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Mughal
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1211
Location: Islamabad,Pakistan Glasgow,Scotland
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 Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Berber wrote: |
| Mughal wrote: |
I would like to clarify the islamic concept regarding status of earlier prophet s' and their followers beliefs and deeds.
The reason the stories of earlier prophets and their followers are told in the quran is so that muslims learn lessons of them and follow them. This is obligatory and absolutely necessary 1/7, 2/286, 4/69. Show us the way of those who were rewarded, says the quran. Earlier muslims had greater obligations than this ummah. There are verses in the quran that clearly tell us slah was imposed upon the past ummahs and so was tawheed (belief in oneness of allah). Jihad was imposed upon them as well as fasting and zakah etc eg see 2/183, 246, 19/13 etc. Hajj was also imposed on ummahs before 22/25-30 etc.
Their words and deed are to be followed as appropriate. For example, when in the mosque, a person should take of his foot-ware. The proof. when moses entered presence of his lord, he was told take off your sandals, for you are in the holy valley of tuwa 20/12.
Just as the quran binds muslims to follow example of muhammad 33/21 so it binds muslims to follow examples of all the good past people and off course of the prophets. There are many verses in the quran as regard this 2/130, 3/31-34, 146,193 etc.
In fact the quran states in the life of abraham and his people are perfect example for you 60/4,6 etc. See verses like 42/13, 25/74, 2/213. Exceptions are only where shariah of muhammad changes from shariahs handed down earlier. For this there has to be a clear proof. For example, if Allah allowed something in the past ummahs then that is also allowed in this ummah of muhammad unless there is clear proof that that is not allowed any longer. Likewise, whatever was forbidden for the past ummahs it remains forbidden for this ummah as well unless it is clearly made lawful.
So when anyone wishes to debate islamic shariah one need to be aware of such facts as I have stated. Obligations remain obligations and sunnahs remain sunnahs and forbidden things remain forbidden and lawful things lawful unless we have proof that that is no longer the case when it comes to shariah handed down to muhammad.
regards and |
you failed to notice this verb كُتِبَ thats what make Salat , fasting and Jihad obligatory . It was not used about Haj during Abraham time. As for verse 19 : 13 I am really surprised that someboy like you who can read Arabic screwed it . The word wa zakatan is not Zakat .This verse does not talk about Zakat at all . You could have picked another verse to state your argument about Zakat you have chosen the wrong verse.
wa zakatan has been translated in English as purity
Kortobi explanation of the word Zakatan
وَزَكَاةً
"الزَّكَاة " التَّطْهِير وَالْبَرَكَة وَالتَّنْمِيَة فِي وُجُوه الْخَيْر وَالْبِرّ ; أَيْ جَعَلْنَاهُ مُبَارَكًا لِلنَّاسِ يَهْدِيهِمْ . وَقِيلَ : الْمَعْنَى زَكَّيْنَاهُ بِحُسْنِ الثَّنَاء عَلَيْهِ كَمَا تُزَكِّي الشُّهُود إِنْسَانًا . وَقِيلَ : " زَكَاة " صَدَقَة بِهِ عَلَى أَبَوَيْهِ ; قَالَهُ اِبْن قُتَيْبَة .
وَكَانَ تَقِيًّا |
Thank you for your correction dear Berber. 9/13 was mistakenly put for 9/31 which is about Jesus not john.
As for HAJJ, if we look at the quranic pattern of description of rituals for ummahs before this, it is very clear that they were exactly the same. This lends weight to the imposition of hajj. Not only that but the context of the verses around the kaba and hajj verses also lends weight to the imposition of hajj as a duty. I mean why give kaba and hajj such wide coverage in the quran as regards its past if it had no much importance for the past ummahs? See 2/124-, 3/96-, 14/35-, 22/25- etc etc.
