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Qulmos
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
Posts: 131
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 Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: Forgiving Christianity? |
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One thing on my mind...
Anyone think it's time to stop bashing Christianity? Especially to make other modes of thought (*cough*ISLAM*cough*) look better?
That seems to be what the mainstream Left does these days. I mean, just look at one of the latest Law & Order episodes, "Angelgrove"; read between the lines of it, and you'll see a subtle subtext there: "Islam okay, Christianity bad."
I have a friend who's a Catholic (and believe me, he is NOT one of those stereotypical Bible-thumping types by any stretch of the imagination), and I ran the following statement by him...
| Quote: |
| "If Christianity itself sinned by giving us things such as the Inquisition, then it redeemed itself by giving us things such as the Renaissance and the Enlightenment." |
...and he was absolutely impressed by it. What do others here think of that?
_________________
"The Koran! well, come put me to the test--
Lovely old book in hideous error drest--
Believe me, I can quote the Koran too,
The unbeliever knows his Koran best."
-Omar Khayyam |
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Lyzandra Daria
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 919
Location: Safe and sound
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: Forgiving Christianity? |
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| Qulmos wrote: |
One thing on my mind...
Anyone think it's time to stop bashing Christianity? Especially to make other modes of thought (*cough*ISLAM*cough*) look better?
That seems to be what the mainstream Left does these days. I mean, just look at one of the latest Law & Order episodes, "Angelgrove"; read between the lines of it, and you'll see a subtle subtext there: "Islam okay, Christianity bad."
I have a friend who's a Catholic (and believe me, he is NOT one of those stereotypical Bible-thumping types by any stretch of the imagination), and I ran the following statement by him...
| Quote: |
| "If Christianity itself sinned by giving us things such as the Inquisition, then it redeemed itself by giving us things such as the Renaissance and the Enlightenment." |
...and he was absolutely impressed by it. What do others here think of that? |
>>>
One can't state that christianity 'gave' us the renaissance or enlightenment. (enlightenment...what a joke). Just as one cannot state that christianity gave us Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni (1475–1564), Filippo Brunelleschi (1337–1446) or Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina (1526-1594).
Although a point could be made for the church i.e., christianity being a major sponsor of the arts for it's (christianity's) own benefit, glorification and gratification.
IMO, The church i.e., catholicism can NEVER redeem itself for the centuries of harm and murders committed in it's quest for supremacy. NEVER. The catholic church continues to this day to 'absolve' itself of complicity in the sex abuse scandles in America. I can only guess at the horrors committed by 'good and gentle priests' against children in so called 'catholic' countries.
IMO, the church (catholic) will never cease in it's quest for complete supremacy, no matter what. This is a matter of self preservation. Like any organism, it wants it's own 'kind' to be 'fruitful' and denegrates (even castigates and labels as sinners) those who practice any kind of birth control (even if the mother's life and health is in danger).
I spit  (figuratively and emphatically) on the catholic church and it's pope. IMO, this cult (catholicism) offers nothing in return for their false promises of redemtion, resurrection, and 'heavenly' abode but they will gladly take your money. IMO, any consolation or solice one gains from this horrid cult is transient and meaningless.
>>>
_________________
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
Lyzandra |
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Qulmos
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
Posts: 131
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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If it's the Church's own shortcomings which I dislike and criticize, then it's also the selective indignation of outside observers which I also find to be disgusting, with how they'll bash Christianity to no end but stay awfully quiet with Islam.
_________________
"The Koran! well, come put me to the test--
Lovely old book in hideous error drest--
Believe me, I can quote the Koran too,
The unbeliever knows his Koran best."
-Omar Khayyam |
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Lyzandra Daria
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 919
Location: Safe and sound
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Qulmos wrote: |
| If it's the Church's own shortcomings which I dislike and criticize, then it's also the selective indignation of outside observers which I also find to be disgusting, with how they'll bash Christianity to no end but stay awfully quiet with Islam. |
>>>
We don't know each other well. I'm not a prolific poster on this site. I saw your post about giving catholics a break and felt compelled to warn you against being deluded further.
You probably aren't aware that, whenever possible, I have denegrated all religions of the Abrahamic tradition, including islam.
However, in my experience (on FFI), the islamo-facists are given the most lee-way. I'm pretty much an equal opportunity offender. I am equally offended by judaism, christianity and islam (in all their myriad of denominations).
