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Internet Censorship in Islamic countries - for MsWesterner
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Sanitarium



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 6891
Location: where my time is better spent.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:06 am    Post subject: Internet Censorship in Islamic countries - for MsWesterner Reply with quote

Continued from this thread because was completely off topic.


MsWesterner wrote:
sites are banned because the criticism of islam in them "exposes" what is taught and the inherent behaviours.

No, as I have stated, sites are banned because they are deemed to be incompatible with Islamic beliefs. While true that many anti-Islamic sites are banned, it is not because they "expose Islam" - Muslims have their own texts to do that - they don't need us; these sites are banned because they are "disprespectful" to the 'holy Islam'.

MsWesterner wrote:

when people see such sites, or view certain types of tv programmes, some do think and question.......and in islam the leaders do not want that.

While some sites (like FFI) may make Muslims question Islam, you will find that many sites may just tempt Muslims to do something "unislamic" therefore they are banned also.

What is your source for saying that those in charge of blocking sites do not want people to question? Please elaborate. AFAIK, countries like Saudi Arabia actually INVITE people to nominate sites for blocking themselves - thus the "central authority" for this is not wholly responsible for which sites are and are not blocked. Therefore I do not understand where you are getting your information.

MsWesterner wrote:

The same happens with sites where women see how things are different for western women and it causes them to look at their own lives/restrictions etc.

Please look at what sites are blocked and which are not before replying. I will link to some info. on Saudi Arabia's blocking lower down for you.

MsWesterner wrote:

Insecurity is a good way to describe why leaders make such decisions.

Again, please give your sources for this claim.

MsWesterner wrote:

Yes, they ban other sites too......and for the same reasons in that these muslim leaders dont believe it to be in the interests of their people to be watching them.

Please cite your sources for this claim. Remember, be specific if you wish to convince me and the readers.

MsWesterner wrote:

We've just seen it with you tube and Pakistan too.

No, that site was blocked in protest to certain videos which "blasphemed Muhammad" (as they saw it). This is consistent with my claims for the reason for the blockings. Also note that we do not know what instigated the problem. Did the "guy in charge" find the videos and ban YT for the whole country? Were people complaining? We just don't know, therefore this is not definitive proof of anything.

MsWesterner wrote:

Why the need to discredit me Sani?

Okay here's the big problem! I'm not discrediting you, I'm discrediting your argument!. Ever since I found that some countries were blocking sites, I have been doing some research into this. Your claims are NOT consistent with what I have found.

Here are some screenshots of FFI for you:

Saudi Arabia - 2006:

Full Size

Iran - 2006:

Full Size

Saudi Arabia & Iran - July, 2007:

Full Size

Indonesia - July 2007 (ISP block):

Full Size

Kuwait - July, 2007 (ISP block) :

Full Size


Please be sure to note in the Saudi Arabia, 2006 screenshot, the line: Please, send other sites you feel should be blocked using the following form. This means that sites are blocked most likely by number of complaints or even review by "someone in charge". Also note that since many ISP Bans are in place in many Islamic or Islamic-majority countries then this speaks NOT to "The powers that be" blocking the site, but users complaining to their own ISP that a site "offends Islam" and then being blocked after review.

Now, regarding what sites are blocked? Here is some information on Saudi Arabia:

Documentation of Internet Filtering in Saudi Arabia - Make sure to scroll down and you can peruse the complete list of all tested sites alphabetically!
Internet filtering in Saudi Arabia in 2004


So you see, I am not discrediting YOU, but your argument. Please let me know if you'd like more information.
Thanks

-Sani
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fire-snake



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am in one of those banned country above, I logged several times without proxy it was still accessible (up to now).
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Chewchy



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:35 am    Post subject: Re: Internet Censorship in Islamic countries - for MsWestern Reply with quote

Sanitarium wrote:
Continued from this thread because was completely off topic.


MsWesterner wrote:
sites are banned because the criticism of islam in them "exposes" what is taught and the inherent behaviours.

No, as I have stated, sites are banned because they are deemed to be incompatible with Islamic beliefs. While true that many anti-Islamic sites are banned, it is not because they "expose Islam" - Muslims have their own texts to do that - they don't need us; these sites are banned because they are "disprespectful" to the 'holy Islam'.

