Gulsaeed: Sina, I DARE YOU TO POST MY COMMENT ON YOUR WEBSITE
Part I
This is an email from Mr. Gulsaeed. His email was forwarded to Dr. Sina.
Mr. Gulsaeed has dared us to post his email to us. He could have done that himself in our comments section. But here it is below folks, posted verbatim, with our editor’s notes
Gulsaeed
Dear friend
Thank you for your reply to my last e-mail. Today in my e-mail I will like to show and discuss some of important point and verses of Quran, which Ali had wrongly cited in his article “Gender Apartheid and Islam”
In his term first he cite the ver. (2-228) which commonly translate by most of the translator.
“Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”(YUSUF ALI)
Do you know in what context ALLAH have given one degree of advantage to men? Read the verses from beginning its talking about divorced, after divorced women shall wait three monthly period so they can find out about their pregnancy and also during this time both husband and wife will get enough time to re-think on their decision and it might happen that they can change their mind and come together again. Men have no waiting period for remarriage because men don’t get pregnant or Mr. Ali wants men to get pregnant. Is that kind of equality you want? That’s only degree of advantage men have on women. Nowhere in the Quran ALLAH have given other advantage then this.
Editor
Now, if women have to wait 3 moths, don’t men have to bear it and wait 3 moths too. Isn’t that fair enough? It should be. The fact that women get pregnant and men don’t is no excuse here. You need to treat them equally, and this means both man and woman need to wait equal periods of time.
Gulsaeed
Second Verse he cite(2-282), and again he was stupid enough to cite one part out of context and ignore theme of the verse. This verses talking about loan transaction. And if read the whole verse its says “If two men are not available, then let there be one man and two women, all of them you satisfactorily consider competent as witnesses – so that even if the witnessing woman gets distracted (for example, by her baby), the accompanying woman may support and remind her.” The second woman will not be a witness in the court of law. She is there only to support the first woman if she gets distracted, for example, by her baby. Tardhaun from Radha = Those you are satisfied with = Of your just choice = In the context: You shall choose competent men and women as witnesses. Dhall = To get distracted = Losing focus = Attention getting diverted = Mind getting preoccupied with other thoughts = Losing direction = Straying. Zakkar from Zikr = Advise = Support = Remind = Confirm = Strengthen = Remember.
Editor
Here, Mr. Gulsaeed is flat out wrong. In fact, in Islamic countries it is a well-known fact that a man’s testimony is equal to two women’s testimony in Islam. Mr. Gulsaeed seems to imply that a man’s testimony is equal to that of a woman. This is not Islam. Let us read the verse 2:282:
002.282
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of Allah, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear Allah; For it is Good that teaches you. And Allah is well acquainted with all things. If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, let the trustee (faithfully) discharge his trust, and let him Fear his Lord conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it, – his heart is tainted with sin. And Allah knoweth all that ye do.
