Bible Corrupted?

[Nicolei]

[Islamis_Allah_Tashit]

[reletomp]

case closed.
bible was corrupted. one example the letter B was changed to K 2 thousands of years ago and people continued to read the verse wrongly for two thusand years, just like the Europpean christians kept going into pilgrimage to Rome and kiss the toe of a statue for two thousands years thinking it was the statue of Peter and turned out to be the statue of Jupitor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
evidence clear.
case closed.
the jews and christians been lied to for two thousands years!

[sum]

Hello reletomp

Your quote -
the jews and christians been lied to for two thousands years!

Allah, in the Koran, didn`t think so.

sum

[truthseeker2]

I know I have posted this before, but non the less I am posting it again, as it is the truth. This information is fact so no matter how many times muslims ignore it, it does not mean it will go away. The truth is the truth & the facts & the facts & nothing will ever change that, no matter how much you want it too.

Hazrat Mohammed, who informed the Deen-i Islam, rejects the idea of a GOD and emphasizes that there is no GOD; only “ALLAH” exists, based on the Koran al Karim... Are you aware of this fact? In this chapter you will clearly see why the concept “ALLAH” informed by the Koran al Karim is completely different from any concept of a “GOD” in all other beliefs. There is a version of GOD in the minds of everybody, of almost all from the most primitive to the civilized. It is such a GOD that we love at times or feel angry with, at other times. There are even times when we judge and condemn HIM for his wrong deeds and misgivings somehow. To tell the truth, we often fancy Him almost as a sweet, plump grand-dad or as an enraged, wrathful sultan who sits on a star FAR ABOVE US, or maybe in some other places of outer space! Some more sensible people however, argue that there cannot be such a “GOD” as in people’s imagination, in reality, and claim that “they do not believe in God.” Such people are therefore called “godless” or “atheist.” Though in fact, neither atheists who do not recognize a god, nor those who had an image of GOD in their minds in association with what they heard about and were preconditioned, are aware of “MOHAMMED's ALLAH” at all! Therefore, assuming that the concept of a “God” is the same as “ALLAH”, people substitute a concept of “God” for “ALLAH” in a manner of as if making something better. In fact, what they do is right as they are indeed speaking about the image of THEIR “GODS” in their minds rather than “ALLAH” and the true concept of “ALLAH”.

We must certainly know that...
RasulAllah Mohammed Mustafa aleyhessalaam and the Koran al Karim emphasize this important fact;
Neither is there a GOD OUT-THERE nor AFAR OFF YOU; there is ONLY “ALLAH”...

The sign in the Koran that:
“They did not understand ALLAH with the understanding due to ALLAH” (22:74) signifies our negligence about this fact...

It should be known that:
The words “GOD”, “DEITY” in English and “DIEU” in French and “GOT” in German do all mean a concept of “being to worship” as their equivalents in other languages... That is, people denote a GOD or a DEITY out-there through all these words! Yet the word “ALLAH” is a PROPER noun for a BEING! It is therefore that, to mean that Being or to introduce that Being we either denote Hu through some of Hu’s attributes or point out Hu’s attributes through some of names. However, all those names signify only a few of the qualities of that Being and define Hu only in terms of such mentioned qualities. For instance, people call this poor humble as “HULUSI”. This is a proper noun for him... This name cannot be translated into any other language... It has always to be “HULUSI” whether in English or in French... The same way as this, the word “ALLAH” cannot be translated into any other language nor can it be replaced with any other word, as it is a proper noun for a Unique Being... In point of fact, as seen above, while all other names denote a “concept of deity”, only the word “ALLAH” denotes that Unique Being for it is a proper noun for that Being. Hence, none of the words implying a concept of deity can be replaced with the word “ALLAH”... Those who substitute the word “GOD” for “ALLAH” have been falling into such an error for either their ignorance or their unknowingness, or they have a lack of understanding and perception to truly evaluate this fact... In just the same way, this point has been mentioned in the most precise Koran Interpretation written in Turkish by Marhum Hamdi Yazir of Elmali, as follows: “The word ALLAH has never been applied to anything other than ALLAH, neither in proper form nor in common. Take the names such as “ilah” and “huda,” for example; none of them is a proper noun as “ALLAH.” They imply a concept of “god” or “lord.” It has been said “gods” as the plural form of “god”, “lords” as of “lord,” etc. In contrast, it has never been said “ALLAHS” and can never be said so. If we hear something like this from a person, we conclude that he is unknowing and unaware. The noun “GOD” is not like this; you can even call noid and false idols as “gods.” Pagans (Mushrikeen) even used to worship many gods. Some of them had so-and-so gods, others had so-and-so gods.
It is that, there is no corresponding word for “ALLAH” in other languages; the common name “GOD” cannot correspond to the proper noun “ALLAH” and is not an equivalent for “ALLAH.” Therefore one should never translate the name “ALLAH” into “GOD.” (V.1, p.24-25)
If a person imagines or assumes the presence of a separate “being” associated with “ALLAH”, no matter what term of address or conception it is given when “ALLAH” is mentioned, that is a Being known with this proper noun and is free from any concept of a “fragment” (juzz), he will fall into a state of polytheism (shirk), that is associating partners with ALLAH. In such a case, he will have acknowledged a “GOD” because of veiling the truth “ALLAH”...
The following is the sign to warn such a person against such a state:
“SET UP NO GOD BESIDES ALLAH, lest you incur disgrace and ruin... (17:22)

