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Samurai_Jack
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Posts: 2782
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 Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:33 am Post subject: |
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LOL !!! I'm really enjoying this.
My dear Diotima, a truly evil person is one who lives not in the light of God, not one who behaves in the manner that you disprove.
BTW evil in religion and evil used in the real world have different connotations and meaning.
In the real world, when a person behaves in a way that most of us cannot agree upon, we say it's 'evil' However, in religion, evil is one who does not live within the 'light of God' not one who behaves in a way you disprove of.
_________________
India is a geographical term. It is no more a united nation than the Equator.
Winston Churchill...Evolutionary fairy tales for grown ups http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/articles_debates/evolutiondefinition.htm |
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diotima64
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 16559
Location: middleearth
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| Samurai_Jack wrote: |
LOL !!! I'm really enjoying this.
My dear Diotima, a truly evil person is one who lives not in the light of God, not one who behaves in the manner that you disprove.
BTW evil in religion and evil used in the real world have different connotations and meaning.
In the real world, when a person behaves in a way that most of us cannot agree upon, we say it's 'evil' However, in religion, evil is one who does not live within the 'light of God' not one who behaves in a way you disprove of. |
 ... YOU of all people trying your ignorant best to explain philosophical terms to me?
Don´t talk to me as if I was a child, ignoramus. Nothing you said detracts an iota from my argument, since it doesn´t matter, how exactly evil is defined, as long as it is NOT GOOD. Just insert "not in the light of God" for evil, and THEN ask yourself whether "in a world devoid of the-light of God" it would be best to be " the one living LEAST in the light of God". Because that´s what your original claim was - duh! 
And stop calling me " My dear Diotima". It doesn´t befit YOU to patronise me. Well - keep on trying if you have to...
_________________
Ahmed the wife-beating bahgat moslem said:
"I said I will beat MY ILL CONDUCT WIFE if she insists on her ill conduct" |
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Samurai_Jack
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Posts: 2782
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| katlike wrote: |
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| Some things between a husband and wife should remain private but taking a piece of paper from a male stranger is not a private matter in a marriage. The husband has every right to ask about it and vica versa. |
Your right. Some things should remain private, and yes the husband and wife have every right to ask, but they do not have the right to see. It's a matter of privacy. If people choose to excersise their right to privacy, they should not automatically be condemned for it. Do you understand that? |
I really hope this does not happen to you some day. sad, really sad.
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| Tommorow your husband takes a piece of paper from a female stranger and you ask what is that all about and he refuses to give you an answer, will you tell yourself that is a 'private matter' and none of your business ? |
No, I would tell myself that I have to turn up my charms and get him to tell me the answer. He would, for some reason he finds me totally irrestible!  |
I'm sorry but I find that repulsive. Yuck ! I have to 'kiss up' to find out if my partner is being faithful.
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| Just because Arab women have not much privacy, does not give her the right to keep the telephone number of a male stranger 'private' from her husband. This is like saying, Arab men are allowed to marry four, so it's ok for Arab women to have four lovers. |
Not much privacy? According to you they should have NO privacy. I would not comdem an Arab woman for having 4 lovers, especially if her husband had another 3 wives. Is is exactly like saying that. I would condem myself for cheating on my husband though, if he's going to remain faithful to me, I have to remain faithful to him, that is how lovers act. |
But that is what you were advocating earlier. Earlier, you said that it's ok for the woman in the story to keep this paper private since Arab women are not allowed privacy. This is hypocrisy. One wrong does not make another wrong right.
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| For Gods sake Katlike, you're one of the few 'sane' ones at FFI ! I never expected such behaviour from you. Please, for Gods sake, get rid of this sickening moral relativity. It will do you no good. My God, if people like you are a fair representation of western people, it is better to be a Muslim. |
Well thanks, but I fail to see any moral relativity on my part, but I see how your immersed in it. So you think I am sane, but you'd rather be a muslim than have my standards? Sorry, but I am thinking you have disappointed me more than I have you. |
If I had to choose between your standard and muslim standards, i will follow Muslim standards. I am a male so Muslims standards gives me more. Your standards and Muslim standards are 2 sides of coin, both extreme.
