FaithFreedom.org

Debate with convert Donald Morgan Part 3

Part 1 of this debate is here

Part 2 is here

Donald Morgan

The number one priority of a person suffering from NPD is the maintenance and preservation of his ego. If this person’s ego is challenged or compromised, he will become enraged. So, if Muhammad had NPD he would have called for the destruction of those responsible for embarrassing and humiliating him. He would have asked Gabriel to crush the city, killing all those who stoned him and belittled him in the streets. The fact that he did not give in to the offer made by Gabriel, shows us that he did not have NPD.

Ali Sina

Are you really this naïve? There was no Gabriel, buddy. It was all lies made up by that charlatan.

Yes Muhammad was unforgiving of those who humiliated him and injured his ego. When he broke the Hudaibiyyah treaty and made his Allah to “reveal” Sura 9, Bara;a (deliverance from keeping your treaty) and with 10,000 armed marauding men showed up at the gates of Mecca, the Meccans who had naively trusted this conman and his words were caught off guard. Abu Sufyan came out and made a deal with Muhammad to surrender with no fight in exchange that Muhammad desist killing anyone. Muhammad agreed. However, despite his promise he could not forgive those who had mocked and ridiculed him. Among them there were two singing and dancing girls who used to recite poetries mocking this pompous buffoon. He beheaded those hapless women and several others who used to laugh at him when he was living in Mecca. There are many stories that show Muhammad never forgot or forgave those who laughed at him. Christians say Satan cannot stand being ridiculed. Muhammad had no tolerance for that and so his followers who are ready to kill any number of people if someone laughs at their narcissist prophet or at them. Muslims’ sensitivity is more delicate then petal, but their hearts is harder than stone.

Donald Morgan

After his encounter in Ta’if, Muhammad collapsed and became weak. Some Makkans saw him and offered him shelter, until he could recuperate from his wounds. While in the company of these Makkans he made the following prayer to Allah:

O Allah, To Thee I complain of my weakness, my lack of resources and my lowliness before men. O most Merciful! Thou art the Lord of the weak and Thou art my Lord. To whom wilt Thou relinquish my fate! To one who will misuse me? Or to an enemy to whom Thou hast given power over me? If Thou art angry with me then I care not what happens to me. Thy favor is all that counts for me. I take refuge in the light of Thy countenance, by which all darkness is illuminated. And the things of this world and next are rightly ordered. I wish to please Thee until Thou art pleased. There is no power and no might save in Thee.’ (You can read about this story at the following link http://www.alislam.org/library/zafar/exampler.html )

Ali Sina

And in what ways this proves that Muhammad was not a narcissist? That is exactly how a narcissist would behave when humiliated and unable to take revenge. He would take a high moral ground and a better than thou posture. Did Muhammad remain so meek when he came to power? No! All that Christ like docility evaporated and a ruthless tyrant emerged. On numerous occasions, if a person made a remark slightly defiant of his authority, his face would turn red and Omar would unsheathe his sword asking permission to behead the insolent person. This was to intimidate people and deter anyone to dare questioning him or challenging his authority. All these are explained in my book. You chose not to read.

Muhammad became so haughty that when a group of Arabs came to see him and did not treat him like a king, he made his bogus Allah reveal verses telling people to respect his beloved prophet.

O ye who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak aloud to him in talk, as ye may speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds become vain and ye perceive not. Those that lower their voices in the presence of Allâh’s Messenger, their hearts has Allâh tested for piety: for them is Forgiveness and a great Reward. Those who shout out to thee from without the inner apartments – most of them lack understanding. (Q.49:2-4)

Muhammad had zero tolerance for dissent and less for being ridiculed. Don’t quote me stories of his “tolerance” of the time when he had no power to retaliate. What could he do in such a state of helplessness? Let us look into his deeds when he came to power and then see what an intolerant monster he became.

Donald Morgan

I want the readers to notice the part of his prayer that is printed in bold text. According to the DSM, NPD sufferers have a sense of entitlement and absolute power is what they crave. This is in direct conflict with Muhammad’s prayer. In his prayer he says he is weak and has a lack of resources. He even describes himself as being lowliness before men. These are not attributes a person with NPD attributes to himself. So we can conclude, again, that Muhammad did not have NPD.

