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Fathom
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 4062
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 Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| shoeshiner wrote: |
| Fathom wrote: |
"Since God can do anything, then God can create a rock that he cannot lift.
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You would think that he could, because he can do anything, but he can't, which points to the absurdity of a being who can do anything and the fact that any being is bound by logic.
Our difference is in our belief that if there was a god that could do anything, then could he or could he not create a stone that he could lift. You believe that he could and I believe that it's impossible to do so since it goes against logic. And you claim that god is beyond logic and therefore he can do illogical things. But I claim that it's impossible for any being to go beyond logic. That's where our differences are and so lets just agree to disagree on this.  |
Agreeing to disagree is always agreeable, as I'm sure you'll agree to agree with me, as far as this disagreement is concerned.
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shoeshiner
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 4684
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| Fathom wrote: |
| shoeshiner wrote: |
| Fathom wrote: |
"Since God can do anything, then God can create a rock that he cannot lift.
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You would think that he could, because he can do anything, but he can't, which points to the absurdity of a being who can do anything and the fact that any being is bound by logic.
Our difference is in our belief that if there was a god that could do anything, then could he or could he not create a stone that he could lift. You believe that he could and I believe that it's impossible to do so since it goes against logic. And you claim that god is beyond logic and therefore he can do illogical things. But I claim that it's impossible for any being to go beyond logic. That's where our differences are and so lets just agree to disagree on this. |
Agreeing to disagree is always agreeable, as I'm sure you'll agree to agree with me, as far as this disagreement is concerned.
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Like I said, you are killing me softly.
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"The curse of man, and cause of nearly all of his woes, is his stupendous capacity for believing the incredible."
H. L. Mencken |
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Anti-Jihad
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3356
Location: US of A
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| Fathom wrote: |
| Hope of a better life after they die. |
The first name that jumped at me after reading this was Ahmed Bahgat
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| XXX wrote: |
| Facts for you. There is only 1 country in the world, that comes even close to Shariah law and it is Saudi. |
There is so much hatred in Islam that it even turns on itself. |
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Fathom
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 4062
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| Anti-Jihad wrote: |
| Fathom wrote: |
| Hope of a better life after they die. |
The first name that jumped at me after reading this was Ahmed Bahgat |
What can we do with the Ahmed Bahgat's of the world? They live so in fear of hell because of their religion that they cannot escape the concept under any circumstances.
Should we continue to mock the Ahmed Bahgat's of the world, of which we are all guilty of doing? These people are so psychologically entrapped by fear that all logic and common sense eludes them constantly, and they really can't help it much at all.
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bob
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 3051
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Fathom writes:
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Look, I understand what you are saying, but think of it this way;
If God can do anything, then he can render all logic invalid |
Hmm, God is beginning to sound more and more like a creationist..
If God can do ANYTHING, can he commit suicide? I wish he would..
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"Ecrasez l'infâme!" |
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Fathom
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 4062
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| bob wrote: |
Fathom writes:
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Look, I understand what you are saying, but think of it this way;
If God can do anything, then he can render all logic invalid |
Hmm, God is beginning to sound more and more like a creationist..
If God can do ANYTHING, can he commit suicide? I wish he would.. |
Yes, if God can do anything, then he can commit suicide.
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Psycho Bunny
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 7620
Location: Apologies to Ali but to everyone else: I'M BACK!!!!
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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A hypothetical - if God can commit suicide, could he bring himself back to life afterwards?
If he could bring himself back to life, had he really been dead in the first place?
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The Pagaal Chamar Bhangi Khargosh rules!!
Love, bunny-style
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bob
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 3051
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Psycho Bunny wrote: |
A hypothetical - if God can commit suicide, could he bring himself back to life afterwards?
If he could bring himself back to life, had he really been dead in the first place? |
Oh Gawd, I forgot all about that! Yes, he's already resurrected himself once and he could do it again I suppose.
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"Ecrasez l'infâme!" |
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Fathom
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 4062
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Psycho Bunny wrote: |
A hypothetical - if God can commit suicide, could he bring himself back to life afterwards?
If he could bring himself back to life, had he really been dead in the first place? |
That's the paradox. If he can do anything, then he can commit suicide, be actually dead, and bring himself back to life again.
The fact that this God is proclaimed as being able to do anything excuses this God from being subjected to the scrutiny of logic and reason.