The god of Abraham is an evil, vindictive, masochistic, jealous, petty, unjust, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, genocidal, megalomaniacle, sado-masochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Humans who believe in this three-part sky-god deserve what they get.
_________________
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
Lyzandra |
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Richard_The _Lionheart
Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Posts: 6166
Location: England
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: Forgiving Christianity? |
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| Qulmos wrote: |
| Anyone think it's time to stop bashing Christianity? |
From the British perspective I agree.
Christianity in the UK poses no threat and despite no separation of Church & State here, it has virtually no political power.
Islam on the other hand has numerous lobby and pressure groups trying to push an Islamic agenda and plenty of gutless vote grabbing politicians are happy to suck up to them.
Enough is enough. 
_________________
What the world needs is not dogma but an attitude of scientific inquiry combined with a belief that the torture of millions is not desirable, whether inflicted by Stalin or by a Deity imagined in the likeness of the believer. - Bertrand Russell. |
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Intelligent lad
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 1157
Location: God's own country,BHARAT(The Saffron Empire)
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Forgiving Christianity? |
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| Richard_The _Lionheart wrote: |
| Qulmos wrote: |
| Anyone think it's time to stop bashing Christianity? |
From the British perspective I agree.
Christianity in the UK poses no threat and despite no separation of Church & State here, it has virtually no political power.
Islam on the other hand has numerous lobby and pressure groups trying to push an Islamic agenda and plenty of gutless vote grabbing politicians are happy to suck up to them.
Enough is enough. |
I agree  .Its time to leave christianity alone.  (especially in europe).We must consentrate on Islam  . After Islam is dead we may revive our hostilities 
_________________
ISLAM IS THE CANCER,FFI IS THE ANSWER... |
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Oliver128
Joined: 01 Nov 2007
Posts: 281
Location: GOD's COUNTRY
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:29 pm Post subject: No ... No ... No ... Keep it up will you |
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Please keep up the lambasting and persecution - it's what keeps the 'church' strong and alive.
"Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing."
Of course, I can't say that I 'enjoy' the first part = still I'm expecting the second part to have some effect.
_________________
Mohammad lied and people are still dying ...
1Co 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable,
always abounding in the work of the Lord,
knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain. |
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Siwel of Kingdom
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Forgiving Christianity? |
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| Lyzandra Daria wrote: |
| Qulmos wrote: |
One thing on my mind...
Anyone think it's time to stop bashing Christianity? Especially to make other modes of thought (*cough*ISLAM*cough*) look better?
That seems to be what the mainstream Left does these days. I mean, just look at one of the latest Law & Order episodes, "Angelgrove"; read between the lines of it, and you'll see a subtle subtext there: "Islam okay, Christianity bad."
I have a friend who's a Catholic (and believe me, he is NOT one of those stereotypical Bible-thumping types by any stretch of the imagination), and I ran the following statement by him...
| Quote: |
| "If Christianity itself sinned by giving us things such as the Inquisition, then it redeemed itself by giving us things such as the Renaissance and the Enlightenment." |
...and he was absolutely impressed by it. What do others here think of that? |
>>>
One can't state that christianity 'gave' us the renaissance or enlightenment. (enlightenment...what a joke). Just as one cannot state that christianity gave us Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni (1475–1564), Filippo Brunelleschi (1337–1446) or Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina (1526-1594).
Although a point could be made for the church i.e., christianity being a major sponsor of the arts for it's (christianity's) own benefit, glorification and gratification.
IMO, The church i.e., catholicism can NEVER redeem itself for the centuries of harm and murders committed in it's quest for supremacy. NEVER. The catholic church continues to this day to 'absolve' itself of complicity in the sex abuse scandles in America. I can only guess at the horrors committed by 'good and gentle priests' against children in so called 'catholic' countries.
IMO, the church (catholic) will never cease in it's quest for complete supremacy, no matter what. This is a matter of self preservation. Like any organism, it wants it's own 'kind' to be 'fruitful' and denegrates (even castigates and labels as sinners) those who practice any kind of birth control (even if the mother's life and health is in danger).
I spit (figuratively and emphatically) on the catholic church and it's pope. IMO, this cult (catholicism) offers nothing in return for their false promises of redemtion, resurrection, and 'heavenly' abode but they will gladly take your money. IMO, any consolation or solice one gains from this horrid cult is transient and meaningless.
