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TheReligionOfPieces
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 459
Location: The Far West
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 Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| Adultery is immoral even if between consenting adults. It is immoral because it violates the sacredness of the family ties and family is the foundation of human society. |
Yes but that is simply a matter of opinion. I consider it immoral too but not in the same way. I consider it a very degrading and backstabbing thing you did to your spouse. This is all a matter of opinion, not fact. |
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Sanitarium
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 6891
Location: where my time is better spent.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| Ali Sina wrote: |
You are engaging in tu quoque fallacy. |
Come on Ali please don't be hypocritical. YOU already engaged in Tu Quoque! This thread was started to show idiocies of "quick divorces" in Islam and the stupidity that occurs because of it (hot-headedness and no concern for any children involved).
YOU are the one who started out on your Tu Quoque "Look at Western society!"
-Sani
EDIT: I clarified the point of this thread here
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Last edited by Sanitarium on Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:33 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Ali Sina
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 4607
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| peoshi wrote: |
| Ali Sina wrote: |
| all she had to do was ask for divorce. |
And what if he said no? |
Well, she got her divorce. So why are you so concerned?
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Don't be a follower, but a prophet unto your own. |
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TheReligionOfPieces
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 459
Location: The Far West
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Ali Sina wrote: |
| peoshi wrote: |
| Ali Sina wrote: |
| all she had to do was ask for divorce. |
And what if he said no? |
Well, she got her divorce. So why are you so concerned? |
I believe people are concerned not over the infidelity part but the blatant barbarity and unequal treatment of women when it comes to divorce in the cult of Islam. |
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Ali Sina
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 4607
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| TheReligionOfPieces wrote: |
I believe people are concerned not over the infidelity part but the blatant barbarity and unequal treatment of women when it comes to divorce in the cult of Islam. |
Yes the Islamic laws are barbaric when it comes to women's rights and divorce. However this example was the wrong example. There are millions of cases that could have been brought as evidence of the barbarity of Islam. This is not the one. Here the man was in his right to divorce his cheating wife.
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Don't be a follower, but a prophet unto your own. |
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Ali Sina
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 4607
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| Sanitarium wrote: |
| Ali Sina wrote: |
You are engaging in tu quoque fallacy. |
Come on Ali please don't be hypocritical. YOU already engaged in Tu Quoque! This thread was started to show idiocies of "quick divorces" in Islam and the stupidity that occurs because of it (hot-headedness and no concern for any children involved).
YOU are the one who started out on your Tu Quoque "Look at Western society!"
-Sani
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Hi Sani:
I read your PM. You misinterpret me. I do not generalize and do not think all the westerners are like this or like that. If you have read my articles for so many years, you should know that by now.
However, you brought an example to show Islam is barbaric when that example was not the right one. As a man who believes in family values I cannot sympathize with that cheating woman. I do not see her as a victim. I rather sympathize with the husband. So it is just a wrong example. There are millions of examples that would show Islamic laws of divorce are barbaric. This is not one of them.
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Don't be a follower, but a prophet unto your own. |
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peacebewithyou
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 1646
Location: India and USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: |
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Ali:
We still have to hear women side of story. May be she feared that her inlaws will pursue the stranger and kill him.
Sometimes, i do not even remember what other slips are in my pocket. May be it was a set up by her inlaws or husband to find someone else.
Does the husband has video proof of his wife cheating?
It is husband who said that his wife refused to hand over the number? Have you asked the women about it? It is the husband who claimed that he saw it? Did anyone saw it (besides men if any)? It is like MO claiming the divinity of quran/allah etc.
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Islam is the root cause of all evil not money. |
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roshan
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 3043
Location: Maya
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| MsWesterner wrote: |
purleeze anp......what a ridiculous statement to make, as is your "taught" perception that any non muslim or non believer must be automically immoral.
What "ease" islam gives him to divorce his wife and mother of his children.......and if he had any respect at all for either of them, (a) he would talk with his wife first, and (b) most certainly would not shame and humiliate his children like he did.
"lax morality" of the west Ali Sina......perhaps it depends on where you live!!!! People I know are very moral in their lives and business dealings, having respect for themselves, their spouse/partners and their children. |
| Black Trident wrote: |
| Sanitarium wrote: |
| He confronted his wife about the exchange and demanded to see the paper, which she refused. |
I'll be upset too if my wife did this to me. If the man's wife was being truthful, she wouldn't have tried hiding the paper from him.
But at least he should have tried reasoning with her before deciding on the divorce. And he could have done it in private, not through a microphone. |
| MsWesterner wrote: |
"lady" "whore"........whores are those whom prostitute themselves!!!
and did this woman ever ever get a choice to be muslim, or even married to this male???
and how on earth can infidelity be "established" by a piece of paper with a phone number on it - this is as bad as claiming a woman is not a rape victim because she doesnt have four witnesses!! She may or may not have intended to take the matter further, or may even have thrown the number out when she got home......but infidelity ESTABLISHED, I don't think so!!!
if he has so little respect for himself and his children that he would do what he did (i.e. divorce over a pa system) then there is no telling what type of muslim male he might be - and after all, women are their property, having to OBEY there commands, and males have the "rights" to use and abuse. |
Why the hell should he talk to or reason with that sick woman? That woman already decided that she was going to have sex with another man, she already accepted the young mans proposal by taking his phone number. As far as I am concerned she already betrayed her family whether the sexual act took place or not. Why would anyone want to remain with someone who betrayed him as well as their children? How could anyone remain with someone who obviously does not value them? And of course, how could one live without trust?