Besides the quran clearly mentions other pillars of islam so why leave out the hajj?
regards and
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All the best from Mughal at http://www.religionandsecularism.gq.nu/favorite_links.html |
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Haik Monsieur
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 2393
Location: FFI
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Cher Ami Berber,
Prelude: let me congratulate you with the utmost sincerity for coming to the fore with such a detailed response to my last post. I understand there definitely is a lot of effort behind your work (Evident from your delay in responding) which could have been something superb if you were on spot. Still, I have no hesitation to appreciate your attempt to foot on logic, though you failed in that department just for the reason the ideology you represent never corresponds to logic.
After this introductory note, I will add my share to improve your awareness on what went wrong with the above post though you have strained much on course of making it.
| Berber wrote: |
Premises
Major: Abraham is a prophet of god to his community khassatan .
Minor: God reveals his messages through prophets.
Conclusion: So Abraham’s messages are god’s commands. |
Well Berber, nice syllogism, though you should have put the minor one on the top since the conclusion is chiefly based on it. And conclusion doesn’t constitute a message that you are looking for., still a valid one
| Berber wrote: |
Syllogism appending to 1.
Premises:
Major: Abraham commanded his community khassatan with Hajj.
Minor: Abraham was prophet to his community khasattan.
Conclusion: Therefore god commanded Abrahams community khassatan with Hajj |
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You have just begun to analyze, but here pops up a fallacious one. I notified it earlier a syllogism should be corroborative to the facts otherwise it can easily be dismissed. Your above syllogism is fundamentally erroneous. I will explain why.
On logical grounds, it is not impossible to count it with some weight, but that doesn’t secure the steadfastness of final proposition. You present the major premise as a priori truth when in fact it is a posteriori assertion requires verification. Yet you have drawn an affirmative conclusion from a weak induction. It is fallacious.
Another flaw of the syllogism is you are affirming the conclusion through fallacious reasoning. It is an enforced one embezzled from dubious premises. Just because Abraham is a prophet to the community existed then, his command necessitating Hajj can’t be considered as something constricted to the stated community solely because there is an indispensable sequence of progression. While “Z” is the natural successor of “Y” there can be no impeding faculty that will deprive the appointed “X” off the affairs of “Y”.
Finally, viewing it from a theological perspective also effectively dismiss the conclusion. Prophet Lot was sent to the inhabitants of Sodom and not for the whole of humanity. Yet his message forbidding Sodomy has been incessantly pertinent regardless of places or people.
| Berber wrote: |
Premises:
Major: God’s commands are perpetually relevant.
Minor: Hajj is god’s command.
Conclusion: Therefore Hajj is perpetually relevant to Abraham community khassatan. |
Well, this constitutes a perfect exemplar of fallacy of ambiguity. Both premises are sound, but the message you try to convey is ambiguous. It might be because of your failure in truly grasping the essence of eternity. Reaching where you concluded it felt like oxymoronic.
**Perpetuality can not be applied to a closed system, because it essentiates ad infinitum status.
| Berber wrote: |
| Before you tell me yes he can order all mankind I will advise you to read Hadith again . because you failed to undersand it . When a prophet is sent to certain people khassatan whatever its revealed to that prophet concern only that group of people and nobody else . |
Awful supposition! Statement only holds water if you can dismiss prophet Lot and his handling of Sodomites.
| Berber wrote: |
Because Ibn katir is an expert in Tafsir while Haik Monsieur never study it in his life .Unless you have scientific fact I will go with Ibn Katir in this matter . let me play your game
We have John doe never study physics in his life .You are like him you never study Tafsir science. The subject of debate is about physics ok .
Premises:
Major: Albert Einstein is old , but John Doe is not.
Minor: Albert Einstein says X , but John doe says Y.
Conclusion: X is right because Albert Einstein says so.
