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simony
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
Posts: 9
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:24 am Post subject: How Is Jesus The Son Of God?Jesus Claimed He Was The Son Of |
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| FreePower wrote: |
Jesus is not God’s Son in the sense of how we think of a father and a son. God did not get married and have a son. Jesus is God’s Son in the sense that He is God made manifest in human form (John 1:1,14)
Jesus is God's Son in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:35 declares, "The angel answered, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.'" In Bible times, the phrase “son of man” was used to describe a human being. The son of a man is a man.
During His trial before the Jewish leaders, the High Priest demanded of Jesus, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God" (Matthew 26:63). Jesus responded, “Yes, it is as you say, ‘but I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven” (Matthew 26:64). The Jewish leaders responded by accusing Jesus of blasphemy (Matthew 26:65-66). Later, before Pontius Pilate, “The Jews insisted, ‘We have a law, and according to that law He must die, because He claimed to be the Son of God’” (John 19:7). Why would claiming to be the “Son of God” be considered blasphemy and be worthy of a death sentence? The Jewish leaders understood exactly what Jesus meant by the phrase “Son of God.” To be the “Son of God” is to be of the same nature as God. The “Son of God” is “of God.” The claim to be of the same nature as God, to in fact “be God,” was blasphemy to the Jewish leaders; therefore, they demanded Jesus’ death. Hebrews 1:3 expresses this very clearly, “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being…”
Another example can be found in John 17:12 where Judas is described as the "son of perdition." John 6:71 tells us that Judas was the son of Simon. What does John 17:12 mean by describing Judas as the "son of perdition"? The word "perdition" means "destruction, ruin, waste." Judas was not the literal son of "ruin, destruction, and waste" - but those things were the identity of Judas' life. Judas was a manifestation of perdition. In this same aspect, Jesus is the Son of God. The Son of God is God. Jesus is God made manifest (John 1:1,14)
Here are more verses to backup my case:
Mat 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Mat 13:14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.'
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
John 8:56-58 'Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
John 8:23-24 But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I AM, you will indeed die in your sins."
John 11:25-27 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" "Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."
John 14:6-7 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well.
John 10:24-33 The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
In conclusion If you would like me to go on and write more I will do so, now if you would like we can make an exclusive room and have a debate. |
How Is Jesus The Son Of God?Jesus Claimed He Was The Son Of God! When people began to say about Jesus that he was Elijah or one of the Prophets Lord Jesus asked the disciples what they thought who he was
and one of them replied,"You are the Christ the Son of the living God." Jesus replied to him,"Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah,for
this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven" Mathew;16;16,17 Jesus said,"Whatever the Father does the Son also
does."John;5;19 This means He could do all things God the Father did.Not even the greatest prophets could ever say that they could do
anything that Almighty God did.Then Jesus said,"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life,even so the Son gives life
to whom he is pleased to give it."John;5;21 While he was on earth Jesus did the works no one else has ever done and spoke the words no
one else could ever speak.When Jesus got out of water after baptism a voice was heard from heaven saying;"This is my well beloved Son in
whom I am well pleased." Mathew;3;17 This was God the Father testifying concerning His Son.Lord Jesus told his disciples that
where two or three are gathered in His Name he would be in their midst.Mathew;18 Then He said" I am with you always,Even to the end of
the age"Mathew;28 No human being dead or alive can be present many different places at the same time.This proves Jesus is God.No
poltical leaders or kings ever promised their families or nation that after their departure from the world they would be with them
forever.But Lord Jesus did.This proves the divinity of Jesus Christ.When the High Priest asked Jesus;"Tell us if You are the
Christ,the Son of God!" Jesus said to him,"Hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power,and coming on the
clouds of heaven."Mathew;26;63,64 What Jesus meant was that after the resurrection he would sit on the throne of God in heaven.
Jesus Christ is the only Person born of the Spirit of God from a woman.God sent angel Gabriel to virgin Mary and spoke these
words to her,"Do not be afraid,Mary,you have found favor with God.You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him
Jesus.He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.And when Mary wondered how this could be because she was a
virgin the angel again told her,"The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.So the holy one to
be born will be called the Son of God."Luke;1;26-35 God the Father sent His Son Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world.Lord Jesus Christ himself spoke these words while he was in the world."For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,but that the world through Him might be
saved."John;3;16,17 Yes,Jesus Christ claimed He was the Son of God.His disciples worshiped him for this reason saying,"We have seen his
glory,the glory of the one and only [Son],who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."John;1;14 Jesus Christ came down from heaven
and he went back into heaven"No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known."John;1;19
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men" John;1;1-4.And this Word who was God and by whom all things were created 'became flesh, and dwelt among us,' [John;1;14] Could he be only a prophet and nothing more than that when the WORD miraculously incarnated and took human form?
