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For ISLAME: Is there such a thing as "Divine Knowledge?
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THHuxley_redux

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1248
Location: Denver, CO

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject:

ISLAME wrote:

Our Respected and erudite friend huxley keeps asking for proof of divine knowledge. But he refuses to believe in divine miracles, existence of ghosts and other divine experiences. So what proof is he asking? The proof that can be scientifically explained....of course!

As I said before... I am skeptical, not stupid. Show me miracle, a ghost or another example of "divine experience" and then perhaps you might find a basis to whine about how I evaluate and judge it.

But it's just funny that that you assert I "refuse" to believe in divine knowledge when you admit you are unable to demonstrate to me anything to refuse in the first place.
_________________
Nullius In Verba

farishta

Joined: 27 Apr 2008
Posts: 54

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:40 am Post subject:

Popeye wrote:

ISLAME wrote:

But the fact is that dear huxley, readers have already seen how yours truly spanked you. You have lost this debate because any instead of showcasing your knowledge, this thread has become a showcase for your stupidity. You must have had so much respect here, but see how it all went away in a flash? Now you have become a HasBeen of this forum.

Well, "this reader" has witnessed the opposite, you are continuing to make a complete tit of yourself and you have been "spanked" so badly you are now abandoning any attempt to coherence and resorting to personal insults.

I must say I agree with "Popeye" one hundred percent!

"Islame" had better collect his marbles and go home.

shoeshiner

Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 4684

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:10 am Post subject:

THHuxley_redux wrote:

ISLAME wrote:

Hi Hux, I wonder if ISLAME would accept the miracles performed by the FSM for so many atheists? Or miracles performed by Krishna and Rama? Or miracles performed by Sathya Sai Baba, the child molester?
_________________
"The curse of man, and cause of nearly all of his woes, is his stupendous capacity for believing the incredible."

H. L. Mencken

ISLAME

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 389

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject:

popeye wrote:

Due apologies for any insults, not my intention at all. However, the fact remain that our friend huxley is not so smart after all, it has been proved. Of course i do not expect a fellow Atheist colleague of his not to lend support during his bad times. Atheism is after all a cult and its members are taught to be loyal to each other, no matter how hard the spanking comes.

huxley wrote:

Without my grandparents there would be no cake either. But still... no demonstration of "divine knowledge."
I won't bother to quote the rest of the post... since after all...
it contains not a single example of "divine knowledge."

Classic example of shifting the Effect. It's like me going to a bakery and asking when was this piece of bread made? And the baker replies, well 150 years ago to be precise. And that baker is huxley. End result...noone will buy the bread and bakery flops.
Intelligent readers will see here how our over intelligent huxley has shifted both the Cause and Effect, to feed his whims and fancies. When the Cause and Effect is already ANSWERED, our friend huxley, just to win a debate, tries some trickery.
Intelligent readers will also note how our friend huxley uses a human cause (his grandparents, an obvious and effective Cause to answer an Effect). However, scientific knowledge application should have nothing to do with Human Causes, our friend Huxley should instead give us example of non human Causes that makes us question human knowledge application, and lack of need for knowledge application in order to make something in life.
Again, any intelligent person will see that our friend huxley has failed very badly in this regard.

huxley wrote:

Hmmmm... more fake statistics, but still not a single example of "divine knowledge."

When i say 95% of the universe is unknown, he calls it fake statistics. Any knowledgeable reader can find out that this is not fake, but the stark truth. Not only is it unknown, but it is also unaccounted for.

huxley wrote:

do not care what you conclude on that issue.

I still see no examples of "divine knowledge."

Our respected Sir literally saying here "Sorry but i cannot give any evidence for my love for my kids and my wife. But trust me, i really do love them". Now this coming from a man, who keeps saying that facts must always be ascertained by Science, otherwise it is non-existant, it is really shocking. If Science was really true, and your faith in Science was really true, we would have seen the answers by now.

huxley wrote:

Hmmm.... I searched through the childish insults and what did find?
Still no demonstration that "divine knowledge" actually exists

Apologies for the insults, but i did not mean to insult you. But you have failed to impress with your scientific knowledge, which if it existed, should have already led you to victory in this debate.
However, intelligent readers will see clearly how you failed to answer questions and how you keep resorting to the same old recycled arguments of yours, despite already being refuted.

huxley wrote:

As I said before... I am skeptical, not stupid. Show me miracle, a ghost or another example of "divine experience" and then perhaps you might find a basis to whine about how I evaluate and judge it.
But it's just funny that that you assert I "refuse" to believe in divine knowledge when you admit you are unable to demonstrate to me anything to refuse in the first place.

