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Islamis_Allah_Tashit
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 4384
Location: A Holiday Inn bathroom
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 Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: Discussion: shooting stars chasing jinn with A Submitter |
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Dear "A Submitter", I will use Yusuf Ali as the translator as he is the most popular, but if you prefer a different translator, that will be considered. The only thing that I ask is that you remain consistent. Don't swap back and forth between different translators with each different verse. If you agree to Yusuf Ali, then we will stick with Yusuf Ali.
I'll start by telling how I even saw the problem that I am indicating in this thread. It came from a respected Islamic website, not an anti Islamic website.
http://www.islamawareness.net/Jinn/world.html
| Quote: |
One of the most frequent activities associated with the Jinn, is fortune telling. Before the advent of the Prophet (saws) fortune-tellers and soothsayers were wide spread. These people would use their associates from the Jinn to find out about the future. The Jinns would go to the lowest heaven and listen to the Angels conversing amongst themselves about events of the Future which they heard from Allah. The Jinns would then inform the fortune-tellers. This is why before the time of the Prophet (saws) many fortune-tellers were very accurate in their predictions. However, upon the Prophet's arrival the heavens were guarded intensely by the Angels, and any Jinn who tried to listen was attacked by meteors (shooting stars):
"And We have guarded it (the heavens) from every accursed devil, except one who is able to snatch a hearing and he is pursued by a brightly burning flame"
(Surah Al-Hijr 15:1
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Now, I have used other Muslims to explain the meaning associated with the following verses
15:16 It is We Who have set out the zodiacal signs in the heavens, and made them fair-seeming to (all) beholders;
15:17 And (moreover) We have guarded them from every evil spirit accursed:
15:18 But any that gains a hearing by stealth, is pursued by a flaming fire, bright (to see).
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37:6 We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,-
37:7 (For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits,
37:8 (So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side,
37:9 Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty,
37:10 Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.
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67:5 And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
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72:8 'And we pried into the secrets of heaven; but we found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires.
72:9 'We used, indeed, to sit there in (hidden) stations, to (steal) a hearing; but any who listen now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.
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So now, that I have told you what other Muslims think that these verses mean, I will ask you to explain what YOU think they are referring to
In fairness, i will give you a simple and basic scientific explanation of shooting stars from NASA's child answers section. Let;s see if you can figure out the problem, and then we can continue after you explain what these verses are referring to.
http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question12.html
Good luck.
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A_submitter
Joined: 06 May 2008
Posts: 157
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry about that.My computer was busted for alost a week. Were does it say anything about shooting stars? |
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Islamis_Allah_Tashit
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 4384
Location: A Holiday Inn bathroom
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| A_submitter wrote: |
| Sorry about that.My computer was busted for alost a week. Were does it say anything about shooting stars? |
Well, here are the characteristics we glean from those verses.
First of all, they are flames.
Second of all, they are visible flames that we can see.
Third, they are in the sky.
Fourth, they pursue or at least appear to pursue something.
Fifth, they are fired at something or at least appear that way.
So what else matches all of this criteria besides meteors/shooting stars? Shooting stars matches every single characteristic given. If you wish to provide an alternate meaning, then you need to satisfy every single characteristic given like meteors/shooting stars do. Otherwise, we clearly accept the obvious interpretation.
I showed you the article where even the Muslim author agrees with me that it is clearly talking about shooting stars. It just seems as though he skipped science class for recitations of the Quran because he doesn't even understand the grave error behind it. Where do you think i even discovered this error from? It was from reading that article while I was reading about the jinn. as soon as I saw shooting stars, I thought to myself "oh my God, is he kidding or something?". But he wasn't kidding at all, and upon finding all of the relevant verses, he was indeed correct. The Quran was talking about shooting stars. It couldn't be more obvious.
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Quranandscience
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Islamis_Allah_Tashit wrote: |
Well, here are the characteristics we glean from those verses.
First of all, they are flames.
Second of all, they are visible flames that we can see.