Ali Sina

You obviously have no understanding of NPD. The sense of entitlement never left Muhammad throughout his life. However, narcissists play the role of victim always. You claim to have read my book. I know you didn’t. There is a long chapter that compares Muhammad and Jim Jones. Acting as a humble servant of God or of humanity is a distinct characteristic of a narcissist.

I quoted Dr. Vaknin who explained this point superbly. He wrote, “To avoid such intolerable pain, some patients with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) socially withdraw and feign false modesty and humility to mask their underlying grandiosity. Dysthymic and depressive disorders are common reactions to isolation and feelings of shame and inadequacy.”

In page 89-90, I wrote:

When Muhammad was still weak and had few followers, he was courteous, attentive, compassionate, flexible, helpful and even feigned humility. There is a sharp contrast between the Qur’anic verses written during this period and those written in Medina when he became powerful and did not need to wear a mask to woo new converts with kindness. In Medina, he became demanding, tyrannical, willful, aggressive and exploitative. There he raided villages and towns and after killing unarmed men and looting them, demanded survivors submit to him, pay jizyah, or face death.

The following are examples Meccan verses:

1. Be patient with what they say, and part from them courteously. (Q.73:10)

2. To you be your religion, and to me my religion. (Q. 109:6)

3. Therefore be patient with what they say, and celebrate (constantly) the praises of your Lord. (Q.20:103)

4. Speak well to men. (Q.2:83)

5. We well know what the infidels say: but you are not to compel them. (Q.50:45)

6. Hold to forgiveness; command what is right; but turn away from the ignorant. (Q.7:119)

7. Pardon thou, with a gracious pardoning. (Q.15:85)

8. Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the Days of Allâh. (Q.45:14)

9. Those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians - any who believe in Allâh and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Q.2:62)

10. And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best. (Q.29:46)

Compare them to those written later in Medina when Muhammad became powerful.

1. Oh you who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you. (Q.9:123)

2. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off. (Q.8:12)

3. Whoso desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him. (Q.3:85)

4. Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. (Q.9:5)

5. Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out. (Q.2:191)

6. Fight them on until there is no more dissension and religion becomes that of Allâh. (Q.9:193)

7. Fight them, and Allâh will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame. (Q.9:14)

8. Make no excuses: you have rejected Faith after you had accepted it. If we pardon some of you, we will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin. (Q.9:66)

9. You who believe! Verily, the Mushrikûn (unbelievers) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the grand mosque at Mecca) after this year. (Q.9:28)

10. Fight those who do not believe in Allâh and the last day… and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior. (Q.9:29)

You did not read my book and that is why you rehashed the same fallacy that I had already refuted. Even the most deadly snake is harmless when defanged. You cannot call a helpless man tolerant. Only those who have the power can prove their tolerance by not abusing it. Muhammad was not a tolerant man when he came to power.

Donald Morgan

Another instance of Muhammad’s humble nature comes to us from another instance in his life. The Arab pagans in Makkah realized that Muhammad’s message was gaining popularity amongst the people of Makkah. They viewed Muhammad’s message a threat to their economy and trade because Muhammad was preaching worship of one god. The Makkans made money from pagan rights because every year, the pagan Arabs would house their gods in the custody of the Kabbah. With this lingering threat to their livelihood they came to Muhammad with an offer. They offered him ‘status’, wealth and the keys to the Kabbah. In exchange, Muhammad was to cease all preaching and callings to the worship on one god. Muhammad’s uncle, Abu Talib, came to Muhammad with this offer. Muhammad’s response to this lucrative offer was:

‘O Uncle, if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left hand in order that I may leave my work, I will not do so. God will help me or I shall die in it.’

