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Rat_bytes
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 539
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 Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Abdul wrote: |
thats all you got for fossils! They look basically like any apes, chimpanzees, gorilla we have today! to me that is a deception. |
| Abdul wrote: |
| (trust me i read a lot on NDE and it gives more proof that their is life after this then what evoluton claim we are just the body)? you can read it all here: http://www.near-death.com/ |
| Yohan wrote: |
| One is more successful in teaching apes to count than making these people believe in evolution. |
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The world holds two classes of men - intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence. - Abu’l‐Ala al Ma’arri |
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sword_of_truth
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
Posts: 255
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:21 am Post subject: |
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One very convincing example of evolution is that of horses.
I would guess you would already admit that some evolution does occur, at least on a small scale. It has been directly observed.
Let's just be less ambition and merely ask what kind of scale it occurs on.
Starting with horses. This will give you a hint.
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fhc/firstCM.htm
Here, we see the evolution of the horses hooves and more. Starting from something sort of rodent-like, we get the modern horse.
This is exactly the kind of thing you are asking for. A whole book can and has been written about horse fossils alone. And not just a small one. A giant tome.
What's the importance of evolution?
Well, for biologists today, they better not be thinking that God is just doing everything, unless he is only acting through the laws of physics and chemistry. I guarantee that will cloud their understanding of natural processes.
Furthermore, biology only makes sense in light of evolution. That's how you can understand it. Without evolution, it's mostly stamp-collecting. Evolution is a unifying force in biology.
Things like mudfish and lungfish are more interesting to me when I realize that they suggest possibilities for how fish could evolve into amphibians. They are not to be thought of as being the same as our own ancestors, but never the less show how life could plausibly bridge the gap.
Everything fits into the tree of life, and that is the strongest piece of evidence for evolution. If something failed to fit into that tree, evolution would be proven wrong. But out of the millions of species and fossils painstakingly and carefully studied by scientists today, none of them has failed to fit into the tree. Everything is dated at the right time and nothing is out of place. You don't find mammalian features in fish. Fish with nipples. That would disprove evolution. There are millions of potential ways to disprove evolution. Every fossil and every species studied MUST fit into this tree of life or evolution would be wrong. Evolution has survived this perilous test flawlessly. Not one violation has ever been found by a competent scientist. This could not be a coincidence. This tree is absolutely essential to biology. To rob biology of this is to rob of it of its very soul.
Biology or any scientific field is a big web of interdependant ideas. If you hurt part of it, you're going to end up hurting all of it.
Creationism is a mind-shrinking falsehood. To deprive children of the theory of evolution is to deprive them of the most essential part of biology and the understanding of all life.
Finally, the reputation of the biology community is at stake. If people don't trust biologists, then maybe they will not support research. It is very sad to see these scientists put so much hard work into their research, only to be slandered on spurious charges.
Finally, evolution is not the same thing as atheism. Evolution, as I understand it, just means that all life originated from single-celled organisms, and, over billions of years, developed into what we see today. It doesn't make any other claim. It doesn't claim there is no God, no life after death, etc. |
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Aksel, Ankersen
Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 272
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| abdul-rahman wrote: |
| and how do evolution explain near death experiences of over millions of individual who almost share the same experience coincidently. Is that just B.S. or the brain playing tricks on them even though they were out of their bodies (trust me i read a lot on NDE and it gives more proof that their is life after this then what evoluton claim we are just the body)? you can read it all here: http://www.near-death.com/ |
Theory of descent with modification doesn't say anything about life after death. That's simply beyond the scope of the theory.
Good example of transitional fossils (an entire continuum of transitional forms) is the Globigerina genus of foraminifera. These species show, for instance, a transition between lobate and spherical forms and between a single large pore and a vesicular texture, also an increase or decrease in the number of inernal chambers.
You can read about them here for instance.
_________________
"your pit of the hell fire will be reserved for you, and on that day, myself and your parents will be laughing at you, It's Showtime"
-Ahmed Bahgat to a schoolgirl who left Islam |
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abdul-rahman
Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| Aksel, Ankersen wrote: |
| abdul-rahman wrote: |
| and how do evolution explain near death experiences of over millions of individual who almost share the same experience coincidently. Is that just B.S. or the brain playing tricks on them even though they were out of their bodies (trust me i read a lot on NDE and it gives more proof that their is life after this then what evoluton claim we are just the body)? you can read it all here: http://www.near-death.com/ |
Theory of descent with modification doesn't say anything about life after death. That's simply beyond the scope of the theory.
Good example of transitional fossils (an entire continuum of transitional forms) is the Globigerina genus of foraminifera. These species show, for instance, a transition between lobate and spherical forms and between a single large pore and a vesicular texture, also an increase or decrease in the number of inernal chambers.