Who said Jesus Was the Son of God?
Scriptures said Jesus was the Son of God.. [Psalm 2,Psalm 110 Daniel 3 Daniel 7 ]
Prophets said that. [John 1 Isaiah 7 Isaiah 9]
Angel Gabriel said, [Luke 1]
Disciples of Jesus confessed [John 1, John 11]
Lord Jesus said He was [John 3 Mark 14 ]
God The Father from heaven [Mathew 3]
Nature proclaimed [Mathew 27] |
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parvez_mushtaq
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 265
Location: india
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: |
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[quote="chingachgook"]
so being rich is the biggest sin as per this context
| Quote: |
Yeah, even Atheist, Buddhists, Hindoos.... but not Islam, and we are talking about Islam here. Muslims are suffering from famine in Africa and where do the rich Sheikhs put their money? To build more mosques, to buy more guns!  Who are looking after the welfare of poor Muslims? The non-Muslims! .... and you all shout from mountain tops that you give alms as if only your religion do so. |
i gave you the charity of hindus as example because being a muslim i am not suppose to boast about our charity
but you want me to do that
ok
islam is the only religion which celebrate charity
for eg. ID-UL-FITR
festival of charity
before going to the prayer of ID every muslim should give fitra to the needy
and this is one day food i eat
so , since i eat rice i should give 2.5 Kgs of rice or some times money equivalent ,that is about 2 dollars approx.
now , about 1.2 billion muslims are doing this , if not about 80%(assuming 20% of them cannot give fitra)
this amounts to 1.6 billion dollars .so yearly in a single day muslims give 1.6 billion dollars as charity and this is must for them every year
now the second part of charity is zakat
every muslim should pay 2.5% of his property as charity every year
know assuming 50% of them paying 100 dollars then this amounts to 60 billions dollars as charity by muslim community every year !
and this are the basic charities and every muslim should do
now to whom this should be given is as per quran
surah 9 verse 60.
As-Sadaqât (here it means Zakât) are only for the Fuqarâ' (poor), and Al-Masâkin (the poor) and those employed to collect (the funds); and for to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined (towards Islâm); and to free the captives; and for those in debt; and for Allâh's Cause (i.e. for Mujâhidûn - those fighting in the holy wars), and for the wayfarer (a traveller who is cut off from everything); a duty imposed by Allâh. And Allâh is All-Knower, All-Wise.
and it clearly states that in
surah 41 verse 7.
Those who give not the Zakât and they are disbelievers in the Hereafter. and one more beautiful verse about charity is
surah 2 verse 177
It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and each and every act of obedience to Allâh, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allâh, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masâkin (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and gives the Zakât, and who fulfill their covenant when they make it, and who are As-Sâbirin (the patient ones, etc.) in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of fighting (during the battles). Such are the people of the truth and they are AlMuttaqûn (pious - see V.2:2).
so the base of Islam is monotheism and charity
charity in Islam is the best retail from of charity and the most effective
| Quote: |
| Yeah BE GOOD TO HUMANITY Do Jews and other kuffars count as humanity? .... Not Islam! |
of course sir quran clearly says every one is equal before GOD
if you want the reference i will give
| Quote: |
| Your earlier post insinuate christians as people who commit all sort of sins. |
yes , all christians are in sins as per bible
see , if you are rich , you will never enter paradise (for example),and i can quote lots of action of christians are sin if you judge those actions by bible
| Quote: |
| ...... and the greatest of ALL Commandments is "Love your neighbour as yourself" |
surah 4 verse 36.
Worship Allâh and join none with Him in worship, and do good to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, Al-Masâkin (the poor), the neighbour who is near of kin, the neighbour who is a stranger, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (you meet), and those (slaves) whom your right hands possess. Verily, Allâh does not like such as are proud and boastful;
note : neighbour may be a non-muslim also (..... the neighbour who is a stranger...)
