FaithFreedom.org

Pete Rottier PhD vs. Ali Sina

Rottier: 

Dear Mr. Sina,

I have recently found your website and your challenge. Please tell me, as I read the requirements one would need to prove to you that Muhammad was indeed a prophet of God–is this true? If so, then your challenge is a sham–how can a believer convince a non-believer? A Christian would have a hard time convincing a Jew that Jesus was the son of God, would they not?

Sina:

You are right! There is no proof that any religion is true. However, no religion is forcing me to believe. Islam is the only religion that wants to conquer the world by Jihad and terrorism and impose itself on people by force. Muslims are killing innocent humans all over the world by hundreds of thousans for something they have no proof and it could be a total lie.

I do not mind people worshipping a phallus, as long as they don’t try to shove it in me. My problem with Islam is not that it is false. My problem is that Muslims want to shove their Allah in me by force. But I can’t take this much bull, and no amount of lubricant and sugarcoating help.

There have been over 13,000 terrorist attacks since 9/11, hundreds of thousands of deaths all over the world and more is to come. Why? Because the brain dead Muslims follow a psychopath who told them slay the non believers and you’ll get 72 white virgins and permanent erection. As stupid as Muslims are they have fallen for this lie, hook, line and sinker. What do you want us to do? Stand by, watch this senseless carnage of innocent lives and wait until our turn comes?

There are three choices: a) Do nothing until Islamic infestation spread throughout the world and we lose our freedom, our civilization and our lives. b) Rise up like the crusaders and show these rag headed savages that we can kill them better. c) Try to bring some sense in them and show them their filthy prophet was a mad man and they are not going to be rewarded by blowing up themselves and killing innocent people.

It is amazing that we have to even explain this to these brain dead zombies. Islam is insanity and Muslims are the stupidest creatures. Isn’t it obvious that one cannot be rewarded by killing other humans? Isn’t it stupefying that none of these Muslims asks himself, if God wants non-Muslims dead why he does not kill them himself? What kind of demonic god these animals worship?

Option ‘a’, is not an option. We the humanity, have earned our freedom with sacrifice and we are not going to give it up without a fight. Option ‘b’ is awfully painful because many innocent people will also perish. Option ‘c’ is the way we the ex-Muslims have chosen to solve this problem. We want to save the world from Islam and we want to save Muslims as well. We do not divide the world between ‘us’ and ‘them,’ Kafir and faithful.  We divide it between ignorant people and enlightened people. Educating the ignorant people and trying to bring some sense to them is our choice.

Although many people think this is a slow process, I know that this is the fastest way. Even though the Muslims are a billion, they are still one billion individuals. It does no take an eternity to awaken an individual. Our challenge is how to reach them and this is becoming increasingly more feasible.

Muslims are waking up and are reclaiming their brains, their conscience, and their humanity. They are also coming to see that they are not apart from mankind but a part of it. That we are all one people and we should not let charlatans like Hitler and Muhammad sunder us and rouse one group against another.

Rottier: 

Also, at another junction, you state that one needs to disprove your assertions that Muhammad was a madman, among other undesirable things. You accuse Muhammad of pedophilia but what criteria are you using? I’m sure you will want to chalk this up to moral or situational relevance but it is true that in 7th century Arabia a man’s prominence was directly associated with the number of wives as well as their youth and virginity. Like a CEO, athlete or entertainer, they keep score by how much money they make–this is what American society in the 20-21st centuries most values. So we look up to Bill Gates, Brett Favre, Michael Phelps, etc… and complain little that the obscene amounts of money they make could easily feed the hungary and send medicine to the sick.

Sina:

Assuming amassing money is a bad thing, Gates and the other guys you named are not our prophets. We do not follow their examples.

Assuming pedophilia was vogue in the time of Muhammad, which is not true, why a man who claimed to be the best example and a messenger of God had to follow the evil practices of a people whom he called ignorant? By doing so he made their evil practices, norms for everyone. Muhammad even married his own daughter in law, the wife if his adopted son, to show that adoption is abomination. Why he could not just limit his sexual vagaries to grownups and not set that evil example for his brain dead followers to emulate to this day? Pedophilia is a despicable thing. It is not just immoral, but a mental disorder.

Rottier:

It is likely that in centuries to come American greed will be frowned upon as immoral. So my point is that you must separate the cultural attributes from the religious ones.

Sina:

Greed is not American. It is human. As a matter of fact Muslims are far greedier than any nation. When a disaster hits a Muslim country, such as the last tsunami, few Muslim countries help, while the non-Muslims, particularly the Americans are at the forefront of sending humanitarian aids. The stingy Arab Sheiks are rolling in money that they did not earn, but they will not help their fellow Muslims. Gates has a humanitarian foundation helping children in many poor countries.

We all know greed is bad and have known this for thousands of years. There is no need to wait for future to reveal to us what we have always known.

Muhammad was also a greedy man. While Gates and others have earned their wealths legally, Muhammad became wealthy by plundering. Which one is worse? Gates became rich because you and I bought his products. He did not force us to buy them. Muhammad raided and looted unwary and unprepared people. Where is your conscience Mr. PhD, University Lecturer?

Pedophilia is far more evil than greed. You cannot even compare them. It’s a despicable crime. The pedophile is a monster that has to be separated from the society. I know pedophiles are victims of childhood abuse. This may very well have been also the reason Muhammad developed such a deviant sexuality. Nonetheless, I would rather euthanize all the pedophiles to save their victims and end this vicious cycle. Whether you agree with me or not is another point, but no one but a brain dead Muslim can think a pedophile can be a messenger of God and that he is a good example to follow.

Rottier:

You also need to be able to put actions you attribute to Muhammad in their proper context, including determining who wrote the Hadiths, and under what circumstances. Even the Qur’an was not recorded to paper until well after Muhammad’s death, which begs the question of whether all the recitations were actually made through Muhammad.

Can you please explain in what context a 54 year old man is justified to have sex with an 8 years 9 months old child? Does the context that the pedophile is a prophet of God makes this shameful act right?

The hadiths were collected by the devout Muslims. There is no reason to assume they lied to malign their own prophet whom they loved more than their own lives. This makes no sense.

Also if you want to doubt the hadiths and even the Quran then what makes you believe Muhammad was real? The whole thing could have been made up?

And how can we reconcile your claim that the Quran is corrupted with the Muslims’ claim that it is a miracle because it has not been changed? In either case I can show that Islam is a lie.

Rottier:

Let’s take the case of Hadith literature. You seem to indicate that since the sunna is a source of Islamic Law it is part of the canon of divine writings for Islam. This is not the case. Many people wrote Hadith literature to justify their own actions and projected these on the prophet of Islam. While the various Hadiths have been codified to try to weed out the ‘fabricated’ Hadiths, they were codified under the rule of Caliphs and Emirs who had a stake in what they said.

Sina:

Many people wrote hadiths to justify their own evil actions? Is this a logical argument or even plausible? The Gosples were also collected many decades after the death of Jesus. Why the Christians did not do such thing? How stupid you think we are Sir? Just think of these scenarios. A Muslim says I love little girls so I am going to visit Imam Bukhari and tell him I heard tje Prophet had sex with Aisha when she was nine. The other Muslim loves to rape women, he goes to Bukhari and tells him that Muhammad raided villages, butchered the men and allowed his followers to rape the women. He himself also took pretty girls, Juwairiyah , Rayhana and Safiyah from the captives and raped them. Another Muslim wants to torture people; he makes up the stories of Qinana and the Bedouins and says that Muhammad tortured them to death. It’s not just one narrator, but hundreds of them that confabulate the same lies. Now the miracle is that these narrators did not know each other. Another wonder is that they managed to fool, not only one eminent collector of hadith, like the great Bukhari but all of them. And all these luminareis and scholars were so dumb that did not realize these people are lying and libeling their beloved prophet with such gross accusations. Indeed you are a smart man.

Your reasoning is really mind boggling. But if you could think better, you would not be writing to me defending Islam.

Rottier:

These are also not the main religious texts of Islam. Indeed, they only are of concern to those interested in Islamic jurisprudence. The Hadith do not concern the day to day activities of Muslims–but give judges–the qadi, a source to look for solutions to Islamic problems. The biggest concern I have is that most of the 4 sunni schools of jurisprudence were sealed in the 10-11th century by a set of commentaries that even the originators of the schools would have objected to (Hanifi, Shafi, Hanbali, and Maliki).

Sina:

The laws are not just to read in the courts. They are to practice on day to day basis. You go to court when you fail them. Let us say the law says Muslims must not eat during the month of Ramadan in Public. This is a day to day law. When you break it you are taken to a religious judge who will order that you should be beaten. A 14 years old boy sucummed to severe beating in Iran and died when was endured 100 lashes for eating during the month of Ramadan in public.  If you are caught shoplifting your hand is to be chopped. If you have sex out or marriage you can be stoned to death. Islam is a way of life, and it applies to every aspect of one’s life. It is all about the observance of the laws and it is day to day and minute to minute law.

Rottier:

Since the 19th century Modernist Muslims have wanted to be able to modernize their societies by ridding their societies of this narrow view of Islam. They saw nothing wrong with women’s rights, co-existence with other religions, etc… Even the Ottoman Empire made provisions that accorded equal status to non-Muslims in the 19th century (Russia still had the Pale of Settlement until 1905–thereby controlling where Jews could live and what jobs, education they could obtain).

Sina:

There can be no modernization in Islam. Modernization is bid’a and it is strictly prohibited in the Quran (2:85, 6:114, 6:116, 2;174,16:89 39:23, 15: 90-92, 6:34, 10:64, 18:27). See this article also. That is why every attempt to modernize Islamic societies at the end fails. We Iranians have been trying to modernize our country for over 100 years. We failed miserably every time because Islam was in our way. It is like trying to swim while fastening a heavy weight to your body. You get pulled down and drawned. There cannot be modernization and democracy in Islamic countries as long as Islam is there. Furthermore if you like modernization why do you advocate for Islam? These two are mutually exclusive. You make no sense.

Rottier:

Only by looking at a much broader picture can you understand Islam. You seem to look directly and literally at a few sources and paint the whole religion with this view. It is simply not true.

Sina:

What is this ‘broader picture’ that every Muslim sees and no one can describe it? Why after 1400 years this ‘broader picture’ has not materialized and why when a country becomes more Islamic it also becomes more backwards, democracy disappears, human right are violated, women are dehumanized and education and well being suffer?

Does this ‘broader picture’ contradict the Quran? Then to the extent that it does, it is not Islam. If it is based on the Quran then we already know how it looks. The Saudis, the Taliban and the Iranian mullahs have given us a clear picture of how a Quran practicing society looks. We do not want that crap.

Rottier:

By the way, I would be happy to debate you but I am not a scholar of Islam per say. I have a PhD from the University of Wisconsin in Central Asian History but largely look at the growth of nationalism in Central Asia at the turn of the 20th century. My training is in both Russian and Modern Islamic history. I am sure I do not qualify as a prominent scholar and I am not Muslim–so I do not believe Muhammad is a prophet from God myself.

Anyway, I would love to hear your thoughts on my opinion.

Best,

Pete Rottier, PhD

Senior Instructional Designer

Center for eLearning

Lecturer

Department of History

Cleveland State University

p.rottier@csuohio.edu

Sina:

If you are not a Muslim why in the hell you defend this filth? Go and live for a few years in Iran or in Saudi Arabia and then let us see if you still have anything good to say about Islam.

I am sure you are familiar with the term ‘useful idiot.’ It is credited to Lenin. (This is not certain.) It is said that Lenin called those Americans who defended communism and denied its police-state terror, while loving their own freedom, ‘useful idiots.’ Lenin knew there is no freedom under communism. Another version says that he called the capitalists ‘useful idiots’ for willing to “sell us the rope with which to hang them.” In any case the term useful idiot refers to those who assist the enemy without having a clue of his real agenda. Useful idiot is a traitor, but one who acts out of naiveté.

The westerners who defend Islam, while at the same time like their own freedom and do not want to live under Islamic law are the real useful idiots. All one has to do to see the real agenda of Islam and Muslims is to listen to them. All one has to do is to read the Quran. That book is boring but you get enough idea just from the chapter 9, which is the last will and testament of Muhammad. The agenda of Islam is laid out in many hadiths and in the Quran, and particularly in the chapter 9. Listen to the sermons in the mosques and read the placards of Muslim demonstrators. One must be really deaf and blind to not know what Muslims want. They want domination, stupid.

So you want a debate with me! Well the fact that you have a PhD does not tell me anything. I lost any respect I had for this title the day I got mine. I never use it with my name and prefer to be called Ali Sina, or Mr. Sina. As Italians say, “i dottori sono molti, i signori sono pochi“  (Doctors are many, gentlemen are few.) If you want to debate with me, please read my book first. I am sure that book will wake you up. I don’t want your money. I will send it to you for free. I know you’ll make a donation after reading the book because you’ll be so thankful.

Two kinds of people convert to Islam – ignorant people, and evil people. We have the antidote for ignorance and have helped many such people to find their brains. As for evil people, they are better left in Islam. Fortunately there are a lot more ignorant people in the world than evil ones. Muslims are no exception.

I hope  belong to this bigger category and your next letter will be a thank you letter. Ignorance is easy to cure. Please don’t write unless you finish the book. This could save a lot or my time and a lot of embarrassments for you.

All the best

Ali Sina

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Short URL: http://www.archive2012.faithfreedom.org/?p=5229

Posted by on May 28 2009. Filed under Debates. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback to this entry

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  39. continuum1

    For a religion to spread as widely as Islam and only have a brief, few periods of conquest, an even slower rate of conversion–biggest myth around is Islam was spread by the sword; the Umayyads saw islam as an Arab religion,

    Seriously, you lose your credibility now. Islam was and is being spread by sword. The history of Persia, Indian subcontinent, etc. show that indeed Islam was spread by sword and other means of forced conversions.

  40. AliSinasMother

    hahaha, you bunch of imbeciles. I have read nearly all of Ali Sinas articles, I have studied Islam for 12 years to a high level, Islam is PERFECT. there is no system that exists on earth that can compare, this is why people are rushing in the millions to convert to Islam. in my own social circle consisting of roughly 400 people, i know of one apostate, and 30 converts. 30 people rush to Islam while one hypocrite leaves. there is no beating Islam, Islam will take over and when it does people will rejoice. the poor will be given their due, the elderly will no longer be neglected, the parents will be respected, the black man will no longer be discriminated against, sexually transmitted diseases, rape, incest, homosexuality, drugs, alcohol and the other ills that predominate western society will come to an end. Islam is the answer, millions are realising this, when will you.

  41. ibrahim

    This what I call taking someone's trip! Kudos to Ali Sina, we ex-Muslims have a lot to learn from you.

  42. londonspirit

    RAISINHEAD i told you dont forward questions to me. u talk xxxx

  43. mohammad

    londonspirit you still don't get it do you? how thick is your cranium? what ali sina and everybody here meant was that some muslims (such as osama bin laden, mas selamat kastari, mukhlas, moro islamic liberation front in the phillipine, rogue separatists in southern thailand of pattani, yala and narathiwat, saudi arabia swashbuckler, iran despotic regime, nordin mohammad top, azahari hussin, taliban in pakistan, afghanistan, etc., etc, etc.) are prone to use machete and bobms to physically inflict injuries or death to the unbelievers.

    whereas for the supposedly peaceful lot of muslims, the majority of them are not into physical torture or mutilation. but rather to a more subtle type of persecutions. such as forced conversions, economical deprivation, marginalization, etc. these are modern form of muslims torture towards unbelievers and mostly always done exclusively to the minority of a particular muslim majority country. or in those countries where population of muslims and unbelievers are almost balanced.

    mind you foreigners or expatriates that are working in those countries are always treated with respect because they bring business to the countries. those foreigners, mostly europeans brought foreign direct investment (fdi) and contributed immensely to islamic majority countries. since islam is always known to be a religion of hypocrites, little wonder why the foreigners are not subtly persecuted like the locals' unbelievers. do you understand now londonspirit? if you asked again why are they not dead. then you are beyond stupid. i don't know what to make of you anymore.

    what findings please prove it here that ayisha was 18 when muhammad penetrated her. i am not muslim and i don't trust solely on internet materials. quote us a reliable hadiths here. or you're just lying.

  44. londonspirit

    MOHMMAED your the thick one who cant understand simple basic terminology. Let me go through it in a few simple steps.

    Ali Sina who you agree with says in short that islam tells muslims to kill non-muslims and always quotes a verse, which says slay them wherever you find them. He cant seem to understand that that is relating to a war. So if he says islam teaches that and as muslims follow islam we accroding to the quran should kill non-muslims.

    So dont even bother go on and say that ali sina and everybody here meant was that some muslims (such as osama bin laden, mas selamat kastari, mukhlas, moro islamic liberation front in the phillipine, rogue separatists in southern thailand of pattani, yala and narathiwat, saudi arabia swashbuckler, iran despotic regime, nordin mohammad top, azahari hussin, taliban in pakistan, afghanistan, etc., etc, etc.) are prone to use machete and bobms to physically inflict injuries or death to the unbelievers.

    Cause that aint true.

    Next you say that the majority lot try to have a more subtle type of persecution. Use the right phases. Persecution means killing. Any way if the majority tries to force conversion than in malaysia there are 40% non muslims so why arent they muslims yet. stop talking nonsense. A country that has nearly half of the population which is non-muslim i think they have a lot to say with what goes on in a country and what doesnt.

    You also say foreigners working in the country are treated with respect because they bring business. Now i ask you. Malysia must have talibans and so on because they are a muslim country. I am going by what you say about muslim nations. Now assuming that there are only a couple of these talibans in malaysia. I am pretty sure they would act injustly with these foreighners and kill them. Has there ever been a case like that.

    You speak total nonsense mohammed. These people dont care whether they bring money into the economy or not. But lets go by what you say anyway. I want to ask you why isnt malaysia 100% muslims if there are forced conversion. Why havent they left the country if they have been economically deprived. If the racist group of britain came into power. I know many people would leave the country if they have been economically deprived. How are hindus and other people who belive in other rellgions surviving in the counrty.

    You base your arguments on useless theories. It is so simple.

    If someone acted in a way that is abusive or something, normal reaction is people retaliate. If people are not economically stable they move to find a place where they can make money. My brother couldnt find job in london so he moved to manchester which is over 200 miles away. So dont tell me that people are subjected to forced conversion by majority of muslims and still you have 40% non-muslims. And dont tell me people are economically derived because if they were they would move to a place where they can get money to support their family.

    Anything else MOHAMMED

  45. Demsci

    Hallo LondonSpirit. I looked up the website you gave. It was very good of you to look it up, thank you. It agrees with what I said earlier, there must be some misunderstanding. You see the democratic world light and the Islamic world is mostly very dark. Check it out, please. The Islamic world is NOT democratic, nothing could be further from the truth! Only Turkey, Indonesia, now Lebanon, the Palestinians, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq + some central asian Islamic countries have had elections so far.

    I grudgingly admired your reasoning about the politicians, it is often tough to discuss with you, congrats.

    Look, you are doing the right democratic thing by reacting to us so diligently, you are refuting accusations, assumptions with reason, research. You are well educated. And I think for democracy to work it is necessary, important a lot of people get reasonably educated, reasonably honestly informed, being rational and such.

    But about hate-speech, what you accuse Ali Sina of; it is a hopeless quest you are on there. It has always been there, from the people in power, and most people could not talk back to them then for fear of their lives or freedom. In democracy hate-speech is indispensable, it is everywhere, it will always be there. It is to be accepted, not to be whined about, as it does not injure physically, gets the truth out, controls people, let people behave better and improve themselves etc.

    Yes, Ali Sina gives hate-speech, but it is so UNJUST when you point to Ali Sina only. You must know about the daily hatred against the jews out from Islamic media. Often also to Westerners, Americans especially. Ali Sina is giving only one tenth back. Moreover, among his "Hate-speech" is a huge amount of information and real FACTUAL accusations, which you could not in your life refute all. And we already noticed you can do so only very selectively.

    Ali Sina, coming from Iran, knowing so much of Islam firsthand, of course he wants something better, we see it as noble. Like someone coming out from North Korea and being anti-communist. I heard from Iranians themselves how monstrous that regime in Iran is. Blame them for driving Ali Sina to this!

    My best wishes go to him, but after that also to you.

  46. londonspirit

    DEMSCI what do you want me to check out. please state. Anyway if you have watched that documentry you would realise it is absolutely impossible for that attack on 9/11 to be conducted by muslims. Literally no chance.

    You say the islamic world is not democratic apart from the countries you mentioned. there are only 6 islamic nations that are not democratic. The rest are. And even Iran is becoming more democratic. Do you know DEMSCI they are holding elections in iran. look it up.

    And no i dont pint out only ali sina in regards to hate speech. The only reason i say his name is becuase he is prmoting a hatred website. I can easily say people like geert wilders, bush, the bnp ,hitler and so on that they are all retarded liers who do things for their own gain. I can also say about muslim people, like the saudi king and egyptian president, who didnt even help palestine when they were being attacked, also muqta asada, and the hook guy as well who has a prostitute daughter. These muslims are also retarded liers who do things for their own gain. These leaders are the ones who corrupt the world for peaceful existance.

    you talk about real factual accusations that ali sina speaks about. DEMSCI have you read his book understanding muhammed. I am in the process of reading it now. The book is full of lies and contradiction.

    In one place he would say he dont belive in religion and in the next sentance he would say he is blessed.

    In one place in the book he wold say muhammed was unloved as a child and literally in the next verse he would say muhammed was deeply loved by his uncle when he was young. Was he loved or not loved?

    In one place he would say that muhammed is a pedo and in the next verse he would say muhammed married khadija to get amother figure. Did he love older woman or younger woman. which one.

    Is this the guy you listen to who is a doctor. If i can point out these misley errors what do you think islamic scholors who are much wiser and cleverer than me can pick out

  47. mohammad

    see! again you are asking why aren't they dead yeat. i have warned you that question is stupid and i gave you reasons but still you are beating the bushes. what ali sina said about the verses of killing non-believers are true. it has been asserted by the actions of minority of islam. i agree with you here, "mi-no-ri-ty". but nevertheless with shocking results such as 9/11. more so when they are holding quran with one hand hand and machete on the other. you always only minority are using islam as a tool to terrorism. i agree with that. and i also agree that the verses in the quran about killing non-believers are used justify the terrorists actions. do you not agree with that londonspirit?

    we are not promoting hatred here. we are trying to bash islam not muslim. do you understand the difference now. we never touch on any good verses in the quran and villify it. we just took the very evil verses to reason why muslims act as they are told by islamic teachings. it is to promote hatred against hate teachings in islam. but it never promoted hatred against the people in islam. we want to educate them so that they will know what actually islam is all about. then it;s up to them to keep believing it like you do, or apostatize and throw islam into the dumpster.

    persecution could mean subjugation and marginalization as well. or systematic mistreatment of an individual or group of individuals. what's with you harping on 40% unbelievers in malaysia? do you know the number is dwindling by the day? you were wrong about malaysia constitution and about all malays must be islam. you were wrong about many things. forced conversions are happening everyday. but muslim in the country are more careful in their actions now that international community and human rights group are scrutinizing the world over. that's why i said muslim are sickeningly hypocrites to the core.

    are you stupid or what? or no! ive been asking it so many times and indeed you are. no point to ask anymore. for your information talibans are in pakistan. we don't have talibans in malaysia. but those so-called moderate modern islam. and again one mmore time you tried to speak now on behalf of islamists in malaysia. that they don't care if foreigners bring business. how do you know? your patronizing mis-demeanour is stupid yet irritating from the outset. please do not speak on behalf of other people anymore. you look sillier the more you do that.

    it is you who base your arguments on useless theories. It is so simple.

    it is you yourself who vindicate your islamic virus when you said "If someone acted in a way that is abusive or something, ^^'normal'^^ reaction is people retaliate". retaliate means to return like for like, esp. evil for evil. no wonder van-gogh was murdered by muslim when he made a film that touches on islam. but wait! no! van-gogh didn't kill any muslim. but muslim killed him. so what's is the retaliation all about? it was not fair. it was not an eye for an eye. it is imbued into muslim braint to retaliate whenever quran or islamic teaching is scrutinized or being challenge. because their reasoning is quran is the most perfect book from allah via muhammad the pedo. these people do not believe in freedom of speech, let alone freedom of religion.

    no we the christians, hindu, buddhists, non believers do not retaliate the way that muslim do. never will we shed blood on the streets. we will fight through proper channels. to educate the muslim and to convert them from that virus of the society. does that answer you questions on why we did not retaliate?

    in my humbler opinion malaysia is one of the moderate modern islamic nation which is more subtle in its persecution of the minority. the government only marginalize, suppress dissidents, imbalance opportunities, forced conversions, etc. but even if it's subtle from the outside (the westerners viewpoint), it is rotten on the inside. you cannot compare apple to apple; as what's happening in pakistan's taliban with what's happening in malaysia. malaysian apple is polished on the outside.

    you haven't answered with a reliable hadith that ayisha was 18 when muhammad make love to her?

  48. mohammad

    i don't care it was only some of muslims who are at fault. the gist of the problem is that they used islam to justify their crime.

  49. Demsci

    OK, LondonSpirit, reading the book of A.S. and criticizing it or his whole website is your role and OK by me, although I don't agree. My role is to defend him.

    About 9/11; I saw another documentary in which the opposite was proven. For now I believe that one. But you are right to examine everything, bringing up proof for it.

    De Democracy-issue was vital for my whole reasoning the whole time and I stick by it. You stick by your vision. No problem, maybe later we will sort things out. I forgot to mention Kuwait, maybe Bangladesh by the way.

    About Iran; what a sham!!! I know how that goes; Khamenei/ ayatollahs is in absolute control. Before elections a screening of candidates is made. Any way, most real opposition knows not to apply, because it is useless, possibly dangerous. Only the candidates that are approved by Khamenei/ ayatollahs then enter the presidential race. They and you call this democracy, only it isn't. Thomas Friedman spoke about it. It is literally like the archbishop of Canterbury excluding all LIBDEMS and LABOUR-candidates for the elections, allowing only a PART of the Conservatives to run.

    Ali Sina promotes an opposition-website of sorts. He has the right to allow "Hate-speech" in there. If you are against it I feel it is a hopeless quest, but if you are serious, then raise the issue also with Islamic websites.

    But I appreciated what you said about both Western and Islamic leaders being "in the game" for their own gain, you looking more equally at both "sides". I' ll try to do the same.

  50. londonspirit

    Mohammed Just get one thing into your head. I am only quoting what you tell me. Look i will answer what you trying to say using post 311 and we will see who is the stupid one.

    Mohammed said: what ali sina said about the verses of killing non-believers are true. it has been asserted by the actions of minority of islam.

    I advise you to look at the verse that ali sina related to and just spend a bit of time looking at the verses above or below it. Than you will get your answer what the verse is actually saying. These minority muslims do the same thing as you guys. They read the verse kill and they think it literally means kill non-muslims.

    i agree with you here, “mi-no-ri-ty”. but nevertheless with shocking results such as 9/11. more so when they are holding quran with one hand hand and machete on the other. you always only minority are using islam as a tool to terrorism.

    9/11 was done by the usa goverment. it is no more a consipracy and day by day youy get more usa citizens asking the questions. Quran in one hand and machete on the other. Mohammed have you ever heard the word boasting. This is what these people are doing. They are boasting.

    and i also agree that the verses in the quran about killing non-believers are used justify the terrorists actions. do you not agree with that londonspirit?

    Yes i do agree with this. But like I said before these people are like ali sina who just read one verse that says kill but dont read the verse above or below that might say but dont kill the ones that are peace ful and only gfight the non-believers that fight you. Do you get what i am trying to say.

    we are not promoting hatred here. we are trying to bash islam not muslim. do you understand the difference now.

    Are you literally stupid. when i said about 40% malaysian are foreign you said i am deeply insluting the people by calling them that. Now you tell me if you were to bash islam dont you think muslims will be deeply effected. After all muslims are derived from islam.

    that they don’t care if foreigners bring business. how do you know?

    Well if someone is a terrorist or a muderer, generally they are able to take life without any care in the world of who will they be effecting, do they have children relying on them and so on. So what makes you think they will care if these people make the economy grow. Use your brain mohammed

    for your information talibans are in pakistan

    The USA goverment says taliban are in afganistan, bangladesh, egypt,syria,libya, majority of north african countries, iraq, iran and many more. Under the eyes of the USA the taliban exists even in UK and USA. So please dont tell me that taliban dont exist in malaysia cause the USA also says they exist in indonesia and are the ones that done the bali bombing.

    but wait! no! van-gogh didn’t kill any muslim. but muslim killed him. so what’s is the retaliation all about?

    You see the level of religious belief that some muslims have in comparable to the religious belief that christians had many years ago. Whereby you questioned but you never insulted. When you insult than you would be put to death by the law. These events took place in england many years ago. Some people have this way as well where you question but you dont insult and if you insult they take it deeply, this is not common nowadays only by muslims but also by christians alike.

    it was not fair. it was not an eye for an eye. it is imbued into muslim braint to retaliate whenever quran or islamic teaching is scrutinized or being challenge.

    Van gogh didnt challenge islam. he made a video clip with the words of allah and on top of that a gal in a bikin dancing on top of it. There are many other clips he made. Now you tell me is that a challenge or is that an insult. How do you think the christians would react if van gogh made a clip with a gal bare naked rubbing the bible on here private parts and moaning. Let me tell you it would be so disrespectful that you will get a christian person killing van gogh.

    What would you do to your wife if you found her cheating. You would retaliate.so dont bring up pitiful excuses like van gogh.

    You think christians dont retaliate. They retaliate over a pint of drink. They retaliate if someone insults them. and they also retaliate if you speak against christianity. Go to irleand near the uk and speak against christianity and you would surely be dead. So without any information please dont put stupid theories.

    And in regards to ayesha i told you do your own research

  51. Demsci

    LondonSpirit, I am Dutch and I know that Theo van Gogh both challenged and insulted Muslims, he used to call them "Geitenneukers", something like Goat-abusers.

    You are entitled to your opinion, but we on FFI differ vastly with you. I know that in Holland, and everywhere in Christian countries, UK, Ireland just the same, Christianity and Jesus were for a long time deeply challenged and insulted, mostly by Leftists. They were also oppressed by Communists, by the way. What people were saying about Christianity was as bad or worse than anything you can imagine about Islam. But the Christian reaction was vastly different from the reaction of the Muslims. Van Gogh would NEVER have been killed by a Christian for ANY insult, about Jesus, sex etc.

    Moreover, what I notice with you and other Muslims is that you call Christians all those who originated from Christian countries. I think we are very careful to distinquish between self-professed Muslims, as the terrorists we mention all are, and people who happen to originate from Islamic countries.

    Also we differentiate according to motivation; is it religious based or based on other motivations. This is something you sometimes also say yourself.

    I know you are here to defend Islam and your defense is basically that what Muslims do wrong, when you admit that, they do so because they are fallible humans, and the followers of other religions also do wrong, just because they are fallible humans. And in large part I agree with you now. But not entirely.

    I think Islam does have an influence and that even in personal life there are better ways, but that is personal. For society, which concerns all of us, there are better ways than the Islamic ways we feel.

    As you are so candid, so I like to be candid also. As you are so adamant in exonerating Islam from everything self-professed deeply religious Muslims do that hurts, subjugates other people, I am adamant that the influence of Islam on any GOOD behavior can just as easily be denied as its influence on any BAD behavior.

    Therefore, for societal and personal use to us Islam is so irrelevant. And Muslims should come up with reasons for relevance in 21st century. And we can refute those. Then we have stalemate. So please admit every now and then some responsibility of Islam for bad behavior of self-professed followers. You can't refute all this massive amount of challenge. Many followers of other religions have admitted and apologized for behavior of their co-religionists. It reflects poorly on Muslims that they are the only ones who can't do it.

    Also when you are countering us when we criticize-insult-challenge Islam, kindly turn the roles around and try to defend the Israeli's/ Jews to Muslims the way you defend Muslims to Westerners. Jews are so intensely hated and vilified in the Muslim world. If you are so culture-relativist then that must include Jewish people also. Exonerating faiths is a 2-way-street. Compare kills with kills, numbers with numbers, motivations with motivations etc. With the same yardsticks. I tell you, the whole case against Israel will drop away, when you do that. As you want us to drop the whole case against Islam.

  52. Demsci

    Don't you see, LondonSpirit? When we challenge Muslims about verses in the Quran about killing, subjugating others etc. you respond with: "It was war, it is all about self-defense". So too Israel claims what it is doing is self-defense. Make up your mind please, was it in both cases self-defense, in both cases blatant violations of human rights, or in only one of the cases the first and in the other the second?

    You see, our first line of defense against this powerful Islam, expanding so rapidly, is actually comparing, asking for the same yardsticks to measure all faiths/ peoples/ persons, in a 2-way-street-fashion. So why don't we start with Israel?

    By the way, thank you again for giving us this wonderful opportunity to discuss. You are a godsend. I see you as a good human being who happens to believe in Islam.

  53. mohammad

    londonspirit,. it's you who refuse to get even a simple idea that islam is rubbish. totally irrelevant in this and centuries to come. when you defend islam, you defend it entirely and refuse to accept that there are some irregularities in the religion particularly quran. theway you repsented your idea hinted that you regard quran as perfect, and would never challenge anything that was written in it. you are completely foolish to think this way, this is the thinking of fundamentalist islam.

    muslim refusal to admit or even apologize atrocities that they made to this world is absurd. stupid at times. they always say to extend a hand to for religious discourse, but at the same time do not want to admit the quran mistakes, imperfection in the delivery in quran. so much so that people like you need to use multiple parentheses to inaccurately explain certain verses.

    you also agree with me that some terrorists do use quranic verses to justify killing. and that these are confuse people like ali sina who often interpreted quran not as they were intended buy muhammad the pedo. now tell me why a book soooo perfect produced so many confused followers? or is muhammad intend to make the world chaotic for his bewildering statements in quran.

    you said "these minority muslims do the same thing as you guys. they read the verse kill and they think it literally means kill non-muslims.". no brother you are wrong! we don't kill non-muslims. it's muslims that kill non-muslims, due to confusion in the quran. we condemn such a verse. and this is what we do in this wesite. to put islamic teaching into scrutiny. and to educate the muslims like you who still have blind faith in islam.

    you said the people are boasting when they hold quran in one hand and machete in the other. how proper of you saying such stupid things. i wonder why your allah let its people boast in killing non-believers. even if the killers misinterpreted the quran. and if your allah really is the one god, he should not let the people kill and holding the quran at the same time.

    believe me i got what you are trying to say that the killing and smiting verses are in the context of war. i do, i really do. but answer me honestly here what do you consider as war? is converting a muslim society into christian a war? is teaching buddhism in school to muslim children can evoke war-like situation to islam? this is the problem, islam will be happy to accept new converts into it. but they will never tolerate if some muslim are to convert into otehr religions. why? because they say they are the only true religion in the world. that islam is perfect. this is inherently autocratic/despotic so to speak. this arrogance will one day throuw islam into the dumpster of history.

    you are the stupid and foolish one. when i say to bash islam, part of it is to educate them. to let them know and are able to challenge their belief. not just blindly defend it like you do here. who knows maybe one day islam can truly be reformed. though i doubt it will happen.

    i am using my brain to think here. unlike you who have a brain useless because of total devotion towards islam. you always take argument in a blanket without sifting and putting them in the right context. i always said that those who kill are minority. i told you i agree with that. majority muslims are hypocrites though. because they would not kill, but instead care for their own wellbeing, having these foreigners operating business in their country will benefit them more than to kill the foreigners. i see tthat you are not using your brain londonspirit. you cannot grasp even a simple idea like that.

    your reasoning that usa is responsible for 9/11 is a sample of islamic stupidity. give us a reliable proof here. you also could not prove that ayisha was 18 when muhammad sleep with her. asking me to find it myself is a reflection that you don't evemn know what you're talking about. i bet you scoured the internet but couldn't find any. poor londonspirit.

    i do see that religious belief of contemporary islam has much similarity with christianity centuries ago. christianity is today reformed. no longer you will hear christians go round chanting on the street that jesus is great or 'trinity huakbar'. pun intended. no longer you will see execution of the heretics or dissidents. when you say this; are you condoning killing as retaliation for insult? is it fair?

    let me tell you christians will not act as muslims did if they are insulted or challenge or villified. it is a part of its duty to persevere in the face of critics. and it did that successfully for thousand of years. one example is the making of the movie the da vinci code that is truly insulting when they brought an idea that maria magdalene was jesus sex companion. what a surprise that nobody go around killing the movies' casts and producers. tom hanks is still walking around freely these days.

    you are asserting yourself as stupid islamic henchman by the day.

  54. mohammad

    are you saying that because van gogh insulted islam. therefore his muder by a muslim is justifiable?

  55. [...] Phawker » Blog Archive » REWIND: 2008 The Year In Phawker Tawk 2008Pete Rottier PhD vs. Ali Sina | Faith Freedom International [...]

  56. IslamTheTrueReligion

    In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

    Islam is a religion that God commanded humanity to follow as God Almighty “Allah” (s.w.t) said in Holy Qur'an Al Ma'idah 5:3:

    "…This day I have Perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

    In Surah Aal-I-Imran 3:85, God Almighty “Allah” (s.w.t.) also says:

    “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam never will it be accepted of Him and in the hereafter is one of the losers”.

    The name of religion “Christianity”, “Judaism”, “Buddhism”, “Hinduism”, “Zoroastrianism”, and other sects and religions are not mentioned in their holy books (i.e. from very first page to last page of Bible whether in New Testament or Old Testament, and other holy book respectively) that God said mankind has to follow their religion respectively because these religions are made by men. They are not made by God. This is the reason that such religions are named after names of men who supposedly teach or reform the people. For example, Christianity is named after Jesus Christ(a.s.), Judaism after the clan Judah, Buddhism after the reformer Buddha, Hinduism after the tribe Hindus, Zoroastrianism after Zoroaster, etc… Finally, the most important reason of all, is that all of these religions in one way or another, WORSHIP A CREATION, which contradicts the Purpose of Creation.

    If all the above mentioned religions don’t have evidence themselves that their religion is to be followed, so, how much more Darwin’s Theory of Evolution? All parts of human body and fossils discovered as evidence of the theory did not evolve but remain the same for billions and billions of years until today – - an evidence that they are created.

    God Almighty “Allah” (s.w.t.) says so many times in the Qur’an how He Created All Creations as Signs for people to reflect. Allah (s.w.t.) chose the name Islam as a religion for humanity because of its meaning “Submission to the will and commands of Allah (s.w.t.)” . Obviously, ALL Creations including all parts of your body (i.e. heart beats, blood flows, etc…) function under the Will and Command of Allah (s.w.t.).

    Think how all parts of your body, inside and outside, are systematically and intricately shaped, formed and organized, each part serves a purpose – - your heart beats, your blood flows, even the tiniest part that you don’t know exists. That is how God Almighty “Allah” (s.w.t.) puts or “commands” them to do. All parts of your body are true muslims than what you think – - not Christians, atheists or whatever religion you follow – - since they just function under the commands of Allah (s.w.t.).

  57. Tuvong

    (IslamTheTrueReligion wrote:)

    The name of religion “Christianity”, “Judaism”, “Buddhism”, “Hinduism”, “Zoroastrianism”, and other sects and religions are not mentioned in their holy books (i.e. from very first page to last page of Bible whether in New Testament or Old Testament, and other holy book respectively) that God said mankind has to follow their religion respectively because these religions are made by men.
    ——————————————————————————————————–
    I think you are one of the most ignorant person on this planet. You are so confident to say that the name "Christian" did not appear in any of the old testement or the new testement. Let me help you my dear ignorant followers of pedo mo. There are many verses in the new testement where the name "Christian" appeared; let me just take one for you.
    Acts 26:11-26and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch
    ————————————————————————————————————————————————–
    (IslamTheTrueReligion wrote:)

    They are not made by God. This is the reason that such religions are named after names of men who supposedly teach or reform the people. For example, Christianity is named after Jesus Christ(a.s.), Judaism after the clan Judah, Buddhism after the reformer Buddha, Hinduism after the tribe Hindus, Zoroastrianism after Zoroaster,
    —————————————————————————————————————————————
    CHRISTIAN IS NAMED AFTER JESUS CHRIST.
    The name christian came as a result of those who follow JESUS CHRIST; This name has been predicted by the prophet 100's of years before Christ appear…Let me quote to you the prophecy in
    2 chronicles 7:14 –
    if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

    The followers of "CHRIST" has been called after the name of their GOD is not a coincident. The prophetic word came when GOD spoke to King Solomon during the dedication of the first Temple.
    IF MY PEOPLE WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME…………

  58. Parviz

    I am really surprised that Dr. Sina who has better things to do, such as write scholarly books like "understanding Muhammad", is wasting his valuable time arguing back and forth with an academician, who has a scant knowledge of reality, and writes so much and says so little.

    The answer to Dr. Pete Rottier should be this, go and take a look at what's happening in Iran. What the Mullas and grand Ayatollahs ( The word means God's shadow or ambassadors on earth !! ) are doing which is according to their correct understanding of their leader Muhammad and his Qur'an. They are doing no more or no less than what Muhammad has commanded them to do. When the world, including Muslims, condemn these Mullas they are condemning their leader Muhammad. It is a contradictory statement for the world leaders & governments such as US to says that Islam is a peaceful religion when they condemn the action of the Ayatollahs as brutal and inhumane. For the Ayatollahs and what they do is " Islam " put into practice.

    Dr. Pete Rottier's academic learnings, opinions and theories are irrelevant to the real life as we witness and see happening in front of our eyes in Iran. I just hope that Dr. Pete Rottier's lectures don't mislead and poison the minds of our young and impressionable children.

    Thank you,

    Parviz

  59. Akash

    If all the above mentioned religions don’t have evidence themselves that their religion is to be followed, so, how much more Darwin’s Theory of Evolution? All parts of human body and fossils discovered as evidence of the theory did not evolve but remain the same for billions and billions of years until today – – an evidence that they are created.

    God Almighty “Allah” (s.w.t.) says so many times in the Qur’an how He Created All Creations as Signs for people to reflect. Allah (s.w.t.) chose the name Islam as a religion for humanity because of its meaning “Submission to the will and commands of Allah (s.w.t.)” . Obviously, ALL Creations including all parts of your body (i.e. heart beats, blood flows, etc…) function under the Will and Command of Allah (s.w.t.).
    ______________________________________________________________________________

    There is a big debate going weather human was created or evolved from champs. Well that also led us the ideologies of creationism and evolution ism.
    Alas both does not really satisfy the true origin, Human origin in evolution is old as 100000 year, which kind of not explain why there were so many advance civilizations before us like Sumerian, Babylon, Egypt etc which believe in angel coming from heavens (From the sky can be aliens) who cerated them in clay , in vitro lab and a cross between their DNA and champ DNA produce human.
    (We created human in our own likeness in our own image)

    that can be seen in a little comparative studies
    like human genome have 46 chromosomes and champs have 48.
    Human use genetically 1/8 of his brain and champs use all of their brain.
    Human have same passage for air and food where as Champs have separated passages for food and air.
    etc

    These are few differences which clearly show that there is big hole in understand the science of evolution.

    But as far as religion stories we read and compare them with old stories of origin like in Egypt and specially Sumerian we find out that whole bible and Quran seems to be originated from these stories.

    There is a good read to start Dr.Zecharia Sitchin.

    This all debate become totally aim less when we start thinking that end of the day we could be a genetic experiment of some advance race and like the example of tower of Babylon was destroyed when human becomes so advance that they can match their Gods. Which is the prove that religious book indicate that the gods were not like something we cannot compete with they were like us or we are there image and when we become more advance they come to destroy us as they do not want us to be as strong as them.

    This is my theory which kind of explain why we have these ancient structure like pyramids whose mystery is still unexplained and where all that knowledge is gone if that was human and only human.

    This concept also backup by the stories of Jin in qurran and nephilim in bible.

    Dear reader the above few sides which i mention are require your attention which can lead to research in these topic create your own understanding and come out of the aimless discussion about who is right or wrong try to put all collective effort toward the understanding the real question.

    If that old civilization were destroyed who was the destroyer and how we can defeat them or it. I think we start searching this way the reality come in front us that like we use and abuse other being like horses for to be our slaves why cannot we be just another experiment of some advance race.

    Regards,
    Akash.

  60. asfar

    if Ali Sina says Islam is wrong, then he means every religion is bad, but Islam is bad because it is practice by people, and all religions are just for name.

    so every people who think they believe in religion like Jews, Christians, Hindus should not visit this site, unless he or she like to criticize his most sacred books and religious role models.
    and if anybody do this, i am sure he was a HYPOCRITE and Biased person.

  61. Yas

    All i gotta say is i Credit P. Rottier for having the courage, patience and the time to respond to all the idiots on this site. LOL i must admit it was quiete entertaining at first then it got down right childish. To Contintum or whatever your name, your argument for Prophet Mohammed PBUH for being a pedophile was ridiculous. I dont know how you join two difference things together and make it into one and support your reasoning. And even if you do join it, it did''nt make sense. Then again i dont blame you as its been say There are those whose hearts have been sealed and nothing can help them. I pity you my friend, thats all i gotta say. Mad respects for Rottier not because he was supporting the writings in Islam but writing to refute again Ali Sina's retarded arguments and having the courage and patience to put up with with his retarded fans.

    PEACE

  62. commentor

    This alisena… he does'nt have sina.. because his sina is with Satan's hand. He will never realizes because he is a fake muslim named, who was sponsored by the christian community to debate and write against Islam. There is nothing that these people can bringe a change to our holy book. Quran is the last holy book which is revealed for all the humanity.. no other book will come to support this EVIL people. There are many of them who are here is their objective is to blame Islam and muslims.. When it comes the true human beings they will understand what is right and what is wrong.. There are many websites who this christian missionaries or may be someone else who is supporting to write against the Quran. Allah has sent a such beautiful book, no one can prove anything wrong. They only have not understand this book. Because unbelievers are not interested to change their minds and their forefathers property. alisina is a fake muslim name.. he is may be a muslim born but he is a christian later joined the hands of Satan..or brought up like a kaffir. for Satan's friends like the satan's deeds very much.. they like EVIL deeds and they do support the evil and such evil people get into the satan's hand to the hell.