Nobody says we have to like it or agree with it, but that does not excuse the truth of the matter.
Can you imagine if this God actually existed and made our logic and reasoning work whereas 1 + 1 = 5, insomuch that if anyone who said 1 + 1 = 2 would be viewed as one who is illogical?
Imagine if this God existed, and the 1 + 1 = 2 situation is only an illusion? To all of us, 1 + 1 = 2, but is it true only because we perceive it to be true?
Or are we all deceived? Is 1 + 1 = 2 the truth? What if 1 + 1 = more than 2?
If no two things are perfectly identical, then the substance of 1 may vary to the substance of another 1, and if added together the accounting of both would exceed the substance of 2, if the first 1 is the benchmark for the accounting of 1.
Therefore, you would have more than 2. So then does 1 + 1 always = 2? Or, it is just a matter of perception?
Is logic an ongoing evolutionary process?
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Last edited by Fathom on Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:02 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Psycho Bunny
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 7620
Location: Apologies to Ali but to everyone else: I'M BACK!!!!
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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I would suggest that a definition of death would be a cessation of all normal activities associated with a being. Including having will-power.
If God intended to kill himself through suicide, it would be a choice to cease all activities including those to sustain life - the definition of permanent death.
Therefore, God would not be able to resurrect himself unless he has rewritten natural definitions of death (which as you will say he can do). However, as we are talking about hypotheticals, I mean committing suicide in a permanent and irreversible way.
To revive himself, God would have to retain willpower and volunteer to resurrect himself. But by my definition of suicide, he would have made a permanent and unchangeable action when he chose to kill himself.
If he chooses to change this state to become alive again, he would have to have retained his willpower, which would mean that he had not extinguished his life and whole being fully - the definition (my definition) of suicide.
So therefore either God is a cheat or a liar, or the definitions of suicide and of life are flawed.
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The Pagaal Chamar Bhangi Khargosh rules!!
Love, bunny-style
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Fathom
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 4062
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Psycho Bunny wrote: |
I would suggest that a definition of death would be a cessation of all normal activities associated with a being. Including having will-power.
If God intended to kill himself through suicide, it would be a choice to cease all activities including those to sustain life - the definition of permanent death.
Therefore, God would not be able to resurrect himself unless he has rewritten natural definitions of death (which as you will say he can do). However, as we are talking about hypotheticals, I mean committing suicide in a permanent and irreversible way.
To revive himself, God would have to retain willpower and volunteer to resurrect himself. But by my definition of suicide, he would have made a permanent and unchangeable action when he chose to kill himself.
If he chooses to change this state to become alive again, he would have to have retained his willpower, which would mean that he had not extinguished his life and whole being fully - the definition (my definition) of suicide.
So therefore either God is a cheat or a liar, or the definitions of suicide and of life are flawed. |
But if this God could do anything, then he could certainly do things which exceed your comprehension, knowledge, and logical capabilities.
Is it possible that your current state of knowledge is insufficient to comprehend the infinite possibilities of this God? If this God can do anything, then he can do things unknown to us, and with a knowledge completely alien to our species.
1 + 1 will only = 2 in a perfect world.
True or False?
As a caveman, standing on the plains of Africa eons before the concept of mathematics was conceived, if you seen a small lion coming at you, you will see 1. His size would be the benchmark of your accounting of him.
But if another much larger lion came in behind him, would you see 2? Or, would the size of the 2nd lion have you see the accounting of the 2 as being far greater than 2?
If the accounting of the 1st lion were the benchmark of 1, then if the accounting of the much larger 2nd lion were added to the benchmark, the result would be much more lion than 2.
It's a matter of perception, and with this perception, 1 + 1 does not always = 2. This can mean that 1 + 1 could = 5, or any number.
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Psycho Bunny
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 7620
Location: Apologies to Ali but to everyone else: I'M BACK!!!!
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Fathom wrote: |
| Psycho Bunny wrote: |
I would suggest that a definition of death would be a cessation of all normal activities associated with a being. Including having will-power.
If God intended to kill himself through suicide, it would be a choice to cease all activities including those to sustain life - the definition of permanent death.
Therefore, God would not be able to resurrect himself unless he has rewritten natural definitions of death (which as you will say he can do). However, as we are talking about hypotheticals, I mean committing suicide in a permanent and irreversible way.
