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Pedophilia: Amaar Khan vs Saadiq Mohammad

[FFI Editors Note: Amaar Khan's ebook on Pedophilia in Islam is in our library. We received an article from Mr. Saadiq Muhammad assuming a rebuttal to Mr. Amaar Khan's claims. FFI asked Mr. Amaar Khan for his responses to Mr. Muhammad's Claims. Below is what Mr. Muhammad claimed and the response to that from Mr. Amaar Khan. The reader will be the judge as to who proved his points.]

Saadiq Mohammad:

I recently read an article by Amaar Khan titled ‘A complete guide to pedophilia in Islam’. In his argument he quotes Surah 33:49 and Surah 65:4 as proof that pedophilia is prescribed and promoted in the Quran. He then uses hadith, tafsirs and fatwas to back up his points. He tells us to pay close attention to the section in 65:4 that states ‘those who have not menstruated yet’ on page 1 of his article. He says, regarding this verse, and I quote ‘because it is going to be most important in this article.’

Amar Khan:

Evidence from Quran that pedophilia is not prohibited but rather promoted.

In cases of divorces, where the husband had sex with the wife, the Quran specifies the Iddah, a waiting period of three months, in verse 65:4:

Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

Waalla-ee ya-isna mina almaheedi min nisa-ikum ini irtabtum faAAiddatuhunna thalathatu ashhurin waalla-ee lam yahidna waolatu al-ahmali ajaluhunna an yadaAAna hamlahunna waman yattaqi Allaha yajAAal lahu min amrihi yusran.

Clearly, the Quran divides woman in two types:

1. Women who have reached menopause, and

2. Women who do not have menses yet.

The stipulated Iddah period is three months. The word used here is “NISA”, the same word is used in many verses regarding the prepubescent girls. E.g.

And [remember the time] when we saved you from Pharaoh’s people, who afflicted you with cruel suffering, slaughtering your sons and sparing [only] your women – which was an awesome trial from your Sustainer;

(Waith najjaynakum min ali firawna yasoomoonakum sooa alAAathabi yuthabbihoona abnaakum wayastahyoona Nisaakum wafee thalikum balaon min rabbikum AAatheemun) [Quran. 2:49]

Then tafsirs of all commentators on verse 65:4 clearly prove the fact that according to Quran the “ Iddah of prepubescent girls is three months.”

Now the main point here is that according to the Quran, any woman who got divorced before her first menstruation will have three months of “iddah”. So clearly it is allowable to marry a girl who have not yet menstruated. There is no lower limit mentioned in the Quran. So, it is allowed to marry any girl who has not yet have her first menses. She even can be less then one year old.

 

Saadiq Mohammad:

 

So let us look at this to see if the Qur’an really allows pedophilia.

 

J. Geoff Malta, MA, EdM, NCC, an Adolescent Therapist says on his website:

( http://www.puberty101.com/p_pubgirls.shtml ) that there are 5 stages of puberty in women. If you visit this site he says that menstruation occurs during stage 3 which is between the ages of 9 to 15 years of age. He says that only SOME girls get their first period during this time, meaning a small number of girls. So if we look to the next stage as being the one in which most girls menstruate (stage 4) the age is 10 to 16.

 

Now let us look to at the age of sexual consent, under the law in some NON MUSLIM COUNTRIES. If you visit: ( http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm ) you will see a list of countries and their legal age limit for consent to sex. For the sake of those who have little time, I will list some examples from this website.

 

Australia the age is 16

Canada the age is 16

Israel the age is 14

UK the age is 16

In some US states, like Indiana and Iowa, the age is as low as 14, but the national average is 16.

Amaar Khan:

First of all I will have to check the data given to me.

According to http://www.puberty101.com/p_pubgirls.shtml

Menarch (the beginning of menstruation) usually happens in “Stage 4″ of puberty, but can happen late in Stage 3 as well. While there are no real “signs” of an impending first period, there are signs that may let you know when it is likely to happen.

 

Five Stages of Puberty – Girls

1

Age Range: Usually 8-11

In Stage 1 there are no outside signs of development, but a girl’s ovaries are enlarging and hormone production is beginning.

2

Age Range: Usually 8-14. Average: 11-12

The first sign is typically the beginning of breast growth, including “breast buds.” A girl may also grow considerable height and weight. The first signs of pubic hair start out fine and straight, rather than curly.

3

Age Range: Usually 9-15. Average: 12-13

Breast growth continues, and pubic hair coarsens and becomes darker, but there still isn’t a lot of it. Your body is still growing, and your vagina is enlarging and may begin to produce a clear or whitish discharge, which is a normal self-cleansing process. Some girls get their first menstrual periods late in this stage.

4

Age Range: Usually 10-16. Average: 13-14

Pubic hair growth takes on the triangular shape of adulthood, but doesn’t quite cover the entire area. Underarm hair is likely to appear in this stage, as is menarche. Ovulation (release of egg cells) begins in some girls, but typically not in a regular monthly routine until Stage 5.

5

Age Range: Usually 12-19. Average: 15

This is the final stage of development, when a girl is physically an adult. Breast and pubic hair growth are complete, and your full height is usually attained by this point. Menstrual periods are well established, and ovulation occurs monthly.

So Menarch can happen usually at 9-16 years of age, and average age here is 12-14 years.

But the actual problem with the Quran is that it does not impose any lower limit, which I have explained above.

Let us make a thorough examination of minimum age of marriage in country wise. According to http://www.muslim-marriage-guide.com/marriage-age.html, which is an Islamic site and wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age :

Male 22, Female 20

China (PRC),

Both 21

Puerto Rico, Philippines, Singapore,

Male 21, Female 18

Algeria, Bangladesh, India,

Male 21, Female 17

Mississippi,

Male 21, Female 16

Hong Kong, SAR of China,

Both 20

Senegal, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand,

Male 20, Female 17

Tunisia

Male 20, Female 15

Thailand

Male 19, Female 17

Nebraska

Both 18

Ethiopia, Morocco, Chile, Peru, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming, Venezuela, Iraq, Kazakhstan, Sri Lanka, Austria, Belgium, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Republic of Ireland, Italy, Lithuania, Netherland, Norway, Romania, Russia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine

Male 18, Female 17

Indiana, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Uzbekistan, Northern Ireland,

Male 18, Female 16

Pakistan, Egypt, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, Canada, Mexico, Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Delaware, Florida, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, Ohio, Indonesia, Poland,Portugal, England and Wales, Jersey, Australia, New Zealand,

Male 18, Female 15

Tanzania, Georgia, Hawai, Missouri,

Male 18, Female 14

Afghanistan,

Male 17, Female 14

Madgascar,

Both  16

Kenya, Maldives, Scotland,

Puberty

Sudan, Yemen

Male 16, Female 16

Jordan

Male 16, Female 14

Paraguay

Male 15, Female 13

Iran

From the above chart, the minimum age limit in Afghanistan is 14 years, and in Iran, it is 13 years. Both are Islamic countries, and they follow the Sunnah. But, still the age of Menarch varies from 10-16.

Saadiq Muhammad:

What can we learn from this? That NORMAL (I stress this word for a reason that I will mention later) age that most women menstruate is between the ages of 10 – 16 and that NON MUSLIM COUNTRIES allow consent to sex at about the time of a woman’s first menstruation. So, If a woman living in any of the examples I listed above begins menstruation at or around the age of 16 and a man has sexual contact with her, he can NOT be labeled a pedophile since the law allows sexual contact with women this young. By now, someone who is unbiased can see how Amaar Khan’s argument gradually implodes.

Amaar Khan

Yes, you are right that any one having sex with a girl of age 16 should not be labeled as pedophile, but the problem is that the Quran allows a male to marry a girl before she gets menses. She can even be of one year old. No lower limit is provided.

So the problem is with the Quran, and definitely not with the laws of different countries. These countries have imposed a lower limit for marriage with an average age limit of 18 years. But the author of the Quran does not care to impose any limit. Perhaps, the author wanted to rationalize his own example of marrying a girl before her Menarch.

Saadiq Mohammad

 

Most people living in Western nations will say ‘But women are menstruating at a much earlier age nowadays’. This fact is true in many 1st world nations, but is this a natural occurrence? The reasons for this early development can be attributed to the high fat content in a woman’s body. Poor eating habits and factors like obesity have been scientifically linked to girls having menstruations at an earlier than normal age. Sandra Steingraber wrote an article about this titled ‘Goodbye Girls’:

http://www.portlandtribune.com/sustainable/story.php?story_id=121078392475499700 .

In this article she states the following

‘If historical statistics are any guide, the average girl in northern Europe in the 1830s entered puberty — defined by menarche, or the onset of menstruation — at approximately 17 years of age. Today, chances are that her American counterpart will have her first period at about 12 and a half’


History is showing us that the further back you go, the higher the age a woman becomes during her first menstruation. This is due in large part to the dietary habits of people who lived thousands of years ago, compared to those living today. Although we have no historical records indicating the average age of menstruation of women living in Arabia, during the 6th and 7th century, we can easily assume, from the article I listed above, that it was at least at age 17, if not a bit higher.


So, at the time of the revelation of 65:4 the age of menstruation in women was probably about 17 years of age (at least). So at the time of the revelation a pre-pubescent woman could have been between the ages of 14 – 16 years old (at least), which is within the age limit of legal sexual contact with a woman in the countries I listed above.

 

Amaar Khan

It is true that the age of Menarch is decreasing, but I have explained above that the Quran does not impose any lower limit on the age of marriage. It can be less than one year old.

If we assume that the lower limit is the initial time of Menarch, verse 65:4 is still getting in a fatal trouble; namely, it allows a girl to be married before her Menarch. If the age for Menarch is decreasing, then this means that you can marry an even younger girl.

For example, if the age of first menses was 17 in 622 AD then it was allowed to marry a girl at 17. If the age of first menses is 12, it is allowed to marry a girl at 12 according to Islam. This means that the Quranic “alleged” lower limit is decreasing with the passage of time.

At the end of this article I will explain when did Ayesha really got her Menarch.

 

Saadiq Muhammad

So let’s look at the implications of this, as it pertains to ISLAM…

 

Being a Muslim means obeying the laws of the country you live in as long as they do NOT contradict or come into direct violation of Allah’s commandments in the Quran or clear cut Islamic Rulings. So in the case of marrying a younger woman; is this a part of Allah’s commandments or Islamic rulings? Is it an obligation put on ALL Muslim men?

 

Is it Wajib or Fard (strict obligation or compulsive act)? The answer is NO! If a Muslim man never marries a younger woman he is NO less a Muslim than the man who chooses to do so LEGALY. A Muslim man who denies himself this kind of marriage is no closer or further from entering heaven than a Muslim man who marries a young woman.

 

Amaar Khan has to demonstrate or prove that this act of marriage to a younger woman is a strict, compulsory obligation for all Muslim men, and I believe he can NOT because such information is non-existent and is NO part of Islam and it’s teachings.

 

Amaar Khan

I have proven that the Quran allows and promotes pedophilia, Mohammed have made an example of it. His companions have practiced it, and all the mainstream Ulemas are in favor of it, and it is still proudly practiced in the Islamic world.

If we left the issue of Ayesha, there still are other narrations regarding babies which Mohammed wanted to marry. Let us see:

Muhammad wanted to marry a crawling baby-girl. Let us read what Ibn Ishaq, the most authentic biographer of Muhammad, wrote about this.

(Suhayli, ii.79: In the Riwaya of Yunus I. I recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu’l–Fadl) when she was a baby crawling before him and said, ‘If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.’ But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. ‘Abdu’l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubaba… (ibn Ishaq, 2001, p. 311).

Similarly there is another narration:

Muhammad saw Um Habiba the daughter of Abbas while she was fatim (age of nursing) and he said, “If she grows up while I am still alive, I will marry her.” (Musnad Ahmad, Number 25636)

See, how Mohammed wants to get babies even at the deathbed.

Similarly, we know that Mohammed used “transparent skins” for hoories of jannat. And we know that only babies have transparent skins.

It is a proven fact that Mohammed was a pedophile. He wanted to have sex with Ayesha because he saw her in dreams.

(Bukhari 62:015).

Narated By ‘Aisha : Allah’s Apostle said (to me), “You have been shown to me twice in (my) dreams. A man was carrying you in a silken cloth and said to me, ‘This is your wife.’ I uncovered it; and behold, it was you. I said to myself, ‘If this dream is from Allah, He will cause it to come true.’”

We know today that dreams come when we have any desire or wish in any part of our mind. So Mohammed surely did have thoughts about Ayesha in his life before his marriage.

Being a Muslim, it is first and final obligation to do what the prophet have done. To follow his Sunnah is a duty. So it is a duty of every Muslims to follow the Sunnah of the prophet and marry a 9 year old girl.

Saadiq Muhammad

As to the authenticity of these reports, it may be noted that the compilers of the books of Hadith did not apply the same stringent tests when accepting reports relating to historical matters as they did before accepting reports relating to the practical teachings and laws of Islam. The reason is that the former type of report was regarded as merely of academic interest while the latter type of report had a direct bearing on the practical duties of a Muslim and on what was allowed to them and what was prohibited. Thus the occurrence of reports such as the above about the marriage of Aisha in books of Hadith, even in Bukhari, is not necessarily a proof of their credibility.