Third, they are in the sky.
Fourth, they pursue or at least appear to pursue something.
Fifth, they are fired at something or at least appear that way.
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1. The Blazing Fire is not Meteors, Its you Feeling which is being burnt.
2. Yes they are Visible , we can see all in FFI ,there hearts burning.
3. Fortune tellers use the Sky to tell about God, But Allahs Revelation is like a Bright Light , which flames there thinking. and Fortune tellers are proved wrong .
4. When they Try to Hear about Revelation , They Pursued the Flaming Fire in there hearths.
5. It is fired on unbelievers , and it is appearing that it is fired on you too
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Quran doesn't have a single scientific error. |
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Islamis_Allah_Tashit
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 4384
Location: A Holiday Inn bathroom
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quranandscience wrote: |
| Islamis_Allah_Tashit wrote: |
Well, here are the characteristics we glean from those verses.
First of all, they are flames.
Second of all, they are visible flames that we can see.
Third, they are in the sky.
Fourth, they pursue or at least appear to pursue something.
Fifth, they are fired at something or at least appear that way.
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1. The Blazing Fire is not Meteors, Its you Feeling which is being burnt. |
Mubeen?
| Quranandscience wrote: |
2. Yes they are Visible , we can see all in FFI ,there hearts burning. |
Mubeen?
| Quranandscience wrote: |
3. Fortune tellers use the Sky to tell about God, But Allahs Revelation is like a Bright Light , which flames there thinking. and Fortune tellers are proved wrong . |
It never says it's something "like" a bright light, it says it's a flame, bright to see. Where does "like" come from? It's your invention.
| Quranandscience wrote: |
4. When they Try to Hear about Revelation , They Pursued the Flaming Fire in there hearths. |
You just said "they pursued", but it says "they ARE pursued". See the difference? See the little game you are attempting? See how it's not going to work?
| Quranandscience wrote: |
5. It is fired on unbelievers , and it is appearing that it is fired on you too |
Gee, that's funny. Maybe you should fire it again, because I don't see any flames nor do I feel any. I DO see a lot of doggy poop that you are attempting to fire against the wall in hopes that some of it sticks. Doesn't it embarrass you to have to stoop to this sort of nonsense?
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termina
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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Hi, Islamis_Allah_Tashit!
I see in a Arab/English translator site that the verb "is pursued" in these verses aslo mean "is reached".
Which's the correct meaning? |
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Islamis_Allah_Tashit
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 4384
Location: A Holiday Inn bathroom
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| termina wrote: |
Hi, Islamis_Allah_Tashit!
I see in a Arab/English translator site that the verb "is pursued" in these verses aslo mean "is reached".
Which's the correct meaning? |
Let's put them both in the sentence and find out.
YUSUFALI: But any that gains a hearing by stealth, is pursued by a flaming fire, bright (to see).
YUSUFALI: But any that gains a hearing by stealth, is reached by a flaming fire, bright (to see).
I don't see much difference. One says the flame pursues, the other says the flame reaches it's target. How does one reach it's target? By pursuing the target. Reach, however, is a little bit awkward sounding. It's not incorrect, just awkward, whereas pursue flows well with the rest of the sentence. Think about it this way. If I stole something, would we say that I am pursued by the police or I am reached by the police? Reached is an awkward way to put it. But again, I don't think it's an important difference either way anyway.
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termina
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hello, Islamis_Allah_Tashit!
I put this arabic verb for 'being pursued' from the Quran in the online dictionary and
it displays this: http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2MM.asp?Lang=E-A&sub=%CA%F3%CA%F3%C8%F8%F3%DA%F3
I've made a mistakein my last post! This verb in these verses cannot be translated as 'being reached', rather as 'being followed', 'being tracked', ect...
=> Therefore, this verb ONLY means 'being pursued' (or something like that)!  |
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Islamis_Allah_Tashit
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 4384
Location: A Holiday Inn bathroom
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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cool beans.