Here is another warning about the same situation:
INVOKE NO GOD WITH ALLAH (28:8)
It is meant that as the true Absolute Being that exists is “ALLAH”, you should avoid acting heedlessly toward the meaning of concept “ALLAH” and from falling into the state of setting up a “GOD” through assuming the Being denoted through the name “ALLAH” as a “god afar off you”... Through the acceptance of a god out there or afar off you, you will unintentionally get out of the meaning of the concept “ALLAH” and will be blocked in a “god” image... As a consequence, you will make yourself deprived of the “unity” (wahdat) comprehension that the Koran al Karim informs! This will be “the greatest oppression (zulm) done onto your own soul”!..
Hazrat Mohammed aleyhessalam (peace and blessings be upon him) proclaimed as a result of the Divine Inspiration (wahey) that he was the Rasul of Allah and he began to do his best to warn people not to worship a god... The reality that Hazrat Mohammed emphasized and began with suggesting to men through the message as “THERE IS NO GOD, THERE IS ONLY ALLAH” (La ilaha ill-Allah) was formulated as the Word of Oneness (Kalimat-it tawhid). The meaning of the statement “La ilaha ill-Allah” constitutes the basis of Islam. “La ilaha ill-Allah” can be interpreted simply as; “there is no god, there is only ALLAH.”

If we analyze the meaning of each word:
La ilaha: “La” means “there is no"; “ilah” means “god,” that is “a being to be worshipped.” Hence, “la ilaha” means “there is no being to be worshipped.” Now, let us pay attention to this fact at this point: The “Word of Oneness” begins with “La ilaha” and so, a definite degree is emphasized right in the beginning: “There is no being to be worshipped” (LA ILAHA). Then, ill-Allah follows as an explanation: “illa” meaning “only,” “ALLAH.” It does not even say, “there is ALLAH"; it simply says “only ALLAH.” This is the fact revealed from this statement first as a primary meaning: “There is no god to worship!” After definitely stating that there is no god somewhere away to worship, “illa ALLAH” follows.

The word “illa” can be understood as “ONLY” in its usage here. When using “illa” with the word “ALLAH,” it must be definitely understood as “ONLY"; because there is no other existence apart from “ALLAH” that ALLAH could be compared with it, or could be measured and defined in connection with it. This theme is widely explained in our coming book entitled “WHAT MOHAMMED READ”.
It is because of this reason that if the word “illa” comes in connection with the name “ALLAH,” it must always be translated as “ONLY.” From this point of view, the translation of the Word of Oneness into English should not be as “there is no god but ALLAH,” but “there is no god, ONLY ALLAH.” Only after then that the concept of wahdat (UNITY - ONENESS), which is the system [fundamental principal] of thought and belief that the Deen (Religion) of Islam informs, should be grasped accordingly. Statement informs that there exists only “ALLAH” and ALLAH is not a god to worship. Because it is definitely stated at the beginning that “la ilaha” — there is no being to be worshipped! Therefore, what is informed through the noun ALLAH is not a GOD outside human that to be worshipped, nor a GOD-afar-off, outside, far away from all existing things that we perceive they are there! If we precisely understand that “ALLAH is AHAD,” we will then see through insight (basirat) that there is not a duality of “an ALLAH” and “a separate universe” all aside! That is to say, it is not such that there is ALLAH and also there are universes [that exist independently]! In other words, such a consideration as there are some universes we live in, the cosmos (alam), and there is a separate GOD-out-of-all-things and at the farther side, is absolute nonsense!

MOHAMMED's ALLAH is not a GOD!

MOHAMMED's ALLAH is “AHAD!”
Having infinite expressions (meanings - mana), MOHAMMED's ALLAH is in a state of contemplating them fully at every moment! The “ONENESS” (tawhid) principal in Islam that is the BELIEF SYSTEM notified by Mohammed aleyhessalaam that “THERE IS NO GOD TO WORSHIP, there is ONLY “ALLAH” who is AHAD, and therefore no GOD ever existed,” is based on the fact that every person will be responsible for the result of his actions that are carried out through himself all through his lifetime. Accordingly, the following signs in the Koran emphasize that every person will directly receive the return of his own deeds: “And that man shall have nothing save only that for which he made effort.” (53:39) “You are requited nothing save what you did” (37:39) “You are rewarded nothing except for your deeds.” (36:54) “And for all there are degrees from what they do, that HU may pay them for their deeds and they shall not be wronged” (46:19) “Most surely you will taste the painful punishment-, this you will be responded nothing save what you did” (37:39) Since man will see only the return of practices he or she has done in this world as seen from the signs above, it must be the most urgent task for a man to make investigation about life beyond death and to understand what “ALLAH” means! When Mohammed aleyhessalaam was asked the question, what is ALLAH, the answer was directly given by “ALLAH” in the Chapter of ONENESS in the Koran:

“Say that: ALLAH is AHAD,

ALLAH is SAMED,

LAMYALID and LAMYULAD,

And LAMYAKUN LAHU QUFUWAN, AHAD.”
Let us first understand the deep rich meaning of these phrases in that Chapter that inform what MOHAMMED's ALLAH is, and then start meditating on the results of their meanings. “ALLAH is AHAD": It means ALLAH is the infinite and limitless (eternal) ONE who is unbroken and undivided into fragments or particles. Now, let us try to comprehend this notification properly! The “AHAD” who is the inseparable ONE unbroken, undivided into sections or particles (zarra), is either a limited and finite one —in this case, he dwells somewhere in the universe (!)— or is the limitless, infinite, unfragmented, whole ONE that in this case, only HU's OWN SELF alone, if I repeat, all and all HU, only HU Itself alone exists! By reasoning and by understanding, it is groundless to claim any other thing's existence apart from what is informed through the name “ALLAH” who is “AHAD!”