The above verse shows that in fact a man’t testimony is worth the testimony of two women. The expression “so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her” shows Muhammad’s bias against women. He did not trust what a woman says as much as what a man says. Mr. Gulsaeed thinks that one of the women may get distracted (by her baby for example). Hence, the other woman will remind her. One thinks that Mr. Gulsaeed thinks that caring for babies by a woman may cause some kind of a temporary memory recalls handicap. The faxct is all of us, men and women, have issues in our lives we have to worry about. It is not just caring for babies. Now, when I read the verse, it is clear that a man’s testimony is worth that of two women, period. Here is the verse in Arabic:
﴿يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ إِذَا تَدَايَنتُم بِدَيْنٍ إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى فَاكْتُبُوهُ وَلْيَكْتُب بَّيْنَكُم كَاتِبٌ بِالْعَدْلِ وَلاَ يَأْبَ كَاتِبٌ أَن يَكْتُبَ كَمَا عَلَّمَهُ اللَّهُ فَلْيَكْتُبْ وَلْيُمْلِلِ الَّذِى عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ وَلْيَتَّقِ اللَّهَ رَبَّهُ وَلاَ يَبْخَسْ مِنْهُ شَيْئاً فَإن كَانَ الَّذِى عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ سَفِيهًا أَوْ ضَعِيفًا أَوْ لاَ يَسْتَطِيعُ أَن يُمِلَّ هُوَ فَلْيُمْلِلْ وَلِيُّهُ بِالْعَدْلِ وَاسْتَشْهِدُواْ شَهِيدَيْنِ مِّن رِّجَالِكُمْ فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُونَا رَجُلَيْنِ فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَأَتَانِ مِمَّن تَرْضَوْنَ مِنَ الشُّهَدَآءِ أَن تَضِلَّ إْحْدَاهُمَا فَتُذَكِّرَ إِحْدَاهُمَا الاٍّخْرَى وَلاَ يَأْبَ الشُّهَدَآءُ إِذَا مَا دُعُواْ وَلاَ تَسْـَمُواْ أَن تَكْتُبُوهُ صَغِيرًا أَوْ كَبِيرًا إِلَى أَجَلِهِ ذَلِكُمْ أَقْسَطُ عِندَ اللَّهِ وَأَقْوَمُ لِلشَّهَـدَةِ وَأَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَرْتَابُواْ إِلاَ أَن تَكُونَ تِجَـرَةً حَاضِرَةً تُدِيرُونَهَا بَيْنَكُمْ فَلَيْسَ عَلَيْكُمْ جُنَاحٌ أَلاَّ تَكْتُبُوهَا وَأَشْهِدُواْ إِذَا تَبَايَعْتُمْ وَلاَ يُضَآرَّ كَاتِبٌ وَلاَ شَهِيدٌ وَإِن تَفْعَلُواْ فَإِنَّهُ فُسُوقٌ بِكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللَّهَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ اللَّهُ وَاللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ ﴾
The Arabic text shows that a man’s testimony is equalt to that of two women. And, again, the text shows that Muhammad did not have much trust in women’s testimony. There is one word تَضِلَّ
That shows that Muhammad thought women can be literally “Lost” with regard to memory. He, Muhammad, does not mention such a topic for man and his testimony in the above verse.
Gulsaeed
Then verse 4:11-12 “that women inherit half of their male siblings” Mr. Ali I want you to use logic and mind, sons have the responsibility to take care of the family, and daughters will be cared for by their husbands, or if unmarried, by other males in the family. Male has the fiscal responsibility of the family according to the Quran men is responsible to provide livelihood to women. In any condition women will not force to go and work unless she wants to do by her free will. Mr. Ali Preparing a will is a duty ordained in the Quran(2:180-183) it will only apply in the case when a person died without preparing his or her will. If one sees that his or her daughter needs more finical help then male sibling one can will in favor to her according to the one need. And if you see verses (2-180) It is prescribed when death approaches any of you, if he leaves any goods, that he makes a bequest to parents and next of kin According to reasonable usage; this is due from the God-fearing. (YUSUF ALI) MAKE SENSE TO YOU OR NOT?????
Editor
Why should a man the sole financial responsibility to provide for his family? The view that Mr. Gulsaeed is pushing for is the Islamic view. But why do we have to accept it. It is a view that came to us from some criminal of 6th century Arabia. Are we supposed to rubber-stamp it? In our age, families have different forms and shapes. All members of the family contribute to the economic side of things. Why do we have to have strict rules to start with. Muhammad had a world view where men ruled and women obeyed. The thought of not leaving equal amounts of inheritance to all my children, males and females, is appaling to me. This is one of the reasons why I believe Islam is evil in practice.
Gulsaeed
Next is (4-3) that a man can marry two or three or four women, this verse is most misunderstood among non-Muslims and even Muslim. And again as usual Mr. Ali had cite only one part.
If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or that which your right hands possess. That will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice. (YUSUF ALI), you see how Quran explaining itself. as may happen in times of war and political turbulence, the government shall announce a state of Emergency, then, in order to accommodate widows and orphans, men of sound finances and character shall be encouraged to marry among these widows with mutual choice Second marriage during peace time is a frank violation of the Quran – note “If you fear‟ in the beginning. Unfortunately under influence of false propaganda and false account of history people think that Muslims can marry up to four wives in any condition.
