FaithFreedom.org

Debate with convert Donald Morgan part 4

Part 1 of this debate is here
Part 2 is here
Part 3 is hare

Donald Morgan

According to the DSM an NPD sufferer chooses people of high status to be part of their inner circle of friends or companions. They also look at people ‘below’ them as being worthless. The DSM also states that these people are so arrogant, they treat others like dirt. What I would like to do now is illustrate that Muhammad does not fit this profile. To do so I will speak shortly about slavery. Slavery at the time of Muhammad was widely accepted all over the world. Although Muhammad came short of forbidding the practice, he has shown great sympathy to the enslaved and encouraged his followers to free them. Muhammad had set an example himself when he freed a slave called Zayd ibn Harithah. Zayd later became a trusted companion of Muhammad. One early biography relates Muhammad as having said that “he (Zayd b. Harithah) was one of the dearest to me of all men. (Karim D. Crow, “Facing One Qiblah: Legal and Doctrinal Aspects of Sunny and Shi’ah Muslims”, 2005, p. 143, Ibex Publishers, ISBN 9971-77-552-2) The question must be asked here; ‘does this act of compassion fit the profile of one who suffers from NPD? Not only did Muhammad promote freeing slaves, he set one of his own slaves free and referred to that slave as being ‘dearest’ to him (Muhammad). Does this sound like a man who chooses only high profile people to be part of his inner circle? Does this sound like a man who treats others like dirt? The obvious answer is no, so what can we learn from this? Simply put, again, Muhammad does not fit the profile of an NPD sufferer. Also, if we look at another close friend and companion to Muhammad, Billal, we see the same thing. Billal was an African, black slave who was later freed and accepted Islam, joining the prophet. Billal was the first person to perform the call to prayer, a ritual that is still practiced today.

 

Ali Sina

What we can learn from this story is that you did not read my book. You are so confident of the cult that you have embraced that you don’t think anyone who opposes it may have a point. So why bother reading what you already know better? Your brain is at peace brother. That is what we learn from the above story. But that is foolish. You have an eternity to keep your brain in peace. Right now you have to make it work.

Before I tell you about Muhammad’s haughtiness and his disdain for lowly people, let me debunk your claim that he was against slavery.

Muhammad was never against slavery. Zeid was his adopted son. Both Muhammad’s sons, Qasim and Abd al Menaf (named after idol Menaf) died at infancy. An Arab without a son was a man with no honor. As added humiliation he had four daughters. In fact Muhammad thought it is denigrating to have daughters and an insult to attribute daughters to Allah. “What! For you the males and for Him the females! This indeed is an unjust division!” He wrote in the Qur’an, 53:19-22. That is why he adopted Zeid as his son. This was out of expedience and for status and not out of goodness of his heart. Later, when he lusted after Zeid’s wife Zeinab, he made his Allah reveal a verse to annul the institution of adoption and said, I am not the father of any of your men. (Q. 33:40)

The claim that Muhammad was against slavery is preposterous. Muhammad raided town after town and after killing unarmed men took as slaves their children and their wives in such numbers that one day when Aisha broke her oath she manumitted forty of them in expiation. You can imagine how many slaves did she have to manumit forty in one go and how many slaves other wives of Muhammad inherited and how many the rest of marauding Muslims received as their shares of the booty? Tens of thousands of free people were reduced to slavery by Muhammad and his followers. All the slaves brought to America were purchased from Muslim slave makers. Slavery has not ended yet among Muslims and it will be back if Muslims become the majority again. So take your charade that Muhammad “just came short of abolishing slavery” elsewhere. That brute was the biggest slave maker and slave trader of history.

In page 13 of Understanding Muhammad I wrote:

Muhammad was cognizant that his followers were mostly meek and lowly. To boost his prestige he needed someone of stature to embrace his cause. Ibn Ishaq narrates: “Whenever men came together at the fairs, or the apostle heard of anyone of importance coming to Mecca, he went to them with his message.” [Sirat, Ibn Ishaq page. 195] The chroniclers also tell us that Muhammad rejoiced immensely when Abu Bakr and then Omar enlisted in his cause. The conversion of Abu Talib would have elevated his prestige among his uncles and the Quraish, the tribe that resided within Mecca and were custodians of the Ka’ba, giving him the credibility and status he so desperately craved. Instead, the dying man smiled and said he would rather die in the faith of his forefathers. Thus, with his hopes dashed, Muhammad walked out of the room murmuring: “I wanted to pray for him, but Allâh stopped me from doing so.”[Life of Muhammad, Muir Vol 2 p.195]

Page 192-193.

He Frowned

Islamic societies are dysfunctional, patriarchal, misogynous and dictatorial. Not only are women mistreated, children are often abused, beaten and humiliated. Consequently they grow up scarred, have low self esteem, fancy thoughts of grandiosity and evince symptoms of pathological narcissism.

During my youth I had an Afghani friend who had all these characteristics. One day he told me he wanted to “become a Hitler.” Hitler is a popular figure in Islamic countries. I was annoyed with that stupid remark and after giving him a piece of my mind walked away from him. Fearing to lose my friendship, the next day he came to me and said that the night before he dreamt of the Prophet scolding him and telling him that he should become a “spiritual Hitler”. This ridiculous behavior typifies the pathological thinking of a narcissist. Narcissists are master manipulators. They are always one step ahead of you. There is an interesting chapter in the Quran, called ‘Abasa, (He Frowned) which shows Muhammad had the same pathological mindset.

