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Death Threat For the Author of the Prophet of Doom
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daffodil

Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 209

Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:56 pm Post subject:

Ash Shuura wrote:

Meanwhile, I will deal with the issue as much as my intelligence permits in the way I see fit.

Nevertheless, I shall appreciate your wisdom if you can help make a case in what way condemnations serve to satisfy your suspicions and how they are going to convince would be terrorists to stop? May the curse of GOD be upon them. Do you think I have more chance getting through to them by condeming them? How would you deal with such irrationality and people who are slaves to their anger and destructive emotions?

regards

Peace to you too, Ash Shura.

To be honest, I don't know how I would deal with the issue. I'd have to be a muslim first to decide. I do know I wouldn't have remained a muslim for long, because if there is an 'issue' of this magnitude it means something is wrong somewhere. Besides the Quran has no appeal to me. I've read various religions and can find something of value or beauty in Christianity, buddhism, hinduism and kabbalah, but Islam is curiously devoid of these characteristics, unless you find great poetry in lines exhorting one to 'believe! for allah heareth and knoweth everything!'. Not exactly earth shaking, is it?

So step 1 would be to become an apostate and then the next would be to try and drum some sense in others. I have done that with my own faith which I was born into, scandalising many, but forcing them to think. The more free thinkers you have the less the terrorism. There are many in the muslim world and it is they who are initiating change, albeit too slowly, because there are too few of them.

So what can you do? Dunno, write a book, or go on talkshows and speak against hadiths and terrorism. YOu are as responsible for the welfare of this world as I am. Shout on the road of you have to. Maybe the next WTC bomber will hear you and sit down to think before he pulls the plug.

daffodil

Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 209

Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:59 pm Post subject:

.... Last edited by daffodil on Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:01 pm; edited 2 times in total

Ash Shuura

Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 67

Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:32 pm Post subject:

daffodil wrote:

Hello again daffodil,

I thank you for your candid response. I agree with you there is indeed something wrong somewhere. I looked at this problem a little differently as my life experience and background tells me that having a code of conduct is one thing and not paying lip service to it is another.

I have examined a lot of people who claim to follow the faith I did and examined the basis of their beliefs/values. Without impressing my views on you. which must remain as a hypothesis. I found both paying lip service and contradictions between the alleged sources.

I have therefore not established any particular issue to be the problem. However, the problem I find with your hypothesis is that it directly links the undesirable behaviour of some directly to its religious sources. I don't think such a bold assertion can be made. If there is such reasoning please point me towards the argument. Here it seems an assumption has been made as if people follow their stated belief system.

Quote:

So step 1 would be to become an apostate and then the next would be to try and drum some sense in others. I have done that with my own faith which I was born into, scandalising many, but forcing them to think.

I have not found evidence to suggest this action in anyway is rational. As I don't think I have proven any of the teachings as a false moral code. This is a pretty tough assertion to prove. The teachings appear at face value to most here as unacceptable. However, what I find is a totally different understanding than most here. There is a lot that I don't understand true, but I think there is more than meets the eye in a positive way. However, one must be prepared to consider that possibility and be absolutely rigorous about the issue in order to make a sound judgement on the matter.

Quote:

The more free thinkers you have the less the terrorism. There are many in the muslim world and it is they who are initiating change, albeit too slowly, because there are too few of them.

Absolutely. For me this means that I do not know best although I can reason, grow and attempt to arrive at a unified belief/ value system which is inline with universal harmony. I believe these values are there to be understood but I am not wise enough to manufacture within and come up with what is universally reconcilable.

Quote:

So what can you do? Dunno, write a book, or go on talkshows and speak against hadiths and terrorism. YOu are as responsible for the welfare of this world as I am. Shout on the road of you have to. Maybe the next WTC bomber will hear you and sit down to think before he pulls the plug.

Again I agree with you mostly though my knowledge is so basic right now that I will be eaten alive, hence I need a degree of growth. Nonetheless, I debate on a few forums and I do speak my mind.