_________________
006.108
YUSUFALI: Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. ...... |
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parvez_mushtaq
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 265
Location: india
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| Mersk wrote: |
| Am I half-expecting a non-Christian to tell Muslims what religion was Jesus practicing from the completed Injeel Allah gave him?! |
i want to tell all non-muslims that Islam is the perfected version of all the religions of this planet
_________________
006.108
YUSUFALI: Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. ......
Last edited by parvez_mushtaq on Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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parvez_mushtaq
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 265
Location: india
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| Mughal wrote: |
Thank you dear parvez_mushtaq but may I ask, how did you come to the conclusion that other religious scriptures were corrupted and that quran remains intact when the available evidences puts them all in the same basket?
regards and |
again , pl refer the definition of god ,
human ,if we consider all humans from the first human (Adam pbuh) to the last human just before the day of Resurrection as one ,ie assume all humans as a single entity (again all trillions of humans considered as one large big entity, hope you will figure this out,)then that large entity will be like an atom in the ocean ,and that ocean is not GOD but the creation of GOD!
so human is an atom in a ocean and holds nothing in his creation
and the word GOD fall much short to describe the ORIGINAL ORIGINATOR and we have no words to describe GOD in this worldly languages , as quran rightly quotes about GOD in
18. Al-Kahf (The Cave)-109. Say (O Muhammad SAW to mankind). "If the sea were ink for (writing) the Words of my Lord, surely, the sea would be exhausted before the Words of my Lord would be finished, even if we brought (another sea) like it for its aid."
this is the islamic defination of GOD
christians attribute son(s) to GOD hindus manufacture GOD(S)
but islam says GOD IS ONE
as in surah 112
1. Say (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)): "He is Allâh, (the) One.
2. "Allâh-us-Samad ( ÇáÓíÏ ÇáÐì íÕãÏ Çáíå Ýì ÇáÍÇÌÇÊ ) (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).
3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten;
4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him
regarding the second part of your question , pl give me another version of quran
_________________
006.108
YUSUFALI: Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. ...... |
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parvez_mushtaq
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 265
Location: india
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: Re: God Has Children ! |
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| simony wrote: |
Why Muslims Say They Are Only Slaves ?
Since the Scriptures from the beginning speak about God's children in many places why the Muslims say they are only slaves of Allah ?
God says "Israel is my son,even my first born",and "I am a Father to Israel."
Does the Koran anywhere says that Muslims are God's sons and daughters?
The Holy Bible talks about God's chilren.Created, Chosen,Begotten,Adopted and all that.In which one of these categories the Muslims are listed?Why they say they are only slaves?Lord Jesus came to make sons of men sons of God."Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."John;1;12,13
God's Children -It's because of your ignorace of Scriptures you say God doesn't have Children.
"…Adam, which was the son of God."
a. Genesis, Chapter 6 verse 2
" That the sons of God saw the daughters of men,"
b. Exodus, Chapter 4 verse 22
"…Israel is my son, even my firstborn".
c. Jeremiah, Chapter 31 verse 9
"…For I (God) am a Father to Israel, and E’-phra-im is my firstborn."
d. Psalms, Chapter 2 verse 7
"…the LORD hath said unto me, ‘Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee.’"
" God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son.
e...John;3;16
..They are born of God."
f....John;1;13
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."
g...Romans,chapter 8 verse 14
If Mohammad told you that you are slaves of Allah ,no problem.But this is what the Lord Jesus said,"A slave does not remain in a household forever, but a son always remains.So if a son frees you, then you will truly be free."John;8;35,36 |
wow lots of sons for GOD and not even single daughter !
i don't know what enmity does GOD of bible has with women
if the "son" in bible refers to godly person , then we have no objection
pl read this verse carefully and compare the definition of GOD
surah 5 verse 18.
And (both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are the children of Allâh and His loved ones." Say: "Why then does He punish you for your sins?" Nay, you are but human beings, of those He has created, He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and to Him is the return (of all).
islam is a practical religion
and this is the reality :WE ARE NOTHING IN THE CREATION OF GOD
_________________
006.108
YUSUFALI: Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. ...... |
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Mersk
Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 5764
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Quote :: [Islam is practical religion]
Since Allah is the only God, does it mean no one can decree that Muslims be right hand possessed by non-Muslims? Does not seem practical that daughters of Islam cannot be right hand possessed!!
