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LCD
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 3385
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 Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| BBG wrote: |
| ixolite wrote: |
| BBG wrote: |
| Acts of Thomas in bible |
Apocrypha, not in the bible. |
If i am not mistaken, Apocrypha means not accepted by church and christians as authentic? |
Notice how they ran like Muslims!
Bible Supports slaver! I win! Hide hide hide!
Bull |
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mrcommonsensenow
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 1711
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:19 am Post subject: |
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[quote="LCD"]
| ixolite wrote: |
| LCD wrote: |
Assumption: #1:
Regulating a behavior shows approval |
| Quote: |
Your blood god showed approval of the possession of humans in the 10 commandments.
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| YHVH wrote: |
Exodus 20:17 You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
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Allright. Show me the Origional Hebrew. My God is NOT a blood god. Your essentially an athiest HATER.
I notice, you didn't respond to any of my posts. How SELECTIVE of you.
The SCIENCE GOD considers everyone a monkey and our lives no different than a common house fly or fish. |
That’s the second time this month I’ve seen a Christian defer to the “Original Hebrew”.
Note to self - If I ever start to believe in God, become a Jew. 
_________________
It is not logical to believe that the same God who has allegedly endowed us with sense, reasons, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Last edited by mrcommonsensenow on Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LCD
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 3385
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, once again you snip at me without dealign with any of my points.
How muslim of you. And while your turning Jewish, maybe you could pick up a personality and a brain while your at it.
So here are my questions, which you refuse to acknowledge in my points.
I said there was a system of "Voluntary" slavery which had rules outlined in the Torah, in Deuteronomy.
Which as i clearly showed though the bible uses the term slavery, it does not remotely connonotate to the the 13th to 20th century interpretation where men were "kidnapped" from their lands and sold.
The bible makes that quite clear that you can't kidnap someone which would involve the connotation of slavery that you are claiming the Hebrew version is. The Hebrew version is "voluntary." IT involves a 6 year cap. It has rules about behavior and abuse, and it was a method of apprentice ship and income.
You're trying to apply a 13th century connotation of a BC time frame.
Voluntary servitude (Bonded "Indemniture is not Kidnapping, mutilation, abuse torture Genocide that is connected to Blacks. What Blacks had a 6 year cap? NONE. What blacks went free if they were abused. What blacks were treated as members of the family and could inherit the master's wealth. What blacks WERE paid a regular wage?
Your trying to say that "voluntary" slavery is the same as involuntary slavery--which thus far you haven't remotely shown. The only thing you did was sCREAM "WHO would voluntarily be a slave?!!!! showing clearly how ignorant you are and also how muslim since you walked away from the post every time you couldn't answer anything. Good luck! |
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Kalu
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1874
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Any God who build Hell and enjoy the eternal torture of His own creatures is not real God at all and is a fake manufactured God .
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Kalu Mahalingam |
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mrcommonsensenow
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 1711
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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You are 100% correct Kalu. Hell is incompatible with the notion of a just and merciful God.
_________________
It is not logical to believe that the same God who has allegedly endowed us with sense, reasons, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. |
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LCD
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 3385
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| mrcommonsensenow wrote: |
| You are 100% correct Kalu. Hell is incompatible with the notion of a just and merciful God. |
WOW! Way to change the subject! so you can't actually deal with my points, so you sit and then change the subject to hell. HOW HONEST of you?
And once again, how muslim. |
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ixolite
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 12939
Location: land of pork and beer
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| LCD wrote: |
| LCD wrote: |
Assumption: #1:
Regulating a behavior shows approval |
| Quote: |
Your blood god showed approval of the possession of humans in the 10 commandments.
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| YHVH wrote: |
Exodus 20:17 You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
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Allright. Show me the Origional Hebrew. My God is NOT a blood god. |
Hahahaha! Pathetic. Those are the words of YOUR god. Squirming doesn't change that. 