Will not you accept the conlusion ??? sure you will . |
Of course, that’s why I added this:
| In Previous Post, I wrote: |
| However, appeal to tradition is somewhat applicable when it matters ancient literary works. Still, I haven’t done the same as you accuse me. I didn’t disown either Ibn Kathir , Qurtubi or Jalalin. In fact I endorsed them quoting what they commented about the verses. I didn’t just embark their realm idle, but went further to dissect their comments to reach a conclusion: |
| Berber wrote: |
| How could you say that when you contradicted Ibn katir . He said that it was the verse 3:97 that established Haj while you claim verse 22:27 . |
It wasn’t a contradictory issue my dear friend, Of the many opinions of Ibn Kathir, I glued to 22:27, because Ibn Kathir commented on it and added the call for Hajj which verse 22:27 implicates has been answered by the whole of human beings that will prevail until the day of resurrection. An affirmative answer given by the whole of humanity that would succeed Abraham signifies the obligatory status of Hajj that would commence from the time of call. Otherwise Abraham shouldn’t have had such a cosmopolitan experience that generated from his call.
| Berber wrote: |
Before I comment on this let me put Hadith again
| Quote: |
| All prophets were sent to certain communities, but I have been sent to the whole of humanity. (ILA NNASI) |
Jalalin said that Abraham said to al annas ( it can not be mankind it should be his people khassatan read Hadith above ) God recommended ( Awjaba) on you Haj
Jalilin contradicted Ibn Katir who said just perform haj without using the verb ( Wajaba ) |
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After all this discussion, you have yet to learn to tell apart. You repeat it ad nauseum, which is more than bearable for an ordinary guy like me without any extra sensual powers.
| Berber wrote: |
| Where did you get the word obligatory from the verse 22: 27 . Ibn Katir says that Haj was established as an obligation on Muslims in verse 3: 97 and not 22: 27 . |
I explained the undertone of verse 22:27 many times. A repetition will only add to the fallacy of argumentum ad nauseum.
| Berber wrote: |
| Even if I accept it was obligatory back then , it was not for all mankind because Abraham was sent to his community khassatan remember Hadith . |
Okay, would you pay enough attention to remember when Allah commanded Abraham to proclaim Hajj, and when he did accordingly, there wasn’t a single soul to witness to this from the community he supposedly represented. Weren’t any except perhaps Ishmael?
That’s why this great incident stretches out to the whole of humanity. If it was just for inviting his currents, he could have made them flocked around the house he rebuilt and discharge the message. But god had him proclaiming such an important command to the looming nothingness that dominated the sphere. It was for the whole of mankind that were breathing far off the sphere and to those who were waiting to bloom.
| Berber wrote: |
| You have not explained to me when I asked you this question . Why Muhamed waited 16 years to comply with this so called obligatory duty in Islam ???? , if it were mandatory since time of Abraham |
I didn’t because I was not supposed to. The question you ask me over and over in fact belongs to title question as a subsidiary. You are the one who should find an appropriate answer.
| Berber wrote: |
| You did not read the word in its context. |
Which word? Al Nas? I read and defined it in its true reasonable context,. Many times!.
| Berber wrote: |
| According to Hadith Abraham was sent to his community Khassatan and not to mankind therefore the word al annas should be read in this context using your logic and not mine because I will always translate it as people |
My friend, I explained how the prophets of Islam, (let them be confined to an ignorable flock) imparts their life relevant to ad infinitum. Prophet Yaqoob the father of Yousef wasn’t sent for the whole of mankind, yet the whole of mankind have lessons of patience in his life. Yousef messaged honesty, while Younus’s life conveyed repentance to mankind. You can’t label Islam’s prophets and the message they generated as something impertinent to Muslims, because all were sent with god’s diktats. None of them could have failed to fructify for generations to come as they were porters of Vahy”
| Berber wrote: |
| .When you do so the word al annas must have the meaning of people and not mankind .Remember your buddy Pakistani changes the meaning of al annas several times because you claim the context in the verse decides that so use that concept in verse 22:27 . |
Who’s this Pakistani you are talking about? I don’t have any as my buddy.
| Berber wrote: |
| Yes its about thing which concern people , it may be about other verses . As for zina I do not know what you are talking about , can you explain it to me |
Okay, keep reading...