Amaar Khan

I have explained the authenticity of these narrations. And there is only one reason for repeated narrations regarding pedophilia – it is an accepted thing in Islam. Muslims teach their young girls to respect their husbands by quoting that Ayesha was only nine years when married, but she still respected the prophet very much. I have explained that pedophilia is not only consistent with Ayesha, it is being proved by other sources also. So there is no need for Muslims to hide the age of Ayesha by saying that narrations are wrong. If these narrations are wrong then all the narrations are wrong. If we accept what you say, then the whole Islamic literature is crap. This is a must conclusion.

Saadiq Muhammad


Maulana Muhammad Ali wrote an English booklet titled ‘Prophet of Islam’ and in it he states the following:


“A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching majority at the time. Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be. This is further borne out by the fact that Aisha herself is reported to have stated that when the chapter [of the Holy Quran] entitled The Moon, the fifty-fourth chapter, was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call. All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that Aisha could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal. And there is one report in the Tabaqat that Aisha was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of Aisha took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal, while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijra in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.”

This scholar puts the age of consummation of Aisha at 14 or 15 years old which is in accordance to today’s laws in some 1st world nations (USA and Israel) as to the age of a woman who can be LEGALLY engaged in sexual intercourse with a man.

To facilitate understanding dates of these events, please note that it was in the tenth year of the Call, i.e. the tenth year after the Holy Prophet Muhammad received his calling from God to his mission of prophethood, that his wife Khadija passed away, and the approach was made to Abu Bakr for the hand of his daughter Aisha. The hijra or emigration of the Holy Prophet to Madina took place three years later, and Aisha came to the household of the Holy Prophet in the second year after hijra. So if Aisha was born in the year of the Call, she would be ten years old at the time of the nikah and fifteen years old at the time of the consummation of the marriage.

Amaar Khan

Who is Mohammed Ali? This is the first time, I heard of him. Is he a prophet , a companion of the prophet or a hadith writer?

How can he say so? Any reference from the Quran , the hadith etc.?

 

Saadiq Muhammad

 

Later research by people like Abu Tahir Irfani in his book titled ‘The age of Lady Aisha at the time of the start of her married life’ states that Aisha was 14 or 15 years old at the time of her marriage and 19 years old at the time of her comsumation. He, like others point out the following facts:

 

1.The famous classical historian of Islam, Ibn Jarir Tabari, wrote in his ‘History’:

In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of Abdul Uzza, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom Abdur Rahman and Aisha were born. These four were born before Islam.” [5]

 

Being born before Islam means being born before the Call.

2. The compiler of the famous Hadith collection Mishkat al-Masabih, Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib, who died 700 years ago, has also written brief biographical notes on the narrators of Hadith reports. He writes under Asma, the older daughter of Abu Bakr:

 

“She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet, and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years

This would make Asma 28 years of age in 1 A.H., the year of the Hijra, thus making Aisha 18 years old in 1 A.H. So Aisha would be 19 years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage, and 14 or 15 years old at the time of her nikah. It would place her year of birth at four or five years before the Call.


3. The same statement is made by the famous classical commentator of the Holy Quran, Ibn Kathir, in his book Al-bidayya wal-nihaya:

 

“Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha.”

 

Apart from these three evidences, which are presented in the Urdu pamphlet referred to above, we also note that the birth of Aisha being a little before the Call is consistent with the opening words of a statement by her which is recorded four times in Bukhari. Those words are as follows:

 

“Ever since I can remember (or understand things) my parents were following the religion of Islam.”

 

This is tantamount to saying that she was born sometime before her parents accepted Islam but she can only remember them practicing Islam. No doubt she and her parents knew well whether she was born before or after they accepted Islam, as their acceptance of Islam was such a landmark event in their life which took place just after the Holy Prophet received his mission from God. If she had been born after they accepted Islam it would make no sense for her to say that she always remembered them as following Islam. Only if she was born before they accepted Islam, would it make sense for her to say that she can only remember them being Muslims, as she was too young to remember things before their conversion. This is consistent with her being born before the Call, and being perhaps four or five years old at the time of the Call, which was also almost the time when her parents accepted Islam.

Amaar Khan

When someone becomes that old, people don’t care too much about her exact age. It is very easy to say she was 100 years old when in fact she was only 90. The difference is not noticeable at the old age compared to younger folks, and it is questionable when 100 is a round figure. Assuming the Hadith is authentic, it could be an honest mistake. Since in those days people did not carry birth certificates, it is very much likely that the person who reported her age to be 100 did not know that she was 10 years older than Aisha and did not sit down to make the calculations and deductions. She was not an important person, and it did not occur to anyone that 1300 years later it would become the subject of a controversy. This could be a genuine mistake by the narrator of the Hadith.. Now let us examine the narrations and their authenticity:

In that article the number of ahadith given were:

Book Number of Narrations

Bukhari 6

Muslim 4

Abu Dawud 7

Nisai 1

Ibn Majah 2

Ibn Ishaq 1

Musnad Ahmad 1

Al-Tabari 5

Total 27

There are 27 narrations which are more than many other fundamental rituals of Islam. These narrations say directly that Ayesha was 9 years old. Suppose that all the provided narrations are “weak” then still there are a lot of other hadiths which shows that Ayesha was a young girl when she got married. For example:

‘A’ishah said: I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in.” [Sunan Abu Dawud 3:4913, p.1373]

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151

Narrated ‘Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah’s Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for ‘Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Narrated Aisha: “The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Alright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234)”

Tabari IX:131 “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu’minin:

The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr’s version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

Suppose Ayesha was 14 or 15 years old then isn’t it quite ridiculous that Ayesha was playing with dolls being swung between two branches. She even was not so mature to clean her face because her nurse took her and wiped her face. She burst into laughter. Wow, what kind of bride was she? It is only possible that Ayesha was 9 years old.

She was actually almost 8 years and 9 months old because the narrations are according to lunar calendar. So if you deny 27 strong narrations then you must be a Quran only Muslim. If you are so, then the problem is solved because Quran only Muslim is not a Muslim in reality.

Furthermore, most of the narrations are from Ayesha herself. So there should be no be any ambiguity about her age because only the person herself knows very well what her actual age is.

Still if any one does not believe that Ayesha was 8 years and 9 months old, then he is no more a Muslim.

When did Ayesha get her first menses?

There is a narration in Bukhari regarding the Menarch of Ayesha.

Sahih Bukhari 1:6:293:

Narrated Al-Qasim:

‘Aisha said, “We set out with the sole intention of performing Hajj and when we reached Sarif, (a place six miles from Mecca) I got my menses. Allah’s Apostle came to me while I was weeping. He said ‘What is the matter with you? Have you got your menses?’ I replied, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is a thing which Allah has ordained for the daughters of Adam. So do what all the pilgrims do with the exception of the Taw-af (Circumambulation) round the Ka’ba.” ‘Aisha added, “Allah’s Apostle sacrificed cows on behalf of his wives.”

Sahih Bukhari 2:26:631

Narrated Al-Qasim bin Muhammad:

‘ Aisha said, “We set out with Allah’s Apostles in the months of Hajj, and (in) the nights of Hajj, and at the time and places of Hajj and in a state of Hajj. We dismounted at Sarif (a village six miles from Mecca). The Prophet then addressed his companions and said, “Anyone who has not got the Hadi and likes to do Umra instead of Hajj may do so (i.e. Hajj-al-Tamattu) and anyone who has got the Hadi should not finish the Ihram after performing ‘ Umra). (i.e. Hajj-al-Qiran). Aisha added, “The companions of the Prophet obeyed the above (order) and some of them (i.e. who did not have Hadi) finished their Ihram after Umra.” Allah’s Apostle and some of his companions were resourceful and had the Hadi with them, they could not perform Umra (alone) (but had to perform both Hajj and Umra with one Ihram). Aisha added, “Allah’s Apostle came to me and saw me weeping and said, “What makes you weep, O Hantah?” I replied, “I have heard your conversation with your companions and I cannot perform the Umra.” He asked, “What is wrong with you?’ I replied, ‘I do not offer the prayers (i.e. I have my menses).’ He said, ‘It will not harm you for you are one of the daughters of Adam, and Allah has written for you (this state) as He has written it for them. Keep on with your intentions for Hajj and Allah may reward you that.” Aisha further added, “Then we proceeded for Hajj till we reached Mina and I became clean from my menses.

(Note: The second hadith has been shortened by deleting the last part which has no relevance here at all.)

Mohammed married ayesha after Hijra (emigration to madina) about at the time of the year 622, and she was at the time of 8 years and 9 months old. She got her first menses while journey for hajj in 629 when she was about 16 years. So she got her menses in 4th stage of puberty. Still fifth stage was left even after the hajj.

Saadiq Muhammad

I have been waiting for Amaar khan to answer me for some time now. I have contacted Ali Sina himself, on his Facebook page and requested a debate with either himself or Amaar Khan. Thus far my invitation has not been answered. So, I am taking this opportunity to call out Amaar Khan and challenge him to a debate over this issue. I do hope that those who know and speak to Amaar Khan will relay this challenge to him and direct him to this article that I have written. I do understand that free time is an issue, so I am willing to accept any format, whether it be a wall to wall posting or an e-mail structured debate.

 

Amaar Khan, I am waiting! Will you answer this call or hide from it?

Amaar Khan

Dear brother, today at 8 pm (Pakistan standard time) I got an email from FFI editor about your rebuttal. And I have completed counter rebuttal at 10 pm, in spite of the fact that my midterm examinations have been started. I hope all of your arguments have been answered and I have added some extra data in this article which I left in my compiled article “A Complete Guide to Pedophilia in Islam”. What you have done is nothing new for me. Before leaving Islam, I also used these tactics to satisfy myself. But I know that man is very keen in nature. After reading this counter rebuttal surely there will arise some questions in your mind which will lead you to truth.

Regards,

Amaar khan,

Pakistan

Short URL: http://www.archive2012.faithfreedom.org/?p=4932

Posted by on Feb 24 2009. Filed under Debates. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback to this entry

957 Comments for “Pedophilia: Amaar Khan vs Saadiq Mohammad”

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  8. ibrahim

    I don't get one thing….. why does not sadiq understand that just bcos a girl has started her menses, does not mean that she is either physically or mentaly fit for sexual relations with a man, whether he is her age or the age of her grandfather's, just like Muhammad and ayesha.

  9. proudkafir

    Guys please educate me on a few things.
    1/How dumb a moslem can get? there is dumb. dumber,dumbest and then moslem, then a dumb moslem, dumber moslem and then Dumbest moslem…. Will it go on till eternity like this dumb reproduces dumber etc
    What ever be the age of Ayesha when she attained menarche, what is crucial is how old was the floppy, leaky dik fellow when he went in to ayesha? The umm al momeen? 55! Fit enough to have a stif dik or old enough to have a floppy leaky dik?
    Some one said I was being racist when I said Arabs are not very bright! I should say moslems are not very bright are they?

  10. amaar khan

    Mr sadique .
    sorry for late reply. my grandmother died this week. therefore i was not in the condition to write any thing.i know there are some people in this forum who are little bit harsh to Muslims. but they not right to their place because they think that Muslims understand well when they are ridiculed.
    well
    i can not understand you that which kind of judge or "third party" you want?
    i advise you to be a judge yourself and check out what i have written..
    regards
    ammar

  11. Saadiq1977

    Amaar kahn. i am indeed sorry to hear about the passing of your grandmother. It is indeed a trial and tribulation in our lives when we loose a loved one. Although we may hold to different views on life we do all agree that life is precious and death is hard to digest, especially when it is one we are close to. i know that you may not believe in my faith and its tennants, but i will pray for you, none the less.

    When this debate is done i will reflect upon it and see what, if anything i have learned. all things happen for a reason, and this is no exception. i have finished my counter rebuttal and will send it for publication. like i said, i hope the editors here can add it to this thread so it is easy to find, for those who wish to read on.

    Take your time in responding, as this is a hard time in life for you right now. When you are ready, then make the rebutal and send it .

    Take care and all the best.
    SAADIQ

  12. Stienburger

    I was reading through this particular website when I came across this debate between Saadiq Muhammad and Amar Khan. This particular debate captured my attention because both speakers have demonstrated the ability to debate with one another, without resorting to insults and slander. I do commend both speakers because it would appear as if they are able to do, what many in here have failed to do; hold a debate that has maintained a level of respect and integrity.

    I had no intention of registering with this website, but felt compelled to when I saw the call for a third person party to critique this debate. I would like to offer myself as the one to take on this task. I am not a Muslim, nor do I perscribe to any organized religion. For those of you who want to view my educational cedentials, visit my profile. Iwould encourage Saadiq and Amar to view them as well. If the two of you agree to my proposal, then let me know by posting your response on this site.

    Warmest Regards
    W.S.

    P.S.
    I have read the article, by Amar Khan that sparked this debate and have read this debate, so I am familiar with the content and the argument presented by both sides.