Take a minute to consider this:
If it were for something apart from “ALLAH,” that stands next to the one denoted by the name “ALLAH,” where would the line between such a being and “ALLAH” take part? Where would you draw such a limiting line? It is either that there is the infinite and limitless WHOLE ONE, without any additional separate being outside; or else, there is a limited and finite “GOD"(!) LOCALIZED somewhere inside or outside the universe! The most important point to comprehend now is the concept of “LIMITLESSNESS - INFINITY.” So now, let us try to comprehend the conception of “limitlessness and infinity,” not in terms of width, length and height but rather dimensionally.

In ABSOLUTE REALITY, the only ONE that exists is the infinite and eternal ONE, who is undivided and unbroken WHOLE, the AHAD! ALLAH is AHAD, as there is nothing other than “ALLAH” neither in macro nor in micro plan, and there is nothing to be HU's counterpart, like or to match HU! However, because of our dependence on our physical senses, we are fooled into thinking in which we mistakenly view the whole ONE existence to be composed of many separate parts and fragments. It must be understood that our brains’ determination results from the condition of its intersectional sensory means. However, if only a brain should not remain restricted in that very narrow range of its perception instruments’ capability… If only it could understand and interpret all the perceptional phenomena evident to the five senses as signs and samples drawn out among countless sensory experiences in the cosmos . . . If only after that he could sink into deep thought (tafaqqur) and discover what else is out there after these samples… If then he could sail to a dimensional journey into the structural depth of them . . . and meet with the cosmic self, the cosmic ESSENCE, and could even finally realize the “nonexistence” of his individual self beside this Universal Essence, in anyway... This is the most significant point of the theme!

As to the second significant detail of the theme...
MOHAMMED's ALLAH is “AHAD” meaning the infinite, limitless ONE unfragmented into parts, and this state involves all aspects and all “DIMENSIONS.” So in this case, where, in which dimension and at which starting point could a separate being presumed to exist beside HU's own being, limit ALLAH by a line and make a space for itself? Where is the place for a second being, for a GOD that would be mentioned to exist apart from “ALLAH”? Will it be inside or outside “ALLAH?” As we have already stated, “ALLAH” is limitless and infinite. Since “ALLAH” is limitless and infinite, it is an impossibility to consider HU within a CENTRAL CORE! To recognize a center of something, it ought to have its boundaries, so that the point at which all its diameters meet may be considered as its center.

Yet, “ALLAH” has no limits.
If something does not come into measurement or a limit, then it cannot have a center! If something does not have a center, neither does it have a core nor an inside and an outside! With reference to our current way of viewing the world through our five senses and our determination of substances based on our way of perceiving, we ascribe every object its external and internal parts, an inside and an outside sector. But it is senseless to talk about the core or the surface of something, an inside and an outside part of something that is not known by a center! The same information is emphasized in the Koran as in the following sign:

“HU is the First (Awvalu) and the Last (Akhiru), the Visible (Zakhiru) and the Unseen (Baatin)” (57:3)
This means: All that is known as visible and unseen, the beginning and the last is nothing other than “HU”! All those words in fact signify just a single being. That is, the distinction between visible and unseen does not really exist. They are not two separate things! Call HU the Apparent (Zakhir) or the Unseen (Batin), the First or the Last as you like, but it all is still nothing other than HU indicated, no matter whichever word you employed. Regardless of which word we employ, it is only HU that will be qualified or signified. The distinction between the visible and the unseen (i.e., physical and nonphysical) results from your five senses. You call as “visible” what you are capable of perceiving through your five senses and call the rest as “inward” as they are unseen to you. However, if you were in a condition of perceiving through more, for instance, six, seven or twelve sensory means, then your determination of all “the visible” and all “the unseen” would entirely alter! You would then likely call “visible” whatever you currently call “unseen,” and “unseen” whatever you currently call “visible.” Since what is informed through the name “ALLAH” is the limitless and infinite ONE, HU is free from the limitations of such concepts as external and internal, and from concepts of Zakhir and Batin. Of course, it cannot be mentioned for a being that defies any centers, any interiors and exteriors, any apparents and inwards, and any beginnings and ends, as it is free of all such conceptions and formations, to vanish at a particular place, so that a second separate existence should be found beyond such a point. Here due to this, we realize that in every point ever perceived or imagined, all in all, merely ALLAH being AHAD IS and only HU alone is present with HU's ESSENCE (Zhat) and thence within all HU's properties and attributes. If someone assumes the presence of a second being other than “ALLAH,” —apart from “ALLAH,” he is then entirely in a state of error resulting from an incapability of deep thinking! This state is called “POLYTHEISM” (shirk —ascribing a partner) in religious terminology! Since “ALLAH” is “AHAD,” no other being beside HU can be mentioned! Furthermore, HU cannot be referred to a time passage where HU would be considered in pieces. This is out of question, either.

“ALLAH is SAMED”
If we make a serious study, some of the deep meanings we find in the definition of the word “SAMED” are as follows: “That which has no gap, which is in perfect condition, is whole without holes and is impermeable; that which admits nothing in, nothing out”. It means “solid,” same as in that when we say “solid gold”. In other words, mere, pure, the absolute! As seen, all these statements essentially contribute and illuminate the content of the name AHAD. If so, then how should one understand the meaning of “LAMYALID”, simply meaning “HU DID NOT BEGET”... Here is what should be understood at the first sight: “ALLAH” has never given birth to a second being from HU's own being! In other way of saying, there is not an existence of a second separate being broken off ALLAH's existence! Because, HU is AHAD, the inseparable whole ONE undivided, unbroken and unfragmented into parts, elements or particles!

1- HU is limitless and infinite! Thus, it cannot be mentioned for HU to bring out a second being inside or outside Hu's self.