I'm sorry, but recieving piece of paper from a male stranger is NO private matter for me in a marriage. For you it is.
| Quote: |
| Maybe now I see why most Muslims don't leave Islam. perhaps we may have solved a problem here. |
Stop wanting the same basic rights for all adults?[/quote]
Katlike,
Your idea of 'basic rights' to me is like saying a criminal should have the right to steal.
I think it is pointless we continue. We are going to create another 10 pages of non stop arguing.
I believe you do not see my way or vice versa because we share different values. I know western values, I have lived in the US for a couple of years. I now live in a western country and my landlady everyday, walks naked in front of me to the bathroom. For her, it's ok, but not in the eastern world.
I'm sorry when I say this but to me, your values are decadent and immoral. I will never submit to them. I will never allow my wife to keep a piece of papaer as a 'private matter'. Sorry, that is not marriage for me. If that is what a wife constitutes, then it is better to marry a hooker, at least she can make some money for you on her philandering ways. LOL !!!!! 
Most of my western friends refuse to get into a marriage which is why a new legal term ie 'partner' is now very common in the west. I know now why they refuse to get into a marriage. That is because they have no faith in the marriage institution. The marriage institution has been made into a mockery in the west.
Anyway, that is my opinion.
_________________
India is a geographical term. It is no more a united nation than the Equator.
Winston Churchill...Evolutionary fairy tales for grown ups http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/articles_debates/evolutiondefinition.htm |
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Samurai_Jack
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Posts: 2782
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| diotima64 wrote: |
| Samurai_Jack wrote: |
LOL !!! I'm really enjoying this.
My dear Diotima, a truly evil person is one who lives not in the light of God, not one who behaves in the manner that you disprove.
BTW evil in religion and evil used in the real world have different connotations and meaning.
In the real world, when a person behaves in a way that most of us cannot agree upon, we say it's 'evil' However, in religion, evil is one who does not live within the 'light of God' not one who behaves in a way you disprove of. |
... YOU of all people trying your ignorant best to explain philosophical terms to me?
Don´t talk to me as if I was a child, ignoramus. Nothing you said detracts an iota from my argument, since it doesn´t matter, how exactly evil is defined, as long as it is NOT GOOD. Just insert "not in the light of God" for evil, and THEN ask yourself whether "in a world devoid of the-light of God" it would be best to be " the one living LEAST in the light of God". Because that´s what your original claim was - duh!
And stop calling me " My dear Diotima". It doesn´t befit YOU to patronise me. Well - keep on trying if you have to... |
LOL !!!!
I find your 'hissy fit' hilarious !!! LOL !!!!
_________________
India is a geographical term. It is no more a united nation than the Equator.
Winston Churchill...Evolutionary fairy tales for grown ups http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/articles_debates/evolutiondefinition.htm |
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diotima64
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 16559
Location: middleearth
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:55 am Post subject: |
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hissy fit? you haven´t seen me have one - I am there with the best of the punjabis, if I want to be.
As you have obviously run out of arguments since you are reduced to "You look so cute when you are angry, hon", we´re through with this debate. Am off to bed.
_________________
Ahmed the wife-beating bahgat moslem said:
"I said I will beat MY ILL CONDUCT WIFE if she insists on her ill conduct" |
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Samurai_Jack
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Posts: 2782
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| diotima64 wrote: |
hissy fit? you haven´t seen me have one - I am there with the best of the punjabis, if I want to be.
As you have obviously run out of arguments since you are reduced to "You look so cute when you are angry, hon", we´re through with this debate. Am off to bed. |
One last word, for me when it comes to any religious matter, there is no debate. You cannot 'debate' spirituality. either you know it or you don't.
Well, you are cute.....