Meanwhile, I believe in making positive waves in my life that contribute to the welfare of humanity. As for becoming a law enforcement official I think ignorance is dangerous especially when lives are involved, I don't fancy a career as a negotiator, I think my strenghts lay elsewhere.

I appreciated your input very much, thanks and regards

Peace

doubtless

Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 6442

Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:23 pm Post subject:

Quote:

However, the problem I find with your hypothesis is that it directly links the undesirable behaviour of some directly to its religious sources.

If it waddles like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck.

Emperical evidence cuts through a lot a hand waving and excuses. Islam has a 1450 years of history available to be examined. Those who have claimed to follow it have left a legacy, and that legacy is not confusing. It is rather clear. Right from the time of Mohammad till now, Islam has been bloody and cruel.
When the beheaders, the suicide bombers, the killers of apostates, etc. are yelling allahuakbae and crediting Islam for their actions, it is stupid to deny the obvious fact: Islam is the motivation of these killers and has been for a millenia and a half.
_________________
Ali Sina: "The truth is out there for those who want to see it. It is beyond doubt."

Rg Veda: "He who surveys it in the highest heaven; He surely knows - or maybe He does not!"

Last edited by doubtless on Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

Leia

Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 1693

Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:06 pm Post subject:

Article unavailable as per the author's request. Restoration is possible upon request. --administrator

Ash Shuura

Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 67

Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:55 pm Post subject:

Doubtless,

Quote:

If it waddles like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. Emperical evidence cuts through a lot a hand waving and excuses.

Help me out here, I am struggling to understand your basis for this value judgement of yours. What are your principles?

The Golden rule? Or some other value system?

Otherwise, I don't follow your reasoning. I fail to understand how can one make just decisions when they do not go beyond reasonable doubt.

Thanks

Humanist

Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 8520
Location: Kentucky, USA

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:46 am Post subject:

Ash Shuura wrote:

Doubtless,

Quote:

If it waddles like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. Emperical evidence cuts through a lot a hand waving and excuses.

The old saying that I was always told is "If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck and has webbed feet, then I call it a DUCK"

The underlying message is when you are looking at a duck how much information do you need before you call it a duck. So if an Islamic fundamentalist waddles like an Islamic fundamentalist, quacks like an Islamic fundamentalist, and he is a Quran thumping Islamic fundamentalist then why not call him an Islamic fundamentalist.
_________________
"Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell

doubtless

Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 6442

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:45 am Post subject:

Ash Shuura wrote:

Doubtless,

Quote:

If it waddles like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. Emperical evidence cuts through a lot a hand waving and excuses.

Thank you, Humanist.

Every action does not have to be beyond a reasonable doubt. As a matter of fact it cannot be. There is something called common sense. When kids go to a new school and they are to make new friends, they do not evaluate every single person in detail. Judgements are made based upon one's lifes experiences and knowledge. When one hangs around "gang members" most of whom have served time behind bars one is likely to find trouble. It is stupid not to take that into account when deciding.

