Women's Equality – The Global Challenge for Our Generation
Submitted by Jeffrey Imm on Sat, 08/29/2009 - 02:29
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There is no challenge or priority greater for our generation larger than the continuing global oppression of women, who represent half of humanity. This challenge for women's equality and women's freedom must be a concerted effort by men and women together for the futures of our daughters, our sisters, our nieces, and the billions of women who are counting on our courage to defend their universal human rights. We see the oppression of women on a daily basis around the world, including the pandemic rape and sexual violence in the Congo, so-called "honor killings," and the religious supremacist and misogynist oppression of women. We must stand united on all fronts challenging the human trafficking, oppression, sexual violence, and femicide against women around the world.
The key in this struggle for women's equality remains consistency.
We cannot decide that women's equality matters in some parts of the world, but not in others. Human equality is a universal human right – it applies everywhere and to everyone. We also cannot decide that we oppose women's equality because we may not like some of the decisions some women may make if they have equality. Human equality is a universal human right - whether we like the decisions some people make as equal human beings is never an argument against equality itself.
Our hope for women's equality lies in building communities that are willing to share our love for our fellow human beings, as well as share a consistent commitment to equality and liberty for women – in America and around the world.
Equality for Women Must Be Constitutionally Guaranteed in America
Yesterday was Women's Equality Day, which commemorates the passage of the 19th Amendment, the Women's Suffrage Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which gave U.S. women full voting rights in 1920. Nearly 90 years later, it remains a disgrace that women have not yet been given full Constitutional equality, and that must change. In the United States, we must declare unequivocally and without reservation in our Constitution that all men AND women are equal under our national law.
Such fundamental issues of women's equality must be not the choice of "interpretations" by state governments and changing legislatures, but must be an unequivocal, Constitutional right for all American women. Such human equality is fundamental to America's very identity as a nation, and it is a universal human right.
Therefore, it is past time for the United States government to pass and endorse the Equal Rights Amendment (E.R.A.) to guarantee such Constitutional equality for women. Every day, women in our armed forces (over 200,000) and other branches of our government work to defend a Constitution of the United States, where their inherent equality is not guaranteed. The women of America deserve better and it is our responsibility to ensure their full Constitutional equality.
To those of you unfamiliar with the Equal Rights Amendment, I urge you to read what it actually states. It states that: "Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex. The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article. This amendment shall take effect two years after the date of ratification."
The Equal Rights Amendment's wording reflects the Constitutional language of the 19th Amendment which states: "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."
Some will continue to make arguments that such U.S. Constitutional equality for women should not be supported through the Equal Rights Amendment because they are concerned about the impacts of such an amendment on American society. We have heard this before. Arguments against a Constitutional amendment on women's rights as a threat to American "civilization" have been made many times - as they were against the 19th Amendment to the Constitution – giving American women the right to vote.
Those who sought to deny women the right to vote claimed that the 19th Amendment would lead to war, would undermine America's national security, would create "mental disorder" in women, would lead to voter fraud by women, and would undoubtedly threaten women's health as they were too "fragile" to vote. Those who sought to deny women the right to vote claimed that the 19th Amendment "would produce a nation of transvestites," and would result in the "resignation of manhood." Despite the claims of those who opposed the 19th Amendment, America commemorates Women's Equality Day on August 26th, remembering those American legislators and states that had the courage of their convictions to act and ensure women the right to vote through the 19th Amendment, which was finally ratified on August 18, 1920.
It is past time to complete the unfinished business on women's Constitutional equality in America. The 19th Amendment was first ratified by Illinois, yet the Equal Rights Amendment has still not been ratified by Illinois and 14 other states today, including Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Nevada, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Utah, and Virginia. Women's equality is a universal human right, under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which the United States joined in adopting as part of the United Nations. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights specifically recognizes "equal rights of men and women." In recognition of these universal human rights, we urge our fellow Americans to support the Equal Rights Amendment. We ask President Obama to ask his fellow citizens in Illinois and around the country, when will they ratify the Equal Rights Amendment? In the interim, we urge President Obama to show historic initiative by declaring an Executive Order recognizing the equality of women in America.
In our generational defiance of the misogynist hate against women around the world, America cannot afford to allow any exceptions, starting at home. We cannot allow the continuing failure to have Constitutional equality of women in America as a rationalization to justify oppression of women in America or anywhere in the world.
A Global Defiance Against Misogyny – No Exceptions, No Excuses, No Rationalizations
Of all the forms of institutionalized hate that our society faces today, none is more self-destructive to the continuing survival of the fabric of humanity than the hatred of women, or misogyny.
Yet we see increasing misogynist murders, violence, hate, oppression, and intolerance growing around the world. It is our responsibility to consistently and unceasingly defy such hate and violence against women. We cannot leave such a world of misogyny as the legacy of our generation to our daughters, sisters, and women of the world.
If we continue to expect the least from others regarding hate and violence against women, that is precisely what we will get. It is time to stop expecting the least from others in America and around the world regarding misogyny, and start demanding the most in terms of consistent equality, freedom, and respect for women.
How do we change public attitudes on misogyny? We start with ourselves, our families, our neighbors, our cities, our nation, and then reach out towards the rest of the world. We start by expecting equality for women in the workplace, in our Constitution, in our government, and in society. We start by rejecting the idea that women are second-class citizens or second-class human beings in America or anywhere in the world. We consciously choose a global defiance against misogynist hate – no exceptions, no excuses, and no rationalizations. We recognize misogynist activities as precisely what they are - hate crimes.
We need to set a new standard of public rejection of misogyny as something that is always unacceptable, just as racism and any other form of institutionalized hate is always unacceptable. In the United States, our national priorities, funding, and programs must be geared to promote equality for women and to consistently defy misogyny.
In our foreign relations, we must show a zero tolerance for misogyny, especially institutionalized misogyny. Those nations whose leaders and governments tolerate or support hate and violence against women are rogue nations that are not, will not, and must not ever be viewed as "allies" of the United States of America. Terrorism against women is nothing less than a declaration of war against half of humanity itself.
The New York Times recently reported that the "global statistics on the abuse of girls are numbing. It appears that more girls and women are now missing from the planet, precisely because they are female, than men were killed on the battlefield in all the wars of the 20th century. The number of victims of this routine 'gendercide' far exceeds the number of people who were slaughtered in all the genocides of the 20th century."