_________________
India is a geographical term. It is no more a united nation than the Equator.
Winston Churchill...Evolutionary fairy tales for grown ups http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/articles_debates/evolutiondefinition.htm |
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Realist
Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 3623
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| IntellectualWarfare12 wrote: |
| Realist wrote: |
| Ali Sina wrote: |
| Realist wrote: |
The mans decision and actions are SOLELY based on the Misogynistic, Illogical, Barbaric Islamo/Saudi culture and by supporting HIM you by default support that too. You cannot separate one from the other. |
The only thing you don't seem to possess Realist is a grasp of reality.
How in the hell wanting to divorce one's cheating wife can be interpreted as approving the misogynistic laws of SA? This is a blatant non sequitur fallacy. Suppose you find your wife cheating and assuming that there is a shred of decency left in you, you decide to divorce her. Does that mean that you are supporting the misogynistic laws of SA? What nonsense is this?
Since I doubt cheating derives the nail and as I suspect you belong to the same school of thought that ex-jinni belongs, let us say you find out that your wife is plotting to kill you and you decide to divorce her. Does this mean that you are a backward misogynist?
This is what happens when people shut down their brains and write all sorts of nonsense without thinking. |
Ali a non thinking response is EXACTLY what I attribute to YOU. You base ALL your EVIDENCE on her being a cheat, adultress and lots of other NASTY UNJUSTIFIED words you called this woman SOLELY on the MAN's word without any OTHER piece of evidence to justify that leap to judgement. A phone number in your handbag is NOT evidence of adultery by any stretch of the immagination. That is what call unthinking or rather CONVOLUTED thinking.
Now on the other hand I, and many many other people on here no doubt because we don't share the same CULTURAL upbringing as you, need MORE evidence before we declare GUILT. We are quite prepared to accept that this woman MIGHT be a cheat she MIGHT be an adultress however the UNCORROBORATED word of a BIASED man coupled with the complete ABSENCE of any other evidence apart from a piece of paper with a phone number on it prevents a RATIONAL mind from jumping to such an ILLOGICAL conclusion. In your response you ask what would I do if I found out my wife was plotting to kill me well first I would say that the mere fact that she has a piece of paper in her handbag with a phone number on it is NO EVIDENCE AT ALL of a death plot and anyone who extrapolates such a thing to such a RIDICULOUS conclusion has problems himself. Now maybe just MAYBE this woman has a HISTORY of adultery and maybe just MAYBE my wife had tried to kill me previously THEN and ONLY then would I be justified in making such a conclusion however the story we are being asked to consider has no EVIDENCE or statement that this is the case so my original take on the situation must stand based on what has been presented for us to consider. This AUTOMATIC unjustified CONDEMNATION of the woman is what happens when people make KNEEJERK culturally conditioned responses without thinking the situation through LOGICALLY and considering the weight and acceptability of the EVIDENCE presented in the CONCLUSIONS they jump to. There is that REAL enough for you I am also very disappointed that you feel the need to insult people who disagree with your entrenched mindset. I thought you were a bigger man than that. |
You are so stupid Realist that it isn't even funny. You were never a Muslim. You are not an Arab. You have absolutely no idea as to the customs and traditions that these people have.
Arab women are not like other women. They do not go flirting around with random guys, and they dont even glance at another man if they are married. When this woman took the number of that man, then she obviously was planning to cheat on him, why do you think she refused to hand over to sheet of paper?
I applaud the man who divorced her. |
Absolute total Red Herring and Tu Quoque this NOTHING to do with the nationality of either the woman or the man the question is does a piece of paper with some numbers on it PROVE BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT that the recipient is an Adultress, a Whore and a Cheat and JUSTIFY a man taking the drastic action to both divorce his wife and HUMILIATE both her AND his children in public . Answer quite clearly is NO IT DOES NOT.