MsWesterner wrote:

when people see such sites, or view certain types of tv programmes, some do think and question.......and in islam the leaders do not want that.

While some sites (like FFI) may make Muslims question Islam, you will find that many sites may just tempt Muslims to do something "unislamic" therefore they are banned also.

What is your source for saying that those in charge of blocking sites do not want people to question? Please elaborate. AFAIK, countries like Saudi Arabia actually INVITE people to nominate sites for blocking themselves - thus the "central authority" for this is not wholly responsible for which sites are and are not blocked. Therefore I do not understand where you are getting your information.

MsWesterner wrote:

The same happens with sites where women see how things are different for western women and it causes them to look at their own lives/restrictions etc.

Please look at what sites are blocked and which are not before replying. I will link to some info. on Saudi Arabia's blocking lower down for you.

MsWesterner wrote:

Insecurity is a good way to describe why leaders make such decisions.

Again, please give your sources for this claim.

MsWesterner wrote:

Yes, they ban other sites too......and for the same reasons in that these muslim leaders dont believe it to be in the interests of their people to be watching them.

Please cite your sources for this claim. Remember, be specific if you wish to convince me and the readers.

MsWesterner wrote:

We've just seen it with you tube and Pakistan too.

No, that site was blocked in protest to certain videos which "blasphemed Muhammad" (as they saw it). This is consistent with my claims for the reason for the blockings. Also note that we do not know what instigated the problem. Did the "guy in charge" find the videos and ban YT for the whole country? Were people complaining? We just don't know, therefore this is not definitive proof of anything.

MsWesterner wrote:

Why the need to discredit me Sani?

Okay here's the big problem! I'm not discrediting you, I'm discrediting your argument!. Ever since I found that some countries were blocking sites, I have been doing some research into this. Your claims are NOT consistent with what I have found.

Here are some screenshots of FFI for you:

Saudi Arabia - 2006:

Full Size

Iran - 2006:

Full Size

Saudi Arabia & Iran - July, 2007:

Full Size

Indonesia - July 2007 (ISP block):

Full Size

Kuwait - July, 2007 (ISP block) :

Full Size


Please be sure to note in the Saudi Arabia, 2006 screenshot, the line: Please, send other sites you feel should be blocked using the following form. This means that sites are blocked most likely by number of complaints or even review by "someone in charge". Also note that since many ISP Bans are in place in many Islamic or Islamic-majority countries then this speaks NOT to "The powers that be" blocking the site, but users complaining to their own ISP that a site "offends Islam" and then being blocked after review.

Now, regarding what sites are blocked? Here is some information on Saudi Arabia:

Documentation of Internet Filtering in Saudi Arabia - Make sure to scroll down and you can peruse the complete list of all tested sites alphabetically!
Internet filtering in Saudi Arabia in 2004


So you see, I am not discrediting YOU, but your argument. Please let me know if you'd like more information.
Thanks

-Sani


I certainly wouldn't want to report that the site shouldn't be banned for fear of someone coming to get me in the middle of the night
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Sanitarium



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 6891
Location: where my time is better spent.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fire-snake wrote:
I am in one of those banned country above, I logged several times without proxy it was still accessible (up to now).


fire-snake: Indonesia and Kuwait have some ISP bans in place - this means it is not banned for the whole country, but only for people who use those particular ISP's. This is most likely why you have no trouble to access FFI

@Chewchy: LOL! Too right!
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yeezevee



Joined: 17 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that is good subject to know dear Sanitarium & it doesn't need to be specific to MsWesterner, does it??., every member should know these problems. There are NUMBER OF ISSUES here.. 1). Countries banning websites due to Sexual explicit content 2). Countries banning websites due to Voilent content such as Jihadi beheadings.. 3). Not countries but Governments banning the websites due to the political opposition with-in or from outside of the country. 4). Countires banning the religious discussions/for those who question/propogate other religious views.. Such As Islamic countries.., 5). banning the website because people are criticizing the religions due to their BUILT IN STUPIDITY.. etc..

