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Syinfia
Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 20
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 Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: Can women actually divorce in islam? |
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I have a question,
I hear much muslims talking about khula,
saying that islam is good because it allows women to divorce while other religions don't give her that right,
but where in the quran does it actually talk about khula?!
There's a chapter, Al-talaaq, specificly made for the male divorce, but unless i missed it or didn't read well, there is no verse saying that a woman can get a divorce by herself contrary to what muslims claim.
So can women actually divorce or was khula invented by the muslims themselves?
If a woman is allowed to divorce, in which hadith or verse is this written?
Please answer honestly and don't let you hatred of islam blind you !
(ps: i know that i'm asking much questions, i hope i'm not annoying anyone, i'm just fully discovering islam now  )
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L'idiot ne veux pas savoir." |
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yeezevee
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 17109
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I have a question,
I hear much muslims talking about khula,
saying that islam is good because it allows women to divorce while other religions don't give her that right,
but where in the quran does it actually talk about khula?!
(ps: i know that i'm asking much questions, i hope i'm not annoying anyone, i'm just fully discovering islam now ) says Syinfia |
.. No.. No YOU ARE NOT ANNOYING any one dear Syinfia., That is how we all learn from each other Yes .. that is true dear Syinfia., Islam does allow women to divorce but other religions also DO NOT STOP WOMEN to get divorce..
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adith - Musnad Ahmad, Narrated Abu Huraira, r.a.
The Prophet said, "Those who seek Khula without any reason are hypocrites."
Hadith - Sunan Abu Dawud, Narrated Thoban (RA)
The Prophet said: "If any woman asks her husband for divorce without some strong reason, the odor of Paradise will be forbidden to her."
The Noble Qur'an - 2:229
...Then if you fear that they would not be able to keep the limits ordained by Allâh, then there is no sin on either of them if she gives back (the Mahr or a part of it) for her Al-Khul' (divorce).
Hadith - Sahih Al-Bukharî, Vol. 7, Hadîth No. 197
Narrated Ibn 'Abbâs : The wife of Thabît bin Qais came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Messenger! I do not blame Thabît for defects in his character or his religion, but I, being a Muslim, dislike to behave in an un-Islâmic manner (if I remain with him)." On that Allah's Messenger said (to her), "Will you give back the garden which your husband has given you (as Mahr)?" She said, "Yes." Then the Prophet said to Thabît, "O Thabît! Accept your garden, and divorce her once." |
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The iddah
(The waiting period during which time the husband must still maintain the divorced wife)
Fataawa al-Talaaq by Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 1/286.
If the woman who has been divorced by khula’ is pregnant then her ‘iddah lasts until she gives birth, according to scholarly consensus. Al-Mughni, 11/227.
But if she is not pregnant, the scholars differed concerning her ‘iddah. Most of the scholars said that she should wait for three menstrual cycles, because of the general meaning of the ayah (interpretation of the meaning):
“And divorced women shall wait (as regards their marriage) for three menstrual periods” [al-Baqarah 2:228]
But the correct view is that it is sufficient for a woman divorced by khula’ to wait for one menstrual cycle, because the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told the wife of Thaabit ibn Qays, when she divorced him by khula’, to wait out the ‘iddah for one menstrual cycle. (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1185; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi, 946). This hadeeth refers specifically to khula’ divorce whereas the aayah quoted above speaks of divorce in general. But if she waits out an ‘iddah of three menstrual cycles that will be more complete and will be on the safe side, and will avoid an area of scholarly dispute, as some scholars say that she should wait for three menstrual cycles, based on the ayah quoted. |
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That is ALL TRUE .. but there are other "LITIGATIONS" that often makes divorced women life miserable and she may loose her life itself.. forget khula.. But what is the BIG DEAL ABOUT THIS dear Syinfia ??.,the Arabian Pagan women in PRE-ISLAMIC PERIOD also used to get divorce without any problems that Mr. PBUH created after Islam..
with best wishes
yeezevee |
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katlike
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 4015
Location: If I told you, it would be a lame game of hide and seek.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| saying that islam is good because it allows women to divorce while other religions don't give her that right, |
Just curious but what other religion does not allow a women a divorce?
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| There's a chapter, Al-talaaq, specificly made for the male divorce, but unless i missed it or didn't read well, there is no verse saying that a woman can get a divorce by herself contrary to what muslims claim. |
Read up on how islamic divorce goes. Very easy for the man, (say, "taliq" three times) not so easy for the woman (prove why you deserve the divorce, get the man to agree and then get a judge to agree), and then read what happens to the children of an islamic divorce. Read the koran and adhadiths very carefully, word for word, joint custody and visitation and co-parenting are never mentioned. Not once. How wonderful of islam to "allow" women divorce.... 