You assert that Science is the basis for reality check in Life and that Science should be used to establish truth and predict life. But is Science really all that you make it out to be? I have proven throught my arguments that Science is non-existant and is not a source to establish facts. Destruction of your foundation of Science is the destruction of your argument.
Why does divine truth need to be assesed by Science? Let me use my famous example again. Smoking causes cancer. Does a scientific establishment of a fact, leave no other possibilities? So does it really matter if Science says there is a God or there is no God? Even if Science is satisfied with divine knowledge and accepts it as an answer, does it not anyways leave other possibilities? So if Science says there is God, there still would be a possibility that there is none. On what basis do you want divine knowledge to be scientifically explainable? When 95% of universe is unaccounted for, knowledge is unaccounted for too. You then say that is not knowledge but existence! The same argument could be used here too then, how do you know it exists, until you know it really exists? (Just like your "knowledge requires a knower" argument). So similarly, to label it as existence also requires a knower. You keep falling into the trap you self created.

shoeshiner wrote:

I believe that divine knowledge interacts directly with a person. I do not believe in the above you quoted. the ability is within all individual, however it is knowledge that must be acquired and achieved. Once you make that connection, you will experience.
There are accounts of millions of miracles all over the world. Even if you doubt 99.9% of it, my friend all it takes is just one real divine experience. However, there are many. Have you not heard of cancers being healed? Miracle survivals? Or just simply a positive change in someones Life? There are others who had an experience that changed their life? Out of body experiences, near death experiences, Psychic encounters with spirits. unless you believe this world is a big conspiracy, and everyone is lying, then there surfaces not reason to suspect all and sundry.
I have had personal experiences myself.
Are men the only Cause for knowledge application? Can there be a non-knowledge application Cause? Using example of the life we have, none. Let's imagine a robot (non-human Cause) making a cup of tea. Cause=robot, Effect-cup of tea. But the non-human cause(robot) has a human behind it (knowledge application). From the fact of Life, we arrive to the conclusion that knowledge application must be the answer to any Cause for an Effect, this is the basic fact life teaches us. Non-human causes can still be a part of knowledge application.
_________________
i am sorry but having more questions on a subject is not knowledge.

THHuxley_redux

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1248
Location: Denver, CO

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject:

ISLAME wrote:

Atheism is after all a cult and its members are taught to be loyal to each other, no matter how hard the spanking comes.

Too bad for your pathetic excuse that I am not an atheist.

ISLAME wrote:

I have shifted nothing. I have simply shown that the instance of cause and effect has a specific position in the causal chain. A causal chain which is infinite.

You on the other hand frantically equiovocate it the attempt to save an argument that failed weeks ago when you first offered it.

ISLAME wrote:

It is a fake statistic. You have yet to use a single true statistic in any post I have ever read from you.

How can you know it is 95% (vs 20% or 100%) without knowing what 100% actually is? You cannot calculate a quotient without knowing the value of the denominator.

And you do now know it... therfore your percentage is fake.

ISLAME wrote:

Our respected Sir literally saying here "Sorry but i cannot give any evidence for my love for my kids and my wife. But trust me, i really do love them".

I have said no such thing, and it is profoundly dishonest of you to attribute to me a quotation that is completely fake.

Again... I have provided you a link that will commence your education on the science of love. You are apparently too afraid to read it.

Back to the actual subject... you have still provided not a single demonstration of "divine knowledge."

ISLAME wrote:

So... where is that demonstration of "divine knowledge?" Exactly?

ISLAME wrote:

Why does divine truth need to be assesed by Science?

You are jumping the gun. There can be no assessment by science until the existence of divine truth has been demonstrated in the first place.

We are still waiting for you to so demonstrate. We have been asking explicitly since the first post of this thread.

Still... you have shown us exactly nothing.

ISLAME wrote:

Let me use my famous example again. Smoking causes cancer. Does a scientific establishment of a fact, leave no other possibilities?

Actually... science has established that many things cause cance, smoking being just one of them. You could not have picked a worse analogy. I am puzzled why you keep going back to it.

ISLAME wrote:

So does it really matter if Science says there is a God or there is no God? Even if Science is satisfied with divine knowledge and accepts it as an answer, does it not anyways leave other possibilities? So if Science says there is God, there still would be a possibility that there is none. On what basis do you want divine knowledge to be scientifically explainable? When 95% of universe is unaccounted for, knowledge is unaccounted for too. You then say that is not knowledge but existence! The same argument could be used here too then, how do you know it exists, until you know it really exists? (Just like your "knowledge requires a knower" argument). So similarly, to label it as existence also requires a knower. You keep falling into the trap you self created.