The very early Muslims were mostly slaves or rebellious youths in their teens with no social standing. Muhammad was aware that in order to be taken seriously he must enlist influential people in his cause. Abu Bakr’s conversion is owed to Khadijah’s influence. As far as he was concerned, if an important woman like Khadijah had accepted Islam, it must be true. Once Abu Bakr converted, it became easier for Umar to convert and so on. In logic this is called argumentum ad or appeal to authority. This is a fallacy that uses admiration of an important person to prove the validity of an assertion. Muslims resort to this fallacy often.

During the early years of his mission, Muhammad was sitting among the dignitaries of Mecca trying to convince them of his claim. One of his followers, a blind poor man named Ibn Umm Maktum, approached him with a question. Muhammad disliked his interruption and frowned. Those sitting around him noticed his contempt. They criticized him for his hypocrisy and double standard. There was no way for Muhammad to get out of this embarrassing situation by making Allâh approve his snobbishness. The next day he claimed to have received a sura in which Allâh rebuked him for ignoring the blind man while trying to impress the rich. 

He frowned and turned (his) back, Because there came to him the blind man.
And what would make you know that he would purify himself,
Or become reminded so that the reminder should profit him?
As for him who considers himself free from need (of you),
To him do you address yourself.
And no blame is on you if he would not purify himself
And as to him who comes to you striving hard,
And he fears,
From him will you divert yourself.
Nay! Surely it is an admonishment.
So let him who pleases mind it.
In honored books,
Exalted, purified,
In the hands of scribes. (Q. 80: 1-15)

In these verses Muhammad is taking the blame and even making Allâh admonish him for his condescendence. Nonetheless, as a narcissist that he was even in this sura he ended up blaming his detractors even more. From verse 17 onward, he pours his venomous vituperation on those who disbelieved him.

Although this sura is another indication of Muhammad’s narcissism, Muslims do not see it that way. They have fallen prey to his manipulations hook, line and sinker and think that this sura is evidence of his sincerity. Far from it; this should only be seen as damage control. Muhammad had no other choice but to take the blame. How can you blame one who has already taken it?

 

Donald Morgan

Also, the call to Islam Muhammad made attracted what type of people? According to Karen Armstrong, in her book titled ‘Islam’, the early followers of Muhammad were the poor and disenfranchised (with the exception given to Abu Bakr Siddiq and Khadijah). Again, if a person suffering from NPD aspires to have people of high rank or status be part of his inner circle of friends or companions, his message would have appealed to that type of person. Muhammad’s message appealed to the poor, sick and weak amongst the Arabs because it was a message of liberation. This is why a vast majority of those who first accepted Islam were poor, disenfranchised people, not people of wealth, status and power. As a matter of fact, those with wealth, status and power, the Quaraish of Makkah tried to stop Muhammad’s message by any means necessary. 

Ali Sina

I already refuted the charade that Muhammad was interested in the poor. He was disdainful of them. However, those were the people he could fool, but his eyes were set on prominent people. The ignorant people of Mecca, consisting of slaves and the rebellious youths were the only ones who listened to his asinine message without asking for proof. Intelligent people laughed at him. Things have not changed since then. Even today, it’s the convicts, the prisoners, some fools and some inexperienced youths who convert to Islam. Intellectuals born and raised in Islam are leaving this cult of stupidity in droves.

Now, let’s talk about the message of ‘liberation’. Yes Muhammad told the slaves to escape the services of their masters and to the youths he said they should obey Allah and his messenger and not their own infidel parents.(Q.9:23) Was this a message of liberation or was he an agent provocateur and a disrupter of social order? Had Muhammad not raided so many towns and not enslaved so many people, one could have given him the benefit of doubt that perhaps he was against slavery. But his own actions prove that he was not at all against slavery. He reduced tens of thousands of free people into slaves and enriched himself by trading them. So what liberation are you talking about?

 

Donald Morgan ns

If one looks to the Quran, as it regards to Muhammad, one would find something unexpected. There are parts in the Quran that correct Muhammad, meaning Muhammad did something and a later revelation came forth that corrected his action. One such example can be found in chapter 9, verse 43. It states the following:

‘May Allah forgive you (O Muhammad) Why did you grant them leave , until those who told the truth were seen by you in clear sight, and you had known the liars’

It is Ali Sina’s contention that the Quran was Muhammad’s own manufacture. So let me play the devil’s advocate here. If I were to agree with Ali Sina about this (and believe me I don’t) and the Quran was Muhammad’s manufacture; if he suffered from NPD would he have written a passage like this? According to the DSM he would not. According to the DSM a person suffering from NPD always craves compliment and praise, as well as being arrogant. This passage from the Quran does not praise or compliment Muhammad, it chastises him for an action he did. If Muhammad suffered from NPD he would not have entered such a passage into the Quran, as it illustrates the fact that he is not always right in his decision making.