Let's add in, islam allows for child brides...silence is an affirmation, but the price of divorce is laid at the women's feet.
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 FYI~ It takes glass one million years to decompose, which means it never wears out and can be recycled an infinite amount of times. |
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Syinfia
Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| katlike wrote: |
saying that islam is good because it allows women to divorce while other religions don't give her that right,
Just curious but what other religion does not allow a women a divorce? |
Well The muslims i talked to say that in christianity she can't divorce (unless he cheated on her) and if she remarries she's an adulteress. But, i just went to look up for the verse saying so and i found out that it is the same when it comes to men too! So they're actually equal in christianity when it comes to divorce, i didn't make research about how it works for jews, buti guess that these muslims were wrong when they told me that she couldn't divorce...so, she actually can.
| katlike wrote: |
Read up on how islamic divorce goes. Very easy for the man, (say, "taliq" three times) not so easy for the woman (prove why you deserve the divorce, get the man to agree and then get a judge to agree), and then read what happens to the children of an islamic divorce. Read the koran and adhadiths very carefully, word for word, joint custody and visitation and co-parenting are never mentioned. Not once. How wonderful of islam to "allow" women divorce....
Let's add in, islam allows for child brides...silence is an affirmation, but the price of divorce is laid at the women's feet. |
Well the sheik in the famous website of islam "question & answers" ( http://www.islam-qa.com/) said that simply not liking your husband or finding him ugly was a valid reason :/ so it ain't that bad after all, here is the article : http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/1859/khula
As for the custody, in another article he says that as long as the children are little they automatically go to the mother because she' more able to care about them, but when they grow up they can choose where they go. I personally don't see anything wrong with this : http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/5234/custody
But i don't understand why she doesn't have the right for custody if she remarries though.
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ixolite
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 12939
Location: land of pork and beer
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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The question is: why marry someone one doesn't like or finds ugly in the first place? 
No, women can't easily divorce in Islam. Men can divorce a woman by simply stating talaq 3 times, women have to go before a court to beg for divorce. They can only ask for divorce in certain circumstances, for instance if the husband is infertile and they are in danger of losing their dowry when divorced. After divorce they don't have the right for alimony like we have in the west:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shah_Bano_case
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| As for the custody, in another article he says that as long as the children are little they automatically go to the mother because she' more able to care about them, but when they grow up they can choose where they go. I personally don't see anything wrong with this : http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/5234/custody |
"Grown up" means 7 years of age.
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| But i don't understand why she doesn't have the right for custody if she remarries though. |
Most of the time she doesn't get custody if she is divorced, remarried or not. In Islam the children are the fathers, as with the dowry the reproductive system of the woman is bought. Unlike in the west, in Islam the father has custody.
Here you can see a documentary about divorce in Iran:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54227
That's the sad reality for musilmahs.
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Mughal
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1211
Location: Islamabad,Pakistan Glasgow,Scotland
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:41 am Post subject: |
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There is no doubt that people can get divorce but the whole issue revolves around politics because it is about law.
If people could live on their own, there could not be any need for marriage and divorce laws.
Since people are interdependent in various ways hence they organised into families, clans and tribes, kingdoms and countries etc as communities and when they organised as communities, there came about the need for having rules to run the relationships as smoothly as possible hence came about tribal customs and current rules and laws.
Each of us needs and place to live in and a place to earn a living from. Hence people divided lands and resources or jobs between themselves and each passed down the generations whatever they earned or gathered in form of inheritance etc. Hence evolved family laws.
Men and women were assigned roles and related rules and laws for purpose of regulating the societies. Since men were the heads of their families and the tribes or kingdoms and countries so most laws they made favoured men. Since women get pregnant and give birth to babies men feared they would be left high and dry if women were given full control over themselves. So they made sure that women did not run away with their babies. Hence men could divorce women if they wished but not other way round.
The issue of marriage and divorce is not a simple one because it has many aspects and each is so tangled up. This is why we do not have any law even today that could satisfy both parties. Religions are only under attack because they claim divine origin for their laws yet are as stupid in some cases as any law by any man.