| Berber wrote: |
| It is irrelevant when it comes what this act should be called in Islam that’s what I meant . I was not talking about punishment .In Islam is called Zina all the time whether couple are married or not therefore the status of couple is irrelevant when it comes naming the act . Did you get it now . |
Zina is a very important matter, because if Quran fails to distinguish between adultery and fornication, it affects the committers in the form of either death or torture. A matter of life and death is highly obvious for a living body. Why don’t you get it? I didn’t get you when you say the perpetrators status is irrelevant…! How come? Remember the consequent punishment has two options and one is deadly. Do you still fail to sense the inadequacy of Quranic dictum on this matter?
| Berber wrote: |
| There are many opinions in interpretation of this verse what you are trying to do is to impose on me the one you like . I showed you Hadith where prophet himself explained who are those Imams . Muhamed counts more than all Mufasirs and case closed |
Too hasty to close the doors..! Muhammad indeed stays high above the level of all succeeded him (Oh! His status is generously paramount that enabled him leading all prophets on the eve of MI’raj.) But …but… you can’t have this man and his teachings without the help of a good number of scholars that lived close to him. The first account of Muhammad’s life took over a century to reach people. So, you can’t simply reach Muhammad without relying on various sources that never was Muhammad’s making. Most importantly, you can’t have your holy book without paying due credits to Othman, Zaid bin Thabith, and Ibn Masood...
Okay… This is stretching to the extreme. I will answer rest of your post soon. Stay on..
Haik Monsieur Habech
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Haik Monsieur
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 2393
Location: FFI
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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I will wind it up:
| Berber wrote: |
| Tawasul nothing is wrong with it not the one that you have is condemned in Koran |
I am not making any business out of Tawassul….. You guys sort it out whether there is any good or evil in that practice. But you failed to grasp what I meant by it. It was to confute your argument death is the end.
| Berber wrote: |
| Quote: |
| 39:43-44: "Or choose they intercessors other than Allah? Say: What! Even though they have power over nothing and have no intelligence? Say: the intercession belongs to Allah." |
in this one below is nothing wrong with it .
definition of Tawassul : Tawassul (Arabic: توسل ) is an Islamic religious practice in which a Muslim seeks nearness to Allah. A rough translation would be: "To draw near to what one seeks after and to approach that which one desires." The exact definition and method of tawassul is a matter of some dispute within the Muslim community. |
This explanation is poor in its substance. Tawassul is a prayer in which the praying one using an intermediary. I will give you an example of Tawassul prayer: “Oh Allah, I ask you with the virtuosity of Muammad, forgive my sins.”
In Arabic for your easy digestion: “Allahumma innee, As’aluka bi haqi Muhammadin,, Asthaghfirlee”
This is tawassul. Bookmark it.
| Berber wrote: |
| Istighaza is Shia practise and not Sunis . it is is blasephemy to me. This is what koran called shirk . Arabs during Muhamed time they too knew Allah and recognized him as the creator of heaven and earth , but they were called Mushriks , why ? because they used intermediaries to reach Allah . |
I can’t stop laughing…. Istighaza is a Shia practice? I didn’t think your knowledge of your faith is this much limited.
You know Imam Abu Hanifa who can by any chance be labeled as a Shia? One of his poetic works is still paramount in popularity as he prays directly to prophet Muhammad. I know the lines, but what fun would be there if I leave you idle? Go check yourself.
A small list of Awlias Sunni Muslims usually doing Istighaza: First group is the participants of Badr, then Uhud, Khandaq.. then necessarily the Tabieun, after that a prominent figure being Abdel Qadir Gilani of Baghdad, then Ahmed Rifai, Sheikh Ahmed Surhindi, Sheikh Juneid el Baghdadi… the list is too long.
Besides, there are countless local Awlias too. All of them are venerated, prayed upon… and what else…?
None of the above is a Shia. But of course Shias too have their share of divine personalities. But you can’t constrict this practice imposed upon Shias only.
If you need citation for this, ask me when you respond. I will be more than glad to cite SUNNI sources.
| Berber wrote: |
| You have to show me a verse in koran or Hadith concerning Imams as leader even after death and not what some Muslim sect are saying . |
Yaaaawn…. This discussion turned out to be an online tuition now. I never promised. But..