>>> |
I do disagree with much of Catholicism which denies the Bible but do not forget the harms that Atheistic and Evolutionistic thinking has caused *cough* Hitler *cough* Stalin...
So perhaps you could drop this subject as all men do evil things the organization of the church itself can of course be evil, religion can be evil. Just as I can have a kind heart and be a kind man but rule an unkind and brutal country, just because my people are evil would you think I am? |
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Lyzandra Daria
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 919
Location: Safe and sound
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: Forgiving Christianity? |
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I do disagree with much of Catholicism which denies the Bible but do not forget the harms that Atheistic and Evolutionistic thinking has caused *cough* Hitler *cough* Stalin...
So perhaps you could drop this subject as all men do evil things the organization of the church itself can of course be evil, religion can be evil. Just as I can have a kind heart and be a kind man but rule an unkind and brutal country, just because my people are evil would you think I am?[/quote]
>>>
Response without merit: Neither Hitler or Stalin were atheists. Hitler was raised catholic, as much of the germanic people were converted after the visigothic people populated the region. Stalin, similarly was raised in the 'orthodox' church.
Response without merit: I hardly believe one can put atheist and evolutionist in the same sentence inferring harm. (burp/belch)
Agreed...men do evil things and none so evil as those committed in the name of religion. So...whenever someone crops up and wants to give catholics a 'pass' on their past bad behavior, I remind them that catholicism is evil to its core, always has been, always will be.
Like you (maybe) are 'good' so there are some who are catholic who are 'good' in their own minds. That doesn't mean the catholic church would agree.
After all, the catholic church (much like islam) preys on humans. They not only need your money to support their lavish lifestyle (which 'Jesus' would have IMO abhored) they need people to believe they live in sin and can't gain 'salvation' without the rituals and intercession of the church (i.e., some of those same priest pedophiles).
My advice...never forget or forgive. Remain diligent against these heresies and cults.
>>>
_________________
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
Lyzandra |
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mrcommonsensenow
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 1711
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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I’m an agnostic heathen destined to burn in hell for eternity so my forgiveness is irrelevant to the morally righteous Christians / Muslims. 
It’s Christians and Muslims that need to forgive others who don’t share their beliefs. Maybe then, humanity will no longer have to endure their ludicrous disagreements, which have resulted in over a thousand years of war, intolerance, oppression and other violations of human dignity. 
_________________
It is not logical to believe that the same God who has allegedly endowed us with sense, reasons, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. |
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Lyzandra Daria
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 919
Location: Safe and sound
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| mrcommonsensenow wrote: |
I’m an agnostic heathen destined to burn in hell for eternity so my forgiveness is irrelevant to the morally righteous Christians / Muslims.
It’s Christians and Muslims that need to forgive others who don’t share their beliefs. Maybe then, humanity will no longer have to endure their ludicrous disagreements, which have resulted in over a thousand years of war, intolerance, oppression and other violations of human dignity. |
>>>
I agree (partially) with you Mr.CSN. However, I don't feel I need forgiveness. I don't sin.
Sin, especially original sin, is a con to keep gullible people coming back to their church and handing over their money to be pacified by the same priest who is fondling the alterboy.
Question: How can any rational human being believe that the sacrements delivered by a pedophile priest are sacred? Does the priest absolve himself before offering the sacraments?
God should (if he/she/it existed) strike these pedophilic priests down for defaming his/her/its holy sacrements. But ths doesn't happen. Therefore, the sacraments aren't 'holy' and god doesn't exist.
If this is a question about the 'lesser of two evils'...sure, go for catholicism. At least the case can be made that catholicism hasn't massacures thousands LATELY.
That said...caution must be maintained. Technically, any christian (baptised) can be considered apostate from the 'one true religion of god', i.e., catholicism.
See this http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19692094/
Pope: Other denominations not true churches
Benedict issues statement asserting that Jesus established ‘only one church’
This is from July, 2007!
Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.
Benedict approved a document from his old offices at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that restates church teaching on relations with other Christians. It was the second time in a week the pope has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 meetings that modernized the church.
On Saturday, Benedict revisited another key aspect of Vatican II by reviving the old Latin Mass. Traditional Catholics cheered the move, but more liberal ones called it a step back from Vatican II.