LINK
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16495
LINK
http://www.ourdialogue.com/d16.htm
LINK
http://lawvisionpk.com/public/tableofcontents.php?fid=1018
LINK
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All the best from Mughal at http://www.religionandsecularism.gq.nu/favorite_links.html |
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establishtruth
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 293
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Mughal wrote: |
There is no doubt that people can get divorce but the whole issue revolves around politics because it is about law.
If people could live on their own, there could not be any need for marriage and divorce laws.
Since people are interdependent in various ways hence they organised into families, clans and tribes, kingdoms and countries etc as communities and when they organised as communities, there came about the need for having rules to run the relationships as smoothly as possible hence came about tribal customs and current rules and laws.
Each of us needs and place to live in and a place to earn a living from. Hence people divided lands and resources or jobs between themselves and each passed down the generations whatever they earned or gathered in form of inheritance etc. Hence evolved family laws.
Men and women were assigned roles and related rules and laws for purpose of regulating the societies. Since men were the heads of their families and the tribes or kingdoms and countries so most laws they made favoured men. Since women get pregnant and give birth to babies men feared they would be left high and dry if women were given full control over themselves. So they made sure that women did not run away with their babies. Hence men could divorce women if they wished but not other way round.
The issue of marriage and divorce is not a simple one because it has many aspects and each is so tangled up. This is why we do not have any law even today that could satisfy both parties. Religions are only under attack because they claim divine origin for their laws yet are as stupid in some cases as any law by any man.
LINK
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16495
LINK
http://www.ourdialogue.com/d16.htm
LINK
http://lawvisionpk.com/public/tableofcontents.php?fid=1018
LINK |
Please do not try to confuse people.
The fact of the matter is that a Muslim man can utter talaq three times when he wishes and he gets a divorce. He does not have to go a court, appear before a judge and his wife's opinion does not count. No one can question him why he had divorced his wife.
But if a Muslim woman wants a divorce she has to take all the trouble to go to the court, appear before a MALE judge and give a valid reason for divorce. If the judge is satisfied with her reason and her husband agrees to free her then she would get a divorce.
Simply double standards to the disadvantage of a Muslim woman. |
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Mughal
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1211
Location: Islamabad,Pakistan Glasgow,Scotland
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| establishtruth wrote: |
| Mughal wrote: |
There is no doubt that people can get divorce but the whole issue revolves around politics because it is about law.
If people could live on their own, there could not be any need for marriage and divorce laws.
Since people are interdependent in various ways hence they organised into families, clans and tribes, kingdoms and countries etc as communities and when they organised as communities, there came about the need for having rules to run the relationships as smoothly as possible hence came about tribal customs and current rules and laws.
Each of us needs and place to live in and a place to earn a living from. Hence people divided lands and resources or jobs between themselves and each passed down the generations whatever they earned or gathered in form of inheritance etc. Hence evolved family laws.
Men and women were assigned roles and related rules and laws for purpose of regulating the societies. Since men were the heads of their families and the tribes or kingdoms and countries so most laws they made favoured men. Since women get pregnant and give birth to babies men feared they would be left high and dry if women were given full control over themselves. So they made sure that women did not run away with their babies. Hence men could divorce women if they wished but not other way round.
The issue of marriage and divorce is not a simple one because it has many aspects and each is so tangled up. This is why we do not have any law even today that could satisfy both parties. Religions are only under attack because they claim divine origin for their laws yet are as stupid in some cases as any law by any man.
LINK
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16495
LINK
http://www.ourdialogue.com/d16.htm
LINK
http://lawvisionpk.com/public/tableofcontents.php?fid=1018
LINK |
Please do not try to confuse people.
The fact of the matter is that a Muslim man can utter talaq three times when he wishes and he gets a divorce. He does not have to go a court, appear before a judge and his wife's opinion does not count. No one can question him why he had divorced his wife.
But if a Muslim woman wants a divorce she has to take all the trouble to go to the court, appear before a MALE judge and give a valid reason for divorce. If the judge is satisfied with her reason and her husband agrees to free her then she would get a divorce.
Simply double standards to the disadvantage of a Muslim woman. |
Well that is the point dear establishtruth that islam is a false religion because it does not offer anything perfect to solve human problems.
You have rightly pointed out that muslim can divorce a women by simply pronouncing talaaq for his wife. No courts no forms to fill.
It only goes to show how stupid islam is because it gives no proof to the women that she is actually a divorced woman so that she could go ahead and marry again if she so wishes.