U.S. taxpayer dollars and U.S. corporate investment must not reward nations with institutionalized hate against women. But it does today and that must change. While some may view such a change as "radical," our generation must develop a culture that holds equality, freedom, and respect towards women as a basic standard of civilized human behavior. We cannot continue to look the other way as women are murdered, mutilated, raped, and oppressed around the world. We must develop a culture where such equality and liberty is a priority in who and what we are, not just as individuals, not just as a nation, but also in the way we relate politically and economically with the rest of the world.
Our tolerance of the oppression of girls and women in Communist China, in Saudi Arabia, and in too many nations around the world is a legacy that we must change. In our international relations, too often we have allowed continued support of those nations that practice institutionalized hate against women, with the rationalization that we have had to make the best of bad choices. But those bad choices set an example of how much misogyny we will tolerate, we will accept, and we will appease. It sends a very clear message that human rights are not our top priority, and may even be our last priority. Human rights are never our last priority; they are always are the first priority for humanity. The dark chapter in our history that has consciously ignored such oppression of the world's women, while doing business and funding some of the world's worst oppressors of women's rights must come to an end, so that we can forward together to bring equality and liberty to women around the world.
Men and women together must recognize that our "standard of living" is only as great as our "standard of human rights." It is our standard of human rights that defines whether we are or are not a civilized people.
We can't buy back the human rights violations of women around the world. No material creature comforts, momentary pleasure, or economic prosperity will ever justify one moment of inequality, degradation, oppression, or violence against women. We need to come to the societal realization that we can't put a price on hate and violence against women. We need to come to the realization that no productive foreign policy, no productive national security tactic, and no political objectives of free people are ever advanced by ignoring hate and violence against women.
Our Responsibility for Women's Equality and Liberty
Let us not deny who and what we are collectively. Collectively, we are the ones that create the governments of the world. Collectively, we are ones that form the corporations of the world. Collectively, we are the races, religions, conscience, and nations of the world. This is not someone else's responsibility. This is our responsibility for women's equality and liberty. It is our personal responsibility to challenge those who would justify or rationalize hate, violence, and oppression against women.
But if we are not consistent in our defiance against misogyny, then we will simply tell those who hate women that we just don't tolerate hate against women in SOME instances. That is the societal change we must affect in our generation. A zero tolerance policy against misogyny must challenge hate against women consistently and globally.
Without a culture of zero tolerance against misogyny where will our society end up? Reports from around the world give us a preview of the inhumanity that continues to grow on a daily basis against women. Misogynist hate seeks to dehumanize women either through acts of war or acts of oppression.
According to V-Day reports on the Congo war, "[a]n estimated 5 million people have died here since 1996, with over 250,000 victims of rape." U.S. Department of State Secretary Hillary Clinton recently reported from a trip to the Congo: "Women and girls in particular have been victimized on an unimaginable scale, as sexual and gender-based violence has become a tactic of war and has reached epidemic proportions. Some 1,100 rapes are reported each month, with an average of 36 women and girls raped every day."
This misogyny against women in Africa includes the use of rape as acts of war by military and terrorist organizations. Regarding the ongoing war in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), the United Nations reports that "the Congolese army, security sector personnel, and several armed groups still use sexual violence as a weapon of war in the DRC. Further, international actors, including UN personnel, have been implicated in perpetrating sexual violence in the DRC." While the United States is providing funding for medical care and support for rape victims in the Congo, it must also set expectations for President Kabila to prosecute Congo military involved in such sexual violence, and UN Secretary Ban to ensure action against any UN personnel involved in such sexual violence. The violence in the Congo is linked to violence in Sudan (where a human genocide continues to rage) and Uganda on its borders. In addition, these rapes are also performed by the Uganda rebel terrorist organization, the "Lords Resistance Army" (LRA). The LRA terrorist organization claims to seek to create theocratic state based on the Ten Commandments, while murdering and raping other Christians and destroying their churches. In addition to setting expectations for the Congo and UN leaders, we must have a continued commitment against the LRA Ugandan terrorist organization, and Christian organizations must publicly and aggressively reject the actions of the LRA. The continuing conflicts in the Congo, Uganda, and Sudan must be a priority for Africans, Christians, Muslims and human beings around the world.
The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has been described by one Muslim woman as the "world's largest prison for women," but the endless reports of misogynist abuses by government officials and Saudi clerics has not impacted our continuing trade or support for the misogynist government of Saudi Arabia. Some human rights organizations even continue to seek funding from within Saudi Arabia, while Saudi Arabia continues to refuse to end its segregation and oppression of women and it refuses to end child marriages. Women who have managed to escape outside of Saudi Arabia file for asylum from Saudi Arabia's misogynist laws, including their fear of being stoned to death. The Saudi prison state is hardly unique in the Middle East and Asia in terms of oppression of women. Iran continues to hold women in prison for their religious beliefs, allows raping of women prisoners, and has a long history of oppression and violence against women, including stoning, with women such as Sakine Mohammadi Ashtiani awaiting death by stoning.
Across the Middle East, so-called "honor killings" of women are rampant with limited punishment of those who commit such violence, with Syria recently deciding to increase the penalty for murdering of "honor killing" of a woman from one year to merely two years in prison. In Iraq, women are not protected as rape victims, and the "honor killing" of an Iraqi woman is punishable by three to six months in prison, resulting in the creation of an "underground railroad" for Iraqi women to try to escape. In Afghanistan, the government recently adopted a law permitting starvation of a Shiite Muslim woman if she doesn't provide sex to her husband, while one cleric in Afghanistan defends marital rape as a "democratic right." We are told by the news media that women have been prevented from voting due to the absence of segregated voting booths, rationalized by one newspaper as merely "strict cultural norms." Women continue to live in terror in Afghanistan and Pakistan, where women are routinely murdered, mutilated, sprayed with acid, and raped based on the rationalization that they deserved to die for committing some "offense" against Islam. Generations of women have gotten so used to being beaten, abused and killed that some don't even know there is anything wrong with it.
The cancer of this misogynist hate has spread from Africa's Somalia (where a 13-year-old girl was stoned to death for the "crime" of being raped, while 1,000 watched) to Europe's Turkey (where 25 percent of the population approves of "honor killings"). Furthermore, such "honor killings" and violence against women has spread throughout all of Europe, the United Kingdom, and into the United States of America (Indianapolis, Atlanta, Dallas, Cleveland, Buffalo). Nor is this violence restricted only to Muslim women, as Christian women in the Middle East and Asia are frequent targets of such hate. Egyptian Christian women are kidnapped, raped, and forced to convert to Islam. Pakistani Christian women are tortured, stripped, raped, and burned alive by Muslims in Pakistan. This global violence against women must be a priority for Muslims, Christians, and human beings around the world.