You can read about them here for instance. |
Okay again this is just theorizing what we already see in nature so that is not proof because i dont see any transition fossils anywhere in the pdf file. So stop giving me theorizing data and actual facts like transit fossils with photos. So, What I really want as proof is a museum depicting any transition fossils that supports evolution because i couldn't find any. Believe me that will be the best proof if you ask me. will be waiting for your reply. |
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abdul-rahman
Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| Yohan wrote: |
| One is more successful in teaching apes to count than making these people believe in evolution. |
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this is just a stupid and awkward comment. where is the proof in that? it is like saying one is more successful in teaching pigs fly then making these people believe in evolution. |
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Aksel, Ankersen
Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 272
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| abdul-rahman wrote: |
| Aksel, Ankersen wrote: |
| abdul-rahman wrote: |
| and how do evolution explain near death experiences of over millions of individual who almost share the same experience coincidently. Is that just B.S. or the brain playing tricks on them even though they were out of their bodies (trust me i read a lot on NDE and it gives more proof that their is life after this then what evoluton claim we are just the body)? you can read it all here: http://www.near-death.com/ |
Theory of descent with modification doesn't say anything about life after death. That's simply beyond the scope of the theory.
Good example of transitional fossils (an entire continuum of transitional forms) is the Globigerina genus of foraminifera. These species show, for instance, a transition between lobate and spherical forms and between a single large pore and a vesicular texture, also an increase or decrease in the number of inernal chambers.
You can read about them here for instance. |
Okay again this is just theorizing what we already see in nature so that is not proof because i dont see any transition fossils anywhere in the pdf file. So stop giving me theorizing data and actual facts like transit fossils with photos. So, What I really want as proof is a museum depicting any transition fossils that supports evolution because i couldn't find any. Believe me that will be the best proof if you ask me. will be waiting for your reply. |
It's not just theorizing, Abdul-Rahman, we can study the microfossils in rocks and find that the fossils in deeper older strata are empirically different to those in shallower younger strata with a series of intermediate morphs between the modern and progenitor form. I've done this myself. It's plain as day if you have the time and means to dissolve rock and sift for fossils.
Here's a photo of transitional forms in the foraminifera:
Also, you should read evowiki on transitionals: http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/List_of_creationist_arguments#Transitional_fossils
_________________
"your pit of the hell fire will be reserved for you, and on that day, myself and your parents will be laughing at you, It's Showtime"
-Ahmed Bahgat to a schoolgirl who left Islam |
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Always_Faithful
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 2024
Location: Location: Location
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| abdul-rahman wrote: |
| the thing about fossils i was talking about was actual skeleton proof that that their was transaction from one species from another through evolution but i don't see that from your link. all it is doing is theorizing with no actual data or fossils to back it up. Is that the best you have got? I maybe asking for too much but theorizing with out any actual data or hard evidence is hardly any proof. |
Here's a chance for you to educate yourself on this matter, if you have the honesty to do so. Look up Caudipteryx, and tell me why you think it is a significant example of transitioning.
| Quote: |
| anyway, what i want to know is why are you so strict on defending evolution? what do you get out of it? Since to you this life is by chance and we live only once to die forever and ever. this is hardly the teaching i want to teach my children as it will truely frighten them if they were able to understand what it means. |
Chance only describes genetic drift, and that's a very small aspect of evolution. Why does evolution 'frighten' you, and, moreover, why should such small-mindedness on your part matter when the theory is so concrete regardless?
Evolution matters because it is the foundation of much understanding in modern biology.
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| and how do evolution explain near death experiences of over millions of individual who almost share the same experience coincidently. |
It doesn't. Scrunity, however, does; NDEs are very poorly evidenced indeed.
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| Is that just B.S. or the brain playing tricks on them even though they were out of their bodies |
For the most part, yes. Strange coincidence, it is, that the vast majority of NDEs occur when the brain is starved of oxygen and is not functioning properly.
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| (trust me i read a lot on NDE and it gives more proof that their is life after this then what evoluton claim we are just the body)? |
Evolution 'claims' no such thing.
_________________
A destructive man helps to naturally select a better society; an ignorant man does nothing but drag society down: Innocence is worse than evil. |
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abdul-rahman
Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: |
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thanks so much! that is what i was exactly looking for: a collection of questions and answers!
anyway, you still didn't product a single evidence from a public museum that shows any transition fossils. So what are you waiting for unless no museum in the world carries a single one?
BTW, from your replies and others i get your do not believe in an after life? is that true or that is just meaningless to you?   |
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Always_Faithful
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 2024
Location: Location: Location
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| abdul-rahman wrote: |
| anyway, you still didn't product a single evidence from a public museum that shows any transition fossils. So what are you waiting for unless no museum in the world carries a single one? |
I gave you the example of caudipteryx, and asked that you take some initiative and research for yourself why it may be considered a transitional organism. Do you have any intention of doing so, or do you wish all the answers to be simply spoon-fed to you?