Second question does the act of receiving a piece of paper trigger CULTURALLY BRAINWASHED Misogynistic MCP's in to fits of UNJUSTIFIED anger and OUTRAGEOUS accusations quite clearly YES IT DOES.
_________________
Honour and Pride have no place in Islam. XXX in a thread on Honour Killing.
Islam is a BUFFET you just select which bits you like and dismiss the rest. Ahmed Bahgat
Whats the drink called that allah says BEES make? Berber says 'I dont know' |
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humandecency
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 18818
Location: This side of the black stump.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Samurai_Jack wrote: |
| I hope I have made myself clear. |
Clearly transparent.
sucking up to Ali Sina perhaps? 
And clearly confused.
| Samurai_Jack wrote: |
| humandecency wrote: |
| So you can speak for yourself, but not for this mysterious "We" when speaking of fools. |
About 10 pages back, we were bunched together. |
Well it wasn't me, and so you don't have a right to accuse me.
The last thing I would do is to equate your abilities with those of Ali Sina.
Just by the word "We" doesn't do it.
| Samurai_Jack wrote: |
First off, let me correct you, we are not 'judging' the news report, we are judging the womans conduct and behaviour using the news report exactly the same way we judge Muhammads character using the Hadiths and Quran.
You are trying to separate the 2 but that makes you a hypocrit, but you don't see it. You believe Muslims believe in the Hadiths and Quran, so it is ok to attack Muhammads character but
not so for the woman in the story. This is double standards. |
First of all, you don't seem to know the meaning of "hypocrite" even if I were guilty of inconsistency.
But there is a very good reason to treat the two differently. Because we are not assuming the Hadiths to be fact. You have admitted as much, that the factuality in the Hadiths is irrelevant.
Finally, the accounts in the Hadiths leave no room for doubt what Muhammad did. It spells out quite clearly the assassinations, and his headchopping of the Qurayza tribe. There is no conjecture of any type. No mere inuendo or or suggestion. The whole gory stuff is clearly spelt out.
You can see the Hadiths as a confession, written by Muslims and taken as fact by the vast majority of them. Or are you one of those Muslims who claim that the Hadiths are "old jewish wives' tales"?
But we don't regard a newspaper as being a hypothetical excercise - rather we have the expectation that a newspaper contains fact, and we attach great importance to our newspapers giving us the facts, though we may still do so with a reserve of skepticism.
A newspaper is not a holy scripture BTW.
While we may say that the factualness of the Hadiths don't matter, a newspaper of pure fantasy would be totally useless except as material for theoretical debates.
And based on the available information in the article, assuming it all to be true, there is just not enough information to make any judgement.
The only facts given by the newspaper are :
1. that the man made the public announcement, and
2. what the man told us - namely that he caught his wife receiving and possessing a piece of paper with a phone number, that he forcibly retrieved from her possession.
This is something to raise suspicion that something is going on, but as to what, is only open to speculation.
Unlike the Hadith, we don't have the woman saying that she did indeed have an intention to have a bonk with a stranger, but claiming that as this stranger was a holy prophet it was therefore the most highly moral thing to do. We must love a holy prophet more than our own family after all.
| SJ wrote: |
Remember, a Muslim does not leave Islam just because you proved to him his prophet is not a prophet. He also leaves it because he is assuming the world outside of Islam is more moral and thus he is trying to do the right thing.......
...... This is not enough for someone to leave his religion, I assure you.
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Off which mountain did Moses bring these "facts cast in stone" from?
I remind you of your words "anyone can write anything".
What I remember, is that Muhammad being the Seal of all Prophets is the core part of Islam. If a Muslim no longer believed this, he would no longer be a Muslim, and would be sure to start doubting everything else about it.
| SJ wrote: |
| To be honest with you, if some of the posters here were a fair representation of the world outside of Islam, I would convert and become a Muslim overnight. In an evil world, it is better to be the most evil one. |
If you are honest to yourself, you would admit this is a stupid reason to convert to Islam. But if you are capable of saying this, I fear you may have already done so.
| Samurai_Jack wrote: |
| I repeat, appeal to the heart is a million times better then appeal to the mind. |
I will bear this in mind to appeal to your heart, as appealing to your mind has got me nowhere.