The consistent denial by world governments on such misogynist threats against women can be seen this week in Russia, where on Monday, August 24, 2009, Reuters reported on Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's visit to support Chechen President Ramzan Kadyrov. Kadyrov has been denounced by human rights organizations for Chechnya's history of killings and kidnapping of human rights activists. Responsible for Equality And Liberty has criticized Kadyrov since our March 2009 protest at the U.S. Capitol on International Women's Day for his support for "honor killings" of women in Chechnya. On February 28, 2009, AP reported that "the bullnecked president of Chechnya emerged from afternoon prayers at the mosque and with chilling composure explained why seven young women who had been shot in the head deserved to die.
Ramzan Kadyrov said the women, whose bodies were found dumped by the roadside, had 'loose morals' and were rightfully shot by male relatives in honor killings." On April 7, 2009, Interfax reported that Kadyrov justified murdering women who were "promiscuous." Yet Russian Prime Minister Putin openly and publicly supports Ramzan Kadyrov, with no visible outcry from international women's groups, no denunciations by the U.S. government, and no protests (yet) at the Russian Embassy. Some view supporting Kadyrov as the best of bad choices. But if we believe in women's equality and liberty as a priority, we must always and consistently object to institutionalized and government support of misogyny. Turning a blind eye to hate and violence against women will never ensure security for Russia or any nation.
The magnitude of this problem cannot be effectively communicated in this brief article. At Responsible for Equality And Liberty's website on such violence, I was recently asked for the web link on the initial report on Buffalo's Aasiya Zubair Hassan in mid-February and I discovered that we have 12 pages of headlines on such attacks in the past six months alone. These are more than merely tragic statistics of a continuing horror story of institutionalized misogynist violence against women. Each attack was against a unique and individual girl or woman who was someone's mother, daughter, sister, and they were loved, special human beings. But this consistent, global war against women has yet to be prioritized by the national news media. Such hate crimes against women are not yet a consistent priority of much of the mainstream news media. This is precisely what we must change in being responsible for women's equality and liberty.
Empowering Each Other to Stand United for Women's Equality and Liberty
The problem we face in challenging misogynist hate demands accountability from the governments we elect, and the nations, races, and religious organizations we belong to. We can bring change to our culture in support of women's equality and liberty, but we must expect a "standard of human rights" that respects women's equality, liberty, and dignity from all of the organizations that we are part of as individuals.
Women deserve better than this. We must resolve to make such hate and violence against women a consistent priority for human rights groups, for women's groups, and for each other as individuals.
We must remember that our struggle against misogynist hate and violence is based on our love for one another as fellow human beings, and not become desensitized and demoralized to believe that misogynist terrorism is nothing but statistics that we feel hopeless to change. We must remember who and what we are working for – equality and liberty of women and each other as individual human beings. But most of all we must work to build communities of love, building relationships with others to share our commitment for equality and liberty for women and each other. People empower us – people inspire us – and people move us to action. This is why we must work first in building communities of those who share our love for humanity to organize our efforts and keep working towards defending the human rights of women and all people.
Together, we can be Responsible for Equality And Liberty.
FamilySecurityMatters.org Contributing Editor Jeffrey Imm, formerly of the FBI, has his own counterterrorism research web site at UnitedStatesAction.com and is a part of the Anti-Jihad League of America. He also heads Responsible for Equality And Liberty.
I was so impressed and moved
I was so impressed and moved by this article. There were so many new insights + connections in it for people like FFI-visitors.
It’s goal is so simple, yet only fair, and capable of giving us passion. And yes, equal rights of women in the end would probably bring us much more stability, peace. We firmly believe that women, who are autonomous, well educated, capable their whole life to provide for themselves, those women will only get a few children. And those children will be cared for properly, by society.
Now the frustrating situation seems to be that exactly those women, who are raised to be subservient sheep, totally dependent on men, commandeered by men, those women (are forced to) get the most children. So that in this way, the mentality of THEIR men seems to be expanded most. So of men that are mysogenistic, male chauvinist, patriarchalist. And on top of that of men who often are also Islam-supremacist, with the intention of creating theocratic states, implementing forced sharia-law.
And these men are not mindful of the obvious fact that in order for children to have a prosperous and happy youth you need a certain number of adults to support this, so you need a good ratio of children-adults, so you need family-planning, as voluntarily practiced in Europe-America-Canada-Europe + many other countries already and in China even obligatory. And we now know that, if large groups of society are young men, in poverty, with low chances, that that is dangerous, they can be very unreasonable because of youth, but very impetuous, full of hormones, energy, and be very aggressive.
But it is important that we reassure most Muslims we are not targeting them with this article, only a relatively small part of them. But many of us are puzzled why the majority of Muslims do stay so silent about these matters.
The real equality of women
The real equality of women will continue to be a pipe-dream when a retrogressive, misogynist and patriarchal religion like Islam is allowed to flaunt human rights under the shelter of freedom of religion. It is this shelter that still permits atrocities like FGM, honor killings and child marriages.
Until there is real reform in Islam from within, this sad blot on human rights will continue to haunt us. I don't see this happening any time soon.
SHAFEE AL ZINDIG wrote: The
SHAFEE AL ZINDIG wrote: The real equality of women will continue to be a pipe-dream when a retrogressive, misogynist and patriarchal religion like Islam is allowed to flaunt human rights under the shelter of freedom of religion. It is this shelter that still permits atrocities like FGM, honor killings and child marriages.
ANSWER: The author of this post is giving an insight to what is happening around the world and how only in 1920's did america give rights to woman for voting and so on.
Why the hell you blaming islam for FGM, honour killings and child marragies. What makes you think islam teaches it. Could you prove with a single verse from the quran that proves any such tings.
Child marragies and honour killings and FGM is practised more in hinduism and sikhism than in islam. Yet you blame islam for it. It is so absurd how these things take influence.
Lets see your proof mr. al zindig.
An excellent article.
An excellent article.
An excellent article. well
An excellent article.
well thought out and well presented.
Here's something about
Here's something about LRA:
The Lord's Resistance Army (also Lord's Resistance Movement or Lakwena Part Two) is a sectarian guerrilla army based in northern Uganda.