A tired up answer: Isn’t Muhammad your prophet until the Day of Judgment? You have to follow this man blindly until the hour is established. What does it mean following a man in all aspects? How does such a guy disqualify as IMAM? An IMAM in a very narrow sense dwells in your nearest mosque leading faithful in prayers. Then how great an IMAM Muhammad can be though he isn’t alive anywhere over this planet anymore?
| Berber wrote: |
| Since when English dictionaries begin to substitute Arabic Quran |
A dictionary can’t substitute a prose or poetry. You were bringing something from a French dictionary, so I asked;. This counter question of yours is redirected to you. Okay?
| Berber wrote: |
| The word al annas is people . I showed you from hadith how prophet Muhamed used it and understood it .when he ordered Omar to call on al annas why he used the word al annas ? he could have used in another word , if al annas meant for him mankind . You are trying to tell me that some Pakistanis know Arabic better than Muhamed . If this Pakistani man translated the word al nnas as mankind he should stick to it , but he did not do that . H e came to some verses he realized that if he used the word mankind , the verses will have no meaning at all so he changed it to people . Are the word mankind and people interchangeable in English ? of course not . One is bigger picture while the other is part of that big picture. If I decide to name a vehicle Mercedes Benz then I cannot call one part of the vehicle lets say tire Mercedes Benz. It is the same with mankind and people because people are one part of mankind |
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Dear friend, what are these all about? I don’t do any business with any Pakistani at the moment.
People and mankind aren’t interchangeable in English, because English is too rich a language borrowing apt phrases from all available lingos. BUT Quran is different. If in a few verses of Quran NAS is used to represent a small gathering, many other verses can be found emphasizing NAS as denotative of mankind. All it takes is just to read and comprehend them in their context.
| Berber wrote: |
| No the ignorant is you . Who told you that the word al annas is mankind ? Pakistani man so without him you would not have known this term . Therefore you cannot debate me about it . You have never used in writing Arabic essays like I did . |
You have high opinions of your aptitudes. Good, keep it up.
But how did this Pakistani obsession affected you to the extent of seeking remedial means? I haven’t written any essays in Arabic, because, there are more ways to write essays without corresponding to ambiguity. Ah…but you have. Still you fail to read at least a few verses of Quran and analyze them in their context!! Incredible…!
| Berber wrote: |
| You are trying to say if Muhamed had not used the word khassathan , he would not have used the word kafatan this is non sene .This is another hadith where Muhamed used al annas kaffatan even though there were no mention of the word khassatan |
That isn’t what I implied: Read it again : “The phrase KAFFATAN is used only to emphatically beautify the sentence.”
| Berber wrote: |
(I have been given five things which were not given to any Prophet before me, and I do not say it out of pride. I was sent to all mankind (their) black and white alike. Allah made me victorious by fright, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey. The spoils of war are lawful for me, yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform purification with. I have been given the Shafa'ah (right of intercession), and I saved it for my Ummah on the Day of Resurrection. Therefore, the Shafa'ah will reach those who associate none with Allah in worship.) This Hadith's chain of narration is suitable, but the Two Sahihs did not record it. Allah's statement,
Here is verse with no mention of any body else or khasatan
34: 28. Wama arsalnaka illa kaffatan lilnnasi basheeran wanatheeran walakinna akthara alnnasi la yaAAlamoona
34 : 28. We have not sent thee but as a universal (Messenger) to men, giving them glad tidings, and warning them (against sin), but most men understand not. |
You are apparently struggling…. Fain you sweat a lot. You can’t impose what you want; on a phrase Quran used denotative of mankind. Because, it is clear, unequivocal from Quranic verses NAS means mankind. You haven’t the propensity to confute a single verse which I brought in my defense. Instead of it, you are panic-stricken. Going through hadiths, remolding their meaning fittingly… But…nothing is going to help you until you effectively dismiss the verses I brought. Do it first, then we can discuss on hadiths.