So, each issue is different and one need to go in detail before these so-called rulers put a ban on the freedom of information that must avialable freely on web

Any way it is a good thread and please continue to educate the reader..

wirh best regards
yeezevee
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Sanitarium



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings yeezevee,

Actually I was addressing a specific claim that MsWesterner was making and then repeated. I chose this title because I made this topic seperate from another thread and I wanted to draw her attention to it. I have already addressed your concerns in my first post here.

Apparently it did not work as she has not yet replied!

Thanks muchly
-Sani
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yeezevee



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Apparently it did not work as she has not yet replied!

Thanks muchly
-Sani

Well.. one need not reply.. people are reading .. I am reading, I am learning ..that is all what is needed.,

yeezevee
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Sanitarium



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks yeezevee I didn't know you had a sense of humour!!


Muslim: The Quran is the truth! Allah is God and Muhammad was his messenger!!

Sceptic: What is your evidence for that?

Muslim: .........



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yeezevee



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Thanks yeezevee I didn't know you had a sense of humour!!
.. Thank you for the compliment , without that I don't think I can live., I would have been dead by now

Quote:
Muslim: The Quran is the truth! Allah is God and Muhammad was his messenger!!

Sceptic: What is your evidence for that?

Muslim: .........
.. Well let me answer as Muslim(just acting)., It is VERY SIMPLE, The evidence is in Q'uran.. Allah said so., “Allah” is the Arabic word for God, You infidels don't read Q'uran carefully , here
Quote:
'And if thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the book from before thee..' (Surah 10, Yunus, verse 94)
if you don't know how to read then Listen to it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpyWS0SqOS4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iy_DYwRDBA

Warning: DECREASE THE SOUND., I don't want you to become DEAF..lol..

yeezevee
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Sanitarium



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay yeezevee, you're just here to derail the thread, so I will wait for MsWesterner to come and rebut my rebuttal.

After that you can take this thread halfway to Calcutta if you like.

Thanks muchly

-Sani
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MsWesterner



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sani.....you can play with words all you wish in an attempt to "score brownie points" and get your pound of flesh.......FFI is banned in some muslim countries and it exposes islam and these countries do not want their people reading it!!! What does this indicate.....that it is insecure, or it wouldnt ban these things!!!

and before I post the following....I have asked you politely to cease this personal nonsense, and note that you want me banned!!! (and so you continue with it and dont seem willing to give it up........why be so vitriolic?)

Muslim governments/leaders do block sites because of insecurity......they know that people viewing human rights and freedoms will create unrest!!! So why do you have such a problem with my saying this?

please note the word "repression" in the title plus the "human rights" in the text.

Friday, May 18, 2007

Internet Increasingly Censored
The first comprehensive global survey of Internet filtering shows that online repression is on the rise worldwide.

By Clark Boyd

Access denied: The OpenNet Initiative (ONI) report singled out China as one of the biggest blockers of online content. According to ONI, China blocks a wide range of political, cultural, religious, and human-rights websites.
Credit: Open Net Initiative
A report released today by the OpenNet Initiative (ONI) concludes that the scale, the scope, and the sophistication of state-based Internet filtering have all increased dramatically in recent years. The survey highlights the tools and techniques used by countries to keep their citizens from viewing certain kinds of online material.

ONI is a collaboration among four leading universities: Cambridge, Oxford, Harvard, and Toronto. The group's testing was carried out during 2006 and early 2007. ONI used a combination of tools that can remotely test filtering conditions within given countries. The group also relied heavily on local researchers who evaluated Internet conditions from inside certain countries. Some countries, such as Cuba and North Korea, were deemed too dangerous for either remote or in-country testing. But of the 41 different countries tested by ONI, 25 were found to block or filter online content.

"Over the course of five years, we've gone from just a few places doing state-based technical filtering, like China, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, to more than two dozen," says John Palfrey, executive director of the Berkman Center for Internet and Society at Harvard Law School. "As Internet censorship and surveillance grow, there's reason to worry about the implications of these trends for human rights, political activism, and economic development around the world."

But it's not just the sheer number of countries doing content filtering that has grown; it's also the breadth and depth of material being blocked.