  63. Shabbir

    It is pathetic to see that Mr Sina has used highly judgmental and abusive language. He should use a more formal language to justify his claims. So that his arguments sound more logical than mere emotional outbrust.

  64. Keshto

    Guys There is a big paki propoganda that 25 Pakistani scientists are working on big bang project at CERN LHC, which I think its fake and a taqiyya…..But at the same time I am not able to refute this claim for the lack of information….Thats why I am here for your help……..

    So that I bombard them at http://www.chowk.com with thier lies…. http://techlahore.wordpress.com/2008/09/16/27-pak

    Thanx for anticipated help

    Keshto

  65. Haha_000

    Hey Prottier, Hey OK, you are right. Now just look at what is happening around the world, lets just listen to what Muslims say. Now whats happening around the world? Well you said you lived in a Islamic country and you never faced any problem. Do you assume this for every Non Muslim living in Islamic countries? No one is more ignorant than you are? Yes China , Russia , and India committed atrocities against Muslims , but even then their population went up. What does it say.? Two things are clear: There was never a Genocide and There was no daily persecution. But come to Islamic countries. Take Egypt, Iran, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iraq and Turkey. Do you know the condition of minorities in these countries? In fact some of them simply disappeared. Take Pakistan. In Pakistan Hindus and Sikh population used to be around 15% in 1951. Now it is less than 2%. In fact population of religious minorities in all Islamic is rapidly coming down. Treated in the worst manner they have two choices either to convert or leave.Only Islamic countries have this characterestic. What is the best way to believe? Check numbers , right. So go and check facts.I always feel it is suffice to show that Islam is a barbaric religion. After all it is Islam those people follow. Ask yourselves why only in Islamic countries this problem exists. So don't shit around here with out knowing basic things. 

  66. Moooo

    "Well you said you lived in a Islamic country and you never faced any problem." I do and so do many minorities in my country. Think before write, Prottier. Ignoring facts can make your image bad.

  67. proudchristian

    "Only by looking at a much broader picture can you understand Islam."

    Apparently he believes muhammad is not a prophet of God but goes to tell you can understand islam by looking at a bigger photo. I also listened about another western leftist talking of the quran being an "exciting book with some enlightening insights". Another one in a British perliament praising Hamas evils as "freedom fighters deserving his acknowledgement".

    Can anyone see the similarity between islamists and western leftists? The simple answer is that both groups are evil, period. See how this guy use some evil tactic commonly used by islamists, you should "broader view" of islam. Rottier looked broadly at islam yet still dont believe in muhammad to be a prophet but preaching that still islam is worthy. Something similar to Buccaile preaching scientific quran but unwilling to convert in islam himself.

    Just evil on a rampage!

  68. continuum1

    Okay, I give up, your argument makes much more sense now that I see it so clearly. There simply weren’t any non-pregnant, child-bearing women in Arabia at the time. Thank you for setting me straight.

    What makes you think that this does NOT include immature girls? I have already provided number of Islamic commentators who all confirm pedophilia above.

    You are talking about other classes of women. Even if we assume it can include such women, it DOES NOT preclude immature girls.

    Another commentary quouted again for you.

    islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=65

    *13 They may not have menstruated as yet either because of young age, or delayed menstrual discharge as it happens in the case of some women, or because of no discharge at aII throughout life which, though rare, may also be the case. In any case, the waiting-period of such a woman is the same as of the woman, who has stopped menstruation, that is three months from the time divorce was pronounced.
    Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Qur'an the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consumation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also pemssible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur'an has held as permissible.
    The girl who is divorced in the state when she has not yet menstruated and then she starts having the menses during the waiting-period, will reckon her waiting-period from the same mentruation and her waiting-period will be reckoned just like the woman who menstruates regularly.

  69. Anti-Jihad

    "Why do you find it peculiar that I would mention Russia and China? Russia has a long history of fighting with Muslims. Chechen itself is a dirty word. I noticed you did not find it ironic that I also named an Islamic country, Uzbekistan for persecuting Muslims."

    The reason why I mention the 2 countries is 2-fold: a) you grew up in a blue-collared family (as did I, if that helps) so by the way you defend Islam, I would naturally think you espouse the egalitarian ideals of communism. b) Russia and China have a natural affinity with Muslims (both countries are ardent defenders of Muslim states like Pakistan and Iran) so as to amalgamate more countries into their anti-Western bandwagoning coalition.

    "Again, while I am bored writing this, my point is that not all Muslims want to fight a jihad, in fact most do not. Most Muslims in the world admire the west, which is why they migrate their in great numbers."

    It is strange how a people that brands the West as colonialists would now suddenly do an about-turn and then admire them. But anyhow, even if they did admire the West, why they do not try to make their country great in their own countries? They do know how to use the Internet, yes? And then you talk about fighting for jihad, well anybody with even an elementary understanding of Islam would know that Muslims believe Islam is the only true religion in the world, the Qu'ran is the word of God (hence, why you can't reform it) and why in countries where Muslims are in the majority, religious freedoms virtually disappear.

    "That said, I am not oblivious to the fact that there are some Muslims that hold similar views of their faith as posters to this board and we need to do a better job of preventing this from happening. But simply condemning 1.2 billion people is not at all helpful and not practical and if the goal is to understand the terrorist mindset in order to help defeat terrorism."

    As many people will tell you on this website, nobody is condemning Muslims they are condemning Islam which has turned Muslims into victims of such a blood-thirsty religion. And if you are implying that the radicalization of Muslims can be ascribed to people like Ali Sina who are willing to defend the ideals of Western civilization, if you could tell us what rule is out there that is stopping us from defending the ideals of the West.

  70. continuum1

    Most scholars interpret sura 65:4 not as immature but as not pregnant,

    Mr. Harry Prottier,

    I am still waiting for your answer.

    Who are these so called scholars? Can you list them and give their translations?

    Show me a translation which says "not pregnant"? You do not know Arabic, yet you make statements on how it should be translated.

  71. continuum1

    I have a doubt, that this JAH or HAJ may be this prottier guy.

    and one of them refers to those women who have no course (not menopause), maybe because of some physiological reasons.

    It may be because of being too young and immature. After all, several hadiths and modern/traditional Islamic commentators confirm it is talking about pedophilia.

    Sahih Bukhari

    sunnipath.com/library/Hadith/H0002P0071.aspx

    XXXVI. "In the case of those of your wives who are past the age of menstruation, if you have any doubt, their waiting-period should be three months." (65:4)

    Mujahid said, "If you do not know whether they menstruate or not, in the case of those who have ceased menstruating and those who have not yet menstruated, "their waiting-period should be three months." (65:4)

    sunnipath.com/library/Hadith/H0002P0070.aspx

    XXXIX. A man giving his young children in marriage

    By the words of Allah, "that also applies to those who have not yet menstruated" (65:4) and He made the 'idda of a girl before puberty three months.

    4840. It is related from 'A'isha that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, married her when she was six years old and consummated it when she was nine, and she was his wife for nine years.

  72. prottier

    Anti-Jihad Says:

    No not racism Dr. Rottier, but pedophilia. Can I please so kindly as to remind you of what you said in your e-mail to Ali Sina, in which you said: “You accuse Muhammad of pedophilia but what criteria are you using? I’m sure you will want to chalk this up to moral or situational relevance but it is true that in 7th century Arabia a man’s prominence was directly associated with the number of wives as well as their youth and virginity.”

    This is true, but you chanced the subject to racism. My point to Mr. Sina is that what is in the Hadith need not be taken literally. Like Bible stories, both the Qur'an and especially the Hadith would exaggerate.

    Now if this is not situational ethics/cultural relativism, then I’m not sure what you call it. But now, allow me to refine my question to ask you not just about the Jim-Crow laws, but about black slavery in general: what was so wrong about slavery in Southern-America during the 19th century when “it is true that a man’s prominence was directly associated with the number of black slaves he had?”

    There was nothing wrong with this and if I was a slavery historian I would be suspicious about some people's account of the number of slaves they owned. Not unlike Gogol's Dead Souls, where the main character purchases dead serfs to make himself seem more prominant than he was so he would be suitable to marry a certain girl.

    Giving perspective is necessarily an act of subjectivity and require compromises in which you condone certain causes behind certain events in certain periods of history at the expense of exaggerating others.

    This is true, I assure you I am not trying to skew the picture but by attacking Muhammad, a 7th century figure who should be credited with unifying a group of unruly, warring tribes, based on Hadith literature and then projecting this as murder, rape and theft on all the Muslims of today seems rather absurd to me.

    He is merely giving his perspective on Islam, yes? What makes his perspective more deficient than yours? Also, you are aware of the fact that the fundamentalist/reformist distinction people make about Islam is spurious given how Islam has never undergone a reformation on the same scale and scope as that of the Christian reformation?

    Perspective and opinion is fine, as long as you have an open mind. Again, painting 1.2 billion Muslims with the same brush is dishonest and uninformed. Saying the people of Saudi Arabia represent 'real' Islam is crazy. As to reform, Islam underwent sequential and small reformations instead of one large reformation like Christianity. There is not hierarchy in Islam, had there been there would have been a reformation by now, but since there is no 'church' to reform, Muslim scholars and reformers constantly adapt to new changes by reinterpreting the sources of law. This is why you can have such extreme differences in Muslim societies from a secular Turkey and Egypt (Turkey is semi-democratic) to a autocratic Saudi Arabia to despotic secular regimes like Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan and religious states like Iran, although there is a huge youth movement there that wants reform. Islam justifies it all, it is just different interpretations of it.

    How are “human rights, elections and progress” part and parcel of Islam if Muslims define themselves in opposition to the Crusades (and, by extension, Western Civilization)?

    Why are the crusades indicative of Western Civilization? Many Muslim reformers have fought for human rights. My point was that I have read the writings of 100s of modernist Muslims in Central Asia and throughout the Islamic world who sought to change what Islam was and condemned traditionalists as being un-Islamic in their reading of the Qur'an and Hadith. A good collection in English of these voices is Modernist Islam by Charles Kurzman.

    How are these institutions of democratic governance part and parcel of Islam if they are seen as the constitutive parts for the formative whole of America’s grand strategy of imperialism in the Middle East? And last but not least, How are they part and parcel of Islam when religious minorities are persecuted in places like Indonesia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. on a daily basis?

    Again, you are looking only from the perspective of radical Muslims.

    If there are many other branches of Islam, why these branches do not protest the bombings of 9/11? Why they do not comdemn the massacre of the Iran-iraq War, when the Sunni-Shia religiously motivated war was responsible for the deaths of over 1 million people? Why they did not condemn Saddam hussein (by the way, I was not a support of the Iraq War) when he massacre the Kurds and the Sunni minority? How to explain his strange Muslim-on-Muslim violence phenomenon?

    Practically every important Mufti in the Muslim world condemned terrorism after 9/11. As I mentioned earlier, it wasn't necessarily because of personal belief but rather they were ordered to by the state in which they resided. But bin Laden condemns Saudi Arabia's conservative ulema because they protect the royal family with fatwas.

    You are missing the point. The root of Islamic militancy is Islam, ergo the solution is to eradicate Islam.

    This is exactly my point–it is impossible to eradicate Islam, believe me the Soviets tried hard to eradicate Islam in territory they controlled and they could not do so. How do you believe we eradicate Islam? Kill all 1.2 billion Muslims.

  73. Kinana

    Thank you for your reply.

    It seems you want a debate about Islam without Islamic sources. I am not sure that that is possible. If you only look at how the sources (Qur'an, hadith, Sira) were interpreted down through Islamic centuries you can really pick and choose. That goes with any belief system. So if you only look at the adherents of any belief system you will not necessarily understand that belief system at all!

    You mention the Qur'an and hadith and the four main schools and then throw them out with the bath water when they reveal what Islam is about and what it encourages and teaches.

    Now you say that you want to debate or discuss how those sources were interpreted. How do you know that your interpreters are interpreting Islam correctly? I am confused.

    You are in a conundrum. Either you rely on the sources to reveal the teachings of Islam or you do not. If you do not, you shift the discussion to not what Islam is about but what particular Muslims say Islam is about. And here is the rub: they could be wrong. Also you must know that the sources permit and encourage Muslims to lie to infidels in order to defend and promote Islam.

    So do you want to discuss the history of Islam and how Muslims have lived their lives or do you want to discuss the teachings of Islam and what sort of behaviour and mind-set that Islam promotes and encourages? But note that these are two different things. Islam is not an esoteric religion, it is a revealed religion and it is revealed in the sources (Qur'an, hadith, Sira) and the Sharia as laid out, like you said, in the four main schools. And these sources are accessible to understanding and does not require one to be a Muslim to read and understand them.

    I look forward to some clarification as to what you really want to talk about!

    Thanks

  74. Kinana

    Dear Mr Pottier,
    My above comment it directed to you. I have not read all the correspondence since your initial reply to me. If you have answered my questions above then just indicate where your reply is. Apologies for mis-spelling your name in my first posting.
    Thanks

  75. Kinana

    Yikes i did it again!
    Mr Prottier!!
    now it is right!

  76. Marie

    prottier wrote:

    Why not look at the Jewish zealots and the actions of radical settlers in Palestine who wish to force Palestinians out of their home of kill them? (ethnic cleansing anyone–and yes I know about the Arab atrocities in Darfur and wish that idiocy would stop as well.)

    What ethnic cleansing of the Arabs? The Arabs are allowed to obtain Israeli citizenship.

    r the Spanish reconquista–in 1492 the Spanish forcibly converted the Jews and Muslims of Spain then put them on a ship to sail across the straight to North Africa, when the ship was half way across the Spanish sunk the ship, killing all on board.

    Number 1: Those Muslims were descendents of the people who invaded Spain. There invaders and they were not Spanish citizens. Number 2: What about the hundreds of Spanish Christians and Jews who were enslaved and killed by the Muslims in Muslim occupied Spain. Number 3: The Spanish were trying to liberate the people from under Muslim occupation for years, long before the Spanish King and Queen came along.

    Just as Spanish Conquistadors justified their pillage of the New World as God’s blessing and forcibly converted the natives they found (until the Church ruled that converted Christians could not be slaves, then the Conquistadors were not so quick to convert). The gold and wealth taken from the New World was an earthly reward from God. Now I do not think Catholics or even Spanish Catholics think this today, but this is how they interpreted their Christian faith in the 15-16th centuries. Even more gruesome was their subjugation of the Netherlands in the 17th century in the name of religion. All religions have horrible scars, what I am saying about Islam is you need to look at how its leaders have explained different situations whether it is in power or out.

    Sorry but what happened in Latin America had more to do with Mercantilisim then Christianity and most of the atrocities was instigated by adventurers and mercantilist types.

    As for the missionaries and in the 16th century there were debates in Spain about whether what was going on in Latin America was Christian. Also there were major defenders of the indians who insisted they should not be exploited, one of them was Bartolome de Las Casas. He and other Roman Catholic opposed what was going on in Latin America.

    In regards to religions having their scars, yes they do have their scars, but how many of these religions used their holy books to justified violence committed against nonbelievers?

  77. Marie

    Northern Bear wrote:

    But so many people come to this site like you do that it’s extremely frustrating to listen to your uninformed ranting, and the expectation to be taken seriously!

    You think that what been leveled at you is bad?! You should go back into the archives and see what the Muslim apologists that used to post here had to say? It’s an eye-opening introduction evil.

    Agree.

  78. Marie

    continuum wrote:

    My point, that why do you take the Hadith at face value? Do you or most Christians or Jews take the Bible at face value? Of course not–these are stories meant to make a point.

    You are comparing apples and oranges. One is about 950 year old man tale and another is about pedophilia. Both are not equivalent.

    I firmly agree with continuum on this one.

    By the way the Bible is full of metaphors and allugorical messages so it is hard to determine whether Noah was 950 years old when he died, but as for the Quran, it's message is in a literal context.

  79. continuum1

    Hmmm,

    Prottier has disappeared. So much for his Ph.D. in history….

    Let us see if he can answer some simple questions.

    Mr. Prottier can you pick up the verse 65:4 and explain to us the part where it talks about "not pregnant" women?

    Can you explain why it cannot refer to immature girls and why all traditional and modern commentators, Sahih Hadiths are wrong?

    Why should any sane person assume your or some "anonymous scholars" interpretation is true while all others are wrong?

    You said it is ridiculous to claim Islam teaches pedophilia despite the fact that all traditional scholars and Sahih Hadiths confirm the same. So please tell us how one can interpret quran without knowing the context? Why should one interpretation be given precedence over other?

  80. prottier

    Dear Kinana,

    I don't throw out the sources with the bath water, what I specifically say is that the sources of any religion are elusive. The Bible, the Torah, the Gita, and the Qur'an all contradict themselves so as a historian I do not take them at face value. I also do not cherry pick history I look at the overall picture and stand by my claim that Islam is not represented in history the way it is on this site. There are many voices. When the Abbasid caliph lost power and became a symbol did this end Islam? It happened within 200 years of the rise of Islam yet the religion remained. When colonization took over practically the whole of the Muslim world did violent jihad strike? No, a few local skirmishes but no world wide jihad. Most interestingly is Westerners have historically looked at Islam as fanatical and powerful. In WWI the Germans had the Ottoman Sultan who also had the title Caliph issue a fatwa to all the Muslims of India and Russia to rise and fight the jihad for their caliph. Nothing happened. The British took over the hijaz, which contains the holy sites of Saudi Arabia, and through a strange geneology 'discovered' that the Sherif of Mecca was a direct descendant of the last Abbasid Caliph (who the Mongols killed in 1258). They had the Sherif pronounced Caliph and he too issued a fatwa, calling for all the Muslims of the Ottoman Empire to rise up and fight the usurper Sultan, because he was an infidel. Again nothing happened. After the 1979 Iranian revolution and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the CIA had Qur'ans and radical jihadist literature printed in the native languages of Central Asia and slipped them into the region through Afghanistan. Everyone, including the most prominent Western scholars of Russian Central Asia at the time believed that an uprising would be imminent. None came. In fact the Soviets used a large portion of Central Asians in their invading army to present themselves as friendly co-religionists, this didn't work either. My point, western ideas of Islamic fanaticism have always fallen short. Islam, like nationalism, or any other religion, can be used to legitimate radicals but it certainly doesn't mean that all Muslims are jihadists or ignorant and that is what this site states.

  81. prottier

    continuum1

    I've not disappeared just busy, but this is likely my last post for today. I plan on reading Dr. Sina's book (what is your PhD in and where did you earn it from–just curious) tonight and if I have time will continue the conversation tomorrow. I do like how the initial tone has changed. I don't feel I am being shouted at, called ignorant and stupid, although some of you still do, and I honestly respect all informed opinions. I have no problem stating I am wrong when I am, and if I can not provide continuum with names of scholars and opinions on this one verse of the Qur'an, I will concede the point. It is not essential to my main argument, which is Islam is not a monolith. It is a religion that has been absorbed by many different cultures and therefore has many different meaning to its various adherents. I still say that the average individual would never put the two aforementioned verses together and state definitively that Islam promotes pedophilia. If it did promote pedophilia it would state: And Allah commands, take the pre-pubescent girls and have at it. Young virgins make Allah happy when they are deflowered….. Fortunately I have not seen this sura yet but perhaps after reading Dr. Sina's book I will find it and not have to play a game of the di Vinci code to figure out what the verse means.

  82. prottier

    Marie wrote:

    What ethnic cleansing of the Arabs? The Arabs are allowed to obtain Israeli citizenship.
    There are groups of Jewish settlers that believe all the land of ancient, pre-Babylonian Israel belongs to the Jews and no one else. I will look up their charter to show you that they wish to remove all non-Jews from greater Israel. Again, this is not government policy but simply the belief of the zealots.

    "Those Muslims were descendents of the people who invaded Spain. There invaders and they were not Spanish citizens. Number 2: What about the hundreds of Spanish Christians and Jews who were enslaved and killed by the Muslims in Muslim occupied Spain. Number 3: The Spanish were trying to liberate the people from under Muslim occupation for years, long before the Spanish King and Queen came along."

    Yes, the reconquista lasted for over 500 years. My point was that the kind Spanish deceitfully killed the last of the Jews and Moors after forcibly converting them to Christianity to ensure their entrance into heaven. Your post seem to condone the action, since these were Muslims who had conquered Spain in the 8th century and lived and intermarried with the population for hundreds of years, it was good that after torturing them, forcibly converting them to Catholicism that then you could drown them since it was their ancestors who had the audacity to invade Spain. I wonder if native Americans should be able to do this to Americans. After all we conquered them, settled their land, tried to kill them off, etc… and we were only here since the 16th century so surely they should round us up, torture, convert and kill Americans. Makes sense.

    "Sorry but what happened in Latin America had more to do with Mercantilisim then Christianity and most of the atrocities was instigated by adventurers and mercantilist types."

    Conquistadors were considered soldiers of Christ. They conquered in the name of Christianity. You are predating the advent of mercantilism by over a hundred years. Others needed colonies first before this occurred. And I did state that the Church did not like the idea of converted natives being treated so bad so those that ran the mines simply refused to allow missionaries to convert them–problem solved.

  83. prottier

    I am leaving for today. Thank you for the stimulating conversation. Whether you agree of disagree, debate and the exchange of ideas help you sharpen your own thoughts. I had no illusions that I would change anyone's mind. Once again, thank you.

  84. ibnsahr

    good to hear JAH in here sounds and still dumb

    #21 JAH

    "Have you ever studied the Quran from cover to cover and tried to understand it. Have you ever talked to some Muslim scholars. Have you ever asked them some questions about Islam. I guess, NO!"

    before you go from cover to cover….., do you know what exact means on the very first letters in quran "Allif Laam Meem", lucifer came on my dream, and tells me it means "Suck on this you Morron"

    Why you need to TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT, can't you just understand it by reading it.

    or you try to say can you "TRY TO HIDE YOUR GUILTY CONSIENCE"

    NO, i dont think i can get any better answer from scholar than from you, dont you all have same universal nonsense.

  85. continuum1

    I have no problem stating I am wrong when I am, and if I can not provide continuum with names of scholars and opinions on this one verse of the Qur’an, I will concede the point.

    That is good change in tone.

    It is not essential to my main argument, which is Islam is not a monolith. It is a religion that has been absorbed by many different cultures and therefore has many different meaning to its various adherents.

    This argument is meaningless to the question whether Muhammad is pedophile or not which was the original one.

    I would rather go with the earliest available interpretations and life history rather than some guys opinion. How other cultures interpret them is irrelevant to this issue. As a historian, with a Ph.D. in this field, you should know better.

    I still say that the average individual would never put the two aforementioned verses together and state definitively that Islam promotes pedophilia.

    Do you read my posts Prottier.

    For your information, I did NOT make that claim. It is made by Islamic scholars and accepted by many Muslim scholars. Otherwise why would an Islamic website publish such commentaries.

    Again please refer to the website.

    islamicstudies.info/?topic=quran

    islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=65

    please read it for yourselves. None of these are my own claims.

    If it did promote pedophilia it would state: And Allah commands, take the pre-pubescent girls and have at it. Young virgins make Allah happy when they are deflowered…..

    There is no rule that this has to be so as stated by you.

    Why does a writer of Quran have to follow your stated conclusions when writing it?

    He may approve pedophilia in the way he deems most apt for his society.

  86. continuum1

    and not have to play a game of the di Vinci code to figure out what the verse means.

    So please stop playing games and see for what it is. If all the quotes and references from Islamic scholars I provided does NOT convince you, you are not being objective and sticking your head in sand.

  87. Marie

    prottier wrote:

    Most Muslims in the world admire the west, which is why they migrate their in great numbers

    They come here for the wealth in and reality there are many Muslims who want to bring sharia law, segregate the sexes, and bring Islam to the west. Need an example look at Europe with a high percentage of Muslims committing rapes against nonmuslim women, rioting, forcing nonmuslim women to cover their heads, threatening and killing those who speak out against Islam, take advantage of the west's welfare system and overburden the taxpayers who are force to support these people, harass nonmuslims, riot, commit terrorists acts, and exc.

    why do you think the jihadists need to flee to Pakistan or Somalia? They had to get out of Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other places where they likely would have been executed by now.

    The terrorist are supported by Saudi oil money and the terrorist are trying to take over the Egyptian government.

  88. prottier

    You did state that Islam allows pedophilia "Again note that verse 33:49 and 65:4 from Quran gives directions for followers regarding divorce and incidentally it shows marrying underaged girls is allowed in Islam. This confirms Muhammad was indeed a pedophile, especially when Quran asserts in Muhammad you have good example." You were fine up to the point that you said underage marriage is allowed by inference, but when you say that this proves Muhammad to be a pedophile you lose all credibility. Again, where does it state that Muhammad had relations with pre-pubescent girls? Bring on the Hadith, Bukharis was codified over two hundred years after Muhammad. Great scholar, just saying Hadith is not exact and to over rely on it makes you look more like bin Laden than to any Muslim I know.

  89. prottier

    Marie,

    I don't disagree that individual Saudi's, by the way the most radical sect of Sunni Muslims, contribute their wealth to terrorists, and some organizations in Egypt also are fundamentalist based. But both governments frown on these groups because they are a direct threat to them! The reason these groups gain traction in Egypt and Arabia is largely because of repressive governments and no civil rights. If people got to choose, even if radical Islamist parties were elected they would quickly find out that running a state and running a terrorist operation were 2 different things and be forced to reform their platforms or ruin the state. The Taliban, with Pakistani(US) and Saudi money could not consolidate their power because too many people hated their rule. Once a civil society and true opposition parties are allowed to form the appeal to Islam will diminish. Tajikistan is a case in point. When outlawed the IRP became radicalized, when allowed to participate in elections it became much more secularized. Bush was right about one thing, we need to help spread democracy and that means being much firmer with our Saudi and Egyptian 'friends.'

  90. pathfinder

    Islam is a book to create "Organised Criminal lustful Gang". If you see Islamic countries are breeding like pigs. They dont have sexual descipline, dont use modern birth control techniques, while have no shame on using Guns, tanks, bombs which were not developed by Mohomet. They are now trying to get other deadlier bombs etc, so that they kill innocent people and get there so called "72 virgins". Mohomet copied initial good teachnings from prevailing christians, jews, Zorasarianism, Hindus and twisted them so that he can benefit from them. Why he choose "circumcision" as he saw with jews. Now any muslim can he tell why its needed? If so called "Allah" is so all powerful, mighty why he make child born with already done circumcised? especially to devout muslims. He was a sadist who only cared about sex and nothing else. Also if he was so close to god, why he hasn't choosed and written about succesion plan and later on bloody wars resulted and this also finished his wretched progeny. In odern times I can think of Mao as somewhat similar to him but lesser evil than him, he also wrote lot of good things killed millions and because of him not only chinese people, but North Korea, Burma etc are suffering. In hall of Shame of the world first is Mohomet, then Mao, then Hitler, then Lenin.

  91. continuum1

    You were fine up to the point that you said underage marriage is allowed by inference, but when you say that this proves Muhammad to be a pedophile you lose all credibility.

    1. I thought you are done for the day. What happened?

    2. I did NOT say merely underage marriage…

    As per the islamic commentary given in the link below.

    islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=65

    Islam allows pedophilia (penetrating and consummating)…

    Commentary from above website:

    *13 They may not have menstruated as yet either because of young age, or delayed menstrual discharge as it happens in the case of some women, or because of no discharge at aII throughout life which, though rare, may also be the case. In any case, the waiting-period of such a woman is the same as of the woman, who has stopped menstruation, that is three months from the time divorce was pronounced.
    Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Qur'an the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consumation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also pemssible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur'an has held as permissible.
    The girl who is divorced in the state when she has not yet menstruated and then she starts having the menses during the waiting-period, will reckon her waiting-period from the same mentruation and her waiting-period will be reckoned just like the woman who menstruates regularly.

    Again, where does it state that Muhammad had relations with pre-pubescent girls? Bring on the Hadith, Bukharis was codified over two hundred years after Muhammad. Great scholar, just saying Hadith is not exact and to over rely on it makes you look more like bin Laden than to any Muslim I know.

    Hadiths may be two centuries after. However, Quran which is the work of Muhammad (or allah as you chose), approves pedophilia. This shows that Hadiths are Quran are in agreement with each other regarding this and increases the possibility that Muhammad is indeed a pedophile.

    I am no scholar, I depend on earliest available scholars' works. If you have any better argument come back.

  92. continuum1

    You were fine up to the point that you said underage marriage is allowed by inference, but when you say that this proves Muhammad to be a pedophile you lose all credibility.

    1. I thought you are done for the day. What happened?

    2. I did NOT say merely underage marriage…

    As per the islamic commentary given in the link below.

    islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=65

    Islam allows pedophilia (penetrating and consummating)…

    Commentary from above website:

    *13 They may not have menstruated as yet either because of young age, or delayed menstrual discharge as it happens in the case of some women, or because of no discharge at aII throughout life which, though rare, may also be the case. In any case, the waiting-period of such a woman is the same as of the woman, who has stopped menstruation, that is three months from the time divorce was pronounced.
    Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Qur'an the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consumation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also pemssible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur'an has held as permissible.
    The girl who is divorced in the state when she has not yet menstruated and then she starts having the menses during the waiting-period, will reckon her waiting-period from the same mentruation and her waiting-period will be reckoned just like the woman who menstruates regularly.

    Again, where does it state that Muhammad had relations with pre-pubescent girls? Bring on the Hadith, Bukharis was codified over two hundred years after Muhammad. Great scholar, just saying Hadith is not exact and to over rely on it makes you look more like bin Laden than to any Muslim I know.

    Hadiths may be two centuries after. However, Quran which is the work of Muhammad (or allah as you chose), approves pedophilia. This shows that Hadiths are Quran are in agreement with each other regarding this and increases the possibility that Muhammad is indeed a pedophile.

    I am no scholar, I depend on earliest available scholars' works. If you have any better argument come back.

  93. prottier

    a_comment Says:

    Sir, in the beheading videos we invariably hear the chants of allah hu akbar, the justification sent by the terrorists always quote the ayas of the koran which condemns non muslims. The koran is taken as the literal words of allah which orders killing of non muslims numerous times, and the hadiths as guidance from their prophet muham~mad, if you have better explaination I would like to hear.

    Even most terrorist do not interpret the Qur'an to mean that they must kill or convert non-Muslims. At the time the Qur'an was created Muhammad had his hands full fighting his old tribe the Quraish. The infidel, often found in the Qur'an refers to the polytheists of Arabia, not to Jews or Christians, designated as the Peoples of the Book. Remember Muhammad justified his religious legitimacy on the Jews and Christians, Islam was simply an extension of the Abrahamic faiths. When the conquests started the Muslims quickly conquered the Persian empire, which had Zoroastrianism as its major religion. The Muslims, outnumbered as always, quickly recognized this religion as being of a Book as well, even though it was not of the Abrahamic faith. Again, this was done for logistical reasons and not out of the goodness of anyone's heart. These were savage, nomadic conquests of major established empires, not unlike the 13th century Mongol invasions so I am not an apologist for Islam. Just a historian trying to show a wider picture than the one this site shows.

    The terrorist usually say God is Great, blah, blah, blah and then kill the innocent soul. It is repulsive but I can paste several passages of the Qur'an here that condemn those who kill innocents. And the fatwas issued by the major muftis against terrorism use these passages as their base as well as they use the passages referring to suicide as strictly prohibited in Islam.

  94. Rocky

    "Islam is the only religion that wants to conquer the world by Jihad and terrorism", that's the point, we all have to take time to debate this ridiculous superstition because of the danger some of its believers pose to our lives and liberties. Usually, the ravings of this 7th century bandit and his supporters would be ignored.

  95. Northern Bear

    "But if this was accepted practice in the 7th century he isn’t covering up is he? And why did he take 3 years to rape Aisha, he married her when she was 6 but didn’t consummate until she was 9? Maybe he was into older girls."- Prottier

    Well this guy just lost all credibility. Defending and rationalizing the rape of a child?! Shame on you!

  96. Marie

    Northern Bear Wrote:

    Well this guy just lost all credibility. Defending and rationalizing the rape of a child?! Shame on you!

    Agree.

  97. Kinana

    Mr Rottier
    (I got your name right this time!)

    Thank you for your clarification.

    From what you say, the debate is still-born from the start. Mr Sina is speaking of Islam as understood through the original sources (including the four schools) and you are speaking of Islam as practiced by Muslims down through history.

    Your real challenge to Mr Sina is that he does not understand Islam because as you tell him: ‘Only by looking at a much broader picture can you understand Islam.’

    I ask you again how do you think that the broader picture is a more accurate one than the one that Mr Sina looks at? He is not ignorant of the broader picture, the history of Islam and of the practice of Muslims since the 7th century. And he knows the Islamic sources better than you do, as you admit, so it would seem that he has a better grasp of the broader picture than you do.

    Many Muslims actually believe the accuracy of the sources you seem to disparage. It does not matter whether those sources are historically trust worthy according to your criteria of modern scholarship.

    I am thinking now that the view of Islam that Mr Sina portrays can only perhaps be validated in your mind if there is a thread of people since Mohammed’s time who have lived out the teachings found in the sources. Right?

    To point out that Muslims throughout history have NOT lived out those teachings does not invalidate those teachings. Adherents and believers in any belief system vary in their devotion and commitment since the founding of their particular belief system. This is true for all belief systems and so with Muslims you will see a variety of lived out responses.

    The Islamic sources encourage and promote certain behaviour, and it does not invalidate those sources as source for the truth of Islam, to point to certain Muslims and observe a less than fervent attachment to those teachings etc. It seems to me a non sequitur to say that Islam is this and this and that and that because Mr Muslim man here and there at different points in time have acted contrary to those teachings.

    Mr Sina summed up this point by saying: ‘Then to the extent that it does [contradict the Quran], it is not Islam.’

    You seem to be saying that Islam is what Muslims say it is. Any Muslim, all 1 billion Muslims! right? Your way of understanding Islam then is really quite a challenge, to say the least!

    If I misunderstand you please let me know.

    Thanks

  98. pathfinder

    Point8: Kamakaze attack is nowhere written in Buddhist religion and they are the most peaceful religion and muslims should be ashamed to mention there religion to them. At that time they have totally become fascist which is an idelogy similar to Islam and commanders and soldiers do become overzeolous and become ready to laid down there life in War. In Irag -iran war nobody tells that is Jihad , it was war. We have to understand killing of innocents and killing in combat wars.
    Point9 : Israel is the only sovereign democratic country in the middle east while rest are suffering from sharia and dictator. Now tell me if somebody is hitting your house with bullets and have already killed your father and is continously throwing bomb , etc and you have a gun and you know the direction from where its coming and if you dont nuatralise him quickly he will kill your rest of the family, what will you do, you will shoot at that direction and that fellow has tied 2 children and used them as human shield and unfortunately the children also got killed with him. Same story, they are firing from civilian area , now tell me why the terorist are not working to make gaza a modle peace place , no there are using launching point from civilian area this is called "assemetric warefare" and mohomet brought this thing to world when instead of attacking soliers he attacked un armed civilians like lot of poets whom he killed and "Banu Quraiza" tribes. That shameful man had sex with traumatised and victim jew girl whose father and brother he slaughtered.
    Point 10: There is no so called hindu or christian or buddhist terrrorism based on religion. The organisation were Maoist or Naxalites who have diabolicale problem like Muslims and think that by killing rich people they will distribute wealth and create a communist state. In kashmir Muslims from pakistan started coming to kashmir and they first targeted hindus and the muslim shameless neighbors told, that in the kashmir valley only muslims will stay" they killed, raped and looted hundreds of thousands of hindus in kashmir and some 4,00,000 hindus were forced to leave there ancestral houses. There are two muslims there shia and sunni. Shia infact are diehard hater of pakistanis, they helped India in bringing order. Then Pakistan terrorist started supplying some radical sunni people with guns etc and then a long and bloody battle started with Jihadists and indian army. Now muslims especially pakistan have a twisted brain and eye and they see everything differently. These guys gave to China a huge landmass in Kashmir as gift as they fear there ruthlessness and to get nuclear bombs. Pakistan and North Indians are same in ethnicity but due to Islam they Killed some 10,00, 000 hindus and sikhs in 1947 to get pakistan while hindus, buddhists etc pleaded with them not to divide. Now Pakistan is a terrorist state and harbour all criminals and its the biggest source of revenue along with drug trade. While India is developing fast due to Hindu and other non- muslim people , pakistan is using terrorist attack on various places in India to disrupt its development. Due to Islamic nature of pakistan they instead of taking help from India in science and technology is attacking civilians with bombs for "72 virgins". Muslims in India attacked and killed some 100's of peaceful hindu pilgrims in Godhra station a muslim majority area and obviously the relatives and persons known to them started attacking godhra muslims, seeing this other muslims started rioting but this time hindus who were in majority also attacked. some 750 muslims and 250 hindus as per official record killed. In fact all through out police tried there best and some 100 police man also died, can you immagine that even 1 policemen in Muslim country will die for non muslims. You muslim when in majority give non-muslim dhimmi status while Christian , hindus give you better status than majority non-muslim status.pakistan was 25 % hindu when partisioned what happened to them they are now 1%? while during partistion in India muslim were 10 %, now 16 %. Muslim pakistan killed some 30,00, 000 helpless bengali hindus and raped some 4,00,000 Hindu women, they gauged the eyes, cut the limbs, cut the breasts of hindu women in 1971, some 8 million hindus were roaming around in bangladesh and India along with thank god Indian Army came and saved them.
    While knowing all these every so called kaffir is now ready and will fight with muslims for saving humanity and saving there life. Also you have to know India's politics just like democrats who think criminal muslims will forget Jihad if appeased India has congress who tries to appease same thing and capture some members of protectionist growth and blame for minor attacks and get media hype and get muslim votes. Muslims in India get special benefits , marry 4 women, produce 10-15 children and say we are poor, while hardworking Hindus, sikhs, christians marry one women, produce 1-3 max children pay taxes so that those jihadists can enjoy there sex life. Same is in western countries, they take maximum welfare benefits. The muslims are playing with too much christian , hindus etc tolerance and the day is not far enough one more major terrorist attack and that tolerance dam will be broken and Islam will be history.

  99. Ali Sina

    .
    Mr. Rottier wrote, "Just as I am against the notion that Islam is incapable of reform because it has reformed itself many times."

    This reminds me of someone who said, quitting smoking is very easy. I have done it a hundred times.

    The question that begs an answer is, if reforming Islam was possible why it needed to be reform so many times? There was only one reform in Christianity, one reform In Judaism and Hiduism is also undergoing one reform.

    The truth is that we never had any reform in Islam in the way we understand reform. We had countless failed attempts to reform Islam.

    There is only one reform that succeeded and that is Wahabbism. See this article. http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/04/19/the-illusi

  100. Marie

    Rottier wrote:

    I’m sure you will want to chalk this up to moral or situational relevance but it is true that in 7th century Arabia a man’s prominence was directly associated with the number of wives as well as their youth and virginity.Like a CEO, athlete or entertainer, they keep score by how much money they make–this is what American society in the 20-21st centuries most values. So we look up to Bill Gates, Brett Favre, Michael Phelps, etc… and complain little that the obscene amounts of money they make could easily feed the hungary and send medicine to the sick.

    That's the most rediculous argument I ever heard to excuse what Muhammed did. Number 1: If Muhammed was a prophet of God then he would not need to do such things because his relationship with God would have given him such a high status in Arabian society. There was no need for him to do these things. I don't think the Arabs married off their 6 year old daughters to old men, because in that society there was only childhood and adulthood. From what I understand of society's such as Arabia a young lady is considered an adult when they start menstruating and that's when the parents start thinking of who should their daughters marry.

    Your logic contradicts what Muslims in countries such as Afghanistan, Egypt, and exc. do which is marry their daughters off at ages 7 and 8. Muslims who marry their daughters off at such a young age believe it is holy because the prophet Muhammed married a 6 year old.

    Also why would a prophet need to keep score of his wealth by marrying many women and a child? That's rediculous. A prophet is suppose to be someone of humble character and humble people do not keep score to show off their prominence.

    It is likely that in centuries to come American greed will be frowned upon as immoral. So my point is that you must separate the cultural attributes from the religious ones.

    Americans are not greedy and we don't view greed as something good. Americans give a lot of money to charities every year and a lot of foreign aid to poor countries.

    Where is your conscience Mr. PhD, University Lecturer?

    Just because the guy has a PH.D does not automatically mean he has a conscience or a heart.

    Your reasoning is really mind boggling. But if you could think better, you would not be writing to me defending Islam.

    That's what they teach at American Colleges and Universities. Unfortunately they pass this kind of reasoning to their students.

    Since the 19th century Modernist Muslims have wanted to be able to modernize their societies by ridding their societies of this narrow view of Islam. They saw nothing wrong with women’s rights, co-existence with other religions, etc… Even the Ottoman Empire made provisions that accorded equal status to non-Muslims in the 19th century (Russia still had the Pale of Settlement until 1905–thereby controlling where Jews could live and what jobs, education they could obtain).

    Blah blah blah blah blah. Tell me prottier were these people successful in their attempts or were they killed off by their fellow Muslims.

    Only by looking at a much broader picture can you understand Islam. You seem to look directly and literally at a few sources and paint the whole religion with this view. It is simply not true.

    Dude Ali Sina is an exmuslim and was raised in a Muslim country, whereas you only teach Islamic history.

  101. Marie

    Ali Sina wrote:

    The question that begs an answer is, if reforming Islam was possible why it needed to be reform so many times?

    Because Islam can't be reformed.

  102. prottier

    Marie,

    I see that you have trouble with analogies, you focus on the comparison and not the meaning so I will refrain from using one. (Although you didn't seem to mind Dr. Sina's analogy about Islam somehow anally raping me:-)) Anyway, the Qur'an does not write of Muhammad's marriage–my analogy was based on the fact that his followers wanted to heighten respect for him so they likely exaggerated. In any case I am through talking of Muhammad's alleged pedophilia, all I can definitively say is that no court of law would be able to persecute him based on the evidence anyone on this board has presented and this is why most historians and scholars of Islam do not accuse him of pedophilia.

    Point 2, yes, the reformers that I speak of did indeed find ways to win. It wasn't their co-coreligionists that killed them, not that the ulema didn't want to, since these guys really gave it to them–Fitrat was down right brilliant in lambasting the traditional ulema of Bukhara. After the Russian civil war these Muslims became Muslim National Communists and reformed Islam, introducing many reforms including the unveiling of women, education for women, the total reform of religious education to get rid of blind adherence to taqlid, etc… It wasn't the Muslims that killed them, it was Stalin who in the 1930s decided he didn't need anyone who helped him rise to power anymore and killed all the reformers between 1935-7.

    As for the broader picture, tell me, what religion looks exclusively at its religious sources and tries to apply them fully to the modern world without any attempt to account for the modern world? Do Christians always love their neighbors and forgive any transgression? If so why do Christian nations need militaries–the US spend in excess of the next highest spending 12 nations combined. Do Jews wish the first born sons of non-Jews to die on passover? Is eating shellfish really an abomination? So by seeing how different cultures integrated Islam is most telling. Most Muslims reject al-Qaida and its tactics and use these same sources to dismantle their arguments. The reformers I study did the same thing. They crush Hanifi doctrine by using Hanifi's writings to show how various commentators have corrupted Islam and the true meaning of the faith.

  103. proudkafir

    As per Rottier
    Islam is good and peaceful religion.
    The prophet married ayesha and got to know her at the age of 9 and he finds it absolutely a pious act.
    He also finds nothing wrong in beheadings and killing by moslems as per allah's commands.
    Yes. be careful.Dont let your boys and girls any where near.Any one who loves a pedophile and praises him sky high, I have serious doubts.

  104. Marie

    prottier wrote:

    Anyway, the Qur’an does not write of Muhammad’s marriage–my analogy was based on the fact that his followers wanted to heighten respect for him so they likely exaggerated

    Oh really? Prove it!

    Point 2, yes, the reformers that I speak of did indeed find ways to win. It wasn’t their co-coreligionists that killed them, not that the ulema didn’t want to, since these guys really gave it to them–Fitrat was down right brilliant in lambasting the traditional ulema of Bukhara. After the Russian civil war these Muslims became Muslim National Communists and reformed Islam, introducing many reforms including the unveiling of women, education for women, the total reform of religious education to get rid of blind adherence to taqlid, etc… It wasn’t the Muslims that killed them, it was Stalin who in the 1930s decided he didn’t need anyone who helped him rise to power anymore and killed all the reformers between 1935-7.

    Where did this take place?

    As for the broader picture, tell me, what religion looks exclusively at its religious sources and tries to apply them fully to the modern world without any attempt to account for the modern world? Do Christians always love their neighbors and forgive any transgression? If so why do Christian nations need militaries–the US spend in excess of the next highest spending 12 nations combined.

    Just because Jesus said love our enemies does not mean let them kill us. If finding a peaceful solution does not work, then we have every right to defend ourselves.

    Do Jews wish the first born sons of non-Jews to die on passover? Is eating shellfish really an abomination? So by seeing how different cultures integrated Islam is most telling. Most Muslims reject al-Qaida and its tactics and use these same sources to dismantle their arguments. The reformers I study did the same thing.

    Again where did this take place?

    They crush Hanifi doctrine by using Hanifi’s writings to show how various commentators have corrupted Islam and the true meaning of the faith.

    Oh really? Muslim commentators have corrupted Islam? Prove it!

  105. continuum1

    all I can definitively say is that no court of law would be able to persecute him

    It is highly doubtful you have a Ph.D.

    You do not know the difference between prosecute and persecute.It is unlikely this is a typo.

    based on the evidence anyone on this board has presented and this is why most historians and scholars of Islam do not accuse him of pedophilia.

    Islamic scholars do not accuse him is because it will be blasphemy.

    Most historians do not call him so because they will be dead in no time. Have you tried drawing a picture of Muhammad? Try it and see…much less call him a pedophile. I can call Mo as pedophile because nobody knows me.

  106. prottier

    Ali Sina wrote:

    This reminds me of someone who said, quitting smoking is very easy. I have done it a hundred times.

    "The question that begs an answer is, if reforming Islam was possible why it needed to be reform so many times? There was only one reform in Christianity, one reform In Judaism and Hiduism is also undergoing one reform."