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MAM = Muslims acting as Muslim Affairs Ministers for Modk. HAM = Last Profit of Islam. |
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chingachgook
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 3101
Location: Land of Twilight Zone
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Parvey_Mustaq, we can argue about religion for eternity. Much as you would value yours so do others theirs.The purpose of this thread is for testimonies of those who have left Islam and the purpose of this Forum is to expose Islam. You can shout from mountain tops about the greatness of Islam, the 'peace and torence' of Islam, the miracles of the KKKoran, the oneness of the ummah etc. These are purely mythical. We see the exact opposite of what you brag about. We see apostates being killed, daughters being slaughtered by their own folks, women being treated as domestic animals, innocent being bombed, churches/temples being burned, razed or bombed, statues being blasted, other faith being ridiculed, priests slaughtered, governments being terrorised by terrorists seeking self-rule, minorities in your midst being oppressed. These are the issues facing your 'true' religion from the one god called Allah. Face it, remedy it like a man. Stop saying the West do not understand Islam. We not only understand it but feel it too.
Islam is evil, Death to Islam
_________________
When Muslims DON'T follow Islam they are holy. When Christians DON'T follow Christ's they are not holy (chingachgook)
 </islam> |
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Mersk
Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 5764
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| parvez_mushtaq wrote: |
| Mersk wrote: |
| Am I half-expecting a non-Christian to tell Muslims what religion was Jesus practicing from the completed Injeel Allah gave him?! |
i want to all non-muslims that Islam is the perfected version of all the religions of this planet |
And what perfection might that be. The question is what religion was Jesus practicing that Islam object, and how different is it from today's ex-Muslim Christians. Is Islamic Isa now enjoying virgins courtesy of HAM's promise to all Muslim mothers??
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MAM = Muslims acting as Muslim Affairs Ministers for Modk. HAM = Last Profit of Islam. |
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chingachgook
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 3101
Location: Land of Twilight Zone
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
surah 5 verse 18.
And (both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are the children of Allâh and His loved ones." Say: "Why then does He punish you for your sins?" Nay, you are but human beings, of those He has created, He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and to Him is the return (of all). |
Says who?
| Quote: |
islam is a practical religion
and this is the reality :WE ARE NOTHING IN THE CREATION OF GOD |
No, to me the reality is that Islam is a cruel, barbaric, 7th Century religion mage-up by the worst criminal of all time for his own pursuit of lust, ego, fame and power.
WHY IS ISLAM PRACTICAL? Just tell me why other religions/beliefs are not practical? Is it practical for a poor muslim to go and worship the black meteorite stone in Mecca without incurring debts?
Is it practical to pray 5 times a day for the duration of your life? Is it practical for a poor labourer to fast from dawn to dusk?
Is it practical for women to be veiled?
Is it practical that god's words should only written in classical Arabic where 99% of the ummah do not know how to read let alone understand it?
_________________
When Muslims DON'T follow Islam they are holy. When Christians DON'T follow Christ's they are not holy (chingachgook)
</islam> |
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Trojan Horse
Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Posts: 1488
Location: "Where the Islamic hell freezes over..."
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: God Has Children ! |
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| parvez_mushtaq wrote: |
wow lots of sons for GOD and not even single daughter !
i don't know what enmity does GOD of bible has with women if the "son" in bible refers to godly person , |
Hypocrite read what your koran says you should do to your women, befoe you point fingers. What does allah have against women that she is treated like property of man?
[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
[2.223] Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.
tilth /tɪlθ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [tilth] Show IPA Pronunciation ,
–noun 1. the act or operation of tilling land; tillage.
2. the state of being tilled or under cultivation.
3. the physical condition of soil in relation to plant growth.
4. land that is tilled or cultivated.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tilth
Who cares how the women feel. Plow her whenever you feel like it. Your lustful feeling are made far superior than your women because they are mere tilth.
| Quote: |
| islam is a practical religion |
 Practical indeed only if you are a muslim male. Women are your property. Force them cover up so that you may not be alluded to sin. Even in paradise you have sexual rewards (which ever way you dare to swing) while righteous women are left high and dry.
_________________
Famous last words:
| orangupahan wrote: |
| I'm an advocate of pedophilia. Its legal according to Allah's law, there's nothing wrong with it. |
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Haik Monsieur
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 2393
Location: FFI
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| parvez_mushtaq wrote: |
hi haik
i am here on earth and in India |
Hello parvez, your location is specified in your profile so this acknowledgement is unnecessary. Your answer to Mughal made an impression like you are not belonging to the world which we are accustomed to. Anyway, thank you for the response.
| parvez_mushtaq wrote: |
and pl don't run away in the middle |
Oh No. I wasn’t running away if you mean our previous discussion in another thread. In fact, I prefer to stop at certain junctures while debating if I sense my opponent is trying to drag me to his/her kindergarten level. That is for salvaging myself and should not be considered as running away.