The group was formed in 1987 and is engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government in what is now one of Africa's longest-running conflicts. It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the "spokesperson" of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the Holy Spirit, which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations.[3] The group adheres to a syncretistic[4] blend of Christianity, Mysticism,[5] traditional religion,[6] and witchcraft,[7] and claims to be establishing a theocratic state based on the Ten Commandments and Acholi tradition.[3][8][9][10] The LRA is accused of widespread human rights violations, including murder, abduction, mutilation, sexual enslavement of women and children, and forcing children to participate in hostilities.[11] The LRA operates mainly in northern Uganda, but also in parts of Sudan and DR Congo.[12][13]
The leader of LRA sounds like another Muhammed and adheres to beliefs that are incompatible and blasphemous in Orthodox Christianity. This is not a Christian sect and no denomination that I know of would support these people. As far as I'm concern this group is nothing but a bunch of devils.
Great article.
Kabirlaw: "Why the hell you
Kabirlaw: "Why the hell you blaming islam for FGM, honour killings and child marragies. What makes you think islam teaches it. Could you prove with a single verse from the quran that proves any such tings."
Actions speak louder than grand, empty words. Should I believe someone like you who lives in blind denial or the millions of pious Muslims throughout the whole world who are actually practising these atrocities in the name of Islam? I have never heard of Hindus and Sikhs practising these revolting things - only Muslims. If any deviants from these religions do such things, they are doing so against the spirit of their religions and are harshly condemned by their fellow coreligionists who do not make pathetic excuses for them.
Surely you are not going to tell me that the Quran is the sole source of cruel Shariah laws. Have you forgotten the Sirat and the Hadiths which form an integral part of Islam?
Try convincing you fellow Muslims to stop doing these things, and then I will believe you.
Shafee-al-Zindiq, You seem
Shafee-al-Zindiq,
You seem to have confused LondonSpirit with Kabirlaw, well they are 2 of a kind.
I believe that they are sincere in their defence of Islam. And I know that LS especially defends primarily the Quran. He told us his rule about the Hadith is that he only believes those that are not in contradiction to the Quran. So that could explain the difference we time and again see between the theories of LS and KL and the practice in the Islamic world, and even in Islamic communities in Western countries and India.
I was in agreement with you that this practice is what really counts and what you said about that. It seems LS + KL do not read the loads of the evidence that is presented here on FFI, how Islam is practiced, not just how it should be in theory. For instance it was reported that an 80-year-old-man received his 10-year-old-bride back from her father in an Islamic country. Such reports are very frequent and will remain frequent for a long time.
It is very hard for me to deal honestly with these conflicting informations; real everyday Islamic practice and Islamic theory.
To Shafee Al Zindig Dude, I
To Shafee Al Zindig
Dude, I ain't said nuttin to ya.
But nice biased and double standard response to LS though.
Demsci Oops! Many thanks for
Demsci
Oops! Many thanks for correcting me that the actual comment was from Londonspirit and not Kabirlaw. Sorry Kabirlaw for the confusion in names. The rest of my response stands.
Yes Demsci, you are also correct that many Muslims who fancy themselves as progressives don't want to know about real Islam as taught and practised daily by their moolas. They prefer to lie to themselves and believe in some mythical version of Islam that has never existed in history. The worst part is that they then try to deceive the rest of us.
The Quran-only Muslims should first try to convince their fellow Muslims. When they do and not get killed as blasphemers, then I will believe them. Do you remember the sad fate of Rashad Khalifa who was murdered in the heartland of America by his fellow traditional Muslims for saying the same thing? Can you imagine guys like Londonspirit trying the same in a Muslim country and living to brag about it?
Thanks again.
A short conversation between
A short conversation between person A and B:
- Person A: Hey, your dad is a criminal, what say of you?
- Person B: No way, he's a good man. How dare you insult my beloved, gentle, great, and caring dad.
- Person A: Don't believe me? Go see for yourself. The news about your dad did horrible things is in tv, radio, newspaper, and internet. He robbed, killed, tortured, and insulted many people.
- Person B: No way (again), my dad would never do that. I read his diary and he was a good man. There were no such words in his diary that told him or me to do that. Here read it yourself.
- Person A: In his second diary there are many words describing his lust to do all this crimes.
- Person B: No way (again the 3rd times), That diary was written by my mother about the deeds of my dad. Maybe there are fakes words in that or because another woman wrote that. I believe firmly to my dad's first diary.
- Person A: Another woman? How?
- Person B: Well....ehm....you know....i don't really know my dad, maybe he had another woman and that woman hated my dad because of my mother and framed him.
- Person A: You don't know your dad? Do you ever met him?
- Person B: No, i just heard about my father from my mother, his old photo and his diaries. He left my mom when i was 1 months old. Is there something wrong?
- Person A: Yes, there is!! a lot!!! How did you know your dad is good, gentle, or caring?
- Person B: Ehmmm, from the diaries and from my mother. She always tell me that when i want to go to sleep.
- Person A: Wow, you got issues man. And how did you know that another woman rewrite that 2nd diary. Do you have any proof?
- Person B: I don't have any proof, but my mother ensures me everyday . That's enough for me.
- Person A: You are total moron. (whispering)
- Person B: What did you say? I couldn't hear you clearly.
- Person A: No, nothing at all. Ok, back to reality. About your father's news....
- Person B: No way (again for the 4th times). I won't see that news. My father's diary is enough for me. Go away!!
- Person A: But, your father is in the news right now. Look!!! He did another crime again and escaped.
- Person B: Nooooo!!!!!! That's not my father!!!!
- Person A: But his face looks exactly the same with the old photo and his name is really your father.
- Person B: Noooo!!!! my father would never do that, no wayyyy!!!!! Nooo!!! Go away you fiend!!!!!
- Person A: Oh, man you are really need your eyes checked or maybe your brain.
- Person B: You devil!!! You tried to framed my beloved, caring, gentle and good father (in his imagination). I'll beat you right now!!!! i'll kill you!!!!
- Person A: Help...help... someone wants to kill me!! help!!! AAARRRGGHHH!!
.......(sound of police cars arriving at the scene)
Moral lesson:
- A child always imitates his father.
- Stop living in lies and books.
shafee al sindig, "Can you
shafee al sindig,
"Can you imagine guys like Londonspirit trying the same in a Muslim country and living to brag about it?"
I'm looking forward to see that. Talk less, more action. Pick your favourite country: Saudi arabia, iran, iraq, afghanistan, pakistan, somalia, libya, egypt, jordania, etc, etc. Come on, no need to shy.
The problem with this polemic
The problem with this polemic is that it plays into the hands of lunatic feminists who demand "equality" out of one side of their mouths, while insisting on special treatment of women out of the other. Woman can do anything men can do, these nutters claim--and then force the military to lower physical standards to permit women to pass various trength tests. Women pilots of fighter aircraft are treated with ikd gloves-they are essentially unwashoutable--unless they crash more than once.
On the other hand, women are too weak to stand sexual inuendoes in the workplace that men take for granted.