Ignoring 1450 years of Islamic history is just as stupid if not more. When 99.9999% of the terrorists, beheaders, and suicide bombers are self proclaimed followers of the Quran, and when there are sectarian killings taking place around the world in the name of mohammad and the quran and when people are still being enslaved and killed by the hundreds of thousands in the name of islam, is it not kind of stupid to ignore all that emperical evidence in favor of some fringe group claiming that all those millions upon millions of "traditionalist" muslims just got it wrong and that this tiny group knows the "true reading, knows the "true Islam"? Forget about all the killings, all the beheadings, all the enslaving, all the destruction of cultures and civilisations over a 1000 years, and put your trust in this "nice" group that says "trust us, for we know better; trust us and let us show that the book that produced unimaginable horror for so long is truly a book filled with love". Look, they tell us, we say HIslam to their interpretation to distinguish it between them and our "true and loving and peaceful Islam", and forget about the 1450 years of history; forget about the Armenians butchered, forget about the hindus slaughtered, forget about all the dhimmis paying jizya with submission and humiliation through out the Islamic lands, forget about that the filthy Najis Kaffirs are not allowed to even step foot in Mecca or Medina, forget about how the children of Beslan, forget about how people jumped out of the WTC from so so so high windows, forget about how the Hislmacists cried Allahuakabar and praised their mohammad and distributed sweets and danced with joy at the humiliation of the Kaafirs; yes forget about all of that and listen to the voice of reason they say.
Hey, don't trust us, they will say. Examine all the evidence for yourself. Look at the magic of 19 as the proof of allah's word. Look at our translation as the proof of the love in the Quran. But as that new kid in a new school, it turns out I use common sense. I do not buy TV set from the trunk of a car. I do not buy a diamond ring from a guy in a bar. I do not walk in a well known rough neighborhood at 3 am in the morning all by myself. And I do all that without ever asking whether it is beyond a reasonable doubt.
When I do want to reject that fringe group beyond a reasonable doubt, I go and read Ali Sina versus Edip Yuksel and confirm that my common sense judgement was not all that bad. It held me in good stead once again.
_________________
Ali Sina: "The truth is out there for those who want to see it. It is beyond doubt."

Rg Veda: "He who surveys it in the highest heaven; He surely knows - or maybe He does not!"

Last edited by doubtless on Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:48 am; edited 1 time in total

Ash Shuura

Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 67

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:15 pm Post subject:

doubtless wrote:

Every action does not have to be beyond a reasonable doubt. As a matter of fact it cannot be. There is something called common sense. When kids go to a new school and they are to make new friends, they do not evaluate every single person in detail. Judgements are made based upon one's lifes experiences and knowledge. When one hangs around "gang members" most of whom have served time behind bars one is likely to find trouble. It is stupid not to take that into account when deciding.

Doubtless,

Good point. However, we must look into the circumstances and its impact. The rules of making friendships do not result in hate campaigns and ostracising a people. The end result of what you advocate is a raise in temper and emotions. Its humanities division and clashing at stake, but you people have even gone back on the definition of humanity.

Hence, your premise is false. If the impact of the judgement means this then it has to be at a higher standard; beyond reasonable doubt. Otherwise, I can't see how you are being rational by spreading emotion of hatred. I have never seen so many people who use this word btw.

Quote:

Ignoring 1450 years of Islamic history is just as stupid if not more.

So, the other civilisations are innocent and its all the fault of muslims in particular. This is a playground argument and ignores the fact that your version of history and mine are quite different. Who said I subscribe to yours? This is the job of the historians, meanwhile do you condone ostrocising muslims or any other people for that matter because of history?

Quote:

When 99.9999% of the terrorists, beheaders, and suicide bombers are self proclaimed followers of the Quran,

Self proclaimed being the operative word, it does not prove they're not hypocrites to their own belief system as we can see many are hypocrites to their "golden rule". You will not be able to prove that statistic of yours since your eye glass is not properly calibrated, do not give statistics you can't prove. Since we had 1 incident recently in Northern Ireland even if you attach the probability of it not being catholic militants then you've blown your stats for 2005. You need 1 million terrorist incidents for the year.

Quote:

and when there are sectarian killings taking place around the world in ,

True this is taking place then again it ignores the fact that they may be hypocrites to their own beliefs and may not even know their behaviour code. Nonetheless, you're conveniently ignoring muslim oppression around the globe.

Quote:

is it not kind of stupid to ignore all that emperical evidence in favor of some fringe group claiming that all those millions upon millions of "traditionalist" muslims just got it wrong and that this tiny group knows the "true reading, knows the "true Islam"?

If a boeing plane crashed normally you would blame the muslims, but say you blamed boeing since lets say they has 2 crashes this year, but instead without investigating whether its the flight systems, its hydraulicss you've grounded the entire fleet. No, you have to go beyond the superficial. You need to establish the common threads and dig deeper to the cause. If there are statistical concentrations in a certain area, in a certain gathering place. Then you know who is responsible. Attributing it to millions and millions is false.