Now who's behaving like a mohammedan, fundie? 
| LCD wrote: |
| Notice how they ran like Muslims! |
| LCD wrote: |
| Your essentially an athiest HATER. |
Quoting your god does make me "an athiest HATER"? Are you sure you're not a mohammedan? You sure sound like one.
| LCD wrote: |
| I notice, you didn't respond to any of my posts. How SELECTIVE of you. |
Excuse me? Where is the above from I quoted? Is that from a post of yours or not?
If you mean this post, it's as pathetic as your "hebrew"-excuse:
- none of the passages you quoted forbids slavery, instead slavery is accepted as a fact
- the "restrictions" (i.e. release after 6 years) only apply to Jews, NOT to anyone else
- the "treat them well" excuse doesn't cut it, depriving someone of his/her freedom is the exact oposite of treating someone well
Your excuses are disgusting. 
P.S. If the bible can only be understood in the orginal hebrew, what does it do outside of a hebrew speaking community? 
_________________
</islam>
"Never argue with idiots. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Goldthwait H. Dorr |
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Kalu
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1874
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| mrcommonsensenow wrote: |
| You are 100% correct Kalu. Hell is incompatible with the notion of a just and merciful God. |
One cannot be just and merciful at the same time. some times justice require punishement and a Punishing God is not God either .
_________________
Kalu Mahalingam |
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LCD
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 3385
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
If you mean this post, it's as pathetic as your "hebrew"-excuse:
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1. I already answwered you on this, but i'll answer you again ,and I'll make myself clear i said refer to the origional hebrew should there be a choice.
I also Said that "Voluntary slavery" is not involuntary slavery" a point you keep conveniently ingorning in favor of the cathphrase the bible approved and condones slavery.
If the bible condoned of slavery, there would be no story of Joseph nor the hebrew Captivity, NOR the story of the Hebrews as SLAVES in Egypt!
Which is not painted as a pretty picture at all.
Your essential claim is that the Old Testement shows NO distinction between the strocities heeped upon the Jews and the practices of the Jews. That's completely untrue.
Now, I've already pointed out to you, that your notions of "involuntary slavery" ARE on par with Kidnapping and loss of Freedom.
I've also poined out to you, that The Hebrews in the Leviticus Law Code outlines of system of "Voluntary Slavery" that includes a 6 year cap and a code of condust, and that despite your objections to the 13th to modern century notionbs of Salvery, the Hebrew system of voluntary Servitude, which included "choice" and voluntary action were NOT involuntary what so ever. I've shown you that. You keep ignoring that, to your own peril, I also SHOWED you, quite clearly that is wasn't the same, but you keep ignoring it.
| Quote: |
- none of the passages you quoted forbids slavery, instead slavery is accepted as a fact
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A FACT among other nations which automatically enslaved millions to fuel their economy. NOT among the hebrews. It does not accept it as okay, it accepts it as Wrong, and immoral to the Hebrews. That's clearly outlined in the bible, otherwise the Bible would clearly say to the effect, that SLAVERY is correct. It does not. It allows a system of "volunary servitude" and has numerous passages about stealing. kidnapping ETC.
Accepts as a Fact? What does that even mean? It accepts that it's wrong, and that the Hebrews are different, and the quotes, you claimed that i quoted show as you put it "nothing" is baloney, it shows "involuntary slavery" to be immoral. Reread my post. It also shows what happened to the Hebrews under Pharoah, a clear distinction of Slavery being wrong.
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- the "restrictions" (i.e. release after 6 years) only apply to Jews, NOT to anyone else
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Absolutely correct. and i'm defending the Bible, not the code of Hammurabi. Your point is? apparently you like to spout off idiocy.
I already showed yout he "release after six years as a moral Code, or ISreal. Yep, I never said this was widespread and believed by all. No sir, i presented this quite clearly as an aspect of Judiasm, and that is was humane and a system of "voluntary servitude." Yep I did. Wow, you can read. You are so smary? you want a cookie?
| Quote: |
- the "treat them well" excuse doesn't cut it,
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not an excuse at all, it's the LAW when it comes to the jews. Not an excuse. and i've already SHOWN you it was entered into voluntarily by people and backed up with rules by the Hebrew Law Code, by Hebrews, and not by anyone else. I never said this was a widespread law to anyone but the Hebrews. You really need to learn to read.