According to DSM, a person suffering from NPD craves power and will go through great lengths to attain it. The Makkans offered Muhammad what every NPD sufferer craves, status, wealth, power and the prestigious honor to own keys to the Kabbah itself. Any NPD sufferer would have jumped onto this opportunity at instant power and wealth. If Muhammad had NPD he would have agreed to these terms, instead he chose exile and ridicule by the pagan Arabs. This instance in the life Muhammad proves he did not have NPD. ( You can read this account)

Ali Sina

I am amazed at your gullibility and naiveté. First of all Monotheism was no threat to the economy of Mecca. There were many monotheist religions like Sabeans, Jews, Christians and Magians in Arabia. The followers of these faiths preached with no opposition and in freedom.

There were other monotheist prophets contemporary to Muhammad like Musailama and Sijah and they too had many followers. Although they never engaged in robbery and other crimes that distinguished Muhammad’s prophetic career, unlike him, they were successful among their own people. Their people did not call them mad and lunatics but actually believed in them.

Monotheism posed no threat to the Meccan economy. In fact after Muhammad raided and conquered Mecca the economy of that town improved and it kept improving as Islam expanded? Will you explain in what ways monotheism was a threat to the Meccan economy? You have gobbled every nonsense so uncritically that is truly worrisome.

You remind me of Almost Aisha’s words who wrote, “After my conversion, I felt a sense of peace and happiness that I had never before experienced in my life, and hope to never experience again.” Then she goes on to explain that the peace that she experienced was caused by numbing her intelligence and by believing in every baloney fed to her in the name of divine truth, uncritically. She woke up because she was smart. Are you ever going to wake up Donald? The difference is that she read my book in its entirety while you read a few pages and started writing your pathetic rebuttal. Yes she was just as confident about her newfound faith as you are, but she was intelligent enough to not shut all doors of investigation. She did not read my book to agree or learn something new, but to refute it. However she knew that in order to refute me she had to learn fully what I say. It was then that the truth struck her and she woke up from that numbing peacefulness.

You are not Almost Aisha. You are so full of yourself that don’t even bother to see what your opponent say and begin writing before knowing their position. You have no chance with me, but with this kind of attitude you lose even if you were on the right side of the argument. Not only your position is wrong, also your approach is wrong. As Sun Zi said, know your enemy before going to the battle. If you had read my book, you would not have won this debate, but you’d have saved yourself the humiliation.

I sent you my book for free. I sent it to hundreds of other Muslims. There is not a single Muslim who read my book and was not shaken by it. Today, I was chatting with my Italian friend. She asked who do you think will write the next century? I said. “me!” ”Oh! Santa Maddonna santissima!“ she exclaimed.  I told her when the knowledge of Islam and particularly the truth about Muhammad’s mental disorders spread and people understand that he was not a prophet, but a mentally sick man Islam will become history. Over a billion people will be liberated and a new era of peace will begin, and today’s Islamic countries will come out of their misery and will prosper. This is a reality that is going to happen. Have no doubt about it. Then I clarified to her that it is not me personaly that I am talking about. Thanks heaven, I do not have narcissistic delusions of grandiosity. I said “me” in the manner of joke and to hear that lovely Italian exclamation. The truth is that it will be all of us apostates who understand Islam and spread that understanding that will write the next century. WE are going to write the future. It looks like you are not going to be part it Donald. You are not even in the present. You are stuck in the past incrusted in the seventh century.

One erudite Muslim who wrote a very polite letter asking for debate, after reading the book wrote to say I am the most dangerous person on earth, more dangerous than Christians or any enemy of Islam that has ever lived. He did not try to refute me, as you so pretentiously think you can, but only to convery his shock. Of course I am not a threat to any person, but sure I am to Islam. That man’s faith was shaken, just as the faiths of hundreds of Muslims who read my book is shaken. These people will one day come to their senses and will realize that they are only fooling themselves. That possibility is slim in your case, because your head is stuck deep in the sand. There is no one blinder than the one who does not want to see and no one deafer than the one who does not want to hear.

From what we read so far of your pearls of wisdom it is clear that you are not exceptionally smart. In fact you are quite naïve. I am sure there is nothing wrong with your intelligence, it’s just that you’ve so convinced yourself of a lie that you don’t look to see what others say. Instead of reading my book to try to refute it, you went on looking from which university Dr. Vaknin got his degree. How pathetic!