The report discusses three primary rationales that nations have for blocking Internet content. The first is political, which leads to, for example, the blocking of opposition-group websites. The second rationale is social: some countries block pornography and sites dealing with gambling or sexuality issues. The third rationale is national security, which can lead some nations to block online material produced by, for example, extremist groups.

According to the report, China, Iran, and Saudi Arabia remain the top blockers. Each nation filters not just pornography, but also a wide range of political, human-rights, religious, and cultural sites deemed subversive by those countries' governments.
Other countries are more selective in what they let citizens see or not see. Syria and Tunisia, for example, filter a great deal of political content, while Burma and Pakistan target websites that pertain to national-security issues.

One interesting case is that of heavily wired South Korea, where ONI found Internet filtering limited to one topic: North Korea. "The South Koreans block several North Korean websites," says Nart Villeneuve, director of technical research at the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto. "They even tamper with the system so that when you try to access one of those North Korean sites, the URL resolves to a South Korean police page telling you, 'What you're trying to access is illegal, and we know your IP [Internet protocol] address.'" (An IP address could be used to locate the computer where the search is conducted, with the ultimate goal of identifying the individual involved.)



I note that yeezevee tried to explain it to you also......but that didnt suffice for you.

of course sites that are banned are incompatible with islamic beliefs because, as I said, many do expose "what is taught and the behaviours" as much of FFI does.

How many times must I ask that you cease this continuing personal discreditation......I see many many people on this forum whom write all sorts of things, yet dont see you "waiting to jump on them" or hoping to catch them out.
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yeezevee



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ooops.. something is cooking here again., I hope the food smells better than the previous dish., ..da..da...da.
Quote:
Sani: Okay yeezevee, you're just here to derail the thread, so I will wait for MsWesterner to come and rebut my rebuttal.

After that you can take this thread halfway to Calcutta if you like.

Thanks muchly

-Sani
Noooo, dear Sanitarium, I don't want derail the thread., this thread is quite important to discuss., So the question I have to you both is ..let me copy that I wrote
Quote:


1). Countries banning websites due to Sexual explicit content

2). Countries banning websites due to Voilent content such as Jihadi beheadings..

3). Not countries but Governments banning the websites due to the political opposition with-in or from outside of the country.

4). Countires banning the religious discussions/for those who question/propogate other religious views.. Such As Islamic countries..,

5). banning the website because people are criticizing the religions due to their BUILT IN STUPIDITY.
Let us add 6th one here

6). West or Muslims Countries BANING the websites of preaching Islam from REAL MUSLIM Imams.. So it seems , some of the western governament are proposing to ban the websites of Al Qaeda or Hizb ut Tahir

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G32QJEFPT18

question is, is it a good idea to ban the websites?? and out of those Six Points(and may be more) which of them do you guys prefer to be banned by the Governments of different countries..

Please don't take things personally.. There is no winner and no looser in these discussions..

with best wishes to you both
yeezevee


Last edited by yeezevee on Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sally



Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 438

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
and out of those Six Points(and may be more) which of them do you guys prefer to be banned by the Governments of different countries..


Hello yeezevee,

This is a very good question. I'm surprised it hasn't been addressed before on a site that is banned in some countries, (or maybe it has, I haven't been here that long).

First instincts would be that nothing should be banned on the Internet, it should be up to parents to regulate their childrens' access, and workplaces to regulate their employees during work hours. However, its not that simple is it? We don't want child pornography or terrorist recruitment freely distributed in any medium - Internet included.

So I think my answer is that governments should not ban any site per se, but should set laws that criminalise the distribution and possession of materials which incite terrorism, and some types of pornography, by whatever medium. That is a better idea than banning any Internet site.
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yeezevee



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sally: Hello yeezevee,

This is a very good question. I'm surprised it hasn't been addressed before on a site that is banned in some countries, (or maybe it has, I haven't been here that long).
good to hear from you dear Sally, Well FFI does have couple of threads some where in the bottom of some folder dealing with that subject., In fact this freedom of expression is such an important basic parameter for human development, it involves not only jusy websites but Web blogs, news papers, TV, Moveis, Music and arts.. The problem is, it is double edged sword.. so the discussions must continue what to be banned and what not be & where and when?? on that note news says
http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=38600
Quote:
The German minister refuses to condemn cartoons’ publication

DUBAI: German Interior Minister has refused to denounce the carrying of sacrilegious cartoons by some European papers.