  13. Saadiq1977

    I am not sure how this site works Stienburger, but i can't vview your credentials. you appear to be an honest person, thus far and I am suprised that there is someone in here who appears to be an unbiased person. can you please post any credentials you feel are important so i can see them. Unless someone here can tell me how to view your profile

  14. rationalist

    Comment 47 :@ 5.56 am an unknown person called Stienburger leaves a comment requesting the moderator of FFI to become a judge for the ongoing debate between Sadiq and Amaar Khan.

    Comment 48: @ 6.05 am, precisely 9 minutes after comment 47 was posted, Saadiq trusts Stienburger as a suitable person for judging this debate. Any smell of Al-taqiyya here???

    Stienburger is set up by Saadiq. Ali Sena beware of it!! Muslims can stoop to any level to cheat infidels. We have seen this in India.

  15. Mavan

    Hahaha…

    Saadiq bro – Good that you talked about the integrity of non muslims on this forum. Folks, I think saadiq bro IS Stienburger, offering to be the "neutral third party". If Allah is Khairul Makerin, why cant be muslims.

  16. Komal

    For God Sake Saddiq you think ppl here are idiots ….??? We will buy
    any shit that you have to sell to us …. Most of the people here are above
    normal intelligence otherwise they might have been still Muslims….
    Who is this guy Stienburger ????? U think We r crack pots and u think ur
    prophet can get away with what he did …. Shame on You

  17. rationalist

    Saadiq knows his arguments are extremely weak in the debate. As a non-Muslim, I can safely say that the hadiths provided by Amaar outweigh the secondary sources quoted by Saadiq. Human mind senses when the defeat is at doorsteps. Saadiq is trying tactics to topple the result table.

    Within 9 min span, you trusted Steinburger and chose as your refree. Please enjoy your hamburger. No more Al-taqiyya!! LOL

  18. Stienburger

    My initial impression about this debate are that, both Amar and Saadiq bring up relevant arguments. Saadiq has to accept what the Hadith says about Aisha and her age when she married the founder of Islam. Saadiq quotes a more modern day, second hand source, and although these sources are not Hadith writers their research should not be ignored. It is up to the Muslim community to consolidate the hadith regarding Aisha and her age at the time of marriage & come to some type of consensus, based on evidence, on her actual age. the hadith says she was 9 or 10 so we must accept this as fact, as the Muslims believe in the authenticity of the Hadith and what they say. I do hope that Saadiq is prepared to form an argument, with regards to this problem.

    On the other hand, Saadiq brings up a very valid point. He asks Amar to provide proof as to the importance of a Muslim man marrying a "child bride" in today's society. Amar has to show us that the marriage Muhammad indulged in with Aisha is an intrinsic part of a Muslim man's faith. Saadiq says it is not "a compulsive act" and that Muslims living amongst us today have to abide by the laws of the country they reside in.

    I honestly believe that the Muslim community needs to re-evaluate the actions of Muhammad and come to an agreement as to what can be practiced, without legal rammifications, in today's society and should be left behind in the past. This is happening amongst some circles within the Muslim community. An excellent example of this stems from the concept of travel. There are a small group of Muslims who believe that anything not mentioned in the Quran and Hadith should not be used in daily lives. The refer to these things as being a "Bid'ah" or "innovation". But most of the Muslim comunity see this as being a flawed logic because we cars, trains, planes, etc, which were not around during the life and times of Muhammad. Muhammad rode a camel or maybe a horse and we can all agree that these modes of transport do not sufice in today's society. So the Muslims, in a sense, have let go of this notion and have embraced modern transport. I believe this must happen when speak of Aisha's marriage to Muhammad.

    this is my first impression of this ongoing debate and i can't wait to see what Amar and Saadiq post next

  19. Saadiq1977

    In my previous comment i said

    'I am not sure how this site works Stienburger, but i can’t vview your credentials. you appear to be an honest person, thus far and I am suprised that there is someone in here who appears to be an unbiased person. can you please post any credentials you feel are important so i can see them. Unless someone here can tell me how to view your profile'

    Now can someone in here tell me WHERE i said i trusted this guy or that I want him to be a moderator or third personparty to judge the debate!? I merely stated that the man appears to be genuine. it is so idiotic that people in here loose not only their minds, but their ability to understand the English language!

    For all i know, this guy is one of you in disguise, trying to gain my trust so that i may suggest him for this task.

    Anyways, like i said earlier, i have sent my second rebuttal and i hope it will be here soon. For all of those in here whi quote the 27 sources of Hadith, don't worry. I address these thadith in my response.

    As for you Stienburger, i have net been able to view your credentials. i have read your latest post and, thus far you have not shown any real bias. it would appear as if you know a bit about islam. After i post my rebuttal, and Amar does the same, i will be intrested in reading what you say about the topic. Don't get me wrong (this is for people n the room, not you directly), I still don't fully trust you enough. you appear genuine, which is what i have said, but i don't trust you just yet.

  20. Komal

    @Stienburger:
    just to let you know … U can freely give comments but only in your dreams
    can you be considered a judge for the debate … :p

  21. proudkafir

    Liar liar pants on fire!
    The jewish sounding chappy makes an appearance and says this
    "I was reading through this particular website when I came across this debate between Saadiq Muhammad and Amar Khan. This particular debate captured my attention because both speakers have demonstrated the ability to debate with one another, without resorting to insults and slander. I do commend both speakers because it would appear as if they are able to do, what many in here have failed to do; hold a debate that has maintained a level of respect and integrity."
    Is this the first time this steinberger read this web site? It appears so from the few lines at the start!
    then he goes on to ridicule all the people who comment here regularly as not being decent enough! What's the basis of ridiculing all the people who have commented? No basis.
    Then the moslem clutches to the straw , so to say, to protect the imaan of the pedophile prophet and says Rapist mohammad did no go in to ayesha with out a reason or with out the child's permission. Yeh yeh yeh allahu akbar for making the stupidest people ever on earth.Just a slight problem.There are plenty of allah non believers who can simply smell the stink of a moslem and takkiyya from miles.

  22. Komal

    @proudkafir ….
    we all know somebody is acting like a kid here ….
    Not even a third grade kid wud believe this Stienburger /Saadiq1977
    Hehehehe ….. ;)

    and rofl over Liar Liar pants on fire
    ahahahahaaha

  23. BustedDivinity.

    steinburger.

    Have you ever been to the sub-saharan Africa? well maybe even if you did, it was not for the pedophilia research purpose, the majority of the girls who live in the more remote areas think they are more religious and marry off their daughters at a very low age, you will be surprised to see a brides of 12 and 13, to be candid, it is considered very unIslamic to allow a girl to reach 15-16 in most of these type of societies.

    Now I can understand why you or most westerners will think things like these aren't happening, but sincerely take a research on this and find for yourself, also try to find out whether those doing that are doing it in the Islamic fashion or not.

    Whether those types of marriages are consummatted instantly or not is another issue, the issue here is :does the prophet's teaching and practices have influence on today's happenings cocerning marriages? the answer is yes it does, the more modern Muslims shun these practices only because they are aware of the natural negativity of it not because it is not endorsed by the religion, as human beings we should care about the well being of our fellow humans, well those gils from that region are suffering daily, being stripped off of their rights to even have their own choice of husbands not to talk of the physical suffering that most have already experienced and many more will have to take.

  24. BustedDivinity.

    oops! It should read " the majority of people" not "girls" up there,

  25. Saadiq1977

    It took me a while but I am back. I sent my counter rebuttal to the editors of FFI, last week. i waited several days to see if it was posted on the site but it was no where to be found. then i checked my e-mail account and to my suprise, Amaar khan wrote me back. I opened the e-mail and low and behold, there was my counter rebuttal, along with Amaar's responses. I automatically asked myself why it was not posted on the FFi site. Why was Amaar Khan addressing me on my counter rebuttal in private? i read through the responses given by Amaar and found out that the FFi editors gave the counter rebuttal to Amaar, and after reading it, he asked the FFi NOT to post it. Why did he make such a request? Surely if he is the one on the truthful path and my argument holds no weight, he would have NO problem in it being posted, along with his response, for all to see. in his response he said, and i quote:

    'You are just find errors in my counter rebutal. This is the reason I stop editors to publish that debate at ffi. Because I don’t think this is a “debate”.'

    WOW i said! He openly admits to me that there are erors in his counter rebuttal and then goes on to say that because of these errors, he stopped the FFI from posting my counter rebuttal! i was not expecting this becvause it takes a big man to admit error and i comend Amaar for this, but I look down on his decision to have my counter rebuttal blocked from publication.

    So with that being said, i will post my counter rebuttal to what was written by Amaar khan above. Once I do this i will post Amaar Khan's counter and finally i will post my final response to Amaar khan, which he has not responded to since. i do apologize for not being able to post Amaar's responses with my own, like above. I can't make them different colors on this thread so people can know what was said by myself and what was said by Amaar.

    Here is my counter rebuttal:

    The following is my counter rebuttal to what Amaar Khan has said. I post it here for readers to read and I will submit it for publication, so Amaar Khan can respond, if he wishes.

    First, Mr. Khan states the following:

    'Now the main point here is that according to the Quran, any woman who got divorced before her first menstruation will have three months of “iddah”. So clearly it is allowable to marry a girl who have not yet menstruated. There is no lower limit mentioned in the Quran. So, it is allowed to marry any girl who has not yet have her first menses. She even can be less then one year old.'

    Mr. Khan's argument here, and in many other parts of his rebuttal is that a Muslim man can marry a young girl, as young as one year old, because the Quran does not set an age limit. To this I respond with the following Hadiths:

    Malik related to me from Abdullah ibn al-Fadl from Nafi ibn Jubayr ibn Mutim from Abdullah ibn Abbas that the Messenger of Allah, SAAWS, said, "A woman who has been previously married is more entitled to her person than her guardian, and a virgin must be asked for her consent for herself, and her consent is her silence " [Malik's Muwatta, Book 28, Number 28.2.4]

    The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)." [Sahih Al-Bukhari 7.67]

    As we can see, a virgin woman must be consulted and permission MUST be given by her. Now Mr. Khan, can consent be given by a one year old? Do they have the mental faculty to make such a decision? A one year old can't even form words yet to form an opinion, let alone give permission for marriage. So we see from these hadith that a virgin, who is probably young and just about at that age of her first menstruation, must be old enough to give or refuse permission for marriage. There is no set age for this because everyone develops, mentally at different rates and there is no set age for one, with regards to mental capacity.

    How is permission granted? Her silence, according to the hadith. I know that some uneducated people in here will say that a 1,2,3,4 or even 5 year old will be silent because they can't form the words to properly express what is on their minds. The silence here means her agreement, not a literal silence. If she agrees to marriage, then she puts up no argument, and if she disagrees, she lets it be known to those who bring forth the proposal. So let’s make that clear so I can avoid these kinds of people.

    Also, forced marriage is Haram, according to the following Hadith:Narrated Khansa bint Khidam Al Ansariya "…that her father gave her in marriage when she was a matron and she disliked that marriage. So she went to Allah's Apostle and he declared that marriage invalid." [Sahih Al-Bukhari 7.69].

    So Mr.Khan, since a young woman has to give permission, this illustrates that one can NOT seek marriage from a woman who has yet to develop the mental capability and speech to agree or disagree with the marriage.

    Secondly, you give us a list of countries and list their legal age of sexual consent. Then you say:

    ‘From the above chart, the minimum age limit in Afghanistan is 14 years, and in Iran, it is 13 years. Both are Islamic countries, and they follow the Sunnah. But, still the age of Menarch varies from 10-16.’

    Well what about Indiana and Iowa in the USA and Israel, where I have stated the age is 14 years old? How come you have not addressed this? Also, you point out Afghanistan and Iran to prove a point. We should look at other Muslim countries as well. In your list is the following:

    Algeria and Bangladesh the woman must be at least 18

    Tunisia the woman must be at least 17

    These ages are older than the ages set forth in:

    USA where the average is 16

    Canada where the woman must be 16

    UK where the woman must be 16

    Other Muslim countries, in your list, like Egypt have the same age, being at least 16.

    Mr. Khan you can't pick and choose countries to suit your goals. Why don’t you emphasize these other countries? Could it be that if you did, people would see that not ALL Muslim countries allow such young age for marriage?

    Let's examine this more closely though. You have lied about the age of consent in Afghanistan. The stipulations for marriage there is that the man and woman must be married and be at least 18 years old. Although younger marriages take place in Afghanistan, etc, these marriages are ILLEGAL. The USA suffers from the same thing. Take Jeffs, the polygamous leader in Utah for example or David Koresh, they had relations with women under the legal age limit prescribed in the law. This is not an Islamic phenomena, it’s a worldwide issue. Every country battles with these types of illegal marriages. Also let's look at the age of sexual consent in some NON MUSLIM countries:

    1. Cyprus the woman must be at least 13

    2. Mexico the woman must be at least 12

    3. Philippines the woman must be at least 12

    Again, why has Mr. Khan not shown this? Could it be that he wants us to believe that this only happens in Muslim countries? This is deceitful Mr. Khan!