What a hilarious, frantic, handwringing paragraph.

And all of it irrelevant to the single question that this thread was created to answer.

All I have ever asked for is for a single demonstration that "divine knowledge" exists. To show that it should not be hard too do, I provided five examples of "scientific knowledge" in the first post.

Alas... for all your blustering and fixation on spanking, you have failed to do that one simple thing.
_________________
Nullius In Verba

Popeye

Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 504

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject:

ISLAME wrote:

popeye wrote:

You have not insulted me so you should not apologise to me, I am saying that as a reader your logic is quite simply not coherent.

This is only my view but it is reinforced by the fact that you resort to further "ad hominem" by proposing that I am part of an atheist cult, insinuating that I am loyal to a fellow atheist and insisting that you are spanking people. This is little kids mentality and there is an "under 25" forum.

I am loyal to none but myself and I can discern between a convincing argument and a childish one.
_________________
Surtout, pas trop de zele.

ISLAME

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 389

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject:

Hello all, i have been around, it is just that i was waiting for some earth shattering refutation of my posts, but well it never seems to be coming from the Atheism circle after all the wait. Readers can see clearly how yours truely has made many points in this thread, however, those points have never been refuted.

huxley wrote:

Too bad for your pathetic excuse that I am not an atheist.

Well you are technically an atheist.

huxley wrote:

I have shifted nothing. I have simply shown that the instance of cause and effect has a specific position in the causal chain. A causal chain which is infinite.
You on the other hand frantically equiovocate it the attempt to save an argument that failed weeks ago when you first offered it.

You are creating causal chains that have nothing to do with the effect in question. huxley made the cake answers both the cause and effect. There is no need to go into regress, a regress is needed only when an Effect is not answered.

huxley wrote:

It is a fake statistic. You have yet to use a single true statistic in any post I have ever read from you.
How can you know it is 95% (vs 20% or 100%) without knowing what 100% actually is? You cannot calculate a quotient without knowing the value of the denominator.
And you do now know it... therfore your percentage is fake.

Well it is not my percentage but percentage of your own scientific field. I will post a link later. Then you can email to your science friends regarding above. i do not understand how they calculate that 95%, but i am only using Science here. Both ways i win. If it is really 95% then my claims are correct, however if it is wrong, then it proves what i have been saying all along that there is no such thing as Science.
So you see, both ways it is win win situation for me.

huxley wrote:

have said no such thing, and it is profoundly dishonest of you to attribute to me a quotation that is completely fake.
Again... I have provided you a link that will commence your education on the science of love. You are apparently too afraid to read it.
Back to the actual subject... you have still provided not a single demonstration of "divine knowledge

Well, Science is based on evidence. i will only read that link once you give me the evidence and prove to me that you love your wife and kids and vice versa. Otherwise, it is waste of my time. I will test the value of that link through you, who knows the content of that link. So convince me to read that link. Prove to me that i have something to learn from that link.

huxley wrote:

You are jumping the gun. There can be no assessment by science until the existence of divine truth has been demonstrated in the first place.
We are still waiting for you to so demonstrate. We have been asking explicitly since the first post of this thread.
Still... you have shown us exactly nothing.

Divine being is self experienced and not demontrated. however, i have given you a simple way you can self experience, but you refuse to try it. The other thing is, you basic claim is things must be scientifically explained in order to exist and your whole argument clings to this basic belief. Now i question your belief. You have to prove your belief that an assessment by Science gives us 100% correct and unquestionable answers, an answer that which leaves the possibility of no other answers.

huxley wrote:

What a hilarious, frantic, handwringing paragraph.
And all of it irrelevant to the single question that this thread was created to answer.
All I have ever asked for is for a single demonstration that "divine knowledge" exists. To show that it should not be hard too do, I provided five examples of "scientific knowledge" in the first post.
Alas... for all your blustering and fixation on spanking, you have failed to do that one simple thing.

you just got spanked my friend. Read it again and again, then you will realise the spanking that is hidden in that paragraph. You go so much about cause and effect however, you fail to prove that an effect can happen without "knowledge application". You fail to see the difference is Cause being a human and a non-human. In fact your evidence should not focus on "knowledge application" causes.
_________________
i am sorry but having more questions on a subject is not knowledge.

THHuxley_redux

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1248
Location: Denver, CO

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject:

This thread began almost one month ago with an opening post that provided 5 examples of scientific knowledge, and then made a single challenge to ISLAME:

"Can you show us five comparable examples of 'divine knowledge?'"