According to a brief search, the Hong Kong Science Museum has a fossil of a caudipteryx specimin.
| Quote: |
| BTW, from your replies and others i get your do not believe in an after life? is that true or that is just meaningless to you? |
I personally do not believe in an afterlife, because all of our identity can be mapped to our biology. This question is, however, just a red herring.
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A destructive man helps to naturally select a better society; an ignorant man does nothing but drag society down: Innocence is worse than evil. |
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comet4
Joined: 26 Apr 2008
Posts: 6
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| abdul-rahman wrote: |
the thing about fossils i was talking about was actual skeleton proof that that their was transaction from one species from another through evolution but i don't see that from your link. all it is doing is theorizing with no actual data or fossils to back it up. Is that the best you have got? I maybe asking for too much but theorizing with out any actual data or hard evidence is hardly any proof.
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Actually, every living thing is a transitional species since evolution never stops. I know what you are talking about though.
Dinosaur to bird:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeopteryx
Fish to amphibian:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik |
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Popeye
Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 504
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| abdul-rahman wrote: |
BTW, from your replies and others i get your do not believe in an after life? is that true or that is just meaningless to you? |
Here is another good site:
http://www.myspace.com/roiscience
And the afterlife?
Myself, I am ok with being a meaningless spec , a single transient spark which extinguishes itself after a fleeting moment in this universe.
I am ok with my existence not affecting anyone but myself, and those directly near me. I am ok with there being no plan, no purpose, and no rhyme or measure which defines my existence.
I'm ok with my existence being an accident of chance, and my demise being the same.
I will probably go to the same place I was before I was born, how about you ...where do you think you are going?
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Surtout, pas trop de zele. |
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THHuxley_redux
Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1248
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| abdul-rahman wrote: |
| the thing about fossils i was talking about was actual skeleton proof that that their was transaction from one species from another through evolution but i don't see that from your link. |
Oh... you don't need fossils to see that. You can see that in living animals. Go read about ring species. We have documented examples of the transition from one species to another in which all the intermediates can still be found alive.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/05/2/l_052_05.html
But as far as I can tell, you did not take the time to actually read the link. Am I to understand that you are just pretending to want evidence? Because I will not waste my time if you are just pretending.
| abdul-rhaman wrote: |
| all it is doing is theorizing with no actual data or fossils to back it up. Is that the best you have got? I maybe asking for too much but theorizing with out any actual data or hard evidence is hardly any proof. |
You shoul actually read the link. You will find your actual fossils and data there. Hundreds of examples.
| abdul-rhaman wrote: |
| anyway, what i want to know is why are you so strict on defending evolution? |
Other than the fact that truth deserves to be defended against falsehood?
| abdul-rhaman wrote: |
| what do you get out of it? Since to you this life is by chance and we live only once to die forever and ever. this is hardly the teaching i want to teach my children as it will truely frighten them if they were able to understand what it means. |
Then it is a good thing evolution doesn't teach that. You can stop lying to them now.
| abdul-rhama wrote: |
| and how do evolution explain near death experiences of over millions of individual who almost share the same experience coincidently. Is that just B.S. or the brain playing tricks on them even though they were out of their bodies (trust me i read a lot on NDE and it gives more proof that their is life after this then what evoluton claim we are just the body)? you can read it all here: http://www.near-death.com/ |
Evolution doesn't explain NDEs. Evolution does not even care about them.
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Nullius In Verba |
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charleslemartel
Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Some evolution theory questions? |
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| THHuxley_redux wrote: |
You should probably start with Kathleen Hunt's still excellent "Transitional Fossils FAQ." It is more than ten years old, but still a fabulous resource. It should keep you busy for hours. Then if you have follow up questions, I'll be happy to help.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html |
Thanks a lot for the link. I will come back to you after I think I have understood the issue.
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone
Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational? |
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charleslemartel
Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Always_Faithful wrote: |
For the most part, yes. Strange coincidence, it is, that the vast majority of NDEs occur when the brain is starved of oxygen and is not functioning properly. |
Of course!!!
NDE's are bound to occur when the brain is starved of oxygen and is not functioning properly. That is why they are called NDEs. So what is your point?
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone
Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational? |
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charleslemartel
Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| abdul-rahman wrote: |
thanks so much! that is what i was exactly looking for: a collection of questions and answers!
anyway, you still didn't product a single evidence from a public museum that shows any transition fossils. So what are you waiting for unless no museum in the world carries a single one?
BTW, from your replies and others i get your do not believe in an after life? is that true or that is just meaningless to you? |
To be honest, I do believe in after life of some sort. However, I realize that I do not have sufficient evidence for this belief. I am also prepared to relinquish this belief of mine.
Unfortunately for me, I also realize that I am not likely to get any evidence either for or against this belief of mine.
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone
Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational? |
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