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Discussed Farid vs Infidel01
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Haik Monsieur

Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 2393
Location: FFI

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: Discussed Farid vs Infidel01

Hi friends, Let us have our say on Farid vs indidel01 regarding God I have debated Farid and I respect his composure. Infidel01 is quick witted and sharp with words. Debate has just begun, and so far been impressive though Farid is still beating around the bush. For those want to comment I would suggest this thread, so the one-on-one debate will go on without intrusions. Khalil _________________ ________________________________

AhmedBahgat

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:46 pm Post subject:

Farid wrote:

salaam,

Infidel_01, you seem to be evading the point of this thread. I have made it very simple for you, yet you have not answered it. You are talking off topic.

You are exactly correct when saying that I do not make any claims, but you do make claims and I am here to ask for that claims evidence.

You, infidel_01, have made a claim that God can not err. Do you have evidence for this?

The point of this thread is to show you that your question does not have any bases and therefore should not be even asked. That is the point of this thread. So please provide evidence that God can not err.

You ask me to learn about God, if you know of a way, then please let us know. Knowing about God is not something basic.

Thank you.

What a slam

this how you do it Muslims, DISABLE THE KAFIRS
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shoeshiner

Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 4684

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject:

Hi AB, If Allah is all-knowing, then how can he err? _________________ "The curse of man, and cause of nearly all of his woes, is his stupendous capacity for believing the incredible." H. L. Mencken

AhmedBahgat

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject:

shoeshiner wrote:

Hi AB,

If Allah is all-knowing, then how can he err?

Hi

I'm not saying that He may err, what I'm saying that If Allah can do anything then there is nothing to prevent him to err

now if you believe that Allah can never err then you need to provide evidences on the table
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AhmedBahgat

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:56 pm Post subject:

Farid wrote:

Salaam,

Infidel_01 Wrote:

Quote:

Fair enough. Take your time but don't argue about the things you don't know much about. Just an advise.

Farid Wrote:

If you see, I did not say Quran is from Allah(swt). Obviously, that would be a claim. Therefore, you need evidence, and my evidence is probably not enough for you. But my point in this is that saying that the Quran is not from Allah(swt) is also a claim and thus needs evidence.

Thank you.

Another slam
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shoeshiner

Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 4684

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:58 pm Post subject:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

shoeshiner wrote:

Hi AB,

If Allah is all-knowing, then how can he err?

Sure, if Allah can do anything, then he can pleasure himself too, but that's not what we are discussing here. The question is if Allah can unknowingly err or not? If he is all-knowing, he is unable to err, since he knows everything. And that is evidence that he cannot err.
_________________
"The curse of man, and cause of nearly all of his woes, is his stupendous capacity for believing the incredible."

H. L. Mencken

AhmedBahgat

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:35 pm Post subject:

shoeshiner wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

shoeshiner wrote:

Hi AB,

If Allah is all-knowing, then how can he err?

if you say Allah knows everything (all-Knowing) then your question is contradictory, see you added the word "unknowingly " while you say that He is all-Knowing, therefore your question should be like this:

The question is if Allah can knowingly err or not?

and for such question, the answer is simply, I do not know nor do you, nor anyone for that matter
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Haik Monsieur

Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 2393
Location: FFI

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:22 am Post subject:

Ahmed Bahgat wrote:

Hi Ahmed,

It can not be that simple as you want it to be. Allah, the god we find in Quran is an extremely weak deity given his limitations. He can not change anything that he preordained, so he is weaker than any of his creatures for the very reason of this predestination. Predestination is not dictating limits to human beings in effect, but very much limits Allah; the one who made all this mess.

Now, the question whether Allah can err or not is to be handled from an Islamic theological perspective. Can Allah err? After all what does it mean erring? It is very much denotative of deviating from what is right. Being right or righteous is Allah’s essential quality, so he can not help not being right. Doing otherwise will shatter all what he preordained imperiling his quality of being a moral agent.

So… tell us Ahmed, can Allah, your god err? Answer can only be a big NO.

PS: You may post your answer for me to pick up later. It is too late in here for me to stay online for longer.

Khalil
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shoeshiner

Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 4684

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:46 am Post subject:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

shoeshiner wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

shoeshiner wrote:

Hi AB,

If Allah is all-knowing, then how can he err?

The question is contradictory because the idea that an all-knowing being can err is contradictory. I added the word "unknowingly" precisely for this reason. The idea that an all-knowing god would knowingly err is even more absurd. Can god say 2+2=5? Our position is that he can't since such a claim would be a lie, since god would know the answer and so by saying that 5 is the answer he is trying to mislead. I guess your next question would be "can god lie?". Do you see how absurd this way of thinking is?
_________________
"The curse of man, and cause of nearly all of his woes, is his stupendous capacity for believing the incredible."