Just to set the records straight, Dr. Vaknin studied in 1982-3 in ENCINO, California called “Pacific.” (At that time it was replete with a campus with students, faculty, exams, and all the paraphernalia of higher education.) Later, to distinguish itself from other Pacific universities, it added the moniker “Western”. Sometime during the 1990s it merged out of existence.

You dug a malicious rumor about Dr. Vaknin that claimed he obtained his degree from a diploma mill. This is very old hat and completely false. The “info” is maliciously (and libelously) was spread by Wikipedians, the anonymous editors of Wikipedia, a group with no face and responsibility. Anyone can become an editor of Wikipedia and many do for a vendetta to spread rumors about people they have an ax to grind against or to promote themselves.

This character assassination of Dr. Vaknin on Wikipedia was no different from what Muslims write about me. It was completely baseless, malicious and cowardly. Who stands behind anything written on Wikipedia? It’s foolish to rely on this open site to find facts about people. You cling to any straw because you are desperate.

See this page on this subject. http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/wikipedia.html

Responding to this malicious libel, Dr. Vaknin wrote, “I have never been to Hawaii, let alone studied there. The diploma mill that used to call itself “Pacific Western University” (and then was litigated into changing its name) was based in Honolulu. To obtain my Ph.D., I had to submit a dissertation and defend it. That I have a bona fide doctorate is very easy to prove: it is available from the Library of Congress and from UMI.”

You can find Dr. Vaknin’s doctoral dissertation in the Library of Congress Catalog by

1. Click on this link http://catalog.loc.gov/

2. Click on Basic Search 3. Select Author/Creator Browse from the Search Type pull-down menu 4. Type “Vaknin” in the Search Text dialog box. Vaknin’s books (and doctoral dissertation) are listed under Vaknin, Sam; Vaknin, Sem; and Vaknin, Samuel. To view his books click on “Vaknin, Samuel” and “Vaknin, Sem” and select the Full Record tabs. To view his doctoral dissertation, click on “Vaknin, Sam”. You will be forwarded to a page titled: Time Asymmetry Revisited Select the Full Record tab. Vaknin’s dissertation is also included in UMI’s databases (University Microfilms International). Click here to read some correspondence which may be of interest in this respect.

Just like any other argument you presented, it is clear that you don’t do your research before opening your big mouth and making a fool of yourself. Instead of paying attention to what you read, even to refute it in a rational way, you went on ‘source hunting’ and when you found one of the hadiths in my book is referenced from a Sufi site, you berated that hadith without bothering to see that the same haith is quoted in several Sunni sites. You are not a scholar Donald. All you have done so far is pooh-pooh my sources without doing proper research. What a pathetic way of thinking? What a waste of intelligence? You are a waste of my time and I get a distinct pleasure humiliating you publicly. I have no sympathy for people who willingly refuse to use their brains and are deliberately malicious. If you were stupid I would be a lot more sympathetic to you. Since you are not stupid, but only arrogant and delusional, unwilling to use your brain, you don’t get my sympathy.


The Meccans did not offer wealth to Muhammad to make him desist preaching. This ludicrous claim can only be believed by the gullible Muslims whose brains, as Almost Aisha said, are at “peace.” What kind of rational people offer wealth to a prophet pretender to make him stop lying? Has such thing ever happened in the history of mankind? There is not a day that a crackpot does not claim to be a prophet, the messiah, the messenger of God, and what not; and there is no dearth of fools to believe in them. Can you show one single instance where one of these pretenders has been approached with money to stop preaching? How much stupidity is enough Donald?

Why would the Meccans want to offer money to a man they thought to be mad and majoon (jinn possessed)? They just laughed at him. They were understandably offended when he started maligning their sacred beliefs. What would Muslims do when someone slights Muhammad? Despite that the Meccans did not act violently. They boycotted him and his insolent followers, but never harmed them physically. These beguiled converts were the Meccan’s foolish sons and daughters. The Meccans did not want to harm them. I have explained this in my book. You did not read it. I showed that all those claims of persecution of Muslims are lies. The Meccans could easily get rid of Muhammad, but they didn’t. They were tolerant just as the world is today tolerant towards Muslims, whereas Muslims engage in terrism while at the same time they cry victim.

