Did Jesus Claim He Was The Son Of God ?

[rocketman]

Fathom
I never thought I would be saying this, but thanks' Fathom. I do not agree with your assessment that Jesus the man and Christ the Spirit are to be separated, but I thank for your insight. I think sometimes, even when you are not provoked, you have a tendency to talk down to your audience. When you give your opinion as your opinion, and that without condescension ,you will at least have an audience that will not return such in like manner.

Again I do appreciate you insight, but I truly do not believe the man Jesus is to be distinct from His own Spririt. You do have and interesting way at looking at Christ, but just as we are,in our own earth suit, part and parcel with our soul and spirit, so it is that Christ was part and parcel with his earth suit. As He has now, just as we who believe will have when we leave this earth, and that being a heavenly body without spot of blemish. As Jesus Himself said we will be like angels. God is One and when all is accomplished the Son Himself will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.

There are many things that we can and are being discussed. In the future I will try not to be snide and sarcastic, if you in turn will try not to teach, but only submit. We more than likely will not agree on much, but it may lead to a more Christ like discussion.

As you know Fathom, whether now or down the road, I will do my best to challenge what I see, "as some of your wacky ideas". So this should be interesting. You move from point quite a bit, and I have to learn to not take the rabbits foot and run down the trail, but to stay focused and deal with one item at a time.

I will join the conversation again, but right now it time for some shut eye. PS. No more about scholarship
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If ever there was a time to use the brain we were born with it is now.

[Fathom]

[rocketman]

Fathom addresses rocketman:

[rocketman]

Fathom and to all this is an edit of the above post to Fathom. I was in a hurry and was needed to help my family prepare for Easter. I have put the missing words and any corrections in Blue. I have also left out Fathoms part for brevity. Thanks

Fathom the corrections are mainly for you, before you post your retort.

This is true, but Jesus was always the Christ from the moment of His being conceived by the same Holy Spirit. Therefore just as we have our own body, soul, and spirit, so did Jesus, But He was unique.

Actually Jesus was not baptized with the Holy Spirit when He was baptized by John the Baptist. (The Holy Spirit came upon Him, because He was in submission to His Father) If you would turn to Luke 1:11 it states "for today in the city of David there has been born for you a "Savior, who is Christ the Lord." Previously in Luke 1:35, "And the angel answered and said to her "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God.


(Since not deeded) after Jesus died and was raised again we find Him commissioning His disciples also known as apostles to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit". As you can see ,Jesus, before He has even taken His first breath as a new born baby was proclaimed to be the Son of God, and the Christ, and the Savior for all people.

I know from past postings that you only believe Jesus words, but unless you believe the Qur'an ,Jesus was a baby and could not talk to claim this for Himself. There are many in the scriptures that the Holy Spirit comes upon, but they are not all Christs. The Holy Spirit revealed to Simeon that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. His response after seeing and holding the baby Jesus was "Now Lord, Thou dost let Thy bond servant depart in peace, according to Thy word.

As you know Fathom Christians believe in the whole teaching of the word, and it is plain from these scriptures that The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit are the one God. Jesus states this clearly in the above verse Matt. 28:19. I believe the Holy Spirit coming upon Jesus at His baptism was to empower Him to do His work here on earth and was the beginning of His earthly ministry. ( although Jesus was God He left His powers with the Father,) God's saying , "that this is my Son in Whom I am well pleased", I believe was a compilation of Jesus life to that point; that of being an obedient Son, etc.

Additionally when Jesus was only twelve years old He refers to God as His own Father. I will not take time to list all those in both old and new testaments have had the Holy Spirit come upon them, for you are as familiar with these as I, but just to say they weren't all Christ because of the infilling.


Yes I do believe that Jesus was as human as you and I. As I stated previously this was His coming out party so to speak. As I have referenced above, but only in part so as not to make this post longer than need be, Jesus was Christ even before taking His first breath. It is impossible to separate Jesus the man from Jesus the Lord.


Your first sentence above is accurate enough. But look at what Jesus says to John the Baptist in referring to His baptism, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness."

What does Jesus mean by this statement? That although it wasn't necessary let it be done. Why? You only have to read what the Baptist says to Jesus just prior, "I have need to be baptized by you, and do You come to me?"

What is baptism for? I am glad you asked? It is (a symbol for the)for the cleansing of sin, a (public )sign of repentance, but Jesus Himself was sinless, and had no need to repent . Why then was He baptized? What does He say? "To fulfill all righteousness for it is fitting. He didn't hold himself above anyone, although He was above everyone.

This is another reason His Father speaks to Him, and everyone else around Him hears "This is my Son in Whom I am well pleased". As you know Fathom, the bible states the Jesus left all His Godly attributes in heaven, and was totally dependent on the Father, just as we are.

He was our example and lived His life in such a way that although, 'being God, He did not regard equality with God as a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant , and being made in the likeness of,men, and being found in appearance as a man , He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. " Phil. 2:7-8

This is why, although being God in the flesh , Jesus submitted, as our example, and as we must, for the filling of the Holy Spirit, and this in order to do His will. Although as a Christian I believe I am sealed with the Holy Spirit , I too realize that I need to submit myself on a daily basis even though the Holy Spirit dwells within me.

This is so true, and I thank my God for my adoption into His family. To be adopted into a family means that at one time we were not of that family. We have a son, but decide to adopt, that adopted son is no less now part of the family, but he will always have been adopted. Jesus the Christ was not adopted but was with the Father from the beginning, the One and Only Begotten Son of God; who was incredibly gracious to us in while we were yet sinners died for us, that we could be saved. Saved and adopted and now co-heirs with Jesus. This however can not make us Christ Jesus, but only his brethren.