In all his posts since, ISLAME has frantically tried to change the subject no less six times. He has accused me of atheism, launched into indecipherable arguments regarding cake making and infinite regress, spoken about cancer, both accepted and denied science in the same paragraph, and continued the profligate use of fake statistics to support false arguments.

Be we have seen not a single response to the challenge of this thread. I only asked him for 5 examples of divine knowledge, since I myself only provided five examples of scientific knowledge.

And we have yet to be presented with a single one.

That is where this thread stands.... all that follows is merely idle diversion.

_____________________________________________

ISLAME wrote:

Well you are technically an atheist.

I am "technically" exactly the same thing I am "actually"... a theist. is simpy believe in a different god than you do.

ISLAME wrote:

"Huxley made the cake" describes a single link in a causal chain. The causal chain within which it exists as a link is infinite.

Deal with it.

ISLAME wrote:

Well it is not my percentage but percentage of your own scientific field. I will post a link later.

Anybody want to bet he never posts a link?

ISLAME wrote:

Well, Science is based on evidence. i will only read that link once you give me the evidence and prove to me that you love your wife and kids and vice versa.

Hey.... I cannot force you to read anything you don't want to read. I cannot force you learn when you would rather remain uneducated. I cannot force you be smart when you value stupidity.

Your willfull embrace of ignorance is merely demonstrated yet again.

I'm completely happy with that as the status quo.

ISLAME wrote:

Divine being is self experienced and not demontrated. however, i have given you a simple way you can self experience, but you refuse to try it.

You have given me nothing.

You have shown me nothing.

You have sputtered and spun, and provided a demonstration of exactly... nothing.

And I have refused to try nothing. I am sitting here like a dry sponge waiting to soak up the experience you assure me happens millions of times all over the world. I have asked again, and again, and again for you to give me an example of such experience.

In response I get silence.

My request has been very simple since the opening post. Show us examples of "divine knowledge." And I even made and effort to insure you could not accuse me of a double standard by giving you five examples of scientific knowledge so you would know exactly what the standards of judgment would be.

You say there are millions of such examples all over the world, yet you cannot show us a single one.

Go figure.
_________________
Nullius In Verba

Abdul_Haseem

Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 298

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:14 am Post subject: Devine Knowlege is knowing what the Jews are up to

THHuxley_redux wrote:

"Can you show us five comparable examples of 'divine knowledge?'"

I can!

1) Jews control the banks
2) Jews control the book printer places
3) Jews control the USA
4) Jews control the educational system, insurance companies, FBI, CIA, DOD, NASA, FAA and FTC as well as the newspapers, record companies, durg companies, hospitals and various other junk too
5) Jews are responsible for global warming.

THIS IS ALL FACT YOU CANNOT DENY IT!!!

Abdul,
Non Multa Sed Multum
_________________
Only after the last tree has been cut down,
Only after the last river has been poisoned
Only after the last fish has been caught,
Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten.

Agnostic Indian

Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 208

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject:

seeking an unbiased opinion from all... How would science qualify something as a miracle?

THHuxley_redux

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1248
Location: Denver, CO

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject:

Agnostic Indian wrote:

seeking an unbiased opinion from all...
How would science qualify something as a miracle?

You are jumping the gun.

First the existence of the phenomenon in question must be established. This is done by eliminating all possibility of fraud or bias in a controlled, double-blind demonstration. Only then would the miraculous nature of the phenomenon need to even be considered.

It is at that first step that claims of "miracles" have generally broken down.
_________________
Nullius In Verba

crazy canuck

Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 6391

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: Devine Knowlege is knowing what the Jews are up to

Abdul_Haseem wrote:

THHuxley_redux wrote:

"Can you show us five comparable examples of 'divine knowledge?'"

Mulla Troll!!

Mulla Troll!!

Mulla Spammer!!

ixolite

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 12939
Location: land of pork and beer

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Devine Knowlege is knowing what the Jews are up to

crazy canuck wrote:

Abdul_Haseem wrote:

THHuxley_redux wrote:

"Can you show us five comparable examples of 'divine knowledge?'"

Mulla Troll!!

Mulla Troll!!

Mulla Spammer!!

Mulla FFI Humorist + Moderator.

_________________
</islam>

"Never argue with idiots. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Goldthwait H. Dorr

Abdul_Haseem

Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 298

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: Devine Knowlege is knowing what the Jews are up to

ixolite wrote:

crazy canuck wrote:

Abdul_Haseem wrote:

THHuxley_redux wrote:

"Can you show us five comparable examples of 'divine knowledge?'"

Mulla Troll!!

Mulla Troll!!

Mulla Spammer!!

Mulla FFI Humorist + Moderator.