There was no indication about why the pope felt it necessary to release the document, particularly since his 2000 document summed up the same principles. Some analysts suggested it could be a question of internal church politics, or that it could simply be an indication of Benedict using his office as pope to again stress key doctrinal issues from his time at the congregation.
Father Augustine Di Noia, undersecretary for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, said the document did not alter the commitment for ecumenical dialogue, but aimed to assert Catholic identity in those talks.
“The Church is not backtracking on ecumenical commitment,” Di Noia told Vatican radio.
“But, as you know, it is fundamental to any kind of dialogue that the participants are clear about their own identity. That is, dialogue cannot be an occasion to accommodate or soften what you actually understand yourself to be.”
Give catholicism a break if you want to...and at your own peril. Just as I don't give islam a break for all their whining about being the 'religion of peace', I won't cut catholics any slack.
And, before anybody gets on my case for not denegrating the other trinitarian religions (christians)...they haven't used their religion to torture and murder hundreds of thousands of people inorder to maintain their 'supremacy'. The other christian religions don't deny scientific fact and excommunicate their members for disagreeing with the religious heirarchy (unless I've missed a 'Pelagius', 'Celestius', or 'Capernicus'.
re: my question about pedophile priests and the sacraments...
Donatists' argued that a morally unworthy clergyman could not perform valid ecclessial actions. They (Donatists) were considered heritics by the Roman Catholic Church. (surprise!)
>>>
_________________
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
Lyzandra |
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mrcommonsensenow
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 1711
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| Lyzandra Daria wrote: |
| mrcommonsensenow wrote: |
I’m an agnostic heathen destined to burn in hell for eternity so my forgiveness is irrelevant to the morally righteous Christians / Muslims.
It’s Christians and Muslims that need to forgive others who don’t share their beliefs. Maybe then, humanity will no longer have to endure their ludicrous disagreements, which have resulted in over a thousand years of war, intolerance, oppression and other violations of human dignity. |
>>>
I agree (partially) with you Mr.CSN. However, I don't feel I need forgiveness. I don't sin.
I did not say we needed their forgiveness. 
It is them that have the "need". 
Give catholicism a break if you want to...and at your own peril. Just as I don't give islam a break for all their whining about being the 'religion of peace'.
>>> |
Agree 100%
Last time I checked, Catholics and Christians still read the same bible today as the one used for over a thousand years to justify everything from war and murder to slavery and the subjugation of women. If fact, many sects still believe in many if not ALL of these concepts. Why shouldn’t they? After all, it's in their "holly book".
_________________
It is not logical to believe that the same God who has allegedly endowed us with sense, reasons, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. |
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Lyzandra Daria
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 919
Location: Safe and sound
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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Seldom more publicly mentioned, is that over the last two centuries and more, various Jesuits and Popes have labeled the Declaration of Independence as "wickedness", and that Popular Government, provided by the U.S. Constitution with its Bill of Rights is a "satanic instrument".
_________________
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
Lyzandra |
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PeaceOnEarth
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 1564
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:28 am Post subject: |
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If I murder somebody and then go around feeding the oppressed and hungry for the next 3 years, does that mean I am all good?
Should I be considered safe?
Should I be let go without punishment for what I have done?
What would you do if I am not a person but an organization following a corpus of thought?
What if I were Nazis who, for the sake of argument, won WWII and then did good and peaceful deeds for the next ten years. Their war crimes should be forgiven? Would you feel safe with Nazi ideals?
Sure work hard against Cancer(Islam). That does not mean you slack off and do not take care of yourself against heart disease (Christianity).
Probably the best way for Europe to stop spread of the deadly virus called Islam is to ban (organized) conversions. But their Christian heritage would not let them do this - they want to do the same thing to Middle East if possible - convert them.
_________________
"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract." - Oliver Wendell Holmes |
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Rat_bytes
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 539
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: |
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Christianity is culpable in the spread of Islam because the concessions that are made for Christians must also be made for Muslims. If it weren't for mainstream Christianity, the concept of believing something without proof would be an unacceptable idea, and Islam would be a lot easier to attack. All religions are bad because they all demand the same intellectual laziness to accept the original premise that there's a big magical personality watching over you who judges you constantly.
_________________
The world holds two classes of men - intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence. - Abu’l‐Ala al Ma’arri |
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