Ali Sina

Had you read my book you would not have made this comment. I already explained the mind game that narcissists play. We can see plenty of these manipulative games in the Quran. The sura Abbasa, described above is one such example, the other is when Zeid told Muhammad that he will divorce his wife. Muhammad responded, “Keep your wife to yourself, and fear Allâh.” (Q.33:37) Soon after Zeid left, the remembrance of Zeinab’s ruby lips, her soft thighs and her firm breasts awoke Muhammad’s Allâh residing under his tunic who revealed a verse admonishing him for fearing the criticism of the people instead of giving in to his desires.  

You did hide in yourself that which Allâh will make manifest, you did fear the people whereas Allâh had a better right that you should fear Him. So when Zaid had accomplished his desire from her (i.e. divorced her), We gave her to you in marriage, so that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the believers in respect of (the marriage of) the wives of their adopted sons when the latter have no desire to keep them. And Allâh’s Command must be fulfilled. (Q.33: 37)

There is also Sura Tahrim, where Muhammad forbids Maiyah the slave girl of Hafsa to himself when the daughter of Omar finds him in bed with that pretty girl. Then again we see Allah admonishing Muhammad telling him:

“O Prophet! Why do you ban (for yourself) that which Allâh has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? And Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Allâh has already ordained for you (O men), the dissolution of your oaths. And Allâh is your Maula (Lord, or Master, or Protector, etc.) and He is the All-Knower, the All-Wise. (Q.66:1-5)

I told you about the story of my Afghani friend who said he dreamt the prophet scolding him for wanting to become a Hitler and advised him to become a “spiritual Hitler.” Now if one is stupid enough to believe my Afghani friend, then one is stupid enough to believe in all these admonitions that Muhammad received from Allah. That is the game narcissists platy to fool the gullible into believing that they are honest. Since your brain is resting in peace you happily fall for these tricks.

This is exactly how narcissists manipulate and fool the gullible. Of course narcissists take the blame. When the buffoon O = Zero was asked about his involvement with the criminal Tony Rezko, what did he say? He immediately said, I am going to make mistakes once in a while. By taking the blame he disarmed his critics.  Those who do not know narcissism think this is the sign of his honesty because he admits to his errors readily, without realizing that they have been just fooled by him again.

Little knowledge is dangerous. Because most people have little knowledge of narcissism they can be easily fooled by narcissists like Muhammad, Hitler, Mussolini and Obama. Now everyone agrees that Hitler was a narcissist. I have convinced many that Muhammad was also a narcissist and more and more people are beginning to see that Zero is also a narcissist. BTW, Dr. Vaknin was the first to notice Zero is a narcissist. Once the world comes to see that, Vaknin will become a household name. Those who prefer to keep their heads in the sand will have a rude awakening. Some people just don’t wake up until it is too late and the house is on fire.

What you describe above is a classic narcissistic behavior. Muhammad’s whole game was to portray himself as a messenger of Allah. By making people believe in this lie he could do anything and all he had to do was to make his hidden alias override what he had said and done and wash his hands from all blame. How convenient, eh!  In fact the best way to make people think Allah and you are not one and they same is to make Allah admonish you, not too harshly, but just enough to fool the gullibe that He is not your own fabrication.

For examole, you can say, I wanted to pray for my uncle, I am grateful for all he did for me, but Allah did not let me do it.

I am a man of my words. I was going to honor the treaty that I signed at Hudaibiyyah, but Allah sent me the Sura Deliverance, delivering me from keeping my words and told me that I should break my covenants with infidles. (Q. 9:1)

I never lie. If I change some of the verses of the Quran, it’s becasue Allah changes his mind and sends me better verses. (Q.2:106)  Also sometimes Satan whispers some verses into my ears that I think they are from Allah, but they are Satanic verses. So Allah corrects me.

I told my son Zeid to keep his wife and fear Allah, but Allah scolded me badly for that and ordered me to have sex with my son’s wife. He admonished me and said, oh you nougthy man, were you trying to hide what was in your heart when We wanted it to be manifest? You are not the father of any of these men, but the seal and last prophet, and adoption is abomination.(Q.33:37-40)

I swore by God and promised to my wives not to sleep with Mariyah, the pretty maid of Hafsa again, and I wanted to keep my word, but Allah was very, very angry at me when he heard that, particularly for denying myself what my heart desired, just to please my wives. Allah admonished me and said in the harshest tone that I should fear HIM only and not my wives. (Q.66:1-5) I am a God fearing obedient slave of Allah. How can I say no to Him when He orders me to have sex with my daughter in law or with the slave girl of my wife? He gets sooo angry when I deny pleasure to myself? 

I wanted to follow the Quran and limit the number of my wives to four, but Allah told me I can marry any number of women and whomever I like “so there should be no difficulty for me.” As you know “Allah is oft-forgiving and merciful.” But of course, he told me, ”this is only for you [Oh Muhammad] and not for the believers at large.” (33:49-50)

Now my loyal friend Abu Bakr, I swear by the spirit of my mother who is burnig in hell because she died before I become a prophet and therefore an infidle that I was not looking at your baby Aisha. Do I look like a pedophile?  An angel showed her to me in a dream wrapped in a silken linen. At first I said, no, no, no, this is not right, and ran away. But the angel came back a second time holding Aisha in his arm. He removed her nappy so I can see her naked baby butt. I feared Allah and had no other choice but to say, “if it is from Allah, then it must happen.” Now you my friend and companion, the one who wittnessed to the truth of my claim of ascending to heaven and whom I called Sadiq (truthful), are you going to dispute with Allah and risk becoming a liar?  Bukhari 9.87.140

 

Come on Muslims!  You are not stupid. I am sure you feel embarassed of Muhammad. Why do you want to defend him? Believe me the followers of no other faiths have to defend their prophets of perversity all the times like you have to. No one can say these darn things about Jesus, Buddha, Zoroaster, Krishna, or any prophet. It’s only Muslims who have to make all these intellectual acrobatics to defed an indefensible. But that makes you look silly or mayeb even stupid. You don’t owe anything to that crook. He was just an impostor no better than Jim Jones or other men who conned many people.