Editor
Brother, the verse clearly says to marry women of your choice “two, or three, or four”. Muslims take that to heart. I grew up in the middle east. When I was still living back there, a close friend of mine lied to me, to other friends, and to his wife, and denied that he is taking a second wife. This happened on a Friday. On the next Monday he had a second wife that he married on Saturday. This is Islam in practice. Taqiyya and lying is allowed. Taking another wife is allowed. What can I tell you. This is Islam. It is a religion of lying and of demeaning women.
Mr. Gulsaeed, it is nice of you to try to find some justification circumstances for Islam’s rules of polygamy. But this is how you want Islam to be. It is how you want to understand Islam and live it. But the fact is this is not true Islam. This is just your dream of what Islam teaches about marrying multiple women.
Gulsaeed
33:50 if a women becomes captive in a war; her Muslim master is allowed to rape her, Mr. Ali how hatred of your heart coming out from your mouth, nowhere Quran mention to rape captive. See the verse below.
Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils). (17-32) (YUSUF ALI), O Prophet! We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due share of property, and those women who have sought asylum with you and signed the marital contract (60:10). Also lawful for you in marriage were daughters of your paternal uncles and aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and aunts who had migrated with you. And lawful is a believing woman who wishes to marry the Prophet, forfeiting her due share and the Prophet is willing to marry her. This forfeiting of dowry applies to you only, and not to other believers. We have already decreed their rights regarding their wives and women who have sought asylum in their homes. This arrangement is designed to ease any social difficulties on you (as Head of the State). God is Absolver of imperfections, Merciful. (DR. SHABBIR AHMED, Allama Muhammad Asad) in the second century after the exalted Prophet, Muslims, under the influence of corrupted kings and Imams, had begun reverting to the old ways of Jaahilyah. Some verses foretell these conspiracies: 6:112-113, 22:52-55, 25:31, 42:13-14, 45:16-18. The word AW in 23:6 is explanatory. AW = Or – That is – Namely – Call it – In other words. AW appears in this format instead of ‘or’ in many places in the Qur‟an such as 23:5-7, 24:3, 25:62. Please also see 70:30. Ma malakat ayimaanukum = Literally, those whom your right hands possess = Those who are rightfully yours through wedlock]
Editor
Sir, Islam’s teaching about not raping women is only for Muslim women who are Free to start with. Muhammad Had sex with Mariya, the Copt, without marriage. She “Belonged” to him. Muhammad himself raped captive women of war. Please read this:
http://www.archive2012.faithfreedom.org/challenge/rapist.htm
In fact, rape was a matter of practice for all the early Muslim men. Have a look at this hadith:
Bukhari-Volume 3, Book 34, Number 432:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
that while he was sitting with Allah’s Apostle he said, “O Allah’s Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interrupt us?” The Prophet said, “Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.
Please note that “Coitus interruptus” means “pulling out” the male part before ejaculations. Early Muslim men used to rape the female captives. But to have a good selling price for them, pregnant women brought in less cash for them. Note that rape was not on Muhammad’s radar screen. His only concern was to let the Muslim men fully enjoy their “sexual experience.”
Short URL: http://www.archive2012.faithfreedom.org/?p=18324
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Dear Mr Sina
Hats off to your apparently unlimited patience! I have spent a whole life time talking, arguing and discussing with Muslim friends, but I have always come off thinking that they reason after they believe while the average Joe reason before they believe.
You are doing a really unenviable job; what with these logically challanged guys trying to talk their way through.
In this sense Islam IS a miracle! In that it so effortlessly makes them suspend belief, justify murder, trivialize decency, talk dishonestly and then claim to be the aggrieved party. They would demand concessions when they would give none, claim hurt feelings when asked to reciprocate and lie so effortlessly; it is indeed a miracle! Nothing less.