Only now you tell me!
Certainly going by all your past performance, calling people morons and fools is a sort of appeal to the heart, if in an inflammatory way.
Now it is here, where your word hypocrite may be employed in its correct meaning.
| Samurai_Jack, "appealing to the heart" wrote: |
Talk is cheap.
XXX
You're a liar and a cheat. The others may be fools but I see you for who you are, a wolve among sheeps. It will not be long before we kick your behind back to your Islamic hell hole. Then, you will truly cry, bitterly. No Mc Donalds, movies, libraries, dating, video games, a good job, pay, high standard of living.....all you will get is the local Mullah telling how to be even more Islamic then you already are, guns, violence, suicide bombings, killings, over population, poverty.... Then you can crow Allah hoo akhbar all day long.
The problem with you Muslims is you think it's too remote a chance that you will get your ass kicked. You fail to see that this 'peace loving' kafirs can turn very violent overnight. In 2nd world war, all non Americans were put in concentration camps in the US and deported. This can very well happen to you.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1046119#1046119
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That's right, as you say and at the same time confirm, talk is cheap.
_________________
The Swordy Whahabian flag bears the sword, islamic symbol of peace.
>>paradoxtoparadise]<<
>>> http://www.geocities.com/humandecency/first <<<
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ex-jinni
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 794
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Soldiers and brave warriors , do not concede ground . It is the burden of the enemy to produce papers and phone numbers and if the enemy can’t , then the enemy must back off or else it faces war with all its truth. I speak to you of the moment of our triumph of our victory. I speak to you of the sweet smell of the blood of enemy odorizing the sand . I speak to you of the of the gentle touch of scorched metal and burning wood of the enemy dens .
we do not believe the story . since when did reporters ever get it right . they speak of cashiers With microphone . cashiers do not have microphones . cashers have cash registers. What do they mean he got on the microphone and announced divorcing the woman. what is this ? a theatre or a store ? this is nonsense .
The enemy speak of a backward culture and a culture that assumes the worst of the woman. I ask you brave warriors , isn’t the reporter a member of that culture ? therefore we do not accept the truth of his reporting. He is one of them .
Arab media resorts to outright lying and altering the facts when reporting about Israel and America. . when questioned about it they answer that the western media is bias . they lambaste Fox TV. They make it sound as if its between them and western media . its not .its between legitimate reporting and propaganda . Arab media are mouth pieces for their regimes and are proponents of the backward culture of Islam
the reputation and welfare of a woman simply can not be staked on a news item by that knd of twisted and false media reporting
The enemy lectured you about Arabic culture in a devilish attempt to exploit your lack of knowledge about that culture . the enemy stops at nothing .now is the time to confront the enemy about that ..
you gonna love this .lol
The following is a link to al Riyadh , the news paper responsible for the news item. Below the article are the commentaries by Saudis themselves ..
http://www.alriyadh.com/2007/12/31/article305281.html?comment=all#21
Listen, the husband got the lion share of insults . they called him unmanly,. They called him dishonorable, rash , insolent , mentally disturbed in need of psychiatric treatment .idiot, shameless . one even questioned why would a woman do that if it was not because she was forced to look happiness outside the marriage
Hey Kate you gonna love this one .responded number 40 said the behavior of the husband is insane .lol. you were right I'm not insane . they are insane .
These people didn’t wanna hear about the woman being this or that . their focus and concern was the behavior of the husband which they found to be so disgraceful as to warrant their attention and merit their insults .
Few of the responses are noticeable because they provide an explanation of what actually have happened based on their knowledge of the life style there as Saudis . hahahaha . Understand , these are Saudis who lived there all their lives and know the place better than all of you . what they said aught to punch a very big in the articulations of those pretenders on here who claimed to know the life there .but they have provided an explanation based on precedents of similar incidents . check respondent number 46 . in that response lies the key to unlocking the mystery .