I am sure you can think rationally. Or is it my wishful thinking? That includes you the deluded self proclaimed “reformists” of Islam as well. You who claim to be against the Sharia and for modernity. What proof do you need to see this man lied and fooled people for his own personal gain and personal lust? What is there in Islam that you want to save and reform? Where shall we draw the line and say beyond this point we will not be fooled? Aren’t you embarassed to call yourselves the followers of an insane man?

Over a billion people follow this pied piper. Some of them call themselves “doctors.” They are university educated and have earned their diplomas. And yet, they are so befogged that they can’t see the man they follow was mentally sick. They go around calling themselves “moderate Muslims.” Hey, these gentlemen are “moderate Muslims,” you know! They are not extremely fool, just moderately fool.

Please proceed to part 5

Short URL: http://www.archive2012.faithfreedom.org/?p=5048

Posted by on Mar 31 2009. Filed under Debates. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback to this entry

1,144 Comments for “Debate with convert Donald Morgan part 4”

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  12. rationalist

    Great job Ali Sena, you summed up the real character of Muhammad by quoting verses from Quran and hadiths. The last 5 paragraphs should put the final nail in the coffin of Muhammad and his followers. If Morgan has any rationale left in him, he must come out of this cult asap.

    BTW, is split personality a symptom of NPD? Sometimes, we see people either very angry or extremely cool, and not in between. I also would like to know if a normal person can become a narcissist when influenced by Muhammad-like characters, or is NPD a genetic disease? Let me know.

  13. ibrahim

    I hope this is the last in this series. It was one of the most one sided debates that I ve read during the last 5 years I ve been visiting FFI.
    Now the thing is that even if Donald were to let down his ego for a while and think, it would be impossible for him to publically declare his apostacy from Islam, simply bcos he is now a very well know face (thanks to FFI).
    He has got himself into a muddle which he will regret later on, but will probably never be able to get out of it. If he is married to a non-white born Muslim lady, his problems will be compounded.
    This is what happens when have your balls where your brains should be.

  14. krishna786

    To sum it up guys,

    When muslims are in a minority they expressively want SECULAR LAW,(for the tumor to grow) & when in a majority they want SHARIA LAW.

    Only 3 simple laws will prevent advance of Islam
    1)Stop proletyzing.Bring anti conversion laws.Christians will be the first to protest,followed by the commies & then the muslims.
    2)Strict family planing laws.A muslim can have only one child per wife.This is to prevent demographic change.
    3)Electoral reforms— Bring a system which avoids communal voting.(more a community votes as one,reduce the % of the votes)This will prevent ghetto mentality.

    You can see,it is not realistic nor feasible.after visiting FFI,i visited few muslim houses who i felt were decent.They were decent & dignified,but scratch the surface,sorry to say–fanatics to the core.

    Recently i met a paki doctor.He told me the school curriculum showed the existence of pakistan from prehistoric days.Only when you go to a post graduate course you get to know the proper world history.I wonder how we can defeat a brainwashed islam???

  15. mratheist

    Yesterday, I was listening to a talkshow in which muslim convert was a guest.This guy, who convert from catholic, was telling his convert story. Guess what led to his conversion…..not having authoritative figure as in catholic. He was emphasizing how great islam is for not having authoritative figure and allowing its followers to communicate with god without middle man such and such. I was like, is that what he called appealing? This kind of stupidity never cease to amaze me. As for donald, I feel sorry for the kid for having a father like him He has no role model to look up to.

  16. krishna786

    Dears the video i have presented above is about the gaza tunnels.Though the video takes a humane view,it missed a crucial point–smuggling of weapons(mentioned only once) which Israel was crying hoarse about.I just wanted you guys to see the truth of the tunnels.

    Dear Salim,

    Akbar was a mighty emperor but he was clever.He made peace with the hindus.Not the case with Aurangazeb.No doubt he too was a mighty emperor & the mughal empire was the largest during his rein.But he was irresponsible while dealing with hindus,though muslims say he was a true muslim.But he effectively caused the 2 conditions
    1)shortened the life of the mughal empire, effectively muslims lost their political power.
    2)Hindu muslim strife in present day India is traced back to Aurangazeb.

  17. ibrahim

    Salim since you have named Ghalib, let me remind you of a couplet by him "Jannat ke hakikat hameen maloom hai, lekin dil behlaneko khayaal accha hai ghalib"
    Translation: I know the reality of Paradise, but its a good thought to entertain yourself.

  18. Salim

    Krishna says:
    Not the case with Aurangazeb.

    Where is Aurangzeb in the picture here?

    No doubt he too was a mighty emperor & the mughal empire was the largest during his rein.
    In any case you are wrong again. After Shah Jahan lost Kandhar, it was never regained even though Dara Shikoh was sent there twice to campaign. Aurangzed could not expand in deccan as well. The Mughal empire was largest during Akbar. Read your history before commenting.