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depriving someone of his/her freedom is the exact oposite of treating someone well
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Yep, and if it was "involutary" you'd have a point, but as it is, i've already stated that I'm talking about Jewish Practices, not Egyptoian, Hatiaian ethiopian or anyone else. Leviticus clearly states that Kidnappers are evil and that clearly indicates that "Voluntary servitude" is not the same as "involnutary Slavery." You done yet?
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Your excuses are disgusting.
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I made no exucses. I showed you the difference and the idea. You simply have chosen to ignore it in order to Rant. I notice you've included no quotes in your rant, just the typical namecalling and screaming and yelling. Once again., I'm going to ask you to rereadwhat i wronte. It often helps to read things twice. Maybe you'll see how irrational and confused you are. Good luck.
| Quote: |
P.S. If the bible can only be understood in the orginal hebrew, what does it do outside of a hebrew speaking community?
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you know, your question is fair, and my statement earlier was unclear so let me clear it up for you?
Allright. Here it is. "You see the word "Slave" and fly off the handle, as always assuming that the word Slave or Slavery automatically meed "involuntary loss of freedom." I stated, and i will clear it up here, that the hebrews, (who i'll repeat are the only group i'm interested in until the statements of the man i believe to be the messiah." practiced a system of "voluntary servitude" that was ingrained in their Law Code and followed strict guidelines. This system, involved a choice by7 the person who undertook the servitude. This choice to be a "voluntary servant" followed the rules of the Hebrew Law Code, and that Law Code had a 6 year Cap, but at no point did anyone deprive anyone of freedom, Involuntarily.. Nope, it was a choice. I've made that very clear. Now when it comes to your moral outrage over slavery, all i have to say it that I'm only talking about the Hebrews. I talk of no other group. The fact that some christian participated in SLAVERY in the 13th through the late 1900's is regrettable, but is a failure of christians on an individual level, NOT GOD, nor of the Christian religion. Since the letters of Paul and others clearly state that all are equal under the messiah.
I stated that in order to clarify, I will rely on the origional hebrew and i defer to it, since the word "Slave" or "Slavery" clearly makes you irrational and quite uncontrollable.
But AS i've shown as i've also given you evidence of. Since leviticus clearly outlines the LAW and rules governing, get ready, "Voluntary servitude" I've already shown you it was different, When you choose to actually READ my post and the bible, then you'll have an argument.
I've made it clear, it's now up to you to tone your irrationality down. As the Torah clearly outlines that nobody who entered "voluntary servitude" was deprived of freedom.
And when you learn to read, you'll understand things instead of spouting of like a child. |
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ixolite
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 12939
Location: land of pork and beer
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| LCD wrote: |
| Quote: |
If you mean this post, it's as pathetic as your "hebrew"-excuse:
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1. I already answwered you on this, but i'll answer you again ,and I'll make myself clear i said refer to the origional hebrew should there be a choice.
I also Said that "Voluntary slavery" is not involuntary slavery" a point you keep conveniently ingorning in favor of the cathphrase the bible approved and condones slavery. |
Slavery per definitionem can't be voluntary, as it takes the freedom away from someone.
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| If the bible condoned of slavery, there would be no story of Joseph nor the hebrew Captivity, NOR the story of the Hebrews as SLAVES in Egypt! |
Wut? 