So what is missing in theis clarion call is an admission that men and women are different, and that these differences cannot be legislated away. Equality before the law is the only realistic standard--not, as feminists insiste--equal outcome.
Until we cqan have a frank discussion along these lines, recognizing sex differences, all the social engineering in the world isn't going to anything excepot make thinking people angry that they are being taken for a ride by just another special interest group.
SHAFEE AL ZINDG: I have never
SHAFEE AL ZINDG: I have never heard of Hindus and Sikhs practising these revolting things – only Muslims.
ANSWER: Obviously the medias focal point is not what people of other faiths do but of what muslims do. And DEMSCI this site just picks out what muslims do and not what people of other faiths do. If i was like DR ALI SINA I could make a site exactly like this and just concentrate on what people of other faiths do. Let me just give you a brief introduction of what can be achieved if you just focus on a particular sect. I will just focus on actions of two days of this month, so that is 28-30 august 2009.
30 august 2009
Girl found strangled in lorry
A nine-year-old girl was found strangled in a lorry cab shortly before police discovered a man hanged in nearby woodland.The girl and the man cannot be named at this stage but police said the man was the partner of the girl's mother.
Peodophilia done by a christian man.
30 august 2009
Police extend US kidnap inquiry
Police working on the Jaycee Lee Dugard kidnap case have extended their inquiry to the house next door to the property where she was held for 18 years.Phillip Garrido, who is accused of abducting Ms Dugard aged 11, reportedly took care of the next-door house before the current resident moved in.He and his wife Nancy deny 29 charges in connection with the case.Mr Garrido is believed to have fathered Ms Dugard's two children, the first when she was just 14.she is believed to have been living in tents and sheds in the backyard of the Garridos' Antioch home for 18 years
Pedophilia done again by christians
LETS LOOK AT HONOUR KILLINGS
In India, for example, more than 5,000 brides die annually because their dowries are considered insufficient, according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF). Crimes of passion, which are treated extremely leniently in Latin America, are the same thing with a different name, some rights advocates say.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling...
5000 brides. These are hindus as large dowry payments by the brides family is practised in hindusim. So In india alone 14 brides are being honour killed per day.
14 PER DAY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND SHAFEE AL ZINDG. DO YOU SEE IT PRACTICED IN HINDUSIM. DOES MEDIA REPORT THIS OR DOES ALI SINA REPORT THIS. NOOOOOOOOOOOO. SO IN THE LAST TWO DAYS 28 GIRLS HAS BEEN HONOUR KILLED IN INDIA ALONE.
LETS LOOK AT
Londonspirit (I hope I got
Londonspirit (I hope I got the name right this time):
Firstly let’s clarify two things - a bridal dowry killing is not the same thing as an honor-killing, although both are equally reprehensible. Secondly I am a freethinker and belong to no religion.
Yes I agree with you that bridal burnings among some backward Hindus because of insufficient dowries is a cruel practice and is a gross infringement of human rights. So is the unsavory practice of aborting female babies. So is the caste system an infringement of human rights.
Contrary to your claims I have found many media reports condemning these barbaric practices from East to West. In India alone, all major newspapers and TV stations, even Bollywood movies and stars, harshly criticize these practices and have called loudly for its banning and the culprits to be punished. Even Mahatma Gandhi and many other prominent Hindus, too numerous to mention here, have spoken out. None of them have ever justified these atrocities as divinely sanctioned.
The two shocking cases of pedophilia mentioned by you were not done in the name of Christianity and are against the spirit of modern Christian teachings. There is also no proof that the perpetrators who did these foul deeds did so in the name of Christianity. None of them justified their crimes as divinely sanctioned or claimed that Jesus (or Isa if you prefer) told them to do it. You will not find any Christian clerics condoning their actions either. When found guilty all of them will be very harshly punished.
When ordinary decent Muslim individuals and countries also start speaking out against FGM, honor-killings and child marriages, then Islam will get more respect from people like me who don’t hate all Muslims, only the evil ones. Instead all I have heard so far are whining what-about this and what-about that’s.
SHAFEE AL ZINDG WROTE:
SHAFEE AL ZINDG WROTE: Contrary to your claims I have found many media reports condemning these barbaric practices from East to West. In India alone, all major newspapers and TV stations, even Bollywood movies and stars, harshly criticize these practices and have called loudly for its banning and the culprits to be punished. Even Mahatma Gandhi and many other prominent Hindus, too numerous to mention here, have spoken out. None of them have ever justified these atrocities as divinely sanctioned.
ANSWER: Well Mr. Zindg contrary to your claims I hvae yet to find a single verse fro mthe quran that says to perform honour killings. Stop showing double standards. The quran clearly states that anyone who kills anyone with no reason is like killing the whole of mankind. This law was stated 1400 years ago and this law of islam still stands today and will stand in the future.
And now if someone performs honour killings is that due to islam teaching it. Why dont you show me from the quran where it allows child marragie, honour killings and any other barbaric acts. Go on be a man and in your next post prove me wrong by stating different verses from the quran that allows this.
Let me finish what i was saying before
IN REGARDS TO CHILD MARRAIGE
IN CHRISTIANITY
Until 2008, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, practiced child marriage through the concept 'spiritual (religious only) marriages,' as soon as girls are ready to bear children, as part of its polygamy practice and laws have raised the age of legal marriage in response to criticism of the practice.[citation needed] In 2008, the Church changed its policy in the United States to no longer marry individuals younger than the local legal age.[citation needed]
In 2007, church leader Warren Jeffs was convicted of being an accomplice to statutory rape of a minor due to arranging a marriage between a 14-year-old girl and a 19-year-old man.[13] In March 2008, the state of Texas believed that children at the Yearning For Zion Ranch were being married to adults and were being abused.[14] The state of Texas removed all 468 children from the ranch and placed them into temporary state custody.[14] FLDS denied the charges. The charges were eventually dropped in court as there was no solid evidence in support of this, and it was determined that the state entered the ranch illegally.[citation needed]
IN HINDUSIM
India
In an effort to curb the practice of child marriages the states of Rajasthan, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Karnataka and Himachal Pradesh have passed laws that mandate the registration of all marriages in order to make it a valid marriage.[citation needed] However, mass marriages that involve children are frequently ignored by authorities.[6]
According to “National Plan of Action for Children 2005,” (published by the Department of Women and Child Development of India) a goal has been set to eliminate child marriage completely by 2010. This plan is proving to be successful, though it is still difficult to monitor every child due to the sheer population of India.[7]
According to UNICEF’s “State of the World’s Children-2009” report, 47% of India's women aged 20–24 were married before the legal age of 18, with 56% in rural areas.[8] The report also showed that 40% of the world's child marriages occur in India.[9]
I can state more and more. But tell me SHAFI AL ZINDG, Have i showed you information that you previously didnt know. Hvae you been living in cuku land for the entire of your life that you could make statements such as:
I have never heard of Hindus and Sikhs practising these revolting things – only Muslims.