    1)shortened the life of the mughal empire, effectively muslims lost their political power.
    How is it relevant here.

    2)Hindu muslim strife in present day India is traced back to Aurangazeb.
    You are wrong again. It is traced to Allaudin Khilji who led mass conversions. Then it was Firoz Tughlak who started jaziya in India. As I said, read before you shoot. We already have enough morons here.

    Ibrahim:
    That was good one from Ghalib. That was exactly I said earlier, even with maverick views, he did not say against the prophet or islam. Why?

  19. proudkafir

    Are you a moslem? This question can only be answered if we know the answer who is a moslem?
    I would say any one who says oiut loudly and believes in shahada" La illah hi illallaha , mohammadan rasool allah three times, is a moslem.In that case, I am also a nut case moslem as I have said it hundeds of times while cursing allah the pimp and maha low day mohammad. ( incidentally my wife keeps saying I certainly will go to islamic heaven as I curse allah the pimp so much.She does not yet know about 72 virgins who will be there to greet me and massage me.I don't like 28 boys.I shall hand them over to allah for his use!)
    SO who is a moslem? One who performs wuddhu repeatedly? either dry with dirt or wet, either before or after discharging?
    one who bangs the head in a mosque 5 times a day 365 days in a year?
    One who fasts during the month of ramadan and does not fart ?
    one who positively ugly looking( just like the pedophile propet) with shaved moustache?
    One who marries 4 wives? One who beats the wives?
    One who likes rakhsita with little girls?
    One who sleeps with daughter?
    One who kills or rapes?
    One who hates kafirs?
    One who has right hand possessions?
    one who follows the pedo rapist maha low day mohammad?
    One who is personification of evil?
    Only when this question is answered to the satisfaction of many , then only the question can ebe answered!
    Thankfully moslems are there in all shapes and sizes just like their low days
    Some rape only during ramadan,Some kill during ramadan but rape other months etc.

  20. krishna786

    Dear salim,

    It is a matter of perception who was the worst human being or a true muslim among the rulers of India.!!!I At least you admitted in your own words that the muslim rulers were not kind to hindus in India.made my day!!!!!

    Yes the comment of aurangazeb was out of context here.

  21. ibrahim

    Salim

    The thing is ghalib was a shair, a poet, he used to drink and do everything that is haram. As to why he did not speak about Muhammad, well there could be several reasons. The three that come to mind are:
    1. He did not care about the Prophet and what he said.
    2. He did not study Islam in depth.
    3. He did not want to be killed like a dog on the streets of Old Delhi.
    Muslims kill people even today when they feel that Muhammad so you can imagine what would happen in his days. I am not certain about my conclusions, yet Ghalib was in no way a believer. He certainly did not believe in the God of Islam or his prophet.

  22. Marie

    mratheist wrote:

    Yesterday, I was listening to a talkshow in which muslim convert was a guest.This guy, who convert from catholic, was telling his convert story. Guess what led to his conversion…..not having authoritative figure as in catholic. He was emphasizing how great islam is for not having authoritative figure and allowing its followers to communicate with god without middle man such and such. I was like, is that what he called appealing? This kind of stupidity never cease to amaze me. As for donald, I feel sorry for the kid for having a father like him He has no role model to look up to.

    Shows how much he knows about Catholicism. Catholicism does allow it's followers to communicate with God through prayer and meditation. As for not having an authoritative figure, the Quran is so confusing that Muslims have to depend on the clerics to lead them. I guess this person does not know about fatwas.

  23. ROGER

    THANKS YOU ALL FOR MAKING ME REALIZE THAT ISLAM IS THE BEST RELEGION

  24. fangkenstein

    Roger, You sound worried. Having second thoughts yare you

  25. fangkenstein

    Roger, You sound worried. Having second thoughts are you

  26. LeBron

    im indonesian,,, and HALELUYAH i BELONG TO JESUS…

    u know i sick of adzan evrytime i heard that!! my neighboorhood become a JESUS, when they realize something uncertainty inside quran.
    im gonna use indonesian language and quote ike this "tempatkan muhammad ditempat yang tinggi dan mulia, seperti yang kau janjikan" (you can use google translate)
    do you know what its means, their is not certainty that muhammad are going to heaven!!
    and my neighboorhood telling to me if muhammad dont have certainty and just have promised from allah, what about us just following muhammad"…. he said to me like that.

  27. peace_lover

    Ali Sina,

    In part 3 of your debate you talked about how misleading wikipedia can be. I am writing a paper for my English Composition class. In the paper I am critiquing a book by Karen Armstrong called "Islam A short History". I chose Karen Armstrong since she is considered to be an unbiased writer and is quoted extensively by Muslims and non Muslims alike. In the book she writes that in the battle of trench, seven hundred men of the Qurayzah were killed and their women and children were sold as slaves. But wikipedia article for " Battle of the trench" says that women and children were left alone. Do they mean that selling them as slaves was leaving them alone? So either Karen Armstrong lied or Wikipedia is wrong. If Karen Armstrong is right, then prophet Mohammad did encourage slave trade. I wonder what Mr. Gordon thinks about Karen Armstrong.