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termina
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Some Muslims told me that:
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| the existence of the Jinns and the fact that meteors may sometimes drive them away are metaphysical, so nobody can check if it's true or false. So, there isn't any error here! |
=> OK! So, I can claim that I've an INVISIBLE elephant as a friend. 
Meteors, according to Islam (Quran and Sunnah), don't only drive Jinns away, but pursue them.
A comet may leave some dust. This dust scatters in space, and a part of it may come near the Earth. Therefore, due to the Gravity of our planet, it falls down and burns. This is a meteor.
Thus, meteors 'pursue' nothing but the Gravity of the Earth.
=> Therefore, claiming that meteors pursue invisible beings is totally false according to modern astronomy. |
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Islamis_Allah_Tashit
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 4384
Location: A Holiday Inn bathroom
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| termina wrote: |
Some Muslims told me that:
| Quote: |
| the existence of the Jinns and the fact that meteors may sometimes drive them away are metaphysical, so nobody can check if it's true or false. So, there isn't any error here! |
=> OK! So, I can claim that I've an INVISIBLE elephant as a friend.
Meteors, according to Islam (Quran and Sunnah), don't only drive Jinns away, but pursue them.
A comet may leave some dust. This dust scatters in space, and a part of it may come near the Earth. Therefore, due to the Gravity of our planet, it falls down and burns. This is a meteor.
Thus, meteors 'pursue' nothing but the Gravity of the Earth.
=> Therefore, claiming that meteors pursue invisible beings is totally false according to modern astronomy. |
Precisely. Muslims try this little trick of putting a hocus pocus focus on the jinn making them the main subject of focus, when the REAL problem is the Quran misunderstanding the true nature of meteors, meteorites.... It's a little game they play, and many of them even know they are playing it and I have no idea why they don't see that the only brunt of this little joke is they themselves. They claim that since the jinn are metaphysical, then we should all forget about the clear error of saying that shooting stars chase anything. The jinn really have little to do with the problem. The problem is actually the 7th century point of view that these shooting stars that merely looked like they were flying across the sky when they were actually falling, chase ANYTHING, as clearly they don't. Whoops. So let them mention the jinn all they want. It's a well known diversion for a clear instance of the author of the Quran clearly displaying a 7th century understanding of meteors. And to make matters worse, it wasn't just a 7th century understanding of shooting stars (meteors), It was a VERY COMMON understanding of shooting stars in that day. And to make matters worse, if i were a really good guesser, then if someone wanted to really test me, they could truly ask me about something that I could not possibly know. And in the case of any ancient scripture, a good test is the cosmos, as things can be so unreachable and end up being so counter intuitive, that one couldn't even guess the right answer, let alone know it. And when we test the Quran this way, it fails miserably in every category that could not be guessed by mere common sense anyway. Nobody would have guessed the true nature of meteors back then, and guess what, neither did the Qurscam. It got the grade of a 7th century man. 7th Grade ((chuckle chuckle)) except for it's more like 4th Grade (sorry in advance for insulting any 4th graders)
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Farid
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 193
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: |
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Salam,
Termina, you are assuming the Quran is talking about meteors and not shooting stars.
You then say the meteors do not follow a being that we can not see.
Do you see the comedy in this?
secondly, What makes you think it is talking about the meteorites and not shooting stars?
It seemed as though islamis_thashit was in favor of shootings stars until you talked about meteorites.
And lastly, does the Quran say the bright flame follows the jinn all the way till it gets him?
If not, then it can be meant to only drive them away.