2- Since it is an impossibility to consider HU in parts or atoms because HU is AHAD, then there is not a second part which could be divided from HU! Therefore, the presence of a second one broken off “ALLAH,” which is meant to be begotten by HU, sharing HU's qualities even, can never be considered! Let us now understand “LAMYULAD,” simply meaning, “ALLAH WAS NOT BEGOTTEN.” At this point we are to understand that “ALLAH did not come into existence out of another being!” How can one consider the One informed through the name “ALLAH” to be brought into being by another existence? “ALLAH” is AHAD, the ONE Alone who is infinite, limitless and unfragmented into parts! To be able to think of an existence to beget “ALLAH”, “ALLAH” needs once to be known by some directional or DIMENSIONAL limits, so that beyond such limits there would be mentioned a second existence to beget HU! And only then that such a second existence could beget “ALLAH” from itself!

“ALLAH” is AHAD!
Being AHAD means being limitless and infinite Whole undivided and unfragmented into parts. Therefore, neither a vanishing point for HU nor an initiation of another existence beyond such a point can be considered. Hence, a second being to make up, to BEGET “ALLAH” cannot be mentioned. Such a consideration is an impossibility! This is what is meant by “LAMYULAD” as far as we could understand. In conclusion, neither has “ALLAH” been begotten by another being, nor has HU beget another being such as a second separate being that came out of HU.

We have come to the final notification in this description:
“LAMYAKUL-LA-HUU QUFUWAN ‘AHAD":
There is not an existence of another being after HU's macro or micro likeness; HU is matchless, peerless and is AHAD.” By the way, we should note a sign hereby: “LAYSA KAMISLIHII SHAY'A” (42:11) meaning, “neither in macro nor in micro plan, there is nothing to be compared with HU.” Meanwhile, we should also notify that significant point now in order to prevent some unfamiliar people with this subject, from falling into a mistake. In some places of the Koran, such statements as “our god” and “your god” are cited occasionally. However, each is followed by an emphasis that “god” is “ALLAH.” Well, could it be then suggested that “ALLAH” is a “god” (ilah)? No, this can never be suggested! Such kinds of statements are the clarifications made to the “worshippers of a god.”

They are being admonished that:
“Whatever they consider as “GOD” or whatever they call “GOD” does not exist at all, but it is ONLY “ALLAH” that exists in reality!” “Their god” and ours are just the same and one. Moreover, it is still “ALLAH,” and is nothing other than “ALLAH.” Of course, by such statements, it is proposed to make people cleanse their conjectural “god” images and try to understand “ALLAH.” If the Koran is looked into carefully, it is noticed that such kinds of signs are addressed to polytheists (mushrik), namely to those who assume the existence of a “GOD” despite the understanding of “ALLAH” and who worship a god.

Only then could their acceptance of a “god” translate into the understanding of “ALLAH.”

Let us now consider honestly and with moderation!
Is MOHAMMED's ALLAH introduced here the same as GOD that we either believe in or do not believe, but still name ALLAH as a conditioning in either case? Could we use the word “GOD” or a concept of GOD to replace with Hazrat MOHAMMED's “ALLAH” and could a concept of “DEITY” be allowed instead? Will they be correct? That is, what in reality has ever existed so far, that exists today and will exist tomorrow, IS the “BAKI” “WAJHAH” only, that will have been existing forever. The only veil on “WAJHAH” is however, the name given to something, that this name is a veil put on later to a meaning of the wajhah. Yet the original being behind such a veil, and the meanings that make it up take their origins from the names of “ALLAH.”
_________________
If a man has not read a news paper today, then that man is uninformed. If a man has read a news paper today, then that man is misinformed.

[truthseeker2]

To add to the above post, here are the verses that show the Bible was unaltered at the time of mohammad & also the verses showing mohammad quoting & also refering to those verses in the bible.

VERSES SHOWING THAT THE TORAH AND THE GOSPEL WERE TRUE AND UNCHANGED AT THE TIME OF MUHAMMAD.

C1. The City of Saba (Saba) 34:31, Early Meccan.

"And the unbelievers say, `We will not believe in this Qur'an, nor in that which IS between his (its) hands (the Torah and the Gospel)'..."

Note: The CAPITAL LETTERS show verbs which are in the present tense for Muhammad and his people. Italics have been used for phrases speaking of groups of Jews or Christians at the time of Muhammad spoken of as believers or unbelievers in order to emphasize that there were always some true believers who would not have changed their own scriptures.

C2. The Originator of Creation (Fatir) 35:31, Early Meccan.

"That which we have revealed to you of the Book is the truth, attesting to (the truth of) that which IS between his (its) hands (the Torah and Gospel)..."

C3. Jonah (Yunus) 10:37, Late Meccan.

"This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than God; but it is a verification of that (the Torah and Gospel) which IS between his (its) hands, and the explanation of the book, wherein there IS no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds."

C4. Joseph (Yusuf) 12:111, Late Meccan.

"...It (the Qur'an) is not a fabricated story, but a verification of that (the Torah and Gospel) which IS between his (its) hands, a detailed explanation, a guide and a mercy to the people who believe."

C5. The Cattle (Al-An`am) 6:154-157, Late Meccan.

"Then We gave Moses the Book complete as to whatever is excellent, and explaining all things in detail, and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. And this (the Qur'an) is a Book which We have revealed, blessed: so follow it and be righteous, that you may receive mercy: lest you should say, `The Book was sent down to two peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study;' or lest you should say: `If the Book (Torah and Gospel) had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they.'"

C6. The Believer (Al-Mu'min) 40:69-70, Late Meccan.

"Do you (Muhammad) not see those who dispute concerning the signs of God? How are they turned away? Those who REJECT the Book, and that (book) with which We sent our apostles, they shall know when the collars shall be around their necks, and the chains, they shall be dragged along."