  28. Ali Sina

    Hi Rationalist

    Donald will never leave Islam. I am not going to bet, but I am fairly certain of it. (If he leaves Islam he will gravitate towards another doctrine of hate such as KKK or a similar cult) There are some people who naturally gravitate towards evil and evil doctrines. I’ve met a few of them. Members of KKK, the prison inmates, the communists, are ideal candidates to convert to Islam. I don’t believe all humans are innocent. Sami Zatari is one such person. I had this feeling about him just by reading his articles and when I saw his picture on Facebook I was confirmed. Donald Morgan is another case. I don’t want to say I am a face reader, but I get some vibes by just looking at the faces of people and I don’t see that special light in Donald. I get the same kind of evil vibe by looking at Obama. The majority of people love him. So only future will show I was right or wrong. I can bet that very soon most people will come to see the real face of this jerk. But it will be too late. I do not see any light of divine Donald countenance. I love to be proven wrong on this, but I know the chances are slim.

    NPD is often accompanied by several co-morbidities. Sometime they are so strong that can be diagnosed as distinct disorders and sometimes they are mild and not readily diagnosable. Remember that all these traits exist in all of us. They are normal human traits and they are necessary. It’s when they become excessive and when they hinder our performance that they are classified as disorder. The irony is that one symptom of NPD is over achievement. If you suffer from any disorder, like borderline personality, obsessive compulsive or bipolar, you become the victim. When you suffer from NPD, it’s others that become the victim while you seem to be successful and happy. The narcissist ability is to manipulate and fool others. That is what makes the narcissist extremely dangerous. The more a narcissist is given the power and authority, the more dangerous he becomes. There are many people like Obama. They cannot cause widespread damage. Obama can bring destruction on not just America but the world. People are so stupid that they just refuse to see and think he is no different from other presidents who were all narcissistic.

    Narcissists always form their own personality cult. Often the only member of their cult is their wife and maybe a few close friends. But sometimes their cult includes many people and the bigger it becomes the more dangerous they become.

    Yes always the cultists project the narcissistic personality of their cult leader. The cultists also become narcissists, as they absorb his personality disorder.

    You could see this narcissism the Germans during the time of Hitler. You can see that in Muslims and you can distinctly see that in the most devout worshipers of Zero. Obama worshippers are just as dangerous and as vicious as are the Muslims or as were the Nazis. These people are just as capable of doing evil as are the Muslims or as were the Nazis. I have a feeling that we are going to see blood in America, unless the media wakes up and starts telling people the truth about this monster.

    Normal person can acquire any disorder. The followers of cults are normal people, but the disorder of their leader is bequeathed to them and they act in the same way as their leader.

    You can be a normal person but you can give in to your craving and acquire eating disorder.

    Unlike what most homosexuals want you to believe, homosexuality is a sexual disorder that anyone can acquire. To say homosexuality is genetic is the most patent lie. Most homosexuals will tell you they “discovered” their homosexuality in their adulthood and often by watching homosexual pornography. Now they have invented also a new term “bisexuality” It is a disorder no more different than other deviant sexual disorder, Pedophilia is also a disorder. It develops in the same way that homosexuality develops.

    The problem is that it is much easier to develop a disorder than to get rid of it. It’s no different from tobacco addiction. It’s much easier to become a smoker than to quit.

  29. socratese

    Is Mohammad a prophet?then where is the proof.Why should we believe if he declares himself a prophet?If one says he is doctor then should show all necesssary certificates of qualifiation and relevent practical surgery .Otherwise he will not be allowed to practice the job of doctor to save the lives of people.Mohammad just diluded that he was prophet .THen ignorent people having heard of the concept of prophet from then existant judaism faith and gabreil from christianity and faith coming of one more prophet from jews ,falsely believed that he was prophet.THis was a great disaster.It was the ignorence and blind belief with out rational enquiry that lead to the disaster in the form of islam.Let us apply similar concept to other major faiths.Is Bhagwan Buddha enlightened ?How should we believe his concept of Astanga marga is one of the solution for suffering in this world and way to Nirvana?Buddha never asked his followers to blindly follow to any one including himself.He was the world first known rationalist and humnist.He said i got enlightenment means any one can get enlightenment through meditation for several years and through detachment.THe principles of nature are common to all including animals.How ever animals do not have sufficient rationality to understand and think.He said ignorence and superstition is the greatest evil and cause of all sufferings in this world.He gave practical way for enlightenment through astanga marga instead of difficult way of years of isolated meditaion.So here buddha never gave exclusive improtance to himself by saying he is the only enlighted one or capable of enlightenment.He said at the time of death "appo depo bhava"you can enlighten your self ..Then coming to christianity jesus has said he was son of god who is father.In his sencse he was the enlighted son of god who is capable of giving enlightenment throgh him if any one believes in him.Ther is no proof but some say he shown some miralce powers of curing .But still there is no danger in following him as he lived pure life and spread selfless loving service amoung people.He never hated or oredered to hate and kill any one.Many people like Mother theresa got inspiration from him to selflessly serve and love the people .So believing in jesus is not bad or dangerous.THen coming to hinduism there are so many ways for enlighten.You do not require even any god for enlightenment.You can follow any one of the four major specified paths or a combination of them for enlightenment.you have to just folllow the laws of nature and follow your duty.Even that is sufficient.Even through athiesm and following your duty through dedication and living pure life you can acheve enlightenment.So thers is no need count those larage number of gods right from earht to sun and to supreme god who is almight.There no need to debate which god you should follow ,follow any god with dedication.they are all different vehicles leading for the same destination.Then jainism is also athiest religion but with severe principles of non-voilence and austerity.So by the conlcusion mohammad was not a prophet at all.he diluded that he was a prophet and then started all lying and confusing people around him.First he feared that that evil devil has caught him but cousin of Khadija who was converted christian falsely declared he was prophet.Over all it is ignorence and blind superstition that is root cause of mad islam and its false and evil prophet.He was just a madman.