Thank you. |
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Islamis_Allah_Tashit
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 4384
Location: A Holiday Inn bathroom
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Farid wrote: |
Salam,
Termina, you are assuming the Quran is talking about meteors and not shooting stars. |
Both are the same thing. Shooting stars is an errant name from old because they used to think that these were either stars or pieces of stars, neither of which is true.
| Farid wrote: |
You then say the meteors do not follow a being that we can not see. |
I didn't see where she said that. In fact, she said this "Thus, meteors 'pursue' nothing but the Gravity of the Earth."
| Farid wrote: |
Do you see the comedy in this? |
Do you mean in your response? If so, then yes.
| Farid wrote: |
secondly, What makes you think it is talking about the meteorites and not shooting stars? |
See above
| Farid wrote: |
It seemed as though islamis_thashit was in favor of shootings stars until you talked about meteorites. |
That's Islamis Allah Tashit (PUBH) which is pronounced "Islam is a lotta sh*t" Anyway, again. See above. You shouldn't have traded science classes for Quran recitations.
| Farid wrote: |
And lastly, does the Quran say the bright flame follows the jinn all the way till it gets him?
If not, then it can be meant to only drive them away.
Thank you. |
Does it matter?? Don't you even understand the error??
Here, maybe this will help. It's Nasa's kiddy question and answer page.
http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question12.html
It's pretty interesting how the weathermen can accurately predict when and where meteor showers will occur. Maybe a jinn whispers in their ear and tells them when the next jinn evesdropping convention will happen.
Thank you.
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Farid
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 193
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Salam,
Islamis_thashit Wrote:
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I didn't see where she said that. In fact, she said this "Thus, meteors 'pursue' nothing but the Gravity of the Earth." |
Farid Wrote:
Implying that it does not pursue a jinn. Which she can not even see. again, do you see the comedy?
Islamis_thasith Wrote:
| Quote: |
Does it matter?? Don't you even understand the error?? |
Farid Wrote:
do you even understand it? What error? All you are telling me is the function of meteors. I do not need a science lesson. Show me where the error is. If there is any?
Thank you |
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Islamis_Allah_Tashit
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 4384
Location: A Holiday Inn bathroom
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Farid wrote: |
Salam,
Islamis_thashit Wrote:
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I didn't see where she said that. In fact, she said this "Thus, meteors 'pursue' nothing but the Gravity of the Earth." |
Farid Wrote:
Implying that it does not pursue a jinn. Which she can not even see. again, do you see the comedy? |
No, because she also implied that they can't pursue ANYTHING. Not visible things and not invisible things. NOTHING. Not the jinn, and not satellites. What is so hard for you to understand?? I certainly see the comedy, but now that this is my second attempt at explaining clear common sense to you, it's not very funny anymore and instead it's becoming alarming and sad. I just can't figure out why Muslims have such a difficult time with reasoning and comprehension. I could bring a 5th grader in here and the 5th grader would interpret her statements correctly because they're easy to figure out. As to why you have such difficulty, it can't be a genetic thing, so it must be an Islamic thing.
| Farid wrote: |
Islamis_thasith Wrote:
| Quote: |
Does it matter?? Don't you even understand the error?? |
Farid Wrote:
do you even understand it? What error? All you are telling me is the function of meteors. I do not need a science lesson. Show me where the error is. If there is any?
Thank you |
Well you do need a science lesson because meteors don't have any specific function. It merely happens to be what happens when a comet orbiting the sun leaves a trail of dust and debris and the earth bumps into it. Didn't you read that article?? Termina showed you the error. Meteors do not pursue anything but the gravity of the earth. That's EXACTLY what she said. Let me be more explicit. They do not pursue invisible things, they do not pursue visible things. They pursue NOTHING but the gravity of the earth. What does that mean? I'll be even more explicit. It means that they get sucked in by the earth's gravity and fall to the earth. Even though, to the naked eye, it "appears" as though they are flying across the sky, they are not. That is a perceptual illusion. They are falling towards the earth due to gravity. If I drop a brick out of a window and it begins to fall, should we say it's pursuing something or is it merely falling??? Get it? Get it? I can't believe you need such an comprehensive, explicit explanation. And you have the nerve to laugh when the joke is clearly on you?? Wow. Amazing. I'm beginning to suspect that you are not capable of having a rational conversation. I'm not saying you don't want to, I just think your development hasn't extended that far yet.
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