Quote:

and put your trust in this "nice" group that says "trust us, for we know better; trust us and let us show that the book that produced unimaginable horror for so long is truly a book filled with love".

No one is telling you trust us more than I trust you not to spread mischief and be a precursor to a future genocide, its coming all thanks to FFI. Deal with the content rather than substance.

From what I see is that either most of you are hypocrites to the golden rule or you want to be treated with the way you treat us.

Quote:

and forget about the 1450 years of history; forget about the Armenians butchered, forget about the hindus slaughtered,

I know my own history and I know where some muslim populations use to live. Where did they disappear? Hence, do not be hypocritical on history and expect us to let you make a case for ostrocising people.

Quote:

forget about all the dhimmis paying jizya with submission and humiliation through out the Islamic lands,

Some corrupt kings have twisted the meaning of 9:29, its the only word translated as "tax" in the reading whilst everwhere else in the reading it has a totally different meaning. Its not hard to figure out why this has been done. Were all your kings fine and dandy? Dear you wiped out the Aztec and Inca populations! They were hypocrites to their own "Golden Rule".

Quote:

forget about that the filthy Najis Kaffirs are not allowed to even step foot in Mecca or Medina,

I am with you on that one, I have no business in the temples of idol worship.

Quote:

forget about how the children of Beslan, forget about how people jumped out of the WTC from so so so high windows,

No one will forget this come on, its absolutely abhorent, may the perpatrators face ruin in the here and beyond. What is abhorent is to certain sick people use these victims memories as a pawn for their impending persecution, mind control which will no doubt result in genocide.

Quote:

When I do want to reject that fringe group beyond a reasonable doubt, I go and read Ali Sina versus Edip Yuksel and confirm that my common sense judgement was not all that bad. It held me in good stead once again.

This is your view, I suggest go and read it from Edips site as well just to maintain impartiality. Ali Sina's arguments are flawed anyone who can think will see this, but yes I respect your opinion despite you fail to demonstrate any sense of rationality.

regards

justakaffir

Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 324

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:37 pm Post subject:

Quote:

No one will forget this come on, its absolutely abhorent, may the perpatrators face ruin in the here and beyond.

You bet your muslim ass we won't forget it.

Quote:

What is abhorent is to certain sick people use these victims memories as a pawn for their impending persecution, mind control which will no doubt result in genocide.

Awwww, the muslim acting the victim again. How sad...

Meanwhile, while we are all reflecting on our sadness for the genocide of the muslims:

Kids and woman get killed. But please - don't use these pictures for any other genocide, please don't!

Trepass on places of worship. Oh but please, don't use this to enter Madka or MADina, please don't.

_________________
Someone set up us the bomb!

Student1

Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 2825

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:46 pm Post subject:

Quote:

You should consider that fact that Muslims like to refer to their religion as the "Religion of Peace". Yet, their history tells a very very different story.

It is funny that on one hand, Muslims refer to Islam as a religion of peace, and on the other, they were very proud of the fact that Islam had once conquered so much territory before.

Perhaps they had failed to see the hypocrisy here.

Quote:

Quote:
When 99.9999% of the terrorists, beheaders, and suicide bombers are self proclaimed followers of the Quran,

Self proclaimed being the operative word, it does not prove they're not hypocrites to their own belief system as we can see many are hypocrites to their "golden rule".

Regardless, they are a threat to our society. The real hypocrites may be the Muslims who dress up in suits and tell us that Islam is a religion of peace on tv. While in their private lives, they give support to these terrorists.
We have already closed down many an Islamic charity for such involvement. More will come.

Quote:

On the contrary, it is Muslims who ignore their brutality towards non-Muslims.

Will the Arab League or OIC bring to justice the Arab fighters in Sudan who killed over a million Blacks?