PDF files of "The Challenge"
http://schnellmann.org/essential_files/index.php?…
Please share to save humanity
Gulsaeed has now lost the debate,and found to be a fool.Do you think he will admit defeat,and leave Islam?Or rather would he not think of another excuse as foolish as the beginning?
It was this type of exchange which made Muslims to abandon their faith as fast as they can.If the nut Gulsaeed cannot be enlightened by the excellent points of Ali Sina,seekers for the truth will surely rule him out.
The efforts of Sina is well appreciated by all thinking people.
Oh my dealry Editor,
you said "I grew up in the middle east. When I was still living back there, a close friend of mine lied to me, to other friends, and to his wife, and denied that he is taking a second wife. This happened on a Friday. On the next Monday he had a second wife that he married on Saturday. This is Islam in practice." What is the Islam is in your word. This is the culture of the people of middle east. All the Sheikhs and tribal leaders and people have more than one wives on an average. Middle east , Nigerian, Africans have more than one wife and in old days if any one like to have sex with any woman man temporaryly marry her for sex. But you asked yourself is it not better than not marrying more than one but go to brothel or sleep with other women! but Arabs are polygamist before Islam arrived there.Did you read the research survey report published couple of years ago that European woman sleeps with a range of 12 to 22 man in the life time. Highest is new Zealand woman, send is britain 21 man. Most people highly educated, schollars (jews, christains or other religion) if they get chance will not miss to have sex, so what is worng if muslim want to have sex and marry a woman (to make it more lawful).
Even few thousand years ago there was no marriage system and people used to have sex with brother and sister there was no difference between human and animal. In old days if a king invade any new Island, he used to order to kill all men in that Island leaving only female to have sex with king. Many of the kings and queens had new man and woman every night to fulfill sexual desire.
You are always arguing that prophet married many women and sex with them. That's every muslim know you don't have to repeat again angain, prophet was not above the human desire, but what he did nothing was secret. there was no hyporacy in it. Was there any complain from any of his wives why he married them. All were very happy to live with him. You are talking about a 1400 years old social system and judging on modern ethical boundary. Even you if you travel extensively you will see culture in one society may be the extreme barbarism in another society.
OH my dear brilliant, educated, scholar editor, do you not know people in western countries do not wash their bam after pooing. Do not shower after having sex.If you go to east and ask them how do they comment about this barbarism,( is is different than animal) When an educated, scholar man getting drunk and dancing night with strip prostitutes, having oral sex in, bus, trains, and public places, how barbaric and beastly is that to easter eastern sense.
You are talking about ordinary muslim man. Oh my highly regarded adminsitrator, When the most powerful president Bill clinton ave sex with an intern monica or Algore naked himself before a ordinary hotel attendent girl, how do you define the moral teaching.
Prophet was living in the 7century arabean society, was his personal character not any better than other human. You and Ali called him pedophile, did he married a series of minor age girl in his life or violated them.
Prophet Muhammad did not have any secret life, every moment of his his personal and family life is publicly available. could not he marry a young girl at his 25. Do you want people to believe that his poverty was a barrier!!!!!! espite all of the negative propaganda why do you think people believe him as a most beloved human of God.!!! What special qualities he had as a human to attrack people!!! why did people listen to him, o you think it was easy to start from nothing and in 23 years became a very successful victories man. what do you think did he belongs to any personal qualities which other people never had. Do you think if the world most power full and richest man declare himself as a prophet and people will believe him, follw him!!. Do you not think muslim( such nuclare physist, molecular biologist) all are dumb and ex muslims philosopher are only clever and smart, intelligent, knowledgable because they found Islam is evil and barbaric Muslims are liar!!!!
Devon,
Have two strong cups of coffee…maybe that will wake you up
Ibn Kammuna,
Do you understand the difference between full moon and spliting moon! very simple question. Your prophet Ali Sina can not differentiate between this two.
Devon, You are indeed a True muslim. Normal people can think without bias. They can consider an issue from many different perspectives before concluding. Muslims like yourself can only see things from green Islam colored glasses. Even if something does not make sense, you must lie to yourself for satisfaction.