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| Your essential claim is that the Old Testement shows NO distinction between the strocities heeped upon the Jews and the practices of the Jews. |
Wut?
| Quote: |
| I've also poined out to you, that The Hebrews in the Leviticus Law Code outlines of system of "Voluntary Slavery" that includes a 6 year cap and a code of condust, and that despite your objections to the 13th to modern century notionbs of Salvery, the Hebrew system of voluntary Servitude, which included "choice" and voluntary action were NOT involuntary what so ever. I've shown you that. You keep ignoring that, to your own peril, I also SHOWED you, quite clearly that is wasn't the same, but you keep ignoring it. |
This "voluntary slavery" as you call it, only applies to JEWS! Read your bible, fundie! Exodus 21:2 clearly says "hebrew servant". Leviticus 25:44ff however applies to non-jews:
25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
Doesn't sound much voluntary for me.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
- none of the passages you quoted forbids slavery, instead slavery is accepted as a fact
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A FACT among other nations which automatically enslaved millions to fuel their economy. NOT among the hebrews. |
Leviticus:
25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
| Quote: |
| It does not accept it as okay, it accepts it as Wrong, and immoral to the Hebrews. That's clearly outlined in the bible, |
Where?
| Quote: |
| It allows a system of "volunary servitude" and has numerous passages about stealing. kidnapping ETC. |
BS.
Leviticus:
25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
- the "restrictions" (i.e. release after 6 years) only apply to Jews, NOT to anyone else
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Absolutely correct. and i'm defending the Bible, not the code of Hammurabi. Your point is? |
My point is that your unholy bible allows slavery here:
Leviticus:
25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
| Quote: |
| I already showed yout he "release after six years as a moral Code, or ISreal. Yep, I never said this was widespread and believed by all. No sir, i presented this quite clearly as an aspect of Judiasm, and that is was humane and a system of "voluntary servitude." Yep I did. |
No, you didn't.
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| Quote: |
- the "treat them well" excuse doesn't cut it,
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not an excuse at all, it's the LAW when it comes to the jews. Not an excuse. and i've already SHOWN you it was entered into voluntarily by people |
Pray tell, how does that "voluntary slavery" of yours apply to the "sell your daughter" verse (Exodus 21:7)? Is it voluntary if you sell someone else? Nope. Is it voluntery if that owner then sells that person again? Nope. (Just for the record, I did read your wife-excuse. That doesn't cut it either, as it is completely irrelevant for what reason a person is deprived of his/her freedom. That wife-excuse actually makes it even more disgusting, as you can add rape to enslavement.)
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| Quote: |
depriving someone of his/her freedom is the exact oposite of treating someone well
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Yep, and if it was "involutary" you'd have a point, but as it is, i've already stated that I'm talking about Jewish Practices, not Egyptoian, Hatiaian ethiopian or anyone else. Leviticus clearly states that Kidnappers are evil and that clearly indicates that "Voluntary servitude" is not the same as "involnutary Slavery." You done yet? |
Oh, so inheriting people is voluntary. Yeah, right.
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| Now when it comes to your moral outrage over slavery, all i have to say it that I'm only talking about the Hebrews. |
I also talk about the hebrews.
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| I talk of no other group. The fact that some christian participated in SLAVERY in the 13th through the late 1900's is regrettable, but is a failure of christians on an individual level, NOT GOD, nor of the Christian religion. Since the letters of Paul and others clearly state that all are equal under the messiah. |
But not under men. The NT tells slaves to be obedient to their masters, so Christianity too condones slavery (i.e. Ephesians 6:5). Ephesians 6:9 even adresses the slave owners.
_________________
</islam>
"Never argue with idiots. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Goldthwait H. Dorr |
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LCD
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 3385
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="ixolite"]
Slavery per definitionem can't be voluntary, as it takes the freedom away from someone.
{/quote]
and an i said, it is BASED on a concept that is not understandable today!
I said, that things then were not like they are Now. Jobs were not abundant, neither were there protections. A young man could neter into a voluntary agreement to work and serve a person for 6 years! That person would be called a servant and would be educated, and cared for and fed and housed and taught a trade! He would serve as a servent for Six years, getting clothes and WAGES! You are basing this on a 20th century definition of Involuntary slavery. Slavery to the Hebrews was Voluntary! and it had a 6 year cap, which i have already proven and shown. All you keep showing is the word SLAVERY in the bible and claiming it means Involuntary. IT does not!
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Wut?
