedom of speech because they are afraid of what the Muslims will do. It hasn't gotten to the point where people have realized that this is a permanent threat to their way of life that will not go away. They're still under the impression that if we're nice to the Muslims and avoid offending them, they'll decide to leave our culture alone. Hopefully this attitude will be eliminated as the problem worsens. |
Do you mean "as the violence increases"?
When people are "no longer under the impression that if we're nice to the Muslims and avoid offending them, they'll decide to leave our culture alone", there will be violence from both the sides as in a civil war. I am afraid of exactly such a scenario.
| Quote: |
| Unfortunately what you describe is the inevitable outcome of Islam in Britain regardless of the measures that are taken against it. No matter what we do, Muslim violence will increase. Is the answer to begin killing the simple, ignorant young footsoldiers that are brainwashed into their actions by older Muslims? I think that would make the problem immeasurably worse. The problem we are facing is not humans themselves, but an ideology created by humans that has been allowed to take over. We must focus our attack on the ideology instead of falling into the trap of primarily attacking its adherents. |
"We", I mean those who can focus their attack on the ideology, are already doing that. The ideology we are talking about is clearly an idiotology. It has survived so long only because of those foot soldiers who have been successfully eliminating the attacking ideologues. The wars are declared by the rulers, but the actual killings are done by foot soldiers only. To neutralize the rulers, foot soldiers must be dealt with successfully first. And remember, foot soldiers are bound by the fighting orders only and not by the notions of right or wrong. The US army was not supposed to bother if there actually were WMD in Iraq or not.
This is not to say that I am supporting violence as some preemptive measure. It is only that to me it seems inevitable.
| Quote: |
| If the mocking and scrutiny was doubled in the face of Islamic intimidation, the Muslim bullies would be shown that the British are not afraid. |
That is only a rhetoric. I am all for mocking and scrutiny, but the moment I think that it may lead to loss of my life, I would stfu; would you not?
| Quote: |
| Look at Israel - they have rockets exploding in their streets almost every week. Despite this, they remain democratic, defiant, and unafraid. When a bomb explodes they clean it up and continue as if nothing happened, showing that they will not be cowed or intimidated by violence. |
And look at the result; the rockets continue to explode in their street. The rockets let up only when Israeli army marches in the palestinian area and returns the favor in a stronger way. Then Hamas and Fateh start calling for ceasefire and peace.
| Quote: |
Exactly. The Koran, Ahadith, and Islam itself all prevent that. That is why we must attack the ideology instead of the people. Fighting and killing people only makes things worse, only gives them more justification for terrorism. You've seen them, they don't care who started what, only that they are fighing against the Kaffir. If we take away their lives, they will be replaced and come back at us twice as hard. If we attack their dignity and laugh at them, what are they left with? |
I am sorry but you are only half right. There are many fronts in this war and the enemy must be fought on all the fronts. If we attack their dignity and laugh at them openly, we would be killed. Want to try to prove otherwise?
| Quote: |
| The concept of loathing unbelievers is hardly exclusive to Islam. It's yet another reason I want to attack the belief itself, because without destroying the roots of the meme the conflict will never end. |
But the concept of killing unbelievers is exclusive to Islam in the present. As I said, the war must be fought on all the fronts. Attacking the belief itself is not going to work as an only measure. I remember Ahmed assuring me that there is a verse in Quran which says that Mecca will always be protected and kafirs will not be able to control it. I asked him to show me the verse but he could not at that time and promised me that he will when he finds it. Now, if his claim is true, go and annex Mecca. That will be a real attack on his belief.
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone
Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational? |
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sum
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 8527
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Rat_bytes
I agree with you about teaching the non-muslims about the danger of Islam but how do you go about it? The various media will not get involved. The government will not get involved. This is the problem. It is all about reaching the public at large but we are thwarted at every turn.
Your quote -
Is the answer to begin killing the simple, ignorant young footsoldiers that are brainwashed into their actions by older Muslims? I think that would make the problem immeasurably worse. The problem we are facing is not humans themselves, but an ideology created by humans that has been allowed to take over. We must focus our attack on the ideology instead of falling into the trap of primarily attacking its adherents.
I regard muslims as like a developing cancer. If you take the example of normal healthy lungs being subjected to years of cigarette smoke, cellular changes start to occur. The change is from normal into pre-cancerous cells. If the smoking continues these pre-cancerous cells become fully malignant. Once fully malignant there is no turning back. You can not take pity on them because they belong to you as they can not change back - it is irreversible. You can not regard them as valuable own grown body cells any more - they must be removed or you will die.
The pre-cancerous cells could be given the optimum conditions to revert back to healthy cells but if they do not then these must be removed as well.
Some so called moderate muslims may be described as pre-cancerous and given a chance. The full true muslims are the malignant cells that want to have total control until you are eliminated.
In this analogy, which I think is a fair one, it is clear what to do. The cancer cells must be met head on and "treated". Do not forget that the USA is only a few years behind Britain. I hope that the USA is taking note of what is happening in Britain and learns.
sum |
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