    This would depend on how you define reform. I see so much about why doesn't Islam have a reformation? Well I would argue that Islam underwent a long, sustained period of reform from the mid-19th century to the early 20th century–really up until the outbreak of WWII. It was during this time that many reformers came to power and secular Muslim states began to flourish. IF there was no reform and no secular states in the Muslim world why do extremist groups appear to challenge these states? Again, if you read bin Laden's writings you will see how often he condemns many of the Saudi and other globally prominent Sunni clerics, not to mention is outright hatred of Shiites. If all Muslims read the Qur'an and Hadith literature as bin Laden and Dr. Sina, there would be no need to hide in Pakistan or Afghanistan or earlier in the Sudan, etc… He was condemned not just by the Saudi royal family but by practically every Saudi Mufti.

    "The truth is that we never had any reform in Islam in the way we understand reform. We had countless failed attempts to reform Islam."

    There were many failed results, even those I studied had set backs, but the truth is many did succeed.

    "There is only one reform that succeeded and that is Wahabbism. See this article. http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/04/19/the-illusi

    True, Wahabbism did succeed, but largely because the influential House of Said adopted this radical Hanbali school of thought.

  107. mratheist

    I don't believe this guy. He's been defending Mo from the outset and went as far as defending pedophilia. Why would anyone, other than muslim, wants to make up excuses for this kind of disgusting act? My bet is, he probably be a muslim and claim to be not when he realize he has no chance of wining.

  108. wagamama

    Pete Rottier, since a part of the discussion is pertaining to Jihad and crusades, I have done a bit of my own research on why the followers of semitic religions get divine permission to attack others to acquire as booty lands, women, and wealth. I assure you that such horrible divine permissions are not to be found in non-semitic/pagan religions. I felt Ali Sena addressed many of your questions quite well. IMHO, Muhammad borrowed many of the satanic verses from the scriptures of the two other semitic religions– Christianity and Judaism. I have summarized them for you here. Please do a comparative analysis and come to your own conclusion. FFI refused to publish this article. I have no regrets.

    PUNISHMENT FOR ADULTERY

    •The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment. (Quran: 24:2)
    •If there is a young woman, a virgin already engaged to be married, and a man meets her in the town and lies with her, you shall bring both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death, the young woman because she did not cry for help in the town and the man because he violated his neighbors’ wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)

    APOSTASY

    •They swear by Allah that they said nothing (wrong), yet they did say the word of disbelief, and did disbelieve after their Surrender (to Allah). And they purposed that which they could not attain, and they sought revenge only that Allah by His messenger should enrich them of His bounty. If they repent it will be better for them; and if they turn away, Allah will afflict them with a painful doom in the world and the Hereafter, and they have neither protecting friend nor helper in the earth. (Quran 9.74)

    •If anyone secretly entices you—even if it is your brother, your father’s son or- your mother’s son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend—saying, ‘Let us go and worship other gods’……you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Stone them to death for trying to turn you away from the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy 13:6-11)

    SPOILS OF WAR

    •They ask thee (O Muhammad) of the spoils of war. Say: The spoils of war belong to Allah and the messenger, so keep your duty to Allah, and adjust the matter of your difference, and obey Allah and His messenger, if ye are (true) believers.(Quran 8.1)
    •And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer (Quran 8.41)
    •When the Lord your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword. You may, however, take as your booty the women, the children, livestock, and everything else in the town, all its spoil. You may enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20: 13-14)

    DESTRUCTION OF PAGAN WORSHIP PLACES
    •Narrated Abdullah bin Masud: "Allah's Apostle entered Makkah (in the year of the Conquest) and there were three-hundred and sixty idols around the Ka'ba. He then started hitting them with a stick in his hand and say: 'Truth (i.e. Islam) has come and falsehood (disbelief) vanished. Truly falsehood (disbelief) is ever bound to vanish.' [Quran 17: 81] 'Truth has come and falsehood (Iblis) cannot create anything.' [Quran 34: 49]" [Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 244]
    •You must demolish completely all the places where the nations whom you are about to dispossess served their gods, on the mountain heights, on the hills, and under every leafy tree. Break down their altars, smash their pillars, burn their sacred poles with fire, and hew down the idols of their gods, and thus blot out their name from their places. You shall not worship the Lord your God in such ways. (Deuteronomy 12:2-4)

    SLAVERY

    •It is not for a believer to kill a believer unless (it be) by mistake. He who hath killed a believer by mistake must set free a believing slave, and pay the blood-money to the family of the slain, unless they remit it as a charity. (Quran 4.92)
    •When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again…. (Exodus 21:7-11)

    CRIMES AGAINST BABIES AND WOMEN
    •Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. (Sahih Bukhari 5.236) PLUS the killing of poetess Asma Bint Marwan [Ibn Sa`d's Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, translated by S. Moinul Haq, Volume 2, pages 30-31]
    •Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. (Hosea 13:16)
    •Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock (Psalms 137.9)

    RAIDS AND DESTRUCTION

    •How many a township have we destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, our terror came unto them. (Quran 7.4)
    •It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise. (Quran 8.67)
    •"I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Luke 19:26-27)
    •When you draw near to a town to fight against it, offer it terms of peace. If it accepts your terms of peace and surrenders to you, then all the people in it shall serve you in forced labor. If it does not submit to you peacefully, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it; and when the Lord your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword. You may, however, take as your booty the women, the children, livestock, and everything else in the town, all its spoil. You may enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you. Thus you shall treat all the towns that are very far from you, which are not towns of the nations here. (Deuteronomy 20:10-15)

    BLASPHEMY
    •The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the hereafter. (Quran 5.33)
    •Take the blasphemer outside the camp; and let all who were within hearing lay their hands on his head, and let the whole congregation stone him. And speak to the people of Israel, saying: Anyone who curses God shall bear the sin. One who blasphemes the name of the Lord shall be put to death; the whole congregation shall stone the blasphemer. Aliens as well as citizens, when they blaspheme the Name, shall be put to death. (Leviticus 24: 14-16)

    INCEST

    •Prophet Muhammad adopted Zaid as his son, who then married Zainab. So Zainab became Muhammad’s daughter-in-law. When Zaid divorced Zainab, Muhammad took the latter as his wife. Allah helped Muhammad by revealing the following verse (33.37): “After a term of married life with her husband, We permitted you to marry her so that it may hence be legitimate and morally blameless for a believer to marry the wife of his adopted son provided that wife has already been divorced. That is God's commandment which must be fulfilled.”

    •Abraham replied, "I said to myself, 'There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.' Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife. (Genesis 20:11-12).

  109. prottier

    continuum1,

    You really have an issue with me don't you. My PhD is from the Univ. of Wisconsin at Madision–the main flagship school in the UW system. I'm sorry, I was talking to my wife and posting at the same time and yes persecute was a typo, as you could clearly tell from the context I meant to say Prosecute (one letter difference–wasn't it you earlier that mistook immortal for immoral?) Anyway, back to my dubious PhD, it is in Central Asian, Russian and Islamic history, odd combination but I study the Muslims of Russia. I earned it in 2005, you can look up the dissertation by going to the library site at http://www.wisc.edu. What background do you have? What is your full name, city you live in, etc… I released all this information because I have nothing to hide–what about you?

  110. Ali Sina

    Mr. Rottier wrote: “Again, painting 1.2 billion Muslims with the same brush is dishonest and uninformed.”

    We are not painting 1.2 billion Muslims with the same brush. What you forget is that we come from these very people. Millions of people cheered for Hitler and loved that man, would you say all of them were aware of the depth of than man’s depravity? Most certainly not! However, they were influenced by his fiery talks and the hatred of the Jews in Germany had become epidemic.

    There is no doubt that the masses of Germans were ignorant. They supported something truly evil out of ignorance. Ignorance is the mother of all evil. The masses of Muslims are just as guilty as were the Germans in the time of Hitler.
    It is just as absurd to judge Nazism by observing the conduct of the average Germans of those years as it is judging Islam by observing the conduct of the average Muslims. Let us not confuse the disease with the patient. You can be HIV positive without showing any symptom of AIDS. But you are infected and AIDS can develop in you very fast. Likewise, all Muslims are infected with Islam. This does not mean all of them are terrorists. However it won’t take long to incite hate in them and transform them into killing beasts. Iranians prior to the Revolution were moderate Muslims. They changed into hate mongering rabid anti American and anti Israeli monsters overnight. Yes, overnight. All it takes is a life crisis and any sweet Muslim can turn into a mindless heartless terrorist. This is the recurrent story of virtually all the present day terrorists. Virtually all of them were once moderates.

    Islam is not what Muslims believe or wish it to be. Islam is what Muhammad taught in the Quran and hadith. Your wonderful experience with tolerant and modernized Muslims does not prove that Islam is tolerant and that it can be modernized.

    Yes we know that Muslims can be wonderful people. Believe it or not, we are them. However, we also know that under the influence of Islam Muslims can be dangerous. A good example is my own father. He is a wonderful man who never harmed anyone and helped anyone who asked for help. Once he saw the picture of the hanging of two young boys in a Persian language newspaper. He was clearly upset and angry. But when he learned they were hanged charged with homosexuality, he said, they deserved it. Why do you think a kind man like my father thinks homosexuals deserve to be hanged? Don’t you think his lifelong Islamic indoctrination had anything to do with it? Would he have thought the same way had he been grown up in the west as a Christian or an atheist? Of course not!

    I hope that I am making my point clear. Muslims are not evil naturally, but under the influence of an evil doctrine such as Islam they can do evil things.
    You argue that what we know of Islam from the Quran and the Hadith is not the real Islam. I am sorry, the only sources of the real Islam are these books, not what you or some “modernized” Muslims conjecture. Assuming the real Muhammad was the holiest man ever walked on earth. That is irrelevant, because the Muhammad that we can know is without a doubt the most despicable human ever born. It is the Muhammad that we know that counts not the one that might have been.

  111. prottier

    mratheist Says:
    May 29th, 2009 at 3:16 am

    "I don’t believe this guy. He’s been defending Mo from the outset and went as far as defending pedophilia. Why would anyone, other than muslim, wants to make up excuses for this kind of disgusting act? My bet is, he probably be a muslim and claim to be not when he realize he has no chance of wining."

    I guess the trolls come out at night–where in the hell did I defend pedophilia–only in some sick sob's brain could you possibly construe such an asinine thought. If you think I give a rat's ass about your ignorant opinion I don't Mr. Atheist. I am an agnostic and personally think all religions are quite ridiculous. But you jump in with nothing constructive to add to the discussion and have the balls to say I defend pedophilia? Keep hiding behind your lame log in. You guys don't get it. I never defended pedophilia or Muhammad–what I did is disagree with Dr. Sina over whether or not all Muslims are either crazy jihadists bent on world domination or too stupid to know that they are suppose to be. That's it–while I tried very patiently to explain Hadith literature, which is where all these claims are made, members of this list take it as Muhammad's very own words, a done deal. Continuum1 thinks that two unrelated suras are a secret code which proves Muhammad is a pedophile. To be honest more than likely by today's standards he is. I'm not saying that Aisha was 9 when he screwed her but he probably had carnal knowledge of girls as young as 13 or 14 since this was the norm. But I can also assure you that popes, kings, tsars and others in history could equally fall into that category. Slowly, over time, we in the west made laws to protect children. Why not work to do the same globally because there are Christian nations in Africa that continue to do female circumcision and 'sell' their very young daughters as well. I certainly don't condone that either.

    Now, if you have nothing constructive to say I suggest you F___ Off!

  112. Raisin Head

    #16 jAH
    jEWS CREATED MANY GOOD THINGS, IN FACT OVER 200 OF THEM. THE CELL PHONE YOU ALL USE TO BLOW UP PEOPLE WITH WAS MADE BY JEWS. tHE POLIO VACCINCE WAS CREATED BY Dr. Salk, a Jew I wish to thank him.

    Einstein was the creator of the means for the Bomb and I wish to thank him for giving it to America to defend it self from Japan.

    Who enslaved the African continent before the Europeans did. MUSLIMS. Islam enslaved black 700 years before they starting selling blacks to Europe.

    Allah is the DEVIL so he said in sura 3:54. Allah, and his alter-ego Muhammad called Africans ugly, nappy headed, pug nosed slaves and made black by Allah to be slaves to white people and then hellfire. Even the DEVIL was black and named Nabtail.

    Want more I can give it to you. Islam is the most racist inhumane cult ever. Jim Jones who claimed to love people made black do the worst jobs and he adopted black kids. Slick! Allah created women STUPID! Tabari 1:280! Black women are a sign of a bad disease Hadith 9:162.3.

    ALL MINIONS OF ISLAM ARE DEMONS AS ALLAH IS THE DEVIL.

  113. Ibn Kammuna

    Dr. Rottier
    I think you are taking about how Islam as a religion interacted with different cultures at different times, and how the locals "changed it", so to speak, to fit their times.
    Well, this happens to any religion. However in the case of Islam, we see a founder who is an evil man where all of Sina's claims are true. I know you don't accept that, but from a logical point of view, his arguments against Muhammad are valid. His claim that Islam cannot be reformed is still valid also. Islam per se insists on acting like a cult (us vs. them, Muslim vs kafir). It treats other belief systems as inferior. This is regardless of time and place. I grew up in the middle east. Islam was Islam, a religion and a state at the same time. This is what Islam is. To the degree you deviate from that, you are deviating from Islam by the same degree. There are components in Islam that are unique and eternal as far as Islam is concerned. You can say reform happens in Islam. This happens despite Islam not because of it. In Islam there is no separation of religion and state. This is Islam. The concepts of "Political Islam" and "Religious Islam" are a western invention really. They have nothing to do with Islam. Islam per se aims at taking control of all your life, whether a Muslim or not. It seeks to dominate. It does not treat all citizens of the state in the same manner. Islam is a fascistic ideology. It is a cult of supremacists. It is not like Christianity for instance. True, the church went very political at one time in its history, but the religion itself is not political. In fact, Jesus wanted nothing to do with politics and the state control. In contrast, Muhammad, in medina, grouped some criminals and started looting and attacking other tribes. Economics and state control were high on his agenda. He was an evil man.
    Islam as a belief system has to go. Reform means getting rid of Islam. To the degree the reform does not resemble true Islam, is the degree in which humanity can survive. To the degree a Muslim emulates Muhammad, is the degree to which he is an evil person.

  114. prottier

    96. proudkafir Says:
    May 29th, 2009 at 2:50 am

    As per Rottier
    "Islam is good and peaceful religion.
    The prophet married ayesha and got to know her at the age of 9 and he finds it absolutely a pious act.
    He also finds nothing wrong in beheadings and killing by moslems as per allah’s commands.
    Yes. be careful.Dont let your boys and girls any where near.Any one who loves a pedophile and praises him sky high, I have serious doubts."

    I am glad you are proud Kafir, because you certainly can't read very well. As I said to mratheist, I do not defend Islam, or Muhammad and never, ever, ever did I state that screwing a 9 year old is a pious act. What I said, if you could read and comprehend, is that I find it high specious (opps, I doubt you can understand the word) highly unlikely that the Hadith literature is accurate as to her age and I explained ad nauseum (opps again) really a lot of times why it is likely inaccurate. I am done with pedophilia–if this is the reason you think all Muslims are terrorist you need psychiatric help.

  115. Equestrian

    Mr. prottiers,

    If you are still interested in continuing this discussion, I encourage you take it to the forum. Create a thread on either the "Islam Questioned & Defended" or "The Quran and Hadith" boards and advance your case. This will make your argument accessible to a larger audience. I'm sure there will be many forum users that will be more than delighted to engage in a dialectic with you.

  116. Ibn Kammuna

    Jihadists flee those countries you are talking about not because those countries adhere to true Islam. Those countries collaborate with the west.
    For your information, Islamic religion books in all Arab and Muslim countries teach Muslim Kids to hate Christians, Jews, and others. It is part of the religion. They rely on verses from the Qur'an.
    The Jihadists view Saudi Arabia and other countries as controlled by regimes that do not adhere to Islam. And, they are correct. True Islam will give you a lot of people like Bin laden and company. In fact, there are many of them out there. This is what Islamic Education and Islam produces. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. Why do you think that is? Maybe because "Islam is Peace" as Bush used to say lying to the American people.
    Sure, let Islam reform itself so some people have jobs studying this. The simple fact is: Islam belongs to the dust bin of history. This is the best reform it can have.

  117. rajiv12

    Mr. Rottier, since you are looking for a broader picture of Islam I can suggest a site to you. It is myminddroppings.com and was started by an Indian who resides in the US. This gentleman was so anguished after the 26/11 bloodbath in Mumbai that he decided to put up this site. It is a small site with a few articles that may be of interest to you. Please feel free to visit the site when you can. Regards.

  118. prottier

    Marie,

    Your prove it points are really irritating. The evidence I put forth about this stupid pedophile topic is as follows. First a short history. After Muhammad's death in 632 actually running a state was very hard, especially when the various tribes, so recently united liked to fight a lot. So Abu Bakr used his Muslim army, to fight the Ridda wars, the wars of apostasy to slowly reunite the tribes. It took him his last two years of life. Omar, the next Caliph then decided the best thing to do with these nomadic fighters was to give them a common enemy and they went out of Arabia into the Persian empire and surprisingly conquered it quite easily, they also gobbled up a large chunk of the Byzantine Empire. Now these Bedouins didn't know how to rule the state so they largely used Byzantine and Persian administrators and the conquered peoples' bureaucracy. It was only after the rise of the Umayyads that the first Hadiths were recorded, but most were not done until after the Abbasid revolution. This is because the Abbasid state began to fragment early and new rulers emerged who needed to make decisions. Hadith was required to give useful guidance. The problem was that many emirs and sultans, had unauthentic Hadiths written to justify anything they did. When Bukhari, a Central Asian, began to sort through all the Hadiths he knew many were fraudulent, in fact the great majority were fraudulent. So over 200 years after the death of Muhammad Bukhari and 5 other noted scholars sat down and tried to 'divine' what was authentic and what was not. Oh, and guess what, at that time scholars worked for the emirs, the government paid them to do research. So as I have stated before, I am not a Muslim and do not read Hadith literature like it is fact. As a historian I interrogate every source I use to try to discern what I can realistically gleen from it. Hadith literature, while an important source of Islamic law is not a great historical source because of the dating and the fact that much of it was created to solve problems as they came up. (How convenient if we could see a problem and suddenly a Hadith appears that solves it.) As I stated earlier, I think the idea that Aisha was 6 when she married Muhammad and 9 when they had sex is much more a product of trying to glorify the virtues of purity and virginity. The Hadith collectors in no way were trying to slander their prophet–as I stated earlier it was a sign of respect. Like Brett Favre saying he was the highest paid quarterback in his prime (I grew up in Green Bay and that is all he wanted in his negotiation, because to him his football stats didn't matter, the real score was the paycheck). In thirty years, long after Favre has returned to Mississippi some Packers fan is going to say, well Favre use to make a 100 million dollars/year. Should we take this at face value? No, it was the ideal that great quarterbacks made a lot of money. He only made a measley $10 million a year.

    As for your inquiries as to where did the reform movement take place. At the turn of the 20th century it was widespread. Fitrat, who I mentioned wrote in Bukhara, a protectorate of Russia and in Turkestan, a Governor-Generalship of Russia. In particular I studied Alikhan Bokeikhanov, Akhmet Baitursunov and Mirzhaqyp Dulatov all from Kazakstan. They all abhorred the traditional ulema as fanatics and devils, yet these men were Muslims themselves. They did great things in their short time but alas Stalin killed them in 1937, I refer to them in my soon to be release book as the class of 1937. The movement was not limited to the Muslims of Russia though. In India, North Africa, the Ottoman Empire, and the Middle East there were many more reformers, all trying to change the way Islam was practiced. Many would have succeeded, and Mustafa Kemel did indeed bring about a secularized Turkey, but in Egypt, Palestine, the middle east, India and Russia, all these reformers were persecuted (I got in right this time continuum1) by their European colonizers who preferred to work with the established ulema–thinking these men had greater control of the people and therefore they would be easier to handle. I can send you source after source of these writings and direct you to the histories written about the reformers. In Central Asia and elsewhere women also participated in the reform movements.

  119. subanallah

    ""prottier Says:

    May 28th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
    Mr. Sina,

    I am sorry, I did not realize you attached your book. If it is good could I assign it for one of my courses? In other words, do you mind if I allow my students to view the PDF in a closed forum, meaning I would not freely publish the book for all to see but allow my students to read it. I am teaching an Islamic Civilizations course this summer. While we will not delve into the religious texts, but instead focus on the various societies it is good to expose students to a variety of opinions.""

    Respected Prottier and Ali Sina,
    I think students should be involved and they should post all their discussion on the forum. So that we all know what they are thinking. I am interested to know Dr. Prottier's student view. This will be good for islam. Praise Allah

  120. prottier

    Ibn Kammuna Says:
    May 29th, 2009 at 3:46 am

    Jihadists flee those countries you are talking about not because those countries adhere to true Islam. Those countries collaborate with the west.
    For your information, Islamic religion books in all Arab and Muslim countries teach Muslim Kids to hate Christians, Jews, and others. It is part of the religion. They rely on verses from the Qur’an.
    The Jihadists view Saudi Arabia and other countries as controlled by regimes that do not adhere to Islam. And, they are correct. True Islam will give you a lot of people like Bin laden and company. In fact, there are many of them out there. This is what Islamic Education and Islam produces. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. Why do you think that is? Maybe because “Islam is Peace” as Bush used to say lying to the American people.
    Sure, let Islam reform itself so some people have jobs studying this. The simple fact is: Islam belongs to the dust bin of history. This is the best reform it can have.

    I do agree that people like bin Laden feel Saudi Arabia does not adhere to true Islam–that was my point. But please tell me what is true Islam? What is true Judaism or true Christianity or true Hinduism, etc… While I enjoy your posts the most because at times it seems you are really interested to state that 'true' Islam is the path of jihad just isn't historically accurate. Sorry. That would be like reading the Torah and the Talmud quite literally like the Nazis did and 'saying this was true Judaism–they think they are God's chosen people who wish to destroy all others.' Studying some of the Nazi documents of the 1930s on Judaism is a lot like coming to this site. The Nazis claimed Jews were practiced liars trying to slowly blend in to society to destroy it. They practiced evil, perverted deeds with Gentile children and then killed them to use their blood for passover feasts. Yet, this same type of talk is here–we must eliminate Islam, well how do you do that without eliminating those who follow the religion?

    I have always believed that religions are the greatest proponents of hatred and discrimination. If someone thinks they know the correct and only way to the afterlife then everyone else is beneath them. Islam is no different–so don't write about how Islam acts so superior. I was sent to Catholic schools and we were taught that Protestants would go to hell along with all those other religions which we never discussed. Only Catholics knew the right way. Only through Jesus can you be saved. Jews continue to think of themselves as God's chosen people. The problem is no one will willingly give up their faith. The Soviets tried to systematically eliminate Islam, Christianity, Buddhism and Judaism from its territory, they were not successful–and they used brutal means. (See Adeeb Khalid's Islam after Communism) So in essence what you are arguing here is that we need to start killing Muslims, like the Spanish did, like Richard the Lionhearted did. Because the Soviet effort to eliminate it did not work–re-education, the killing of the ulema, the destruction of mosques, nothing worked. So then, I guess you will start the slaughter–the time has come for Huntington's famous Clash of Civilizations.

  121. rajiv12

    Pete Rottier says he is no Muslim and does not believe in Muhammad to be a Prophet of God, yet he was looking for a debate. He got what he deserved, a smashing reply from Ali Sina. He must be wondering what hit him.

  122. Halalpork786

    # 104 prottier Says:

    ""—But I can also assure you that popes, kings, tsars and others in history could equally fall into that category. Slowly, over time, we in the west made laws to protect children.—""

    You are right; but the problem with the Muslims ( radicals): they don't want to admit or believe that –their prophet MoHamMad also can fall in to the above category. They can go to the extent of killing you if you dare equate their Pedo. Prophet with ""–popes, kings, tsars and others in history–""

    Any educated intelligent person knows " Power corrupts only the lowly corruptible people like –popes, kings, tsars and cult leaders like Mo.—"

    As Ali Sina said —

    "–and I warn you to be careful. You are flirting with a wrong religion. Islam has been raping our countries, our cultures, our identity and even our intelligence for 1400 years. "

  123. rationalist

    Hi Pete Rottier, from your writings I can make out that you have a leftist vision. I suggest you to live with your wife in an Islamic county like Saudi Arabia or Iran. You will understand how each surah of Quran and ahadith will be applied in everyday life to such an extent that you will start feeling bored about this life and the next one.

  124. rationalist

    @125, aho this bloke JAH is an Indian Musalman. My friend, Muslims all over the world go to Mecca to kiss that black stone. You guys roam around that, eih? How about that? Will you answer or hide behind your "ammi jaan" to save yourself?

  125. ibrahim

    prottier Says:
    That is who I am and where my arguments stem. Having idiots say that I am defending Muhammad and child sex clearly ticked me off. Now, let’s have your credentials sir. Who are you? What is your education or experience on this topic? Why do you believe that all Muslims are either jihadists or just ignorant of true Islam?

    My education has nothing to do with being able to see the fallacy of Islam. However if you really are interested in knowing my Degree, I have a masters in a technical field. However I don't think that one needs to be a very big religious scholar to recognize evil. All you need is an enquiring mind. Moreoever I really don;t need to study Islam like you do. I was born and brough up as Muslim and continued to do so till the age of 25 years, till I formally left Islam and became an agnostic.
    You claim that you understand Islam really well. I am sorry to say but your understanding of Islam is very basic. The hadith and Quran form an intergral part of Islamic Juridprudence and laws. Without the hadith, Islam would be like a lame duck. In any case, its not about what you believe to be authentic or not. Its about how the Muslim world looks at the Hadith.
    Can you show me a single Sunni school which says that the hadith are not trustworthy, or is this something that you have come up with.
    The books of Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Isahq, Jalayn, were all written by Muslims. I have no reason to believe that they would malign their prophet by attributing lies to his personality. Futhermore, even if these hadith are fabricated, there are only a minority Muslims who believe so and therefore you grudge against Ali Sina and the rest of the Forum memebers is misguided.

    You also at one place said that we are hiding behind the safety of our own fake names on this Forum. You see dear Dr. This is the only luxury we Ex-Muslims enjoy. we can;t dare to say these things about Islam in the real world, otherwise we would suffer the same fate as Theo van Gogh, Ayaan Hisri Ali, Salman Rushdie.

    Can you tell me why Muslims wish to kill these people? Why is that only Muslims give in to such frenzy? I have never seen a pastor or a Hindu preist crying out for someone's head and even placing a price on his head.

    Just last year, a Mullah in India passed a fatwa on taslima Nasreen's head. The bounty was for some $ 1 million. Gee! that's a lot of money , and the mullah was not kidding. He had ample support from the hadith to ask Muslims to get Taslima Nasreen. Now it would be dificult to convince you since don't believe in the autheticity of the hadiths which most Muslims, Ulema as well as common Muslims believe in.

    So I think maybe, just maybe you should start thinking from the point of view of Muslim and maybe they you would be able to understand the reason behind FFI and its message, trutst me what Ali Sina is doing really works.

  126. ibrahim

    rationalist Says:
    @125, aho this bloke JAH is an Indian Musalman. My friend, Muslims all over the world go to Mecca to kiss that black stone. You guys roam around that, eih? How about that? Will you answer or hide behind your “ammi jaan” to save yourself?

    Muslims also circumbulate around the Kabba, Tawaf as its called in Arabic. It seems to me that the pre Islamic Arabs used to do this tawaf in the opposite dierction of which it is done now.

  127. Halalpork786

    Now that the numbers of comments on this article has crossed the 100th (+) mark : let me ask every one to go through the comments —

    (1 ) there are very few or no Profanity found.

    ( 2 ) Very few or no Idiotic rantings and name callings this time .( except by the regular few).

    ( 3) No hijacking of the main article.

    And all the credits goes to Ali Sina for writing the following few lines only.

    ""I do not mind people worshipping a phallus, as long as they don’t try to shove it in me. My problem with Islam is not that it is false. My problem is that Muslims want to shove their Allah in me by force. But I can’t take this much bull, and no amount of lubricant and sugarcoating help. ""

    Just a little change of voice and pattern : he could put every reader in line in this forum. Am I correct???

    Add to the above– this article was "off for all comments" ( for some time )

  128. proudkafir

    Oh by the way This person can go to sodi barbaria and declare that the sodis and othe rmoslems are all wrong and have been misinterpreting islam and prophet mohammad!
    Declare that hadith is all wrong and qran needs a bit of polishing and he is trying to help moslems to do that although he himself is a kafir, infidel and najis.We can all enjoy the scene of the head being separated from the rest of the body on friday chop chop square in Batha in Riyadh. sodi barbaria. How idiotic one can get to support islam and I do not believe it's not for money at all.

  129. rb

    the best way to get the copy of ali sina's book free is to invite him for a debate. i think the contestor achieved his goal. nothing more to add to this debate. for once the debater has won over ali sina in his ambition to get a free book.

  130. Jeraldo

    "Prottier wrote:
    The terrorist usually say God is Great, blah, blah, blah and then kill the innocent soul. It is repulsive but I can paste several passages of the Qur’an here that condemn those who kill innocents…"

    Surely you're aware that such 'peaceful' passages in the Qur'an have been abrogated by more violent and intolerant passages, written much later after Mohammed seized more power and obtained a larger cult following? You can quote those peaceful passages that you spoke of, but you'll find there's always a subsequent more violent/intolerant passage that succeeds any peaceful one in that crummy book. The Qur'an constantly checkmates itself like this.

    "Prottier wrote:
    …And the fatwas issued by the major muftis against terrorism use these passages as their base as well as they use the passages referring to suicide as strictly prohibited in Islam."

    Now you're talking about Al Taqqiya (deception). This is a little gem that permits Muslims to lie about Islam's true nature during times of duress. Of course, having some of your Allah-chanting buddies fly planes into American buildings is bound to draw the attention of the West towards your religion. Such an event certainly sounds like it'd be enough to put duress upon even the most major of muftis! No problem though, as they can simply put "Al Taqqiya" into effect, write up a new fatwa, and the problem is averted… people like you lap it up and sympathize with the poor muftis whose religion has been "hijacked" and they MUST be good because they've publicly taken action to denounce the act. You see it as an act of good will, while in truth, it's a publicity stunt designed to fool gullible westerners that Islam is peaceful. Mr. Prottier, you're the one who needs to see the bigger picture, it seems!

    "Prottier wrote:
    This is exactly my point–it is impossible to eradicate Islam, believe me the Soviets tried hard to eradicate Islam in territory they controlled and they could not do so. How do you believe we eradicate Islam? Kill all 1.2 billion Muslims."

    Not by killing them. By educating them, which is precisely what this site and Ali Sina are attempting to do. However, dissenters like yourself make that task more difficult than it already is by helping Muslims stay in their rut rather than using logical thought. If Muslims simply bother to use their brains, the would make the connection that all of the evils, poverty, and bad things that happen are due to the Islam they so closely surround themselves with.

    Finally, you claim that Islam/Qur'an have interpreted in a variety of ways by many different Muslims, and that this diversity was caused a series of small reformations over the centuries that resulted in the sanitization of modern Islam.

    Well, the overwhelming Muslim consensus is that the Qur'an (Allahs words in the form of the book by which Muslims are instructed to behave) is perfect and non-flawed, and valid for all-time. Why, then, is such a "perfect" and "Godly" book, so bloody confusing for even its most pious followers to comprehend? This nonsensical compilation of uneven passages not only contains numerous scientific blunders and whimsical gibberish… it's not even compiled in chronological order! What kind of messy, unedited, incomplete clutter did Allah send down to his prophet to spread? If this was a school assignment, Allah would receive a Grade F for sure!

    This is why so many Muslims cannot make head nor tail of the Qur'ans teachings, and end up "deviating" and creating numerous spin-off sects of Islam. This is evidenced by the fact that the majority of Muslims cannot even read Arabic! Surely a divine set of teachings should be clear to understand for ALL followers in order to encourage more adherents to join of their own free will. If the confusion generated by attempting to read Qur'an results in some Muslims becoming moderates and others becoming terrorists, then it only proves the Qur'an is FAR from perfect or Godly. If it has the slightest potential to inspire terrorism via ANY avenue of interpretation, then this means it cannot be a holy boon and is, in fact, worthless junk.

    If Islam was truly a religion of peace, the Qur'an would not contain any such passages which could even slightly be interpreted to mean resorting to violence or raping a child, whether metaphorical or not. What kind of sicko writes metaphors about penetrating a kid anyway? And why is this phenomenon of 'misinterpretation' of the Holy Book exclusive to Islam? No other religion has a Holy Book that's so asinine and convoluted that it is subject to multiple interpretations with such polar opposites as being completely peaceful or completely hellbent on world domination. You'll find that Islam's Qur'an has exclusivity there.

    The answer to all this is that the Qur'an is incomprehensible garbage and when Muslims cannot interpret it, they just take what it says literally and Islam becomes a free-for-all where they start to really believe that Allah has given them free-reign to do whatever they please to whomever they choose.

    Mr Prottier, I think you do understand the points of view being presented to you by people on this site, but perhaps you are reluctant to want to accept them? It's understandable. I know that if I had dedicated a substantial portion of my life and career to teaching a certain subject, I too would be taken aback at the sudden prospect that everything I had believed and taught over time could possibly be wrong. I would be worried about how it might affect my credibility, and that my career might be in jeopardy as a result. That's only natural. But isn't it always be better to be correct and informed, rather than knowing that something is amiss, yet continuing to turn a blind eye by labeling drinking water as poison when you suspect such is not the case?

    Regardless of what you might stand to loose if your views on Islam are incorrect, you really should spare a thought for many of the ex-Muslims on this site (such as Ali Sina) who speak from first hand experience of growing up living under Islam in the Middle East. Their collective experience living as Muslims in such societies speaks volumes about the true nature of Islam.

    As an American non-Muslim, who are you to downplay what these people have experienced and witnessed first-hand? You would do well to not only listen (as I know you already are) but also to keep an open mind and absorb what these ex-Muslims are reiterating again and again about the evil of Islam. They are trying to save souls and lives by making Muslims think for themselves before they can ever risk 'misinterpreting' the Qur'an and becoming menaces to society or terrorists. Besides, what benefit would ex-Muslims have from trying to defame Islam? This is not a hate site and you can clearly see at the top right of FFI where it says that the site is against the ideology of Islam, not Muslims; it's against ignorance and not hate. Those ex-Muslims on FFI, some of whom have LIVED through Muslim atrocities, have found the strength to leave Islam (not an easy task, believe me) and now spend their time warning and educating other Muslims about the dangers of Islam. They are to be commended for doing something brave and very difficult. I feel it is arrogant of you to lecture them on how wrong they are when they have personally lived this life, and you have not.

  131. Kinana

    Mr Rottier

    Thank you for your various replies here.

    I am sympathetic to your position, in so far as I can understand it.

    But are you any closer to answering the question for yourself: What is Islam?

    If any of the commentators here point to a source you question its authenticity or historical accuracy, and offer in repost examples of reforming and reformed Muslims.

    But your use of ‘reforming and reformed Muslims’ points to an Islam from which they are reforming and reformed from. So if your ‘reforming and reformed Muslims’ are responding to an authentic or original Islam can we agree what that is? Can you tell us where it is to be found?

    Thanks

  132. a_comment

    #77. prottier Says: Even most terrorist do not interpret the Qur’an to mean that they must kill or convert non-Muslims.
    Sir on what basis have you reached that conclusion? In every beheading video the chants of allah hu akbar before, while and after beheading are for what? On one hand you can see the koran and in the other a AK47 assault rifle. Even after seeing that you want me to believe that the followers of koran are peaceful. Can you point out any other religion doing the same, holding their "holy book" in one hand and an assault rifle in another and saying that its a peaceful religion?
    What exactly are the goals of the islamic terrorists?

    At the time the Qur’an was created Muhammad had his hands full fighting his old tribe the Quraish. The infidel, often found in the Qur’an refers to the polytheists of Arabia, not to Jews or Christians, designated as the Peoples of the Book.
    Sir, why do we read in the koran that Jews are descendants of pigs and apes?
    Why should a muslim not take for friends the Jews and Christians? Why are non muslims najis (unclean)? Why are they prohibited from Mecca?

    Remember Muhammad justified his religious legitimacy on the Jews and Christians, Islam was simply an extension of the Abrahamic faiths. When the conquests started the Muslims quickly conquered the Persian empire, which had Zoroastrianism as its major religion. The Muslims, outnumbered as always, quickly recognized this religion as being of a Book as well, even though it was not of the Abrahamic faith. Again, this was done for logistical reasons and not out of the goodness of anyone’s heart. These were savage, nomadic conquests of major established empires, not unlike the 13th century Mongol invasions so I am not an apologist for Islam. Just a historian trying to show a wider picture than the one this site shows.
    Sir, I know the wider picture first hand, the destruction it has brought upon Indian civilization, the barbaric rule India had to endure, paying of jiziya or the poll tax, killing of people who did not pay or convert, , and we still face a threat from our once brothers what today is Pakistan. Only recently in 26/11 about 170 people were killed without any provocation. You telling us the there is no imminent threat sounds hallow. 26/11 has given a lesson, is that now we have to take security in our own hands. Start buying guns and keep it everytime you venture out of your house. You never know when terrorists will strike you. You want us to lower our guard. This only helps the muslim terrorist world indirectly. The amount of hate taught in Pakistan towards an Indian is unimaginable to you. You may be comfortable after 9/11, sorry we are not. Every decade or two we have a war in our hand as because Mo never honored any peace treaty he signed into and the muslims feel that there should be no peace with the infidels for more than 10 years.

    The terrorist usually say God is Great, blah, blah, blah and then kill the innocent soul. It is repulsive but I can paste several passages of the Qur’an here that condemn those who kill innocents.
    Sir you are a professor of history and it pains me to point out to you that you as a professor of chalk trying to teach me a lesson of cheese. There is a part of koran which is known to have originated when muhammad was in Mecca and these are the ones having peaceful verses (even those verses whether they are peaceful is doubted). Then comes the Medina verses when muhammad became a powerful despot. He himself said that whenever new verses are given the old ones are no longer applicable. All the hate and killing verses are Medina verses and they take precedence over Mecca verses.

    Here is a compilation of the sweet verses versus the killing verses

    And the fatwas issued by the major muftis against terrorism use these passages as their base as well as they use the passages referring to suicide as strictly prohibited in Islam.
    Its a good cop bad cop syndrome. The good cop tells me, oh Islam is a religion of peace and the bad cop tells me its a religion of pieces. Islamic taqiyya at its best. I hope myself a humble layman, doesn't have to explain an eminent professor like you what islamic taqiyya is?

  133. unfortunate

    Dr.Rottier

    >Why not look at the Jewish zealots ….
    I tried to do that once when I was caught without a ticket in a Mumbai suburban train. After all, I said to the ticket checker, many people do it. It was politely explained to me that the doings of others can never absolve me of my own guilt. Hope you get the point.

    As to historical researches with respect to poor Aisha, pl remember that the veracity and authenticity of her age at marriage or consummation are irrelevant. THE MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS BELIEVE MOHAMMED MARRIED A CHILD. Muslims also believe Mohammed was a paragon of virtue, and his life to be the only one fit to be emulated. It follows then that it is not only just okay, but clearly virtuous for a man to marry a child. I am sure you disagree with this.

    You have cited a number of violent instances from the Bible (I am not a Christian), but the comparison with Islam is unfair. Christianity has largely been officially reformed and no Pope can call for a Crusade now. For even if he does, it would be a very small fighting force indeed.

    However, that is not the case with Islam. The quran is the mother of all books, an exact copy of the original that lies with god. That makes its teachings immutable and everlasting, thereby precluding chances of real reform. You also talk of Islamic republics that emerged in the 19th and 20th centuries that began with great visions of secular democracy. You just have to see what happened to Pakistan and Bangladesh. It appears that even Kemal Pasha has lost his appeal and Turkey might capitulate to the hands of muslim fundamentalists.

    You yourself admit to the narrow interpretation of Wahabi islam, but fail to acknowledge the deleterious influence it has had on almost all countries where muslims live. The royals of Saudi Arabia have financed madarasas and mosques in every region of the world, intending to propagate their own obscurantist version of the religion. Nearly all conflicts in Muslim countries can be attributed to the ignorance and foolishness spread by education in madarasas.

    You may not be aware, but there are very influential muslim preachers with vast audiences enthralled to listen that almost any discovery or invention is predicted in the quran, that all of science is in consonance with the quran, and anything that isn't is false (like plate tectonics or the theory of evolution). Eg, look for Zakir Naik in Wikislam. http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Rebuttals_to_Zakir_

    These preachers have also absolved bin Laden of the 9/11 attacks and instead talk of an "American-Zionist" plot. As it unfolded in Mumbai in November 2008, Pakistani TV channels were debating if the attackers were Hindus or Jews. It was later proved that all the attackers were Pakistani muslims.

    You sound like an idealist out of touch with reality. Please note I do not intend to disparage you or your learning. "I met a few muslims and they were most decent" sounds naive, if politically correct. In the final analysis, Islam does seem to be the problem, and hoping for reforms to come from within is futile. Hence this web-site where Ali Sina and his group of ex-muslims aim to shine a light to their oppressed and ignorant ex-co religionists.

  134. ibnsahr

    good debate, very well put argument against mr.pottier,

    This guy says “so I do not believe Muhammad is a prophet from God myself”
    in your last section of letter

    Is that means islam not supposed to be exist, cos from him the quran came from,

    I don’t even have diploma, but from what rottier says, some one can assume, that mohamed just made things up, because his not a prophet from god.

    Why he wants to go this extra length, if he doesn’t even belive him

    And from #111

    “So Abu Bakr used his Muslim army, to fight the Ridda wars, the wars of apostasy to slowly reunite the tribes. It took him his last two years of life. Omar, the next Caliph then decided the best thing to do with these nomadic fighters was to give them a common enemy and they went out of Arabia into the Persian empire and surprisingly conquered it quite easily, they also gobbled up a large chunk of the Byzantine Empire”

    You as historian, do you agree islam is spread by force, in very early stage Sir?

    Im sure your wife will be proud of you, bring home the money out of nonsense

  135. focussed

    Please debate this in forum so that it is visually appealing to read and easy to understand. I think this will become an interesting debate.

  136. ibrahim

    Focused, I think you are right, I ll have to re register myself at the Forum and get a new ID.

  137. ibrahim

    By the way Focussed, its very time consuming to debate in both Forums.

  138. proudkafir

    Dear Momeens
    These infidel najis are really cantakerous fellows and are spreading hatred towards moslems. Please stay locked on to every site that tries to defame islam and show the najis how your belief is being strengthened by the site.All this ranting and ravings by the infidels has no effect on me and my allah. ( thats because we both are now gone!!) Trust me my children as you always have done.Afghanisthan and porkisthan, bingly desh are all tests for you momeens for a paradise that awaits your dik's arrival with 72 virgins and 28 boys.Think of all the fun with 72 virgins and as soon as you are done with them 28 boys with pearl like bottom will be ther for you and you really can ejaculate 100 times every day! Nothing should deter you from the path ofallah

  139. focussed

    Ibrahim,
    It appears that it is time consuming in the forum in the beginning but once you get used to it, it is much faster.

    Besides, the major benefit of using forum is that it can be made sticky if the debate is good and people can refer to it. Also, it will continue to be accessible on the forum main page as long as it is active. Here it will get pushed out as new articles get added.

    Since I am expecting this to be a long one with students of Mr. Rottier joining in, it would be great to have it in Forum.

  140. focussed

    Ibrahim,
    I thought you had an ID already there. What happened to that? Khuda…

  141. prottier

    138. ibnsahr Says:
    May 29th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    This guy says “so I do not believe Muhammad is a prophet from God myself”
    in your last section of letter

    Is that means islam not supposed to be exist, cos from him the quran came from,

    I don’t even have diploma, but from what rottier says, some one can assume, that mohamed just made things up, because his not a prophet from god.

    Why he wants to go this extra length, if he doesn’t even belive him "

    Sorry Ibnsahr, but I am a true heathen–I don't believe in any religion and do believe that all holy books are made up gobbley-gook. But my point is not that Islam is a religion because it was based on a prophet of god, I don't believe Jesus was the son of god, or a prophet, but rather a reformer. Like Muhammad, Jesus saw ills in society that he thought needed correcting. He made his arguments from a religious perspective and used pre-existing religions to legitimize his reforms. Now, did he do this intentionally or did he really think he was a prophet of god? That is a strange question because I don't think it is possible to "put Muhammad or Jesus on the couch." As a historian, when I read the Qur'an I don't take it as fact, I use it to try to understand what Arabia was like. Why did Muhammad's ideas catch on? More than likely there were many 'prophets' seeking to change society in Arabia at the time. In the time of Jesus 1000s of cult religions abounded, yet christianity gained credence. In Arabia 100s of cult religions existed, some others were also based on the Abrahamic faiths, yet Islam persevered–how? Why? These are the questions historians ask.

    Ali Sina and those on this site do not ask these questions. Instead they do try to put Muhammad on the couch and psychoanalyze him. Some see Muhammad as possessed, an agent of the devil out to destroy Christianity yet there is not an account of him ordering Christian killed that I can find. (I'm sure I will inundated with numerous examples–likely stemming from Hadith because they are not in the Qur'an. Again, as a historian, without outside corroboration the Hadith literature is not good historical evidence for Muhammad's time–it better depicts the times in which it was written than the early years.)

    As for your assertion that Islam was spread by the sword at first, I agree but only indirectly. The conquering Arabs truly believed that Islam was their religion and did not seek converts. When non-Arabs converted they were still subject to the poll tax. There was no incentive for Muslims to convert the non-Muslims–if they did they lost revenue. By the way, there is constant reverence to Muslims treating the people they conquered as second class citizens because they imposed heavier taxes than on non-Muslims, please show me examples of the egalitarian conquerors in history that did not treat the conquered populations as second class citizens. Historically it is a ludicrous argument. In the US, the colonizers pushed natives off the land when they found they died to easy when enslaved, tried to exterminate them with small pox and finally placed them on unusable land until a use was found and then took the land back and this was in the 18-19th centuries! European Christians enslaved most of the world by the turn of the 20th century–where is all the wealth and good will enlightened Western civilization brought? And by the way, Christianity was also spread by the sword once it had power. Charlemagne conquered in the name of Christ and forcibly converted the vanquished as did Clovis before him. You all act as if Islam is special in its brutality when that isn't the problem. The problem is more cultural than religious… By alas, I am a stupid ignoramus who defrauds poor college students….