I CAN STATE YOU MANY MORE THINGS THAT HAPPEN TODAY, TIME DOESNT PERMIT ME TO DO SO AS I HAVE OTHER THINGS TO DO. WHY DONT YOU INSTEAD OF CONSTANTLY LISTENING TO MEDIA JUST DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH AND MAYBE YOU WILL BE ENLIGHTENED ON THE FACT THAT ATROCITIES ARE COMMITED BY PEOPLE OF OTHER FAITHS.
Wow, LondonSpirit, you said
Wow, LondonSpirit, you said many good things that deserve to be examined and well thought about and answered. Thanks for the effort and respect you gave us.
Yeah, the change of Christianity did not go overnight, but do you think it went smooth/ peacefully? I think it too happened accompanied with great emotions, hatred, much violence, from both individuals and states.
You are right about all the other news and the selectiveness of the news here on FFI/ Islam Watch/ Jihad Watch. In the past you have also often been very informative about history, facts, perspectives that we did not like, but were nevertheless at least partly true or relevant.
That is why I have ceased to think of Islam is somehow worse than other religions/ ways of life. But instead that Islam only is not superior. And the followers of other beliefs should have equal power, rights, opportunities in Islamic countries. The majority of the articles here are about what happens in Islamic countries.
But you plead for time, that sounds reasonable. But we cannot give you silence about what Muslims do, sorry. That would only play into the hands of our real enemies; the Theocrats, Mysogynists. You “ordinary, innocent” muslims are almost never the target. We just feel that you should speak out more, against the Theocrats/ Mysogynists.
And that would benefit you ordinary Muslims a lot in the long run. It would take a lot of the legitimacy, motivation, material out from what FFI is doing now. But right now, the grave injustices that we are told about Radical Islam alone are ample justification of what this site does, to me. Because of silence/ lack of response by the ordinary Muslims it has resorted to its current path of exposing what it can about Islam; its teachings, its interpretations, the behavior of its “worst followers”, which you so hate.
Maybe it is a hard but essentially peaceful phase we all must go through, like so many people that opposed each other before and are now on the best of terms.
Londonspirit: Don't run away
Londonspirit:
Don't run away - I am just getting warmed up.
All of the examples you have mentioned above are shocking. These examples also show that prosecutions and other actions are being taken to stop these outrages because they are considered as crimes.
On the other hand FGM, child-marriages and honor-killings are protected in many Islamic countries as they are considered part of Shariah and it is not permissible to criticize or even do anything about it as Allah and Muhammad sanctioned it. In fact, the more Islamic the country, the more rigidly these laws are practised.
You should be directing your anger at them and not those compassionate people like us who want to see it end. For example, you could ask the randy 80 year old lecher in Saudi Arabia, in the heart of Islam, to quote you Quranic verses to excuse his actions. You will be shocked at his answer. You could also try asking all the muftis, imams, ayatollahs. sheiks, moolas and moulanas asking them for Quranic verses. Best of luck and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that maybe you will be able to persuade them. Somehow I doubt it and fear for your safety. Don't blame me when they lock you up after 200 lashes.
Speaking of living in cookoo-land, at least I don't blindly believe that the contradictory Quran is from God or that jinns and angels exist (show me just one feather - and don't try and bluff me by showing me a vulture or eagle feather.
Oh, LS, those of the latter
Oh, LS,
those of the latter day saints I think they are the Mormons, they are not considered to be Christians by the Americans. they follow a man named Joseph Smith, later their leader was Brigham Young. They are notorious for their polygamy. Their headquarters are in Salt Lake City, in Utah.
You have convinced me about the universality of human misbehavior. But another possible strategy of FFI might be to only prove Islam is no exemption, not any better, not relevant, effective in doing positive actions that followers of other faiths could not also do. Not effective in preventing amongst its followers the same universal mischief others perpetrate.
And we all know of the propaganda by other Muslims who vilify the followers of other beliefs like the Jews. It is massive in Islamic countries. In part your information comes from that propaganda too. (Another part of course is rooted in facts). But the point is that FFI is only balancing the information-flow. This is needed very hard, in my view, to give us information about the other, shadowy, side of Islam, the part that is dictatorial, mysogenistic. The part in which is shown the reality, not the theory of Islam. And there are plenty people like you who paint the good side of Islam, which we acknowledge also.
Kabir don't forget we still
Kabir don't forget we still have a debate to finish.
SHAFEE AL ZINDG WROTE: All of
SHAFEE AL ZINDG WROTE: All of the examples you have mentioned above are shocking. These examples also show that prosecutions and other actions are being taken to stop these outrages because they are considered as crimes.
ANSWER: wait a minute you said that these acts dosnt happen in other religions and i just proved to you that it happens more in other religions than islam. And the statement that you made in regards to the fact that child marraiges and honour killings doesnt happen outside of islam would be done by a dumb stupid person who has no concerns of what goes on outside his world or a person that is a lier. YOU AL ZINDG IS ONE OR THE OTHER, BECAUSE ANY LAME MAN WOULDNT MAKE SUCH POWERFUL STATEMENTS.
SHAFEE AL ZINDG WROTE:On the other hand FGM, child-marriages and honor-killings are protected in many Islamic countries as they are considered part of Shariah and it is not permissible to criticize or even do anything about it as Allah and Muhammad sanctioned it
ANSWER: Again no proof but speaking from own uneducated interllect
lets look at countries that operate shariah law
YEMEN
Under the new amendments, children younger than 17 iares not allowed to marry unless it is deemed by a judge to be in their best interests
http://infidelsarecool.com/2009/02/24/yemen-outlawing-child-marriages-vi...
SAUDIA ARABIA
Saudi mulls marriage ban for girls under 18
The Saudi government is working on new regulations to impose a minimum age for marrying to prevent child weddings, the head of the official Human Rights Commission said on Sunday.
http://business.maktoob.com/20090000006402/Saudi_working_on_child_marria...
So two nations who practice chariah law compliently have now banned child marriages. So again you speak of no proof.
Ihave already explained honour killings using verse of the quran. So now I again request from you SHAFEE AL ZINDG PROOF OF YOUR CLAIMS. THIS IS THE SECOND TIME I AM ASKING FOR PROOF.