    If we look to the average age of marriage we will see that every country averages about the same. Visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_at_first_marriag… to see a list of these countries.

    Next, you go on to state the following:

    ‘For example, if the age of first menses was 17 in 622 AD then it was allowed to marry a girl at 17. If the age of first menses is 12, it is allowed to marry a girl at 12 according to Islam. This means that the Quranic “alleged” lower limit is decreasing with the passage of time.’

    It would appear as if you missed a vital point I made in my initial rebuttal. I said the following:

    ‘Being a Muslim means obeying the laws of the country you live in as long as they do NOT contradict or come into direct violation of Allah’s commandments in the Quran or clear cut Islamic Rulings. So in the case of marrying a younger woman; is this a part of Allah’s commandments or Islamic rulings? Is it an obligation put on ALL Muslim men?

    Is it Wajib or Fard (strict obligation or compulsive act)? The answer is NO! If a Muslim man never marries a younger woman he is NO less a Muslim than the man who chooses to do so LEGALY. A Muslim man who denies himself this kind of marriage is no closer or further from entering heaven than a Muslim man who marries a young woman.

    Amaar Khan has to demonstrate or prove that this act of marriage to a younger woman is a strict, compulsory obligation for all Muslim men, and I believe he can NOT because such information is non-existent and is NO part of Islam and its teachings.’

    So if the law of the country a Muslim lives in says the woman has to be at least 16, then he must obey this law, as it does not come into conflict with the commandments of Allah. Also, I have said that this type of marriage is NOT a compulsory act upon all Muslim men. If you could demonstrate that it is, then you may have a point, but you will not find anything from the Quran or hadith that make this act a strict obligation on a Muslim Man. Mr. Khan, I await your proofs for this point.

    Then, you quote the following hadith:

    ‘Muhammad wanted to marry a crawling baby-girl. Let us read what Ibn Ishaq, the most authentic biographer of Muhammad, wrote about this.

    (Suhayli, ii.79: In the Riwaya of Yunus I. I recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu’l–Fadl) when she was a baby crawling before him and said, ‘If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.’ But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. ‘Abdu’l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubaba… (ibn Ishaq, 2001, p. 311).

    Similarly there is another narration:

    Muhammad saw Um Habiba the daughter of Abbas while she was fatim (age of nursing) and he said, “If she grows up while I am still alive, I will marry her.” (Musnad Ahmad, Number 25636

    I find it funny that a certain part of speech here has been overlooked. Again, you are picking at parts to suit your goals without showing the bigger picture here. In these narrations, the Prophet says "If she grows up while I am alive, I will marry her"

    What is the prophet saying here? What does he mean when he says ‘grows up’? I have been teaching English as a second language for some time now. I have taught many age groups. When I teach younger students I always ask them, ‘What do you want to be when you grow up?’. I get many answers but the point is clear. When we say ‘grown up’ we mean when they reach adulthood. We don’t mean next year or 2 years from now. Similarly, when the prophet says ‘If she grows up…’ he means when the woman reaches adulthood and becomes a woman. If the prophet was a pedophile, he would have demanded an immediate marriage to the girl. He would not wait for them to grow up Mr. Khan.

    Then you say the following:

    ‘So there is no need for Muslims to hide the age of Ayesha by saying that narrations are wrong. If these narrations are wrong then all the narrations are wrong. If we accept what you say, then the whole Islamic literature is crap. This is a must conclusion.’

    This is an inaccurate conclusion. First, we must make clear that the hadith are not free from the fallacies of man, since it did NOT come directly from Allah. Also, I have said in my rebuttal the following:

    ‘As to the authenticity of these reports, it may be noted that the compilers of the books of Hadith did not apply the same stringent tests when accepting reports relating to historical matters as they did before accepting reports relating to the practical teachings and laws of Islam. The reason is that the former type of report was regarded as merely of academic interest while the latter type of report had a direct bearing on the practical duties of a Muslim and on what was allowed to them and what was prohibited. Thus the occurrence of reports such as the above about the marriage of Aisha in books of Hadith, even in Bukhari, is not necessarily a proof of their credibility.’

    I think we can agree that History is constantly re-writing itself. As more and more investigation is done, and as more artifacts are found, the former concepts we have about history change. A good example is Columbus. For years many have said that he discovered America. Recent discoveries have suggested that the Vikings were in the Americas before Columbus. In my place of residence, Indonesia, it has long been held that the first man (commonly known as ‘Java Man’) arrived here millions of years ago. Archeologists have contended that Java Man was the first Homo-erectus to arrive here. In recent times skeletal remains of homo-erectus man were found in Papua (referred to as ‘Hobbit Man’ because of their small stature) have been found and they pre-date Java Man, when carbon tested. Thus, Archeologists have re-written what was once held as historical fact.

    If history is written and re-written then same must be true of the hadith. When one closely investigates the life and times of Muhammad, one sees that Aisha could not have been 9 years old when she married Muhammad. The problem here is that the Muslim community can NOT agree on anything nowadays (a shameful truth), so we are dragging our feet when it comes to correcting some of the hadith, based on investigation.

    You then go on to say:

    ‘Who is Mohammed Ali? This is the first time, I heard of him. Is he a prophet , a companion of the prophet or a hadith writer? How can he say so? Any reference from the Quran , the hadith etc.?’

    Just because you have not heard of the sources I quoted, doesn’t mean that they are not reliable. It just means that you have failed to do full research. Also, just because they are not prophets or companions of the prophet or hadith writers, doesn’t disqualify them as being truthful sources. If your logic is applied here, then we should not listen to historians or archeologists or anthropologists because they were not witnesses to the events they speak and investigate about. I have given you enough information about these men, so look them up, read their works, and then form a rebuttal if you do not agree with their statements.

    Also, with regards to time line outlined by Abu Tahir Irfani in his book titled ‘The age of Lady Aisha at the time of the start of her married life’, you said the following:

    ‘When someone becomes that old, people don’t care too much about her exact age. It is very easy to say she was 100 years old when in fact she was only 90. The difference is not noticeable at the old age compared to younger folks, and it is questionable when 100 is a round figure.’

    I find it suspicious that you would make such a claim. If history tells us she was 100, then she was 100. I am sure that if her being 100 proved that Aisha was 9 when she married Muhammad, you would have NO problem in accepting this age. Again you are ducking the facts that I have put forward by resorting to a cheap ‘cop out’. You then go on further to say the following:

    ‘Assuming the Hadith is authentic, it could be an honest mistake. Since in those days people did not carry birth certificates, it is very much likely that the person who reported her age to be 100 did not know that she was 10 years older than Aisha and did not sit down to make the calculations and deductions.’

    Here is when you contradict yourself Amaar Khan. I will pose the exact same question you posed to me, with regards to Muhammad Ali and his investigation. I will change the name obviously to fit you.

    ‘Who is Amaar Khan? This is the first time, I heard of him. Is he a prophet , a companion of the prophet or a hadith writer? How can he say so? Any reference from the Quran , the hadith etc.?’

    If you disqualify my source because he is not a prophet, a companion or a hadith writer, then we can disqualify your statements about the age of 100 because you are not a prophet, a companion or hadith writer. Also you say that the 27 claims you have pointed out about aisha’s age are accurate. When I say they may not be you reject my assertion, but when hadith are brought up about the age of a woman you, essentially say the same thing I say. You say ‘Assuming the hadith is authentic, it could be an HONEST MISTAKE.’ If you are willing to accept this then can’t we say that the age of Aisha in the 27 hadith (most of which are duplicates of the same event and separate events) may be an HONEST MISTAKE? See the contradiction here Mr. Khan? Finally, you say:

    ‘She was not an important person, and it did not occur to anyone that 1300 years later it would become the subject of a controversy. This could be a genuine mistake by the narrator of the Hadith.’

    This is a laughable statement. The only one who considers a controversy is you and your hate filled affiliates. The Muslim world has no problem in accepting the fact that she was 100 years old. You have a problem with this because it shows that Aisha could not have been 9 when she married the prophet. Again, this is due in part to your lack of investigation Amaar Kahn. What do you mean she was not an important person! She was the sister of Aisha (prophets wife), daughter of Abu Bakr Siddiq (prophets closest and best friend) and sister in law to the prophet himself! I think it is safe to say she was more important than you say she was Amaar Khan.

    You then go on to quote other hadith to try and show that Aisha was a young girl. You quote hadith that say she used to play with dolls and used to play on a swing. You also quote hadith that shows her nurse washed wiped her face. These hadith prove noting in your case because there is no explicit age given here. There is no age given as to ascertain Aisha’s age. The fact she played with dolls or played on a swing proves nothing. I know grown men who still play with GI Joe dolls because it was a fragment of their childhood, as funny as that sounds. My niece, who is 16, going on 17 still has dolls. I am a 31 year old man and I still like playing on a swing when I bring my children to the park. The point is, these activities don’t prove anything, with regards to age. These activities are enjoyed by people of all ages. Also, the fact that her nurse wiped her face proves nothing. That is what a nurse is supposed to do, look after and take care of the patient. You also quote hadith, with regards to Aisha bursting out in laughter. Again this proves nothing. Are you trying to tell me that full grown women DON’T burst out in laughter as well. You are trying to tell me that only adolescent girls do this! This is a ridiculous statement Mr. Khan. Lastly, you speak of the women in heaven as having clear or transparent skin, and that only adolescents have skin like this. This is not factual on your part Amaar because the description is illustrating the beauty of these companions as being the purest, most beautiful creation man has ever seen. This doesn’t speak to the age of these companions, besides in heaven, age is not an issue because we become immortalized. These statements prove nothing in your defense Mr. Khan.

    In conclusion I will end this counter rebuttal with this. Mr. Khan if we were to agree that Aisha was 6 when she married the prophet and about 10 when the marriage was consummated, we must realize one important factor. This type of marriage was common place in Arabia, as well as in Asia, Africa and Europe. We can’t apply today’s logic and understanding to the actions of a person who lived 1400 years ago. We must judge them by the laws and common practices of the times they lived in. in Muhammad’s time this was common place and was not illegal. Ali Sina says that Muslims use this as an excuse to pardon the actions of the prophet. Don’t misunderstand me here, I am not using this as an excuse. I am merely showing that this act was common place. The implications of this act must be addressed when speaking about Muslims, who emulate the prophet, living in today’s society. As I said earlier, Muslims living in ‘western’ nations can NOT participate in this kind of marriage because the act is illegal in most ‘western’ countries. We have to abide by the laws of the country we live in, as long as they do not come into direct conflict with the commandments of Allah. It is your job, Mr. Khan, to disprove this fact. As I have said earlier, if you can disprove this then you have a point. You have to show us that this type of marriage is a strict obligation, put upon ALL Muslim men. Until you can show us this, your argument holds no weight.

    I know that the opinion of many is that a man who is significantly older than a woman, should not be with that woman, but should look for a wife or companion that is closer in age. I hold this opinion to be true myself, but that does not make me any less or more a Muslim than someone who thinks otherwise. If the laws, here in Canada, for example, says a woman can consent to sex with a man at age 16, she can do so whether the man is 16, 18, 25, 40, or 60. A man who is older and does so, in this case, is not guilty of any crime, according to the laws of Canada, thus we should not label him a pedophile. Laws, like history evolve over time and we can not persecute a man who did an act that is illegal today, but was not illegal at the time of that mans action. Ali Sina and Amaar Khan have to take this fact into serious consideration before they assert their opinions. Instead of dealing with this fact, Ali Sina simply says it’s a way in which Muslims wiggle themselves out of a hard situation. Any notable historian would have no trouble in accepting this fact, but for some reason Ali Sina does!? These points are outlined on the following website http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage .

    Amaar Khan I must say that I do appreciate you taking the time to write on this subject. We both have busy schedules and it becomes hard for us to take time out of a busy day to do these things. We may have a difference of opinion, but at least we are both people who conduct themselves in a civilized manner. I await your response

  26. Saadiq1977

    Here is the entire debate, uncut, between Amaar Khan and myself. As I said there are no color options but I will try my best to separate what I said and what Amaar said by letting the reader know when a change of speaker happens. Read it carefully and then decide for yourself people. Enjoy!
    In my original counter rebuttal I said the following:

    The following is my counter rebuttal to what Amaar Khan has said. I post it here for readers to read and I will submit it for publication, so Amaar Khan can respond, if he wishes.