I do not think anyone needs to post a rebuttal to your long comment. People will know why NOT to be muslim, simply from reading its contents.
Editor said:
"Mr. Gulsaeed, it is nice of you to try to find some justification circumstances for Islam’s rules of polygamy. But this is how you want Islam to be. It is how you want to understand Islam and live it. But the fact is this is not true Islam. This is just your dream of what Islam teaches about marrying multiple women."
Mr Gulsaeed dared Faith Freedom International to publish his letters. And FFI did it, like it always does. And I suppose FFI really appreciates people who want to discuss the contents of the Islamic most important guiding texts in detail. As I appreciate it a lot.
But then it is shown, I think, that individual Muslims, learned though they may be, present only a version, their version of Islam, while presenting this as THE ISLAM. As it was meant by the supposed originator, Allah, and accurately reported by his Messenger and the Islamic authors and scholars thereafter.
But Islam IS as complicated and difficult to understand as Rocket Science, it seems to me. To build one's personal life around it, to me seems very risky, but everybody is free in that. But Islam has also a huge political component, effecting all humans coming into contact with it. And that part is very risky for all and must be debated.
- If Islam I, the most important guiding texts, and Islam II, the most authoritative interpretations of them, are studied, which they can be, because they are written down and finite, then it seems multiple more or less valid interpretations are possible.
And logically the most radical DILIGENT students have the best chance of understanding them. And that would be the so-called RADICAL muslims AND the Islam-critical students, who also keep learning in reaction to what all sorts of Muslims care to declare or to discuss, often in combination with their actions.
The vast majority of the so-called Moderate Muslims are really also MODERATELY Diligent, hence MODERATELY knowledgeable and understanding of Islam.
The Gulsaeeds of the world should understand that there are other often better understanders of Islam out there. As radicals AND sites like FFI, Islam Watch, Jihad Watch, Atlas etc constantly show the world, when serious debate is allowed to take place. It seems the Muslims almost always lose these debates on facts and logic. Not because they are dumber, but because they have to speak for a very weak cause.
In debate it becomes clear that all Muslims at best only adhere to one of many possible versions of Islam. That Islam itself is VERY shortcoming in clarity, VERY vulnerable to misunderstanding and misusing. That divers interpretations are all as valid or void as the others.
It should make all moderate Muslims humble, modest and most of all thinking about submitting wholly to Democratic laws. And siding wholly with Democratic forces against any Theocratic, tyrannical forces. By interpreting Islam in that way, if that is at all possible. Or finally declare themselves hopelessly anti-Democratic and longing for some Theocratic utopian state.
Look, Devon, you love Islam, your prophet and your fellow-Muslims, and you don't care one bit about the real truth because of that.
But all your excuses are not good enough. You are clutching at straws. Just as all these learned and intelligent Muslims you talk about. Islam was indoctrinated into almost all of you. The new converts into Islam found something to their liking in Islam, maybe it's great brotherhood and hospitality, or maybe that everything is neatly arranged for a person, so thinking and choosing is being done for you, I don't know. Sure enough, Islam also has some beneficial features, sure, Islam is a powerful, attracting message, in part.
But, look, Islam also has many drawbacks. And Ali Sina and his allies show them mercilessly and relentlessly to the whole world. And he knows, you know, being ex-Muslim and dedicating and risking his very life to fighting for Democracy and against Islamic tyranny. And he has so many great allies too. And believers and adorers.
And all you can do is trying to show that other people, from other faiths, or no faiths, have drawbacks too!!! duh, of course, as if we did not know that. But all you can do is portray Mohammed and Muslims as somehow not totally faulty, but still faulty to a big extent and other people also faulty. No more than that.
But, to give Muhammad and Islam so much power, so much influence, even at the cost of our precious, well-thought-out, balanced, wise, always changeable laws and values, for that you need much much more.
You need to show what Muhammad and Islam and Muslims brought and bring to mankind that is so much better and so special, something mankind cannot achieve without them. Something worthy of a great God. Now at best, you show us a very mediocre, dumb or lazy God.