  142. A0000Z

    # 146. prottier Says:

    "–I don’t believe Jesus was the son of god, or a prophet, but rather a reformer. Like Muhammad, Jesus saw ills in society that he thought needed correcting. He made his arguments from a religious perspective and used pre-existing religions to legitimize his reforms.– "

    Your statement holds good when it comes to Hinduism and Buddhism, with Gautama Buddha as a reformer.

    But as far as Christianity and Islam are concerned it is a different story.

    May be Jesus tried to reform Judaism, but MoHamMad very successfully used all the evil parts of OT and Judaism to make a fool of his followers , to give birth to the vilest of all cults called Islam.. How about rereading your history books allover again.

    We know( last century) to get a PHD in any subject one needed a pair of scissors to cut from some books and some glue to paste on the thesis paper. Nowadays with the Internet , you just have to copy/paste to get your PHD. Am I correct.

  143. focussed

    "Again, as a historian, without outside corroboration the Hadith literature is not good historical evidence for Muhammad’s time–it better depicts the times in which it was written than the early years.)"
    Whichever lands muslims conquered, they destroyed all the local libraries and all previous literature was burned. How will you get another historical evidence. You need to look for archeological evidences to corroborate events in history.

    yes, Christianity was initially spread by sword but most of the european colonialism was motivated by greed and not by religous fervour and it is history now. The problem with Islam is it continues to this day. One could argue that Christianity had 500 more years to reform but do you really want to give 500 more years of bloodshed to islam before it gets reformed/destroyed?

  144. prottier

    Dear unfortunate,

    Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I will respond as well as possible:

    "I tried to do that once when I was caught without a ticket in a Mumbai suburban train. After all, I said to the ticket checker, many people do it. It was politely explained to me that the doings of others can never absolve me of my own guilt. Hope you get the point."

    I was not trying to absolve anyone of anything. I abhor violence, period. Whether it is religiously or nationalistically based.

    "As to historical researches with respect to poor Aisha, pl remember that the veracity and authenticity of her age at marriage or consummation are irrelevant. THE MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS BELIEVE MOHAMMED MARRIED A CHILD. Muslims also believe Mohammed was a paragon of virtue, and his life to be the only one fit to be emulated. It follows then that it is not only just okay, but clearly virtuous for a man to marry a child. I am sure you disagree with this."

    This was my point exactly–this was what was valued at the time the Hadiths were written. Yes, some take Hadiths literally, but the reality is that most muslims do not understand the basic texts of their religion because they are too legalistic–hence the prominence of sufiism (only after the appearance of sufiism did Islam spread to the masses.) So legal scholars and those of you on this site may think of child marriage as virtuous but most Muslims do not. While living in the -stans, the Muslims I engaged with clearly found pedophilia abhorrent. Also, modern encounters have changed cultural practices over time–just like in the west. But even so, pedophilia will continue to exist–as I stated in an earlier post, Western, Christian, caucasian men tend to take 'sex vacations' to Thailand and other foreign destinations simply because it is more culturally accepted to allow children to have sexual relations with adults. This is not simply a Muslim thing.

    "You have cited a number of violent instances from the Bible (I am not a Christian), but the comparison with Islam is unfair. Christianity has largely been officially reformed and no Pope can call for a Crusade now. For even if he does, it would be a very small fighting force indeed."

    Yes, I have also offered the evidence of leading Islamic figures, the last Caliph for example, issuing a fatwa for all Muslims of the world to engage in jihad and there was NO following. Even the CIA sent radical Islamic audio tapes and books into Soviet Central Asia in the 1980s asking the Muslims to fight a jihad with their Afghani Muslim brothers against the atheist infidels–again, even though large numbers of Central Asian soldiers had weapons and training they fought with the Soviets not against them.

    "However, that is not the case with Islam. The quran is the mother of all books, an exact copy of the original that lies with god. That makes its teachings immutable and everlasting, thereby precluding chances of real reform. You also talk of Islamic republics that emerged in the 19th and 20th centuries that began with great visions of secular democracy. You just have to see what happened to Pakistan and Bangladesh. It appears that even Kemal Pasha has lost his appeal and Turkey might capitulate to the hands of muslim fundamentalists."

    Largely Kemal is losing his appeal because true democracy has not been allowed in Turkey. Whenever an Islamic party appears the military shuts it down. Instead of letting radical ideas perish in the light they are driven underground where they find fertile soil.

    "You yourself admit to the narrow interpretation of Wahabi islam, but fail to acknowledge the deleterious influence it has had on almost all countries where muslims live. The royals of Saudi Arabia have financed madarasas and mosques in every region of the world, intending to propagate their own obscurantist version of the religion. Nearly all conflicts in Muslim countries can be attributed to the ignorance and foolishness spread by education in madarasas."

    Yes, this is exactly what Muslim reformers say, so why don't you as a group help finance reformed muftis to build madrasas?

    "You may not be aware, but there are very influential muslim preachers with vast audiences enthralled to listen that almost any discovery or invention is predicted in the quran, that all of science is in consonance with the quran, and anything that isn’t is false (like plate tectonics or the theory of evolution). Eg, look for Zakir Naik in Wikislam. http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Rebuttals_to_Zakir_

    These preachers have also absolved bin Laden of the 9/11 attacks and instead talk of an “American-Zionist” plot. As it unfolded in Mumbai in November 2008, Pakistani TV channels were debating if the attackers were Hindus or Jews. It was later proved that all the attackers were Pakistani muslims."

    So acts of violence between Pakistanis and Indians only deals with religion? This is a messy conflict, not unlike Northern Ireland, but it is not all religiously based. Several modern concepts like nationalism are also entangled. As for these idiots who disavow science–many Muslim reformers have argued that Islam is totally reconcilable with modern science.

    "You sound like an idealist out of touch with reality. Please note I do not intend to disparage you or your learning. “I met a few muslims and they were most decent” sounds naive, if politically correct. In the final analysis, Islam does seem to be the problem, and hoping for reforms to come from within is futile. Hence this web-site where Ali Sina and his group of ex-muslims aim to shine a light to their oppressed and ignorant ex-co religionists."

    Thanks for your assessment. I may be an idealist but my point is fairly straight forward–Islam itself is not the problem, it is all in the interpretation. My earlier point about the zealots is that some Jews take what is written in the Torah and the Talmud much more literally and justify their use of violence with these documents, yet no one on this site is upset about Jewish extremist or paint all of Judaism with this brush. similarly some evangelical Christians in the US have come out in favor of using violence to achieve their ends–ending abortion by terrorizing doctors to perform them; harassing and beating, sometimes killing gays, etc… Surely this is a small fringe group, but I could compile a list of biblical justification and claim that this is what all Christians believe because it is in their book. I would defend these people as well. History does not show Islam to be this bin Laden form of the faith.

  145. focussed

    let us take one example. British rules India for 250+ years but how many temples/mosques did they demolish?

    Muslims ruled India for 750 years. how many temples did they demolish? How many hindus did they kill/enslave? How many women were raped.

    Please study the barbarity of how muslims killed innocent civilians in the 80's in Lebanon, 90's in Kashmir.

  146. prottier

    A0000Z wrote:

    "We know( last century) to get a PHD in any subject one needed a pair of scissors to cut from some books and some glue to paste on the thesis paper. Nowadays with the Internet , you just have to copy/paste to get your PHD. Am I correct."

    Oh heavens yes! A PhD from a stupid place like Wisconsin, just used wikipedia–or was it wiki-islam? I'm so dumb I can't remember…. Perhaps I am too stupid to even realize that I could have bought a ready made dissertation… even after making it through all those brainwashing courses that really made me spit out vile spew. Yep, us stupid PhDs are pretty useless. After your thoughtful argument I think I now see the light. It is much better to through out all historical evidence and only look at Hadith and the Qur'an suras that suit my point of view. It is much better to put a 1500 year old on the couch and psycho analyze him to understand 1.2 billion people of various cultures and see them all as evil or ignorant.

    Sina asked yesterday and I didn't get a chance to respond if I thought Germans knew how evil Hitler was. Please take a look at the book Hitler's Willing Executioners, it is eye opening how much they knew and how willing they were to kill for Hitler. You see, Hitler took a ready made idea and feeling, anti-Semitism, and simply honed it a little. To say that Islam is evil is a totally different thing. Religions manifest themselves differently over time–only by looking at the religion over time can you see its nature and how it changes with the changing times. You all seem to think that Islam is some all powerful evil but if so why do the Saudi Kings control it? Why would they not let the mighty muftis run the country so that they are complying with Allah's true plan? Why is every group you offer as proof an underground, illegal group? Even the Taliban could not take over Afghanistan in its entirety with the vast resources of the Saudis, the Pakistanis, and indirectly, the US. Why? Because in truth what happened in Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal had much more to do with modern issues than with ancient religions. It was about Pashtun authority in opposition to Tajik or Uzbek authority. It had more to do with warlords and clan and ethnic fights than Islam. Islam was the excuse, the form of legitimization the Taliban used. Oh, I am suppose to be too stupid, or idealistic or brainwashed to know any of this. You're right, Islam made them do it.

  147. focussed

    Mr Rottier,
    If it is not Islam, what is driving Turkey towards marginalizing its christian population? They are not even allowed to refurbish their churches and it is supposed to be a moderate muslim country.
    Why do Saudi's still not allow any other religious structure other than mosque?

    Why are minorities in Bangladesh (both christian and hindu) a dying breed?

    Why is apostasy a crime punishable by death only in Islam and is still enforced in many islamic countries with proper governments and not warlords?

  148. ibrahim

    Ali Sina says

    My problem is that Muslims want to shove their Allah in me by force. You took it in. Congratulations! But I can’t, and no amount of lubrication and sugarcoating helps.

    This man must still be reeling under shock……heheee

  149. londonspirit

    Prottier ali sina is a complete lier. I answered all his questions in jamshed vs ali sina. He saw that i answered his questions and he gave me his email adress and said he will present me with more info regarding evil in islam. I emailed him 3 weeks ago and still nothing heard from him. He is a deciveing lier. He twists verses and makes it sound like how he wants it to sound. He is evil and is spreaading his hatred to these people on here.

  150. Dajjal

    Hi londonspirit, tons of information is available in this site itself, enough for the dead muhammad to turn in his grave. Ali Sina always quotes from the islamic sources and it is you who is doing a taqqia by giving apolegetic versions by doing a spin and twist of the hate filled diabolic verses.

  151. londonspirit

    dajjal. i have seen alot of these things and all lies. Verses out of context. And the one relating to muslims killing, well that is just picking and choosing. I could easily set up a website about amercian soldiers. Getting images of abu ghraib prison and afganistan. Post it on my website and say look at these americans. That is exactly what ali sina is doing. He is picking and choosing what to show you people.

    Why doesnt ali sina show all the muslims getting degrees, or the muslims spreading humanitarian aid, lke islamic relif, safe hands, islamic aid, interpal and so on. These good actions by majority of muslim doesnt exist in his eyes but when someone who is muslim does a bad action he gets excited and decides to post on here.

    Dajjal why dont you post some of the things he says on here and i will answer them for everyone to see.

  152. Moooo

    Ck ck ck. regarding pedophilia there are many muslim who practice it. There is no age limit and no rules from quran to stop that. And don't forget about temporary marriage, i have seen it. a lot.

  153. Dajjal

    londonspirit says "And the definition of pedophile is someone who lusts after little children.If muhammed was a pedophile why didnt he follow young gals. As a matter of fact he asked woman to cover there bodies from head to toe".

    ——–Muhammad in his fifties was betrothed to 6 year old baby aisha while she was still playing with dolls and entered her at her age of 9. This one recorded fact of bonking a child confirms that he was a sicko, a pedophile which is apart from his numerous escapades of war mongering, raiding, looting, raping, wife stealing and much more. Certainly not an examplary behaviour from a man whose life is supposed to be emulated for all times.He was in a habbit of putting his own words in his alter ego allah, there is a verse which says marry upto four, muhammad was allowed dozens including baby aisha and his own daugter in law. He made his alter ego to reveal verses covering women from head to toe but made it halal to rape captured infidel women even if they were married, so where lies the ethics.

  154. vijay

    Vijay,
    this video is a hoax. We had a problem with it before. Thank you.

    Editor

  155. londonspirit

    MOOOOOOOOO if you even bothered to research tempory marraige dont exist, You may see it alot in countries like Iran but they do it for their own satisfaction. And dajjal you mentioning muslims allowed to rape and so on, where is your proof. please bring a verse from the quran where it says we are allowed to rape woman. its no point you mouthing off it. wot your saying means jibarish to me without proof.
    Actually i will tell you what it says in the quran

    “Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is aware of what they do.” (Quran 24:30)

    “And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms…” (Quran 24:31)

    Quran clearly says when you see a woman lower your gaze, dont direct your eyes towards them. so if the quran says as strict as not to even look at a woman how can it than say to rape one. Show me where in the quran it says rape woman.

    You still going on about ayeesha, if you knew that he didnt asked to get married to ayeesha he was brought to her. and on the first account of introduction he rejected the proposal. If he was such a pedophile dont you think he would have taken te chance to get her when she is more younger. And gals as young as 9 in those days were much more mature and even i some countires today especially 3rd world countries you see gals younger then 9 who are so mature and do work to earn ends meat.

    Further on you keep saying about muhammed lusting at gals when in quran it says not to even look at them. But i bet you an many other guys on here who are in their 40s or 50's see a beautiful young 18 year old gal in the streets and say i wish i had her.

    Dont deny and say no i dont or something stupid. You set your limits to 18 year olds cause thats what has been put into your head as the legal age. but in england it is 16 so you get 50 year olds marrying 16 year old gals. it happens alot. thats where you get phrases like toyboys or sugar daddies. these kind of relationships happen.

    I bet if ali sina had a 17 year old ask him out he would jump at the chance.

  156. Ibn Kammuna

    Dr. Prottier, Hello again
    you say:

    My biggest problem coming to this site and reading it is that it is so similar to the Nazi newspaper and how they were uncovering the ‘real’ Jews. Even articles written by ex-Jews to corroborate the thinking of the Nazis. The parallel is eerie.

    Anyone can accuse this site. Your analogy is flawed anyway. We do not advocate hating Muslim or harming them. We believe they are mistaken and need to leave that evil cult. This is why Sina and others debate people. FFI motto-top of the page-states its core belief. FFI is against Hate not faith. It is against Islam not Muslims. Most people here are apostates. The have Muslim families and friends all around them. In effect, you are accusing us that we are like the Nazis.
    I wonder if you ever thought of accusing anyone who believes Islam is true a Nazi. This is what they are in their core beliefs. Islam has a supremacist core values. It wants to subjugate all others. Yet you come here and accuse people here of promoting a Nazi-like agenda.
    In any case, you are mistaken in your analogy. Muslims, not FFI should have been the target of your analogy.
    Have a good day brother.

  157. Moooo

    Ck ck ck muslim practice all of that (marry a child or marriage with contract) in indonesia. When they asked they just show the hadis or book by muslim scholar. Again no rules to stop them.

  158. rationalt

    Prottier wrote

    "My biggest problem coming to this site and reading it is that it is so similar to the Nazi newspaper and how they were uncovering the ‘real’ Jews".

    Did the nazi news paper say That jews were Killing non jews with cries of Yhweh Akbar.?

    Did they provide any evidence about jews?

  159. peacebewithyou

    Dr. Prottier,
    I cannot remain silent anymore. I think you should give back your PhD degree and immediately put an end tarnishing University of Wisconsin.
    "Religions manifest themselves differently over time–only by looking at the religion over time can you see its nature and how it changes with the changing times."
    Yes to attract followers, a cult member has to bend few rules here and there. For example, in India Sufi was one of the modes used to spread islam in india. Later on, radical ideology is slowly indoctrinated. Islam cannot be reform as muslims claim the quran is the world of allah and mad man Muhammad is their mentor.
    ". You all seem to think that Islam is some all powerful evil"
    Sir, I stayed most of my life in India. If there is an evil then it is muslims who follow islam. These brain dead muslims had split India into Pakistan, current India and Bangladesh. Now they want more and more. Everyday, nonmuslims are threaten by muslims gangs in india and it is not at all reported in media. It is happening in buddhist nation too eg thailand. Islam wants to dominate. I do not feel pity for you when ali sina kicked your sorry a$$.
    "but if so why do the Saudi Kings control it?"
    Sir, you have PhD. I guess you got it by bribing someone. Saudi rule by force. Have you atleast check Saudi history. Who brought all the tribes together and how. Saudi rulers have enough money to maintain an strong army and silence western govt. If a person living in Saudi dares to challenge royals ends up in jail. Saudi citizen go to another country to bring change. Also, the founder of Saudi was smart person. After defeating his enemies, he immediately got married with girls from influential family of multiple tribes – to maintain his superiority. His descendents are in plenty and are rulers in each saud province. So poor people cannot challenge for lack of proper resources and they themselves belong to certain tribes.
    "Why would they not let the mighty muftis run the country so that they are complying with Allah’s true plan?"
    Long time ago, mufti did challenge Saudi royals and laid a siege to the holiest mosque in Saudi. What happened? Saudi royals ordered their army to run them over. Case closed. Islam only understands force.
    "Even the Taliban could not take over Afghanistan in its entirety with the vast resources of the Saudis, the Pakistanis, and indirectly, the US. ——————idealistic or brainwashed to know any of this. You’re right, Islam made them do it."

    I agree with you on “tribal feudality, customs, tradition and differences among those folks. All of them wanted to be superior. However, islam is the one important backstage player in those differences. Each clan thought their practices are moral and other are bad. This is what islam is. It makes one believe of superiority.

  160. prottier

    In response to rationalt and my friend Ibn Kammuna, greetings. The following is an excerpt from Der Struermer the Nazi newspaper. I will agree that Dr. Sina does put the motto on the top of the website, but regardless of whether or not he and others here see Islam as a faith, Muslims do see it as a faith. Disrespecting it and blaming every terrorist atrocity on the religion is seeing the forest for the trees. The slippery slope you mentioned last evening will surely follow. You cannot condemn a religion and not its adherents. A better analogy is that of Islam as an instrument. Every time in this country that a major gun incident happens gun control advocates blame the guns and want controls–gun rights activists come out and say Guns don't kill people–people kill people. Islam is a tool, throughout the centuries it as been used as an excuse for conquest as well as a call to take care of the poor, sick, and other humanitarian needs. Today few of the 54 Muslim majority countries operate under sharia. The extremists are marginalized but they remain dangerous because they use Islam to promise boys a good afterlife. Don't blame the tool, blame the extremists and blame the conditions that gave these psychos the ability to use Islam to appeal to the disenfranchised. Getting rid of despotic dictators in the Middle East and South Asia would be a good first step. As I said earlier, put the erratic and outdated ideas propounded by fundamentalists to the light of day and they will die. Keep them underground and they will eventually bloom. Kill extremism by exposing it to democracy and a free press. By blaming the religion you are indirectly blaming its adherents. Sina clearly states that true Islam requires jihad as stated by certain Hadith literature. Therefore he concludes that Muslims are either ignorant of their true faith and we need to open their eyes before they accept it or they are already jihadists. This logic sets in motion the slippery slope argument I made yesterday. Condemning Islam paints all Muslims as cult followers and therefore less than fully human. It is the same thing members here rail against–the 'superiority complex of Islam.' BTY all religions believe they and they alone know the true path to salvation so they are superior. Read Der Struermer and then tell me how this is not the same idea:

    Der Stuermer has come to know the Jew from the confession which Dr. Conrad Alberti-Sittenfeld, a Jew, wrote in 1899 in No. 12 of the magazine GESELLSCHAFT: "One of the most dangerous Jewish qualities is brutal, direct, barbaric intolerance. A worse tyranny cannot be practiced than that which the Jewish clique practices. If you try to move against this Jewish clique they will, without hesitation, use brutal methods to overcome you. Mainly the Jew tries to destroy his enemy in the mental area, by which he takes his enemy's material substance away and undermines his civil reputation and existence. The vilest of all forms of retaliation, the boycott, is characteristically Jewish."

  161. prottier

    peacebewithyou,

    Thank you for your insults. I will not turn in my PhD, it was hard earned. You proved my point exactly in the Saudi case. The royals don't follow Islam do they? As you said a mufti (and actually more than one–87 were removed from mosques in the early 1990s) but the Saudis used force AGAINST Islam and then justified their action by appointing other clerics to write fatwas to justify their action. Thank you–this is what I meant by looking at religions through the lens of history. If Islam was the murderous cult it is portrayed to be wouldn't the royals give up their worldly pleasures for a happy afterlife? After all the rich Saudi bin Laden gave up his comforts to live in caves in Afghanistan–this is whole claim to legitimacy, but when push came to shove and the Taliban were going to expel him he bowed down to a Deobandi cleric, Omar and declared that Omar was the heir to the caliph. He must have practically had to throw up because this was clearly against his ideal of Islam. So even the 'great self-proclaimed sheik' bowed to political pressure to save his butt. By the way, please demonstrate how Dr. Sina 'kicked my sorry ass"? I certainly do not believe he did with his juvenile ranting. He actually demonstrated his narrowness of views. First he assumed without reading my very short argument that I was a Muslim. Only after he read the whole argument and realized that I was not–because I clearly stated it–did he tell me how ignorant of Islam I am. I readily admitted I am not a religious scholar–I have read the Qur'an and much of the Hadith literature–at least the translations of them. I have documented how Tatar reformers used these text to reconcile Islam with modernity and civil rights, but I am a historian of Modern Central Asian history, not the Islamic religion. So I found it amusing to say the least that Dr. Sina not only assumed much but wrote in an uncritical, narrow sort of way which seemed to me the purpose was to entertain the choir and not to engage in an honest debate. I must say that I have found many more fruitful debates here with many more worthy opponents than I have with Dr. Sina who has proven to me at least to be a liar and fraud. His "Challenge" is specious at best and an outright fraud at worse. According to the rules in order to win one must prove to him that Muhammad was sent by God or that his accusations about Muhammad are false. As I pointed out in these comments, there is much doubt to the legitimacy of the hadith literature giving an accurate picture of early 7th century Arabia. Without real evidence–how can Dr. Sina support his claims? His answer–if it is good enough for the followers of the 'cult' it is good enough for me. Logical right? To disprove Islam he needs to rely on their texts and not only that, he needs to ignore the historical evidence in deference to the texts that prove his points! So you need to believe the texts of Islam in order to disprove it is a religion, but a total and face value reading also requires you then to accept that Muhammad was indeed God's prophet. But of course, what does not fit Dr. Sina's worldview can be discarded and only the parts that of the texts that support his views are taken. Nice, it would be easy to write a PhD if these rules were allowed–I could cherry pick my sources–state that these are valid and those aren't because that is just what I think. My various drafts wouldn't have come back to be with lists of new sources to look at just to validate the sources I already used…. Thanks again for the insults, I'm sure you feel better now that you had the opportunity to belittle me but not seriously engage in a conversation.

  162. prottier

    Ibn Kammuna says,

    "I wonder if you ever thought of accusing anyone who believes Islam is true a Nazi. This is what they are in their core beliefs. Islam has a supremacist core values. It wants to subjugate all others. Yet you come here and accuse people here of promoting a Nazi-like agenda."

    I have written before on my distaste of Islamic militants. Those who use Islam to commit crimes against humanity. Indeed, any group that wishes to subjugate others, or enslave them is no friend of mine. bin Laden is very focused on the America and believes because we are a democracy, that citizens are responsible for their government's actions and therefore are guilty of killing people throughout the world with its vast military. I abhor all violence and anyone who calls for indiscriminate killing is little more than a lowly thug. But what I don't see him as genocidal, at least from what I read of his writings. He is careful to posit his rhetoric as a defensive manner because the Qur'an does have a set of rules for fighting. If, however, bin Laden began to claim he wished to wipe the Jews of the world out or Christians or any group because of their ethnicity of beliefs then certainly he would be a Nazi. Hamas is Nazi-like, but this is not Islam, it is a modern nationalist fight. Hamas simply hijacked Islam and used it as its tool of legitimacy. In Central Asia after the break up of the Soviet Union many Islamic groups formed. All were outlawed and forced underground. After a resulting civil war the IRP (Islamic Renaissance Party of Tajikistan) was finally given permission to register and run in elections in Tajikistan. It won many seats in parliament and in having to solve real problems in the poorest state to emerge from the SU it quickly had to backtrack on many of its more radical platforms–you see they really don't work very well in the real world. My point, Islam is not from the Devil and the Reverend Swank (he use to write here long ago) would say–it, in itself is not evil, it is how it is applied. Centuries of historical evidence shows that it is flexible like other religions. Had it not been it would have been gone long ago. My issue with this group is you all point a finger at the religion and not on those who interpret it. Bin Laden thinks violent jihad is every Muslims duty–not so according to most Muslims and history bears this point out. Even when taken over by the pagan Mongols in the 13th century, many prominent Islamic scholars wrote justifications of how to peacefully coexist with these heathen rulers and why it was okay to be ruled by non-Muslims. Juvani compares the yasa (Mongol law code) to the pure and true sharia which Muslims had wondered away from. Interesting how the 'true' Islam you all talk about is so easily set aside time and time again in history. In fact, 'true Islam' as described on this site is extremely rare in history. As a repeat, all groups promoting global jihad are all underground groups–that means there cannot be a true Islamic state in the entire world since not a single Muslim government advocates global jihad.

  163. Ibn Kammuna

    Ladies and Gents
    Please use a polite language. There is no need for it. So what if someone has different views than you. You can still have a nice discussion about things. Dr. Prottier is a nice person, and educated man too. He proved that through his debate and his many responses. Frankly, if I was debating Sina, I wouldn't have bothered to respond to so many "uncalled for" comments. He did.
    And what is this nonsense about doubting his credentials? Have sense people. Stop bickering and have an educated discussion instead.

    To Dr. Prottier. Thanks for the comment. This may be my last on this debate. I think you and I don't view Islam the same way. You are more interested in its history, and how it "formed itself" in different cultures at different times. I understand that. That is your research area. That however, does not make Islam proper (Qur'an, hadith and Sirat) a good belief system. It is an Evil system. It cannot be equated to Christianity, Hinduism,..etc. It is barbaric and inhuman. The other point I want to repeat here is that FFI folks do not promote, advocate or support anything that has to do with hurting any human being physically, be it a Muslim or not. I know you and I don't agree on this one, but there is a big difference between a belief system and a person. Would you not scrutinize and criticise the KKK beliefs? If you do, you will hurt the feelings of those KKK members. My point is that beliefs have to be analyzed and put under scrutiny and trashed if found unfit. Islam has many such beliefs. From this angle, history is irrelevant to a great degree. I go to the original sources that Muslims take to be infallible, and highly reliable. Your (or my) views about what constitute an acceptable historical evidence does not matter here. What matters is that Muslims believe them.
    Have a good day brother. I am glad you have a thick skin to put up with some uncalled for comments. Take care

  164. Demsci

    Dr Rottier,

    People who come to this site, who agree with what it is doing, are very divers. There are those agnosts-atheists-freethinkers, like you, then many Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, 4 categories of faiths and I suppose Jewish people and divers, so say 6 faiths for convenience sake. We can see that their common goal is democracy to keep flourishing in the 21st century, to liberate ever more people who are under tyranny.

    By far the most people of these 6 faiths only want to live and let live and they have the right to defend themselves to the threat they perceive from a part of the followers of the 7th faith, Islam. And to address the Muslims about some of them dominating unjustly the followers of the other faiths. As the Muslims are welcome to address the other-faith-followers if it happens vice-versely, like in Bosnia-Hercegovina in the 90s. We want to be honestly listening to Islamic complaints too, everything we want we want to do reciprocally, like in a 2-way-street.

    We feel it is a good policy that we let ourselves be well informed of the beliefs and the actions of the followers of Islam, in past and present You inform us a lot too, thank you. You can discuss with us, (and I think better than with "the other side" too) and differ with us about how real or big the threat is, but we still would be rather safe than sorry. And the bullying by Muslims of followers of the other 6 faiths is actually still going on in Islamic countries. But if your analysis about no Islamic threat turns out to be right we will only be much relieved. But in the meantime we cultivate a proper, moral response.

    You may also differ with us about our response, if it is moral and effective or not. You like us to respect the Muslims by not hurting their feelings, inciting them against us. You think you cannot condemn a religion and not its adherents. Well, I feel that the other 6 faiths already abundantly proved that you can and still have a well-functioning society. Only Muslims want to exempt their religion, holy book, prophet from criticism and yes, insult. The other faiths in overwhelming majority do allow criticism and insult on their religions, theories, ways of life and still cooperate mostly very well. They sure have had much criticism and insult to endure from Muslims too and they are taking that non-violently too.

    Apart from criticism the followers of these faiths also give and get much praise and support, also to Muslims. Between them they mostly have a win-win-intention in terms of trade, providing longer life-span, more freedom, prosperity and happiness for an ever higher percentage of mankind. And yes, many Muslims do this too.

    Yes, the goal of faith freedom international may be provoking Muslims, but never with violence or inciting to it, only to let them feel emotion, get the interest, debate, get informed, keep thinking, comparing. Eventually improving many of those participating or observing to improve their thoughts, even ways of thinking, exactly the same as you said when debating us. And you did not spare our feelings too much, did you?

    Perhaps you underestimate the possibility of change in the young generation, the onlookers of the debate here, from the followers of all faiths. Perhaps you forget that when a religion and the followers of it are exposed as sometimes detrimental to other humans (and themselves) that this actually might sometimes be true and still happening. But THIS time the victims of this maltreatment often speak English and use the internet, and they know that their oppressors have enemies, who can be their allies. They now can know the counter-arguments to the propaganda of these oppressors, they can get hope, fight back.

    And the oppressors, who hitherto often had monopoly on information, ruthlessly wiping out all opposition, can also know about their victims' potential knowledge about the accusations made against them. And this alone could cause them to behave better so as not to give more cause for these accusations. Because they are aware of being scrutinized and compared with others carefully now.

    And you know that every one is welcome to do the same scrutinizing and criticizing AND insulting to us, so we act with good conscience here.

  165. Ibn Kammuna

    Oh, I have to write again brother Prottier after seeing your comment above.
    Mark Gabriel was an Azhar professor. he specialized in the history of Islam. he was a Hafiz and a Mosque Imam too. He reached a point where he left Islam and was fired from his Azhar Job and Mosque. he stayed with no faith for about a year. Through some experiences he became a Christian. His father used a gun and shot at him while running after him. Others also attacked him and he was injured and put in hospital. Finally he fled to South Africa..eventually he ended up in the united states with a religious Asylum status (thank God for this great country). he wrote some books in English. One of them is on Jihad. I recommend you read some of his books if you have time. I know you being a history professor demands ungodly amount of readings as it is. I say that because you do not think Jihad is a universal declaration in Islam. I believe it is, until the whole world is ruled by Islam.
    Also, do not look at governments only when you look at Islam. Look at movements. Thats the right way I think. Muslim Brothers do have a global eye to rule the whole world. You say Hamas does not represents Islam. Well, tell me who does? Hamas does represent Islam to a great degree. That is why they are such an Evil group of people. The more a person emulates Muhammad, the more he/she is an Evil person.
    Brother, I need to stop. So many thoughts. I enjoyed the discussion though. My adopted son (by the way I do have an adopted son, and adoption is banned in Islam because of Muhammad's lust to his daughter-in-Law if you did not know) needs me. i have to feed him some formula brother.
    Take care. i enjoyed this discussion. Peace
    IK

  166. Marie

    londonspirit wrote:

    Why doesnt ali sina show all the muslims getting degrees, or the muslims spreading humanitarian aid, lke islamic relif, safe hands, islamic aid, interpal and so on. These good actions by majority of muslim doesnt exist in his eyes but when someone who is muslim does a bad action he gets excited and decides to post on here.

    Do any of these charities give humanitarian aid to nonmuslims or only to Muslims? If these charities give aid to Muslims then they are not doing good since they are only catering to their own.

    MOOOOOOOOO if you even bothered to research tempory marraige dont exist, You may see it alot in countries like Iran but they do it for their own satisfaction.

    Temporary marriage exists in India where Muslims marry their 6 year old daughters to old Saudi men.

  167. Marie

    Ibn Kammuna wrote:

    Anyone can accuse this site. Your analogy is flawed anyway. We do not advocate hating Muslim or harming them. We believe they are mistaken and need to leave that evil cult. This is why Sina and others debate people. FFI motto-top of the page-states its core belief. FFI is against Hate not faith. It is against Islam not Muslims. Most people here are apostates. The have Muslim families and friends all around them. In effect, you are accusing us that we are like the Nazis.

    Agree.

  168. Kinana

    Mr Rottier

    Thank you for your various responses. I am reading and learning.

    You say:
    ‘I relay the basic tenants of belief… [of Islam]’. Please tell me what are these basic tenants of belief? And where do you source them and their meaning.

    ‘He [Osama bin Laden] is careful to posit his rhetoric as a defensive manner because the Qur’an does have a set of rules for fighting.’

    ‘Defensive’? A few quotes might then be of interest to you.

    ‘…it is, in fact, part of our religion to impose our particular beliefs upon others. Whoever doubts this, let him turn to the deeds of the Companions when they raided the lands of the Christians and Omar [the second Caliph] imposed upon them the conditions of dhimmi[tude]…we are to force people by the power of the sword to [our] particular understandings, customs and conditions, all in order to induce debasement and humility, just like Allah commanded when he said

    Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (Qur'an 9:29)

    ‘Does Islam, or does it not, force people by the power of the sword to submit to its authority corporeally if not spiritually? Yes. There are only three choices in Islam: either willing submission; or payment of the Jizya, through physical though not spiritual, submission to the authority of Islam; or the sword – for it is not right to let him [an infidel] live. The matter is summed up for every person alive: either submit, or live under the suzerainty of Islam, or die.’

    You also say:
    ‘Bin Laden thinks violent jihad is every Muslims duty–not so according to most Muslims and history bears this point out.
    ‘Interesting how the ‘true’ Islam you all talk about is so easily set aside time and time again in history.’

    It seems history and the examples of Muslims throughout history for you IS Islam. You reject the source-based approach. Right? But this takes us back to my first question above about your understanding of Islam’s ‘basic tenants of belief.’ From my little understanding of Islamic history there has been a constant thread comprised of Al-Qaeda types for the last 1400 years, alongside the reforming and reformed Muslims you speak of. If I am right how would you choose or know which group is presenting or following true Islam?

    Thanks

  169. Ali Sina

    Prottier said:
    "Why did Muhammad’s ideas catch on? More than likely there were many ‘prophets’ seeking to change society in Arabia at the time. In the time of Jesus 1000s of cult religions abounded, yet christianity gained credence. In Arabia 100s of cult religions existed, some others were also based on the Abrahamic faiths, yet Islam persevered–how? Why? These are the questions historians ask.

    Ali Sina and those on this site do not ask these questions. Instead they do try to put Muhammad on the couch and psychoanalyze him. "

    I asked those questions and I found the answere. I wrote a book to share them with the world. Please do not get entangled in these debates. Take a short leave and rread my book. By the time you finish it your thinking about Islam will be radically changed. I am not delusional in saying this. I saw this happen to many people.

  170. Demsci

    About Hitler & Nazi's and Jews.

    The Nazi's had crazy unproven accusations against the Jews, who somehow had much power behind the scenes, who were trying to dominate th world, according to them. But they really could not prove this. They looked at race, more than at creed, which is stupid, because race people are born with, creed they can choose.

    The Nazi's went on to found a horrible totalitarian state, with disastrous consequences for many humans. In 1924-1933, when Hitler was a public figure, and his party rising, there were only a few who spoke against him and his movement. Although Hitlers followers, like the SA, showed a lot of violence.

    FFI criticizes Islam and the behavior of part of its followers, very numerous and obviously powerful, not mysteriously in a conspiracy. FFI clearly is not against anyone's race. FFI is firmly in favor of democracy and no totalitarian or violent danger whatsoever comes from it.

    On the other hand, many totalitarian states are Islamic and they often practice brutal oppression, like the Islamic republic of Iran. And many clerical leaders of Islam have condemned democracy as a manmade system, as opposed their own god-given one. This is also what the ayatollahs said when they came to power.

    So Dr. Rottier really resembles a bit someone who in 1924-1933 would criticize and berate those few active vocal warners and protesters against the rise of the Nazi's.

  171. Marie

    Demsci wrote:

    The Nazi’s had crazy unproven accusations against the Jews, who somehow had much power behind the scenes, who were trying to dominate th world, according to them. But they really could not prove this. They looked at race, more than at creed, which is stupid, because race people are born with, creed they can choose.

    There was no proof to the Nazis accusations. This was merely propaganda to incite the German populace to persecute the Jews.

    In regards to prottier's accusations, we are not creating propaganda against the Muslims. There is evidence to support our accusations ( stoning rape victims in Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries, 13,000+ terrorists attacks since 9/11, creating no-go zones in infidel countries, and exc. )

    So Dr. Rottier really resembles a bit someone who in 1924-1933 would criticize and berate those few active vocal warners and protesters against the rise of the Nazi’s.

    He sounds more like the ideologue morons that run the U.S. government and academia.

  172. prottier

    Thanks Ibn Kammuna for the discussion. I truly did not mean to equate you or posters to this site to Nazis–what I warned about is simply attacking a faith and calling it evil sooner or later paints the people who follow this faith with the same brush and that is the slippery slope of which I referred. By the way, I have 2 adopted sons–ironically they were adopted from Kazakstan, which is at least in theory, a majority Muslim country. They are great boys!!, Take care!

  173. peacebewithyou

    "peacebewithyou,
    Thank you for your insults. I will not turn in my PhD, it was hard earned. "

    You can keep your PhD but next time do not disclose it.

    "You proved my point exactly in the Saudi case. The royals don’t follow Islam do they? As you said a mufti (and actually more than one–87 were removed from mosques in the early 1990s) but the Saudis used force AGAINST Islam and then justified their action by appointing other clerics to write fatwas to justify their action. Thank you–this is what I meant by looking at religions through the lens of history. If Islam was the murderous cult it is portrayed to be wouldn’t the royals give up their worldly pleasures for a happy afterlife? "

    I never said, Islam is all about murderous cult. The founder of islam has set multiple examples and one of them has to do with greed. Haven’t you read ali sina reply yet or other folks replying to you.

    "After all the rich Saudi bin Laden gave up his comforts to live in caves in Afghanistan–"

    So… and for what. He used his money to bring misery to all Afghanistan and brain wash many humans. He used his money for murder and greed too. He did it for islam.

    "this is whole claim to legitimacy, but when push came to shove and the Taliban were going to expel him he bowed down to a Deobandi cleric, Omar and declared that Omar was the heir to the caliph."

    This is how islam is. Muslim does anything for self interest but shows true color when the same person becomes powerful. It do not matter who the conflict muslim has.

    "He must have practically had to throw up because this was clearly against his ideal of Islam."
    You do not make any sense to me. I guess I have to wait for you to read ali sina book.

    "So even the ‘great self-proclaimed sheik’ bowed to political pressure to save his butt. "
    I agree. I read somewhere else too that Muhammad also said nice verses when he was weak. I guess saving butt is top priority here.

    "By the way, please demonstrate how Dr. Sina ‘kicked my sorry ass”?"

    I will wait for you to read his book and then for your words of wisdom about the book

    " I certainly do not believe he did with his juvenile ranting. He actually demonstrated his narrowness —-drafts wouldn’t have come back to be with lists of new sources to look at just to validate the sources I already used…."

    Just another ranting from an empty vessel. In India there is a saying – “empty vessel make loud noise”.

    " Thanks again for the insults, I’m sure you feel better now that you had the opportunity to belittle me but not seriously engage in a conversation."

    Well my aim was for readers and I have choosed you as an example. I already gave you my inputs. Have you done with ali sina book????

  174. Marie

    prottier wrote:

    By the way, I have 2 adopted sons–ironically they were adopted from Kazakstan, which is at least in theory, a majority Muslim country. They are great boys!!, Take care!

    They are great boys because of the people who took them in and raised them as their own.

  175. prottier

    Actually rijiv12, I am not wondering what hit me since there was little logic in the attack, I was surprised by the juvenile level that the reply was written at–Sina compares anal sex to Islam and assumes I took it up the ass? Grow up! If you wish to just shout at each other that is fine too–I grew up in a blue collar family in a blue collar town and can easily get down to this infantile level if this is what you like. But let's try reason for a little while longer.

    I have lived in a Muslim country for over a year, I met many Muslims, none of whom tried to kill me or convert me to their religion. My point is there is a vast difference between the narrow reading that Sina and these commentators have made and the reality, that Islamic culture gave the world many things and only a narrow few promote violent jihad. The Qur'an explicitly states when and why Muslims can go to war and it is always defensive. Before Muhammad died Islam did not conquer outside Arabia and by his death only consolidated approximately 1/2 of the peninsula. Only after Abu Bakr and Omar came to power did Islam begin to advocate conquest, but after it expanded to its fullest, it had to again rethink its position and no longer did its philosophers write about the duty of conquest. These scholars used the same sources that you use to promote peace within their borders and with their neighbors. This is no different than other religions have done. Charlemagne conquered as far as he could justifying his conquests on Catholicism. Does this mean that all Catholics wish to take over the world in a bloody crusade?

    I guess I don't understand the comments that because I do not despise Islam that I am somehow defending it. I am simply saying that in the world, the 1.2 billion muslims do not want to kill and convert all non-Muslims. And it is not because they are too stupid to understand their religion, they understand and can find the arguments about living with others equally. All religions have advocated stupid things and have done horrendous things. This group is focused on the reports of Muhammad and his deeds in the 7th century. Why not look at the Jewish zealots and the actions of radical settlers in Palestine who wish to force Palestinians out of their home of kill them? (ethnic cleansing anyone–and yes I know about the Arab atrocities in Darfur and wish that idiocy would stop as well.) Why not look at the actions and deeds of the first Christian Emperor Constantine? Or the writings of the luminous St. Augustine? You know, the part that since Christians now had the power what they should do with those who were not Christian or Christian enough? Or the Spanish reconquista–in 1492 the Spanish forcibly converted the Jews and Muslims of Spain then put them on a ship to sail across the straight to North Africa, when the ship was half way across the Spanish sunk the ship, killing all on board. Why? Because they rationalized that if the ship made it to Africa, the newly converted Christians would recant and then be sentenced to hell–so by killing them while they were still Christians, the Moors and Jews would be welcomed by Jesus in heaven. What a beautiful thought! I know I am an evil leftist who is fascinated with religion and nationalism (which mirrors religion), but if you want to understand something you don't just focus on the sources of its origin, you look at how it manifested itself through history. There is a reason that all major Islamic scholars issued fatwas against terrorism after 9/11. The main reason is that their 'masters' the rulers of their countries asked them to, but more important was their own survival. If some uneducated lunatic like bin Laden can challenge their authority then they will be in trouble. You all are mistaking the forest for the trees. Some of the great prophets of Judaism and Christianity have done horrible things and it is recorded in the Torah and bible. Some adherents of both faiths latch on to these deeds and think that is how 'real' Jews or Christians are suppose to act and they do horrible things. Surely Saudi Arabia, modern Iran and many more despotically ruled states abuse their interpretation of Islam–but few Muslims believe that Wahhabiism or twelver Shiism are correct paths anyway. (Although Shiism has the ability to be much more flexible than Wahabiism.)

    Sorry for rambling, please let the hate begin. Call me stupid, ignorant, etc… I know I was brainwashed in those stupid universities, my Muslim friends are probably right now plotting to kill or convert me. They all aspire to be pedophiles–although, Western, white, Christian males tend to have the biggest problem with this. They keep the sex trade alive in third world countries like Tailand–but that is just a tangent.

    By the way, even though the hadith literature paints Muhammad as a 'pedophile' no where in the Qur'an does it say that he had sex with young girls. My point was that this was an ideal of the society (not unlike prominent Romans having young boys) and this is projected on Muhammad. In other words, as a historian, there is no good evidence that this occurred. Now forcible marriage, buying of wives, especially young wives, has occurred throughout the world up into the 20th century. But it is ruled much more by culture than by religion. A century ago it was not uncommon for Americans and Europeans to marry off their 12-14 year old daughters. This is still legal in some Southern states in the US. To me this is morally repugnant, but I don't condemn my country because of its past practices.

  176. Ibn Kammuna

    Prottier, brother
    Wow, this is great, I mean adopting some children. There is so much need for adoptive parents. We actually adopted 3 altogether, from DSS here in the US.
    I am glad to know you are an adoptive parent too. God knows we need people like you everywhere. There are so many kids out there who just need a loving home, and need to know they are loved, wanted, and do matter.
    Peace

  177. Demsci

    Going further with your logic, but I am only speculating;

    If the wars where Muslims were and are engaged in are not caused in any way by Islamic teachings (which are only used as an excuse), but by other causes, then if we try to mend these other causes, are we to be allowed to study Islamic Holy Scriptures intensely and say whatever we want about them? And then it is not in any way justified for Muslims solely on the motivation of insult of religion to start wars? I mean if at the same time we do right by them in all other aspects in our behavior towards them? As best we can?

  178. peacebewithyou

    "prottier Says:

    May 30th, 2009 at 2:25 am
    Marie says,

    “They are great boys because of the people who took them in and raised them as their own.”

    Thank you"

    I think you missed one more important point here. I am not going to explain it to you. goodluck Dr. P.

  179. ibrahim

    Its good to hear that prottier, has two adopted sons. Maybe he is not aware that Muslims frown on adoption and consider it as a stupid pratice.

  180. pedomo

    Mr. Prottier,

    This assumes you are not a Muslim in disguise, practicing taqqiya. Lots of Muslims do that on the internet, hiding under a Christian name and furtively attacking other religions.

    What you overlook is the fact this website is mainly here to expose Islam, i.e., to expose the false claims of Muslims that Islam is the only true religion, the Quran is the word of God, Mohammed is God's prophet, there are scientific miracles in the Quran etc. So Mr. Sina's and others' writings are consistent with that purpose, much like what you read from an Islamic website is consistent with the purpose of Islamic apologists, i.e. to defend and promote Islam and the claims of Muslims. As they have made known, Mr. Sina and other writers here are not against individual muslims, but against the corrupt influence the Quran and Mohammed have on Muslims. They also expose the truth of the claim that Islam is a religion of peace by scrutinizing the violent acts committed by muslims all over the world and the verses in the Quran that support such acts. And they do a wonderful job!