Don’t worry we will win this action. COMPANY MARCH . |
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humandecency
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 18818
Location: This side of the black stump.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Samurai_Jack wrote: |
| I repeat, appeal to the heart is a million times better then appeal to the mind. |
This has been tried before. (full details two posts up)
The best appeal to the heart would be to put head on ground and butt in the air.
_________________
The Swordy Whahabian flag bears the sword, islamic symbol of peace.
>>paradoxtoparadise]<<
>>> http://www.geocities.com/humandecency/first <<<
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ex-jinni
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 794
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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Translation of response number 46 :
Okay , she made a mistake , you leave your kids in the street and leave ?
And with sharia legislation no going back on ?
I think there is hastiness here ( he means jumping into conclusions prematurely)
I remember a guy whose wife traveled from Jeddah to Riyadh and during getting on the plane she was bothered and harassed by one of the passengers who wouldn’t stop insisting on her taking his phone number. She finally took the number to shut him up and finish the journey in peace .another guy saw her take the number and followed her to her husband at the arrivals hall of the airport in Riyadh and found out who is the guardian of that woman and told him of what happened –ice her taking the phone number . This Husband who the information given to him has been completed , worries took over his mind all the way from the airport to the house .upon arrival and while the wife was unpacking her carry on bag she took out the number of the guy who harassed her on the plane which was the thing that made her to remember to take it out and gave it to her husband who when that happened it was as if he was washed with cold water . the wife said to the husband to take the number and talk to the owner of the number who harassed her on the plane .
If the husband –in this news item – had taken it easy and waited to this how things unfold the truth might have come out . Do not believe all that you se or half of what you hear ( that’s a comment by the narrator to the readers )
Now you might wonder why do saudi women there behave like that . its because when a woman is rapped there its automatically assumed that she caused the rape . only when she defends her self to the death do they believe she had nothing to do with it . a woman there worries not about being bothered or harassed. She knows that people will interpret the harassment as something she caused and invited upon herself .
this is not a culture thing. this was the way it used to be even here in the west . the cops automatically concluded the woman had something to do with it . this is between backwardess and progress .
those who called the woman a whore , you have called a mother a whore . if i were you i GO THROW MYSELF OFF A CLIFF . how can you live with yourself ? you are so corrupt. |
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katlike
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 4015
Location: If I told you, it would be a lame game of hide and seek.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:02 am Post subject: |
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SJ:
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| I'm sorry when I say this but to me, your values are decadent and immoral. I will never submit to them. |
Why because I would never cheat on my husband, nor would he treat me that way? We value our marriage. What is so decadent and immoral about that? Please explain.
Fine don't submit to committing yourself to one person and one person alone. It is a big step and not for the faint of heart. This is the part you are unable to understand...I take marriage seriously, and will not let some assumption, no matter how true, destroy my marriage. Do you even understand that it would take more than my assuming my husband was cheating for me to throw in the towel? Why do you call my values decandent and immoral? I just do not understand it.
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| I'm sorry but I find that repulsive. Yuck ! I have to 'kiss up' to find out if my partner is being faithful. |
Ahh but see, your assuming your partner is a cheater, I would never assume that of my husband. If he didn't want to tell me, he has his reasons, cheating would not be at the top of the list, I am kissing up to find out his secrets. Funny how your thoughts automatically go to infedility. Mine don't.
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| But that is what you were advocating earlier. Earlier, you said that it's ok for the woman in the story to keep this paper private since Arab women are not allowed privacy. This is hypocrisy. One wrong does not make another wrong right. |
Not hypocrisy on my part. Reread what I have written. Marriage is not about giving up one's privacy, women are not automatically cheaters, nor are men. Your the one claiming that, not me. I just said, adults have a right to privacy that marriage does not nullify. Hypocrisy is allowing men the right to privacy but not women. The right to privacy does not include the right to decieve, why are you confusing the two?