All you can do is about damage-control, not showing excellence shown by Muhammad, Islam or Muslims. Nothing that has not and is not being excelled by the other humans. And if Islam and all it entails is nothing special, it's just a weird hobby of people.
You can show no extraordinary reason for supporting and allying with the most notorious oppressors and terrorists in the world and still not giving up on Islam and join the other fully Democratic citizens of the world.
Don;t you THINK reasonably at all? Or if you, don't you get tired trying to find excuses for Islam all the time? and really, does it not disturb you that you are "in bed" with Ahmadinejad, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden and all those other big murderous oppressors and terrorists???
Great replies, we remain on the side of reality.
Devon.
The humanity will love to help women, your Islamic ways could have helped too, but unfortunately Islam only made a wider gap in terms of woman/man equality.
The fact that Islam cages in women to avoid sex renders Islam guilty of misogyny, women are part of human resources in civilised lands, but Islamic countries deny themselves half the productivity they could have, this is among the reasons why Islamic countries are very poor, all this just to avoid sexual exposure, silly.
Multiple wives shows a lack of sensitivity towards the psychological trauma that polygamy instills, keeping two or three women frequently results in an undertrained children who finds it hard to become professionals, in the end, what you get are street thugs and terrorists, it takes a good economy and attention from a father to educate a large number of children, with Muslim poor background, this task is oftenly untenable, in the sub-saharan Africa, girls from such home end up as harlots.
Devon, it is more dignifying to go to brothels than to keep multiple women having sex with them from room to room infront of the kids, somtimes even divorcing the old ones on a whim to bring in fresh underaged ones, does VVF mean anything to you? go to Afghanistan and Nigeria for glaring examples.
The paradise of a wife is under the feet of her husband, this Islamic tradition made the societies strictly patriarchal, no equality is ever going to be achieved, only subservience and breeding machines known as muslim women, despite the multiple women, muslim men goes extra-marital, two thousand wo
en have been executed in Iran since 1979 for adultery related offences, men must have participated, but I guess since it wasnt done in the brothel it was alright.
Devon, am an ex-muslim, I no longer wipe with bare hands, I dont live in the medieval era anymore, cheers.
Oh! Oh! Oh! Devon!!! Devon!
How brilliant? The infidels can never fathom the depths of the Great Devon! Being a true Muslim, I think you should not be visiting Kaffar sites? Or…? Let ,me not guess! You are a closet apostate! Right! Your brilliant intellect and irrefutable logic is slaughtering (very very Islamic) the infidel arguments. You have won! Even then why do you whine and whimper? Please behave like your beloved Profit. He routed the Kaffar from the Penisula (or is Peninsula Devon? I am not sure of anything any more. Especially after you brilliant posts fave made jelly of my Kaffar brains)
If went home and slept it off you will alright tomorrow. But then tomorrow is another day! More Kaffar arguments to demolish, more citizens to bomb and at the end of it all those Black eyed Houris! (By the way you don't like any blue eyed or green eyed or brown eyed or slant eyed Houris? Did they abuse you when you were still a baby? Oh Poor you! By the when will you visit Sweden for that Nobel Prize? They are weeping for you!
Go as soon as possible. And please come back for your nose to be ground into dust here.
Have a very good day!!
Devon:
Reading and understanding your post gives me the idea that you appear very upset and angry. Instead of focusing on the topic, you chose to express your anger and pointed fingers. It is very normal for muslims to do this and you have been again another example to represent. When a mind is set to see something the way it wants to see, all follies are covered and justified. And you did exactly that. Did you know men love Islam because they have more rights? Do you have a clue how women feel when muslims men take other wives? You are a man and will not be able to go anywhere near the feelings and challenges of women in muslim countries.
If koran is the word of allah, did allah not know the future of the world? If allah is the all knower did he not know that women will want equal rights, and that it was wrong for him to dictate inequalities? If child marriage was acceptable at that time did allah not know that it was not right for a child to be touched by a 52 year old man? Do you understand this?