According to Arab TV the German minister, in a talk with a German magazine termed banning of publication of the blasphemous cartoons as against the freedom of press.

“Those newspapers which decided not to publish the cartoons should reconsider their decision,” he said. He said the papers cannot be prevented from publishing any kind of material because the same would be against the freedom of media.


with best regards
yeezevee
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Sanitarium



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 6891
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MsWesterner wrote:
Sani.....you can play with words all you wish in an attempt to "score brownie points" and get your pound of flesh.......

Read my response again - you have stated something that has not been shown to be true. If you can provide evidence that you are right then by all means! However it is wrong to claim that which is not true is "fact".

MsWesterner wrote:

FFI is banned in some muslim countries and it exposes islam and these countries do not want their people reading it!!! What does this indicate.....that it is insecure, or it wouldnt ban these things!!!

Your conclusion is based on a disproven claim. You need to provide evidence when making claims.

MsWesterner wrote:

and before I post the following....I have asked you politely to cease this personal nonsense, and note that you want me banned!!!

That thread is finished so stop bringing it up to avoid answering my question. If you can't do it, then withdraw your claim!

MsWesterner wrote:

Muslim governments/leaders do block sites because of insecurity......they know that people viewing human rights and freedoms will create unrest!!! So why do you have such a problem with my saying this?

Where is your evidence? I feel I have addressed your claims quite well. I have been looking into this since 2006.

MsWesterner wrote:

Access denied: The OpenNet Initiative (ONI) report singled out China as one of the biggest blockers of online content. According to ONI, China

We are not talking about China but Islamic countries I will only address parts of the article that deal with them.

MsWesterner wrote:

"Over the course of five years, we've gone from just a few places doing state-based technical filtering, like China, Iran, and Saudi Arabia

Yes so? I have already addressed this. See my titling of the screenshots. I do not deny that SA and Iran block sites country wide. However I ALSO showed you that ordinary citizens can nominate sites themselves. So the filtering is done on a state level? So what? How does that refute any of my evidence?

MsWesterner wrote:

But it's not just the sheer number of countries doing content filtering that has grown; it's also the breadth and depth of material being blocked.

Yes this is the point I was making to you. That Islamic countries are blocking that which is unislamic and NOT just sites critical of Islam. You are proving my point.

MsWesterner wrote:

According to the report, China, Iran, and Saudi Arabia remain the top blockers.

Yes, I have provided screenshots of both SA and Iran. What is the relevance here?

MsWesterner wrote:

Each nation filters not just pornography, but also a wide range of political, human-rights, religious, and cultural sites deemed subversive by those countries' governments.

Refresh my memory please - what law do these countries have? You bolded it, so I am sure you are willing to answer! Tell me, in this "law" (hint: Shariah) anything critical of Islam is..... (hint: not allowed!) Now I trust you are understanding my point?

In conclusion you still have not made your case but only made the evidence that I have found stronger. Come on MsWesterner!

MsWesterner wrote:

I note that yeezevee tried to explain it to you also......but that didnt suffice for you.

I have addressed it already re: ISP bans & citizens who can nominate sites to block for themselves.

Please address my OP.

MsWesterner wrote:

of course sites that are banned are incompatible with islamic beliefs because, as I said, many do expose "what is taught and the behaviours" as much of FFI does.

No I have already explained to you that they know their texts and they dont need to block sites if they arent going to prohibit access to the Quran/ahadith. You are adding to the reason your own little jab and that is not factual and not fair.

MsWesterner wrote:

How many times must I ask that you cease this continuing personal discreditation

You may claim this as much as you like - however in this thread I have stuck to the facts and provided much evidence to refute your argument. You will not scare me off by claiming I am making this "personal". From now on any such claims by you will be ignored and I will be watching your posts and pointing out any errors. It seems many are happy to keep FFI's "hate site" reputation but I am not. First we must start with misinformation. You may not be aware, but Muslims will use ANY inaccuracy in information presented as an excuse to ignore ALL information presented. We should avoid making such mistakes so as to not give them an excuse.

Have a nice day!

-Sanitarium
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