Will the Arab League or OIC bring Indonesia for justice for its brutality towards the Christians in East Timor over the past few decades??

Did the Arab League or OIC do anything to bring Saddam Hussein to justice?

Did the Arab League or OIC do anything to bring Jordan to justice for killing so many Palestinians in Black September massacre??

In all cases, the answer was 'No'.

And there wasn't any public backlash from the Ummah against the criminals either....

Quote:

Look...the 9/11 prepetrators were Muslims. So, quit your conspiracy theories and such..

And many Muslims around the world do not view OBL and his gang as criminals. In fact, many Muslims were very unhappy that the US attacked Taliban Afganistan, the regime that offered shelter and training grounds to OBL's Al-Qaida.

Many Muslims around the world were also unhappy when Israel popped the lights of Hamas spiritual leader, Sheikh Yassin. It kinda highlighted that most Muslims viewed Hamas members as heroes and defenders of Islam, instead of criminals and violators of Islam's teachings.

Quote:

Personally, I hoping that Muslims in the West disappear back to Pakistan, Egypt, Morrocco and wherever they came from.

They are more of a social menace and liability than positive contribution to society.

The crass arrogance of Muslims, to migrate to our lands, and demand that we alter our laws to accomodate them.

Quote:

Quote:
forget about that the filthy Najis Kaffirs are not allowed to even step foot in Mecca or Medina,

I am with you on that one, I have no business in the temples of idol worship.

So you mean you will not make a pilgrimmage trip to Mecca.

Glad that you also feel that the haj is nothing more than a money-making ploy by the Sauds or whoever is holding onto Mecca.

Silly of Muslims to bow down before a rock and coming up with all kinds of dumb excuses to say it is not idol-worship!

Quote:

Quote:
forget about how the children of Beslan, forget about how people jumped out of the WTC from so so so high windows,

No one will forget this come on, its absolutely abhorent, may the perpatrators face ruin in the here and beyond. What is abhorent is to certain sick people use these victims memories as a pawn for their impending persecution, mind control which will no doubt result in genocide.

What is really abhorent is that Muslims do not view the Islamic warriors who slewed so many kids at Belsan as criminals.

When was the last time the Ummah inflicted Islamic militant groups with public backlash, demonstrations, and withdrawal of public support/donations for their role in terrorism??

Quote:

but yes I respect your opinion despite you fail to demonstrate any sense of rationality.

If you are one of those who believe that you are off to the great whorehouse in the sky after you die, then you aren't that qualified to judge us about rationality.
_________________
Islam stands for injustice!

daffodil

Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 209

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:39 pm Post subject:

Ash Shuura wrote:

I have therefore not established any particular issue to be the problem. However, the problem I find with your hypothesis is that it directly links the undesirable behaviour of some directly to its religious sources. I don't think such a bold assertion can be made. If there is such reasoning please point me towards the argument. Here it seems an assumption has been made as if people follow their stated belief system.

Dear Ash Shura,

Why don't we see Buddhists blowing up buildings and beheading people? If undesirable behavoir is not linked to religion we should have seen some buddhists behaving like Islamic terrorists too. What do you think is the reason? Here's what I think -

There is no ambiguity in Buddha's message. 'Do not kill' is not preceded by 'Do kill'.
It really IS a religion of peace. I haven't heard even one buddhist complain of how misunderstood the religion is, something muslims are always doing. It can only mean the world is not feeling any threat from buddhists.
Buddha's life is an open story, he had no mistresses or swords in either hand. Like the teacher so is the follower.

We find madcaps in any society but muslim society has them wholesale!

Quote:

I have not found evidence to suggest this action in anyway is rational. As I don't think I have proven any of the teachings as a false moral code.
Hoevever, one must be prepared to consider that possibility and be absolutely rigorous about the issue in order to make a sound judgement on the matter.

Fair enough, you think Islam has no visible faults at the moment but are prepared to be openminded about it if proved wrong in the future? Way to go!