And who is this translator above? To translate NAS as Men? Men is the plural form of man… kind of misogyny.
| Berber wrote: |
Ibn katir interpretation :
The Prophet was sent to all of Mankind Allah says to His servant and Messenger Muhammad :
[وَمَآ أَرْسَلْنَـكَ إِلاَّ كَآفَّةً لِّلنَّاسِ بَشِيراً وَنَذِيراً]
(And We have not sent you except as a giver of glad tidings and a warner to all mankind,) i.e., to all of creation among those who are accountable for their deeds. This is like the Ayah:
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=34&tid=42559
here is another one
7: 158. Qul ya ayyuha alnnasu innee rasoolu Allahi ilaykum jameeAAan allathee lahu mulku alssamawati waal-ardi la ilaha illa huwa yuhyee wayumeetu faaminoo biAllahi warasoolihi alnnabiyyi al-ommiyyi allathee yu/minu biAllahi wakalimatihi waittabiAAoohu laAAallakum tahtadoona
7: 158. Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Apostle of God, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in God and His Apostle, the Unlettered Prophe t, who believeth in God and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."
Ibn Katir interpretation :
Muhammad's Message is Universal
Allah says to His Prophet and Messenger Muhammad ,
[قُلْ]
(Say), O Muhammad,
[يَـأَيُّهَا النَّاسُ]
(O mankind!), this is directed to mankind red and black, and the Arabs and non-Arabs alike,
[إِنِّى رَسُولُ اللَّهِ إِلَيْكُمْ جَمِيعًا]
(I am sent to you all as the Messenger of Allah,) This Ayah mentions the Prophet's honor and greatness, for he is the Final Prophet who was sent to all mankind [and the Jinns]. Allah said,
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=7&tid=18908
As you can notice none of those verses or Hadith where the word al annas was mentioned alone to mean mankind it was always attached to words such as kaffatan ( all ) or orjameeAAan ( general . Why ??? because the word al annas for Arabs means people only . I wonder why Muhamed ordered Omar to call al annas because it did not mean to him mankind .How could he sent Omar to call on mankind it just does not make sense . The word al annas has only one meaning is people . PERIOD . You got it now ???? You have been defeated on the subject , but you are arrogant you will never accept the defeat . |
Why are you so obsessed with winning an argument?
So, let me put an end to your penurious struggle. KAFFATAN, JAMEEAN these are stressed auxiliary forms used to emphasize or beautify a sentence. Just like when it says in English “I do remember my first day in college”. It can be simply put as “I remember my first day…” but the auxiliary DO is adding an emphasis to the verb.
Next, there is a verse in Quran “Udkhuloo Fissilmi Kaffathan” meant “Enter you all in Islam fully” Does KAFFATAN can be read here as ALL as you noted above? Then the whole sentence should be pointlessly translated as “Enter you all in Islam all’ Does it make a lot sense to you?
| Berber wrote: |
First it was not my interpretation .You must be really lazy person . Had you checked tafsir of Ibn katir and Jalalin of verse 1: 2 you would not have humiliated yourself.
| Quote: |
Ibn katir interpretation :
The Meaning of Al-`Alamin
Al-`Alamin is plural for `Alam, which encompasses everything in existence except Allah. The word `Alam is itself a plural word, having no singular form. The `Alamin are different creations that exist in the heavens and the earth, on land and at sea. Every generation of creation is called an `Alam. Al-Farra` and Abu `Ubayd said, "`Alam includes all that has a mind, the Jinns, mankind, the angels and the devils, but not the animals.'' Also, Zayd bin Aslam and Abu Muhaysin said, `Alam includes all that Allah has created with a soul.'' Further, Qatadah said about,
[رَبِّ الْعَـلَمِينَ]
(The Lord of the `Alamin), "Every type of creation is an `Alam.'' Az-Zajjaj also said, "Alam encompasses everything that Allah created, in this life and in the Hereafter.'' Al-Qurtubi commented, "This is the correct meaning, that the `Alam encompasses everything that Allah created in both worlds. Similarly, Allah said,
[قَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ وَمَا رَبُّ الْعَـلَمِينَ - قَالَ رَبُّ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَآ إِن كُنتُمْ مُّوقِنِينَ ]
(Fir`awn (Pharaoh) said: "And what is the Lord of the `Alamin'' Musa (Moses) said: "The Lord of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, if you seek to be convinced with certainty'') (26:23-24).