Let me clarify the point a bit more for you. let say a man named A married a muslim lady B. He then gives her the irrevocable talaaq but she has no proof of that other than her own words that she has been divorced by her husband A. Now she gets married to another man but let say that A changes his mind and wants her back so he says that he has not divorced her, so now what proof B has that she was actually divorced by A? This is how stupid are the author of islam and its followers.
This is what shariah is all about of which muslims are so proud.
So I was explaining why we need laws and those laws need to be clear enough that such situation do not arise if at all possible. We know we are not living in a perfect world but we do not need rules that make life yet more hell than it already is.
regards and
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establishtruth
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 293
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| Mughal wrote: |
Well that is the point dear establishtruth that islam is a false religion because it does not offer anything perfect to solve human problems.
You have rightly pointed out that muslim can divorce a women by simply pronouncing talaaq for his wife. No courts no forms to fill.
It only goes to show how stupid islam is because it gives no proof to the women that she is actually a divorced woman so that she could go ahead and marry again if she so wishes.
Let me clarify the point a bit more for you. let say a man named A married a muslim lady B. He then gives her the irrevocable talaaq but she has no proof of that other than her own words that she has been divorced by her husband A. Now she gets married to another man but let say that A changes his mind and wants her back so he says that he has not divorced her, so now what proof B has that she was actually divorced by A? This is how stupid are the author of islam and its followers.
This is what shariah is all about of which muslims are so proud.
So I was explaining why we need laws and those laws need to be clear enough that such situation do not arise if at all possible. We know we are not living in a perfect world but we do not need rules that make life yet more hell than it already is.
regards and |
Thanks for your clarification.
I agree with the points that you have mentioned.
Laws should be made in such a way that it is fair to everyone. |
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Syinfia
Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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But in Ixolite's video, when it talks about the first couple (the woman says that she can't stand her husband anymore, but she doesn't want to iniciate a divorce by herself because she knows that she will lose her rights for compensation) the man did iniciate the divorce, but despite that they're still going to that man in his office. And the second woman (who complains that her husband has sexual problems) wants to divorce and she goes to the same place the man goes too.
So yeah, doesn't it prove that they both have to go to that office and that such a situation mughal mentionned will never happen?
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L'idiot ne veux pas savoir." |
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Mughal
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1211
Location: Islamabad,Pakistan Glasgow,Scotland
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katlike
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 4015
Location: If I told you, it would be a lame game of hide and seek.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:16 am Post subject: |
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Syinfia,
I am uncertain what you are referring to...I did not see any video links in ixolite's post. I do not see any video links. She gave us some links to articles that are very relevent to the topic at hand. Have I missed something?
Sharia law says he can divorce her by simply stating "taliq" 3 times, the woman, however has a much harder time with the process, and sharia law ensures she has much more to lose during the process. How is that a fair process?
Katlike
_________________
[/islam].
FYI~ It takes glass one million years to decompose, which means it never wears out and can be recycled an infinite amount of times. |
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Syinfia
Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 20
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katlike
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 4015
Location: If I told you, it would be a lame game of hide and seek.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: |
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Your links do take me to a video. Ixolite's did not.
What is it your trying to say? Divorce in islam is good? Divorce outside of islam is good? I just do not understand the point you are trying to make.
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[/islam].
FYI~ It takes glass one million years to decompose, which means it never wears out and can be recycled an infinite amount of times. |
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Mughal
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1211
Location: Islamabad,Pakistan Glasgow,Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:54 am Post subject: |
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Dear Syinfia, islam is not a straight forward religion rather it is full of contradictions and therefore confusing.
You may know that in islam there are so many sects and there are so many different so called islamic shariah laws as per each of the sects in islam.
There is fiqh al jafaria for shias and four different schools of fiqh amongst sunnies yet some sunnies remain nonconformist such as jamaate islami, uk islamic mission, islamic propagation centre, ahlul ahaadith, wahabies, salafies etc. The other are known as quranites, the submitters, free minds and so on and so forth.
The sunnies are the largest group or sect amongst muslims and they follow fiqhs of four imaams. All these imaams say that when a husband pronounces talaaq for his wife, it is talaaq regardless of writing or witnesses. In other words it is not necessary according to these imams tfor the husband to call for witness and write down talaaq for the wife for her proof of divorce.
However the shia imaams differ. According to them talaaq can only be valid if a wife is given talaaq officially ie in front of two witness and in writing.
Since a great majority of muslims are sunnies and it is they who cause wives anguish by not divorcing them properly hence the problem.
I personally think that fiqh jaferia in this case is more reasonable as compared to sunni fiqhs or shariah laws.
I hope this clarifies the situation for you.
regards and
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