Quote:

Again I agree with you mostly though my knowledge is so basic right now that I will be eaten alive, hence I need a degree of growth. Nonetheless, I debate on a few forums and I do speak my mind.

Don't stop!

Thanks for YOUR input!

doubtless

Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 6442

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:08 pm Post subject:

Quote:

The rules of making friendships do not result in hate campaigns and ostracising a people. The end result of what you advocate is a raise in temper and emotions. Its humanities division and clashing at stake, but you people have even gone back on the definition of humanity. .

you people? What definition of humanity? I do not know what you are talking about here.
The west had extended the hand of friendship and it still does. We allowed over 20 million to immigrate to the west. We were fools enough not to notice that we were under attack since the 80's. The episode with hostages in Iran was an isolated case we though, attack on the WTC in the 1998 was just a crazy plot by criminals we thought, but little did we know that our friendship was being repaid by a hate campaign against the stupid Kaafirs we are. Ostracising, you say? We are Najis, remember? We are filthier than pig entrails? Remember? The laws of Dhimmas as implemented by the pure muslims did not allow the Kaafirs to walk out in rain in case the Najis would wash off and dirty a muslim. So please tell your muslims the definition of humanity. We are so filthy that we cannot settle in the pure land of the Hijaz, and Muhammad himself laid that down. That is one of the complaints of OBL against us. We are filthying up the pure Hijaz.
Our humanity was demonstrated across the globe when the Kaafirs responded to the Tsunami disaster across the globe. The hated jooos of israel were the first ones to offer aid and have given one of the highest per capita aid. American armed forces personnel were putting in over time for free to help out. So tell me about how humans are the kaafirs, and how they veiw humanity.

Quote:

meanwhile do you condone ostrocising muslims or any other people for that matter because of history?

No I do not condone ostracising muslims. I do condone condemning Islam, muhammad and his rantings, the Quran. Again it is Islam that divides the world into Kaafirs and Momeens, not the Kaafirs.

Quote:

Yes, it is Islam that is the underlying cause. You can choose to call it HIslam, but it is Islam and your fine distinction is merely dissemblence for all practical purposes.

Quote:

We are trying to prevent the future genocide, but that you cannot see. Islam has been causing genocide all through its history and that seems to escape your notice. The genocide of Bengalis in 1971 by the Islamic warriors of Pakistan. What is taking place in Darfur right now, if not genocide? Dar-ul-harb and Dar-ul-Islam are not our creations. Quraan divides the world into Kaafirs and Muslims. The Golden rule only applies to other muslims according to Quran. Those rules do not apply to the Kaafirs. It is only Kaafirs who are stupid enough to say that the Golden rule is universal and should be followed by all and for all. Muslims do not. Do not take Kaafirs for friends. Smite smite and smite the Kaafirs is the refrain of Islam and not the golden rule for Kaafirs.

Quote:

Keep counting the places after the decimal and trying to make sure whether they are accurate or not. One case of catholic militants (perhaps) in Northern Island as opposed to how many deaths in Pakistan, Darfur, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Israel, kashmir, etc. Ordinary people count one, two, three, four, five, many, and many more. They do not count decimal places. If it is five time, ten times more it might well be a million times more. Try to live in the ordinary joe's world and not in the "beyond a reasonable doubt" and " statictics to the nth decimal place" etc. Common sense? Language and trust of the average idiot is far humanly reliable than all the precise mathematical legalese. Once we get there, trust and friendship is long gone and then the issue is who is going to lose their shirt or more
appropriately for this disscussion, 'who is going to lose their head'.

Quote:

Are you referring to Andulus? Yes the only example where Islamic Jihad was stopped and reversed. Perhaps that is something the Kaafirs should study more. Perhaps that might be the only way to reverse the Jihad of Islam. You are the hypocrite. Even if you take Andalus into account, what kind of numbers are you talking about? The muslims were allowed to emmigrate for a long time before the Catholic Church forced the muslim to convert in spain. But compare that to what transpired in Armenian Christians, Pakistani Hindus, Kashmiri pandits, Bangali Hindus, in recent history, and the Central asian Buddhists, Persian Zorastrians, Middle Eastern Christians, Arabic pagans and christians, and jews, and your comparison stands out for what it is: pure and simple hypocritical attempt to whitewash the monumental crimes against the Kaafirs by Islam through out its history.