  30. Ali Sina

    # 3
    Hi Peace_Love
    It's not Gordon, It's Morgan, Donald Morgan.

    Both Armstrong and Muslims lie. Armstrong is a foolish woman who has portryed Muahmmad as a great reformer and statesman. As the truth about Muhammad spreads this woman will be marginalized and discredited.

    Don't read Wikipedia at all. People who write there are not scholars, but biased people. They write there for free becasue they have an agenda. Only the articles on science, space, physics, etc. that are not controversial can be trusted to some extent. Articles on people and faiths should never be trusted. never.

  31. socratese

    I suggest all rationalsits and humansits here to read the long conversations and life of buddha.It is very intersting and clearly brings a new thoght and approach in your life.

  32. peace_lover

    #6

    Thanks for correcting me Ali. I just watched The dark knight 5th time today and there is a character called commissioner Gordon so I typed Gordan instead of Morgan. You are right about wikipedia. Even my english teacher has asked me not to quote that website.

  33. proudkafir

    This is for free spirit.
    I thought of penning this down earlier but couldn't.
    I say you will be truly and stay free spirit if you listen to ultra whispers! That's your conscience the voice of conscience is too strong.If you commit a mistake the conscience ( whisper ultra!) will tell you and till you listen to the whisper ultra and act accordingly your spirit will never stay free. Hope you like that.
    Many a times religion tells you the exact opposite of what the voice of conscience tells you. We are all conditioned to religious babble from child hood days.So we assume that the religion must be telling the truth.Until you free the mind of this shackles, you will never be a free spirit.The main problem with all the (, at least most moslems) is this.they are unable to think rationally, due to the brain conditioning by the religious drivel that has gone on for too long.
    I do not eat beef not for religious reasons.For health reasons.I do not eat meat for the animals do have lief and we are killing them for no extra benefit.We can be healthy and hearty with vegetarian food alone.So there is a need to be compassionate to the animals.This is nothing religious at all.Having said that I do occassionally enjoy my stake( well done please) and brabecued chicken.Then i really have to suppress the voice of conscience. Then I realised the moslems must be / not feeling that they are doing any thing wrong at all, when they practice what's in qrand and what was done by rasool maha low day!
    Over generations moslems have killed their conscience.Thats' the reason the moslems make their children kill the animals during eid. Moslem Children enjoy beheading the poor goat or sheep or chicken. So when they carry on the same with human beings as well they do not feel ill at ease, but feel good.
    for your spirit to stay free use whisper ultra

  34. Marie

    peace_lover wrote:

    Ali Sina,

    In part 3 of your debate you talked about how misleading wikipedia can be. I am writing a paper for my English Composition class. In the paper I am critiquing a book by Karen Armstrong called “Islam A short History”. I chose Karen Armstrong since she is considered to be an unbiased writer and is quoted extensively by Muslims and non Muslims alike. In the book she writes that in the battle of trench, seven hundred men of the Qurayzah were killed and their women and children were sold as slaves. But wikipedia article for ” Battle of the trench” says that women and children were left alone. Do they mean that selling them as slaves was leaving them alone? So either Karen Armstrong lied or Wikipedia is wrong. If Karen Armstrong is right, then prophet Mohammad did encourage slave trade. I wonder what Mr. Gordon thinks about Karen Armstrong.

    peace_lover wikipedia gets most of their information from people who come to that site, not from actual scholars or experts in any field. Basically anyone who comes to that site is a self-titled scholar or expert.

  35. Marie

    Ali Sina wrote:

    Both Armstrong and Muslims lie.

    That is why Muslims consider her as one of their apologists.

  36. Islamophobic

    Ali Sina "coup de grâce" 4 X 0 Donald Duck Drogan!

    And remember to tell your mule mullah after farting your Adhan prayer!

    There´s no Satan but Allah and MuuuuhCowMAD / Mumm-Ra-MAD is his Profit$$$$!

    The Holy Charade (Shahada)!

  37. Marie

    Donald Morgan

    Also, the call to Islam Muhammad made attracted what type of people? According to Karen Armstrong, in her book titled ‘Islam’, the early followers of Muhammad were the poor and disenfranchised (with the exception given to Abu Bakr Siddiq and Khadijah). Again, if a person suffering from NPD aspires to have people of high rank or status be part of his inner circle of friends or companions, his message would have appealed to that type of person. Muhammad’s message appealed to the poor, sick and weak amongst the Arabs because it was a message of liberation. This is why a vast majority of those who first accepted Islam were poor, disenfranchised people, not people of wealth, status and power. As a matter of fact, those with wealth, status and power, the Quaraish of Makkah tried to stop Muhammad’s message by any means necessary.