That story you are telling me is a lie. It is not in the hadith or in the Quran. It is a later day forgery. Even if it were in the hadith or in the Quran it would still be a lie because it goes against commonsense. People do not offer money and wealth to those whom they believe are liars. Meccans believed Muhammad was a liar. Why would they want to prize a liar with wealth when they could easily kill him if they wanted to silence him? It takes either a Muslim or an fool to believe in this balderdash. How many lies can you gobble before you explode?

Now, as an interesting note, I did receive an offer of $1,000,000 dollars to shut down faithfreedom.org. I got this email last year and I shared it with my fellow editors. I tried to engage that Muslim to elaborate further, unfortunately he did not respond. I asked him why does he want to give away so much money when all he has to do is refute one of my charges for me to shut down the site. His response was. “You are doing a lot of harm.” That is all I got from him and he did not reply my subsequent probing.

Why a Muslim would want to silence me with money? It’s because they cannot kill me. If they could get rid of me in a more economical way why would they want to prize someone whom they hate? It makes no sense. It is also likely that this person was not really serious, but was testing me. Well, one million dollars does not attract me. Tempt me with something of eight digits and I may think about it. (Just kidding) 

Tommorrow Part 4 of this debate will be published. Please come back. You’re not going to be disapointed. It is the best part of this series yet.  If you are pregnant, don’t come back tomorrow. Your child may be born prematurely.

Short URL: http://www.archive2012.faithfreedom.org/?p=5045

Posted by on Mar 30 2009. Filed under Debates. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback to this entry

153 Comments for “Debate with convert Donald Morgan Part 3”

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  37. rationalist

    More humiliation for Donald Morgan. Hey Morgan, why did you change your name to Saadiq? It is such a pathetic name. Use your logic and come to senses. Islam is the living filth on earth. Muslims can't understand that they are becoming filthy by emulating Muhammad.

  38. [...] In Islamists Debate with convert Donald Morgan Part 3 Mar [...]

  39. Poma

    My God wat this man really wnat infact i dont understand

    Mr Ali…plz dont mind bt u r really wasting ur time….
    istead of Debating with thm…Preach to our Christian Coummunity…
    they r jst like singing in front of COW..
    they dotn understand..
    thy jst Know thy will b in Heaven…and All Non Muslims will b Hell..so i love the Hell coz i really dnt need 72Horssss….

  40. proudkafir

    I stopped reading the drivel by this zombie.I am not quite sure why did Ali Sina waste his precious time trying to enlighten this endarkened fellow in the grip of the evil islam.I am not going to read the trash he has written.I vaguely get the feeling that this cahppy is perhaps a paid agent of mohammad?

  41. ibrahim

    Donald is an idiot, some of my friends who are on Facebook told me about the sort of pompous stand he takes while presenting his pathetic debate. He is always riding a high horse and it was time that he was brought down from it. Actually Ali has given him a nice donkey ride with his head tonsured and face blackened.
    Perhaps he had himself assumed that he has won the debate, for he does not even care to read what the other person has to say. When his opponent realises that he or she is banging his head against a wall, they just leave debating with him and Mr. Morgan declares victory.

  42. a_comment

    rationalist wrote: "Hey Morgan, why did you change your name to Saadiq?"

    comment

    Saadiq, I believe means a friend in Arabic
    ————–

    Mr. Ali Sina and Muslim debates have become like a movie plot, you know the heroes, the villains, the triumph of good over evil …..etc..

  43. akram

    @Poma: No, no and another no! Don't distract him, he is doing a wonderful job for muslims…he is all ours ;) I just register to post this….am generally a leacher..

    @a_comment: Nopes, ironically, it means "truthful" in arabic. Abu Bakr was given that title by muhammad after he confirmed that muhammad did fly to allah and back in a night….

    @Donald: I am sad for you. I started as a muslim and through the use of my brain (given by "allah" :D ) am on the right path now. Left Islam years ago at a very young age even before reading Ali Sina's site. Islam just doesn't make sense. Had to face so much opposition from my family. My mother even today bursts into tears when I talk to her about it…

    You were not born an atheist but still in a society where there is little oppression when it comes to religion. Still…look at you now…am just plain sad for you. I hope you can get out of it.