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| Your idea of 'basic rights' to me is like saying a criminal should have the right to steal. |
How so?
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| I believe you do not see my way or vice versa because we share different values. I know western values, I have lived in the US for a couple of years. I now live in a western country and my landlady everyday, walks naked in front of me to the bathroom. For her, it's ok, but not in the eastern world. |
I agree, I value marriage. It seems you have no idea what it means to trust someone who is worthy of your trust. To me that is very sad. Your ideas seem warped to me, what has caused you to think no one is worthy of your trust?
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| If that is what a wife constitutes, then it is better to marry a hooker, at least she can make some money for you on her philandering ways. LOL !!!!! |
Know this, at least my husband knows, without any doubt at all, I am faithful to him by choice, because I choose to love him and remain faithful. He knows it is because he is a good, decent man who loves me. Your wife will only be faithful to you cause she is afraid of the cultural repercussions. You'll never know if she is faithful because she loves you or if it's simply selfishness on her part, she remains faithful, not because of you, but what would happen to her if she didn't. No wonder you'll always be suspicious of her and her actions. Very sad really, neither one of you will ever be able to really trust the other. What kind of marriage can you hope to have?
_________________
[/islam].
 FYI~ It takes glass one million years to decompose, which means it never wears out and can be recycled an infinite amount of times. |
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Samurai_Jack
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Posts: 2782
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| katlike wrote: |
SJ:
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| I'm sorry when I say this but to me, your values are decadent and immoral. I will never submit to them. |
Why because I would never cheat on my husband, nor would he treat me that way? We value our marriage. What is so decadent and immoral about that? Please explain. |
Hi Katlike,
I'm really tired of this thread so this may be my last response. Perhaps you can start a new thread in the Lounge comparing Western and Eastern values.
I find your values decadent and immoral because you have to 'kiss up' to ask your husband about a piece of paper with a number given by a stranger. I'm sorry, but I find that repulsive. In the East, relationship are open, one partner can ask a direct question to the other. I prefer that.
Also, there is no such thing as a 'private matter' between 2 married people in East. Every information is 'public' to the other. This is what I grew up to this is what I will always remain to. I find you saying that recieving a telephone number from a male stranger 'private' from her hubby gross.
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| Fine don't submit to committing yourself to one person and one person alone. It is a big step and not for the faint of heart. This is the part you are unable to understand...I take marriage seriously, and will not let some assumption, no matter how true, destroy my marriage. Do you even understand that it would take more than my assuming my husband was cheating for me to throw in the towel? Why do you call my values decandent and immoral? I just do not understand it. |
Look above for answer
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| I'm sorry but I find that repulsive. Yuck ! I have to 'kiss up' to find out if my partner is being faithful. |
Ahh but see, your assuming your partner is a cheater, I would never assume that of my husband. If he didn't want to tell me, he has his reasons, cheating would not be at the top of the list, I am kissing up to find out his secrets. Funny how your thoughts automatically go to infedility. Mine don't. |
What makes you believe by asking such questions equates to believing she's cheating ? Why do you assume the negative ? This is perverse. A relationship should be honest and open. If one partner has doubts, she/he should have the right ask outright and not 'play games' to get that information.
When you ask your boss for your paycheck, is it because you suspect he is cheating you on your wages ?
When you ask your business partner for receipts, is it because you assume he is cheating you in profits ?
When you ask your children where have they been the whole day, is it because you assume they have been up to no good ?
Why do you assume the negative so fast ? Why can it be not for clearing a doubt or just for the fact of knowing ?
Your relationship with your husband is not 'open'. You lack the freedom to ask a direct question, so you have to play games. I pity you.