C7. Winding Sand Tracts (Al-Ahqaf) 46:12, Late Meccan.

"And before this was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy: and this Book is a verification (of it) in the Arabic tongue to warn those who transgress and as glad tidings to the righteous."

C8. 46:29-30.

"Behold, We turned towards you a company of Jinns listening to the Qur'an...When the (reading) was finished they returned to their people as warners. They said, `O our people! we have heard a Book revealed after Moses attesting to (the truth of) that which IS between his (its) hands (the Torah) - guiding to the truth and to a straight path.'"

C9. The Heifer (Al-Baqara) 2:91, 2 AH.

"When it is said to them, `Believe in what God has sent down,' they say, `We believe in what was sent down to us (the Torah)': yet they reject all besides, even if it be truth attesting to (the truth of) what IS WITH THEM (the Torah)..."

C10. Family of `Imran Ali `Imran) 3:3, 2-3 AH.

"It is He (God) who sent down to thee the Book in truth, attesting to (the truth of) what IS between its (his) hands (the Bible), and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel before this as a guide to mankind."

C11. The Women (Al-Nisa') 4:162-163, 5-6 AH.

"But those of them (the Jews) that are grounded in knowledge, and the believers, BELIEVE in that which has been revealed to you (Muhammad) and in that which has been revealed before you... We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the prophets after him, and We sent inspiration to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, and to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David we gave the Psalms."

C12. Repentance (Al-Tauba) 9:111, 9 AH.

"God has bought from the believers their selves and their wealth, and for them is the garden (of Paradise) if they fight in the ways of God: and whether they kill or are killed, the promise of God IS true in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an, and who is more faithful to his promise than God?"

C13. The Table (Al-Ma'ida) 5:51, 10 AH.

"To you (Muhammad) We revealed the book in truth, attesting to (the truth of) that which IS between his (its) hands from the scripture (the Torah and Gospel), and guarding it (wa muhaiminan `alaihi)..."

We find in these verses a strong testimony to the Torah and the Gospel as being true and present at the time of Muhammad.

The Qur'an is an Arabic "verification" of the Book of Moses [C7] which is necessary because the Meccans couldn't understand what "the two peoples before" them had learned by "assiduous study"; or they would have followed it better" [C5]. Further, it is an explanation of the Torah and the Gospel "wherein there IS no doubt" [C3], and a guard over it [C13].

The Meccans say, "We will not believe in the Qur'an, nor in that which IS between its hands" of the Torah and the Gospel [C1]. Some of the Jews say that they believe only in what was sent to them even if the Qur'an attests to (the truth of) "what IS WITH THEM" [C9]. The warning is given that those who REJECT (now) the Qur'an and "that (the former books) which we sent our apostles" will be judged [C6]. "But those of the Jews who are grounded in knowledge BELIEVE" in what was revealed to Muhammad and in (the Torah) which was revealed before him [C11]; and the Jinns also believe in both the Qur'an and the Torah [C8].

In the Sura of Repentance, one of the last revelations given, it says, "The promise of God IS true in the Torah, the Gospel, and the Qur'an" [C12].

Finally it is necessary to mention the phrase "between his hands" (bain yadaihi) found in many of these verses [C2,C3,C4,C8,C10,C13 and A5,A6 above]. I have chosen to translate it word for word because that gives the sense of the present tense which it has. Sometimes it has the literal meaning "between or in his hands", but usually it is an idiom for "in his presence", or "in his power", or "in his possession", or "at his disposal". Examples are "The words are between your hands", meaning "you have the floor" or "you may speak". "No weapons are between his hands", meaning "he is unarmed". Sura 34:12 speaks of Solomon and "the Jinns who worked between his hands". In the text Yusuf Ali translates this passage as "worked in front of him", but in a note he explains, the Jinns "worked under his eyes".

The sense of these verses, therefore is that the Qur'an has come to confirm, attest to and verify the Torah and the Gospel which are now "in its presence" or "before its eyes". With the other verses discussed above from this section they show that Muhammad acknowledged the existence of a valid Torah and Gospel "under his eyes".


D. VERSES WHERE MUHAMMAD ACTUALLY QUOTES OR APPEALS TO THE TORAH AND/OR THE GOSPEL.

D1. The Star (Najm) 53:33-38, Early Meccan.

"Do you (Muhammad) see the one who turns back? Gives a little, then hardens (his heart)? What has he knowledge of the unseen so that he can see? Nay, IS he not acquainted with what IS in the books of Moses and of Abraham who fulfilled his engagements? - namely that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another."

D2. The Poets (Al-Shu`ara') 26:192-197, Middle Meccan.

"Verily this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. The Spirit of faith came down upon your heart with it that you might be one of the warners in the plain Arabic tongue. And truly it IS in the Scriptures (Zubur) of the former people. IS it not a sign to them that the learned of the Children of Israel RECOGNIZE it."

D3. Ta-Ha 20:133, Middle Meccan from -7 AH.

"They (the Meccans) say, `Why does he not bring us a sign from his Lord?' What! Has not a clear sign come to them in what IS in the former pages (al-suhuf al-aulla )?"

According to Baidawi's commentary on this verse - The "former pages" refers to "the Torah and the Gospel and all the divine books."

D4. The Prophets (Al-Anbiya') 21:7, Middle Meccan.

"And before thee (Muhammad), We sent no one, except men, to whom We granted revelation. ASK (plural) the people of the Scripture message, if you don't know."

D5. The Prophets (Al-Anbiya') 21:105, Middle Meccan.

"Before this We wrote in the Psalms, after the Message (given to Moses): `My servants, the righteous, shall inherit the earth.'"