Londo spirtus, You still
Londo spirtus,
You still haven't given me the verses. Keep running, big mouth.
"The part in which is shown
"The part in which is shown the reality, not the theory of Islam. And there are plenty people like you who paint the good side of Islam, which we acknowledge also."
Demsci, It's useless talking to a moron (you know who) who knows nothing about reality. About the theory, do you know why there are so many sects of islam?
Demsci, "You “ordinary,
Demsci,
"You “ordinary, innocent” muslims are almost never the target."
I doubt that "ordinary innocent" thing. The only innocent are hypocrites and non practicing muslims. On the contrary they are the target in this site (to abandon this cult of death)
"We just feel that you should speak out more, against the Theocrats/ Mysogynists."
Muslim always want sharia law which means they are never againts theocrats/mysogynists. Your words were too naive.
Londonspirit I see that you
Londonspirit
I see that you are still blatantly and dishonestly quoting what I originally said by ripping it out of context. This is something you Islamic apologists self-righteously accuse us of doing when we quote your Quran. To refresh your memory, here is what my full comment said:
" I have never heard of Hindus and Sikhs practising these revolting things – only Muslims. If any deviants from these religions do such things, they are doing so against the spirit of their religions and are harshly condemned by their fellow coreligionists who do not make pathetic excuses for them.
Let me repeat that last sentence in capital letters in case you missed it in your unseemly haste to rebut the truth:
IF ANY DEVIANTS FROM THESE RELIGIONS DO SUCH THINGS, THEY ARE DOING SO AGAINST THE SPIRIT OF THEIR RELIGIONS AND ARE HARSHLY CONDEMNED BY THEIR FELLOW CORELIGIONISTS WHO DO NOT MAKE PATHETIC EXCUSES FOR THEM.
There, as you can see, is my full meaning and not what you so falsely claim I wrote.
Now as for your two disingenuous examples above, here is my response. Read again what I wrote:
"On the other hand FGM, child-marriages and honor-killings are protected in MANY Islamic countries."
Is the meaning of MANY the same as ALL in your vocabulary? Maybe you read my comments in a "bad translation" as you guys love to claim when the Quran is quoted?
Your Yemen quoted example:
"Under the new amendments, children younger than 17 iares not allowed to marry unless it is deemed by a judge to be in their best interests."'
Have you noticed the weasel words here "UNLESS IT IS DEEMED BY A JUDGE TO BE IN THEIR OWN BEST INTERESTS"
Your Saudi quoted example:
"The Saudi government is working on new regulations to impose a minimum age for marrying to prevent child weddings"
Have you noticed it nowhere says banned. They are only "WORKING ON NEW REGULATIONS." Whether the Wahabbis zealots pass the law is not a big MAYBE but a big NEVER.
Londonspirit: For your
Londonspirit:
For your edification here is a BBC news report dated August 23, 2009 displaying Islam's typical and total lack of respect for women's rights:
"MALIS PROTEST AGAINST WOMEN'S LAW
"Tens of thousands of people in Mali's capital, Bamako, have been protesting against a new law which gives women equal rights in marriage.
The law, passed earlier this month, also strengthens inheritance rights for women and children born out of wedlock.
The head of a Muslim women's association says only a minority of Malian women - "the intellectuals" as she put it - supports the law.
Several other protests have taken place in other parts of the country.
The law was adopted by the Malian parliament at the beginning of August, and has YET TO BE YET TO BE SIGNED INTO FORCE by the president.
One of the most contentious issues in the new legislation is that women are no longer required to obey their husbands.
Hadja Sapiato Dembele of the National Union of Muslim Women's Associations said the law goes against Islamic principles.
"We have to stick to the Koran," Ms Dembele told the BBC's Focus on Africa programme. "A man must protect his wife, a wife must obey her husband."
"It's a tiny minority of women here that wants this new law - the intellectuals. The poor and illiterate women of this country - the real Muslims - are against it," she added."
As everyone can see, many Muslimas themselves are their own worst enemies. These must be the type of women your prophet rightly termed "deficient in reason" This is what Islam does to once normal people.
SHAFEE AL ZINDG WROTE: I have
SHAFEE AL ZINDG WROTE: I have never heard of Hindus and Sikhs practising these revolting things – only Muslims. If any deviants from these religions do such things, they are doing so against the spirit of their religions and are harshly condemned by their fellow coreligionists who do not make pathetic excuses for them.
ANSWER: Ok its no problem for me even if you say in the full context. Yes i know muslims are commiting child marriages. Yes i know they are also doing honour killings. But the people that say we are performing this based on our beliefs i.e. ISLAM are liers and are only doing it for their own motives. And they somehow get the elders involved and persuade them to agree to their cause, which maybe to get a younger bride and so on. And as people in these nation pay great respect to the elders they agree and these things happen.
This is the reality. They do it for their own gains and bring islam into it as a big influence, as people in these region love their religion and follow it obediantly. Most people who agree to such acts are generally uneducated people and these things happen geneally to the lower working class families. Agai nthis is the reality. Now i ask for the third time. You associate these acts to islam although it happens for the same reason in all other religions but you dont show any proof that islam teaches this.
SO FOR THE THIRD SHAFEE AL ZINDG. I WANT PROOF FROM THE QURAN OF YOUR ALLEGATIONS.
SHAFFE AL ZINDG WROTE: Have you noticed the weasel words here “UNLESS IT IS DEEMED BY A JUDGE TO BE IN THEIR OWN BEST INTERESTS”
ANSWER: Why dont you look at the quote again. It says that if they are younger than 17 than judge rule is required. This same law applies in USA. Whereby gals at the age of 12 are allowed to get married in some states so long the judge rules for it.
SHAFFEE AL ZINDG WROTE: Have you noticed it nowhere says banned. They are only “WORKING ON NEW REGULATIONS.” Whether the Wahabbis zealots pass the law is not a big MAYBE but a big NEVER.
ANSWER: Mate your showing double standards again. In your previous post you wrote
Contrary to your claims I have found many media reports condemning these barbaric practices from East to West. In India alone, all major newspapers and TV stations, even Bollywood movies and stars, harshly criticize these practices and have called loudly for its banning and the culprits to be punished.
You are respecting these people who are making an effort to stop child marriage but your not respecting saudia arabia who are making new regulations to stop child marriage. PURE DOUBLE STANDARDS.
SHAFEE AL ZINDG: You have
SHAFEE AL ZINDG: You have showed a report on mali. Thanks for that. and you have stressed that
Hadja Sapiato Dembele of the National Union of Muslim Women’s Associations said the law goes against Islamic principles.