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| But that is what you were advocating earlier. Earlier, you said that it's ok for the woman in the story to keep this paper private since Arab women are not allowed privacy. This is hypocrisy. One wrong does not make another wrong right. |
Not hypocrisy on my part. Reread what I have written. Marriage is not about giving up one's privacy, women are not automatically cheaters, nor are men. Your the one claiming that, not me. I just said, adults have a right to privacy that marriage does not nullify. Hypocrisy is allowing men the right to privacy but not women. The right to privacy does not include the right to decieve, why are you confusing the two? |
This is where we disagree. I'm sorry but I do not believe in your culture and norms nor will I ever do. You can keep your 'private matters with your husband, it is of no concern to me. But my relationship with my wife will be totally open.
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| Your idea of 'basic rights' to me is like saying a criminal should have the right to steal. |
How so? |
Recieving a piece of paper from a male stranger is not a 'private matter' in a marriage, based on eastern standards.
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| I believe you do not see my way or vice versa because we share different values. I know western values, I have lived in the US for a couple of years. I now live in a western country and my landlady everyday, walks naked in front of me to the bathroom. For her, it's ok, but not in the eastern world. |
I agree, I value marriage. It seems you have no idea what it means to trust someone who is worthy of your trust. To me that is very sad. Your ideas seem warped to me, what has caused you to think no one is worthy of your trust? |
You are simply too brainwashed. You assume that asking a direct question equates to 'distrust'. It's amazing how western mind think, you immideatly assume the negative and don't entertain the positive. I pity you. Unlike you, I have an open relationship, I can ask any question to my wife and vice versa, whereas you have to play games.
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| If that is what a wife constitutes, then it is better to marry a hooker, at least she can make some money for you on her philandering ways. LOL !!!!! |
Know this, at least my husband knows I am faithful only because I love him because he is a good, decent man who loves me. Your wife will only be faithful to you cause she is afraid of the cultural repercussions. No wonder you'll always be suspicious of her and her actions. Very sad really, neither one of you will ever be able to really trust the other. |
My wife will be faithful to me because she was raised in an environment that taught her to be honest and truthfull in all relationships. She will have no doubts because she can ask me whatever she wants, thus installing confidence in our relationship.
You on the other hand live in constant doubt and fear. Doubt, "what was that piece of paper about ?" Fear "Better make sure the sex is good tonight, don't want him to leave me for a better lay". You can tell yourself a million times "I trust him, that paper means nothing" but that doubt will be the "but i wonder what is it ?" You can never run away from this. You can lie to the whole world, but you can never lie to yourself.
This is why western women spend so much of their time dieting, looking good, using all kinds sex toys, to keep their man happy. We in the east, don't have to resort to such tactics. We accept each other for who they are.
When I was in the US, I had several opportunities to have a relationship and possibly marriage with an American woman. But my gut instinct told me to better find one from back home. After reading your posts, I am glad I did not marry a western woman.
You belittle the east, claiming our spouses live in fear, but yet with all your freedoms, you have the highest divorce rates in the world. Your families are collapsing, the marriage institution is a joke. Which is why nobody wants to get married anymore, and live in partners are more common these days. You need to open your eyes, look around you, see how many of your friends are divorced or not able to find a husband and ask why is this so common. I saw this with my own eyes.
This is my last post on this thread.
_________________
India is a geographical term. It is no more a united nation than the Equator.
Winston Churchill...Evolutionary fairy tales for grown ups http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/articles_debates/evolutiondefinition.htm |
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katlike
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 4015
Location: If I told you, it would be a lame game of hide and seek.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| This is my last post on this thread. |
That would be wise of you.
_________________
[/islam].
FYI~ It takes glass one million years to decompose, which means it never wears out and can be recycled an infinite amount of times.
Last edited by katlike on Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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whiteknight
Joined: 13 May 2007
Posts: 278
Location: Dar al-Harb
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:08 am Post subject: |
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I would like to know how much he paid the man to pass the note to his wife. It all looks a little too neat to me. It puts a new meaning on marriage not being worth the paperwork!
What an arrogant swine! No thought for his children then?
whiteknight  |
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