This is a direct quotation from Psalm 37:29 which reads, "The righteous shall inherit the earth and dwell therein forever." When considered with the preceding quotation from the same Sura (21:7), it is clear that, according to the Qur'an, God is quoting from the Psalms as still present and true at the time of Muhammad.

D6. Gold Adornments (Al-Zukhruf) 43:44-45, Late Meccan.

"The (Qur'an) is indeed a message for you (Muhammad) and your people, (all of) you shall be brought to account, and ASK those of our apostles whom we sent before thee, `Did We appoint any deities other than the Most Merciful whom they should worship?'"

According to Baidawi, Jelaleddin, and Yusuf Ali, "ask those of our apostles whom we sent before thee" means enquire of their people - those learned in their writings and doctrines. Therefore those writings and doctrines were clearly available in Muhammad's time.

D7. Jonah (Yunus) 10:94, Late Meccan.

"If you (Muhammad) are in doubt regarding that which We have revealed to thee, ASK those who READ the book from before you..."

D8. The Bee (Al-Nahl) 16:43-44, Late Meccan.

"And We have not sent before you (Muhammad) other than men to whom we granted revelation. And (all of you) ASK the people of the (Scripture) Message if you don't know."

D9. The Children of Israel (Bani Isra'il) 17:101, Late Meccan from -1 AH.

"To Moses We gave nine clear signs. ASK (O Muhammad) the Children of Israel..."

D10. 17:107-108.

"Say, `Whether you believe in it (the Qur'an) or not (O Meccans), it is true that those to whom knowledge came before it, when they hear it recited unto them fall down upon their faces worshiping... and it increases their humility."

D11. Thunder (Al-Ra`d) 13:43, Late Meccan.

"And those who disbelieve say, `You (Muhammad) are not sent.' Say, `God is sufficient as a witness between me and you, and also he who HAS the knowledge of the book.'"

D12. The Heights (Al-A`raf) 7:156-157, Late Meccan.

"And I will write down (my mercy) for those who are righteous and give alms and who believe in our signs; who follow the apostle, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in the Torah and the Gospel that IS WITH THEM."

D13. The Heights (Al-A`raf) 7:159, Late Meccan.

"Of the people of Moses there is a group (umma) who guide with truth and judge by it."

D14. 7:168-170, Late Meccan.

"He broke them (the Jews) up into sections on this earth. Some of them are righteous, and some of them are not. We have tried them with blessings and with adversities in order that they might return to Us...What! has there not been taken from them the covenant of the Book, that they should not say of God other than the truth, and they diligently STUDY that which is therein... As to those (Jews) who HOLD FAST by the Book and observe prayer; verily We shall not detract from the reward of the righteous."

D15. The Heifer (Al-Baqara) 2:113, 2 AH.

"The Jews say, `The Christians are not (founded) upon anything.' And the Christians say, `The Jews are not (founded) upon anything.' And yet they READ the Book"

D16. The Family of `Imran (Ali `Imran) 3:23, 2-3 AH.

"Do you not see those to whom a portion of the Book came. They were called to the Book of God (Torah) that it might judge between them. Then a party of them turned aside and declined."

The commentators refer this verse to various incidents, but they agree that a dispute was submitted by the Jews to Muhammad for arbitration. He proposed to these Jews to determine the question by actual reference to their Scriptures, but they refused and went away.

D17. 3:79.

"It is not for a man to whom is given the Book and wisdom and prophecy that he should then say to people, `Be worshipers of me in place of God.' But rather, `Be true teachers** (rabbaniyin), since you teach the Book and you STUDY it earnestly.'"

(**Every translator is different here. I followed Masson)

D18. 3:93-94. "All food was lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel made unlawful for itself before the Torah was revealed. Say, `BRING the Torah and READ it, if you are men of truth.' If any, after this, invent a lie and attribute it to God, they are indeed transgressors."

D19. The Women (Al-Nisa') 4:60, 5-6 AH.

"Have you (Muhammad) not seen those who fancy that they believe in that which hath been revealed unto thee, and in that which has been revealed before thee? They desire to go for a mutual decision unto the Taghut (an idol); yet verily they have been commanded (in the Torah) to disbelieve therein, and Satan desires to deceive them into a wide deception."

D20. The Victory (Al-Fath) 48:29, 6 AH.

"On their faces (of the Muslim believers) are their marks, the traces of their bowing (in worship). This IS their likeness in the Torah; and their likeness in the Gospel IS like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong. It then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, and delights the sower."

This seems to be a definite allusion to Jesus' words as recorded in Mark 4:26-28 which reads:

"and he said, `This is what the kingdom of God is like. A man scatters seed on the ground... all by itself the soil produces grain - first the blade, then the head, and then the full kernel in the head. As soon as the grain is ripe he puts the sickle to it because the harvest has come.'"

D21. The Table (Al-Ma'ida) 5;46, 10 AH.

"But why do they (the Jews) come to thee for decision, when they HAVE the Torah in which IS the command of God."

D22. 5:48, 10 AH.

"We ordained therein for them (the Jews): `Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.' But if any one REMITS the retaliation by way of charity, it IS an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to JUDGE by what God has revealed, they are wrong-doers."

Here the Qur'an quotes God as repeating the law which He gave to Moses in the Torah Exodus 21:23-25 where He ordered,

"...You are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Then the Jews of Medina are warned, "if any fail to JUDGE by (the Torah) ... they are wrong-doers".

D23. 5:50, 10 AH.

"And let the People of the Gospel JUDGE by what God has revealed in it. If any fail to judge by what God has revealed, they are licentious."

D24. 5:68-71, 10 AH.