What makes you think that women lack poor focus? It has been scientifically proved that women can actually multi task and take different roles and manage better than men. Men compartmentalize. The brain of man is different while that of women are different. You got it wrong! Did allah know this ( he is all knowing). mohammad got everything wrong! and in the bargain proved allah wrong.
About women having sex in the west. Do you know vaginal reconstruction in the middle east for single women is on the rise? Just because women are covered does not mean they have no sexual desires? Check out all those hired drivers from developing countries who sleep with the women after the sheiks are dropped off. Get real! Islam is a failed strategy. Just look at the islamic world and their development. Anger is when someone rocks your boat, anger is normal when your belief is shaken, anger is when deep down you feel you are actually wrong. Loosen your grip on islam and question your thoughts. Muslims live in fear and die in fear. They have no life and they die in depression. Depression is anger directed towards oneself. Either it is directed outside or to oneself. Why do you have to do that? Because Islam is a grip on the minds of all muslims. One insane man took away your right to live with intelligent question. This is why Islam means "Submission".
Devon,
You said, “What is the Islam is in your word. This is the culture of the people of middle east. All the Sheikhs and tribal leaders and people have more than one wives on an average. Middle east , Nigerian, Africans have more than one wife and in old days if any one like to have sex with any woman man temporaryly marry her for sex.”
Are you suggesting that Islam as the absolute religion and the only true divine one from God submit to this behavior of ME and old Africans then insert it into its tenet? Is this the best a god can do? This is shown clearly in your sentence, “But you asked yourself is it not better than not marrying more than one but go to brothel or sleep with other women! but Arabs are polygamist before Islam arrived there”. Which one is better marrying many women at time or goes to the brothel? Both are “morally” wrong. Why? It’s because both of it can damage other people or even the culprit themselves. But the different is, in modern world both men and women can go to the opposite sex’s prostitution (not just men like in Islam). Second, these “western” behaviors are not a divine law and not all people practice it. You are comparing a social behavior of certain group of people to a divine law applied to all population and seek to legalize it. What if I use other countries that don’t do sex often for example, I can make Islam as totally wrong. Back to Arabs that were polygamists, did you want to say that Islam as the final solution for all time and all people blindly followed the Arab customs just because Muhammad was an Arab man with limited understanding? Now that will explain everything. This Islamic law made not only Arabs (maybe some of the tribes) who were/are polygamists to extend their patriarchal practice but also made all other non Arabs even the polyandry and monogamist to become one. The whole world embrace Islam means the whole world embrace polygamy and patriarchy. Got the point?
New Zealand and Britain, eh? That was a group of people that belongs to the same root. Why did you use them as a standard moral to make Islam right? Are they the paragon of the world? Are they the reflection of all humans in earth? Their behaviors are totally different from Islam because you were talking about women’s lust (in Islam it is ignored at all). Sex is a natural thing but only when you don’t make other people to suffer or at disadvantage. The question is, which one can do worse than other? Which one contains the suffering one? PS: Why muslims go to these unholy countries?
You then went on rambling about the past of Europe just like SlaveofAllah, I suggest you read that her discussion with me and continue it because my questions and arguments always go unfinished. Let me make an example: If I make a religion/law that kills your neighbor for food just like cavemen in ancient times then I make an excuse just like you that in the past ancient people did that, does that make my religion/law right? So, if I live like an emperor of China that had hundreds of concubines and make an excuse just like you. Does that make me right? What if I declare polyandry as the right path of God since people in the past practice it then there is nothing wrong with it. What’s wrong with that eh Devon? Sex is natural even for women, not only men like in your brainwashed mind.
Let me show you your mistakes:
1. Comparing apple to orange.
2. Trying to legalize Islam which only benefits men with both men and women’s behavior in the west.
3. Thinking that if other do the same or worse (even in the past) can make you right.
You said, “Was there any complain from any of his wives why he married them.”