    Amaar Khan responded to my counter rebuttal, saying:
    I am not going to write any rebuttal because you have not written anything sensible which deserves rebuttal. It is just a commentary on your writing.
    I then countered Amaar Khan, by saying the following:
    It is not commentary on my writing. It I me repeating the same questions over and over because you duck them. You duck them because you have answer that supports your claims! If you would answer the questions, they wouldn't be repeated.
    In my original counter rebuttal I said the following:

    First, Mr. Khan states the following:
    'Now the main point here is that according to the Quran, any woman who got divorced before her first menstruation will have three months of “iddah”. So clearly it is allowable to marry a girl who have not yet menstruated. There is no lower limit mentioned in the Quran. So, it is allowed to marry any girl who has not yet have her first menses. She even can be less then one year old.'
    Mr. Khan's argument here, and in many other parts of his rebuttal is that a Muslim man can marry a young girl, as young as one year old, because the Quran does not set an age limit. To this I respond with the following Hadiths:
    Malik related to me from Abdullah ibn al-Fadl from Nafi ibn Jubayr ibn Mutim from Abdullah ibn Abbas that the Messenger of Allah, SAAWS, said, "A woman who has been previously married is more entitled to her person than her guardian, and a virgin must be asked for her consent for herself, and her consent is her silence " [Malik's Muwatta, Book 28, Number 28.2.4]
    The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)." [Sahih Al-Bukhari 7.67]
    As we can see, a virgin woman must be consulted and permission MUST be given by her. Now Mr. Khan, can consent be given by a one year old? Do they have the mental faculty to make such a decision? A one year old can't even form words yet to form an opinion, let alone give permission for marriage. So we see from these hadith that a virgin, who is probably young and just about at that age of her first menstruation, must be old enough to give or refuse permission for marriage. There is no set age for this because everyone develops, mentally at different rates and there is no set age for one, with regards to mental capacity.
    How is permission granted? Her silence, according to the hadith. I know that some uneducated people in here will say that a 1,2,3,4 or even 5 year old will be silent because they can't form the words to properly express what is on their minds. The silence here means her agreement, not a literal silence. If she agrees to marriage, then she puts up no argument, and if she disagrees, she lets it be known to those who bring forth the proposal. So let’s make that clear so I can avoid these kinds of people. So Mr. Khan, since a young woman has to give permission, this illustrates that one can NOT seek marriage from a woman who has yet to develop the mental capability and speech to agree or disagree with the marriage.
    Amaar Khan responded to my counter rebuttal, saying:
    Permission of Ayesha was never taken by her parents. Even she was very surprised at the first day when Mohammed came to her.
    Bukhari Volume 007, Book 062, Hadith Number 090.
    Narrated By 'Aisha : When the Prophet married me, my mother came to me and made me enter the house (of the Prophet) and nothing surprised me but the coming of Allah's Apostle to me in the forenoon.
    We are not discussing here allowance or prohibitation of child marriage in islam.My concerned is that Mohammed did not care and married a young girl of age 9. So he cannot be a prophet.
    I then countered Amaar Khan, by saying the following:
    Just because the event of permission is not mentioned in the hadith you quoted, doesn't mean that permission was never sought. In Bukhari 62:18 we read
    'The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry"
    So contrary to what you say, Muhammad asked Aisha's Wail, her father Abu bakr for permission to marry her.
    I also find it funny that you have ducked one of my points. You say there is no age limit and say there is by showing that the woman must have the mental capacity, as well as complex language skills before she can be approached for marriage. She must give permission before the marriage, as I have shown above. Can 1 year olds give permission Amaar/ you have not answered this simple question but it is ok. By answering this question, honestly, you just disprove your own fact and I know that it is hard for some people to admit contradiction. I only ask that you stop using this argument because it is not true and you know it Amaar.
    In my original counter rebuttal I said the following:

    Secondly, you give us a list of countries and list their legal age of sexual consent. Then you say:
    ‘From the above chart, the minimum age limit in Afghanistan is 14 years, and in Iran, it is 13 years. Both are Islamic countries, and they follow the Sunnah. But, still the age of Menarch varies from 10-16.’
    Well what about Indiana and Iowa in the USA and Israel, where I have stated the age is 14 years old? How come you have not addressed this? Also, you point out Afghanistan and Iran to prove a point. We should look at other Muslim countries as well. In your list is the following:
    Algeria and Bangladesh the woman must be at least 18
    Tunisia the woman must be at least 17
    These ages are older than the ages set forth in:
    USA where the average is 16
    Canada where the woman must be 16
    UK where the woman must be 16
    Other Muslim countries, in your list, like Egypt have the same age, being at least 16.
    Mr. Khan you can't pick and choose countries to suit your goals. Why don’t you emphasize these other countries? Could it be that if you did, people would see that not ALL Muslim countries allow such young age for marriage?
    Let's examine this more closely though. You have lied about the age of consent in Afghanistan. The stipulations for marriage there is that the man and woman must be married and be at least 18 years old. Although younger marriages take place in Afghanistan, etc, these marriages are ILLEGAL. The USA suffers from the same thing. Take Jeffs, the polygamous leader in Utah for example or David Koresh, they had relations with women under the legal age limit prescribed in the law. This is not an Islamic phenomena, it’s a worldwide issue. Every country battles with these types of illegal marriages. Also let's look at the age of sexual consent in some NON MUSLIM countries:
    1. Cyprus the woman must be at least 13
    2. Mexico the woman must be at least 12
    3. Philippines the woman must be at least 12
    Again, why has Mr. Khan not shown this? Could it be that he wants us to believe that this only happens in Muslim countries? This is deceitful Mr. Khan!
    If we look to the average age of marriage we will see that every country averages about the same. Visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_at_first_marriag… to see a list of these countries.
    Amaar Khan responded to my counter rebuttal, saying:
    Whatever the ages of marriage in different countries are, we are not concerned with that.
    I claim are that
    1) Mohammed married 9 year old girl.
    2) Have sex with her
    3) He have attractions for other babies too
    4) So he is a pedophile
    I have given a number of hadiths and proved that Quran promote pedophilia. Now it’s your turn to give me some hadiths or verses of Quran against my arguments.
    You are just find errors in my counter rebuttal. This is the reason I stop editors to publish that debate at ffi. Because I don’t think this is a “debate”.
    I then countered Amaar Khan, by saying the following:
    I am glad that you realize there are mistakes in your debate. If this topic was of no importance, then why did YOU bring it up in the first place. I never made mention of age limits in so called Muslim nations, you did! I am responding to your claim here. The reason it is not important to you now is because I exposed your deceitful ways. You give the readers the impression that this is an Islamic phenomenon, and I showed that it happens all over the world, even in non Muslim countries. For future reference, if something is not important, then don't bring up in the conversation.
    In my original counter rebuttal I said the following:

    Next, you go on to state the following:
    ‘For example, if the age of first menses was 17 in 622 AD then it was allowed to marry a girl at 17. If the age of first menses is 12, it is allowed to marry a girl at 12 according to Islam. This means that the Quranic “alleged” lower limit is decreasing with the passage of time.’
    It would appear as if you missed a vital point I made in my initial rebuttal. I said the following:
    ‘Being a Muslim means obeying the laws of the country you live in as long as they do NOT contradict or come into direct violation of Allah’s commandments in the Quran or clear cut Islamic Rulings. So in the case of marrying a younger woman; is this a part of Allah’s commandments or Islamic rulings? Is it an obligation put on ALL Muslim men?
    Is it Wajib or Fard (strict obligation or compulsive act)? The answer is NO! If a Muslim man never marries a younger woman he is NO less a Muslim than the man who chooses to do so LEGALY. A Muslim man who denies himself this kind of marriage is no closer or further from entering heaven than a Muslim man who marries a young woman.
    Amaar Khan has to demonstrate or prove that this act of marriage to a younger woman is a strict, compulsory obligation for all Muslim men, and I believe he can NOT because such information is non-existent and is NO part of Islam and its teachings.’
    Amaar Khan responded to my counter rebuttal, saying:
    It is not wajib or farz. But is allowed in Islam. Islam is for every nation and it is complete code of life. Isn’t it?
    If child marriages are allowed in Islam. It means that Islam is wrong.
    Furthermore, if we move a few decades back when there were no laws. Then what was Islamic ruling about child marriage?
    What you should be doing at that time? Surely marrying 9 year girls.
    I then countered Amaar Khan, by saying the following:
    I am happy again to see that you at least know that this type of marriage is not Wajib or fard. You missed the point here amaar. Islam is a complete code for life. Marriage to a young girl is permitted, but the laws of the country you live in MUST permit as well! If the country says it is ILLEGAL, then a Muslim can't marry a young girl. Also, it is not as easy as finding a young girl and getting married. As stated above her permission and the permission of Wali have to be given before one looks at the legal age in the country they live in. unfortunately this is not practiced the way it is supposed to by Muslims, but put blame on those Muslims, not the faith they say they believe in.
    In my original counter rebuttal I said the following:

    So if the law of the country a Muslim lives in says the woman has to be at least 16, then he must obey this law, as it does not come into conflict with the commandments of Allah. Also, I have said that this type of marriage is NOT a compulsory act upon all Muslim men. If you could demonstrate that it is, then you may have a point, but you will not find anything from the Quran or hadith that make this act a strict obligation on a Muslim Man. Mr. Khan, I await your proofs for this point.
    Then, you quote the following hadith:
    ‘Muhammad wanted to marry a crawling baby-girl. Let us read what Ibn Ishaq, the most authentic biographer of Muhammad, wrote about this.
    (Suhayli, ii.79: In the Riwaya of Yunus I. I recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu’l–Fadl) when she was a baby crawling before him and said, ‘If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.’ But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. ‘Abdu’l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubaba… (ibn Ishaq, 2001, p. 311).
    Similarly there is another narration:
    Muhammad saw Um Habiba the daughter of Abbas while she was fatim (age of nursing) and he said, “If she grows up while I am still alive, I will marry her.” (Musnad Ahmad, Number 25636
    I find it funny that a certain part of speech here has been overlooked. Again, you are picking at parts to suit your goals without showing the bigger picture here. In these narrations, the Prophet says "If she grows up while I am alive, I will marry her"
    What is the prophet saying here? What does he mean when he says ‘grows up’? I have been teaching English as a second language for some time now. I have taught many age groups. When I teach younger students I always ask them, ‘What do you want to be when you grow up?’. I get many answers but the point is clear. When we say ‘grown up’ we mean when they reach adulthood. We don’t mean next year or 2 years from now. Similarly, when the prophet says ‘If she grows up…’ he means when the woman reaches adulthood and becomes a woman. If the prophet was a pedophile, he would have demanded an immediate marriage to the girl. He would not wait for them to grow up Mr. Khan.
    Amaar Khan responded to my counter rebuttal, saying:
    Ha ha ….
    I can understand you really. I have quoted that hadith to prove that Mohammed even have attraction for a crawling baby. Do you ever think to marry a crawling baby?
    Frankly , please tell me. Do you ever have feeling like that?
    You know what was the age of Mohammed at that time?
    He was more than 60 and have more than 30 wives. Still he wish to marry a crawling girl. Isn’t it shameful?
    I then countered Amaar Khan, by saying the following:
    Again, you have ducked my point because you have no feasible response. the prophet clearly said "if she grows up", meaning when they become ADULTS. Amaar I said it before and I will say it again, if Muhammad was a pedophile he would have ordered the marriage right away and would have said he would marry them if they grew up. how come you haven't addressed this/ Could it be that you have no response for this FACT?
    In my original counter rebuttal I said the following:

    Then you say the following:
    ‘So there is no need for Muslims to hide the age of Ayesha by saying that narrations are wrong. If these narrations are wrong then all the narrations are wrong. If we accept what you say, then the whole Islamic literature is crap. This is a must conclusion.’
    This is an inaccurate conclusion. First, we must make clear that the hadith are not free from the fallacies of man, since it did NOT come directly from Allah. Also, I have said in my rebuttal the following:
    ‘As to the authenticity of these reports, it may be noted that the compilers of the books of Hadith did not apply the same stringent tests when accepting reports relating to historical matters as they did before accepting reports relating to the practical teachings and laws of Islam. The reason is that the former type of report was regarded as merely of academic interest while the latter type of report had a direct bearing on the practical duties of a Muslim and on what was allowed to them and what was prohibited. Thus the occurrence of reports such as the above about the marriage of Aisha in books of Hadith, even in Bukhari, is not necessarily a proof of their credibility.’
    I think we can agree that History is constantly re-writing itself. As more and more investigation is done, and as more artifacts are found, the former concepts we have about history change. A good example is Columbus. For years many have said that he discovered America. Recent discoveries have suggested that the Vikings were in the Americas before Columbus. In my place of residence, Indonesia, it has long been held that the first man (commonly known as ‘Java Man’) arrived here millions of years ago. Archeologists have contended that Java Man was the first Homo-erectus to arrive here. In recent times skeletal remains of homo-erectus man were found in Papua (referred to as ‘Hobbit Man’ because of their small stature) have been found and they pre-date Java Man, when carbon tested. Thus, Archeologists have re-written what was once held as historical fact.
    If history is written and re-written then same must be true of the hadith. When one closely investigates the life and times of Muhammad, one sees that Aisha could not have been 9 years old when she married Muhammad. The problem here is that the Muslim community can NOT agree on anything nowadays (a shameful truth), so we are dragging our feet when it comes to correcting some of the hadith, based on investigation.
    Amaar Khan responded to my counter rebuttal, saying:
    O my dear brother or perhaps uncle. You are really a good man. But I don’t understand why you don’t believe that all the narrations about Ayesha cannot be corrected. Because they are in a large number. And this rebuttal is not going to be published at ffi. If you want then we can also debate or share our veiws on different topic of islam. I am a student from pakistan. I left islam because it is not a true religion. And none of the religion is true. All are man made.
    Reformation and correctness of ahadith is being done in turkey and in pakistan also.but it is not very easy to reform islam. but still attempts are being made.
    I then countered Amaar Khan, by saying the following:
    If reformation of hadith are being done in your home country, why not open yourself to the possibility that the age of Aisha, in hadith , may be incorrect? you say these hadith are in large number but this is misleading. you quote 27 sources, which in the grand scope of hadith is very small, but what you have failed to do is show us how many of these 27 narrations are repeats or duplicates. how many of these hadith speak about the same situation. If you and i see an incident, and both record that incident, is it 2 incidents/ no, it is one incident, with two eye witness accounts 9yours and mine). I know how many of these hadith re duplicates of the same situation, do you/ Study this and you will see that "huge" number of 27 shrink my friend.
    In my original counter rebuttal I said the following:

    You then go on to say:
    ‘Who is Mohammed Ali? This is the first time, I heard of him. Is he a prophet , a companion of the prophet or a hadith writer? How can he say so? Any reference from the Quran , the hadith etc.?’
    Just because you have not heard of the sources I quoted, doesn’t mean that they are not reliable. It just means that you have failed to do full research. Also, just because they are not prophets or companions of the prophet or hadith writers, doesn’t disqualify them as being truthful sources. If your logic is applied here, then we should not listen to historians or archeologists or anthropologists because they were not witnesses to the events they speak and investigate about. I have given you enough information about these men, so look them up, read their works, and then form a rebuttal if you do not agree with their statements.
    Amaar Khan responded to my counter rebuttal, saying:
    I think you have never heard or read any debate. You are to fucussed on primary source of islam. I havent quoted khomeni’s saying about pedopilia’a allowance. So why are you qouting the secondary sources.
    I then countered Amaar Khan, by saying the following:
    Above, you say that reformation is happening in pakistan. Well these sources i used are from pakistan. Why is it that you accept reformation, but when that reformation contradicts what you say, you discard it? You can't have it both ways Amaar! I also find it funny that you CONTRADICT yourself, once again. You say that I should not use secondary sources and that we should stick to Quran and Hadith only. But, if we look to your original article, that prompted this debate you use SECONDARY SOURCES! If we go to http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/02/14/2047/3/ we see that you used SECONDARY SOURCES. You even quote Khomeni in your article to prove Islam promotes pedophilia. I must ask you an important question Amaar, ‘Why is it ok for you to use secondary sources to prove your points, but when secondary sources are used to refute your claims, you say we shouldn’t use them?’ You can’t have your cake and eat it too Amaar; we either use them or not: we don’t pick and choose to prove a point. Again, CONTRADICTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    In my original counter rebuttal I said the following:
    Also, with regards to time line outlined by Abu Tahir Irfani in his book titled ‘The age of Lady Aisha at the time of the start of her married life’, you said the following:
    ‘When someone becomes that old, people don’t care too much about her exact age. It is very easy to say she was 100 years old when in fact she was only 90. The difference is not noticeable at the old age compared to younger folks, and it is questionable when 100 is a round figure.’
    I find it suspicious that you would make such a claim. If history tells us she was 100, then she was 100. I am sure that if her being 100 proved that Aisha was 9 when she married Muhammad, you would have NO problem in accepting this age. Again you are ducking the facts that I have put forward by resorting to a cheap ‘cop out’. You then go on further to say the following:
    ‘Assuming the Hadith is authentic, it could be an honest mistake. Since in those days people did not carry birth certificates, it is very much likely that the person who reported her age to be 100 did not know that she was 10 years older than Aisha and did not sit down to make the calculations and deductions.’
    Here is when you contradict yourself Amaar Khan. I will pose the exact same question you posed to me, with regards to Muhammad Ali and his investigation. I will change the name obviously to fit you.
    ‘Who is Amaar Khan? This is the first time, I heard of him. Is he a prophet , a companion of the prophet or a hadith writer? How can he say so? Any reference from the Quran , the hadith etc.?’
    If you disqualify my source because he is not a prophet, a companion or a hadith writer, then we can disqualify your statements about the age of 100 because you are not a prophet, a companion or hadith writer. Also you say that the 27 claims you have pointed out about aisha’s age are accurate. When I say they may not be you reject my assertion, but when hadith are brought up about the age of a woman you, essentially say the same thing I say. You say ‘Assuming the hadith is authentic, it could be an HONEST MISTAKE.’ If you are willing to accept this then can’t we say that the age of Aisha in the 27 hadith (most of which are duplicates of the same event and separate events) may be an HONEST MISTAKE? See the contradiction here Mr. Khan? Finally, you say:
    ‘She was not an important person, and it did not occur to anyone that 1300 years later it would become the subject of a controversy. This could be a genuine mistake by the narrator of the Hadith.’
    This is a laughable statement. The only one who considers a controversy is you and your hate filled affiliates. The Muslim world has no problem in accepting the fact that she was 100 years old. You have a problem with this because it shows that Aisha could not have been 9 when she married the prophet. Again, this is due in part to your lack of investigation Amaar Kahn. What do you mean she was not an important person! She was the sister of Aisha (prophets wife), daughter of Abu Bakr Siddiq (prophets closest and best friend) and sister in law to the prophet himself! I think it is safe to say she was more important than you say she was Amaar Khan.
    Amaar Khan responded to my counter rebuttal, saying:
    You are right, I have not investigated on this argument. Because there is no need to investigate for that because there are tons of evidence against it so there is no need to investigate at all.
    I then countered Amaar Khan, by saying the following:
    Again, you contradict yourself for the same reason I mentioned above. you either accept reformation of hadith or you don't. you can't pick and choose Amaar. investigate the time line of events and you will see that isha could not have been 9 at the time of marriage.
    In my original counter rebuttal I said the following:
    You then go on to quote other hadith to try and show that Aisha was a young girl. You quote hadith that say she used to play with dolls and used to play on a swing. You also quote hadith that shows her nurse washed wiped her face. These hadith prove noting in your case because there is no explicit age given here. There is no age given as to ascertain Aisha’s age. The fact she played with dolls or played on a swing proves nothing. I know grown men who still play with GI Joe dolls because it was a fragment of their childhood, as funny as that sounds. My niece, who is 16, going on 17 still has dolls. I am a 31 year old man and I still like playing on a swing when I bring my children to the park. The point is, these activities don’t prove anything, with regards to age. These activities are enjoyed by people of all ages. Also, the fact that her nurse wiped her face proves nothing. That is what a nurse is supposed to do, look after and take care of the patient. You also quote hadith, with regards to Aisha bursting out in laughter. Again this proves nothing. Are you trying to tell me that full grown women DON’T burst out in laughter as well. You are trying to tell me that only adolescent girls do this! This is a ridiculous statement Mr. Khan. Lastly, you speak of the women in heaven as having clear or transparent skin, and that only adolescents have skin like this. This is not factual on your part Amaar because the description is illustrating the beauty of these companions as being the purest, most beautiful creation man has ever seen. This doesn’t speak to the age of these companions, besides in heaven, age is not an issue because we become immortalized. These statements prove nothing in your defense Mr. Khan.
    Amaar Khan responded to my counter rebuttal, saying:
    Brother , all given hadiths support my argument that ayesha was nine because only little girls play with dolls. And you know that.
    I then countered Amaar Khan, by saying the following:
    i am not suprised at your coment. You are again, ducking my point here because you have no answer. Playing with dools, playing on a swing are activities enjoyed by a wide range of age groups, and you know that too Amaar. Anyone who has teenaged children will tell you this! Also, you haven't discussed the rest. Women don't burst out into laughter Amaar? you are truely lost if you don't think so. What about the nurse/ is it not their job to take care of people, do they not wipe the faces of adults too/ Come on Amaar, it is about time you admit that these events prove nothing!
    In my original counter rebuttal I said the following:

    In conclusion I will end this counter rebuttal with this. Mr. Khan if we were to agree that Aisha was 6 when she married the prophet and about 10 when the marriage was consummated, we must realize one important factor. This type of marriage was common place in Arabia, as well as in Asia, Africa and Europe. We can’t apply today’s logic and understanding to the actions of a person who lived 1400 years ago. We must judge them by the laws and common practices of the times they lived in. in Muhammad’s time this was common place and was not illegal.
    Amaar Khan responded to my counter rebuttal, saying:
    True, that was not illegal at that time. You will have to accept that Mohammed was a crimanal and child abuser according to our modren definations.
    I then countered Amaar Khan, by saying the following:
    Any historian will tell you that you con't apply today's reasoning to events of the past to determine guilt or innocence. We must judge a man by the laws that were present at the time of the man's life. It was permitted during muhammad's life so he is not a criminal. You say it was not illegal at that time, so we can't possibly consider him a criminal. Muhammad is not living amongst us today so why or what sense does it make to judge him by today's laws?
    In my original counter rebuttal I said the following:
    Ali Sina says that Muslims use this as an excuse to pardon the actions of the prophet. Don’t misunderstand me here, I am not using this as an excuse. I am merely showing that this act was common place. The implications of this act must be addressed when speaking about Muslims, who emulate the prophet, living in today’s society. As I said earlier, Muslims living in ‘western’ nations can NOT participate in this kind of marriage because the act is illegal in most ‘western’ countries. We have to abide by the laws of the country we live in, as long as they do not come into direct conflict with the commandments of Allah. It is your job, Mr. Khan, to disprove this fact. As I have said earlier, if you can disprove this then you have a point. You have to show us that this type of marriage is a strict obligation, put upon ALL Muslim men. Until you can show us this, your argument holds no weight.
    Amaar Khan responded to my counter rebuttal, saying:
    I have no need to prove that it is obligatory in islam. I have proved what I was to prove that Mohammed is a child abuser.
    I then countered Amaar Khan, by saying the following:
    Once again, and without suprise, you have ducked my point again because you have no argument! you have to prove this point because it has implications in today's time and society. If it is obligatory, then you have a case, if it is not, you have no case.
    In my original counter rebuttal I said the following:
    I know that the opinion of many is that a man who is significantly older than a woman, should not be with that woman, but should look for a wife or companion that is closer in age. I hold this opinion to be true myself, but that does not make me any less or more a Muslim than someone who thinks otherwise. If the laws, here in Canada, for example, says a woman can consent to sex with a man at age 16, she can do so whether the man is 16, 18, 25, 40, or 60. A man who is older and does so, in this case, is not guilty of any crime, according to the laws of Canada, thus we should not label him a pedophile. Laws, like history evolve over time and we can not persecute a man who did an act that is illegal today, but was not illegal at the time of that mans action. Ali Sina and Amaar Khan have to take this fact into serious consideration before they assert their opinions. Instead of dealing with this fact, Ali Sina simply says it’s a way in which Muslims wiggle themselves out of a hard situation. Any notable historian would have no trouble in accepting this fact, but for some reason Ali Sina does!? These points are outlined on the following website http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage .
    Amaar Khan I must say that I do appreciate you taking the time to write on this subject. We both have busy schedules and it becomes hard for us to take time out of a busy day to do these things. We may have a difference of opinion, but at least we are both people who conduct themselves in a civilized manner. I await your response.
    Amaar Khan responded to my counter rebuttal, saying:
    Thanks for your response. You havent given any argument which have some weight. And frankly , I can not understand your phsychology. You are 31 living in indonesia.but have a very little knowledge about islam.i have given 27 direct ahadiths. And many other indirect ahadith showing ayesha’s small age. Proved by quran that there is no age limit in quran. Gave many fatawas by ulemas. But you have just given some copy paste material from islamic sites about age controversies. Still you are hung with the point that ayesha was not 9.
    I really can not understan. Whether you have vowed not to accept the truth or only want to win the debate.
    Ok
    I declared you as a winner of the debate . now please drink some cold water and think out that how can tons of evidence be wrong?
    I am going to end with “debate”
    But hope that you will be sharing you veiws with me
    Regards
    amaar
    I then countered Amaar Khan, by saying the following:
    i can understand why you would want to cut off the debate. It is okay Amaar. What you have shown me here is that you have nothing to counter with. All you do is repeat earlier statements and duck all my points because you have NO response. Good day to you sir, you just re-affirmed my devotion to Islam my friend.
    Amaar claims in his response that this is not a debate, thus he asked FFI not to publish it. I ask all of you, in all honesty in your hearts and minds, ‘is this is the case?’ It is obvious that this is a debate, the problem is that Amaar has no response for what I have put forward. I sent him my response to what he has said here and I have not gotten a response. I think that the members in here should ask FFI and Amaar Khan why they decided not to publish my counter rebuttal on this thread. If FFI and amaar have the truth and evidence, then it would be in their best interest to publish my counter rebuttal and respond to it PROPERLY, so that the matter could be resolved. Again, I leave it to the readers to read this and form their own opinions. I don’t expect to gain any allies in here but I know, as anyone who is unbiased knows, that the argument brought by Amaar Khan has no weight and he illustrated this point clearly by stopping the publication of my second rebuttal and his refusal to comment on my responses to what he said.
    Amaar khan, why are you hiding? Why are you trying your best to duck me and my argument?
    “The truth shall set you free, but it won't always make you happy FFI"

  27. Saadiq1977

    This response is for BustedDivinity

    I am not going to speak for anyone else in here bit I have not been to Africa I have traveled to many countries though. these include:

    Japan
    England
    France
    Malaysia
    Indonesia
    Jamaica
    Hong Kong
    USA
    Scotland

    i am here to tell you that the problem of older men taking much younger girls as wives is a world wide problem. It is not an Islamic problem, as people in here would have you think. Even in my birth country of Canada, this is happening amongst people who call themselves Sikhs, Hindus and Mormons! So i am not a 'westerner' who thinks the way you think i think. I know this is happening and have seen it in my travels.