Stop this Jewness at once!

Do not attempt to connect me with the activities of the Great Satan Ali Sina's filthy site. Bedise I have demonstrated the Jewness of Ali Sina once before, a progression traced back to the shepherd kins themselves that can down during the great famine.

Do you wish that I expose your Jewness for all to see! I've already begin the calculations and junk! You have a pretty high coefficient of jewness, this much is certain already. THIS IS FACT YOU CANNOT DENY IT!!!!
_________________
Only after the last tree has been cut down,
Only after the last river has been poisoned
Only after the last fish has been caught,
Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten.

ISLAME

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 389

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject:

huxley wrote:

My request has been very simple since the opening post. Show us examples of "divine knowledge." And I even made and effort to insure you could not accuse me of a double standard by giving you five examples of scientific knowledge so you would know exactly what the standards of judgment would be.

5 people in this world who had their cancers cured through prayers and thus producing medical miracles are but simple evidences of divine knowledge.

huxley wrote:

Hey.... I cannot force you to read anything you don't want to read. I cannot force you learn when you would rather remain uneducated. I cannot force you be smart when you value stupidity.
Your willfull embrace of ignorance is merely demonstrated yet again.
I'm completely happy with that as the status quo.

You cannot force me, but you can easily convince me. Prove to me that you love your wife and kids and vice versa, that would be evidence that one has something to learn from that link. Otherwise, if after reading it, like you, i still am not able to give scientific evidence for love, then why read it?

huxley wrote:

Anybody want to bet he never posts a link?

there are many information out there which says 96% of universe is unknown or unaccounted for. Here is one link that says that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/24/science/space/24essa.html

huxley wrote:

"Huxley made the cake" describes a single link in a causal chain. The causal chain within which it exists as a link is infinite.
Deal with it.

Nope. The cake as an Effect is already answered. You are changing the Cause (huxley) into an effect. And the Cause becomes his parents. And it goes into regress. The Effect in question (the cake) does not figure in the regress because it is already answered.
However, contrast this with the question on the universe. The Universe always remains the Effect in question that is not answered. Only the Causes goes into regress to answer this Effect. The Effect (universe) remains in the regress.
Using Cause and Effect to argue for the the existence of God is based on the fact that an Effect as it obvious in life always happen with knowledge application. And that knowledge application is conscious. Cause and Effect which involves humans in it demonstrate knowledge application. For example, a human making a cake can be accepted as an answer, but a cake existing without human involvement raises a regress on the Cause, unless knowledge application is satisfied. Thus Cause and Effect of life does not support your stand at all, so stop using it as if it does.

huxley wrote:

I am "technically" exactly the same thing I am "actually"... a theist. is simpy believe in a different god than you do.

how can there be an unscientific scientific man? It creates oxymorons.

huxley wrote:

In all his posts since, ISLAME has frantically tried to change the subject no less six times. He has accused me of atheism, launched into indecipherable arguments regarding cake making and infinite regress, spoken about cancer, both accepted and denied science in the same paragraph, and continued the profligate use of fake statistics to support false arguments.
Be we have seen not a single response to the challenge of this thread. I only asked him for 5 examples of divine knowledge, since I myself only provided five examples of scientific knowledge.

And everytime i have made a valid point. Science does research based on millions of smokers and says "Smoking causes cancer". But millions of smokers all over the world do not actually get cancer even when they smoke. So a scientific prediction still makes room for other possibilities. So Science saying "There is no God" or "There is a God" is similar to Science saying "Smoking causes cancer". There still will remain other possibilities. On that basis, using common sense, we can conclude that no matter what Science says, there still will remain a possibility that there is a God/there isnt a God. So why use Science?

huxley wrote:

You are jumping the gun.
First the existence of the phenomenon in question must be established. This is done by eliminating all possibility of fraud or bias in a controlled, double-blind demonstration. Only then would the miraculous nature of the phenomenon need to even be considered.
It is at that first step that claims of "miracles" have generally broken down.

So Science says Smoking Causes Cancer. But chronic chain smokers still live without getting cancer.
And then Science says, There are no miracles. But people continue to experience them.
Huxley it is you who is jumping the gun. You are taking Science as an assessment tool for establishing undisputable facts in life, 100% facts that which leave no other possibilities. You jumped the gun because in order for you to use Science in such a way, you first have to prove to us that Science indeed is such an assessment tool.
You failed terribly to do that. You want to question divine knowledge with Science, i have the right to ask first why? But i have done both, i have given you the answers, and i have proved that Science is not an assessment tool to establish such facts.
_________________
i am sorry but having more questions on a subject is not knowledge.

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