Besides, I will not be discussing you further if you continue in this mode. Your post looks like a chat transcript. If you are for serious discussions, the format of your posts should be changed.
| parvez_mushtaq wrote: |
can you tell me does any of this sects says there are two gods or mohammed(pbuh) is the son of GOD
they all follow quran and the same GOD
their tradition differs because man is more attached to his race and tradition but by quran they all are one
so there is no KIND is islam
that is why i said i know nothing about the KIND of muslims
who never follow quran or take mohammed(pbuh) as his son
all muslims believe quran is the word of GOD and mohammed (pbuh) was his prophet and they even say jesus was a prophet,non of the muslim sect says jesus was the son of god .ALL MUSLIMS have the same faith |
Well, the question was what kind of a Muslim are you and you answer there is only one kind of Muslim? How come it is so?
You affirm there is diversity within you but in the matter of faith you guys are one. That doesn’t release you from the hook at all. Let me explain:
If you are a Shia and not a Sunni, you believe in a god who would suffice with three times prayers. But your Sunni brother believes in a god who will only be happy with five times prayers. We see two gods here. Don’t you?
I just gave you one of the many models revealing you guys differ each other. These differences make you people different kinds too. You can be a kind of Muslim who believes god will not tolerate anyone who doesn’t pray to him directly, while your Sufi Muslim brother will put his trust in a more tolerant, flexible god. No matter whether there is a concept of monotheism that is common among you, that alone will not let you guys off the hook of being different kinds.
And that was all what Mughal asking you. And you can’t run away from the question heralding you guys have an Allah and Muhammad in common. You folks believe in a god but differ on his features.
If you differ in believing in your god’s features, that makes you different kinds too. It is not hard and unfathomable as you think or want it to be.
So, what kind of a Muslim are you? Are you the kind which believes "five times prayers good, three time prayers bad?"
PS: Sorry for this tardy response, still if you don’t change your posting style, I am sorry but no further response is guaranteed. I am for serious discussions and want my contester too in serious mode and mood.
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simony
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| parvez_mushtaq wrote: |
| Chewchy wrote: |
Welcome to the FFI Forum.
I hope to see more of your posts here and am glad that you found something truly meaningful in your spiritual life; it's obvious that your change of heart is more fulfilling for you.
I may not share your religious belief but congratulate you for making this very difficult change from what you've been taught to believe. |
now i see spirituality is in sleep
and you can even dream
without bothering to investigate
haha |
How Truly written !
" 'Look, you scoffers,
wonder and perish,
for I am going to do something in your days
that you would never believe,
even if someone told you." Acts;13;40 |
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Mughal
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1211
Location: Islamabad,Pakistan Glasgow,Scotland
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| parvez_mushtaq wrote: |
| Mughal wrote: |
Dear parvez_mushtaq greetings.
May I ask, are you a muslim? If yes what kind of muslims?
regards and |
i am a muslim
and i dont know about the "KINDS" among the muslims |
Dear parvez mushtaq, I can tell you there are various sects who claim to be muslims eg sunni, shia. They each have their own sets of hadith collections. Do you believe in hadith or just in the quran alone? If you are quran only kind of muslim then that means hadith books and fiqh books regardless of sunnies or shias don't mean a thing to you.
If you are a wahabi or salafi type of muslim then brailvies and shias would seem polytheists to you and you would be deemed by them a heretic committing kufr by showing disrespect for imaams and saints of the ummah by being a ghair muqallid=nonconformist.