    As for your claim, if the country adopts laws that say a girl can be legally married at age 12, then it is the law and we 'westerners' should not try to push our opinions down he troats of othes because we feel it is not right. It is legal in the country, so we should respect the laws of that country, even if we dont agree withthem ourselves. If these marriages are going on and the country's laws say it is illegal, then it is illegal and we have the right to voice our opinion.

    You say that it is considered 'unIslamic' for these girls to wait till they are 15 or 16. Can you show me where it states this in the Quran or Hadith? The problem here is not Islam, it's people trying to twist islam to push their agenda. I will gladly leave islam right now if you can show me where in the hadith or Quran it says implicitly that a girl who waits till 15 or 16 to marry is doing an unIslamic act.

    We don't live in a perfect world and if you are truely oncerned about this then voice the opinion of reformation in these countries, but don't blame islam for this, blame the innovations of man for these things. to end this i would like to quote to you a Hadith:

    Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: "A virgin came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and mentioned that her father had married her against her will, so the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) allowed her to exercise her choice. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 11, Number 2091)"

    Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: "About the Qur'anic verse: 'It is not lawful for you forcibly to inherit the woman (of your deceased kinsmen), nor (that) ye should put constraint upon them.' When a man died, his relatives had more right to his wife then her own guardian. If any one of them wanted to marry her, he did so; or they married her (to some other person), and if they did not want to marry her, they did so. So this verse was revealed about the matter. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 11, Number 2084)"

    We also read in the Quran the following:

    "O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"

    So BustedDivinity, forced marriage is forbidden in Islam and if these girls were forced, then the people responsible are NOT following Islam; they merely follow their desires.

    I hope this has been a help to you

  28. Saadiq1977

    Now let me deal with the reat of the people in here. i have not spoken to Steinburger so i do not accept his invite to modersate the debate. As far as i see it, if anyone offers their hand in this and they appeaar to be unbiased, the people in here will automatically disqualify him/her or resort to childish tactics, as displayed in here (saying Steinburger and i are the same person).

    So all i can say is read post number 61 carefully an see how Amaar Khans ducks my questions and tries his best to end the debate and not have it published here on FFI. i don't expect anyone in here to be unbiased (maybe 1 or 2) as all of you have come here for the sole purpose of bashing Islam.

    i saved the entire debate an will bring it to the attention of Ali Sina, himself. If he can answer, where Amaar has failed, then I welcome his opinion on the subject. i can take comfort in knowing that:
    I didn't contradict myself like Amaar
    I didn't duck questions, like Amaar
    I didn't ask FFI editors to block anything that was written, like Amaar

    So people, have a nice life, waste your time bashing islam if you want on this website and i bid all of you a farewell.

    Ali Sina, I'm coming for you next, but not on this site. We will have our day soon and i hope you post the entire coversation on this site, don't be like Amaar who tries to conceal his lack of understanding and embarassing defeat!

  29. skynightblaze

    @Saadiq1977

    Why do you think the hadiths that tell us about Muhhamad having sex with aisha at 9 are a lie?

  30. skynightblaze

    @Saadiq1977

    Bukhari and other hadith compilers recorded the age of aisha as 9 when Muhhamad had sex with her.How is that no muslim of those times opposed them if what they were writing were a lie?

    IF what bukhari said was not true do you think muslims during his times would promote his book for centuries to come? Would the muslims of today promote Ali sinas book for understanding muhhamad for say 1400 centuries to come as a source for understanding muhhamad? The answer is no !!

    This essentially means that Bukhari and the people of those times had the same knowledge of Aisha being 9 years old when she was taken to bed otherwise muslims of those times would not promote bukhari's book for ages to come as a source to understand muhhamad.

    Now its not possible that the entire generation of muslims in the 9 th century had mis information concerning Aisha ,an important figure of islams history . If there was a consensus among them about age of aisha she has to be 9 when the dirty old paedophile fucked her.

    Let us compare the case with today . Do you consider the events in the beginning of 19th century as false when we have common consensus on those issues? Would it be logical to say for people after 1400 years that we(the generation of 2000) had misinformation of the events of the beginning of the 19 th century like world war 1 ?

  31. Saadiq1977

    For skynightblaze

    Have you read the entire debate i had? If you did you would have seen several points I made. I played the other side and said if Aisha was 9 years old at the time of consumation, then there is no crime, since it was legal for men, at that time to engage in such marriages.

    The FFI asserts that Muslims believe muhammad was the best example for mankind. I being muslim agree with this statement. The FFi contends that if this is so, then this type of mariage by a Muslim man in today's society is an act of peadophilia. To this i have said that in todays time, and even in times past it was a Muslims obligation to abide by the laws of the country he/she is/was living in. So, if the law OF THE COUNTRY SAYS A WOMAN MUST BE AT LEAST 16, a Muslim man must wait till the law allows him to engage in marriage and consumation of that marriage until the woman is 16. If we are in Mexico, Cyprus or philippines, for example, where the LEGAL age of sexual activity for a woman is 12, a Muslim man can marry her and consumate the marriage because it is allowed by the law.

    Here is an example, i stated in the debate, in the USA. In indiana and iowa the minimum age limit for woman to have sex, without legal actions being taken against the man is 14 years old. So if a man marries a woman in indiana or iowa, and she is 14, then the marriage and consumation of that marriage is LEGAL. But, if the same man went to Clifornia or New york and did the same thing, he would be arrested because the age limit is set at 16 years of age.

    So, i have a question for you, and all others in the room, including Amaar and Ali Sina. If a man marries a woman in iowa and she is 14 years old & if that newly married couple moved to New york, would the District Attorney of New York prosecute the man because he has a 14 year old bride? No, because the circumstances under which the man got maried were LEGAL. Now, if we look to Muhammad, can we say he is a peadophile because he married a young girl, and that marriage was LEGAL? If you said NO for the the first senario, you must say NO for the second senario. this is what Ali Sina and Amaar have to answer to and so far they have failed to address this. We can't use today's understanding of law and understanding and apply it to people who livd 1400 years ago, as we can't apply the laws of new york to man who married a 14 year old girl in iowa, where it is legal.

    I hope you see where i am going with this

  32. skynightblaze

    @Saadiq1977

    Thanks for responding.Your line of thinking is that Muhhamad followed the norms of the society as anyone would do and hence he cant be blamed as different societies have different norms and hence what is acceptable to one society may not be acceptable to the other however you cant say what he did wasnt evil just because different people view it differently.

    It is only that the society didnt think it as evil although it was a pure evil. Child marriage and child sex are certain sins and they have been proven harmful by science and psychologists. WE understand this because of education today unlike people of the past . We have proofs that those acts are evil. So we certainly know that Muhhamad did commit an evil and now the only question that is left is should we blame Muhhamad for it considering the circumstances (as it was a norm those days) in which the society was Thats the question. I have presented a case below . See it.

    Considering the circumstances in the society ordinary man can be excused but not in a case of a man who claimed to be a prophet of GOD. If Muhhamad followed the same evils as that of the society then what is the difference between him and ordinary men?

    As a prophet of GOD shouldnt he be different from them when it comes to morality? Instead of following the same evils that the society practiced he should have rejected and set an example for the others.

    It would be foolish to say that Muhhamad too wasnt aware of this evil when he was a prophet of GOD. IF he was a prophet of GOD then GOD would have guided him to the right path but instead we have hadiths telling that GOD showed Aisha to him and it was GOds wish that he marry her .Now how come GOD too isnt aware of evils like child marriage and child sex ?

    Again i repeat ordinary men can be excused because they lived as per the norms of the society and they committed a sin unknowingly because society wasnt developed that time and people didnt have the knowledge as we have today and hence ordinary men committing the sin of paedophilia is acceptable because they did out of ignorance but it would be foolish to say that GOD and his prophet also were unaware of it and they too committed this sin unknowingly.however if we consider muhhamad as an ordinary arab just like others and not a prophet of GOD then he can be excused.

    More ever how can this man be called a USWA HASANA in that case? If you try to emulate him today you would land yourself in jail.

  33. faithinOne

    Dear Brother Saadiq andAmar Khan,

    To brother Amar- I admire your persistence albeit you have to admit that you have terribly contradicted yourself throughout the debate (if we may call it so) For any meaningful debate there has to be a premise within which it has to be discussed. Also we have to understand that a debate can never be meaningful if it falls victim to a stated mindset. I have read this thread in its entirety. It is pointless to mention the fact that you did ask FFI to refrain from publishing your counter rebuttal. However, since this interaction was recorded by brother Saadiq on this comment section we see the deceptive and nagging tactics of holding the whole debate hostage to your perceived notion.

    Nevertheless, it is important to mention that you seem to have tirelessly argued over the age of an individual in order to question the credibility of an individual’s character based on this comparatively modern notion of pedophilia. The term as I understand was coined in 1886 by the Viennese psychiatrist Richard von Krafft-Ebing. I do not intend to defend the authenticity of this fact as stated i. But despite this information being right or wrong my commonplace understanding gives me the liberty to think of this as a relatively modern notion or concept.

    This word pedophilia is actually very tactfully used by the haters of Islam to present the Prophet’s character in a demonic guise as understood in our current moral perception. It denotes a form of abuse and thus appeals to them as the unraveling of ‘the scandal’ in Islam.. If any objective person is approached in this issue he would term this as an issue of child marriage which definitely is open to discussion. This unnecessary use of the term pedophilia throughout this website may sadly just be an outpouring of these individual’s personal preferences. I always feel this debate is meaningless because the intention of the critics is to show our Prophet in the worst possible light. They feel that cultivating these false perceptions they can debunk Islam.

    However, over these 1400 plus years after the prophet hood Islam’s enemy have continuously attacked our prophet. Even during his lifetime accusations of a madman, and poet etc were leveled against him No matter how many faults people try and find in its bearer or its content the message of truth survives and thrives. At the time people according to their cultural understanding and logical acceptance demanded miracles and appearance of angels from the Prophet. ‘But the allusion to, this and the preceding "conditions" is not merely historical: it illustrates a widely prevalent, psychologically contradictory attitude of mind -a strange mixture of prima-facie scepticism and primitive credulity which makes belief in a prophetic message dependent on the prophet's "performing miracles" The Quran states-
    18:110 Say [O Prophet]: "I am but a mortal man like all of you. It has been revealed unto me that your God is the One and Only God. Hence, whoever looks forward [with hope and awe] to meeting his Sustainer [on Judgment Day], let him do righteous deeds, and let him not ascribe unto anyone or anything a share in the worship due to his Sustainer!"

    These criticisms continue to date but as each are crushed under reason and understanding the haters plot a new scheme judging history in light of their ever changing morality and societal norms of today. I think brother Saadiq has definitely cleared away from this very legitimate view point that any Muslim holds as his understanding of events back then. But essentially towards the end of his discussion we see that it finally does end up on this note. It is actually the nature of this allegation that demands it assessment in light of the time in which it is being made. Hence, given Brother Saadiq’s enduring effort of not to unnerve the critics much earlier during the discussion I feel he has further validated this logical viewpoint. I hope if the decent few that do come on this site would never use this as a trump card to fan controversy by prolonging these debates. I have been visiting this site for quite sometime and I have realized that much of the people who engage in ridicule and some instances of genuine opinion articulation are from the sub-continent or at least Asian back ground. I believe if they honestly look back in at the marriage age of their grandparents or great grand parents they will be able to infer and deduce the cultural acceptability of marriage at a young age. These factors vary within different geographies and have been practiced by all faiths. Brother Saadiq did discuss this factor more articulately and I feel after such a detailed explanation it would be grave injustice to haggle over the same. Finally it makes us no better Muslim if we break the law of our land and defy our prevailing cultural norm. It is the wish of the haters of Islam to deceive the people keen about Islam and keep them engaged in the trivial arguments of age of marriage. They fear that an individual’s free and unbiased thinking and research into Islam has the power of calling people to truth. They thus play with the abhorrent and indiscriminate use of the term terrorist for their misrepresented concept of Jihad and pedophilia for customary marriages of the time. We cannot change your belief nor we intend to do so. I can only request these people to undo the ropes of hatred and stop this offending lie. The quran beautifully states in Surah al Araf –
    7:26 O CHILDREN of Adam! Indeed, We have bestowed upon you from on high [the knowledge of making] garments to cover your nakedness, and as a thing of beauty: but the garment of God-consciousness is the best of all. Herein lies a message from God, so that man might take it to heart

  34. Komal

    Hey I forgot about this long ago … Lemme read the funny reply of Sadiq …
    Must be fun to see how ppl make a fool outta themselves in the name of
    Islam

  35. Saadiq1977

    First to Komal,

    So you have read the thread and NO response? I guess you, like others had nothing to say after reading the debate in its entirity. It is indeed shameful that Amar, and FFI tried to block it but I have it all recorded. I have exposed Amar Khan for what he really is; a man with NO certain knowledge.