"If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, we should have blotted out their sins and admitted them to gardens of bliss." "If only they had performed the Torah and the Gospel and all that was revealed to them from their Lord, they would have eaten from above and from under their feet. Among them is a People (umma) on the right course, but evil is that which many of them do..." "Say, O People of the Book! You are not (founded) on anything until you PERFORM the Torah and the Gospel, and what was revealed to you from your Lord."

In the above verses there is a continuing testimony to the presence during Muhammad's lifetime, of a true Torah and Gospel, recognized by the Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

In Mecca an unbeliever who turns away IS acquainted with what IS in the books of Moses and Abraham [D1]. A clear sign has come to them in "what IS in the former pages" [D3], and Muhammad appeals to "he who HAS knowledge of the Book" [D11].

It is stated that the coming of the Qur'an "IS in the scripture of the former people" and "the learned of the Children of Israel RECOGNIZE it" [D2]. Those to whom knowledge came before BELIEVE in it [D10]. Some Jews are righteous and "hold fast by the book" [D14], but there are others who do not accept Muhammad even though "they diligently STUDY" their book [D14].

Both the Jews and Christians "READ the book" [D15], and "STUDY it earnestly" [D17].

There are some righteous Jews [D14] who GUIDE with truth and JUDGE by it [D13], and among the Jews and Christians is a people on the right course [D24].

Meccans are told, "ASK the People of the Scripture message if you don't know" [D4,D8], and "ASK those of our Apostles whom we sent" - that is ask their people who are learned in their writings and doctrines [D6].

Muhammad is told, "ASK those who READ the Book from before you, if you are in doubt" [D7], and "ASK the Children of Israel" about the nine clear signs given to Moses [D9].

According to other passages God repeats commands from the Torah, warning the Jews to JUDGE by them [D22], and quotes from the Psalms of David [D5]. He appeals to worshiping as the likeness of Muslim believers which is to be found in the Torah, and alludes to growing seed in the Gospel of Jesus as the likeness of believers from the Gospel [D20].

Muhammad tells the Jews to bring the Torah that "it might JUDGE between them" [D16]. On another occasion he tells them, "BRING the Torah and READ it if you are men of truth" [D18].

God asks Muhammad why the Jews come to him for judgement when "they HAVE the Torah in which IS the command of God" [D21]; and the Christians are told to "JUDGE by what God has revealed in it (the Gospel)" [D23].

God speaks of "the Torah and the Gospel that IS WITH THEM" [D12]. And in the last Sura which came to Muhammad - the Sura of the Table (Al-Ma'ida) from 10 AH - both Jews and Christians are told "you are not (founded) on anything until you PERFORM the Torah and the Gospel, and what was revealed to you from your Lord" [D24].

One of the commentators, Ibn Ishaq, relates the following Hadith concerning this passage [D24]. He says:

"Rafi son of Haritha and Salam Ibn Mashkum and two others, came to Muhammad and said to him, `O Muhammad! do you not claim to be a follower of the religion of Abraham and of his faith, and do you not believe in that which we have of the Torah and do you not testify that it is truly from God.'

"He replied, `Yes, in truth, but you have invented new doctrines, and you deny that which is therein regarding which a covenant was taken from you; and you conceal what you have been commanded to show to mankind. Therefore, I separate myself from your new ideas.'

"They said, `And as for us, we hold by that which is in our hands, and we follow the truth and guidance; and we do not believe in you and we will not follow you.'

"Then the great and glorious God revealed, `Say, O People of the Book! You are not (founded) on anything until you perform the Torah and the Gospel and what was revealed to you from your Lord.'"

If this hadith is true then, by itself, it proves that Muhammad believed in the Torah available to the Jews in Medina in 10 AH. And, even if it is not a strong hadith, it is an important testimony to the fact that Muslims of the first and second century of the Hejira knew about a valid Torah and Gospel with them in Arabia.

With or without the above hadith, the 24 passages which we have looked at in this section and the 13 from the previous section, make a total of 37 quotations which testify to a true Torah and Gospel being available to the people of Mecca and Medina while Muhammad was alive.

Muslims may claim that the true Torah and true Gospel, which were present in Arabia, are different from those presently available. But where are they?!? Surely some Muslim would have preserved such important books in one of the many Muslim libraries found throughout the Islamic world, even if only to help the Jews and Christians obey the Quranic instruction to "perform the Torah and the Gospel". Moreover, we would then be able to compare them with the copies which have been preserved by the Jews and Christians.

In fact, this is not the case. No such ancient copies have been preserved by the Muslims. Over the whole world there is only one Torah, which IS WITH both Jews and Christians, and one book called the Gospel. which IS WITH the Christians.


E. VERSES WHICH SAY THE TORAH AND/OR THE GOSPEL ARE GOOD.

Some 55 other Quranic passages also speak of the Torah and the Gospel, but since they neither deny or affirm the presence of these books at the time of Muhammad, only their verse references are listed.

As an example of this type of passage let us look at the following verse from the Sura of the Women (Al-Nisa') 4:136, 5-6 AH. It reads:

"O ye who believe! Believe in God and His apostle, and the book which He has sent to His apostle and the book (Torah) which He sent down from before."

When taken by itself, we cannot tell whether Muhammad is commanding the Muslims to believe in a Torah which is present with them while Muhammad is speaking, or only to believe that God gave Moses a true Torah which was "sent down from before" and could have been changed at a later date.