H. L. Mencken

AhmedBahgat

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:29 am Post subject:

Haik Monsieur wrote:

So… tell us Ahmed, can Allah, your god err? Answer can only be a big NO.
[/b]

what total crap is that, so you ask me a question and propose the answer then claim to be the only answer?

you are a real jerk, therefore I have to dismiss you
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Farid

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 193

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:35 am Post subject:

Salaam,

Shoeshiner Wrote:

Quote:

The question is contradictory because the idea that an all-knowing being can err is contradictory.

Farid Wrote:

Shoeshiner, how do you know that God is all-knowing? First that needs to be answered for us to even consider the contradictory consequences.

Shoeshiner Wrote:

Quote:

since god would know the answer and so by saying that 5 is the answer he is trying to mislead. I guess your next question would be "can god lie?". Do you see how absurd this way of thinking is?

Farid Wrote:

This is not absurd. Not even near it actually. You do not know God, you do not even know if He exists, how then can you say He wont lie or cant lie?

Haik Wrote:

Quote:

So… tell us Ahmed, can Allah, your god err? Answer can only be a big NO.

Farid Wrote:

let me demonstrate the answer in the form of a fake letter.

"To whom it may concern,

Hi, my name is Jim. I am an Alien from Jupiter. Anyways, I am a very attractive man, I never lie, I am a very trustworthy person.

Thank you,

Jim"

Now let me ask you a few questions:

1. "Is" Jim a honest person or does the letter "say" he is a honest person?

2. Can you say that Jim "is" a honest person?

The answers are very obvious, the first one is "the letter says" and the second is no. Why? Because we do not know Jim.

So therefore, I am interested in how Allah really is. Not what it says in the Quran. The reason? Well, I just posted the fake letter to demonstrate it.

Therefore, Haik, you can not say that Allah can not err.

Thank you.

shoeshiner

Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 4684

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:56 am Post subject:

Farid wrote:

Salaam,

Shoeshiner Wrote:

Quote:

The question is contradictory because the idea that an all-knowing being can err is contradictory.

Farid Wrote:

Shoeshiner, how do you know that God is all-knowing? First that needs to be answered for us to even consider the contradictory consequences.

I am simply going by your own belief and what is said in the Koran. I am assuming as true, certain things that you say about allah, just for the sake of argument. Is it not true that the Koran says that allah is all-knowing?

Quote:

Shoeshiner Wrote:

Quote:

since god would know the answer and so by saying that 5 is the answer he is trying to mislead. I guess your next question would be "can god lie?". Do you see how absurd this way of thinking is?

Farid Wrote:

This is not absurd. Not even near it actually. You do not know God, you do not even know if He exists, how then can you say He wont lie or cant lie?

Because an entity that upholds certain things as moral and asks others to live morally, has to abide by them himself, specially if he is all-powerful, meaning that he would not have any problem upholding it himself.
_________________
"The curse of man, and cause of nearly all of his woes, is his stupendous capacity for believing the incredible."

H. L. Mencken

charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:10 am Post subject:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

shoeshiner wrote:

Hi AB,

If Allah is all-knowing, then how can he err?

Hi

I'm not saying that He may err, what I'm saying that If Allah can do anything then there is nothing to prevent him to err.

Of course. But your statement will land you in to more questions like, "Can Allah make himself weaker than humans?" or Can Allah lie?

If he can err and he can lie, what is the guarantee that he did not lie in Quran? And what differentiates him from erring, lying and cheating humans? Why should humans worship him then?

He could very well have worshipped himself perfectly.

Why did he create humans then?
_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone

Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

AhmedBahgat

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:14 am Post subject:

charleslemartel wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

shoeshiner wrote:

Hi AB,

If Allah is all-knowing, then how can he err?

Hi

I'm not saying that He may err, what I'm saying that If Allah can do anything then there is nothing to prevent him to err.

Why did he create humans then?

charlesmental

haven't I dismissed ya before?

hold on, let me check my log book:

'
'
'
'
'
'
'

yep, you have been dismissed, now why don't you respect your well earned dismissal?
_________________
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charleslemartel

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 1071

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:59 am Post subject:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

charleslemartel wrote:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

shoeshiner wrote:

Hi AB,

If Allah is all-knowing, then how can he err?

Hi

I'm not saying that He may err, what I'm saying that If Allah can do anything then there is nothing to prevent him to err.

Why did he create humans then?

charlesmental

haven't I dismissed ya before?

hold on, let me check my log book:

'
'
'
'
'
'
'

yep, you have been dismissed, now why don't you respect your well earned dismissal?

Dear Ahmak,

You have dismissed almost everyone on this forum at least once; but still you go on answering their posts. Is my dismissal permanent?

Everyone on this forum also knows that you dismiss people only when you are unable to reply to their posts.

You are honoring me too much.

_________________
Happy New Year to Everyone

Fear is the most powerful emotional tool, it can turn off the areas of the brain responsible for rational thought.
Is that why Muslims can't be rational?

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