To revive himself, God would have to retain willpower and volunteer to resurrect himself. But by my definition of suicide, he would have made a permanent and unchangeable action when he chose to kill himself.
If he chooses to change this state to become alive again, he would have to have retained his willpower, which would mean that he had not extinguished his life and whole being fully - the definition (my definition) of suicide.
So therefore either God is a cheat or a liar, or the definitions of suicide and of life are flawed. |
But if this God could do anything, then he could certainly do things which exceed your comprehension, knowledge, and logical capabilities.
Is it possible that your current state of knowledge is insufficient to comprehend the infinite possibilities of this God? If this God can do anything, then he can do things unknown to us, and with a knowledge completely alien to our species.
1 + 1 will only = 2 in a perfect world.
True or False?
As a caveman, standing on the plains of Africa eons before the concept of mathematics was conceived, if you seen a small lion coming at you, you will see 1. His size would be the benchmark of your accounting of him.
But if another much larger lion came in behind him, would you see 2? Or, would the size of the 2nd lion have you see the accounting of the 2 as being far greater than 2?
If the accounting of the 1st lion were the benchmark of 1, then if the accounting of the much larger 2nd lion were added to the benchmark, the result would be much more lion than 2.
It's a matter of perception, and with this perception, 1 + 1 does not always = 2. This can mean that 1 + 1 could = 5, or any number. |
My challenge to this God is to commit suicide in the sense of "die irreversibly". For him then to reanimate himself, he would have cheated me, and I would want (at least) an apology from him.
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The Pagaal Chamar Bhangi Khargosh rules!!
Love, bunny-style
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Fathom
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 4062
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| Psycho Bunny wrote: |
| Fathom wrote: |
| Psycho Bunny wrote: |
I would suggest that a definition of death would be a cessation of all normal activities associated with a being. Including having will-power.
If God intended to kill himself through suicide, it would be a choice to cease all activities including those to sustain life - the definition of permanent death.
Therefore, God would not be able to resurrect himself unless he has rewritten natural definitions of death (which as you will say he can do). However, as we are talking about hypotheticals, I mean committing suicide in a permanent and irreversible way.
To revive himself, God would have to retain willpower and volunteer to resurrect himself. But by my definition of suicide, he would have made a permanent and unchangeable action when he chose to kill himself.
If he chooses to change this state to become alive again, he would have to have retained his willpower, which would mean that he had not extinguished his life and whole being fully - the definition (my definition) of suicide.
So therefore either God is a cheat or a liar, or the definitions of suicide and of life are flawed. |
But if this God could do anything, then he could certainly do things which exceed your comprehension, knowledge, and logical capabilities.
Is it possible that your current state of knowledge is insufficient to comprehend the infinite possibilities of this God? If this God can do anything, then he can do things unknown to us, and with a knowledge completely alien to our species.
1 + 1 will only = 2 in a perfect world.
True or False?
As a caveman, standing on the plains of Africa eons before the concept of mathematics was conceived, if you seen a small lion coming at you, you will see 1. His size would be the benchmark of your accounting of him.
But if another much larger lion came in behind him, would you see 2? Or, would the size of the 2nd lion have you see the accounting of the 2 as being far greater than 2?
If the accounting of the 1st lion were the benchmark of 1, then if the accounting of the much larger 2nd lion were added to the benchmark, the result would be much more lion than 2.
It's a matter of perception, and with this perception, 1 + 1 does not always = 2. This can mean that 1 + 1 could = 5, or any number. |
My challenge to this God is to commit suicide in the sense of "die irreversibly". For him then to reanimate himself, he would have cheated me, and I would want (at least) an apology from him. |
The key words are "Can he."
And yes he can.
But he wont.
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Max4001
Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| shoeshiner wrote: |
| Fathom wrote: |
I have no particular beliefs but, why couldn't God make a rock too heavy for himself to lift? Is it because if he couldn't lift it he wouldn't be all-powerful?
All it proves is that such a God would be so all-powerful that he could create a rock that even he couldn't lift. It does not exclude that he could be all powerful enough to make changes whereas he could then lift that rock. |
The "Can god create a rock that he cannot lift" scenario presupposes that an all-powerful god tries all avenues with all his might and knowledge, in order to be able to lift the rock, but fails. Your scenario is different. |
I would disagree with the speculation. God can only do anything that is logically possible. He cannot make a square circle or do things against his nature |
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