Agreed until right to the last five words. Although we become as sons and daughter we will always be his creation, and therefore not equal. I think Lucifer felt this way too. Lets not let this happen to us.


I will have to disagree with much of this above paragraph. When one is baptized they are placed into or sprinkled with water. This is an act of obedience , and is to signify the death to self, and our old ways, and to proclaim publicly our faith, and newness of life in Christ. We at this time are no more spiritually perfect than we were before baptism. (Accept where before we were dead now we are alive) We are but babes in Christ and know little of Him, just as a new born babe knows nothing about his parents; except that something is indeed different. Our spirituality is not the same as the cleansing of our soul . Before we believed in Christ our spirit was considered dead unto Him. It is here I must (state) that being born again and being baptized have noting to do with each other.

One, accepting Jesus as savior is the believing part, and being baptized into Him is the obedient part. You can have one without the other. But I would recommend (not) doing the first without following up with the second. Again, as I have said before Jesus was perfect, for He was God incarnate, and did not need to be baptized. Our obedience to be baptized show our love and commitment publicly to Christ , but we will could never be as perfect as the one who created us. (even though He calls us to be, it is He who perfects us) Are we called to be perfect? Yes, in fact we are called to be like Christ. It is indeed up to us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

The clay can not say to the potter, "Why did you make me this way". I am not God, but I believe I am one of His "bestests" creations. He has called me to be perfect and to be Holy, but never as He said, "be my equal" Again I believe Lucifer thinking was along the same lines. So again I say, let us not travel the same path.

This has been covered thoroughly, and has been thoroughly debunked. Of course this is (my) opinion based and according to the whole of the Bible, by the same authors that recorded Jesus words.


The man who approached Jesus is not calling Him good, he is asking Him what good thing shall he do that he may obtain eternal life?" Read the previous verse. Matt. 19:16 . Jesus answers him by turning the question (upon) Himself, "why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.

It is here that I believe Jesus is claiming to be God by using an indirect approach as He was pron to do(another Jewish idiom such), as when He said to His mother, "what have I to do with you". This saying "there is only One who is good" is as always, making Himself equal to His Father. This may be a stretch, but at least it is a stretch in agreement with the whole of the Blbbe.

This is tuly a gnostic teaching and is very much your right to have it.
As you are well aware the Bible speaks much of this belief.

We as people were made perfect, but with free choice to disobey. Disobedience is sin. It is not our flesh that (that was made) corrupt, (but sin that uses the flesh). ( We in ourselves the flesh without the Spirit can do nothing.(of eternal good)

Here Jesus is referring to the cleaning of a demon possessed man of which the pharisees are accusing Him of casting the demons out by the leader of demons Beezebul. In a nut shell Jesus was telling them you can insult me all you want but if you claim this power of God to be of Satan you will never be forgiven, neither in this age nor of the age to come.

As explained previously God is not thin skinned, nor is any part of the God head, but when one calls something that God does and gives that credit to evil, well you know the result.

Hopefully this has been covered enough and refuted as much. There is no way that Jesus and the Christ are divided in scripture. This line of thought is gnostic and as been accepted by its followers such as Fathom.

When the serpent suggested to Eve. that the tree of knowledge was good to eat, in some respects it probably was, but the outcome was death. I will pass, and you might consider passing too.

Touche !

I hope I have been courteous in my disagreement with your theories, I also hope to persuade in your error that I believe you are continuing to make. Until next time Rocketman.
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This is the only way I new to edit my post so that it would be more understandable. Of course when I arrived back home the edit feature had already expired. I am truly sorry if this is to much to work with. Fathom my attempt at correcting the obvious will always be insufficient ,for there will always be loopholes. Again sorry for the mess. And Happy Easter to you and all.
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If ever there was a time to use the brain we were born with it is now.

[piggy]

[Fathom]

Before I respond, I would like to lay down the groundwork of what is required for evidence to support each of our views. It's perfectly fine to have a point of view, but I think it's only that something known as a "chain of evidence" be used to support that view.

A chain of evidence in this situation will of course be totally textual, since there really isn't anything else to work with. It should also be almost totally restricted to the Holy Bible, and/or restricted to other universally accepted church documents.

Along with the chain of evidence there should be a "cohesive train of thought" which uses the evidence to support our final conclusions. The cohesive train of thought will demonstrate how we go from Point A to Point B, while using the textual evidence for support. It will explain our views while drawing from the chain of evidence to postulate a conclusion.

Therefore, through the examination of your post, I will demonstrate to you what the problem is with your argument, and also demonstrate to you how I use the chain of evidence in conjunction with a cohesive train of thought.

With that being said, let's take a look at what you said ...

[rocketman]

Fathom

[rocketman]

[landmark]

[Fathom]

[Jacquelina]

To all of you who are arguing over the nature of this maverick rabbi and his life history: it was written several decades AFTER Jesus was alive! Thus, the authors only dimly remembered Jesus, if at all, from during his lifetime, and more likely heard about Jesus from someone else. Why not try picking on a Messiah who lived a bit closer to home and within living memory?

(Menachem Schneerson, as shown by http://mentalblog.com)

Oh? Not comfortable with that? How about this one instead?

(yup, you know who! Kudos to Wikipedia and the NY World-Telegram for this.)
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Look ahead, but think of what you left behind. ("Beware of the dark side of the Force.")

[piggy]

[landmark]

[ixolite]

[humandecency]