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=1&tid=336 |
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After reading both Tafsirs carefully, I don’t get an impression Alamin is mankind. It signifies all worlds, the whole of universe which contains, human beings, djinns….
How does it can be used to denote the whole of mankind? You are yet to explain it..
| Berber wrote: |
second I have used it long time ago in thread before we started this debate so don’t tell me I am using here to win my argument .Do not play dumb with me
This is what I said : These are the verses which shows message of koran is for all mankind
Your reply was : Only “Alameena” is denotative of mankind? Then what is very first verse of Quran speaks of?
(1:2) Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Alhamdu lillahi rabbi alAAalameena
الْحَمْدُ للّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ.
How do you conclude from my statement above that I meant God is only for mankind ???
This only shows that you did not understand what the word al alameen mean in Arabic , so when I explained it you got humiliated .
Al alameen means the worlds
Worlds = world of humans , angles , animals , plant , jins and so on
So lord of worlds ( rabbi al lameen ) will be the lord of humans , animals , angles , jins and so on
Did you learn something new ?? |
Yes. I learned your character quite well. You will go to any length to justify your mistakes. What you initially asserted is:
| Earlier Berber wrote: |
These are the verses which shows message of koran is for all mankind . Watch the word used there for universality of the message of koran as well as Muhamed .The word aalameen is used and not al annas. I will show just one verse the rest are the same
[25: 1] Blessed is He Who sent down the Criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures;
1. Tabaraka allathee nazzala alfurqana AAala AAabdihi liyakoona lilAAalameena natheeran |
What does it explicate? You went on preaching ALAMEENA has a meaning mankind. I had to challenge it using the same Quran: What I asked is if ALAMEENA refers to mankind, shouldn’t RABBUL ALAMEENA mean Allah is the lord of mankind only? What’s wrong in asking so?
Now you change the plate. Naaa….
| Berber wrote: |
I am teaching you Arabic language and Islam so just relax , do not mad  . I can be better teacher than any Pakistanis man because Arabic is my mother tongue and I have access to the best Mufasirs of Koran . So listen and pay attention to me |
Your pride in your mother tongue, and the prejudice no one else can combat you in this department is noted. I have no business with them at all.
Having mastery in a single language, still a language that you testify is your mother tongue is no big deal. Almost all native speakers can vouch the same.
You can’t get hold of stars with these nauseating means of self flattery.
A star will neither bloom to glow your sycophancy.
Cheers
Haik Monsieur Habech
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Haik Monsieur
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 2393
Location: FFI
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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sorry double post
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Last edited by Haik Monsieur on Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Haik Monsieur
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 2393
Location: FFI
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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And this is for Ahmed Bahgat,
Dear Ahmed,
We had a brief engagement in the past, but that turned out to be a huge disappointment for me. You made an excellent impression on me with a couple of posts. The moment I became aware how many logical fallacies can be congested in a single post within the pace of few sentences.
You love ad hominem a lot. And you never was a failure in it.
So, keep the post for yourself unto a period you make yourself certain of keeping a cool head. Let the readers of this forum decide whether you deserve a hectare of River Thames for your efforts so far.
Haik Monsieur Habech.
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AhmedBahgat
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Haik Monsieur wrote: |
And this is for Ahmed Bahgat,
Dear Ahmed,
We had a brief engagement in the past, but that turned out to be a huge disappointment for me. You made an excellent impression on me with a couple of posts. The moment I became aware how many logical fallacies can be congested in a single post within the pace of few sentences.
You love ad hominem a lot. And you never was a failure in it.
So, keep the post for yourself unto a period you make yourself certain of keeping a cool head. Let the readers of this forum decide whether you deserve a hectare of River Thames for your efforts so far.