First, the old and neglected Sauda, then Aisha, then Hafsa and the rest of the wives were cut out from conversation by Muhammad for a month. After his death all of them were forbidden to remarry which is absurd. Read the hadiths once in a while. It’s too long to explain. Here are examples:
Sahih Bukhari Volume Volume 6 Book 60 Number 311:
Narrated Aisha: I used to look down upon those ladies who had given themselves to Allah's Apostle and I used to say, "Can a lady give herself (to a man)?" But when Allah revealed: "You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive any of them whom you will; and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside (temporarily).' I said (to the Prophet), "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires."
Number 312:
Narrated Mu`adha:
`Aisha said, "Allah's Apostle used to take the permission of that wife with whom he was supposed to stay overnight if he wanted to go to one other than her, after this Verse was revealed:−− "You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives) and you may receive any (of them) whom you will; and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside (temporarily). (33.51) I asked Aisha, "What did you use to say (in this case)?" She said, "I used to say to him, "If I could deny you the permission (to go to your other wives) I would not allow your favor to be bestowed on any other person."
You have to know that in the eyes of his wives, Muhammad was the only representative of a god and this god always on Mo’s side so complaints are highly unlikely shown, maybe rarely and the rest of it were kept inside their hearts. Isn’t that how you behave in front of your superior or powerful people? Power can silence everything.
You said, “OH my dear brilliant, educated, scholar editor, do you not know people in western countries do not wash their bam after pooing. Do not shower after having sex.”
So? Is there any important thing in this cultural behavior (which has no known negative effect) that can make Islam as the true one? I for example always clean it so that makes me superior than you muslims who like to clean with dust if there is no water?
You said, “Prophet was living in the 7century arabean society, was his personal character not any better than other human. You and Ali called him pedophile, did he married a series of minor age girl in his life or violated them.”
Dear, of dear. You just shot your own foot here. Here:
Q 33:21. Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.
Q 68:4. And most surely you conform [yourself] to sublime morality
Still think that way? This is religion and eternal law, Devon, not just some man’s behavior in certain place and time. Get real and know the difference.
You said, “could not he marry a young girl at his 25. Do you want people to believe that his poverty was a barrier!!!!!!”
The condition of earlier Muhammad proves everything. A man with no financial independency and had to rely on his rich and old wife for many years as an employee. Do you seriously think he could do that or his powerful wife would allow that? Where is your common sense and real comparative example, Devon? Talk is cheap but proving is not. Smart one doesn’t believe but thinks with the brain, the fool one does.
Demsci, I agree with you on, “All you can do is about damage-control, not showing excellence shown by Muhammad, Islam or Muslims. Nothing that has not and is not being excelled by the other humans. And if Islam and all it entails is nothing special, it’s just a weird hobby of people.”
Yes, Islam is all about reaction, a human reaction to a specific situation in specific era. All of this Islamic tenets show human’s limited thinking and reaction. A true “God” should give a flawless and perfect way of life and solution which can be accepted by all creatures at all time, not like Islam. It’s like a very bright “light” which no eyes can stand.
Watching Islam is like watching old fashioned and barbaric people live and deal with their problem. There is nothing special about it at all.
Freedom,
You are correct about “Reading and understanding your post gives me the idea that you appear very upset and angry. Instead of focusing on the topic, you chose to express your anger and pointed fingers”. Emotion is always present when I talk to muslims and their favorite behavior is to blame others. If they live in India they will blame Hinduism, if in the West they will blame either Secular tenet or Christianity, if in Islamic countries they will rationalize it, and if in communist countries, well they will shut up.
You are also correct when saying, “Muslims live in fear and die in fear”. When they are alive they are afraid for their daily sins and Allah’s reaction regarding that sin so every time they want to say and do something they always invoke Allah in their mouth. For example, if someone swear or pray by the name of Allah to curse or give bad luck to their fellow muslims, they will freak out and angry. When they are dying they again are afraid because they don’t know the exact amount of their good and bad deeds or the satan and angel will be struggle for them, pulling them right and left, smashing their grave, go to hell for a fixed period of time, etc. Constant fear always haunts muslims.
Car313,
You said “Your brilliant intellect and irrefutable logic is slaughtering (very very Islamic) the infidel arguments.”
Is that sarcasm? I find no other possibility other than that.
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