Also, this woman has already commited an unforgivable crime against her husband. If someone raped you, would you talk to or reason with that person? Or would you go to the police and start criminal proceedings?
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Brahma Satyam Jagan Mithya
Jivo Brahmaiva Na Aparah |
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roshan
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 3043
Location: Maya
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| katlike wrote: |
So all we need to do to defeat islam is have some guys start shoving phone numbers into the hands of whatever muslimahs they see, the muslims will go beserk and and it's like perfect birth control. So much for family values. Heck, we can start having woman shove phone numbers into little baby muslimah hands and have their parents kill them off for being baby lesbians. Don't care if she was 4, in the eleoquent words of some people in this thread, stupid b**** takes the paper, she is guilty.
Wow, this thread was an eye opener. |
Of course she is guilty. No one meets up and talks to random strangers in shopping malls, much less exchanging phone numbers. I have lived in a country chock full of shopping malls my entire life, and have never spoken to or been spoken to by any stranger at a mall.
In social situations such as parties, workplaces, classrooms and bars, it is normal to meet new people. But not in shopping malls.
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Brahma Satyam Jagan Mithya
Jivo Brahmaiva Na Aparah |
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Realist
Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 3623
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| Sanitarium wrote: |
| Ali Sina wrote: |
But I don't blame him for divorcing that b!tch. Who wants a cheating wife? (or a husband for that matter).
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My goodness! When did taking a phone number equate to cheating? Ali, what is your definition of 'cheating'?
| Ali Sina wrote: |
It is not about Islam. I am as anti Islamic as you can get and I despise the lax morality of the westerners. I find the western hedonism disgusting and repulsive. |
Oh okay, so its perfectly fine to give men the ability to dump their wives in a shopping centre because of their FEAR? What about trying to sort things out? Why didn't he talk to her about it at all? Ali, do you think there are only two extremes?
Did anyone stop to think that this woman may have known her husband and how he would have reacted and this is why she refused? We don't know how the "number" was given to her. Was it shoved in her hand? Did the other guy 'chat her up' before handing it over? We don't know! However, her husband WAS watchig her, and if she has fear of him at all, she couldn't just scrunch and dump on the floor because he would pick it up, so, if I were in this situation I would have dumped out of sight and then dumped it in the bin later (thankfully I am NOT in this awful situation).
Anyone of you ever think about that? Mr. "hawk eyes" was watching her and we don't know WHAT her intentions were. My God, I'm so angry with the idiots who agree with this despicable DESPICABLE actions.
Anyone who agrees with APPALLING behaviour like this deserves not to even HAVE a wife. Wives are not 'disposable commodities' that you can throw away with a public pronouncement or three words. This IS about Islam and anyone who says it isn't is truly an idiot. Tell me, if my husband did this in the west, would the divorce be granted (with no other actions)? NO. If he wanted me back, would I have to go whore myself to some other man to make it 'legal'? NO. Therefore his prouncement, even if only 'hot headed' has REAL implications for this woman all because of HIS insecurities.
There but by the extra "X" chromosome go I (thank the Gods)
ETA: MsWesterner: HEAR HEAR!!! ^^^^^^^
Peace out and I am done. BYE |
In Ali's case it seems you can take the man from the land of the MCP's but not the MCP'gery from the man.
_________________
Honour and Pride have no place in Islam. XXX in a thread on Honour Killing.
Islam is a BUFFET you just select which bits you like and dismiss the rest. Ahmed Bahgat
Whats the drink called that allah says BEES make? Berber says 'I dont know' |
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MsWesterner
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 11888
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: |
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regarding sex between consenting loving adults.....I can think of many instances where it is quite understandable, and no one is harmed by it.
e.g.
- in a marriage that has been arranged, is loveless, and the children are grown up and independent, and the adults have talked about it , i.e. open marriage where people choose to remain husband and wife for reasons other than sex
- in the same type of marriage where "abuse" has taken place, and due to society where people are not free to divorce, as in some islamic places
- where a muslim male has 4 wives, and marriage of one may not have been by "informed consent"....e.g. at 9 years of age, and she is a mature adult woman seeking and needing love
- where a man or woman is married to an invalid whom they still wish to take care of, but that person is unable to function as an adult human being with a normal sex life.....and I actually knew someone like that who's wife still had intellectual capacity (but not physical) and she wanted him to be looked after in the sexual sense!!!
to be loved, desire loving sex, and have normal adult sexual relationships is a biological need........and for people to term it DIRTY yet have no problems with the huge harms caused for young girls married off without informed consent and denied and deprived of love, is simply not understandable to me.