Quote:

Some? Jizzya was applied by all muslim empires. It was applied by the arabs, by the iranians, by the mughals, by the far eastern indonesian muslims. As I said you can read the quran which ever way you want, That is not the concern of the Kaafirs. We look at the historical record and the actions of the present day muslims. "you wiped out the Aztec and Inca populations"? Who is this you? The spanish catholics who did that are not threatening the world with annhilation so they can get to heaven to get their reward for "Shaheed". The fact that you cannot understand the difference between the Jihad being propounded by the Hislamicist and the spanish catholics merely tells how far apart is our view of the world.

"Golden Rule" is not a recipe for suicide and that is what you seem to be advocating to the Kaafirs.

Quote:

All I can express are my views. I have read Edips site and frankly I consider it mostly silly. I assume "Ali Sina's arguments are flawed" is not your opinion but Allah's own truth? The readers can decide for themselves as long as they live in a Shareeah free country where freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of expression, and freedom to criticise and question any religion is allowed. That is more than what I can say about any muslim country where the laws of blasphemy do not allow anyone to even raise a question about Quran.
_________________
Ali Sina: "The truth is out there for those who want to see it. It is beyond doubt."

Rg Veda: "He who surveys it in the highest heaven; He surely knows - or maybe He does not!"

Last edited by doubtless on Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:13 pm; edited 2 times in total

Humanist

Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 8520
Location: Kentucky, USA

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:54 pm Post subject:

doubtless wrote:

Quote:

meanwhile do you condone ostrocising muslims or any other people for that matter because of history?

No I do not condone ostracising muslims. I do condone condemning Islam, muhammad and his rantings, the Quran. Again it is Islam that divides the world into Kaafirs and Momeens, not the Kaafirs.

I am not sure that I do not support ostracizing Muslims. What more has to be done to make it clear that Muslims do not want to be friends with Infidels. How many infidels must be brutally killed before infidels start to ostracize Muslims?

If 99.999% of Muslims were our friends and treated us like other faiths treat other faiths it would be different. We would look at the Muslims that do terror as criminals. However, we keep hearing from Shiite and Sunni religious leaders that the Infidel is the enemy and should never be befriended or helped. Those same religious leaders keep justifying murder as long as it is an Infidel being killed. The Muslim charities are for Muslims only while the infidel charities are for any person in need regardless of their religion. Even in the West the Muslim religious leaders ratchet up the hate in their sermons to the point that “Western” Muslims go out and kill guys like Theo Van Gogh. (All for the reason of making a true movie on the Islamic treatment of women. If it has been a big lie it would have been different but to kill a man because he told the truth is the biggest crime I can imagine. Islam wants to cover up it’s true evil.)

So my question back to both of you is: Why should the infidel not ostracize Muslims? Please give me one good reason and I will consider something other.

Until the Muslims give the Infidel a reason not to ostracize them why should we not ostracize Muslims?
_________________
"Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell

Ash Shuura

Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 67

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:52 pm Post subject:

Student1 wrote:

If you are one of those who believe that you are off to the great whorehouse in the sky after you die, then you aren't that qualified to judge us about rationality.

Dear Student1,

I don't believe we have interacted before, hence logically speaking I couldn't have come to the conclusion whether my argument had merit for you. More to the point, you are not a pack you are individuals. Hence, you missed my point with due respect.

Please take my responses per post, per poster, and check what in particular I am referring to, they're not a broad brush. For example your above point does not mean you do not know how to establish the positions before engaging in the debate, it may be tongue in cheek. Hence, I can't assume that you are irrational.

regards

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