Here are the references, listed from the earliest to the latest:

74:31, 87:18, 25:35, 35:25, 34:23-24, 54:43, 37:114-117, 19:28-29, 21:48, 29:27, 29.46-47, 32:23, 40:53-55, 41:45, 42:15, 45:16-17, 45:28-29, 46:10, 11:16-17, 28:43, 28:48-49, 28:52-53, 23:49, 13:36, 17:2, 17:4-7, 17:55, 6:20, 6:114, 6:124, 98:1, 2:1-5, 2:53, 2:87, 2:121, 2:136, 2:144-145, 2:176, 2:213, 2:285, 3:65, 3:81, 3:84, 3:99, 3:119, 3:183-184, 3:187, 62:5, 4:51, 4:54, 4:131 4:136, 4:150-153, 4:171, 57:25, 5:62, 5:85-86.
_________________
If a man has not read a news paper today, then that man is uninformed. If a man has read a news paper today, then that man is misinformed.

[Islamis_Allah_Tashit]

[sum]

A bit more -

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49754&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 below

How can the previous scriptures be corrupt?

Your still calling Allah a liar because with scientific technologies such as carbon dating and text analysis we found that the

Codex Alexandrinus (Entire Bible) dates to 400 AD (Thats 200 years before allah said the bible is uncorrupt)

Codex Sinaiticus(Entire Bible) dates to 350 AD (Thats 250 years before allah said the bible was uncorrupt)

Codex Vaticanus(Entire Bible) dates to 325-350 AD (Thats 275-250 years before allah said the bible was uncorrupt)

Diatessaron by Tatian (Gospels) dates to 200 AD (Thats 400 years before allah said the bible was uncorrupt)

Chester Beatty Papyri (New Testament) dates to 200 AD (Thats 400 years before allah said the bible was uncorrupt)

Bodmer Papyrus II (John) dates to 150-200 AD (Thats 450-400 years before allah said the bible was uncorrupt)

(NOTE: We have all these manuscripts here today in the year 2007)

And most importantly we have a copy of Matthew 26 (Magdalene Manuscript) which dates 50-60 AD and in this chapter the Messiah says "the Son of Man must die, as the Scriptures declared long ago." also it talks about Yahshuas divinity and his arrest.

Ive only mentioned a few manuscripts, theres thousands of others which also predate Islam. They might be in different languages, text styles but they all share the same message of salvation through the Messiah.

QUESTION TO MUSLIMS

In light of all this are we expected to throw away everything the professors, scientists, archeologist's and polygraphists have to say about this matter and believe the words of a desert Arab who lived 600+ years after the fact?
_________________
Norm, that was a good summary. About the only thing to add is that due to us having so many manuscripts, if there is an copying error in one text we have another without that error.

Example: in about 400AD a scribe misspelled ONE LETTER in a word, in 1Cor13:3. The original word was "kauchesomai", meaning "boast", a common word Paul would use. But the scribe changed it to "kauthesomai", which means "to be burned".

So we have a few copies with one spelling, but others with the other spelling, and in one of the copies, both the ch and the th were combined (which in Greek is one letter each).

Get this: the "th" misspelling produced a verb tense WHICH DID NOT EXIST IN THE FIRST CENTURY. So that's how we could tell which text had the error, and which one was right.

God thinks of everything, to preserve His Word.


2. The Koran has many references that confirm the Torah and the Gospels as unchanged. In fact Mo encouraged his followers to believe in them:

2:41 "that I have sent down, confirming that which is with you"
2:89 "a Book from God, confirming what was with them"
2:91 "it is the truth confirming what is with them"
2:97 "he it was that brought it down upon they heart by the leave of God, confirming what was before it"
2:101 "when there has come to them a Messenger from God confirming what was with them"
3:3 "He has sent down upon thee the Book with the truth, confirming what was before it"
3:50 "likewise confirming the truth of the Torah that is before me"
3:81 "then there shall come to you a Messenger confirming what is with you"
4:47 "believe in what We have sent down, confirming what is with you"
5:46 "We sent... Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him"
5:46 "wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it"
5:48 "We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, confirming the Book that was before it"
6:92 "a Book We have sent down, blessed and confirming that which was before it"
35:31 "that We have revealed to thee of the Book is the truth, confirming what is before it"
46:30 "we have heard a Book that was sent down after Moses, confirming what was before it"
61:6 "Israel, I am indeed the Messenger of God to you, confirming the Torah"

sum

[ygalg]

dear sam

I find 2:41 a bit starnge.

2:40

[Nicolei]

[reletomp]

it was known to muslim the aqsa mosque before muhammad made the nightly trip to it.
actually the prophet met the other prophets inside the mosque and made salat and discussed world issues.
it is known as aqsa because it was far from muslims but it is the temple of god built by solomon.
the rock is the holy of holies from which prophet ascended to heaven with gabriel.


you are running away from the topic that the bible was corrupted in at least verse isaiah from:

who is blind in my prophet to
who is blind like my prophet.
a great change in meaning not acceptable.
the wrong bible and the wrong verse is still enforced till now.
Only Quran reveal the changes happened to the bible made by the evil rabbies through ancient history.

[manfred]

[reletomp]

al aqsa was first built as a tabernacle (large tent) by Moses, and built in jerusalem in a permanent place by David and solomon. it was rebuilt in 650 by Khalif Omar, and the Dome on the rock was finalized in 712 AD.
ka'ab al-ahbar a head of cohins of yemen helped find the exact place of the congregation ( aqsa mosque) and the rock (holy of holies-the stone built by no man's hand!).
the dome of the rock is the most glorious artitecure building ever built by man. seeing is believing

[manfred]

[reletomp]

the tabernacle was a moving temple (mosque) idiot.
it was a large tent that housed the holy bible!

later the tabernacle was built from stones over the bible on the hill in jerusalem.

Al-Aqsa Mosque (the praying temple- the synogogue, the temple of god, what ever you name it in different languages is the Aqsa Mosque stupid.