    It is true lots of Muslims are well behaved under normal circumstances, but when it comes to religious issues, Muslims in general will stick together even when their own are in the wrong and blame Israel, the West, the US and so on for every conceivable issues. And almost all muslims seem to be Nazi sympathizers.

    By asking questions like "Why did Muhammad’s ideas catch on? ", you are implying that there is something definitely good and superior about Muhammad's ideas. Of course some of his ideas, some his own and some borrowed from OT and NT, were good though none were new. Nonetheless, many of his ideas are really bad and evil. Initially Islam spread because simple-minded, ignorant and gullible people (like people who converts to Islam nowadays) accepted his claims and ideas. Next he and his followers spread Islam by sword. High birth rate and marriages into other religions also contributed to the spread of Islam. In old days, Islam was mainly spread by sword and high birth rate, but now it is by high birth rate.

    If you believe that Hadiths do not tell the real history of Mohammed, what does? The Quran? The focus of the Quran is not Mohammed's bio, but what Mohammed preceived as Allah's own words.

  181. rationalist

    #202… Prottier should be aware that his adopted son's wife will become halal to himself in case of a divorce. Dear Prottier, just like Muhammad please do not cast evil eye on your adopted sons' wives. If you do not want to believe in hadith, then Quran (33.37) itself narrates this story: Behold! Thou didst say to one who had received the grace of Allah and thy favour: "Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah." But thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest: thou didst fear the people, but it is more fitting that thou shouldst fear Allah. Then when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee: in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And Allah's command must be fulfilled.

    Allah ho Akbar

  182. rajiv12

    Mr. Rottier is an historian so according to him everything should be seen in a historical context and under the purview of history. All the atrocities committed in the name of Islam are due to historical blunders, historical misgivingins and injustice meted out to the Muslims and it is somewhat justified. He even questions the authenticity of the hadiths and sidetracks the issues under discussion. He still has not answered my question. So the miserable creatures called Dhimmis are not worth mentioning. I suppose again it has something to do with history.Thank you for your opinions Mr Rottier. It was a pleasure to read them.

  183. pedomo

    #13 Northern Bear:"As for hatred, even Ali Sina shows it in his vociferous seeming hatred of Barak Obama; hell, people even gave George Bush a chance to prove himself before they despised him. Sure, Obama may prove to be a terrible President (worse even than George Bush), but he should (at least) be given a chance."

    True. Just because he had a Muslim background and is against the Iraq war, some people literally hate him. The only problems with him so far, except those allmost all politians have, is his eagerness to please all kinds of groups and his being tricked (just like George Bush) by Muslims into believing that Islam is a peaceful religion.

  184. Raisin Head

    #206 It is not just Islam that has scared Pres. Obama, it is Islamomarxism. Even Russia has said so and they are saying that it will destroy america.

  185. Raisin Head

    #207 scarred

  186. unfortunate

    Dear Dr. Prottier,

    You seem to have missed my points. I shall try and give you a few instances –

    >While living in the -stans, the Muslims I engaged with clearly found pedophilia >abhorrent
    Did I or anyone else ever say ALL muslims are paedophiles? Is it not egregious enough that here you have a religion that not only condones, but actively promotes paedophilia? While westerners (there are deviants in every society) have to take expensive overseas vacations, do you think it is a great idea for muslims to have a religiously sanctioned cheap alternative at home? Is that what you are saying? Incidentally, arabs come to India to marry young girls, and it is only rarely that any of them is caught. See http://n-cat.blogspot.com/2006/08/poverty-drives-

    >last Caliph for example, issuing a fatwa for all Muslims of the world to engage >in jihad and there was NO following. Even the CIA sent radical Islamic audio >tapes and books into Soviet Central Asia in the 1980s asking the Muslims to >fight a jihad with their Afghani Muslim brothers
    Sir, (we call teachers Sir), I do not know whether to laugh or cry. Ever heard of Kashmir? 300,000 Hindus driven out of their homesteads. Thousands more raped, maimed and killed in the name of Jihad. Same is the case with all areas of muslim conflict, including Britain. Please Dr., for Pete’s sake, you have cited the EXCEPTIONS!!!!!!

    >only after the appearance of sufiism did Islam spread to the masses.
    I am not very sure about this. Ali Sina, could you please throw some light? Sufism seems to be a later-day reaction to the extreme forms of islam. Incidentally, I am a great enthusiast of sufi music from the sub-continent, and it is my ardent desire to one day visit the tomb of Baba Bulle Shah (near Lahore, Pakistan) and lay a Chaddar and flowers on his Mazaar.

    >Yes, this is exactly what Muslim reformers say, so why don’t you as a group >help finance reformed muftis to build madrasas?
    Are you being disingenuous? Finance? Against the might of Saudi Petro dollars? Can anyone even consider this option seriously?

    >So acts of violence between Pakistanis and Indians only deals with religion?
    My learned friend, the point I was trying to make was that the Pakistani TV channels totally discounted the possibility of jihadi terrorism. They instead brought in some experts who tried to argue that it was a Hindu-Jewish plot. Don’t you see how juvenile this sounds and the experts utterly deluded?

    >it is all in the interpretation
    The road to hell, it seems, is indeed paved with good interpretations. Now, how many instances of deluded ignorance and foolishness have I cited in these comments? Dr. Prottier, forget the madarsas, so called great scientists have fallen prey to this vile propaganda. In this web-site you can find a recent debate between Ali Sina and a decorated Indian agriculture scientist, Dr.Wahid. Please go to his website http://www.islamicscienceforum.org/ . The “idiots who disavow science “ are not in a minority. Systematic indoctrination begins at schools. As a teacher of history, this review of “Islamisation of Pakistani Social Studies Textbooks “ at http://www.thesouthasian.org/archives/2009/islami… might interest you. I have read the book and shocking is a mild word to describe it. Also see BBC article “US concern at Pakistan textbooks” at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/41672

    I repeat the main thrust of my argument –
    Saudi Arabia has been spending billions of dollars to foster in this world an intolerant and depraved interpretation of their religion.
    A majority of educated as well as illiterate muslims world-wide have fallen prey to this cruel and unjust version. As you rightly say, most do not understand the haditth, but are gullible enough to believe the loudest authority, which in the present times happens to be wahabi.
    Ask any Indian – the number of bearded muslims and veiled women on the streets has increased in geometric proportions in recent years. Before you respond, let me tell you it is fine with me what you wear, but it also means that you wear what you wear because you believe in this fundamentalist and obscurantist thinking, that you are prepared to be led back to medieval times.
    Please remember that however distorted an interpretation, it has to be backed by a kernel of truth in the original sources. Therefore, it does seem that the problem is Islam. Unless the entire clergy unite and choose to disregard the terrible verses and their abased interpretations, you are going to have complete distortion of knowledge accompanied by jihadi terrorism. Until then, Ali Sina and his band have a crucial role to play – to show to muslims what their religion really is – one that is susceptible to so radical an interpretation as to lead entire nations to extreme backwardness, deny human rights, and repudiate all that is noble and beautiful in this world.

    BTW, I am also an adopted parent, so welcome to the gang, and you too Ibn Kammuna.

  187. roman

    Dr.Rottier,

    I agree that you are an agnostic and a historian. I know that historians look for primary sources to collect information and not for secondary sources. I incline to think that you have considered Quran a primary source and Hadiths as a secondary source and you have neglected the hadiths. Apart from that I have my doubts whether you have taken Islam as a whole; it's ultimate direction. Is it a positive direction or negative direction? What is the driving force of Islam?

    Have you considered the fact that none of the Islamic countries has real democracy in its broader sense of the word?

    Do you know that the Western Europe struggles with large Muslim population that demand the introduction of Sharia Laws? At least did you hear the speeches of Geert Wilders in America?

    Usually historians have special skills in taking inferences and deductions. What do you think of 9/11, Spanish Train bombings, 7/7 Bali bombings, 26/11 and other 13,000 terrorists attacks?

    Why should the majority of Muslims live in abject poverty? Why should 65% of women in Islam remain illiterate?

    Why Palestine, Kashmir, Southern Thailand, Mindanao Island in Philippines and other dozen countries remain in a deadlock (where Muslims demand for specific rights) while Northern Island, South Africa settled their dispute and live in peace?

    I do not know whether you have asked these questions yourself? However these questions were pestering our minds. We did not know the answer until we stumbled at FFI. Dr. Ali Sina explained by quoting hadiths that Mohammad, the prophet of Islam, was a pedophile, a narcisst, a rapist, a mass murderer.
    Now we find the correlation between the behaviour of Mohammad and the behaviour of his followers.

    There is a beautiful verse in the Bible “Not everybody seeing sees. Not everybody hearing hears.”

  188. Raisin Head

    #165 Londonspirit What happened to the African mates you claimed would come here. Are they afraid of a female infidel or did you lie and not have any African mates.

    Oh by the way, as I said you get black convict converts as the 4 black convict Muslims arrested for tryin to blow up a synagogue. Wonder why?

  189. Raisin Head

    #180 Muta is Shia temporary marriages
    Misyar is sunni Marriages temporary
    In Islam the prostitutes marry their johns for an hour and then the johns say I divorced you 3 times and they go to the next clients. chcek out Muslims marriages in Philadelphia in DANIEL PIPES

  190. Demsci

    Well, it is better safe than sorry. We could be wrong, as many have argued, but we do see a threat from Muslims. We do see Followers of Islam dominating, bullying the followers of other faiths already in Islamic countries and even beyond, in past and present. We have documented extensively why we perceive that threat. And now we see Muslim Demographics on YouTube and are shocked. And we are cultivating a good moral, effective response, which is still developing.

    What FFI wants, I think, is the fairest system mankind has yet devised, democracy, in the 21st century, practised worldwide. Any Muslim who supports this, against those who practice some sort of dictatorship or aspire to it, is most welcome as an ally. If a large majority of Muslims would support this goal, interest in Islam from us would drop like a stone. Hence also these exposures, or as Muslims and their defenders see it, unjust accusations, would dramatically decrease.

    Dr. Rottier, in his posts 73, 149, 174, 176, 195 already said truly admirable things about the solution of democracy, I am most grateful to him for that. Yes, suppressing the Algerian electoral outcome in # 1990, deposing Mossadeq in Iran in 1953, supporting "friendly" dictators like Mubarak and Musharraf and such strategies and tactics were in my view stupid and very regrettable mistakes the West made in the 2nd half of the 20th century.

    The strategy of FFI is a very sound one, I think. Namely giving information about Islam and the conduct of its followers in past and present. Yes, provoking Muslims to react, but so also to get emotional, think hard, compare etc. And also letting perpetrators and victims of bullying, oppression know that third parties are on to their practices and suffering. This is something at the heart of democracy, with free speech, independant justice system.

    I agree with Dr Rottier and many Muslims that FFI indeed gives one-sided information. FFI may indeed give the greater context, of the more benevolent sides of Islam and its followers in past and present. Yes, if Islamic Holy Scriptures did have influence, much good influence was also there. But the main goal of FFI is to go forward to Guaranteed International Freedom of Faith, fair competition between faiths everywhere, in the 21st century. And its strategy is to warn about possible enemies of that and to expose their beliefs, designs and actions.

    A big part of the debates on this forum and in many other places is about: Accusations, or "Prosecution" of Islam. It is described in detail how evil Islam is and how it is the cause of so much bad behavior of its followers, in past and present. And then Muslims or friends of Islam exonerate the Holy Scriptures of bad influence in all possible ways. They often compare the conduct of Muslims with that of the followers of other faiths, saying they do not blame these faiths for what their followers did, then asking us why do we blame Islam for what Muslims do.

    I concede that after they do this, at least for me it is very hard to honestly still uphold the charges against Islam itself. Although I still think Ali Sina and many visitors here do an excellent job with it.

    But I now think that people, especially Historians, may doubt accusations of Islam, exonerating it, but also just as well may doubt ANY POSSIBLE POSITIVE CONSEQUENCE of the emergence and existence of Islamic holy scriptures in the past, present and future.

    Think about it, Islam is followed by Muslims because it is the truth from God and because it has beneficial influence, right? If we are refuted so heavily when we try to see the detrimental influence of Islam, why don't we let the Muslims and their friends have a very hard time explaining ANY truth or beneficial use of Islam?

    This is something WE can doubt. And if we are right in saying; OK, we cannot prove there was bad influence from Islam, it all came from different sources, like there was no bad influence from the other faiths. So by the same token, YOU cannot prove there was any GOOD influence from Islam whatsoever either, we can refute THAT until the end of time.

    And if we are right in this then Islam is really an irrelevant religion, not worthy of following or adhering to, because people can not really prove it has much truth and beneficial use in it. Every time you try to prove this, we will argue that it were the individuals who perpetrated the good acts, interpreted Islam in an overly beneficial way, that it was the culture, not Islam, that was the cause of the so-called beneficial influence of this religion.

    You can compare Islam with other faiths as much as you like, in past and present. But we already have this Democratic system in which society is organized better than when it is organized according to Islamic principles. The comparison between those 2 systems of organizing society is the appropriete one, all the other comparisons are really irrelevant.

  191. Kinana

    Mr Rottier

    Before you respond to my previous message (#182) here is another. You can respond to both in your time.

    Let me see if I understand you correctly.

    It seems to me, since you do not rely on the written sources (Qur'an, hadith, Sira) nor are you that keen on the theology of those sources as settled by the four major schools, to you Islam is whatever a Muslim tells you Islam is.

    Islam is whatever any group of Muslims have done through out history in the name of Islam.

    Islam is whatever your nice Muslim friends tell you Islam is.

    To you the practice of Islam by Muslims is Islam.

    Am I wrong?

    If I am wrong then please tell me how you tell a Muslim that what they think Islam is, is not really Islam?

    Tell me how you survey an event or period in Islamic history and decide whether that reflects true Islam or is simply a bunch of Muslims making decisions and doing things which have nothing whatsoever to do with true Islam, which has nothing whatsoever to do with their belief system and what that belief system encourages and promotes?

    And how do you tell whether your nice Muslim friends are nice because of Islam or despite Islam. Are they nice because they choose to ignore certain bits in the written sources (Qur'an, hadith, Sira) or because, like what devout Muslims are supposed to do, they believe the whole of the Qur'an and try to follow the example of Mohammed?

    Thanks for your participation here.

  192. Ibn Kammuna

    Dear Unfortunate,
    thanks for the note. The world needs more and more adoptive parents. It is good to know you are helping in this great cause too.
    Take care brother

  193. Raisin Head

    Londonspirit at least the gir will not be a baby in blankets which allah showed to Mo.

    Islam is not an abrahamic religion as Abraham had no religion. Judaism is not from Abraham nor is Roman Christianity.

    Tell the truth, Islam is not a religion but Arab Imperialism. No religion need to rule the world. Let God do it. Grief if God is so great let im control the world,

  194. Demsci

    There could be some sort of Inter-faith-conference with Agnosts-Atheists-Freethinkers, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Divers (Zoroastrians also?) attending. They could reach an agreement to strive together for defense and expansion of democracy, human rights, golden rule, fair faith-competition everywhere.

    They could also reach an agreement that says that they will give each others' followers much cooperation, support and praise, but that they also allow all followers of all faiths to criticize, even insult, all other faiths, to their hearts content. That this does NOT mean degrading the followers of these faiths, at all.

    They could elaborate that faiths either have influence on human history or not. That without influence whatsoever the relevancy of a faith is at stake. If however, a faith did and does have influence on the beliefs, designs, actions of its followers, then that influence would include both bad and good parts, not just good parts OR just bad parts.

    Then followers of Islam can take their positions in regard to this, or perhaps followers of divers variations of Islam can do it.

  195. Marie

    prottier wrote:

    I know–idealistic and naive. Go ahead and hit me with it.
    BTW–the logic sarcasm was because I have a hard time seeing where I would come off as the Nazi sympathizer–don’t you know us leftists would never defend fascism, were to busy being useful idiots for communists and now I guess Muslims:-)

    I'm not an idealist, so we do not agree. I'm with Ali Sina in trying to bring down Islam, unlike him I don't think this could be done in 30 years, more like one to two hundred years. In the meanwhile I believe the free countries should put pressure on Islamic governments and penalize them for human rights violations, limit immigration, and exc. We should also find alternatives to oil since our oil money is being used to fund terrorists activities.

    As for leftists, fascism, and communism, only certain left-wingers promote these ideologies. There are leftists who don't support fascism and communism.

  196. Marie

    Demsci wrote:

    Oh, Dr Rottier,

    When you say: “It is not Islam, it is the interpretation” you negate, somehow, our criticisms on it. OK. But do you realize that that gives us an open door, to react to all praises, given by Muslims to Islam, all the supposed good that came from Islam, and Islam only, with saying that they also are null and void? That they also are only a question of Interpretation? Hence, we could well say: What on Earth is the use of this religion anyway? And we already don’t believe in its truth (which you don’t either).

    And the way I see it: The Holy Scriptures of Islam made a deep impact on human History, one way or the other, and it is therefore appropriate to study them extensively. They are not the possession of Muslims only but of all mankind. All mankind, in our opinion, has the right, after studying them, to think and say about them whatever they like. In our vision, it is simply wrong for Muslims to prohibit or obstruct this in any way.

    I never seen so much depravity and evil that is committed in Islamic countries. Yes people are fallible, but I don't believe they can be this fallible ( I'm referring to what goes on in Islamic countries ), therefore there must be something inherently evil about the religion ( one could say it is the religion of Satan ) that causes Muslims to commit so much evil.

  197. Marie

    pedomo wrote:

    True. Just because he had a Muslim background and is against the Iraq war, some people literally hate him. The only problems with him so far, except those allmost all politians have, is his eagerness to please all kinds of groups and his being tricked (just like George Bush) by Muslims into believing that Islam is a peaceful religion.

    Another problem is his inexperience in government prior to being elected and I pray that his inexperience will not lead to a serious blunder that could endanger the safety of American citizens.

  198. Raisin Head

    #220 He was a child as a Muslim and was a muslim until age 20. this makes him in danger of being killed. But then Jeremiah Wright was a Muslim and his church was a mixture of the gospel according to Jeremiah Wright and Muhammad. Everything Farrahkan taught in the mosque Jeremaih taught. Hating America for bombing Japan is blamed by Islam when the Japanese were the first one who bombed-Pearl Harbor. If Jeremiah Wright attacked me first I would bomb Jeremiah and his entire church because all of them would be responsibl;e for supporting him. Because Muslims support Muhammad all are guilty of evil hate and bombing and deserve what they give.

  199. prottier

    Marie,

    "I’m not an idealist, so we do not agree. I’m with Ali Sina in trying to bring down Islam, unlike him I don’t think this could be done in 30 years, more like one to two hundred years. In the meanwhile I believe the free countries should put pressure on Islamic governments and penalize them for human rights violations, limit immigration, and exc. We should also find alternatives to oil since our oil money is being used to fund terrorists activities."

    Again we agree on more than we disagree. As a member of Amnesty International I certainly think much more pressure needs to be applied, especially when it comes to our 'friend' Saudi Arabia. Perhaps the only point I disagree on is limiting immigration. We, as a nation (assuming you are also an American as I am) should strive to allow all cultures into our 'melting pot' so to speak. Think, without immigration many of the ex-Muslims here would not have a voice. Sina is in Canada–what if Canada, Europe (EU) and the US all blocked immigrants from Muslim countries? Would Sina have been such a prominent voice? The trick is not allowing alien communities to form–where there is no need to assimilate rapidly into society. This is where any group can feel dispossessed, alien in the new land, and because their is no need to rapidly learn the language and culture of their new home, they stagnate and fall behind. This is the problem in Hispanic communities in the US where poverty, alienation, etc… cause gangs to form and mob violence–a key theme here. Anyway, it is good to know that we agree for the most part.

  200. Marie

    prottier wrote:

    Perhaps the only point I disagree on is limiting immigration. We, as a nation (assuming you are also an American as I am) should strive to allow all cultures into our ‘melting pot’ so to speak. Think, without immigration many of the ex-Muslims here would not have a voice. Sina is in Canada–what if Canada, Europe (EU) and the US all blocked immigrants from Muslim countries? Would Sina have been such a prominent voice? The trick is not allowing alien communities to form–where there is no need to assimilate rapidly into society. This is where any group can feel dispossessed, alien in the new land, and because their is no need to rapidly learn the language and culture of their new home, they stagnate and fall behind. This is the problem in Hispanic communities in the US where poverty, alienation, etc… cause gangs to form and mob violence–a key theme here. Anyway, it is good to know that we agree for the most part.

    I said limit immigration not prohibit it. Muslims can immigrate and reside here as long as they are productive and become part of American society. If they want to come here and promote Jihad then they can go back to where they came from.

  201. Demsci

    This is what it says on the top right on this website:
    "We aim to promote human rights and democracy among Muslims.
    We oppose Islam, not Muslims. We are against hate, not faith."

    And Dr Rottier and many others seem to think that you cannot study Islam extensively, rejecting it, criticizing and even insulting it, without also denigrating, demonizing, infuriating, alienating its followers.

    But I think that you can do this, that followers of other faiths have done this often to each other, like in Holland where I live. The socialists, who are mostly atheists-agnosts-freethinkers, in the past criticized and hurt Christians really deeply. But without any violence to them or from them in return. I am convinced that followers of most faiths allow criticism, even insults of their religion and still coexist peacefully and cooperate too.

    And together with giving criticism, even insults, to a religion, faith, way of life, followers of different faiths could at the same time give much praise and support to each other, and their faiths, view each other as much more than just "believers of a certain faith".

    But also as playing out the many roles humans have, like as parents, familymembers, what they do for a living, what their interests or hobbies are and how good they can be at these activities. If someone criticizes, even denigrates your religion-faith, it does not mean you are a lesser person, because your faith may still have much good influence too and because you are so much more than just a believer.

    And allowing criticism, even denigration, all the way, has so many advantages. Because out from realizing mistakes, drawbacks people can change their thoughts and behavior and improve them. And provocations seem sometimes necessary to get people's interest, involvement, hence the start of the vigorous use of their brain on the religion-subject. Victims of bad behavior can find support, while perpetrators of it can be stopped, rebuked or made to realize that they better behave themselves, lest their critics are being proven right, etc.

  202. Kinana

    Mr Rottier

    Let us start at the beginning. What sources do you accept as depicting or illustrating the teachings of Islam?

    you say things which are contradicted by the normal sources. e.g.

    'The Qur’an explicitly states when and why Muslims can go to war and it is always defensive.'

    Also you seem to deny that Mohammed had sex with nine-year old Aisha. right? As you know this info is clearly stated in the Hadith. Do you reject the hadith?

    thanks

  203. chestnuts

    londonspirt says

    "If you oppose islam of course you will oppose muslims cause muslim follow the religion islam and if islam was to go the word muslim goes as well. Its like me saying we oppose judasim or hinduism or christianity but we dont oppose chrisitans, jews or hindus. Does it make any logical snese."

    Wrong. Muslims are people. Islam is dogma. A more abhorent example you are unlikely to find.

  204. Kaalan

    After scrutinising the writings of Londonspirit, Rottier, Jah, Dr. Wahid, et al, I decided to become a Muslim and was about to pronounce shahada: La Ilaha Illallah. i.e. THERE IS NO GO BUT ALLAH then suddenly a doubt came to my mind.

    This very first sentence there is no God but Allah suggests a possibility that there might be a God other than Allah, isnt it?

    It is like me telling my son: I am your father, none else!
    If I stopped at I am your father, it is definite, there is no scope of doubting that there is possibility that somebody else can be……

    Will somebody explain this shahada….Thanks

  205. pedomo

    londonspirit: I fi was to just skim through the book i wouldnt have picked out over a total of 150 flaws and over 15 contradictions in his book.

    The Quran is full of lies and contradictions and your brain washed mind fail to understand that. For example, Christians never believed that the Trinity is three Gods, but the Quran wrongly portrays that the belief of the Trinity is the belief in 3 Gods. Another blunder the Quran makes is that the Trinity includes Mary as well. That is how immaculate the Quran is.

    "al-Ma'idah 5:116: And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden ?"

  206. londonspirit

    DEMSCI you talk about respect. When I show another religion respect i listen to his views about his religion and but in no way do i insult his religion. If i ask a question i base my question in a polite manner so he doesnt feel disrespected. you said

    If we want to show respect to the followers of other faiths-life-convictions we take care of a proper balance of criticism-insult-lie and praise-support.

    That is where your wrong. Why do we need to criticze in the first place. And in no circumstances do we lie about another religion. that doesnt bring about peace but brings about a sense of anger and hate, cause someone lied about his religion. And you certantly do not criticize but you pose your understanding in a respectful manner. You certantly dont go around spreading lie on the internet, showing videos of someone getting stoned to death or creating riots and blaming religion. that is not criticizm or anyhting that is a fantasist trying to get his own way about his hatred and spreading it amonst other people.

    You dont see people of other faiths creating a website of all the crimes in ww2 and ww1 and blaming a religion. or blaming other religions for other crimes. You see them blaming the individual. ie. hitler was blamed fro his crimes not christianity. Mugabe was blamed for his crimes not chrisitianity and so on. But when bin laden who used to be a huge partner to the bush family in financial dealings does crimes for his gain the whole islamic population is blamed. Stupid.

    Chestnuts said muslims are people. Yes they are people but the word muslims wont exist if the word islam doesnt exit. I am muslim and my religion is islam. Muslim is derived from islam. So for ali sina to say we oppose islam but not muslims makes no sense. It is better for him to say we oppose the teachings of islam

    KAALAN how can the first sentance say there is no god suggest there might be another god. There is NO GOD. NO NO. its like me saying lets imagine there is no telescope in outer space apart from 1. if i was to say there is no telescope in outer space apart from the hubble space telescope would that suggest to you tat there are others although we can say that there is only 1.

    Its a pharese there is no god but allah. its like just saying there is 1 god and his name is allah or like saying the only god is allah

    PEDOMO you say the quran is full of contradictions and brainwashed minds failto understand that. Let me tell you it is you who fail to understand verses and just copy or paste from another website who lists possible conradictions.

    How do you know the word trinity. The word trinity doesnt even exist in the bible. you find me the word trinity in the bible. This is what a priest says

    the Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God.
    The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture

    So according to the priest the trinity is the belief in 3 gods and three gods in one.
    So you chrisitians dont understand trinity yourself. How can you use the word if it dont even exist in the bible.
    Further on you say the quran makes another bluder including mary part of that trinity. Firstly as i explaine dbefore there is no trinity according to the bible and secondly in the verse of surah al maida no where does it say that mary is asscoiated to trinity rather it says Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah. You say you dont idol worship mary but when you go to some churches you see statues of her on a stand. That my firend is idol worship.

    So is the quran wrong or are you wrong.

    [5:116] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?' " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.

  207. Demsci

    If you want we can rephrase "We oppose Islam, not Muslims". And say: "We oppose Islam, not the humans who believe in Islam, besides being familymembers, friends, being in some line of work, having certain interests, having an incredibly complex character". Them believing in Islam is only a very small part of them and perhaps us calling them Muslims is inconsiderate.

    I know how you always tell us to not blame a religion, like Islam OR Christianity for what some of their (alleged) followers do. And I reversed my thinking because of that. If you are so adamant about not blaming Islam for anything then by the same token we can be adamant about not praising Islam for anything. And if there is no reason to blame or praise Islam, then Islam is really in many ways irrelevant.

    You see, Science provides us with responsible truth-seeking and Islam is to us irrelevant for truth-seeking. Instead of being born into Islam and automatically assuming it is true, you might take up our challenge to prove this.

    And Enlightenment and the resulting democratic system, human rights already gives us a well-functioning system of organizing society. So Islam is irrelevant for that too, in the 21st century. If you think Islam is relevant in this way, state your reasons.

    We can still examine the past and present interpretation of Islam and the behavior of its followers. Then we can state that there was, on balance, no good coming from Islam and there still isn't. When you then come up with all the reasons why Islam was good and therefore relevant for human progress, prosperity, happiness, then we can play the same game you play, namely:

    Each time we say Islam had some bad influence on people you refute that, so each time you say Islam had some good influence on people, we can refute that. In the same ways you do: By saying: Oh, no, it was only good because some Individual interpreted Islam wrong. PRAISE the individuals, NOT the religion. Oh, no, what you submit as being beneficial by Islam, was just as much, or better, done by followers of other religions, so Islam was irrelevant for this alleged good it brought, etc. etc.

    And in this game we are also quite serious, and it is you who must endeavour to prove to the rest of the world what good, thus relevancy Islam ever had, now has, or will have in the 21st century. It is our turn to refute that then.

    The solution would be for us to admit that Islam had some good influences, and for you to admit that Islam had some bad influences. But if it had NO influence at all, THEN it was irrelevant, it is only something you happen to like, no more.

  208. londonspirit

    DEMSCI do you hink ai sina would re-phrase that. I asked him only 3 questions and he didnt reply to any of them rather he started accusing me. You say we should praise religion. Of course we shouldnt praise any religion. religion hasnt been brought into this world to be praised but has been brought to this world as a guide for a mankind. You further go on to say then islam is really in many ways irrelevant. My friend a religion that teaches you obidence and respect in no ways can be irrelevant.
    You say you can examine the past behaviour of islam and its followers. We can also examine the past ad present behaviour of followers of other faiths. There traits are not so good and in some cases a far worse than than islam in certain perspectives.

    You can refute anything you want but the difference between me and you is that what i state are the teachings of islam and what you state are the behaviourul characteristics of a minority of muslims.

    You also say i must prove with science that islam is true. The thing is dont need to prove this. Top scientists around the globe has already proven this. And have gone even further by implementing the quran as a reference to their analysis. So Demsci it is upto you to search for the truth yourself. Why dont you start by searching in google scientists reverting to islam. There you come across alot of pages and you will see world renounded scientists using a quran as a reference to not justify their scientific findings but to use it as a source for their findings.

    You keep on mentioning democratics and so on. if this was such a good system them why do you get so mny crimes in the usa. You talk about human rights but these rights are violated in prisons like abu gharaib and guantanomo bay. Who have been held responsible to these crimes. But then when three israli solders get captured in lebanon for tresspassing, israel kills hundreds and injure thousands, where are the human rights then.

    These systems mean nothing if you got corrupt leaders, even the shariah system. If the leader is corrupt not even the shariah system can be made into a good system. So stop mentioning democratics cause in theory the system by no doubt is a good system but in reality corrupt leaders make it into a very bad system.

  209. Raisin Head

    #240 why say what other religions did to compensate for the evils of islam. If it was wrong for Christians to do it why was it right for Muslims to do it. Can you explain why it was wrong for christians to enslave African when Musims did it.

    why is it wrong for christians to sex 4 women and Islam is right. Under the bible it says for Chritians that ONE wife not four is right. Everything that jesus said dont do Muhammad aka allah said do. Killing, fornication adultery, pedo, stealing, lying all ok in Islam. Not ok in the bible for Jesus' Christians. Now Roman christians did it all but not because the bible said do it but because the wanted to do it. Explain please.
    Also explain why Arabs had African slaves and not both ways. Why did allah make Africans black to be slaves to white people. Explain why are only black women cused Hadith 9:162,3,

  210. Raisin Head

    #240 you ran away from the black mate comments. where are they mate!

  211. Demsci

    Sorry to keep mentioning the democratic system, but I know that the overwhelming majority of Europeans would love to keep that system and they do not have much confidence in some sort of alternative Islamic system, which is not doing so well in Iran or Saudi Arabia, especially not for women.

    If Muslims don't give a shit about democracy, while the Europeans love it so much, then there you have some ground for their fear for Muslims, don't you think?

    Everywhere there are "corrupt" leaders, but don't you see that it is in Democracy that they can be examined, criticized, prosecuted, stopped, whereas in dictatorial systems they cannot? Certainly not in Saudi Arabia, Iran or Syria, Egypt etc. Ehud Olmert gets deposed, while Mubarak stays in power for 30 years? But to you, there is no difference?

    You talk about respect for all religions; well that is because you have a good character, maybe. But what if a country has Anti-Apostacy-laws and -customs, like Iran, Yemen, many other Islamic countries have? Imagine; In Western countries everybody is free in religion, regardless of birth, and in Islamic countries people are actually killed because of change in religion. Are anti-apostasy-laws respectful towards other faiths?

    Yes, you say that the Islamic Holy scriptures are guidance from God, but we think you just assume that, because you were told that when you were a child, and we think they were not sent by God. Oh, I can google and search about Scientists supporting the Quran and get back to you. Be that as it may , for now I and many others think Islam is irrelevant for real, good truth-finding, because we have Science for that now.

    After having discussed Islams truthfulness you are welcome to show us Islams usefulness. In regard to bringing the best ways of organizing societies, (maybe because of much less crime, maybe you are right there?). Or how Islam is relevant for all sorts of progress, prosperity, happiness? For the environment maybe? And mind you, relevant here means that Islam has to offer mankind something the rest of mankind can't get independently from Islam.

  212. londonspirit

    RAISINHEAD please dont message me cause you talk the most amount of nonsense. I aint saying what other religions did to compensate the evils of individual not islam. Your narrow minded, you always talk about slavery but yet you cant open your eyes to the slavery thats going around you in your own country.

    You say Killing, fornication adultery, pedo, stealing, lying all ok in Islam. your a leir. where do you get this information. I aint bothering to expalin anything to you cause when i do you turn a blind eye and when i ask you something like does earth have corners, you say yes. A person who cant differentiate between a circle and corners, what chance is there to convince her that what ali sina says is a lie.

    By the way i told my black mate. now its upto him to join. I aint gonna constantly harass him and say did you join. I told him all about u. And do you know what he said to me. Why do i need to waste my time on imbesils and narrow minded fools and he also said to me, stop wasting your time on these people they only got one thing on their mind and there is nothing you can do to change it. Which is very true cause no matter how much proof i bring to you you still deny and belive what ali sina says or whatyou think not the truth.

    And by the way extensive research has been done by people who strudy hadiths in regards to the age of ayesha, and let me tell you a new conclusion has been brought up that in no way could ayesha be at the age of 9 when she married muhammed. look into it. I am reading through it now understanding now

  213. Demsci

    Well, LS,

    You may be right, and you are supported by Rottier also, about the age of Aisha at marriage. But there is this video on YouTube about 2 young girls, 10, 12 years old being married to guys of 30, 26 respectively in Yemen. They were divorced by a judge. But the father of the 12 year old girl explained himself that he lived by the "Sunnah" and he said because the prophet Muhammad married Aisha at age 9, he felt justified to give his daughter of 12 into marriage to her cousin of 26. I suppose he meant marriage at 6 or comsummation of marriage at 9, but that is what he said. So in Yemen in the 21st century some people give their daughters in marriage, getting them from school, often because they are very poor, with the excuse that it "is in the Sunnah".

  214. londonspirit

    Of course please do like that system. The democratic system is good. I aint saying that it is bad.The islamic shariah system is also very good and the countries that use it such as UAE saudia arabia bahrain, oman kuwait and so on can see the +ve influences from it. They are able to keep laptop in their cars with the car open and no one would steal it or break into their cars. The problem is when these systems are abused by the leaders. The point I was trying to make across is that when leaders are corrupt a good system can become a bad system because they take the law into their own hands.

    DEMSCI which muslims do you know that dont give a shit about democratic. Do you know of any. U as i both live in a country that have a lot muslim. How many muslims have you seen protest about the democratic system. They live along side you and also follow the same laws as you.

    You also mention about democrate rights and dictorial rights. I ask you a question now. What has dictatorship got to do with islam? please explain

    You further mention what about apostates in countries ruled by islamic leaders. Like i said before there is not a single verse in the quran that talks about killing someone who converts from islam. This rule is due again due to corrupt leaders. It is not the teachings of islam. Why dont you find a single verse frm the quran that tells a muslim to kill someone if they convert from islam.

    DEMSCI you can assume what has been sent by god or not. You have your own opinion and only yu can change that. I wasnt told about god when i was young. I researched everything. I also looked through athesim. At one point athesim made sense to me but when i went to university and learnt about thermodynamics, I was taught one very important denotions, which was energy canot be created or destroyed it can only change forms. We already know big bang is a fact, so the immense amount of energy that was generated to create the big bang, where did that energy come from I posed this question to my physics teacher at university, who was an athesist. He was shocked and couldnt give me an answer, after which he went back to beliveing in christianity.

    You keep saying what good has islam brought about this world. Open your eyes and see that muslims are the most tolerable people in the world with exception of a few. they dont drink alcohol or any sort of intoxication. They show immense respect to different coloured people, islam has the biggest gathering in the world whereby 2-3 million people gather of different casts into one place, stand side by side, eat from the same plate the same food to truly find universal brotherhood. What other religion has this kind of respect towards others. Further on muslims have to give 2.5% of their savings to the poor every year, so that the less fortunante can survive, what other religion does this. Aint this form a good cause to mankind. DEMSCI you really need to understand islam to try an find the true meaning.

    You cant listen to Ali Sina words who doesnt belive in no religion as he states in his book of understanding islam, and in the same book he says he is blessed. Blessed from who? how can someone be blessed and than say he dont belive in religion. And how can someone say he is blessed and call someeone elese a narcissit when his traits show he is one himself. You dont even have to take my word for it. Seek the truth using your own knowledge

  215. Marie

    londonspirit wrote:

    You dont see people of other faiths creating a website of all the crimes in ww2 and ww1 and blaming a religion. or blaming other religions for other crimes. You see them blaming the individual. ie. hitler was blamed fro his crimes not christianity. Mugabe was blamed for his crimes not chrisitianity and so on. But when bin laden who used to be a huge partner to the bush family in financial dealings does crimes for his gain the whole islamic population is blamed. Stupid.

    londonspirit do you know why we blame the individual in these cases? It's because they did not use religion ( well Hitler did use an ideology but it was not Christianity ) or the name of God to commit crimes against humanity. That's why we don't blame religion in these atrocities.

    So according to the priest the trinity is the belief in 3 gods and three gods in one.
    So you chrisitians dont understand trinity yourself. How can you use the word if it dont even exist in the bible.

    The trinity is three persons in one.

    You say you dont idol worship mary but when you go to some churches you see statues of her on a stand. That my firend is idol worship.

    Catholics have statues of Mary in their churches to venerate her ( venerate means to respect ). Now I have some images of Mary on my bedroom dresser ( along crosses, crucifixes both on my dresser and on my walls ), and I don't pray to them. Does that make me an idolater? By the way I am not Catholic, I am protestant ( Lutheran )

    You also say i must prove with science that islam is true. The thing is dont need to prove this. Top scientists around the globe has already proven this. And have gone even further by implementing the quran as a reference to their analysis. So Demsci it is upto you to search for the truth yourself. Why dont you start by searching in google scientists reverting to islam. There you come across alot of pages and you will see world renounded scientists using a quran as a reference to not justify their scientific findings but to use it as a source for their findings.

    Ok then what about Christian Scientists and Scientists who convert to Christianity, Hindu scientists, Jewish Scientists, Scientists who endorse Buddhism or Jainism, and exc. According to your logic because scientists are converting to Islam means that it is the true religion of God, but there are many scientists who follow other religions or convert to a religion, does that mean all these religions are the true religion of God?

    We already know big bang is a fact, so the immense amount of energy that was generated to create the big bang, where did that energy come from I posed this question to my physics teacher at university, who was an athesist. He was shocked and couldnt give me an answer, after which he went back to beliveing in christianity.

    By the way the person who created the big bang theory was a Catholic priest.

    Further on muslims have to give 2.5% of their savings to the poor every year, so that the less fortunante can survive, what other religion does this. Aint this form a good cause to mankind. DEMSCI you really need to understand islam to try an find the true meaning.

    I guess you never heard of Christian and Secular Charities. By the way in regards to "Muslim Charity" does it go to Muslims only or do you give it to nonmuslims also?

  216. londonspirit

    DEMSCI wrote But there is this video on YouTube about 2 young girls, 10, 12 years old being married to guys of 30, 26 respectively in Yemen.

    I can tell you of many cases of hindu babies getting married to much older men. Now is it using logic to say that this is the work of hinduism. This is cultural issues. You cannot subsequently compare religio nto cultural issues cause they will always conflict. The man you talk about saying sunnah, he may be just be a person who hears and doesnt study for him self. This ayesha story of her being 9 years old was at a boom when it was first introduced, people of the likes of ali sina used it as a tool to hit at islam. And many may probably have left islam due to this. But new revelation through extensive research by scholars have now found out that it is absolutely impossible for ayesha to have been 9 at the tme of marraige. Whether this is right or wrong allah knows. But dont take it literally just cause one guy says this and that, cause when you do your going down the path of just hearing and judging not understanding and judging.

    MARIE to you. Whether they use chrisitanity or not they are christians. There is major fighting in ireland between catholics and prodestants. They kill because of the different sects, Now do who do we blame. The individuals who perform such atrocities or the religion they follow. How do you know that the attack on 9/11 wasnt an inside job. do you have any proof that it was done by the muslims other than what you hear on the news. I use 9/11 because this is when all these hatred begun. why dont you show me proof that 9/11 was done by muslims and i can show you a great deal of proof that it was done by our own goverment.

    The big bang wasnt first discovered by a priest it is actually written down in the quran. But obviously me explaining the verses you would object to so lets not go there. DEMSCI asked me to show scientific proofs. So i stated the scientists used the quran to execute their theories. Now you show me scientists that converted to christianity using scientific knowledge from the bible. Please show me i am very curious considering all the contradiction in the first verse alone.

    You talk about chrisitan secular charities, yes we have them in the UK as well. But these charities dont make it mandatory for you to pay. You pay out of the will of your heart. But I ask you do you know how these charities work. in britian we have the red cross and oxfam and other christian chraties. For every pound that is donated only 20p goes towards charitiy. The rest of the money goes towards running the company, which includes staff wages and comission. Whereas the 2.5% in islam you donate to the mosque or you pay any person in need. Dont matter where religion, cast, or even if they are aliens. It goes to the POOR. the POOR doesnt mean just muslims.

  217. ibnsahr

    “religion hasnt been brought into this world to be praised but has been brought to this world as a guide for a mankind. You further go on to say then islam is really in many ways irrelevant. My friend a religion that teaches you obidence and respect in no ways can be irrelevant.”

    It’s a joke, what you think about London bombing??, what your excuse for that

    You are perfect example of true muslim, you can see the ant across the ocean but can not see or even smell the elephant right in front of your eyes dropping the dunk, and yet you go to uni what a waste

    Christian not necessary, bow down, infront of statue.
    But you pray facing ka’ba vulva, is that not idol worship, you are the most hypocrite bunch ever created

    “You keep saying what good has islam brought about this world. Open your eyes and see that muslims are the most tolerable people in the world with exception of a few”

    Even funnier, open your eyes, what you see infront of you is kafir invention, look at muslim country, ask your parent why they come to the west.

    Have you ever think of becoming a clown? At least you can fool some children not grown up

    why this rottier not convert? this is just how he make a living, but he's not as dumb as you!

  218. Marie

    londonspirit wrote:

    MARIE to you. Whether they use chrisitanity or not they are christians. There is major fighting in ireland between catholics and prodestants. They kill because of the different sects, Now do who do we blame.

    We blame the people or Churches that fill these people with hatred.

    The individuals who perform such atrocities or the religion they follow. How do you know that the attack on 9/11 wasnt an inside job. do you have any proof that it was done by the muslims other than what you hear on the news. I use 9/11 because this is when all these hatred begun. why dont you show me proof that 9/11 was done by muslims and i can show you a great deal of proof that it was done by our own goverment.

    Lets see how do I know it was not an inside job? Well Osama Bin Laden and co posting videos on the internet claiming they did it.

    Lets see what other proof is there? Well it certainly can't be the U.S. government because they would have to be inhuman to commit such atrocities.

    Lets see what more proof do we need? Hmmm there is the al-qaida reader by Raymond Ibrahim which reveals Osama hatred for the U.S.

    The big bang wasnt first discovered by a priest it is actually written down in the quran.

    Oh really? Prove it!

    DEMSCI asked me to show scientific proofs. So i stated the scientists used the quran to execute their theories. Now you show me scientists that converted to christianity using scientific knowledge from the bible. Please show me i am very curious considering all the contradiction in the first verse alone.

    LOL. Ok londonspirit I will answer your question on one condition: You must show me how scientists use the Quran to execute their theories and what is the scientific community response to their theories.

    You talk about chrisitan secular charities, yes we have them in the UK as well. But these charities dont make it mandatory for you to pay. You pay out of the will of your heart. But I ask you do you know how these charities work. in britian we have the red cross and oxfam and other christian chraties. For every pound that is donated only 20p goes towards charitiy. The rest of the money goes towards running the company, which includes staff wages and comission. Whereas the 2.5% in islam you donate to the mosque or you pay any person in need. Dont matter where religion, cast, or even if they are aliens. It goes to the POOR. the POOR doesnt mean just muslims.

    Number one: People who run these charities has families of their own to support

    Number two: There are thousands of Christian charities in the world and they devote thousands of dollars to the poor. There are people who work for these charities who live on very little or what they need.

  219. londonspirit

    IBNSAHR it just shows your ignorance. Stop making assumption about me. Firstly my parents are not from the east and they never migrated to the west. They are originally from the west.

    Secondly if you even bothered to read my statements above you would have realized that I am coming to one point, which is dont blame a religion from what individuals do. Look how clever you are. Just cause i have said i have alot of proof in regards to 9/11 you have shafted your attention to another bombing. So typical. How do you know the london bombings were done by muslims, do you have any evidence that they were muslims, they could have just had muslim name like your and have been of other faiths.

    You say chrisitans dont neccessary bow down to a statue. Have you seen a chrisitan pray in church, not only do they get on one knee in front of a statue but they get on one knee to a priest as well. And muslims dont pray to the ka-aba. This is just your ignorance talking to you. They pray towards the ka-abah so everyone prays in the same direction. The kaabah was made by ibrahim and his son, one of the first places of worship. We dont worship it.

    Soo it is you who is the fool and dumb. Stop making assumptions and actually find out what is the truth. I dont wanna make a fool out of children or adult just doing my part in distinguishing the truth from the lie.

    And by the way you lots say you are peaceful, but you never get a muslim on this site using obsolete language but you get people of other faiths using inappropriate terminology. Of course you are not to be blamed. The one that is to be blamed is ali sina for creating this hatred.