So you can now see how difficult it is for anyone to understand exactly where one stands if one says one is just a muslim. If one thereby becomes individual then he is not part of ummah and so interpretation of any such individual is just viod, for only ummatic islam is valid islam.
| parvez_mushtaq wrote: |
| Mughal wrote: |
| Dear parvez_mushtaq, could I ask why you reject other religions and accept islam? |
dear
islam never preached to reject other religions rather it says all religions are from GOD but they have changed
ONLY TRUE RELIGION IS ISLAM |
To make such claim, you must put forth the related evidence but put forth nothing. According to the quran muhammad told jews and christians to follow their own scriptures they had at the time. The question is why would he if they were changed?
| parvez_mushtaq wrote: |
| Mughal wrote: |
Thank you dear parvez_mushtaq but may I ask, how did you come to the conclusion that other religious scriptures were corrupted and that quran remains intact when the available evidences puts them all in the same basket?
regards and |
again , pl refer the definition of god ,
human ,if we consider all humans from the first human (Adam pbuh) to the last human just before the day of Resurrection as one ,ie assume all humans as a single entity (again all trillions of humans considered as one large big entity, hope you will figure this out,)then that large entity will be like an atom in the ocean ,and that ocean is not GOD but the creation of GOD!
so human is an atom in a ocean and holds nothing in his creation
and the word GOD fall much short to describe the ORIGINAL ORIGINATOR and we have no words to describe GOD in this worldly languages , as quran rightly quotes about GOD in
18. Al-Kahf (The Cave)-109. Say (O Muhammad SAW to mankind). "If the sea were ink for (writing) the Words of my Lord, surely, the sea would be exhausted before the Words of my Lord would be finished, even if we brought (another sea) like it for its aid."
this is the islamic defination of GOD
christians attribute son(s) to GOD hindus manufacture GOD(S)
but islam says GOD IS ONE
as in surah 112
1. Say (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)): "He is Allâh, (the) One.
2. "Allâh-us-Samad ( ÇáÓíÏ ÇáÐì íÕãÏ Çáíå Ýì ÇáÍÇÌÇÊ ) (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).
3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten;
4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him
regarding the second part of your question , pl give me another version of quran |
You see dear parvez, religion is a matter of faith for believers, it is therefore not based on logic but alleged revelations. Since revelations being such are not supposed to be though of in logical terms therefore your try for aplying logic in cases of faith is fatal. It is as if you are shooting yourself in the foot.
You cannot know just by logic alone whether there is a god or not nor how many of them there are. So if you believe the quran merely as a matter of faith then you must believe in any other alleged divine scripture on the very same basis. If you do not then your test cannot be a fair test. If you question one religion then you must do the same to any other just so that you are fair in testing them equally.
Just on your own you cannot tell whether god has a wife or not or any other relatives or not. I can agree that some scriptures may contain more faults than others but faults are in all of them.
Logic and faith do not add up dear parvez but if you must apply logic then you must do the same to them all.
regards and
_________________
All the best from Mughal at http://www.religionandsecularism.gq.nu/favorite_links.html |
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Chewchy
Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 1774
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| simony wrote: |
| parvez_mushtaq wrote: |
| Chewchy wrote: |
Welcome to the FFI Forum.
I hope to see more of your posts here and am glad that you found something truly meaningful in your spiritual life; it's obvious that your change of heart is more fulfilling for you.
I may not share your religious belief but congratulate you for making this very difficult change from what you've been taught to believe. |
now i see spirituality is in sleep
and you can even dream
without bothering to investigate
haha |
How Truly written !
" 'Look, you scoffers,
wonder and perish,
for I am going to do something in your days
that you would never believe,
even if someone told you." Acts;13;40 |
Simony, is your response to Parvez or myelf? |
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parvez_mushtaq
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 265
Location: india
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| chingachgook wrote: |
Parvey_Mustaq, we can argue about religion for eternity. Much as you would value yours so do others theirs.The purpose of this thread is for testimonies of those who have left Islam and the purpose of this Forum is to expose Islam. You can shout from mountain tops about the greatness of Islam, the 'peace and torence' of Islam, the miracles of the KKKoran, the oneness of the ummah etc. These are purely mythical. We see the exact opposite of what you brag about. We see apostates being killed, daughters being slaughtered by their own folks, women being treated as domestic animals, innocent being bombed, churches/temples being burned, razed or bombed, statues being blasted, other faith being ridiculed, priests slaughtered, governments being terrorised by terrorists seeking self-rule, minorities in your midst being oppressed. These are the issues facing your 'true' religion from the one god called Allah. Face it, remedy it like a man. Stop saying the West do not understand Islam. We not only understand it but feel it too.
Islam is evil, Death to Islam |
this is the problem that Christians have when they are question about biblical laws
they weasel out by attributing political,individual actions to islam and say this is what Islam is all about
i tell you one thing from the bottom of my heart
the most structured and the best book is quran
just prove me how bible is batter than quran and i will become a christian today
_________________
006.108
YUSUFALI: Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. ...... |
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