Haik Monsieur Habech. |
Hello
Is that your refute or you activated the damage recovery mode?
you are dismissed in the ignorant rubbish bin
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AhmedBahgat
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:13 am Post subject: |
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Hey boys and girls, I have a message from BMZ who posts at All_Brain web site:
| BMZ wrote: |
Salaams, Ahmed
Which dumb woman was that? I know only three. They are Ms.Westerner, fire_snake and Mersk. However, I am sure it could not have been Ms.Westerner for she cannot see past through her nose. :lol:
Please let the dumb lady know that Qur'aan came after all biblical prophets, mentioned in Qur'aan, had expired centuries ago.
Most of the Biblical prophets lived in Israel and visited Jerusalem, which was also the Temple of God.
Jesus, reportedly, also walked a total of approximately 24,000 kilometres within a period of 24 months at the rate of 30 kilometres per day but he never crossed the Jordan. Jesus is also reported to have done a "Triumphal Hajj" of Jerusalem.
Abraham was a travelling-sort of prophet who traversed the valleys and other challenging landscapes from Arabia to Hebron, including some areas up North and some down South.
The FFI goons, naturally being dumb, do not realise that Muhammad was told to revive the practice of Hajj which was done by Abraham and his followers.
Haven't read much of Haik Monsieur. Will try to read his junk and stuff, when I proxy in. However, ask him this question:
"Why were Muslims not ordered to go to Jerusalem for Hajj?" Load him up with another hint question, "Why did Allah allow Muhammad to change the Qibla from Jerusalem to Mecca?"
Once you have posted, please let me know the link and I will follow. I may get busy on Topix.com, to see how Anti-Jihad is blasting the Muslims there. He has "invited" me there. :lol:
Salaams
BMZ |
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fire-snake
Joined: 25 Jun 2007
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MsWesterner
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 11888
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: |
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and slaveboy BMZ's intellect or arrogance hasnt improved either
ahmed....go back and remind him of his pedophile prophets commonalities with other so called prophets regarding behaviours, personality type etc
e.g. joseph smith, and here we had a "male calling himself a prophet too" and he too liked little girls, and conned people into believing it was quite ok - but this "prophet" is in jail and there is no god or allah who is saving him lol |
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AhmedBahgat
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: |
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For the two dumb women above, i have a message for you:
| BMZ wrote: |
Thanks for posting that message. As expected, there was an immdiate incoherent response from the two women, named earlier.
Can you invite those two here?
I am taking this opportunity to ask All_Brains if this type of cross-referencing and cross-posting is permitted or not.
Salaams
BMZ |
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fire-snake
Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 2184
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Hahahaha since when did you become a parrot of BMZ, Bahgat??
this is so funny. it looks like
Allah > Jibril > Muhammad.
MBZ > Bahgat > FFI
very funny!!! |
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AhmedBahgat
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 10001
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| fire-snake wrote: |
Hahahaha since when did you become a parrot of BMZ, Bahgat??
this is so funny. it looks like
Allah > Jibril > Muhammad.
MBZ > Bahgat > FFI
very funny!!! |
I'm always his parrot you dumb
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Seekeroftruth
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 176
Location: Botswana
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| fire-snake wrote: |
Hahahaha since when did you become a parrot of BMZ, Bahgat??
this is so funny. it looks like
Allah > Jibril > Muhammad.
MBZ > Bahgat > FFI
very funny!!! |
Seems like Mohammedans are incapable of standing alone on their own two feet the mob mentality runs deep inside them . Which is of course why Ahmed must parrot what BMZ says. Just look at the pathetic Cartoon riots and general Mohammedan group outrage and illogical rioting on any slight pretext.
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If Freewill' exists why does allah SEAL peoples minds?
If allah is logical and merciful why does HE punish those whose minds HE has sealed.
If allah is not Satan then why does he act so sadistically and illogically. |
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fire-snake
Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 2184
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: |
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AhmedBahgat
| Quote: |
| I\'m always his parrot you dumb |
Thanks for confirming it. |
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AhmedBahgat
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