  220. Marie

    londonspirit wrote:

    You say chrisitans dont neccessary bow down to a statue. Have you seen a chrisitan pray in church, not only do they get on one knee in front of a statue but they get on one knee to a priest as well. And muslims dont pray to the ka-aba. This is just your ignorance talking to you. They pray towards the ka-abah so everyone prays in the same direction. The kaabah was made by ibrahim and his son, one of the first places of worship. We dont worship it.

    Number one:There are many Christians who don't pray in front of statue.

    Number two: There are many Christians who don't get down on one knee of a priest.

    Number three: Catholics pray in front of an statue not to the statue. They use the statue as part of their focus when praying to God.

    Number four: Muslims kiss the vagina that is on the kaba.

    And by the way you lots say you are peaceful, but you never get a muslim on this site using obsolete language but you get people of other faiths using inappropriate terminology. Of course you are not to be blamed. The one that is to be blamed is ali sina for creating this hatred.

    Wrong! There are Muslims who come on this website and use the foulest language I ever heard.

  221. ibnsahr

    #252
    "Number three: Catholics pray in front of an statue not to the statue. They use the statue as part of their focus when praying to God."

    you got that right,

    Every time I pray and and I remembered hijab wearing chick with big tits, I try to imagine divine figure, get this thought out of my mind.

    But these pigs, came out straight from whore house straight attacking and burn the church, while holding the quran on one hand, still saying islam is tolerant, and asking for the proof…? Theres you proof you poof.., HOLDING QURAN WHILE COMMITING CRIME, imagine what they had in mind while they pray,

    The only conspiracy I was thinking, some people knew 9/11 before, but they just let it happened to have excuse to attack you which is about the time. They should destroy your idol, that you kiss .., that is ka’bah vulva

    for the rest of your doubt about my accusation about muslim crime, how do you know mad ham mo, prophet of god?

  222. Marie

    ibnsahr wrote:

    how do you know mad ham mo, prophet of god?

    You mean prophet of Satan.

  223. ibnsahr

    prophet of satan..?yeah that's it,

    at least story of creation in bible, were in right order with science, stupid mo said it was earth first and they join heaven and earth after all, or something like that s#!t?

  224. pedomo

    #238. londonspirit Says: : "the Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God.
    The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture"

    You are right about this. Trinity is a name used for convenience and to express this idea. So when someone says Trinity, it means what is written above. So you are making an unnessary fuss about the word Trinity.

    But the Quran 5:116 implies that Christians believe in 3 Gods and one of them is Mary, which is not true. So the Quran is still wrong. Also, it was the Mohammed's understanding of the Bible. That Mohammed was illiterate is true, then he learned the ideas in the Bible by hearing what others talked and he mistook Mary for the Holy Spirit.

  225. mohammad

    I truly despise those "policitally correct" people from the west. who always said that jihads committed by muslims around the world do not reflect islam's ideology as a whole. and that we should allow the "moderate" muslims to be in the society and treat them with respect, and allow them to practice their religion even if it means discrimination to some group.

    By giving example of supposedly democratic islamic country such as indonesia, turkey and malaysia. these politically correct people will always say how the democratic islamic country have prospered, its people were friendly and warmth, how they were treated without any prejudice during their short stint in any partulcar islamic country, how they were respected and their religion was not a problem with all muslims in that country. all these cliche's worked for naive and gullible professor in the west. of course they do listened to one side of the story and all those tv commercials portraying the people in good camaraderie and loads of other bullss from the government and the media which is controlled by islamists.

    try being a minority locals in any of these supposedly democratic islamic, you will face the greatest oppression in your life. and you will change your mind. all years you have spent to attain phd and to understand sociology of human interactions goes to the dustbin. islam is totally overhauling sociologist theories. what you studied in the university whereever it was is of no use. listen to the voices of the downtrodden minorities, listen to both party to draw conclusion and not rely on a single source.

    sign out prottier.

  226. mohammad

    and what is this nonsense londonspirit talking about trinity which is of no relevance here. we are talking about islam not christian. and what is the problem about trinity? let it be. muslims always throw difficult question in the realm of 'it's out there' and you won't be able to understand it. it was just out of human understanding and our brain is just a drop of water comparing to the ocean that we need to understand. it was common islamists excuses. now i give you the same reason. trinity is the ocean of knowledge, and your londonspirit tiny little brain is just a drop of water and you won't be able to understand it until you die and see your god.

    even if it is absurd. i don't care. because id rather follow a religion that teaches love and respect than one that is teaching hatred and paedophilia. my god.

  227. hardball

    This guy prottier scares me even more so when he claims to have a PhD
    and then you try to defend the worlds biggest and most violent cult Islam
    any normal person who's not brain-dead and brainwashed would be able
    to see Islam for what it really is, a violent backward cult..

    all Muslims countries have racist oppressive laws even today in the year 2009 and this man cannot see that. Muslim countries all require its citizens
    to carry ID cards which identify people by religion…the purpose is to control and discriminate against none Muslims. even against Muslims who might want to leave Islam or marry a none Muslim will not be able to do so…they are forced to live as Muslims for life, until death, and you defend this evil cult and system

    shame on you, you should stick your head in the sand where it belongs, you are worse then brainwashed Muslims, at least they have some excuse they were brainwashed into this cult since childhood

    but you have not, at least if one believes who you really claim to be a man with a PHD from a free country

    WHAT A SHAME YOU ARE TO HUMANITY……

    I'm sure you would have defended the nazis in the same way, just like not every nazis was evil.but the ideologie of the nazis was pure evil just like Islam is pure evil and you have done a bad job defending this evil, i suggest you get ourside the class room and look at the real world of Islam….

  228. [...] article is a question posed to Dr. Pete Rottier, who in our previous debate claimed that my accusations against Muhammad are [...]

  229. ibrahim

    prottier, there was no need for you to tell us that you are not a Muslim. You writting makes it quite apparent that you are not a Muslim and you obviously have nothing to do with Islam. It good to hear a Non-Muslim voice on this Forum which supports a great religion like islam. Its a pity that you have yet to convert to this great faith. Its the only way to Paradise you know, or didnt your Muslim friends tell you about it?
    Well it goes like this, all you need to do is to recite the Shahada, the Islamic Testimony of Faith. Once you are a Muslim, you are eligible to enter Paradise. This is something you will never be able to do as a Non-Muslim. Don't believe me, go and ask your non-Muslim friends. They will tell you all about it.

    All the best to you!

  230. Marie

    ibnsahr wrote:

    i know you guys hypocrite.., so you said you never had random thought while you in masjid?

    LOL.

  231. londonspirit

    IBNSAHR i you mention holding quran while commiting crime. Let me ask you. the quran as you may know is a book for guidance. In any single verse of the quran does it say kill innocnet people. This has been a challenge from me for some time now. An not one single person has illustrated to me that the quran says that. People have tried but failed. Now if the quran doesnt say to kill innocnet people and it tells people not to perform criminal acts, do you think it says that people should commit crime with the quran in their right hand.

    Quran is not a tool. It is a book to seek guidance. If people are doing what you say what the hell has that got to do with islam. That is their own mentality. just like you when you pray you think its a time to think about big breated chicks. your no different to them

    You talk about hypocrites and you say dont my mind wonder when i pray. But when i pray and when alot of the majority of muslims pray if the mind wonders we try and concentrate on the prayer. If you want to think about chicks go right ahead but thats you its got nothing to do with islam. Just like when people commit crimes with the quran that is them. That has absolutely got nothing to do with islam.

    You say you live in a muslim country and all they do is spread hate, considering what country you live in i am sure ther eis millions of non-muslims near you in your counrty. Now if the country is majority of muslims than why hasnt all the non-muslims been killed yet. It is stupid for you to say such ignorant things but than you live peacefully with the muslims. I bet you have many muslim friends. Hve they ever attrempted to kill you. I have many chrisitan friends but i have never attempted to kill any of them , nor has the 3 million muslims in england attempted to wipe out the chrisitan population. Get this stupid ideology from ali sina out of your head and look at the world. The world consists of two major wars both which primarily involve the americans.

    Marie mentions that i should go to egypt and malaysia whereby foreign nationals have id cards and are treated like shit. That is total utter nonse. You should check of on egypt before you say that because egypt is full of foreign nationals and tourists especially from russia and germany. Egyptians have designated them there own tourist area where they can sun bathe with bikinis and not create anger amonst the muslims. A nation that gives tourists there own space cannot be a nation that discriminates against foreign. And before you ask for proof marie. look up on the internet on hurghada and safaga and sharm el sheikh an many more.

    In the case of Malaysia. Malysia has 50 % non muslims they live peacefully with muslims. The crime rate is unbeliveably low. And the foreign who go to malaysia are given the best jobs. so for you to say they are treate dlike xxxx is utter nonsense

  232. Marie

    londonspirit wrote:

    Marie mentions that i should go to egypt and malaysia whereby foreign nationals have id cards and are treated like shit. That is total utter nonse. You should check of on egypt before you say that because egypt is full of foreign nationals and tourists especially from russia and germany. Egyptians have designated them there own tourist area where they can sun bathe with bikinis and not create anger amonst the muslims. A nation that gives tourists there own space cannot be a nation that discriminates against foreign. And before you ask for proof marie. look up on the internet on hurghada and safaga and sharm el sheikh an many more.

    I did not say you should go to Egypt or Malaysia. Don't you dare twist my statements! I was not talking about the tourists you moron. I was referring to the citizens of those countries who have to have an id card stating they are Christian, Muslim, and exc. When Muslims leave Islam for another religion, they have to go to court to try to get their ids changed and in most cases the courts deny their requests. When a nonmuslim converts to Islam, the courts are more then happy to fulfill their requests to have their ids changed. But when they decide to go back to their original religion, the courts refuse their requests.

    In the case of Malaysia. Malysia has 50 % non muslims they live peacefully with muslims. The crime rate is unbeliveably low. And the foreign who go to malaysia are given the best jobs. so for you to say they are treate dlike xxxx is utter nonsense

    Bullsh*t

    Religious Atmosphere:

    Sunni Islam is the predominant religion with large numbers of religious minorities. About 60% of the people are Muslim, 20% are Buddhist, 10% are Christian, 5% are Hindu and 5% practice other religions, including Taoism and indigenous belief systems. Most of the religious minorities are concentrated in the eastern part of the country.
    Extremist Groups:

    Islamic fundamentalist groups exist.
    Government:

    * Islam is the official religion.

    * Article 11 of the Constitution gives citizens the right to freely profess, practice, and propagate their religion. However, this right is restricted in practice.

    * The construction of non-Muslim places of worship must be approved by the government while Muslim places of worship face no such restriction.

    * The sale and distribution of Malay language Bibles and other Christian materials are strongly discouraged.

    * Visas for foreign clergy of non-Muslim religions are severely restricted.

    * Apostates (those who convert from Islam to another religion) may be fined or imprisoned for a year of "rehabilitation."

    Recent Actions:

    * April 23, 2003 – The ban on the Iban Bible was lifted after an understanding was reached between the Acting Prime Minister and Christian leaders. The ban stemmed from the use of the word Allah Tala for God in the Iban translation. (WEA/VOM)

    * April 2003 – Thirty-five Christian books, including the Iban translation of the Bible were banned, as they are considered detrimental to public peace. The majority of Ibans are Christians and thus will be greatly affected by the new ban, which makes the printing, sale, distribution and possession of any banned book punishable by up to three years imprisonment and/or a fine of 20,000 ringgits. Other books on the list include translated versions of books by J.I. Packer and John Stott. English language versions are not on the list. (Barnabas Fund/ANS)

    * July 2002 – Malaysian police have refused to enforce the Islamic justice system that Terengganu's state government had tried to enforce. The federal government ordered police to stay with the old laws.
    * July 2002 – The PAS (the largest opposition party in Malaysia) is working hard to fully implement the Islamic Shari'ah law in Malaysia's Terengganu state. Christians and non-Muslims are afraid that under the harsh Shari'ah law their rights will eventually be taken away. It has been promised the laws will apply to Muslims only, however they have already been enforced on on-Muslims. Several moderate peace-keeping leaders in Malaysia have either stepped down or died, leaving a power vacuum open to more charismatic Muslim leaders. (BFS)

    * May 23, 2002 – A French missionary was arrested on blasphemy charges after distributing a pamphlet on Koranic plagiary. Though he could have been sentenced to 2-5 years in jail for "acting in a manner which could lead to disharmony between Christians and Muslims," a judge ordered that he be deported. (Charisma)

    * July 21, 2001 – The Marthoma Christian Community Center, in the city of Sungei Patani, was set on fire with damage estimated at 300,000 ringgits ($79,000). Police told church authorities the Malaysian Militant Group (KMM, Kumpulan Militan Malaysia) were probably responsible. (Compass)

    * April 24, 2001 – A Muslim convert to Christianity was denied permission to have her identity card changed to reflect her religious conversion. The woman, who has already changed her name from Azlina Jailani to Lina Joy, was told by a judge that she must take up the issue with the Islamic Sharia Court. According to a 1976 law, Lina will not be able to have a Christian wedding ceremony as long as Islam is the religion reflected on her identity card. As an apostate she also faces possible "rehabilitation" to convince her to re-embrace the Islamic faith.

    * January 12, 2001 – A Christian retreat center operated by the New Testament Church in Bukit Markisa was raided by police. Though admitting that the church center was a legal settlement and did not pose a threat to national security, Inspector General Tan Sri Norian Mai, said the raid will actually help the church by putting an end to allegations against it. No evidence of criminal activity was found by police who broke into the center and forcibly entered residents' rooms. No one was arrested in the incident.

    Malaysia: Government Confiscates Christian Children's Books
    Added: Jan 21st, 2008 2:06 AM

    Illustrations of prophets deemed offensive to Muslims.

    KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia (Compass Direct News) — Adding to the furor over whether non-Muslims have the right to use the word "Allah" in their publications and religious practice, on January 11 online news agency Malaysiakini reported that officials confiscated English-language Christian children's books because they contained images of prophets.

    The government reportedly said Internal Security Ministry officials confiscated the books because their illustrations of prophets offended the sensitivities of Muslims. Islam, which shares some prophets in common with Christianity, prohibits the portrayal of prophets.

    Enforcement officials of the Publications and Al-Quran Texts Control Department under the Internal Security Ministry, headed by Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi, reportedly confiscated the books from three MPH bookstores in Johor Bahru, Senawang and Ipoh in mid-December.

    The books have been sent to the department's headquarters in Putrajaya for investigation. Managers of the MPH bookstores reportedly said they will wait for the Internal Security Ministry’s decision on the books.

    In a statement released yesterday (January 17) , the Rev. Dr. Hermen Shastri, general-secretary of the Council of Churches Malaysia questioned how the books could be offensive to Muslims when they were not meant for them.

    In the strongly worded statement about the seizures, Shastri said government officials “have no right and have overstepped their bounds by confiscating Christian literature.”

    He urged the prime minister and his Cabinet to take immediate action to put a stop to such seizures and to “amend administrative rules and regulations especially in the Internal Security Ministry that give a free hand to enforcement officials to act at their whim and fancies.”

    At the same time, the debate over whether non-Muslims can use the word “Allah” in publications and religious practice was stoked when the Internal Security Ministry told the Sun on Wednesday (January 16) that it had confiscated a total of 163 publications comprising 18 titles from bookshops nationwide.

    A ministry official told the daily that the seizures were made because the word “Allah” was used in the books. But Deputy Internal Ministry Minister Johari Baharum reportedly said that the ministry did not target Christian books.

    “We do routine checks all year long,” he said. “We don’t only seize Christian books, but other [religious] books as well.”

    The deputy minister said use of the words, “Allah” (Arabic for God), “baitullah” (mosque in Mecca), “solat” (prayer) and “kaabah” (Islamic shrine in Mecca) are exclusive to Islam, according to Gazette PU (A) 15/82 and circular KKDN S.59/3/6/A dated December 5, 1986.

    In a letter to the press, Gayathry Venkiteswaran, executive director of the Centre for Independent Journalism, argued that “seizing more than the needed copies for investigation while the titles are not banned, denies the right of the people to access the book and is clearly high-handed.”

    The right of non-Muslims to use the word “Allah” in their publications and practice of their religion is being tested in two court cases by the publisher of the Herald, a Catholic newspaper, and the Evangelical Church of Borneo (Sidang Injil Borneo).

  233. mohammad

    londonspirit, earlier i thought you are really a person who knows what he is talking about. i was really disappointed with the way you speaks about malaysia. and the way you said that malaysia do not have id card. you imbecile skunk, charlatan you don't know what you are talking about and you better keep your mouth shut if you are not sure of what you are talking about. i am truly disgusted with you who wanted to speak on behalf of all the oppressed minority groups in malaysia. you insulted them, you smeared their dignity, and this is a classic example of what an ignorant westerner who don't know anything and yet trying to appear academic in this site. i tell you step back and contemplate on your ignorance.

    you said malaysians live peacefully with the muslims,.. i tell you to shut your vile mouth and ask the oppressed group. of course some elite non-muslims who live and gobble corrupt money from the government willl say otherwise. this is dhimmism in practice.

    and you asked us why non-muslims were not dead yet. nowadays muslims are killing non-muslims in variety of ways. not just literally smiting our neck, but more than that. a lot of ways have been done to subtly persecute non-muslims; examples; deprived economically, low educational opportunities by introduction of quota which unfairly favored the muslims, selective property ownership, one way conversion – in marriage, many who regretted being islam were not allowed to change their religion until their death, and the non-muslim wife/husband/family were not allowed to inherit any of the inheritance, all of which were given to islamic body in the country; moreover the family will not be allowed to bury their loved ones according to the religion that the deceased believed-in before being forcefully by law converted to islam. body snatching right in front of the loved ones by islamic authority. you name it, all of these are a form of killing, murdering, but it so far kept under the carpet, because you stupid westerners such as londonspirit read somewhere from the internet and thought you know malaysians better. asinine londoners.

    stupid muslims.

  234. ibnsahr

    LS you said:
    "Let me ask you. the quran as you may know is a book for guidance. In any single verse of the quran does it say kill innocnet people. This has been a challenge from me for some time now. An not one single person has illustrated to me that the quran says that. People have tried but failed. Now if the quran doesnt say to kill innocnet people and it tells people not to perform criminal acts, do you think it says that people should commit crime with the quran in their right hand."
    ————————————————–
    You still not answer my question?,

    Then why the hold the quran while beheading people, is it a fashion attribute?,
    Or they forgot to put it down?

    Im sorry, but I never cross my mind quran is book of guidance

    It didn’t say kill innocent, but quran clearly divided people into two, muslim and kafir (doesn’t matter innocent kafir or guilty kafir), ok lets try to put the sentence like this,

    “WHY YOU HOLDING QURAN AND CHANTING ALLAH HU AKBAR WHEN BEHEADED KAFIR ???”

    Try to challenge your self.., is INNOCENT KAFIR IS UNBELIVER??

    I have a lot of muslim friend, we get drunk together, gang bang a girl (seriously), they roll up a joint inside masjid (looking for safe place), while im waiting outside (no way, I get in , if people find me I’ll be damn), the people who regular the nite club, is the same person who cameback the next day to burn it down, see…I didn’t blame my friend, its just Islamic teaching that make people hypocrite?

    Please let me know your excuse for the challenge!

  235. Halalpork786

    # 271. londonspirit Says:

    ""–In any single verse of the quran does it say kill innocnet people. –""

    No Qu'rand does not say that in a SINGLE VERSE:– but in a lot of verses it ask the Muslims to kill the infidels and we are reading all those verses on this website FFI. Why don't you read those yourself. Are you afraid just like your Pedo. Prophet MoHamMad? Are you a yellow dog/pig like your pedo. Mo??

  236. Marie

    ibnsahr wrote:

    I have a lot of muslim friend, we get drunk together, gang bang a girl (seriously), they roll up a joint inside masjid (looking for safe place), while im waiting outside (no way, I get in , if people find me I’ll be damn), the people who regular the nite club, is the same person who cameback the next day to burn it down, see…I didn’t blame my friend, its just Islamic teaching that make people hypocrite?

    Ok I know this non of my business, ibnsahr please try to cool down with the partying. Otherwise you might do something that you will regret.

  237. ibnsahr

    Marie,
    it was just my sinful and immoral past, when im much younger, now i become a bit more conservative, the thing is i dont mind admitting something bad, or even the dirty past of Christianity, but look at this muslim brother from satan, they couldn’t even admitted the individual person who commit 9/11, sure may be its conspiracy or whatever, but still, the 20 or 18 pigs on the planes are muslim, they think the black box didn’t record the “allah is satan” chanting before it slammed the the damn shit. Thanks for you advice if you sincere, sorry.., I been exposed to muslim, some times they say something means differently.

    london spirit, im still waiting:

    "IS INNOCENT KAFIR IS UNBELIVER" ??

    i see you in the next topic, have a good day sir

  238. londonspirit

    so typical you get everyone trying to gang up on the odd one out. You get mohammed using filthy languages and you get marie writing essays on how some people have been treated unjustly in muslims nations.

    Lets talk about malaysia than. Ok i may be of the mark with the 50 % but i wasnt far of because the actual muslim population is Islam (60.4%).
    (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2777.htm)

    Also although

    Islam is the country’s official religion, although the constitution guarantees freedom of religion. More than half the people of Malaysia are Muslims, including nearly all ethnic Malays. Most Chinese are Buddhists, although Confucianism and Daoism (Taoism) are also important. Most Indians practice Hinduism. In Sabah and Sarawak many of the indigenous peoples are Christians, although traditional beliefs are also widely practiced.
    http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761558542_3/M

    Hence freedom of religion is given
    Basically saying that 40 % is of non muslims. In regards to id cards where did i say these countries dont have id cards, rather i said most these muslim nations are poor an cant afford id cards. lets see if they are treated like shit. Obviously marie thought i was twisting her words when i started talking about tourists. Marie you said non muslims in muslim nations are given id cards and treated like shit. You didnt say residents. But lets look at residents anyway. For a country which has 40 % non muslims with a population of 27.5 million hence 11 million non-muslims dont you think that if they were treated like shit there would be a rebellion. If all the muslims in england which account to about 3 % were treated like shit hell will let loose. If all the black people in england which accounts to about the same percentage, let me tell you hell well come to england. So what makes you think if non muslims in malaysia, which is considered to be a first world country treats non-muslims like shit dont you think hell will let loose.

    Use your brains before you talk. Marie there is no point you mentioning all these statements, cause i can countract those statements with hundreds of my own. Your not proving nothing by listing all these incidents because in every nation you have these incidents.

    lets now talk about foriegners working in malaysia

    Ethnic Malays and other indigenous peoples, sometimes known as Malayan peoples, comprised 65 percent of Malaysia’s population at the 2000 census. In Malaysia they are called bumiputera (sons of the soil). Other groups include ethnic Chinese, who constituted 26 percent of the population, and ethnic Indians, who made up about 8 percent. Small numbers of Indonesians, Thai, Europeans, and Australians also live in Malaysia. In West Malaysia ethnic Malays make up a majority of the population. In East Malaysia, however, numerous Dayak ethnic groups constitute a sizable population, as do Chinese, especially in Sarawak. The national language is Bahasa Malaysia (also known simply as Malay), a Malay language of the Austronesian language family. English, Chinese, and Tamil (a Dravidian language of southern India) are also widely spoken.

    So only 65 % are original malaysian and the rest are foreigner. Do you know what would happen if this amount of foreigners came to england. The british people would kick them out. muslims are not racist like the europeans and usa. They can live along side foreigners in peace.

    Another example would be UAE dubai Foreigners now make up some 85 percent of the population. (http://ipsnews.net/migration/stories/welcome.html0 could you imagine 85% of people in usa were foriengeners. The kkk would go on a killing spree like they did previously. But you dont get arabs killing these foreigners. And guess what? it is the europeans who have landed the most prestigious jobs. But yet you dont get arabs complaining. So mohammed why dont you put your head inside your ass and and shit on your face.

    Mohammed you say muslims are killing non-muslims in variety of ways. But murder will always happen. in england everytime a white guy kills a muslim guy am i to blame chrisitanity. U thickos. Get your brain sorted. I am suprised you wo live in a muslim country and probably an apostate are still alive today. Why aint you dead. surely if you live in a muslim country and your a non-muslim who is a apostate should have been long dead.

    Think before you talk xxxx

  239. Marie

    ibnsahr wrote:

    Marie,
    it was just my sinful and immoral past, when im much younger, now i become a bit more conservative, the thing is i dont mind admitting something bad, or even the dirty past of Christianity, but look at this muslim brother from satan, they couldn’t even admitted the individual person who commit 9/11, sure may be its conspiracy or whatever, but still, the 20 or 18 pigs on the planes are muslim, they think the black box didn’t record the “allah is satan” chanting before it slammed the the damn shit. Thanks for you advice if you sincere, sorry.., I been exposed to muslim, some times they say something means differently.

    Agree. Hey I'm conservative but I ain't no saint either. No one's perfect, but at least we admit our faults, unlike the Muslims who come this site who view themselves as pious saints. The Muslims can't even admit that passengers on the plane that was hijacked and crashed in Pennsylvania talked to their loved ones on their cells phone about the hijackers.

  240. pedomo

    #278. londonspirit Says:

    so typical you get everyone trying to gang up on the odd one out. You get mohammed using filthy languages and you get marie writing essays on how some people have been treated unjustly in muslims nations.

    Lets talk about malaysia than.

    Malaysia is not a typical Muslim country, but Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Syria etc, are.

    Another example would be UAE dubai Foreigners now make up some 85 percent of the population.

    The Foreigners in UAE, Duabi etc. are temporary residents. Unlike the West where much of the immigration is based on humanitarian purposes, UAE, Dubai etc. need foreigners to work for them because they don't have enough manpower not because of sympathy or humanitarian purposes.

    The kkk would go on a killing spree like they did previously.

    It looks like you get these ideas from the Islamic websites. Maybe they killed foreigners, but if that happened, it was rare.

    it is the europeans who have landed the most prestigious jobs. But yet you dont get arabs complaining.

    That is because generally arabs are not able do those jobs.

    in england everytime a white guy kills a muslim guy am i to blame chrisitanity.

    Nowadays Christians don't murder in the name of Christianity, but Muslims murder in the name of Islam. So there is an obvious difference.

  241. mohammad

    londonghost, now you're sickeningly cornered and still speaks foul againts the others. you are defending something that you don't know brother. stop it or you're clowning yourself in front of everybody here. the facts you presented about malaysia are wrong. these are polished up information from encarta you're talking about. stupid london ghost.

    you want to disqualify someone who live in malaysia for the last 50 years? shame on you. aside from a constitution that guarantees freedom of religion, there's another clause that disqualifies it entirely. "all malays are automatically muslim" by constitution. don't just take your sources from encarta. to heellll with encarta. it's the oppressed people experience talking here.

    of course msn encarta do not want to have any conflict with malaysian government. just like google conflicts with the chinese government regarding cencorship. you're making yourself more foolish each time you scour the internet and present your facts here without asking permission from the affected people in any particular country,. your condescending attitude is inherited from islam.

    stupid londoner.

  242. Marie

    londonspirit it does not matter what the constitution of these countries say because the constitution of these countries do not reflect the majority of these people.

    "For a country which has 40 % non muslims with a population of 27.5 million hence 11 million non-muslims dont you think that if they were treated like shit there would be a rebellion"

    These people cannot rebel because the law is not on their side and they will be prosecuted and persecuted if they do rebel.

    So only 65 % are original malaysian and the rest are foreigner. Do you know what would happen if this amount of foreigners came to england. The british people would kick them out. muslims are not racist like the europeans and usa. They can live along side foreigners in peace.

    Indigenous Malays are prohibited from leaving Islam. There is a law in Malaysia that does allow the Christian Chinese to move to Malaysia, but the Indigenous Malays are prohibited from leaving Islam or converting to Christianity.

    Another example would be UAE dubai Foreigners now make up some 85 percent of the population. (http://ipsnews.net/migration/stories/welcome.html0 could you imagine 85% of people in usa were foriengeners. The kkk would go on a killing spree like they did previously. But you dont get arabs killing these foreigners. And guess what? it is the europeans who have landed the most prestigious jobs. But yet you dont get arabs complaining. So mohammed why dont you put your head inside your ass and and shit on your face.

    Foreigners are temporary residents, not permenant. The reason why you don't hear arabs complaining because they can't do those jobs.

    Mohammed you say muslims are killing non-muslims in variety of ways. But murder will always happen. in england everytime a white guy kills a muslim guy am i to blame chrisitanity. U thickos. Get your brain sorted. I am suprised you wo live in a muslim country and probably an apostate are still alive today. Why aint you dead. surely if you live in a muslim country and your a non-muslim who is a apostate should have been long dead.

    Don't you get it you little moron? The reason why Muhammad is still alive is because he keeps his apostasy a secret.

  243. Marie

    mohammad wrote:

    you want to disqualify someone who live in malaysia for the last 50 years? shame on you.

    He's an arrogant and ignorant little brat that's for sure.

    aside from a constitution that guarantees freedom of religion, there’s another clause that disqualifies it entirely. “all malays are automatically muslim” by constitution.

    That's what I have been trying to say.

  244. londonspirit

    So typical. Mohammed i dont care if you been living in malaysia for the past 50 years. You say i am ignorant, and you say muslims kill non-beliver. assuming from your name you were a muslim before who has now left.

    And you say muslims kill non-muslims in muslim states and you further go on to say that muslims kill people who are apostates. You are a non-muslim and you were probably also a muslim and you are living in a muslim country. Now if what you say is true. The aint you dead. Why havent you been mudered? . Answer mate. If i am so ignorant to understand that all muslims do is kill i want to know now why your still alive when you left islam and your a non-muslim in a muslim country.

    Now moving onto encarta. It is stupid of you to state that it’s the oppressed people experience talking here. Let me tell you. Encarta is not people speaking. Its one of the best known encyclopedias. For you to state that its a bunch of people wanting to make peace is purely stupid.

    You said i talked crap about malysia an people being treated like shit. I proved you facts and now you disregard these fact and you bring your own interpretation saying there is a clause. And MARIE your the moron because you say non-muslims are treated like shit in muslim countries and that they are killed by muslims in muslim countries. So whether him keeping it to himself it dont matter because it still dont prove the fact that there are 40% non-muslims in malaysia. I am pretty sure they aint keeping that to themselves. Why arent they dead.

    And marie your the moron because you say these people cannot rebel because the law isnt on their side. What has the law got to do with rebelling. When black people werew oppressed by the law in america. Did it stop all those great black men rebelling against the goverment. When gals were not allowed to vote in england. did it stop those woman rebelling against the goverment. You forward some pitiful excuses.

    You say foreigners are tempory residents. How do you know that. I have alot of pakistani mates who have houses in dubai. There are many high rises going up in dubai. If dubai only gave out temporary residents why are all these flats and apartments being brought by foriegners. They arent buying it just for the sake of it. They are buying it to live in them. before you talk crap keep your mouth shut. I can admit that dubai dont give uae passports to anyone but they dont just allow temporary residents to everyone.

    an by u saying that they cant do the job. omg what the hell. Your saying out of the 100 000+ arabs not one single guy can perform to do prestigious jobs. your stupid by commenting such stupidness.

  245. Kafir123

    Dear Ali Sina,

    I am not a religious scholar but am a scientist, In my view Allah can not qualify for the Almighty (God) as long as he ask his followers to kill innocent non Muslims just because he has not given the same degree of wisdom to Non Muslims as he gave it to Muslims so that they can also see the divinity of Islam. This type of Allah will only qualify for a Very Cheap Class Politician.

    I have heard from many Islamic scholars that Islam does not advocate forced conversion, Terrorism etc. and the Muslims, who are doing so, have misunderstood the Koran. How ever they accept that Islam allows poll taxes (Jazia) on non Muslims.

    MY QUESTION IS IF ONE HAS TO CONVERT INTO ISLAM AS HE or SHE CAN NOT AFFORD TO PAY JAZIA TAX AND FORCED TO DO SO BECAUSE OF FINANCIAL CONSTRAIN. CAN THAT CONVERTED MUSLIM BE CALLED A TRUE MUSLIM IN KORANIC CONTEXT AS ISLAM DOES NOT ADVOCATE FORCED CONVERSION?

    As this world is full of that kind of Muslims whose ancestor had to convert into Islam because of Financial constrain and now the Muslims from same ancestral root are coming openly in support of Islam or Sharia. If you look into south Asian region, almost all Muslims are very poor and are the result of Poll taxes. Looking forward for your Answer.

    Thanks

  246. Marie

    londonspirit wrote:

    You said i talked crap about malysia an people being treated like shit. I proved you facts and now you disregard these fact and you bring your own interpretation saying there is a clause. And MARIE your the moron because you say non-muslims are treated like shit in muslim countries and that they are killed by muslims in muslim countries. So whether him keeping it to himself it dont matter because it still dont prove the fact that there are 40% non-muslims in malaysia. I am pretty sure they aint keeping that to themselves. Why arent they dead.

    Why aren't they dead? Hmmm? londonspirit as a Muslim practicing taqiyya you should already know the answer to that question.

    Yes it is true I am a moron. I am a moron for falling for your game. Don't even try to deny it. I won't believe you anyway and this the last time I will be coming back to this discussion, so I won't get to read your response anyway and if you don't like that I am ending this discussion, THEN YOU CAN KISS MY xxx!

  247. mohammad

    london ghost. now you again asserting yourself as stupid moron. i may not be excellent in english. pardon me, i speak & write english as a second or third language. my statement was;

    "bla bla bla….don’t just take your sources from encarta. to heellll with encarta. it’s the oppressed people experience talking here. … bla bla bla"..

    you inferred the last sentence ("it's the oppressed people talking here") was referring to encarta? are you a dimwit or what? no wonder you have these so many conflicting contexts in your life. my mistake, maybe i have to put in some parentheses in my verses next time. easier for a moron like you to understand. just like when you're reading quran, where the scholars over the years had put in many parentheses in between stupid words via muhammad the pedo from allah the pharaoh.

    to make it clear to you, i was referring to me myself talking about my experience and also for all those that are similarly subtly persecuted like me. do you understand that now goose head?

    how many times do i have to tell you? thick skull? i said killing does not necessarily taking one life by smiting their neck. and you still don't understand. be alert. keep track of things brother. but remember to put it in the right context.

    stupid london ghost. very thick skull. truly. you got one clause in the constitution and thought you can get a degree in malaysia constitution? you foreigners who have been shoved only benign information from malaysia. that clause "all malays are automatically muslim' is safeguarded in the constitution. i did not put facts by reading on the internet. it is in the constitution. come on brother i bet you don't even know british constitution. go back to school.

  248. mohammad

    i have to reply to this, another stupid statement from ignorant westerner like you. you said "So only 65 % are original malaysian and the rest are foreigner". you insulted the non-muslims and the minoritiy groups in malaysia by saying that you are declaring that you are the biggest moron of all time.

    it was true that the ancestors of chinese, indians, and others that make up 40% of the people were immigrants. they came to malaysia to earn a living in early 1900's. but how could you say their posterity are foreigners in the land where they are born, grow up, earn a living, and pay taxes? can they not be called the sons/daughters of the land? why do you call them foreigners? this is an affront to the dignity of the people. again this is asserting how stupid you are.

    and to your questions on why the minority do not stage a rebellion. i will answer you that although we are oppressed, we tried hard not to create trouble. and yes most of the minorities are christians, buddhist, etc that are peace loving. we believe god is with us and not resort to violence. unlike muslims.

    stop with your insults against the minority groups. the wound cuts deep when you said such ill informed things.

  249. mohammad

    take a look at this to smash your thick skull

    http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=4157

  250. pedomo

    #288. mohammad Says:

    i have to reply to this, another stupid statement from ignorant westerner like you.

    It looks like he is a muslim posing as westerner.

  251. pedomo

    #284 londonspirit: "You say foreigners are tempory residents. How do you know that. I have alot of pakistani mates who have houses in dubai. There are many high rises going up in dubai. If dubai only gave out temporary residents why are all these flats and apartments being brought by foriegners."

    Pakistanis are Muslims.

  252. Demsci

    I am sorry LondonSpirit, I believe Mohammed. He lived there. And you do not seem to read all these articles on this site that tell us so much that confirms his story.

    You are against Ali Sina's website, but Ali Sina came from Iran. You come from UK. I look global. I think you in respect to your religion do that too. Your utmost loyalty seems to be with the Ummah, the brotherhood of Islam. It is easy for you to get most of your information, from when you were very young, from Islamic sources, from Islamic countries. Or those who influence(d) you were/ are "taking" this information in. You also know much about the real or alleged faults of Western Democratic leaders, but seem ignorant of the far bigger crimes of leaders of Iran or Sudan, North Korea, Zimbabwe, other dictatorial countries. You focus on those wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but they were sanctioned by parliament. Dictatorial leaders kill, imprison, exploit, intimidate people with impunity, Democratic leaders must live within the law.

    When in Islamic nations, especially Iran, there is no freedom of religion (anti-apostasy-laws, threat of violence at apostasy etc), no freedom of speech, ubiquitous Islamic propaganda, then it is only FAIR that Ali Sina has an opposition website here. He is protester, defender, the ones he protests, defends against are infinitely worse than he is. He is determined to remain non-violently, giving people like you free speech etc.

    In # 57 countries Islamic leaders do not give equal rights-opportunities to the followers of the other 6 faith-categories; Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Freethinkers, Divers. Vice versa Muslims almost everywhere do get equal rights, opportunities from the rest. This is shown hundreds of times in this website.

    It would be impossible for you to refute all those stories and also to present the reverse stories in order to show us a real balance between Muslims and believers of the other 6 faiths.

    So in our view, before you even begin to criticize this site, if you are honest, you should first endeavour to help bring about such a global balance, global equal rights and opportunities for the followers of all faiths. If that is achieved, then you also can have many good points, like with crime&rape-statistics in which you may (may!) be right.

  253. londonspirit

    Mohammed. I cant belive this you say you cant speak english properly but the secxond time round you explained it very well and to the point. Why couldnt you explain it like the first time. ok you live in malaysia. why dont you tell me what kind of people have the most prestigious jobs mohammed. And be honest. Do you see alot of europeans in malaysia. Are they being oppressed?

    And Marie I really dont know why they arent dead yet. If i did I wouldnt have posed the question. So why dont you explain to me why they aint dead yet, it you say muslims kill non-muslims in islamic states. Please I really want too know the logic. And Mohammed people wont smite peoples neck nowadays. ok . we still not living in 1800. You say the wounds cut deep with such ill information. Mate i dont want to say anything bad in regards to anyone. But when you call the prophet of islam such filthy words like pedo and so on what do you think that does to the muslim community. Its a two way street mohammed. When you insult you have to accept.

    And Marie stop saying kiss my ass. I have already told you i dont wanna kiss your ugly ass.

    Pedomo yes I am a muslim. dirrr. otherwise why would I be here defending islam. And yes my great grandad aint english. yes he is a foriegner, which makes me 1/6th foreign.

  254. londonspirit

    And yes mohammed i dont know any consititution of england. Cause I hate politics and I aint interested. I know not to offend no one or hurt anyone so I will always be away from the law. And DEMSCI by the way u will never ever believe what I have to say. But it dont concern me. All i will say is open your eyes. I want this site closed only because this sites doesnt promote peace but hate.

    wHY I SAY THIS is because look at the filthy languages people use. And how they express their hatred. This aint peace. Open your eyes demsci AND SEE IF WHAT ALI SINA IS SAYING IS CORRECT in saying muslims kill non-muslims in muslms states, but what you hear is a few uneducated one or two individual who commit the crime and the rest shocked and disgusted with the actions. I have already proved that americans are the biggest criminals. But you say that you can rely on these data in muslim countries but yet again i proved that amercia has more crime then a lot of muslim nations put together and you still make excuse.

    I prove to you the america has the most rapists in the world and that rapists in america are likely to go on an on an on and commit rape but the chances they will be sentenced is very low. But yet you deny the islamic statistics.

    You keep mentioning dictatorship, which has nothing to do with islam. And you mention democracy,which i have never objected to.

    I even proved 9/11 but yet you deny. I am opening your eyes but you refuse to see. You try to open my eyes about islam. I investigate and i answer you back. aND FROM THIS i HAVE ESTABLISHED THAT EVERY VERSE ALI SINA HAS MENTIONED IN REGARDS TO KILLING IS OUT OF CONTEXT.

  255. mohammad

    londonspirit, what you said are not true. you have proved it yourself that you are indeed an ignorant person. you ventured to study malaysian constitution of only one clause and swagger with that. and yet you don't know the constution of your own country. what kind of loser are you?

    i aint accusing when i said muhammad is a paedo, and a paedo is a filthy person. i gave all the facts to rebut what you said about malaysians and its constitutions. and they are true. but you are just gibbering when you tried to disqualify the statement that muhammad is a paedophile. you gave all sort of conjectures with unrealiable quotes and parentheses. and of that it was a mistake in ayisha age when muhammad stick his erect pecker into her. please give a reliable reasons and sources when you want to say that muhammad is not a paedophile.

    you should be the one to open your eyes. brother, we are not againts you but we are against what you believe, that filthy islam. free yourself from that gangrene of societies and you will find peace. please apostatize and bring along your grandmother too. we the unbelievers will be more than happy to embrace you.

  256. continuum1

    By the way, even though the hadith literature paints Muhammad as a ‘pedophile’ no where in the Qur’an does it say that he had sex with young girls. My point was that this was an ideal of the society (not unlike prominent Romans having young boys) and this is projected on Muhammad. In other words, as a historian, there is no good evidence that this occurred.

    1. Did you not write in your article that quran itself was written later and that it cannot be trusted? Then why do you look for quran testimonials on this?

    2. Read verses 33:49 and 65:4 from Quran? I did a grammatical analysis some years before on this verse 65:4 by referring to some published works on Arabic language.

    wikiislam.com/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Qur%27an#Detailed_analysis_of_the_verse_in_Arabic

    It confirms that Muhammad indeed practiced pedophilia just like others. However how can this act be justified in a man of God? Surely something is rotten n this religion.

    3. This evil man Mo was a slave trader and owned sex slaves as per quran.

    Al-Ahzab – 33:50

    O Prophet (Muhammad SAW)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those (captives or slaves) whom your right hand possesses – whom Allâh has given to you,

    It is quite plausible that this fellow was a pedophile too as Sahih hadiths, considered by many Muslim scholars as authentic, confirms the same. Also take a look at point 1 where quran confirms pedophilia.

  257. continuum1

    Most scholars interpret sura 65:4 not as immature but as not pregnant,

    Who are these so called scholars? Can you list them and give their translations?

    [Shakir 65:4] And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

    [Yusufali 65:4] Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

    [Pickthal 65:4] And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him.

    islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=65

    (65:4) The waiting period of those of your women who have lost all expectation of menstruation shall be three months12 in case you entertain any doubt; and the same shall apply to those who have not yet menstruated.13 As for pregnant women, their waiting period shall be until the delivery of their burden.14 Allah will create ease for him who fears Allah.

    *13 They may not have menstruated as yet either because of young age, or delayed menstrual discharge as it happens in the case of some women, or because of no discharge at aII throughout life which, though rare, may also be the case. In any case, the waiting-period of such a woman is the same as of the woman, who has stopped menstruation, that is three months from the time divorce was pronounced.
    Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Qur'an the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consumation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also pemssible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur'an has held as permissible.
    The girl who is divorced in the state when she has not yet menstruated and then she starts having the menses during the waiting-period, will reckon her waiting-period from the same mentruation and her waiting-period will be reckoned just like the woman who menstruates regularly.

    I hope you read what real Muslim scholars say.

  258. prottier

    Okay Continuum1
    I am going to try to break this down as easily as possible. I did not say that the verse said no child, I said a better English variation would be no child instead of no courses. As I stated earlier, I do not read Arabic–I do read the Central asian Turkic languages for my research. The idea that one would need to read 33:49 and then 64:5 to be instructed that pedophilia was prescribed by Islam is ludicrous. What I said is since sura 64:5 mentions menopausal women and pregnant women it is reasonable to assume that the other type of wife a man would have would be a non-pregnant, non-menopausal one. Instead you assume that it is a pre-pubescent one. Okay, I give up, your argument makes much more sense now that I see it so clearly. There simply weren't any non-pregnant, child-bearing women in Arabia at the time. Thank you for setting me straight.

  259. focussed

    Prottier,
    Indeed there are many violent episodes occurring today in our world. You name but 2 that have Muslim aggressors and I do not accuse them. There are Jews that think Israel needs to expand to its ‘original’ borders, however ill-defined and expel all who are not Jewish.

    There are countless others which I did not show. I thought you as a historian will know more. Please plot a map of all violent areas and you will be surprised to see how many areas have muslim populations responsible for that violence.

    The Russians have led devastating attacks against Chechens,

    Russis is also lead by people who follow a similar ideology.

    Karimov, the president of Uzbekistan, has killed thousands of Muslims simply for attending the ‘wrong’ mosque and China ruthlessly persecutes Uighurs.

    Just goes to show how crazy Islam is. Muslims first kill non-muslims and when there are no more non-muslims to kill, they turn on each other. You have just proved my point with your own example.


    Why would this convince me that all Muslims are inherent killers or ignorant of their own faith when history does not bear this out?

    There are 57 muslim countries and please go and check the population changes of minorities since islam took over. Can you show me one islamic country where minority population has increased after Islam?