    Next to faithinOne

    i am certainly glad to see one who is objective in here. Others , like Steinburger, have been objective and these sick people have chased him away. I went back to Amaar's original article, that sparked this debate and i saw something there i didn't notice before…he isn't the only author of that article, although he takes credit for it. So I off my challenge to the others who hand in publishing the article. Also, I have tried to contact Ali Sina on Facebook for comment and challenge but he has NOT responded to me. I have saved a very intresting conversation between Ali Sina and myself that i will post here real soon (it exposes the man for who he rally is).

    Lastly, Skynightblaze

    Muhammad was a MAN, he was not GOD. He was a man who was guided by God to bring the message of Islam to the people. Being a man, means of course, having humanly desires. He married Aisha at a young age because it was the norm at the time but you missed my point. It is the job of the FFI to show us how intrinsic this act of marriage is on today's Muslims. As i have said before, this type of marriage is not an obligation or a compulsion put upon all Muslim men. If it were, then the FFI woul have a valid case, but even they know it is not. This is the missing link to this whole argument my friend and the FFi has purposly ducked this and discarded it because it dissolves their points. When loking at history we have to look at the implications history has on today's society and since this type of marriage is not a strict obligation upon all Muslim men, it has NO bearing on today's Muslims. The reason this type of marriage is seen in the hadith is because it teaches us a lesson. that lesson is that if you are living in a country where the legal age limit to marry and consumate a marriage is 12, like in Mexico and Philippines, then Islamic accordance allows you to do so freely, but if you live in a country where the age limit is higher, like Canada and the UK where the age is 16, you must wait till the woman has reached the legal age limit before you can marry her. This is what i have ben saying from the beginning and notice how Amar ducks this and tries to steer the debate in another direction.

    I still await Amaar's response. He knows I have posted the entire debate here and he is still hiding somewhere in Pakistan. Amarr, when will you answer for your…
    1. weak argument
    2. contradictions
    3. blocking the entire debate from publication on this site

    I am waiting….

  36. Allahmiyan

    For Inhuman Muslims like MoHamMad,the age of the girl or any Woman does not matter. What a Muslim male wants is just a hole to thrust his dirty dick in, Sunnah after all what matters for any Muslim Pig. Evil Sunnah of their pedophile Prophet MoHamMad. Read the following—link

    "Thighing" is an Islamic practice still followed today even in Muslim communities in the U.S. and Britain:

    Regarding the practice of "thighing", the masterbating between the legs of a female infant or actually sodomizing her, Islamic clerics have this to say:

    Pedophilia decrees from http://www.islamic-fatwa.net

  37. Allahmiyan

    The best way to find some proof about my previous statement, ask our Islamic rabid dog Aka "James Gand 007" She is the right Muslimah to tell us the facts about Islamic Pedophilia and Sodomy from her personal experience ( I mean Childhood trauma ) if at all the Muslimas think that's a Trauma? Ha Ha Ha Ha

  38. BustedDivinity.

    This Saadiq guy has confirmed my opinion on anybody trying some apologetics on the pedophilia issue in Islam, IMO "one must be highly disingenuous" whenever he/she tries to right the wrong in the pedophillic crime, Saadiq knows fully well that the most acceptable Hadiths reported Aisha's age at 9, heck am sure the guy could easily tell other people to stick with the Bukhari and Muslim type Hadiths, but at the same time when it comes to the pedophilia issue he will want to confuse the authenticity of the said Hadiths by bringing in lesser alternatives, is this double standard, selfishness or simply a confused way of thinking?

    The second less than reality type approach to this (only for the demented mind) type crime by the mental gymnast is the time difference high jump, in this event, the lame apologists will say time differs, so girls' physical development changes, well this shows that they are not co-ordinated in thoughts, the sunnah is for all time, if Mohammad did it, then the Muslim of the year 3000 should also do it (though I hope Islam will be in the museum by then), surely no medal is going the way of these lowest of the low gymnasts.

  39. Ibn Kammuna

    Mr. Saadiq,
    Can you please forget about defending or not defending Islam on Pedophilia. Can you please step out and look objectively about what you presented above, and compare to what Mr. Khan presented..You had pretty much secondary sources. He had 27 different quotes from authentic sources..So, now tell me: do you still think you won the debate? Please be fair to yourself and to Mr. Khan.
    I will tell you one thing though. I read the whole thing. Mr. Amaar Khan won the debate, no questions asked. I am sure most, if not all readers, will tell you the same thing. Peace

  40. ibrahim

    An interesting info for Indians on this Forum, Barrack Hussein Obama has declared that he will be ending the off shoring of jobs to India. The evil man has shown his ugly face once again. While Jorge Bush might have made some mistakes, he was no evil man and was a friend of India's But this Barrack guy, wants to snuggle unto Hizbullah and Al Qaeda.
    Shame on all the Americans who voted for this two faced serpent who is a narcissist bum.

  41. [...] bookmarks tagged faith no more Pedophilia: Amaar Khan vs Saadiq Mohammad » Faith… saved by 4 others     FlyerStormer bookmarked on 02/25/09 | [...]

  42. Halalpork786

    Islam is all about Sex , perverted Sex; I wonder what is wrong about that? What else a cult like Islam can do without Sex? Human beings and animal alike need Sex. Sexual perversion is a different thing. But the fact is all Cults like Islam and Christianity depend on sex for their survival. Sex is a bare necessity for the survival of any Cult or for that matter any society.

    But sexual perversion is typically part of all Cults like Islam and Christianity.

  43. ibrahim

    Sadiq

    we won't trust anything that you give to us, Ali Sina is not our prophet that his judgement will be final and abiding on us.
    We are free thinking people here, and I will never trust any1 you bring for discussion, even if Ali Sina agrees to him.

  44. Komal

    @ Sadiq … Tell me one thing Can't u see everything is from authentic sources(no one here made it up) ? Y are you trying so hard …. Y look like a fool to every1 ??? Y not just accept the FACT as it is ?

  45. rationalist

    Sadiq is finding it hard to digest that his arguments are a total failure. Muslims protected the image of their Pedophile prophet for so long. But not anymore. The arrival of internet has destroyed Islam and Mohammad for good. I have forwarded this debate to at least 200 friends, including Muslims. They will have forwarded it to many more. It is a chain. There will come a time when all non-Muslims will associate pedophilia with Muhammad, whenever his name comes up.

  46. Mavan

    Saadiq bro,

    I dont see any reason why you think you have scored any points in this debate. Amaar has a well researched article providing dozens of quotations from authentic sources. On the other hand, you not only could not provide any authentic source, but instead cited some Mohammed Ali or modern apologists as evidence. You would have to bribe a third party heavily to give the verdict in your favour, Even if you should find an authentic hadith reference you must still explain how they override the numerous references( regarding the age of Aiysha) given by Amaar.

    Before proceeding further, please clarify what are the sources you accept as evidence. I think it is of primary importance that the two sides accept certain common sources for the debate to make any sense. If you accept only the quran and the words of modern apologists, then how are you going to find the contexts for the contextless quran? Are you going to say that non quranic sources are valid only if they are "nice looking"?

    The debate is only of academic importance, Even if you succeed in proving that Aiysha's age was 15 or more, you should still think over the matter. Winning or losing the debate is not everything. She is still very much like his grand daughter. A few years here and there does not change facts,

  47. ibrahim

    Sadiq you need some rest after this fiasco. Afterall its not everyday that you get to see the truth, considering that you are a Muslim. You need time to come out of the first glare that the truth has put into your eyes.

  48. focussed

    and yet muslims will try to justify that beating is supposed to be light when their allah's favorite gay partner "mad mo" caused pain to the child. He plays mind games with a kid and yet muslims will not accept that mad mo was a crazy lunatic.

  49. BustedDivinity.

    focussed

    That's a good focus on things man, a 9yr old is surely going to be devastated both physically and mentally from the any careless old man with a wicked sexual agenda, too bad some humans aren't humane enough to say it is wrong when and where fit.

  50. samir

    again a good dispaly of pedo mo logic adopted by his cultist. Saadiq Muhammad simply doesn't reply or nicely avoids the point put here.
    1. Where is the low age limit? This guy answers with laws of other countries. We don't want laws from the present day countries, but the reference in gods manual delivered by mo. Less than age of menses means nothing to Saadiq Muhammad. Instead of going to madarasa go to real school. Instead of quaran, open book of mathematics and logic.
    2. If we agree Saadiq Muhammad's logic that menses are the decisive point for marriage and mentioned in quaran, then Issue a fatwa against Saadiq Muhammad and stone him to death. Menses are now happening at lower ages. Quaran is written 620AD and women those days used to have menses at later age. This means quaran is not suitable at this age. It is not the final message of god and mo is not final prophet and not valid till doomsday.

  51. Ibn Kammuna

    Mr. Saadiq
    I am a university scholar myself. Does that make you feel better when i tell you you lost the debate? In fact some of my published research in my field of expertise, is quoted by other researchers and was built upon. So, now tell me, why do I need to go to Harvard or any other place to judge that you lost the debate. I am a university professor myself. Will you accept my judgement when I tell you you lost the debate for good. What more than Ayesha herself telling you in many authentic hadiths that she was six years old when she got married? Would a Harvard scholar change that, just because he/she is from Harvard? You really need to wake up man. One has to be objective a little bit about things.

  52. proudkafir

    Every moslem from the subcontinent dreams of marrying off his daughter aged 6 to an old syphilitic old Arab cretin to earn brownie points from the pimp allah.
    The rasool showed them the way forwards

  53. skynightblaze

    @Saadiq1977

    How can you say Muhhamad was guided by GOD when GOd was the one who showed him Aisha? Would GOD prescribe an evil like child marriage? IT is clear that muhhamad made the story to satisfy his lusts.I could have agreed with you had Muhhamad been an ordinary arab. Finally you say that islam gives you the freedom to follow the laws of the respective countries. Thats an obvious lie. Quran sanctions paedophilia and it allows you to have sex with under age girls. Cant believe??? Here is the article by one of the FFI members Khalil Fariel .Please go through it.
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/01/01/quran-sanc

  54. imran

    Does it mentioned in any of the scriptures about the minimum age of girls for marriage?

  55. jcforfaith

    It is clear that according to the Quran quotes; pedophilia is allowed by the Quran. Where has our sensitivity gone? Young women (and young men for that matter) are not ready for sex by the age of 16! Why would you ever defend the marrying of adults with children Mr. Mohammad?

    I find it interesting that Mr. Mohammad chose to go outside of Islam to answer a question which had parameters within the sector of Islam and the Quran- and thus did not need the consulting of any democratic or liberal nations' guidelines for "consentual sex" in order to be answered.

    In the U.S. and most other nations listed in the arguments; (except for Denmark) If an adult has sex with a minor who is at the age of consent then that adult is guilty of statutory rape because he/she may not give the minor permission to have the sex with him/her. Furthermore you'll hardly see adults giving their children permission to marry adults here in the U.S. or in most of those nations listed above- much less to have sex with them!

    In the U.S. there are some states which have antiquated laws such as that a fourteen year old or a sixteen year old may marry an adult much older than him or her yet this law is treated with contempt. We call this "pedophilia."

    Where I come from there's a law that a man may beat his wife on the courthouse steps on Sunday.. but no one does it because he would be jailed for assault if he did it. However; I strongly doubt that there would be much of a fuss made by the ruling elite of an Islamic country if a man has sex with a child there. They are more concerned with the subjugation of mankind and the hoarding of wealth than the welfare of the people.

    However.. the question was not "Do liberal nations allow pedophilia?" The question was whether Islam allows pedophilia and the answer appears to be yes.

  56. Azhar Khan

    As a muslim this is pretty disturbing information, it leaves one asking if Mohammad should be forgiven considering the circumstances of his time period….which for a religious figure I can't but help but say no. He is to help decide timeless moral standards and marrying a girl almost 50 years his junior at the age of 9 does not show a high level of moral standards.

    Why Allah would put that dream in his head is even more disturbing and puts in question the trustworthiness of Muhammad.

  57. Sanity

    WIKIPEDIA HADITH.

    ITS JUST STUFF PEOPLE SAID HAPPENED AFTER IT HAD ALREADY HAPPENED. ITS NOT AUTHENTIC IN ANY WAY. THE ONLY REASON YOU CAN EVER DEBATE IS BY USING THIS GREY AREA WHICH THE MUSLIMS ALREADY KNOW AS SUCH. SO TO A MUSLIM THIS ENTIRE WEBSITE IS A BUNCH OF CRAPPY ARGUMENTS BASED ON NOTHING.

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