  44. akram

    @Sina: If there was a offer for one million, direct that guy to Zakir Naik…Remember he made the pathetic excuse that he can only fight for reward above 1 million…why not try?

  45. proudchristian

    There is no one person in his sane mind can convert to islam. Muhammad was trusted by gullible people and today people who convert to islam are either gullibles, debaucherers, deprived, love in case of western girls or for Petro$. Some muslim converts from christianity say they converted because christianity and trinity did not make sense. For me these people first were not christians at first place because it is incomprehensible to abandon christianity for islam if really that person understood christianity and tasted Christ. Secondly, if these converts see Islam is logical-then there is nothing else will they see illogical. No wonder to them pedophilia, jihad, hedonic paradise of sex and alcohol, angels harmering dead bodies in the graves, etc.. are all logical to them. I can't even imagine how can someone defend islam without resorting to lies.

  46. Alan Rabbi

    Why is it that in the course of hating Islam, Muhammad, ans Allah, and Moses, yahweh, jesus, Parents, virgins. (Iam not sure if there is something you don’t hate, you hate-filled little….!!!!). why is it that you Preach Freedom while you don’t respect people’s freedom. if a jew want to believe in Yahweh that is his business as it is muslim’s business to adore Allah. that is freedom. Look in the book and you’ll find the exact description of YOU: HYPOCRITES: They say what they do not do!!! And yeah Becky, you’re DAMN right !!!: “”"”Sweetie, history is always written by the winner and the winner is rarely honest or compassionate to others. “”"” Today the winner is the U.S, it’s out of wedlock Child (you know who it is), and the hoard of capitalist savages using children of pakistan and thailand, poor Girls of eastern europe, and western technology to make more money in the name of Modernity. BUT U KNOW WHAT, the more your hate and effort intensifies the more we know that the inevitable is getting close to you so Cheer up good people of this earth, no matter what religion you are, christian, jewish, muslim or whatever: PEACE IS COMING.

  47. ROGER

    WELL BY READING THE COMMNENTS OF ALL OF YOU I REACHED TO THE DECISION THAT MR SINA IS THE LIER I MYSELF THE NON MUSLIM BUT MR DONALD AND MR FF.COM HAVE SATISFIED ME NOW IAM CONVERTING TO ISLAM SOON BY REFERING TO THE FAMOUSE SCHOLAR OF TODAYS WORLD.THANKS
    FF.COM AND DONALD FOR MAKING ME REALIZE THAT ISLAM IS THE BEST RELEGION

  48. PEACEMAN

    DOES ANYONE HAS NUMBER FOR HEAVEN OR ADDRESS,I THINK ALL MUSLIMS HAVE…PLZ EMAIL ME ,ALSO PLZ TELL ME HOW MUCH MONEY I NEED TO CARRY WHEN I AM DIE,OR R THE LADIES FREE IN SO CALL HEAVEN BY MUSLIMS,I HAVE Erectile Dysfunction ,DOES DAT MATTERS WILL ALLAH REJECT,DID THIS HEAVEN EXISTED AFTER MUHAMMAD RO WAS THERE EARLIER ,IFNOT DAT MEANS IF HEAVEN EXISTED AFTER MUHAMMAD CONFIRMED THAT MEANS ALL MUSLIMS PRIOR TO MUMAD DIDNT GO TO HEAVEN ,MUST B STILL ALIVE IN PAKISTAN OR AFGHANISTAN..PLZ PLZ LET ME KNOW

  49. LeBron

    im indonesian,,, and HALELUYAH i BELONG TO JESUS…

    u know i sick of adzan evrytime i heard that!! my neighboorhood become a JESUS, when they realize something uncertainty inside quran.
    im gonna use indonesian language and quote ike this "tempatkan muhammad ditempat yang tinggi dan mulia, seperti yang kau janjikan" (you can use google translate)
    do you know what its means, their is not certainty that muhammad are going to heaven!!
    and my neighboorhood telling to me if muhammad dont have certainty and just have promised from allah, what about us just following muhammad"…. he said to me like that.

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