  260. Ibn Kammuna

    Dr. Prottier,
    you are simplifying how Muslims view the Qur'an and Hadith. Especially hadith. Muhammad is an example for any Muslim to emulate for all time. That is what is dangerous about Islam. Muhammad was a pedophile, a mass murderer, a looter,..etc. Islam itself is no more than a fascistic ideology.
    I grew up in the middle east. My parents were Greek Orthodox Christians. If you think Islamic communities do not discriminate against other religious groups and against women, you are sadly mistaken.
    To "reform Islam" you have to pretty much get rid of most of the Qur'an. Just keep a few good Ayas from the Meccan period, thats all. No Muslim will accept such a mandate.
    Let me suggest, in addition to reading Sina's book, that you get M A Khan book "Islamic Jihad". Do not think that Islam spread by peaceful means. it did not. It is one of the most barbaric and evil belief systems I have ever seen. Most Muslims are nice people. This is not because they are Muslims. This is because they are not practicing Muslims. The more a Muslim emulates Muhammad, the more evil he/she becomes.
    I am just amazed that you have a PhD, and claim you are not an expert on Islam, then come here and try to defend substantial Islamic creeds. Not only that, you are undermining how Muslims view hadith. If you take the Qur'an to some people of an Island and ask them to practice Islam, did you know that they will not be able to do that without Hadiths to tell them what, when and how to do it?
    If you are not an expert on Islam, Islamic creeds, or how Muslims live, there is really no need for you to defend Islam. There is no need to say Sina's claims are not that good. How do you know that if you yourself admit that you are no expert on Islam?
    Could it be that you think that his logical arguments are not that good? Well, did you have a course in Logic to start with? Did you know that I can translate the main arguments of Sina in his challenge to a "Modus Ponens" form. His arguments are irrefutable from a logical standpoint. Yet, you come to this forum, and tell us you are not an expert on Islam, then say that Sina's challenge is not worrisome for Muslims. My suggestion is that you stick to your history area of expertise and leave Islam to those who know how to study it. Peace

  261. prottier

    Anti-Jihad,

    Why do you find it peculiar that I would mention Russia and China? Russia has a long history of fighting with Muslims. Chechen itself is a dirty word. I noticed you did not find it ironic that I also named an Islamic country, Uzbekistan for persecuting Muslims. Again, while I am bored writing this, my point is that not all Muslims want to fight a jihad, in fact most do not. Most Muslims in the world admire the west, which is why they migrate their in great numbers. That said, I am not oblivious to the fact that there are some Muslims that hold similar views of their faith as posters to this board and we need to do a better job of preventing this from happening. But simply condemning 1.2 billion people is not at all helpful and not practical and if the goal is to understand the terrorist mindset in order to help defeat terrorism.

  262. continuum1

    The idea that one would need to read 33:49 and then 64:5 to be instructed that pedophilia was prescribed by Islam is ludicrous.

    Why? Again did you go to the link which provides commentaries by many Islamic scholars belonging to different times?

    Only a Muslim argues in this ludicrous manner as you do.

    …….. Okay, I give up, your argument makes much more sense now that I see it so clearly. There simply weren’t any non-pregnant, child-bearing women in Arabia at the time. Thank you for setting me straight.

    Did you not claim you were a researcher in history? How do you know if some interpretation is true according to tradition? You look for commentaries of traditional scholars.

    Now tell me which traditional scholar claims that it does NOT refer to immature girls at all. On the other hand I can show you many traditional commentaries which do talk about immature girls. All those commentaries and Hadiths are given in the link for your reference. However I think you have an agenda and will come up with another new strategy.

    altafsir.org/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=65&tAyahNo=4&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

    Tafsir al-Jalalayn

    And [as for] those of your women who (read allā’ī or allā’i in both instances) no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed [waiting] period shall be three months, and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months —

    altafsir.org/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=65&tAyahNo=4&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

    Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs

    (And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months.

    altafsir.org/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=65&tAyahNo=4&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

    Asbab Al-Nuzul by Al-Wahidi

    (And for such of your women as despair of menstruation…) [65:4]. Said Muqatil: “When the verse (Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart…), Kallad ibn al-Nu‘man ibn Qays al-Ansari said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, what is the waiting period of the woman who does not menstruate and the woman who has not menstruated yet? And what is the waiting period of the pregnant woman?’ And so Allah, exalted is He, revealed this verse”. Abu Ishaq al-Muqri’ informed us> Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah ibn Hamdun> Makki ibn ‘Abdan> Abu’l-Azhar> Asbat ibn Muhammad> Mutarrif> Abu ‘Uthman ‘Amr ibn Salim who said: “When the waiting period for divorced and widowed women was mentioned in Surah al-Baqarah, Ubayy ibn Ka‘b said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, some women of Medina are saying: there are other women who have not been mentioned!’ He asked him: ‘And who are they?’ He said: ‘Those who are too young [such that they have not started menstruating yet], those who are too old [whose menstruation has stopped] and those who are pregnant’. And so this verse (And for such of your women as despair of menstruation…) was revealed”.

    tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=65&tid=54223

    Tafsir Ibn Kathir

    (and for those who have no courses…) as for His saying;

    (if you have doubt…) There are two opinions: First, is the saying of a group of the Salaf, like Mujahid, Az-Zuhri and Ibn Zayd. That is, if they see blood and there is doubt if it was menstrual blood or not. The second, is that if you do not know the ruling in this case, then know that their `Iddah is three months. This has been reported from Sa`id bin Jubayr and it is the view preferred by Ibn Jarir. And this is the more obvious meaning. Supporting this view is what is reported from Ubay bin Ka`b that he said, "O Allah's Messenger! Some women were not mentioned in the Qur'an, the young, the old and the pregnant.'' Allah the Exalted and Most Honored sent down this Ayah,

    All the traditional commentators confirm pedophilia being taught in Islam. However useful idiots will go on repeating their nonsense.

  263. prottier

    Hello Ibn Kammuna,
    I did not say I was not an expert on Islam, on the contrary, what I said from the beginning is that I am not an Islamic religious scholar. I mentioned to Mr. Sina that I am not a prominent scholar, someone that has a big name–I tend to write on the emergence of Central Asian nationalism under Russian colonization. But I am formally trained as an Islamic Historian. I worked closely under Kemal Karpat at Wisconsin, he is the author of over 20 scholarly books and 100s of articles on modern Islam. He has since retired. His expertise was the Ottoman Empire. I also do not see myself as defending Islam. I am opposed to Mr. Sina's idea that Muslims are either violent jihadists or ignorant of their faith. Just as I am against the notion that Islam is incapable of reform because it has reformed itself many times–why do you think the jihadists need to flee to Pakistan or Somalia? They had to get out of Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other places where they likely would have been executed by now.

  264. Anti-Jihad

    " am not saying that past racism is okay and I do not say that terrorists are just fine either. So it has little to do with situational ethics."

    No not racism Dr. Rottier, but pedophilia. Can I please so kindly as to remind you of what you said in your e-mail to Ali Sina, in which you said: "You accuse Muhammad of pedophilia but what criteria are you using? I’m sure you will want to chalk this up to moral or situational relevance but it is true that in 7th century Arabia a man’s prominence was directly associated with the number of wives as well as their youth and virginity."

    Now if this is not situational ethics/cultural relativism, then I'm not sure what you call it. But now, allow me to refine my question to ask you not just about the Jim-Crow laws, but about black slavery in general: what was so wrong about slavery in Southern-America during the 19th century when "it is true that a man's prominence was directly associated with the number of black slaves he had?"

    "My point was to understand where these ideas come from not to condone them, but to give perspective."

    Giving perspective is necessarily an act of subjectivity and require compromises in which you condone certain causes behind certain events in certain periods of history at the expense of exaggerating others.

    "My point has been from the beginning that Mr. Sina paints Islam with a broad brush and states that Muslims either all adhere to this fundamentalist philosophy or they are ignorant of their true faith."

    He is merely giving his perspective on Islam, yes? What makes his perspective more deficient than yours? Also, you are aware of the fact that the fundamentalist/reformist distinction people make about Islam is spurious given how Islam has never undergone a reformation on the same scale and scope as that of the Christian reformation?

    "There is not only more than one reading of how to interpret Islam but it has been interpreted throughout history in many different ways. The Muslims I study from the late 19th and early 20th century in Central Asia certainly do not match Mr. Sina’s vision. They were modernists who used the Qur’an and Hadith to demonstrate that women deserved rights, that elections should be held, that progress was part and parcel of Islam."

    How are "human rights, elections and progress" part and parcel of Islam if Muslims define themselves in opposition to the Crusades (and, by extension, Western Civilization)? How are these institutions of democratic governance part and parcel of Islam if they are seen as the constitutive parts for the formative whole of America's grand strategy of imperialism in the Middle East? And last but not least, How are they part and parcel of Islam when religious minorities are persecuted in places like Indonesia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. on a daily basis?

    "There are mhny voices like these in the Muslim world and there are the other voices–the bin Laden’s who use Islam and his interpretation to promise young men (bin Laden himself said that 15-25 year old young men are the best adherents of his brand of Islam) a great life and future–even though it will be in the hereafter and not on earth."

    If there are many other branches of Islam, why these branches do not protest the bombings of 9/11? Why they do not comdemn the massacre of the Iran-iraq War, when the Sunni-Shia religiously motivated war was responsible for the deaths of over 1 million people? Why they did not condemn Saddam hussein (by the way, I was not a support of the Iraq War) when he massacre the Kurds and the Sunni minority? How to explain his strange Muslim-on-Muslim violence phenomenon?

    "If this site were serious about Islamic militancy it would be proposing serious solutions instead of railing against the religion."

    You are missing the point. The root of Islamic militancy is Islam, ergo the solution is to eradicate Islam.

  265. subanallah

    Harry Potter (prottier) has excellent agenda here.

    Respected PhD Prottier,
    Many people wrote/say that Muhammad (pbuh) raided and stole wealth. Personally, HE (pbuh) is showing us survival skills which is still applicable even for today. Goodluck with your debate and I am eagerly looking for it. I was a fan of a clown name WAHID. I thought that guy knew about quran and science.

  266. prottier

    Mr. Sina,

    I am sorry, I did not realize you attached your book. If it is good could I assign it for one of my courses? In other words, do you mind if I allow my students to view the PDF in a closed forum, meaning I would not freely publish the book for all to see but allow my students to read it. I am teaching an Islamic Civilizations course this summer. While we will not delve into the religious texts, but instead focus on the various societies it is good to expose students to a variety of opinions.

  267. continuum1

    Don't you think it is likely that a pedophile approves of pedophilia in his book, in some way. Muhammad, being a pedo himself, he approved the same in indirect manner. You cannot expect criminals and pedos to approve their own behavior in explicit manner. They will invent new reasons for the same and new ways to approve of their ways. After all this is how criminal minds work.

  268. prottier

    1. I thought you are done for the day. What happened?

    I am backing up a bunch of work on my computer and the network is slow so I came back. I am going now, and will be please to come back tomorrow to continue if you like.

  269. prottier

    continuum1

    You cannot expect criminals and pedos to approve their own behavior in explicit manner.

    But if this was accepted practice in the 7th century he isn't covering up is he? And why did he take 3 years to rape Aisha, he married her when she was 6 but didn't consummate until she was 9? Maybe he was into older girls.

  270. continuum1

    But if this was accepted practice in the 7th century he isn’t covering up is he? And why did he take 3 years to rape Aisha, he married her when she was 6 but didn’t consummate until she was 9? Maybe he was into older girls.

    LOL….

    Alin Sina and others. Please take note of this argument by Prottier. I think this guy is a fake and request you to track his IP address and Jah's IP address. These arguments are typical Islamic arguments.

    1. If it was accepted practice the there is no need to explicitly state it in Quran as well.

    2. I do not think Christians and Jews in Mecca accepted this practice. Not all groups accepted pedophilia. May be this is why he was hiding this.

    3. Three years may have been the tribal custom. 9 years could be the tribal custom that allowed consummation.

  271. Demsci

    Mr Rottier, I am so glad you came to this forum. Not because I agree with you, but because you give us, at least me, so much to think about. I learned so much from you, as before from Ali Sina, and before and now from the other posters.

    My priority lies with determining if there is indeed a threat or not? And a threat to what and from whom? In what direction will mankind evolve in the 21st century is the first and foremost issue for me. And to cut to the chase; Will eventually by far the most people live under democracy or under authoritarian regimes?

    So we here are among the "Democrats". Then there exist the Theocrats, who have an alternative way of organising society. They claim to have instructions from God Himself and to know how to implement those. And it looks like they want to do this in an authoritarian way, really threathening democracies. As they feel threathened by democracy, which would erode their authority. It seems of paramount importance to me to assess what their and our chances of success are, worldwide in the 21st century. Very relevant to this is the number of Muslims, where they reside and how they interpret Islam, what society they prefer.

    For reasons abundantly pointed out in this site we prefer a Democratic outcome worldwide in the 21st century I suppose. So also in most of the current "Islamic" countries. I suppose we look more and more global now, with ever more people getting an education, learning how to speak English and how to use the internet or the many travel-opportunities nowadays.

    If what you say by and large is true, then I am so glad, relieved, because then there is no threat to our democracy. But I like us to aspire to more; to export democracy to these tyrannical Islamic societies.

    I think Democracy brings with it liberation (as opposed to already ubiquitous coercion in authoritarian countries), autonomy of the individual and free speech. It brings Faith Freedom International, Ali Sina's goal, a fair competition between all faiths in all countries. And quite probably more prosperity and happiness, which also is a beautiful goal, is it not?

    Why in the hell should ANY RELIGION, be so outrageously favored in any country as Islam now is in 57 Islamic countries? And why should we accept this, when Islam gets equal chances in our own countries? It simply is blatantly unjust to all the other faiths and under worldwide democracy more justice would be done I feel. Of course it is a long process, but in my view it can be a long-term goal. And we hear that the Theocrats have their own long-term-goals. So; let both sides have them and let the best "system" win.

    It is in this context of a desired future and threat to it that I like us to examine the past of all human groups, peoples, followers of all kinds of faith and compare them to our hearts content. Then too we could examine the truth or lack thereof of Islam and all other religions, theories, ways of organising society. While still upholding the right to believe in all of them for all. Because under a theocracy we would not be able to do this! The ones that survive I mean.

  272. continuum1

    Tell me Prottier, if you say it was tribal custom, why are you denying pedophilia of Muhammad? What is your agenda?

  273. pathfinder

    To JAH's 10 points (Comment 16):
    First of all 1400 years ago there was no Islam and evil man has decended on earth from time to time and have taken independent evil acts. If you have studied something about major religion, then should know no religion except Islam asks for killing others just because he doesnt follow him. In recent times the Mao Zedong was a copy of Mohomet. Mao had done evil of ruining the civilization of ancient chinese, tibet, mongolia and uighur. He wanted all to be sinised. Peoples are fools who think that one person's contribution is enough for mankind. World is because of prophets, thinkers or avatars of gods like Budhha, Christ, Ram, Krishna, Socrates, Mahavira, Zarathustra etc. People have right to practice there own religion, even some people consider there parents as god, what harm in that? What's the reason to destroy old great sculptors of pre islamic Zarastrian places, Biblical churches, Hindu temples, christian sculptors and creating stupid mosques on top of those ruins? Why big libraries like Alexandia in Egypt and Nalanda are ruined. The people who did this quoted from Quran and did this, also recently Taliban quoted that Buddha is evil and destroyed bamiyan temples, no strikes in afghanistan, pakistan etc while some cartoons of mohomet were published muslims showed there fangs.
    Point 1 ,2 & 3 are cases of some evil kings who acted on there own on reckesness and not quoted from any quran like book.
    Point 4, Regarding crusades, first tell me what muslims were doing in the holy place of jews and christians. If now suppose some christian country attack mecca and madina and built church what will be muslim reaction to this. Remember now christian world has that power to do this. Even see the tolerance of British who had the mandate of Palestine but never broken the dome of rock, they were absolute power at that time. Yes killing was not ok and they themselves tell this but no muslims tell and say sorry for the killings for the 1400 years???? British have movie and tell clearly thay killing civilians was bad, which is a hallmark of "Muslims" and now all muslims are barking on this.

  274. Marie

    prottier wrote:

    Yes, the reconquista lasted for over 500 years. My point was that the kind Spanish deceitfully killed the last of the Jews and Moors after forcibly converting them to Christianity to ensure their entrance into heaven. Your post seem to condone the action, since these were Muslims who had conquered Spain in the 8th century and lived and intermarried with the population for hundreds of years, it was good that after torturing them, forcibly converting them to Catholicism that then you could drown them since it was their ancestors who had the audacity to invade Spain. I wonder if native Americans should be able to do this to Americans. After all we conquered them, settled their land, tried to kill them off, etc… and we were only here since the 16th century so surely they should round us up, torture, convert and kill Americans. Makes sense.

    Number 1: The Muslims were not innocent, they too killed many Jews along with the Christians.

    Philosopher Maimonides, a Jew who lived for a time in Muslim Spain and then fled from the supposedly tolerant and pluralistic land, remarked you know by brethren, on that account of our sins God has cast us into the midst of this people, the nation of Ishmeal, who persecute us severely, and who devise ways to harm us and to debase us…. No nation has ever done more harm to Israel. None has match it in debasing and humiliating us. None has been able to reduce us as they have… We have borne their imposed degradation, their lies, and absurdities which are beyond human power to bear.

    Maria Rosa Menocal, in her romantic and fantastic hagiography of Muslim Spain, The Ornament of the World, acknowledges the second class status of the Jews and Christians.

    In return for this freedom of religious conscience the Peoples of the Book were required to pay a special tax-no Muslims paid taxes-and to observe a number of restrictive regulations: Christians and Jews were prohibited from attempting to proselytize to the Muslims, from building new places of worship, from displaying crosses or ringing bells.

    Historian Richard Fletcher stated "Moorish Spain was not a tolerant and enlightened society even in it's most cultivated epoch.

    On Dec. 30 1066 about 4 thousand Jews in Granada were murdered by rioting Muslims who resented the fact a Jewish vizier Samuel Ibn Naghrila and his son had power over them, which they saw as a breach of sharia law. The mob was incited to kill Jews by the poem of Muslim Jurist Abu Ishaq; I myself arrived in Granada and saw that Jews were meddling in it's affairs…so hasten to slaughter of them as a good work whereby you will earn God's favor, and offer them up in sacrifice, a well fattened ram.

    No killing off the Muslims was not good. No the Muslims were in no way the innocent people that you historians love to portray them as.

    Conquistadors were considered soldiers of Christ. They conquered in the name of Christianity. You are predating the advent of mercantilism by over a hundred years. Others needed colonies first before this occurred. And I did state that the Church did not like the idea of converted natives being treated so bad so those that ran the mines simply refused to allow missionaries to convert them–problem solved.

    The Conquistadores were mercanaries sent to Latin America by the Spanish Crown, not the Church.

  275. Marie

    There is a book called Christian Martyrs in Muslim Spain by Kenneth Baxter Wolf, chronicles Christians who were killed by Muslims.

  276. pathfinder

    Point 5: Hitler and stalin were born christian but converted to Nazi and Leninist communist, both are different from christian. Infact christian world were against them. Hitler used to love Muslims and told Islam suited Nazism better than Christianity. Similarly Mohomet was un-islamic upto 40 years and when he got mental propblem after that created a religion islam like Nazism.
    Point 6: For you kind knowledge Einstein gave the easist way to build energy and told mass can be converted to energy and its the energy of the future, In many european countries where there is no oil, sunlight its the best source of energy. Now tell me with "Knife" we can cut vegetable which a non-muslim will think but a muslim will think of slaghtering using "halal". Similarly fire can be used as cooking etc by non-muslims while muslims for burning people and houses.

    Point 7: No doubt it was crime against humanity and America acknowledge it and no where anybody quoted from bible that it is justified. For a quick victory they used the weopon and still america feels pain to Japan and now due to there openly acknowledge and they are friends. In wars like Iraq Iran war , Saddam used chemical weapons , nobody quotes that as Jihad (?). But on a continous basis muslims have killed with impunity for 1400 years are earned title of ghazi. Recently Kunter in Libenanon was given hero welcome as he killed a family and small girl in Isreal.

  277. ibrahim

    prottier Says:

    Indeed there are many violent episodes occurring today in our world. You name but 2 that have Muslim aggressors and I do not accuse them.

    Wow! this one sentence has exposed this man! He does not accuse the people involved in the genocides in Kashmir and Lebanon. The has proven himself to be a bigoted person who cannot be trusted henceforward.
    In kashmir all the Hindus were forced out of their ancestral lands by Muslims and this is all this so called Phd could say. Shame on you, you not just bigoted but also insane for saying this. I am sure you also believe that the Holocaust is myth. Shame on you.

  278. ibrahim

    prottier, you were complaining about Sina using the sort of language he did and even called him childish. Now let us see a few of your gems:

    If you think I give a rat’s ass about your ignorant opinion I don’t Mr. Atheist.

    Now, if you have nothing constructive to say I suggest you F___ Off!

    hmmm, I wonder if this fake Phd guy has even been to grade school judging by the sort of language he uses.

  279. Ibn Kammuna

    Dr. Prottier,
    thanks for your replies. I realize its been a long day for you responding to all, trying to at least. I wish some of those folks are more decent in their language. I think you are a decent scholar who is trying to offer his views too. I respect that. Thank you.
    As for my post, you have taken my analysis down a "slippery slope" logical fallacy. I do not advocate killing anyone. Actually, I am a Mennonite myself. You being in Ohio, I think, know probably that we are pacifists. First, just to let you know, my best friend in town here is from a Muslim background. I grew up in the middle east. Many of my dear brothers are Muslims. I believe in communication, discussion of thoughts. I believe in human intellect. When Islam is put under scrutiny, people will realize how evil a doctrine it is, and will leave the faith, or neutralize it (which is in effect not practicing true Islam (By the way, true Islam is what is taught in the Qur'an, and also practiced by Muhammad- we know the latter through Hadith and Sirat. I know you have doubts on this, but this is essential for Muslims)
    Have a good evening brother. Please read the link Sina has posted on reforming Islam. It is a fine piece of research article in my view. Sincerely..IK

  280. continuum1

    So over 200 years after the death of Muhammad Bukhari and 5 other noted scholars sat down and tried to ‘divine’ what was authentic and what was not. Oh, and guess what, at that time scholars worked for the emirs, the government paid them to do research. So as I have stated before, I am not a Muslim and do not read Hadith literature like it is fact. As a historian I interrogate every source I use to try to discern what I can realistically gleen from it.

    1. If Hadith cannot be used as historical source then what is historical source according to you?

    2. What criterion do you use to realistically glean (NOT gleen) anything from historical sources if any?

    Hadith literature, while an important source of Islamic law is not a great historical source because of the dating and the fact that much of it was created to solve problems as they came up. (How convenient if we could see a problem and suddenly a Hadith appears that solves it.)

    I think this is a reasonable point, but only for the fact that you do not have any other source as history contradicting Hadiths.

    It is only reasonable to think that laws are direct outcome of teachings and/or acts of those you hold in esteem in religion(s). Your contention that some people created Hadiths to peddle their agenda, is unsupported imagination of yours. Do you have any special reason to believe as such?

    As I stated earlier, I think the idea that Aisha was 6 when she married Muhammad and 9 when they had sex is much more a product of trying to glorify the virtues of purity and virginity. The Hadith collectors in no way were trying to slander their prophet–as I stated earlier it was a sign of respect.

    This is a perfectly valid point of yours, but only that this does NOT change anything regarding pedophilia practices of Islam. It only confirms my point that pedophilia was looked upon as something good for men, as Islam values young virgin girls.

  281. Ali Sina

    Prottier said: ” I am sorry, I did not realize you attached your book. If it is good could I assign it for one of my courses?”

    Yes I already welcomed this initiative and thanked Dr. Rottier in an email for that.

    subanallah Said:
    “I think students should be involved and they should post all their discussion on the forum.”

    That is an excellent idea. But if they do, they should join anonymously so they can have freedom to speak their minds.

  282. prottier

    Yes ibrahim,

    I did start to lose it, as I said I could from the beginning. And I have no problem speaking like my dad spoke to me growing up in a factory town. My 3 brother still live there and all work in the mills. So throwing around the f-word is quite easy for me to do. Now, more importantly sir, where did Mr. Atheist and the other trolls come up with the idea that my arguments constituted advocating child rape? Do you also believe that this is what I am arguing. And please, since you question my credentials — I at least clearly showed where I was coming from. I am not a Muslim, I am not a religious scholar, I am a trained historian. I teach at Cleveland and Kent State Universities and work at CSU as an instructional designer–teach faculty how to better utilize technology in their teaching. That is who I am and where my arguments stem. Having idiots say that I am defending Muhammad and child sex clearly ticked me off. Now, let's have your credentials sir. Who are you? What is your education or experience on this topic? Why do you believe that all Muslims are either jihadists or just ignorant of true Islam? I did call Dr. Sina's analogy of me being anally raped childish and he has since, very respectfully apologized to be personally and removed that part of his response to me. If mratheist responds and answers my questions of where I defended pedophilia or where I even defended Muhammad and does so with some dignity I would be more than happy to apologize for calling him an idiot. I never lied about who or what I was. All I wanted was to have an honest debate because when I read what is on sites like this, as I mentioned previously to IK, it certainly reminds me of Nazi newspaper articles I read that take pieces of the Torah and the Talmud and concoct a tale of Jewish vileness. I certainly do not believe that Jews are looking to take over the world and enslave the rest of us and I don't believe that the mass majority of Muslims believe in violent jihad, I have posted my reasons and clearly the history does not bear this out. For a religion to spread as widely as Islam and only have a brief, few periods of conquest, an even slower rate of conversion–biggest myth around is Islam was spread by the sword; the Umayyads saw islam as an Arab religion, and Abbasids wanted the extra taxes, no one wanted the populations to convert–lost revenue–it clearly did not seek to create a world wide caliphate. Chingiz Khan wanted to conquer the world and he did–at least the known world. Are you afraid of his animistic religion? The Mongols are still around and a bit restless. They still believe in Tengri, are you afraid yet? What if one of them wants to recreate the great adventures of Chingiz? Watch out for the horse warriors!

  283. proudkafir

    I wonder what exactly Mr Rottier wants to say?
    Ilsam means peace and all moslems are peacefull people and want to live and let live people of other religions as equals, in islamic countries. My response Blah
    Mohammad never had sex with ayesha aged 9, though he may have thighed her from 6 to 9 years of age! Give me another
    Mohammad never killed any one and all the islamic wars were and are defensive wars.HAhaha
    Mohammad did receive the message from the great allah and you can not dispute that.So do many mentally deranged patients
    Moslems are the best and peaceful, loving, compassionate people on earth.Yeh look at afghanisthan, the most compassionate place on earth
    Moslems do not allow pedophilia and their definition of pedophilia is different. true .A moslem views any female from day 1 as vagina wating to grow up!
    Mohammad's pedophilia is not be discussed as we have shown ayesha was a big grown up girl from birth.
    Islam is the best man kind has ever had. OBL perhaps?
    There now does that make you feel better?
    Just a little thought.is sodi barbaria funding this university? Hmm I wonder.

  284. Ali Sina

    “I did call Dr. Sina’s analogy of me being anally raped childish and he has since, very respectfully apologized to be personally and removed that part of his response to me.”

    Obviously you have not been raped by Islam yet, or you would not be taking side with it. Most of us here have been, and I warn you to be careful. You are flirting with a wrong religion. Islam has been raping our countries, our cultures, our identity and even our intelligence for 1400 years. Islamic countries are backward, to the extent that Islam has been shoved in their derriere. We are not naturally stupid. It's Islam that made us this way.

  285. Ali Sina

    Speaking of rape, see this email I received just now.

    fromAdam mia <adam .mia@hotmail.co.uk>
    Thu, May 28, 2009
    mailed-byhotmail.co.uk

    Dear warmongering bastards,

    Give me your mothers number so i can come down there and rape the bitch, you motherfucking jew bastards.

    _____

    Now don't you agree that this perosn hauling from UK is badly screwed? This poor man is the victim of Islamic rape.</adam>

  286. prottier

    focussed Says:
    May 29th, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    "let us take one example. British rules India for 250+ years but how many temples/mosques did they demolish?"

    Are you asserting that the degree is directly correlated to Islam? The British were certainly not benevolent rulers. Two incidents are the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre and the Komagata Maru incident. Certainly European colonizers saw themselves as vastly superior and many, including eminent Scientist Karl Pearson, saw the natives in all the colonies as less than human and felt they should be exterminated. This is always my fear when I see groups of people painted with a broad brush–like all Muslims being evil or ignorant.

  287. focussed

    Yes, I am.
    I know british did some dastardly acts especially incidents like Jallianwala Bagh Massacre but you are still missing the main point. That is history. British do not teach hatred of India in their schools unless of course it is some islamic school.

    Please take a look at any islamic school curriculum. What is taught to kids will put any humane person to shame and it is not just in muslim countries but even in countries where muslims are in minority. Muslims are taught right from their childhood to hate non-mulims, not to be friends with them and it is forced on muslim kids. In Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, muslim kids in formative years are taught that jews are descendents of pigs and apes, hindus are despicable and mortal enemy.

    We are not saying 1.2 billion muslims are terrorists but even a mere 10% will be enough to wreak a havoc as is already the case. Everyday millions of muslims prey for death to us infidels 3-5 times a day. I know muslims can be even better in person when you know them than most Americans can ever be but all that changes the moment they get together as a community. The same muslim who would have given his life for you would be willing and will take your life. It is the muslims as a group that is danger to this world and that groupism is solely based on Islam.
    Tell me why there were celebrations across muslim world on 9/11 and why only muslim world? Please tell me why muslims celebrated the deaths in italian earthquakes and in Australian fires. It is all because of UMMAH.
    In Pakistan, Ahamdiy's who claim to be muslims are offically banned from calling themselves muslims and if they do, they are either murdered or put in jail. In Iran, jews were not even allowed to venture outside during rain and snow lest they make the muslims impure and there are countless such things. In any islamic country, a non-muslim cannot become the head of the state.

  288. Veda

    @Prottier
    Sir,
    Your questions regarding why Islam found favour with the Arabs of the time is a valid one. Muhammad made judicious use of the sword and the carrots. The carrots were sexual psychology(read Anwar Sheikh) and economic rewards. Also that each creed in Arabia that embraced Islam could continue with some of its erstwhile practices, Pagans had to give up idolatry but could continue fasting and Hajj rituals. Jewish converts could continue under Islam with circumcision, ban on Pork, beards, skull caps, manner of slaughter of animals.Islam was a product of syncretism(pick n mix from Jews, Pagans, Christians). So, the package for the ppl of Muhammad's time was:
    (A)Either dont convert to Islam and get killed/face dhimmitude Or
    (B)Convert to Islam, folloorw some of your old religious practices, economic and sex rewards in this world and paradise in other world

  289. rajiv12

    Mr. Rottier.
    There have been over 13000 attacks the world over in the name of Islam since 9/11 killing and miaming thousands of people yet you continue to be unfazed. You just dont seem to get it. You say Islam was spread in a peaceful manner while facts point to the contrary. MA Khan ,the editor of Islam Watch has written a well documented book on this topic and perhaps you should also read it. Good Sir, can you answer a simple question? The percentage of Hindus in Pakistan at the time of partition in 1947 was 25%. Today it is less than 1%. Where did those Hndus go? Surely they did not flee to India. What about the plight of Christians living in the middle east. Why has their percentage decreased dramatically. Have you ever tried to find out? Were not some of the Middle East countries having a majority Christian population as little as 100 years back. The truth is the minorities living in Muslim lands live under constant fear. The truth is Islam wants to dominate the world ever since in was born in the Arabian desert in the 7th century.

  290. Veda

    "Two incidents are the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre and the Komagata Maru incident. Certainly European colonizers saw themselves as vastly superior and many, including eminent Scientist Karl Pearson, saw the natives in all the colonies as less than human and felt they should be exterminated. This is always my fear when I see groups of people painted with a broad brush–like all Muslims being evil or ignorant."
    All that is past. Today's Britishers dont threaten our day to day lives. My beef with Islam and muslims is not what they did to India 800/1000 yrs ago. My problem is that those things continue till the present day. Even today, muslims are obsessed against idol worship and want to kill hindus. Did u read the e-mail of Indian Mujahideen before the Ahmedabad blasts in 2008?

  291. Kinana

    Mr Rottier

    I will rephrase and reduce my question.

    When someone, like one of your students, asks you, what is Islam, what will you say?

    You speak of Islam but do not define it.

    You have a view of Mr Sina and of many of the commentators here which is inaccurate. You tend to put words in our mouths and ideas in our heads which are not there.

    ‘You all seem to think that Islam is some all powerful evil’

    ‘all Muslims being evil or ignorant.’

    For myself, after some years of study, I see Islam like a fire.

    If you place people in a room that has a fire they may get burned. If you place people in a room with no fire they will not get burned. People can live their whole lives in close proximity to fire and not get burned or burn others but the chances of fire damage and injury is greater the closer one gets to the flame.

    If a person is constantly exposed to a world view that teaches and encourages hatred and domination of others that person is more likely to be influenced to accept that world view than people who are exposed to a different set of beliefs. Children particularly have no choice in the matter of what they are exposed to.

    Islam is like a fire. Those who call themselves Muslims are closer to the flame than those who are not Muslims. The fire of Islam seeks to consume the whole world. Will you help us put out the flames?

  292. prottier

    Kinana Says:
    May 29th, 2009 at 5:40 pm

    Let me address your question and concerns:

    "When someone, like one of your students, asks you, what is Islam, what will you say?"

    This is precisely the question that I start my Islamic Civilizations course with. To me, Islam is a world religion, just like Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, etc… I relay the basic tenants of belief but then, being a history course and not a theology course, I move on to look at how Islam, this religion that Veda has accurately portrayed, this mix of Abrahamic and pagan cults, interacted and changed with its contact with various people, cultures, being in power, out of power, etc… Islam to me is not, as commonly misrepresented, a political system. Early in the Abbasid Caliphate the Islamic world fragmented and was led not by religious leaders but by local, leaders. But, like European Kings in the time of Divine Right Monarchy they legitimated their role in religion, so needed the Caliph's blessing even though the Caliph had no power over the Emirs. So Islam is not an essay thing to define, it is neither a political system or a culture. It rarely draws in all of the umma–in fact one could say it never did, even the Arabs bickered about clan politics during the 'perfect' period of the 4 Caliphs.

    "You have a view of Mr Sina and of many of the commentators here which is inaccurate. You tend to put words in our mouths and ideas in our heads which are not there."

    Here I do not need to put words in your mouth. The basic consensus of the posters is that Islam is evil, Muhammad was a murderous, perverted, pedophile and fraud and since Muslims view him as the perfect example the religion teaches that they also must act this way. Now, the caveat most posters to this board use is that most Muslims don't know 'true' Islam. You all talk about the Qur'an's references of when it is okay to deceive–although here there is a lot of backsliding as these verses tend to be in the Meccan period although you all scream that the Medinan suras supersede the Meccan ones… So while I will willingly admit my statements below are a gross over-simplification of Dr Sina's and others' on this boards view, it is fairly accurate. I can, of course go through and cut and paste the passages here and in the other articles and debates that surely demonstrate this but I think you will agree it is unnecessary. To put my oversimplification in more polite terms–is it fair to say that Mr. Sina believes Muhammad to be a fraud (this is a difficult concept because as someone who is non-religious I don't believe the religious claims of any religious figure including Jesus, Sidharta, etc…But calling Jesus a fraud would surely ruffle the feathers of the Christian right.) Muhammad was out for his own personal aggrandizement and since this included raiding, robbing, sacking towns, raping (this always happens in wars, can't anyone see this and find a way for us to stop the insanity?) etc… that the faith was built on evil. Now the Hadiths and Qur'an, especially the Medina suras, depict a man bent on destroying all non-Muslims. Therefore, since the 2 highest sources of the religion, the Qur'an and the Hadith, and all 4 schools of Islamic jurisprudence would agree that these are the highest sources, then 'true Islam' is an evil creation and those who follow it will need to be or become jihadists to create a world wide dar al-Islam. Therefore, Muslims who do not believe this are not true Muslims. Is this a fair characterization of the argument? If so I say that history does not come close to supporting this argument.

    ‘You all seem to think that Islam is some all powerful evil’

    ‘all Muslims being evil or ignorant.’

    "If a person is constantly exposed to a world view that teaches and encourages hatred and domination of others that person is more likely to be influenced to accept that world view than people who are exposed to a different set of beliefs. Children particularly have no choice in the matter of what they are exposed to."

    Here you would need to demonstrate clearly that all Muslim schools teach this world view. My belief is that this extreme view is taught in a relatively handful of places. Surely the Saudis fund Wahabi madrasas and certainly you will find many that disparage the Jews, but that is not the historical reality. This is more closely associated with the Palestinian-Israeli problem. It is no coincidence that bin Laden, who likely cares less, always brings the Palestinian problem up. It resonates with Muslims who see people stripped of their land, their dignity, etc… They were pushed into refugee camps where they remain to this day. This is a huge problem. Yet it is not an Islamic problem per say. Jews and Muslims lived in this area for hundreds of years and in many instances, the local Muslims were basically dominated by Christians and Jews at times during the Ottoman period. The Ottomans used the skills of its population so Christians and Jews often were better educated and skilled and held bureaucratic positions and were the leading traders. Deobandi mosques in Pakistan are the other major source of hate spewing madrasas and they are filled with young, Pushtun, Afghani refugees. They blame the US for their troubles, but again, it is not Islam, it is about dispossession–in this case the Afghans endured decades of war and strife so when some opportunistic Mufti tells them that they suffer here so they can have a great afterlife these stupid kids thinks its true. I could take the book of any religion, and pick out verses and chapters that would justify nearly anything. Both old and new testiments of the Bible sanctions killing homosexuals (yes, I already know they do this for real in Iran and Saudi Arabia, 2 countries that should have severe global sanctions enforced until the people are able to have a voice in government and make humane laws.) The Old Testament sanctions ethnic cleansing. All religions believe they and they alone know the way to immortality and the rest will either have to try again or go to hell. So to me the problem isn't Islam, I can produce full curriculum that were taught in mekteps and madrasas in 19th century Central Asia that did not include hatred of anyone in them–except perhaps their former ulema which was portrayed as greedy and self-serving.

    My biggest problem coming to this site and reading it is that it is so similar to the Nazi newspaper and how they were uncovering the 'real' Jews. Even articles written by ex-Jews to corroborate the thinking of the Nazis. The parallel is eerie.

  293. Marie

    prottier wrote:

    Your prove it points are really irritating.

    I'm irritating you? Good.

    As I stated earlier, I think the idea that Aisha was 6 when she married Muhammad and 9 when they had sex is much more a product of trying to glorify the virtues of purity and virginity. The Hadith collectors in no way were trying to slander their prophet–as I stated earlier it was a sign of respect.

    Dude I still disagree with you. If the wanted to raise Muhammed image up the pedestal they would have exaggerated pious acts he did since prophets are suppose to be humble.

  294. prottier

    Halalpork786 Says:
    May 29th, 2009 at 7:36 am

    Now that the numbers of comments on this article has crossed the 100th (+) mark : let me ask every one to go through the comments –

    (1 ) there are very few or no Profanity found.

    ( 2 ) Very few or no Idiotic rantings and name callings this time .( except by the regular few).

    ( 3) No hijacking of the main article.

    And all the credits goes to Ali Sina for writing the following few lines only.

    “”I do not mind people worshipping a phallus, as long as they don’t try to shove it in me. My problem with Islam is not that it is false. My problem is that Muslims want to shove their Allah in me by force. But I can’t take this much bull, and no amount of lubricant and sugarcoating help. “”

    Just a little change of voice and pattern : he could put every reader in line in this forum. Am I correct???

    I sure don't know what you are talking about. This is the one line that made me think you weren't for real–didn't want to have a real discussion. It wasn't Sina that provided the steady, non-provoking dialogue, after checking back today it is clear that he is a liar. He told me he didn't mean to offend me and he removed the analogy of the phallus. But no, as you too seem to be, he is proud of his witty prose. I suppose if I was again 12 it would be amusing but since I am middle aged I found it infantile. Then again, if I was as narrow minded I would surely need to find humor in something, otherwise I would be in constant fear of the world wide conspiracy…..

    Add to the above– this article was “off for all comments” ( for some time )

  295. londonspirit

    you guys keep mentioning aisha and muhammed. You take Ali sinas word for everything. Why dont you. just go and do some research before you speak jiberish.
    God chose a 12 year old to concieve jesus out of all the woman in the world. Do you hear muslims saying the god in chrisitanity is a rapist and a pedophile. Muhammed marrying ayisha must have some logic behind it. And that logic can be seen today cause at a time when woman were degraded ayisha was one of the most knowedgable woman at that time. Muhammed must have saw somethig in aysha just like god saw something in mary.

    And the definition of pedophile is someone who lusts after little children.If muhammed was a pedophile why didnt he follow young gals. As a matter of fact he asked woman to cover there bodies from head to toe.

    Can you see the pattern here. Sina is saying something but it makes no sense. He is a decieving lier. I asked him to send me details about islam being a religion of hate. Its been 3 weeks and still nothing.

  296. Marie

    peacebewithyou wrote:

    Just another ranting from an empty vessel. In India there is a saying – “empty vessel make loud noise”.

    A very wise proverb.

  297. prottier

    Marie,

    Hey dudess, thanks–yes I am so sure that since I worry about berating a whole group of people that I would side with Nazis who promoted hatred of the Jews and used 'former Jews' and the Talmud to demonstrate that all Jews took part in ritual killings and sexual abuse of children. I don't know why I would think that perhaps I would have been a critic of the Nazis. Especially since I criticize the opinions on this site where ex-Muslims come and give out the 'secrets' of Islam's 'true' intent by citing the Hadith literature, using it to explain the Qur'an and Islam much like the ex-Jews used the Talmud to explain the 'true' Judaism. Wow–I really am not sure I could have ever made such a comparison??

    Good luck with your logic….

  298. prottier

    “By the way, please demonstrate how Dr. Sina ‘kicked my sorry ass”?”

    "I will wait for you to read his book and then for your words of wisdom about the book"

    Yes I have, but in my opinion not only is it impossible to psycho-analyze someone who lived 1500 years ago it also does little good. You yourself state that Islam adapts–as you put it, Muslims are historical 'poop-savers'. I hate to break it to you but every religion has had to redefine itself. Christianity had to live in a position of weakness for over 300 years–its text are full of self-sacrifice and pity. Turn the other cheek; forgive your transgressors, etc… Once Rome adopted the religion new interpretations were issued by luminaries such as St. Augustine and others. Bush and his neo-con born again christians certainly didn't want to turn the other cheek and since these good christians had the means they let loose all over the place.

  299. prottier

    Marie says,

    "They are great boys because of the people who took them in and raised them as their own."

    Thank you!

  300. Marie

    prottier wrote:

    Thank you!

    you're welcome.

  301. Marie

    prottier wrote:

    Marie,

    Hey dudess, thanks–yes I am so sure that since I worry about berating a whole group of people that I would side with Nazis who promoted hatred of the Jews and used ‘former Jews’ and the Talmud to demonstrate that all Jews took part in ritual killings and sexual abuse of children. I don’t know why I would think that perhaps I would have been a critic of the Nazis. Especially since I criticize the opinions on this site where ex-Muslims come and give out the ’secrets’ of Islam’s ‘true’ intent by citing the Hadith literature, using it to explain the Qur’an and Islam much like the ex-Jews used the Talmud to explain the ‘true’ Judaism. Wow–I really am not sure I could have ever made such a comparison??

    Good luck with your logic….

    Good luck with my logic? LOL. Dude the accusations that are made here on this website are supported by fanatical Muslim clerics who qoute the Quran to justisfy brutality.

  302. prottier

    Marie,

    "Dude the accusations that are made here on this website are supported by fanatical Muslim clerics who qoute the Quran to justisfy brutality."

    You see we do agree!! Fanatical Muslim clerics and even non-clerics (bin Laden, Zawahiri, etc…) My point has always been that Islam is not the problem–the crazies who use it in this fashion. No one has commented on my statement that more states need to let Islamic parties run for elections–they will definitely not make anything better if they win and hold true to their platform and will subsequently be thrown out–example, again Tajikistan. Or you can drive them underground where they can attract the dim-witted and uneducated and sometimes the bored social activist as in the case of the London 7/7 bombers but for the most part true democracies would help. In the light radicalism will die, especially if better alternatives are presented.

    I know–idealistic and naive. Go ahead and hit me with it.
    BTW–the logic sarcasm was because I have a hard time seeing where I would come off as the Nazi sympathizer–don't you know us leftists would never defend fascism, were to busy being useful idiots for communists and now I guess Muslims:-)

  303. antihuman

    Hi Prottier,

    As advised by Ali Sina, please do take a short leave and read Ali Sina's book "Understanding Mohammed".

    Don't get entangled in the debates here. I am sure we have found a good ally in you in this fight against Islam.

    Believe me, not long time ago I too had an apologist mentality like you regarding Islam. Thanks to Ali Sina and FFI, it's changed for good.

    Remember, nobody is against the Muslims as such. Actually our sympathies are towards Muslims. They need to be pulled out of this darkness called Islam. In fact, they need to be shown that Quran is nothing but Evil.

    There is no religion except for the religion of humanity and there is no God except for the Light that is there within all of us. Let us strive to follow this religion of Humanity and let's strive to discover the Light within ourselves.

    Quran and Islam based on this Quran hinders this path to further evolution and that is why Ali Sina is right when he says that this Evil needs to be eradicated. It has already caused a lot of harm and has the potential to unleash more on this planet. Not unless people like you choose to keep your head buried in the sand.

    So take Sina's advice and find time to read his book before indulging in any more mental gymnastics to defend this cult. Please understand that you have come to the right place and at the right time. Now it is upto you to do the right thing.

  304. ibnsahr

    thanks you for replay pete

    you said:
    "Why did Muhammad’s ideas catch on? More than likely there were many ‘prophets’ seeking to change society in Arabia at the time. In the time of Jesus 1000s of cult religions abounded, yet christianity gained credence. In Arabia 100s of cult religions existed, some others were also based on the Abrahamic faiths, yet Islam persevered–how? Why? These are the questions historians ask"

    you give yourself the answer clearly as below,

    "As for your assertion that Islam was spread by the sword at first, I agree but only indirectly."

    in quran it says: slay unbeliver where ever you find them, isn't it corelation with the act of this muslim army? how can it be indirectly?

    and if they seems like didn't do it know, wait until they population catch up see islamic demography in you tube,
    they will put loud speaker on top of their whore house, and will sooth your ear at 5 am and 6 pm every day,
    may be thats ok with you, ask your brothers if they like it…….?, you think thats all, noo..

    once your blue collar town filled by 70% percent of them, they will start subjecting you by eating on the street during their holy ramadhan (except kill infidel, thats ok),
    and you ask your descent muslim friend, he would say: "im sorry…, this is how muslim are" and what you gonna say..? and you say this ordinary muslim is innocent or not ignorant…..?
    and as for the rest……………, you read the quran and hadith (thats what they gonna put them in this world)

    im sure you wouldn't witness this, but you giving contribution to this, you living (born and grew up) in western country are too naive

    and you said
    "And by the way, Christianity was also spread by the sword once it had power"
    i say, yes its been hijacked by some crazy priest who greed on power and wealth, but thats not what christian is all about in the beginning, and may be this hijack things happened during mohamed time, and he did the same

    i think you should change the subject of your field to "history of bogus religion that spread by violence and lie"

    you said
    "according to rules one must in order to win, one must proved to him that muhammad was sent by god'
    "without real evidence – how can Dr.Sina support his claims?"

    i think you proved him right, by not belived in him too,
    then what make you said his not prophet from god yourself

    once mohamed false prophet, the rest just lie

    you (as a najis) can not give your thought of quran or hadith in some muslim country, how you want to reform this doctrin

  305. Demsci

    Oh, Dr Rottier,

    When you say: "It is not Islam, it is the interpretation" you negate, somehow, our criticisms on it. OK. But do you realize that that gives us an open door, to react to all praises, given by Muslims to Islam, all the supposed good that came from Islam, and Islam only, with saying that they also are null and void? That they also are only a question of Interpretation? Hence, we could well say: What on Earth is the use of this religion anyway? And we already don't believe in its truth (which you don't either).