WHO is to call the above type of consensual relationships immoral and sinful????? |
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Realist
Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 3623
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| roshan wrote: |
| katlike wrote: |
So all we need to do to defeat islam is have some guys start shoving phone numbers into the hands of whatever muslimahs they see, the muslims will go beserk and and it's like perfect birth control. So much for family values. Heck, we can start having woman shove phone numbers into little baby muslimah hands and have their parents kill them off for being baby lesbians. Don't care if she was 4, in the eleoquent words of some people in this thread, stupid b**** takes the paper, she is guilty.
Wow, this thread was an eye opener. |
Of course she is guilty. No one meets up and talks to random strangers in shopping malls, much less exchanging phone numbers. I have lived in a country chock full of shopping malls my entire life, and have never spoken to or been spoken to by any stranger at a mall.
In social situations such as parties, workplaces, classrooms and bars, it is normal to meet new people. But not in shopping malls. |
How do you KNOW this guy was a 'random' stranger what proof do you have?
_________________
Honour and Pride have no place in Islam. XXX in a thread on Honour Killing.
Islam is a BUFFET you just select which bits you like and dismiss the rest. Ahmed Bahgat
Whats the drink called that allah says BEES make? Berber says 'I dont know' |
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Sanitarium
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 6891
Location: where my time is better spent.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Ali Sina wrote: |
Hi Sani:
I read your PM. You misinterpret me. I do not generalize and do not think all the westerners are like this or like that. If you have read my articles for so many years, you should know that by now.
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I am beginning to see that you say what you REALLY think in the heat of the moment. Therefore I do not know. However you addressed a long post to ME stating YOU and YOUR, therefore logically you are talking To and about me, as well as my society.
| Ali Sina wrote: |
However, you brought an example to show Islam is barbaric when that example was not the right one. As a man who believes in family values I cannot sympathize with that cheating woman. I do not see her as a victim. I rather sympathize with the husband. So it is just a wrong example. There are millions of examples that would show Islamic laws of divorce are barbaric. This is not one of them. |
Ali, I realised straight away that you identified with the man in the situation. However this was not my point. I brought the article to show:
(i)The inequality with this situation. Tell me, if the situation was reversed and the MAN was the cheater, could the women go up to the PA and announce divorce like that? Would the other woman just be considered a concubine or 'next wife'?
(ii)Okay so the guy needs witnesses...why didn't he gather some of the shoppers around and announce like that? With my ability to empathise with unfamiliar situations, I can state that he did it to fully humiliate her, and then left her at the mall with her kids and NO transport (can't drive, remember?) to fully degrade her as much as he could. To "show her who's boss" so to say.
If it were simply about divorce, EVEN if he was so angry, it could have and SHOULD have been handled a different way. Your claim that he didn't hit her in the store shows he is not violent is not correct. This is like saying because a known thief managed to walk past a jewelery store without stealing anything means he is not a thief, or just because Muhammad knew many female children, but only abused Aisha, shows that he is not a paedophile.
See the problem? He didn't have to BOTHER to hit her - he had a plan that was worse for her. THIS is my whole problem with the article as presented...as if women are not treated enough like scum of the earth he pushed her down further!
Thanks
-Sani
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MsWesterner
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 11888
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: |
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so you know do you rosha......you KNOW do you that this woman had "already decided to have sex with this male" ???
you are quite unprepared to consider anything other than what you "believe"
little wonder millions of women suffer so appallingly in this world!!!! (and so easily get called b!tch and whore from self righteous males, and even males whom can take 4 wives and divorce them at will just by saying a few words) |
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roshan
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 3043
Location: Maya
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| peacebewithyou wrote: |
Ali:
We still have to hear women side of story. May be she feared that her inlaws will pursue the stranger and kill him.
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Someone comes up to you, aggressively shoving you his phone number, and your first reaction is "oh no, my in laws might kill this guy!". Please tell me you are joking.
| Quote: |
Sometimes, i do not even remember what other slips are in my pocket. May be it was a set up by her inlaws or husband to find someone else.
Does the husband has video proof of his wife cheating?
It is husband who said that his wife refused to hand over the number? Have you asked the women about it? It is the husband who claimed that he saw it? Did anyone saw it (besides men if any)? It is like MO claiming the divinity of quran/allah etc. |
This is all conjecture. You can invent all sorts of fanciful tales to make the womans case. We can even have a competition about who can come up with the most absurd stories that could justify what the woman did.
However, our interest is purely in discussing the morality of what occured based on the facts we have at hand. We are not lawyers, policemen or judges that are going to decide whether this woman is guilty or innocent. Our only concern is discussing general ethical principles of such a situation as described in the news article.
Therefore, for the purpose of this discussion, we need to assume ceteris paribus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceteris_paribus
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Brahma Satyam Jagan Mithya
Jivo Brahmaiva Na Aparah |
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