    Muhammed's message only appealed to a small group of people. The rest of his converts were raiders and theives looking for wealth.

    Why does Ali Sina even bother having an argument with this bafoon?

  38. proudkafir

    #30
    Mentally disintegrate? Nah he is degenerate and so he has converted in to this evil of islam.Soon he will start performing all the following things, if he is not already.See, in order to belong to this elite club of maha luv day mohammad you need to do a lot of things and be convinced that they are doing the right things. A pious recent convert will do these things to show to the other members of the club, that he means business.
    so read on his true actions of what moslem does.
    1.He will wake up very early and rushes to the nearest mosque to bang his head. If the mosque is too far away he will spread the rug and bang his head at home.
    Nothing wrong so far except that he has to do this 5 times a day and 365 days a year! 99% of the moslems will not do this as it's not possible to rush to a mosque all the time. Home head banging exercise can be done, but then 5* 365= 1825 times of head banging and back side lifting will seriously damage ones brain and back side.Ahh but to be a moslem the one organ in the body not needed at all is brain.So no problem there.and as far back side, moslems like their damaged back side.
    2.He will beat the crap out of his wife/ wives.He has to take extra wives being the sunnah and naturally there will be sublime tension between multiple awras (pudendas) at home.He has to look at a woman ( sorry awra , pudenda) as awra and always think of rakhsita.(sex) sunnah you see.
    3.He has to shave off his moustache and keep an ugly untrimmed beard. If I am right he has done that. This gives that necessary ugly, mean, evil look besides the evil acts as well/
    4.He will start wearing the trousers 1 foot above the ankle.Sunnah
    5.He will soon start hating every one who does not follow the rapist rasool and will stop mixing with them.
    6.He will cover all his wives in that black cloth.
    7.He will want only halal meat and will stop visits to Mcdonalds.
    8.All his friends will now look like him!
    9.He will stop drinking alchohol ( a good side effect of the evil islam I should say) and will start smoking more.
    10.He will be aggressive and short tempered.I mean who will not be after banging his head day in and day out 2000 times a year?
    11.He will start his sunnah and it will soon be not easy.He will get the dik shortened.
    12.He will start eyeing the neighbouring little girls( 6 years or younger) He will start inbviting his sons class mate girls home often. Hope the stupid kafirs know about his intentions and the change.
    13.he will start beating women and children at home.
    14.the day he rapes a little girl of 6 next door, his conversion will be complete and now he is ready for the Jihad sabib ul allah in simple terms kafir killing exercise.Now he is delusional and is thinking of 72 virgins he will screw and 28 boys as well. Just thinking of so much of rakhsita, he will have a floppy dik. He has to find kafirs around to eliminate.That in short the progress of the maha low day sadiq.Ahh wait there is short cut.Start the little girl raping sunnah of prophet and you will be a very pious and highly placed moslem! Why bother? no wonder islam is rapidly spreading in prisons.Criminals are the first subscribers to this evil magazine called qrand.

  39. Andre

    well said, proudkafir!
    don't forget they will always try to make sharia law imposed to a country, and they say it only affect the islamist! what nonsense

  40. ibrahim

    Hey people watch this video, by lilly allen. http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=5361400

  41. mratheist

    @Ibn Kammuna
    Donald Morgan definitely won the Debate……..

    April fool

  42. Andre

    Is there a continuity on this issue? i really like to read how these islamist try to justify their prophet, a funny thing in my boring work hour…oops..

  43. Salim

    Ali sina`s question:
    Salim, Are you still a Muslim?

    This simple question has difficult answer today. I could have answered unequivocally a few months back. I have been a total muslim till last id around when our local maulvi visited us and enquired of me how my rozas were going. I felt offended as to why someone should question me thus, afterall it was my choice and I was just recuperating from jaundice. Even my parents never asked me such question (except my grandmother, but I never minded anything she did because we have known each other for a really long time and now she is nearing 90 years of age). So I decided to explore Islam totally myself to draw my own conclusions.
    My family is muslim though, although my father and mother are not all that practicing kind, though my very old grandmother is. Some day soon, I am going to get married and move out of my parent’s house and take certain independent decisions, although I am financially independent even now. In any case, whatever actions I undertake regarding islam, I cannot hurt my parent’s in any way and never my old granny, that is the least I could do to them who have brought me up. Perhaps, I would still say that I am muslim.

    I understand that your book must come at a price worth your efforts. Right now, I think your views are radical since you attack the prophet right in the beginning and give justifications later on. That may bias my views one way or another. Right now, I think I must understand in my own way reading Omar Khayyam and Salim Chishti. Based on outcome, I will take next step reading your book (I promise I will buy because I can afford it and I don`t live in a muslim country, I live in Mumbai, even though Ibrahim has kindly agreed to make it available to me).

    I am not convinced how Islam has still lasted, and I am probing it myself. Politically it could not have been possible. Akbar was a mighty emperor, he could have quit if that was the case. Even greed of heaven or fear of hell was not enough, because daring intellectuals like Mirza Ghalib or Zouk would have quit. Cult mentality was fair but not sufficient reason again, because cults die when the leaders vanish. Thanks for everybody`s response anyway.
    Donald Morgan`s arguments have been very mediocre. I wish this kind of debate had never happened. It is sheer waste of time for someone who is trying to understand things in perspective to keep track of such debates.

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