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So like a typical athiest, you don't know the stories and have not read the bible, so you can't make a defense. Come back when you can.
Thanks for playing.
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Wut?
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Again, no response. Get off your butt and read.
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| I've also poined out to you, that The Hebrews in the Leviticus Law Code outlines of system of "Voluntary Slavery" that includes a 6 year cap and a code of condust, and that despite your objections to the 13th to modern century notionbs of Salvery, the Hebrew system of voluntary Servitude, which included "choice" and voluntary action were NOT involuntary what so ever. I've shown you that. You keep ignoring that, to your own peril, I also SHOWED you, quite clearly that is wasn't the same, but you keep ignoring it. |
| Quote: |
This "voluntary slavery" as you call it, only applies to JEWS! Read your bible, fundie! Exodus 21:2 clearly says "hebrew servant". Leviticus 25:44ff however applies to non-jews:
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You need to clarify. It's a LAW CODE, that Jews must follow it, applies to all who enter into the agreement under Jews. Your wrong because Elizar was not a jew. And he stood to inherit all of Abraham's wealth.
Sorry.
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25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
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The Seven YEAR cap still exists. Stp trying to explain it away. |
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shoeshiner
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 4684
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| LCD wrote: |
| ixolite wrote: |
Slavery per definitionem can't be voluntary, as it takes the freedom away from someone.
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and an i said, it is BASED on a concept that is not understandable today! |
But you and only you understand it [the concept], right?
_________________
"The curse of man, and cause of nearly all of his woes, is his stupendous capacity for believing the incredible."
H. L. Mencken |
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LCD
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 3385
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| shoeshiner wrote: |
| LCD wrote: |
| ixolite wrote: |
Slavery per definitionem can't be voluntary, as it takes the freedom away from someone.
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and an i said, it is BASED on a concept that is not understandable today! |
But you and only you understand it [the concept], right? |
No, I said, that you are defining slavery in terms of a 19th century notion of human rights, and human atrocity. If you're going to blame the Judeo-Christian God then you can downright be honest and note that secular swocieteies praciticed slavery too.
I already showed you that the Judeo-Christian notion of bonded indemniture was voluntary, not involuntary. There's the first difference. The second difference is the 6 year cap.
But you can't sit there and say the word slavery means only one thing, since it didn't have the connotation of kidnapping, torture, genocide and all the injustices you claim are a violation of civil rights until later.
In the time of BC, there weren't many of the things that you take for granted. There was certainly no police forces. There weren't courts, there certainly wasn't a respect for human life, or the right to free speech or even the exact right to property that we take for granted today.
So, I'm really tired of your moral arroagance to claim all slavery is the4 same and means the same thing. The use of the word slavery alone isn't enough to justify you and anyne else's ideas.
If you can prove that the Hebrews were intolerant, violent and killed their servants and beat them and killed them. if you can prove they kidnapped them. That they treated them as infiriors and less than human, you'd have a point--So until you can prove that Voluntary servitude and involutary slavery aren't considered different in the Torah, then you'll have a point. |
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Tarun
Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Posts: 607
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| doubtless wrote: |
| The feudal system was first started by the muslims and then they dismantled a lot of it, but then the british rebuilt it with a vengence. After independence, India under Nehru and Patel broke the feudal system limiting the size of land holdings, eliminating the previliages attached to being a prince of some small state etc. Pakistan never did. The corrupt power feudal structure of the british still troubles Pakistan. |
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7466&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=330
Dated and timed as Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:17 am.
_________________
A God who punishes finite sins with infinite torment does not know the concept of striking a balance between delivering justice and compassion.Such a God is cruel.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man-
Thomas Paine |
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Agape Love
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 600
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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From the begining, God does not approve of slavery.
The Bible states that "man has dominated man to his injury." (Ecclesiastes 8:9).
But did not God later allow slavery among his people? Yes, he did. Why?
Because just like on the subject of divorce, the hearts of the people of that time were hard. (Matthew 19:
cheers
_________________
Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. |
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