    And the way I see it: The Holy Scriptures of Islam made a deep impact on human History, one way or the other, and it is therefore appropriate to study them extensively. They are not the possession of Muslims only but of all mankind. All mankind, in our opinion, has the right, after studying them, to think and say about them whatever they like. In our vision, it is simply wrong for Muslims to prohibit or obstruct this in any way.

  306. subanallah

    Response to Potter aka Prottier:

    "Yes I have, but in my opinion not only is it impossible to psycho-analyze someone who lived 1500 years ago it also does little good."
    May be you do know the power of history. At this moment, USA is under economic turmoil. Do you know where do economist take a look at — they look into history. US think tank look into history and try to understand the current trend. Muslims all over the world are behaving strangely for thousands of yrs. For yrs, nonmuslims govt had/is having a liberal policy towards muslims tantrum. Did this stop muslims from their ultimate dreams of world domination? It is time to take another approach. So Ali Sina went all to the start to search for clues of strange bestiality behavior infecting muslims. BINGOOOOOOOO!!! It is the founder of islam – Muhammad (Piss be upon him).
    Someone wrote “No nation can move forward, unless it faces squarely its past”. We have to face it and understand it to solve this 1500 yr mystery. What kind of historian are you? I did google your name but not finding any suitable material about you.

    " You yourself state that Islam adapts–as you put it, "
    Yes – only to fulfill Islamic dream. Sufi was adopted by hindus from Pakistan. Later on sufi became extremist ie back to basic islam. Islam adapts only for temporary purposes.

    "Muslims are historical ‘poop-savers’."
    I do know what you mean by this.

    "I hate to break it to you but every religion has had to redefine itself.——–the other cheek and since these good christians had the means they let loose all over the place"

    You do not have to break it to me. I already knew. All other religions already far ahead than islam. Why it is taking so long time for islam? Or is it possible it is impossible for islam to redefine itself? How long my fellow nonmuslims have to wait for your islam to be redefine itself? How much life has to be shed for reform? Other religions can be criticized openly but islam cannot. Other religions are becoming part of mankind but islam have alternate motives. Ali Sina has already stated this in messages above. What are you reading?

  307. Demsci

    Pete Rottier said:
    "No one has commented on my statement that more states need to let Islamic parties run for elections–they will definitely not make anything better if they win and hold true to their platform and will subsequently be thrown out–example, again Tajikistan. Or you can drive them underground where they can attract the dim-witted and uneducated and sometimes the bored social activist as in the case of the London 7/7 bombers but for the most part true democracies would help. In the light radicalism will die, especially if better alternatives are presented."

    This is where I admire you and agree with you 100 %.

  308. prottier

    I believe this discussion has largely run its course. Just a few closing points:

    1. I never attempted to defend the indefensible–namely terrorism.
    2. When I say look at the historical record I mean to say that Islam while in some periods of history the leaders of Islamic states used Islam to advocate expansion–the leaders of these states realized that using religion as a means to legitimate conquest, they soon learned that this power could be turned on them and soon a new vision of Islam and the state emerged that as long as Muslims are allowed to practice their faith it is okay to live peacefully within. The most extreme example of this is clearly documented in Robert Crew's "For Prophet and Tsar" where Crews details how the Russian Empire itself has to involve itself in Islamic religious decisions. But this understanding is incorporated in all 4 schools of law, having been established by the 10th century.
    3. Someone asked if I saw the Qur'an as a primary source–no. It could be with some historical projects but I am a historian of modern Central Asia. I use the Qur'an and Hadith only as far as the Muslim's of this region, both reformers and 'fundamentalists' use these sources of the faith. The number one concern for reformers was to 'correct' the misinterpretation of the Qur'an and Hadith. They argued vehemently that veiling women, ignoring science, having a narrow, useless educational system were all really against the 'true' Islam. Their goal was modernization of their society. This is but one example of Islamic reform. Islam and Muslims have always needed to adapt, just as other religions have. The fact that groups still use Islam to justify violence and immoral behavior is not a stain on Islam itself, but on those who commit these deeds.

    Thank you all for the informative discussion. Most treated me with respect and engaged in an honest debate. Even if we disagree, discourse and the exchange of ideas is important. So to those who suggest I find something wrong with this site or forum, I do not–if I did I would not have engaged in the conversation I did. My one warning was to be careful of painting all Muslims with the same brush.

  309. Jeraldo

    JAH says:

    "Ali Sina’s DUMB IDIOT!
    Ali Sina’s DUMB IDIOT!
    Ali Sina’s DUMB IDIOT!"

    That's a typical Muslim ad hominem response. Here we see that the Muslim in question gets so frustrated that he cannot find fault with the argument about abrogated verses in the Qur'an, so he attacks those who raise the arguments instead.

    JAH, here is a fact for you. The only person who is a DUMB IDIOT is the type who believes the trash written in that nonsense book known as Qur'an. Is that you?

  310. habib

    Ali sina also agreeing with this fact.."There is no proof that any religion is true".

    So how he can say Christianity is better than Islam with his own maded hadith evidents..??.So he himself saying the available hadiths are not true…So how he can compare muslims with this hadith evidents..???

  311. Raisin Head

    #229 All nations are not the same and many are commies. Cuba is different but still commies. russia is commie and so is China. One commie nation is still better to live in than the other. Look at china with all of the capitalism and cuba is empty. They just go a microwave oven!

  312. Raisin Head

    #230 In America we give them away! The poor in America have a place to live, a car, a phone, a radio, tv, bank account, visas, food, medicine,cars in fact a good life. Even the homeless who want it live better than many in other countries. Homeless have shelters and the churches provide shelter and food IF THEY WANT IT AND A PLACE TO BATHE. GOD BLESS AMERICA.

  313. londonspirit

    Ali Sina is a deceitful lier. I have been in contact the the one and only Ali sina in the last few days and he has emailed me his latest book. Understanding Muhammed.

    He said to me the following

    the book is attached. But pelease read it all before answering. By the time you finish chapter three you;ll start doubting Islam and when you finsih reading the book you'll no longer call yourself a Muslim.

    So that is exactly what i did. I read upto chapter 3 at this present time. but after reading chapter one, introduction and synopsis i was confused and i couldnt understand why a educated man would lie so much. so i forwarded him a very long email and this is the reply i got from him

    BTW I don't think you even read chapter 1.

    When you denied Muhammad being an assassin and then described what an assassin means I realized you did not read the part on assassinations.

    You don't have to read the book if it hurts you. But don't write to me please if you don't want to read it. I can easily see when people say they read something and then they disply their ignorance of what the book says.

    Please do not write back until you finish the book. Don't skim throgh it with anger in your heart. Just read the damn thing. It may open your eyes and deliver you from all the lies you have been tols all your life.

    I know the book makes you angry. That is to be expected, but I do not have patience for people who want to remain blind either. So if you write another email and I sense you have not read the book I will delete your email and send your emal address to my spam box. I am here to help those who want to learn the truth and not those who don't give a damn about it and think they already know it.

    If you finish the book you'll leave Isalm. If you don't dare to read the book don't waste my time.

    Take care.

    Why was he getting angry at my comments. I said to him that i pointed out 81 flaws in just the synopsis introduction and chapter 1. Without answering to my points that i wrote in the email, he completely avoided answering them back but got angry with me and said he will send my email to the spam box.

    So i gave him the benfit of doubt and started reading upto chapter 3 and now i have pointed over 150 flaws in just the first 3 chapters. The book is full of lies. I want to email him now and point out all the 150 but will that get him more angry. lol. What a joke. I only put three points across to him and he didnt answer any of the three and accussed me of skimming the book. I fi was to just skim through the book i wouldnt have picked out over a total of 150 flaws and over 15 contradictions in his book.

    Very amusing. I will continue to read this book of his

  314. londonspirit

    DEMSCI you wrote that it says on top right hand

    This is what it says on the top right on this website:
    “We aim to promote human rights and democracy among Muslims.
    We oppose Islam, not Muslims. We are against hate, not faith.”

    If you oppose islam of course you will oppose muslims cause muslim follow the religion islam and if islam was to go the word muslim goes as well. Its like me saying we oppose judasim or hinduism or christianity but we dont oppose chrisitans, jews or hindus. Does it make any logical snese.

  315. Demsci

    Hi Londonspirit,

    Many Muslims and even Westerners think like you. But others think differently about that.

    There are ever more ex-muslims and they want to be in another faith or life-conviction, like Atheist-Agnostic-Freethinker or Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian and what have you.

    I am sure that as you want respect for Muslims you agree with us that the followers of all faiths deserve equal respect and rights and opportunities, everywhere.

    What is respect? To us it is not lack of criticism, not even lack of insults, lies. It is a balance between criticism, even insults-lies on the one hand and praise and support on the other. If we want to show respect to the followers of other faiths-life-convictions we take care of a proper balance of criticism-insult-lie and praise-support. Then we coexist peacefully and cooperate for mutual benefit. It is happening all the time in democratic countries. Don't think that Islam is the only faith or life-conviction that is being criticized-insulted-lied about. And don't think Muslims do not engage in this either.

    Also, people are much more besides followers of faiths-life-convictions, they are what they are in relation to their families, they are what their professions, interests, possessions make them do and be etc. And we can judge them in regard to that too, or in regard to their overall behavior, character, or not at all.

    Muslims are welcome to criticize and insult, even lie about, all other faiths. In Democracy criticism, with insults, lies and all, is even welcomed, because through self-reflection, self-criticism and self-improvement mankind progresses. Even the refutation of lies takes investigation and much thinking. Also, especially atheists-agnosts-freethinkers are so flexible, they do not think there IS much to insult at all in their life-conviction. But Muslims seem so inflexible, rigid in their faith. And I think that Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists have allowed and endured incredibly much criticism about their faiths, in democracies. They knew and accepted it was part of free speech. The firm line for them always was: Do not incite violence or respond with violence.

    Islamic teachings had such an incredible influence on human history. It is only right if all humans are allowed to study them and to say anything they want about them, even if they are insulting or lying, or perceived as such by Muslims.

    And all of this is because criticism is so beneficial for mankind and to make distinctions between "good" criticism and insults or lies is so subjective and prone to misuse. So when you try to prohibit or obstruct insults and lies, you often throw away "the child together with bath-water" as the saying goes.

  316. Demsci

    Hi, LondonSpirit,

    Thanks for reacting so sincerely. We can stimulate each other to really state what we think this way. So, you thought a lot about the meaning of life, OK.

    About dictatorship and democracy. I am so glad that you and many Muslims don't reject democracy out of hand. Because I see the democratic rules as our protection, especially the rules about free speech. There is also the rule of freedom of religion.

    Now, the excuse of people who do not want to change one iota of their thinking, behavior or religion, who do not wish to be held accountable for anything, is always that they are being insulted or vilified. That lies are being told about their religion, hatred is sown. But in reality people who say this are just lazily and irresponsibly denying everything. If they get their way we end up in censorship, possibly dictatorship. And mankinds progress so much depends upon being able to criticize all, without exemptions. And people letting themselves to be held accountable.

    In at almost all the countries with Islamic majorities there are dictatorships, a few of whom actually claim to be Islamic, what is it with you to even deny that dictatorship and Islam go hand in hand, and democracy and Islam seem incompatible, the very thing which is said by many Islamic clerical leaders?!

    And you can point to the security of a few Islamic states, and you may be right, but everybody can see the Democratic countries perform in so many ways so much better than the Islamic Dictatorial countries do. We see an endless stream of inventions from the Democratic world and none from Islamic countries. We see a big stream of migration out from the Islamic world to the Democratic countries. No Democratic countries ever fought one another, America only fought dictatorial states and they fought each other.

    Ali Sina is 100 % for freedom of religion. Now look at the Islamic Countries of Iran and Yemen and many others. There are anti-apostasy-laws there and capital punishment for it, so no freedom of religion. It is preposterous you do not protest this dictatorial behavior of Muslims in Islamic countries first (you should point out to them the errors of their Islamic ways). But instead you very egoistic, ethnocentrically, or religiocentrically, even discriminatingly ONLY defend Islam/ Muslims, not other faiths or their followers, against real or perceived injustice. You should get your priorities straight, more for all humans, not just Muslims.

    Your strategy, tactics are all about denying what Ali Sina and others point to as bad behavior of Muslims, deriving from Islamic Holy Scriptures. You deny every single charge. Even when the evidence is so strong, like with the Yemeni man I told you about, all these terrorist attacks. Now you deny that thoroughly Islamic countries as Iran and Yemen which have anti-apostasy-laws, which are heavily in favor of Islam, do it because they are Islamic. You keep comparing the bad deeds of Muslims with the bad deeds of the followers of other faiths.

    So I decided to use the same strategy, tactics, but then in reverse. So when your side mentions anything good Islam has ever brought, or brings now, we can refute that too, EVERYTHING. You can like Islam and practice it in your private life, if it makes you happy and have many friends who do, but:
    We have refuted many times that it is even possible that Islam came from God, because of the many faults in the Quran, that there is any Science in Quran.

    Muslims giving 2,5 % Zakat? Well, followers of other faiths give a lot more to others, it is in the tax-system of the Western Democracies. And if I were like you, I would now say: Oh, but if Muslims give Zakat, it is not proven that that is from Islam, show me the verses that say that. That is how absurd you reason with us in reverse.

    About this brotherhood, it is nothing other humans don't do without Islam, Islam is completely irrelevant for that. Not drinking alcohol, oh, many others don't do that either, many Muslims use drugs. It is doubtful if the Muslims do not drink because of Islam, show me the verses! It must be some other reason, because I already am convinced, there can come no good from Islam, as much as you think no bad can come from it.

    You see, I am playing your game, which is to deny Islam has any bad influence ad infinitum, only now I deny it has good influence, ad infinitum.

  317. mohammad

    london pedo supporter said.
    ""you guys keep mentioning aisha and muhammed. Muhammed marrying ayisha must have some logic behind it… Muhammed must have saw something in aysha just like god saw something in mary."
    "And the definition of pedophile is someone who lusts after little children.If muhammed was a pedophile why didnt he follow young gals. As a matter of fact he asked woman to cover there bodies from head to toe""

    you yourself are gibbering, again you come out with the same strategy all along. by conjecturing your own version of the story. it was you who said that Muhammed must have saw something. what on earth was that some'THING' which could not be spelled clearly in the quran or any hadiths. no wonder quran scriptures was interpreted differently between islamic scholars, let alone a person like you. no wonder there were many jihadists who formed their own opinion of killing non-believers.

    muslim said the quran is a perfect book, descended direct from allah. and yet it mislead so many with its smiting verses. but oohh aahhh muhammed the pedo forgot to put it in a correct context that his followers can only do that while in belligerent situation. and lo and behold thousands are dead because of the confusion and incomplete holy quran. and yet you people call it the most perfect book, with way of life and ridiculous sciences in it. perfect my rump!

    and you said Muhammed was not paedophile because he did not follow and lust after young children. im asking you what's with his erect pecker penetrating young ayisha? wasn't is sensual lust? tell me about it.

  318. mohammad

    and yea please tell me the reason why islam teaches the women to cover from head to toe. was it prevent the men from seeing and lusting at the women? why? i did ask my muslim friends and an imam on why women must cover from head to toe. he answered it is to prevent the boys and men from lusting the girls or women. to reduce number of rapes, etc.

    now tell me if this teaching came from the asinine prophet himself. im forming a conjecture here! that the prophet himself must have been sensually challenged strolling with erect members all the time in arab. it is just a conjecture but by thinking properly you can infer your own conclusions.

  319. chestnuts

    Londonspirit says

    " And by the way extensive research has been done by people who study hadiths in regards to the age of ayesha, and let me tell you a new conclusion has been brought up that in no way could ayesha be at the age of 9 when she married muhammed. look into it. I am reading through it now understanding now"

    It sounds to me that you have already come to the conclusion that she was not 9 because it is, and should be, a complete and total embarrassment. I personally have no reason to doubt the Islamic sources on her age being 6 (consummated at 9). But go right ahead and look for new sources to change this and any other hadith that might not suit you and the cause. Countless scholars could have done this over the last 1400 years, but why only now, try to do this? You want to white wash the history of Islam to keep only the benign hadith that makes Mohammad look like an all round good guy??? Too late. Not interested, we aint buying it.

    This is what we do with people who turn their back, become enemies or renegades (apostates…) of Islam. And before you say that this is cherry picking/out of context/only done by misunderstanders blah blah blah. Open your eyes and look around the globe as to what happens on a daily basis:

    004.089
    YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
    PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
    SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

    As for big bang in the Quaran (evolution out?) What a joke. How about something from the science field even remotely of use. Antibiotics, irrigation techniques, pasteurization of milk, anything. All we get is what one would expect from a 7th century book that purports to know it all. Just noise. To be sure, a lot of it just meaningless drivel, but lot of it, just plan dangerous.

    The only big bang we should hear from the Quran is the noise it makes when it hits the bottom of the garbage can.

  320. londonspirit

    MARIE to you. Whether they use chrisitanity or not they are christians. There is major fighting in ireland between catholics and prodestants. They kill because of the different sects, Now do who do we blame.

    We blame the people or Churches that fill these people with hatred.

    Wait so its ok to blame churches when an individual priest who give these ideas to people and not christianity. But when stupid imams gives ideas to their people about killing you blame not the imam but you blame relgion. See how your stereotypical thoughts come to existance.

    Your first point about osama bin laden creating videos of himself owning upto 9/11. Firstly let me tell you that there has also been numerous videos whereby he claimed that he had nothing to do with it.
    secondly did you know the bin laden group was one of the biggest financial dealers with the bush co-operation. And did you know that when every single aircraft in america was grounded in 9/11 the only jet that was permissable to leave was the bin laden business jet. What coincedence. Dont just read of the media. Do your research

    You say the USA goverment would be inhuman to commit such atrocities. It has been done by you rown goverment b4. Your own goverment is know as the most secretive govermenet. They dont tel you anything other than what they can give yu. If you ask them a question they say its classified.

    Your own goverment allowed free drug trade when economy was down. Isnt that inhumane. Your own goverment didnt even care about the damage that was done to orlando due to the hurricane. Now i see pictures of it and its a total dump. Isnt that inhumane. Your goverment want the world to run exactly how they want it to run they want birth control therefore they spread out aids. And it has been a proven fact by the indian scientist that aids is a man made disease. But yet you cant open your eyes to these fact. If they can commit such atrocities why cant they kill their own people to get whatthey want.

    Let me give an example. When the two towers went down. did you know that the CIA building parallel to it also went down. Why did that building go down in a manner like as if it was denonated. No planes hit that building. WHy i ask.

    You want me to prove big bang

    the Qur'an says that "the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder" (21:30). Following this big explosion, Allah "turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth: 'Come together, willingly or unwillingly.' They said: 'We come (together) in willing obedience'" (41:11). Thus the elements and what was to become the planets and stars began to cool, come together, and form into shape, following the natural laws that Allah established in the universe.

    The Qur'an further states that Allah created the sun, the moon, and the planets, each with their own individual courses or orbits. "It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course" (21:33).

    Expansion of Universe

    The Qur'an also does not rule out the idea that the universe is continuing to expand. "The heavens, We have built them with power. And verily, We are expanding it" (51:47). There has been some historical debate among Muslim scholars about the precise meaning of this verse, since knowledge of the universe's expansion was only recently discovered.

    Look how easily this term was explained.

  321. londonspirit

    IBNSAHR you imagined a a chick while you pray so you tried to imagine a divine figure. what nonsense is that. my god. if every time you pray u imagine a chick what does that tell you about the way your brain operates. In any religion when you go to pray you pray with a clear consious whther it be christianity judasim, hinduism, buddism or so on. You dont go to think about chicks. I think your in the wrong place, you need to actually go an visit a stripper club there you wont think but you will see. What a joke.

    MOHAMMED i didnt start the debate about trinity. I was responding to an earlier message. keep track of things.

    post 259 HARDBALL

    all Muslims countries have racist oppressive laws even today in the year 2009 and this man cannot see that. Muslim countries all require its citizens
    to carry ID cards which identify people by religion…the purpose is to control and discriminate against none Muslims.

    Where the hell did he get that info. who has id cards in muslim countries. ID cards are in western countires. I got a chipped passport, I got a chipped driving license and even a chpped travel card. And in UK they are now introducing a chipped ID card. Muslim countries dont have money to do these id cards.

    CHESTNUTS if you even knew about islam you would know hadiths are only narrations. There are no scientific way of distinguishing the right from the wrong. There is no conclusions drwan up either.

    And relating to the verse, if you know that the verse relate to a war than why mention it. Your talking about slay the idolaters wherever you find it. Let me tell you my road consists of over 100 english families. I have been living on the same road as them for the last 23 years. I have yet to kill any of them yet. nor has the muslim families living on the same road killed of of these english people.

  322. A0000Z

    Hi Pete+ you are right–

    "" –Oh heavens yes! A PhD from a stupid place like Wisconsin, just used wikipedia–or was it wiki-islam? I’m so dumb I can’t remember…. Perhaps I am too stupid to even realize that I could have bought a ready made dissertation… even after making it through all those brainwashing courses that really made me spit out vile spew. Yep, us stupid PhDs are pretty useless.–""

    What else can be expected from a Muslim in agnostics guise. Or should I say a Communist cum Muslim in Agnostic's guise. Yes you are a stupid Phd holder and a pretty useless idiot at the same time. Your copy/paste knowledge proves that. Why blame the place like Wisconsin? That great place can't make an intelligent person of an idiot like you.

  323. Marie

    londonspirit wrote:

    Wait so its ok to blame churches when an individual priest who give these ideas to people and not christianity. But when stupid imams gives ideas to their people about killing you blame not the imam but you blame relgion. See how your stereotypical thoughts come to existance.

    londonspirit the Catholics and the Protestants of Ireland do not use the Bible to justify committing atrocities against each other, whereas Jihadist use the Quran to justify violence against nonmuslims. Moreover Catholics and Protestants in Ireland do not commit these atrocities in the name of God. Moreover what goes on in Ireland between the Catholics and the Protestants to do with politics then with religion since the Protestants who mostly live in Northern Ireland want to remain a British Territory and the Catholics who mostly live outside of the North want Ireland to be united.

    Your own goverment allowed free drug trade when economy was down. Isnt that inhumane.

    What are you talking about?

    Your own goverment didnt even care about the damage that was done to orlando due to the hurricane. Now i see pictures of it and its a total dump. Isnt that inhumane.

    Are talking about Katrina? It's not the U.S. government who is to blame it's the local politicians.

    Your goverment want the world to run exactly how they want it to run they want birth control therefore they spread out aids. And it has been a proven fact by the indian scientist that aids is a man made disease.

    I heard of those government aids conspiracy scenarios. I have one thing to say to you about your accusations: Prove it!

    But yet you cant open your eyes to these fact. If they can commit such atrocities why cant they kill their own people to get whatthey want.

    Dude I could make the same accusations against you British for your imperial past.

    Let me give an example. When the two towers went down. did you know that the CIA building parallel to it also went down. Why did that building go down in a manner like as if it was denonated. No planes hit that building. WHy i ask.

    A bunch of buildings were destroyed as the result of the two towers falling down. That's how the CIA building was destroyed. There were also other buildings that were destroyed and they had nothing to do with the government.

    You want me to prove big bang

    the Qur’an says that “the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder” (21:30). Following this big explosion, Allah “turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth: ‘Come together, willingly or unwillingly.’ They said: ‘We come (together) in willing obedience’” (41:11). Thus the elements and what was to become the planets and stars began to cool, come together, and form into shape, following the natural laws that Allah established in the universe.

    The Qur’an further states that Allah created the sun, the moon, and the planets, each with their own individual courses or orbits. “It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course” (21:33).

    Expansion of Universe

    The Qur’an also does not rule out the idea that the universe is continuing to expand. “The heavens, We have built them with power. And verily, We are expanding it” (51:47). There has been some historical debate among Muslim scholars about the precise meaning of this verse, since knowledge of the universe’s expansion was only recently discovered.

    Look how easily this term was explained.

    londonspirit this a copy and past of the timeline of the big bang. Can you please tell me how those verses apply to this:

    Timeline of the Big Bang
    See also: Timeline of the Big Bang
    External Timeline
    A graphical timeline is available here:
    Graphical timeline of the Big Bang

    Extrapolation of the expansion of the universe backwards in time using general relativity yields an infinite density and temperature at a finite time in the past.[25] This singularity signals the breakdown of general relativity. How closely we can extrapolate towards the singularity is debated—certainly not earlier than the Planck epoch. The early hot, dense phase is itself referred to as "the Big Bang",[notes 2] and is considered the "birth" of our universe. Based on measurements of the expansion using Type Ia supernovae, measurements of temperature fluctuations in the cosmic microwave background, and measurements of the correlation function of galaxies, the universe has a calculated age of 13.73 ± 0.12 billion years.[26] The agreement of these three independent measurements strongly supports the ΛCDM model that describes in detail the contents of the universe.

    The earliest phases of the Big Bang are subject to much speculation. In the most common models, the universe was filled homogeneously and isotropically with an incredibly high energy density, huge temperatures and pressures, and was very rapidly expanding and cooling. Approximately 10−37 seconds into the expansion, a phase transition caused a cosmic inflation, during which the universe grew exponentially.[27] After inflation stopped, the universe consisted of a quark-gluon plasma, as well as all other elementary particles.[28] Temperatures were so high that the random motions of particles were at relativistic speeds, and particle-antiparticle pairs of all kinds were being continuously created and destroyed in collisions. At some point an unknown reaction called baryogenesis violated the conservation of baryon number, leading to a very small excess of quarks and leptons over antiquarks and anti-leptons—of the order of 1 part in 30 million. This resulted in the predominance of matter over antimatter in the present universe.[29]

    The universe continued to grow in size and fall in temperature, hence the typical energy of each particle was decreasing. Symmetry breaking phase transitions put the fundamental forces of physics and the parameters of elementary particles into their present form.[30] After about 10−11 seconds, the picture becomes less speculative, since particle energies drop to values that can be attained in particle physics experiments. At about 10−6 seconds, quarks and gluons combined to form baryons such as protons and neutrons. The small excess of quarks over antiquarks led to a small excess of baryons over antibaryons. The temperature was now no longer high enough to create new proton-antiproton pairs (similarly for neutrons-antineutrons), so a mass annihilation immediately followed, leaving just one in 1010 of the original protons and neutrons, and none of their antiparticles. A similar process happened at about 1 second for electrons and positrons. After these annihilations, the remaining protons, neutrons and electrons were no longer moving relativistically and the energy density of the universe was dominated by photons (with a minor contribution from neutrinos).

    A few minutes into the expansion, when the temperature was about a billion (one thousand million; 109; SI prefix giga) Kelvin and the density was about that of air, neutrons combined with protons to form the universe's deuterium and helium nuclei in a process called Big Bang nucleosynthesis.[31] Most protons remained uncombined as hydrogen nuclei. As the universe cooled, the rest mass energy density of matter came to gravitationally dominate that of the photon radiation. After about 379,000 years the electrons and nuclei combined into atoms (mostly hydrogen); hence the radiation decoupled from matter and continued through space largely unimpeded. This relic radiation is known as the cosmic microwave background radiation.[32]
    The Hubble Ultra Deep Field showcases galaxies from an ancient era when the universe was younger, denser, and warmer according to the Big Bang theory.

    Over a long period of time, the slightly denser regions of the nearly uniformly distributed matter gravitationally attracted nearby matter and thus grew even denser, forming gas clouds, stars, galaxies, and the other astronomical structures observable today. The details of this process depend on the amount and type of matter in the universe. The three possible types of matter are known as cold dark matter, hot dark matter and baryonic matter. The best measurements available (from WMAP) show that the dominant form of matter in the universe is cold dark matter. The other two types of matter make up less than 18% of the matter in the universe.[26]

    Independent lines of evidence from Type Ia supernovae and the CMB imply the universe today is dominated by a mysterious form of energy known as dark energy, which apparently permeates all of space. The observations suggest 72% of the total energy density of today's universe is in this form. When the universe was very young, it was likely infused with dark energy, but with less space and everything closer together, gravity had the upper hand, and it was slowly braking the expansion. But eventually, after numerous billion years of expansion, the growing abundance of dark energy caused the expansion of the universe to slowly begin to accelerate. Dark energy in its simplest formulation takes the form of the cosmological constant term in Einstein's field equations of general relativity, but its composition and mechanism are unknown and, more generally, the details of its equation of state and relationship with the Standard Model of particle physics continue to be investigated both observationally and theoretically.[14]

    All of this cosmic evolution after the inflationary epoch can be rigorously described and modeled by the ΛCDM model of cosmology, which uses the independent frameworks of quantum mechanics and Einstein's General Relativity. As noted above, there is no well-supported model describing the action prior to 10−15 seconds or so. Apparently a new unified theory of quantum gravitation is needed to break this barrier. Understanding this earliest of eras in the history of the universe is currently one of the greatest unsolved problems in physics.

    Underlying assumptions

    The Big Bang theory depends on two major assumptions: the universality of physical laws, and the Cosmological Principle. The cosmological principle states that on large scales the universe is homogeneous and isotropic.

    These ideas were initially taken as postulates, but today there are efforts to test each of them. For example, the first assumption has been tested by observations showing that largest possible deviation of the fine structure constant over much of the age of the universe is of order 10−5.[33] Also, General Relativity has passed stringent tests on the scale of the solar system and binary stars while extrapolation to cosmological scales has been validated by the empirical successes of various aspects of the Big Bang theory.[notes 3]

    If the large-scale universe appears isotropic as viewed from Earth, the cosmological principle can be derived from the simpler Copernican Principle, which states that there is no preferred (or special) observer or vantage point. To this end, the cosmological principle has been confirmed to a level of 10−5 via observations of the CMB.[notes 4] The universe has been measured to be homogeneous on the largest scales at the 10% level.[34]

  324. Marie

    londonspirit wrote:

    IBNSAHR you imagined a a chick while you pray so you tried to imagine a divine figure. what nonsense is that. my god. if every time you pray u imagine a chick what does that tell you about the way your brain operates. In any religion when you go to pray you pray with a clear consious whther it be christianity judasim, hinduism, buddism or so on. You dont go to think about chicks. I think your in the wrong place, you need to actually go an visit a stripper club there you wont think but you will see. What a joke.

    londonspirit do you know what a joke is or do you have a dry personality?

    Where the hell did he get that info. who has id cards in muslim countries. ID cards are in western countires. I got a chipped passport, I got a chipped driving license and even a chpped travel card. And in UK they are now introducing a chipped ID card. Muslim countries dont have money to do these id cards.

    Egypt and Malaysia have id cards that state which religion a person belongs to. A person who has an id card that states they are nonmuslim is generally treated like sh*t in these countries.

  325. ibnsahr

    londonspirit
    You replied to anyone about everything but you miss out on my below
    comment?

    "HOLDING QURAN WHILE COMMITING CRIME"

    have you ever seen anyother faith holding their holy book up high, while doing crime?

    you said
    "IBNSAHR you imagined a a chick while you pray so you tried to imagine a divine figure. what nonsense is that. ……. In any religion when you go to pray you pray with a clear consious whther it be christianity judasim, hinduism, buddism or so on"

    i know you guys hypocrite.., so you said you never had random thought while you in masjid?

    In non muslim country they had loud speaker remember? Or may be you don’t know too like the id card thing. You can hear the sermon just preaching hate and nothing but hate, when they tell you do good deed only for your muslim brother.
    And you try to tell me “you pray with a clear conscious of hatred”?

    the only joke muslim understand is misfortune of other belive, they will laugh for that.

    why you muslim so hard to admit the crime in the name of your religion, i will admit the crime, commited by earlier church or dirty priests.

    is it because your crime in the name of religion were priscribed in your holy book, so if you admit it, its indirectly pointing toward your quran is Recipe for disaster?

    LS why they holding quran while they beheaded people?

  326. Demsci

    OK, fair enough, LondonSpirit, we do not believe each other most of the time. But don't forget about FFI's popularity. Let our readers decide what to learn from it all. You are doing the right thing, discussing the issue that vex so many of us. You are to be commended, and in a way a godsend to people like us.

    You may have been right about crime and rape. But that is only part of the picture, that is not enough to evaluate the performance of a whole country, system, government. The UN evaluates on the whole picture and invariably the Western Democratic Nations and Japan come out on top and most Islamic countries are down, in their evaluation-lists.

    I say simply; Look global, look where the democracies and dictatorships are. Look at the countries that have Islamitic majority. They are overwhelmingly dictatorial in nature. That is a big clue.

    In response to you denying all and everything "bad" having anything to do with Islam again, I can engage in my own reasonable game; Islam is not relevant for the future, because it is equally bereft of influence on good behavior. And you can bring anything on to prove that it has truth, beneficial influence and relevancy in the 21st century. And we can disprove it as much or better than you can disprove all those stories that link Islam to bad behavior of its followers, the dictatorships of its countries.

    You condone or even follow Islamic leaders who are playing blatantly false, by outrageously favoring Islam, oppressing free speech, giving one-sided propaganda, prohibiting conversion, proselytizing, treating non-muslims as lesser citizens in their own countries. We can quote you so many examples of this in our articles, but you choose to ignore and disbelieve them.

    Geert Wilders won big in Holland and a reason among others could be that people who say they have nothing against democracy and are for equal rights for all faiths and both genders, fail to protest against dictatorship and Islam-favoritism and women-oppression in almost all the countries they have the majority in! (And there are just too many articles here and everywhere that confirm it). It makes you incredibly incredible!

    You know, compared to our excellent politicians, Wilders is mediocre, narrow-minded, negative. And still he won hugely! I explain it as a reaction to the Islamic threat, to Muslims'refusal to address legitimate concerns. Oh, how much we need Ali Sina, Geert Wilders. It seems hardly any reasonableness or help is forthcoming from Muslims or these abovementioned excellent politicians.

    It is only logical that some Westerners view people like you as very untrustworthy, because Islam in practice shows no promise of better life, but of worse life, especially to women and unbelievers, see UN-statistics.

    And to avoid all criticism, take any kind of accountability; YES, there you say it again; This site promotes hate-speech, it threathens the peace, presumably a peace that Islam never broke (except in self-defence) anywhere, ever.

  327. londonspirit

    MOHAMMED wrote yet you don’t know the constution of your own country. what kind of loser are you?

    Mate Like I said if you read what i wrote I hate politics. I hate verything about politics. I dont care about politics. They are a bunch of retarded liers. Every single one of them. Everything they do is not for the countries benefit but for their benefit. Demsci wrote compared to our excellent politicians. You really think you have excellent politicians. DEMSCI you live in europe have you heard the news in britain of the politiicians scamming public funds and getting away with it by resigning. Millions of pounds worth of tax payers money has gone towards fixing their gardens and so on. They made a rule that they would get paid an annual salary and on top of that they would get paid to turn up to work. Than what is the point of an annual salary. You call these people excellent politicans.

    Geert Wilders is a lier. Have you seen his film fitnah. Do you see all the lies he presented there. Thank god he wasnt allowed in the UK. At least the british people want to live a peaceful life. By barring him I thank god. And yes they should also bar all the islamic guys who spread hate. But what you guys cant understand its that it is only a minority that do that.

    You talk about dictator ship in muslim countries. Why dont we look, how many muslim countries have dictatorship. We cannot count saudia arabia, jordan, and a few more middle eastern countries cause they are kingdoms and have kings and queens. And we cant count UAE because they have sheikhs. We also cant count south asian countries. Cause they have prime ministers who are woman, fancy that islam oppresses woman but in countries like pakistan and bangladesh they have woman prime ministers. hmmm. And we cant even count north african countires because they have presidents like egypt and others. So we are just left with a few countires like Iran that have dictatorship.

    So DEMSCI a majority of muslim countries dont even have dictatorship so can you please tell me which how many muslim countires have dictatorship.

    Moving back to Mohammed. Whether you say muhammed is a pedo or not it dont concern me. But where do you get your info on in regards to him being a pedo. You see you rely on a few hadiths to back up your claims and that haditth has been a big fighting point for the ruthless retarded lier Ali sina, who says he will block me just cause I questioned him. But it is impossible to scientifically judge which one is right and which one is wrong. So how do you know this hadith aint wrong. Because there are also hadiths saying ayesha was 18 when she got married to muhammed. Did you know that mohammed.

    And moving back to malaysia mophammed your the ignorant person. I got my sources from encarta, which is not unreliable. But for arguments sake lets say i am wrong. I asked you a question. In kuala lumpa how many europeans are there permanently residing there. You completely ignored me when i asked that

  328. londonspirit

    DEMSCI i aint here to prove islam is right. Sole purpose here is to stop this hate by proving ali sina wrong in calling mohammed a killer and so on. I have already done that. I belived initially that muslims commited 9/11 from reading the newspapers and watching the news. But for some reason things didnt add up. I asked myself questions like normally in america if a plane goes of track for 30 mins they send fighter jets immediaitley to shoot down the plane. Also the pentagon is fitted with ground to air missles, so wot happened to them when the plane came down. So i investigated and my god everything that I saw was shocking. came accros this video called loose change and opened my eyes to the plan of america. Why dont you watch it and tell me what you think DEMSCI

  329. mohammad

    again this quack is talking. mate a constitution is a building block of a country. it is above politics mate. you're right about politicians but you are totally supid when it comes to constitution. i have nothing more to say about you being a charlatan.

    why don't you count kingdom such as saudi arabia, jordan, etc? are they not people living in those countries? don't they have needs like everyone of us also? i don't know but these past few days, everything you said are incomprehensible my friend.

    about ayisha, please give us a reliable hadiths as proof that ayisha was 18. hmmm i wonder why they chose that age limit? because in modern world that is the acceptable age to have intercourse? yes? no? maybe? how clever of that scholar. our accusation that muhammad was a pedo was from multiple hadiths, it was proven. many hadiths are telling the same thing. we derived evidences from islamic writing itself. so please disprove with an islamic hadiths also. don't just mumble.

    there are europeans living in kuala lumpur, i know you want to ask me why aren't thye dead yet? aren't you? i told you many times these europeans are working in kuala lumpur and the locals muslims treat them well. i agree with that. but it has something to do with economy and to protect the country image to outsiders like you who are gullible to believe that minorities in malaysia are living in peace.

  330. Demsci

    All I can say LondonSpirit is that the world has 200 countries, and they are either democracies, however faulty, or dictatorships. Kingdoms, presidencies, many of them are dictatorships. Let us both understand words in the same way. Even if some countries are anarchistic, like Somalia, then they form some form of tribes or so, which are either democratic or dictatorial.

    You live in a democracy and seem not even to be aware of the vast difference between dictatorship and democracy. And I am doing you a favor, because I differentiate between those 2 systems of government, not between faiths. I do not say Islam must be bad, but that Dictatorship is bad compared to democracy. All I ever want is for most Muslims, including their leaders everywhere, to adhere to real democracy and oppose dictatorship. If they did Ali Sina would probably give up, as interest in his website would decline rapidly. So there you have your strategy. Better than trying to refute him. You do it very well, mind you, but please look at the bigger picture.

    Notice that Ali Sina is only defender, protester against some of your co-religionists, just as you protest against him. And you are often not even in agreement with Muslims'interpretation of Quran-Hadith, Islamically speaking, so partially in agreement with Ali Sina. When he protests in such cases, why don;t you? Why do you keep protesting the protester, instead of the perpetrator?

    Even if you don't, others do see the bigger picture, and now see you are only saying what you say to protect your religion, not because you want to promote truth or justice. They think; Hey, this guy ignores everything we are worried about, all reports of bad behavior of Muslims, especially when in power, all bad influence by the Quran. Think about it.

    You did notice that the politicians were controlled, prosecuted and held accountable, didn't you? Suppose you are right about politicians being all scumbags, then we see that in most Islamic countries they are almost never controlled, prosecuted, held accountable. Of course not, it would be suicidal. But we fearlessly root out the rotten apples, keeping the others honest.

  331. iqbalrazi

    Dr. Pete Rottier, very well done. Ali Sina and Co. had almost rotten many minds. But you alone have kneel down all with logic. Thanks for civilizing his band.

  332. iqbalrazi

    “”I do not mind people worshipping a phallus, as long as they don’t try to shove it in me. My problem with Islam is not that it is false. My problem is that Muslims want to shove their Allah in me by force. But I can’t take this much bull, and no amount of lubricant and sugarcoating help. “” – Ali Sina.

    Looks like Ali Sina criticises Islam for personal reason. And so why some of his stuff is abusive. I guess after this if has not ill will to islam then he will go for civilised logic or reinvent himself.

  333. aspacia

    JAH,

    Why do you continually copy and paste the same claims on different threads? What a BORE.

    Northern Bear-Great insightful arguments.

    With appreciation,

    aspacia
    A Deist

  334. londonspirit

    Mohammed. Who do you think makes these consititution. It aint random people of the streets ok. WHO DOES IT?. when i say i hate politics, let me tell you i dont care in regards to anything that revolves around it. Its not in my interest. And guess what consitituitions fall into that category. so i dont care. if i have no interest in it whther its higher than politics or not do you think i really care what is written in it. You might not care in regards to how to make a plane. So just cause you have no interest am i to call you stupid. So dont you call me stupid cause i have no interest in these things.

    As a matter of fact your the stupid one. You base your understanding that muslims kill non-muslims in islamic nations. You also agreed that there are many europeans in malaysia. Now you tell me what has economy got to do with someones intention to kill non-muslims. If there is a muslim guy who hates non-muslims he would kill the non-muslim and wouldnt care about the economy of his country or protecting countires image. Dont give pitiful excuses ok. You base your understanding on Ali sinas word but you dont research into things yourself. Have you read Ali sinas book understanding muhammed. I questioned that book and he got angry with me and threatened me by saying if you write one more email in regards to the book he would put my email address to hte spam box. And Mohammed scohlars didnt use the age to agree with modern society in regards to Ayesha these are their findings. And instead of me just presenting the findings to you why dont you just do some research of your own instead on relying on other people word.

    Demsci you keep mentioning dictatorship and democracy. But you fail to understand that out of the islamic nations there only a couple that have dictators. And Mohammed why I never mentioned saudia arabia and so on is cause they have kings and queens who have more of the say than anyone else.

    I done a bit of research for myself in regards to democracy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Democracyindex2…. from this site it tells you which countires are the most and least democratic.

    The least democratic country is north korea. Followed by 2 muslim nations and than non-muslim nations. and than followed by some eastern european countries andssome muslim nations. This data was taken in 2007 so things may have changed now. Although I find it difficult to belive that it would have changed alot. so you see demsci what i am trying to get at.

    Demsci there are only 10 dictatorship countries left in the world and out of those 10 4 are non-muslim countires. so only 6 muslim nations are ruled under dictator ship. quite a low number dont you think considering the number of muslim nations. So dont you see islam doesnt consist of having a dictator. Islam has nothing to do with dictatorship. So dont base your arguments on democracy and dictatorship cause most muslims are not ruled by a dictator so that dont have to decline it. Most muslim countries are democratic so they have already accepted it.

    Ali sina will never give up this website, because he hates islam. he dont care about democracy. Its his hate for islam that has brought about this website. Ali sina is no protester. he wants people to view his ways. He is the real narcissit, spreading lies about islam cause something probably happened to him when he was young and than someone is against him and he knows he cant win it he barrs them. What a challenger huh.

    DEMSCI i aint saying nothing to protect my religion. Everything i say is backed with facts. I dont guess. I answer clearly and concisely. it is you people that cant see the bigger picture. i am only here to promote truth. I asked you to watch a video clip called loose change. did you watch it? I love the truth.

    You say the politicians that i taslked about were held accountable. If you think being held accountable means that they get to keep all the tax payers money and have a very nice pension than yes they were held accountable. Nothing happened to these politicians they got away with everything. Most of them resigned to get away with it. I dont call taht being held to accountable All of them are getting a very nice pension even after they stole tax payers money. i dont call tat being held accountable. accountable is if they were to be thrown into jail. If all ther assets were taken and if they got blacklisted. That is being held to account.

  335. Raisin Head

    Londonspirit I see your classes in infidelville are over. If you lived in Islamville, you would be top Muslims as a white one. Muhammad was white and so are arabs. But you are akin to turks whom Muhammad said were the best. Where does that leave African Mulims–hellfire as allah aka muhammad said. Africans Muslims are stupid as Tabari 1:280 says and indeed they are to join a racist cult of islam.

    No where does the bible say Blacks are cursed and ugly nappy headed slaves with pug noses. No where did Jesus say kill Muslims or Jews. Jesus said forgive tem father not kill them like prophet Mo.

    Obama said he was telling the truth. He said most of the architecture of we have was built by Muslims when the people the Muslims conquered had already built them. The Blue Mosque in Turkey was a CHURCH built by the Byzantines. I guess the pyramids in Egypt were built by Muslims looooooooooooooooool.

    Now that you are finish schooling, maybe you can go to an Islamic nation and live there and really see for yourself the real deal. Sudan would be a great place to start. Black Muslims are in deep sorrow as no Arab Muslims are helping them eat. Jews and Christians are feeding Muslims who were taught to hate them. Black Muslims are leaving Islam after reading the hadiths and quran where they are the objects of scorn.

  336. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  337. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  338. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  339. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  340. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  341. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  342. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  343. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  344. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  345. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  346. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  347. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  348. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  349. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  350. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  351. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

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