OK Firstly Mali is a Muslim dominated country. And again you show double standards. Because your not empahsizing on the fact that the goverment is trying to give woman rights, and show that woman are equal to men. The goverment are making an effort to follow the ways of the quran, the first you have mentioned is womans rights:
[3:195] Their Lord responded to them: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female - you are equal to one another. Thus, those who immigrate, and get evicted from their homes, and are persecuted because of Me, and fight and get killed, I will surely remit their sins and admit them into gardens with flowing streams." Such is the reward from GOD. GOD possesses the ultimate reward.
[2:228] The divorced women shall wait three menstruations (before marrying another man). It is not lawful for them to conceal what GOD creates in their wombs, if they believe in GOD and the Last Day. (In case of pregnancy,) the husband's wishes shall supersede the wife's wishes, if he wants to remarry her. The women have rights, as well as obligations, equitably. Thus, the man's wishes prevail (in case of pregnancy). GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
"For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in God's praise,- for them has God prepared forgiveness and great reward. (The Noble Quran, 33:35)"
[40:40] Whoever commits a sin is requited for just that, and whoever works righteousness - male or female - while believing, these will enter Paradise wherein they receive provisions without any limits.
These four verses of the quran and there are more, shows that woman are equal to men, in all terms. Allah sees men and woman equal, he doesnt give men more good deeds over a woman or vice versa. THEY ARE TREATED EQUALLY IN THE QURAN IN ALL ASPECTS.
SO PEOPLE WHO ARE PROTESTING ARE THE FOLLOWING QURAN OR IS THE GOVERMENT WHO ARE IMPLEMENTING THE LAW FOLLOWING THE QURAN?
NOW INHERITENCE
"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"
"If (there are) women (daughters) more than two, then for them two thirds of the inheritance; and if there is only one then it is half." [Quran 4:11]
"And for his parents for each of them there is one-sixth of the inheritance if he has a child, but if he does not have a child and the parents are the heirs then for the mother one-third." [Quran 4:11]
THERE ARE MANY OTHER LAWS ON INHERITENCE IN THE QURAN, JUST TOO MANY TO STATE ON HERE. SO NOW WOMAN ARE ENTITLD TO INHERITENCE. IS THE GOVERMENT OF MALI FOLLOWING ISLAMIC LAWS OR ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PROTESTING FOLLOWING ISLAMIC LAW?
Islamic laws onwomans rights were established 1400 years ago, and only in the last half century have people from different region of the laws established the same rights that quran teaches. From careful analysis i know for a fact that islam teaches that woman are equal and are subjected to their own rights. NOW THIS IS THE FOURTH TIME I AM REQUESTING FROM YOU SHAFEE ALZINDG, FIND ME VERSES IN THE QURAN THAT SUPPORT YOUR ACCUSATIONS
Londonspirit: You are here
Londonspirit:
You are here trying to dishonestly promote your own made-up, fictional and heretical version of Islam that no actual and real-life moola, imam, mufti, ayatollah, sheik or moulana supports as being truly Islamic. They all think you Quran-only people are nothing more than Muhammad-hating apostates and are doomed to hell-fire.
First try and persuade them before trying your luck here. So stop wasting my time, because my words above referred to authoritative, mainstream, traditional Islam and not your pet project. I prefer the evidence of my senses, not your grand words. Actions speak louder than words.
Londonspirit: Quoted below
Londonspirit:
Quoted below is just one example of what mainstream, orthodox and traditional Muslims think of people like you. This from one just Muslim website.
"Those "Quran-only Muslims" are just hypocrites.
They want to practice Islam the way they feel like it. Quran gives order, and the prophet showed us how.
Quran told us to pray, Sunnah explained it.
Quran told us not to deal Ribba, the prophet showed different kinds of Riba.
Quran told us to have good manners, the prophet showed how.
Quran told us to be beautiful because Allah is beautiful, the prophet showed how to be beautiful and clean.
Those Quran-Only Muslims are hypocrites because they want to take the concept, interpret the way they want, and follow it the way they want."
Visit these Muslim sites, not here and try persuading them. Best of luck.
shafee al zindg did i ever
shafee al zindg did i ever mention to you that i am only a quran person. I dont remember my self saying tat to you in anyway. I believe in the same thing as any other muslim in the fact that quran is taken as a first point of guidance as it is the most authentic source with which we muslims believe to have no mistakes an that it speaks true islam an that hadiths are also to be taken to consideration together with the seerah of the prophet. But like all any other muslims would say tat there is no way of scientifically proving which hadiths are correct an which aint. So we have to do the best we can to follow the life an example of the prophet. But why should i follow hadiths that contradict the quran. There are hadiths that say arabs are the best people on earth an there are others that say the prophet said that no arab is better than a non arab. Now here is two contradictory hadiths. Which one do i follow?. I follow the one that agrees wit the quran. Because the quran says allah created from one male an female and made into them nations so that you may recognise each other an not dispise each other. So shafee al zindg i request for the 5th time show me proof. I will make it easier for you. Show me hadiths that talk about child marriage an honour killings. An i will use hadiths to disprove your claims an using quran as my rouse.
Londonspirit This is getting
Londonspirit
This is getting really b-o-r-i-n-g. And I will repeat this to you for the 5th time - I don't have to prove anything. Ask your moolas and fellow pious Muslims - they are the ones teaching and practising this nonsense - not me. I merely made a simple observation that everyone with eyes and ears can notice about those who live Islam. Not those like you who live in denial. So let's change the subject as I am not willing or have the time to indulge your fanciful pie-in-the-sky theories about it any further.
Seeing that you brought up the subject of Adam and Eve, I have two questions of my own.
1. Are you aware that according to the latest scientific genetic research about in-breeding and its ill-effects, that Adam and Eve could never have given rise to Mankind. They would have had no viable offspring. Therefore Mankind would have died off and become extinct millennia ago.
2. The children of Adam and Eve would have had to indulge in sinful incest by having sex with one another to try and propagate the human race. Therefore why would God in His infinite wisdom use the sin of wicked incest to propagate the human species. Incest is condemned by all religions including Islam.
Would you agree that God used the natural mechanism of evolutionary natural selection to do the job? If not, why not? Prove to me that Allah and Muhammad did not lie in the Quran about the origin of the human species.
shafee al zindg you have now
shafee al zindg you have now just gone completely off the subject an now asked a totally irrelevant question to the topic. You see your only talkin about a minority of imams. I visit different mosques every year an in my 24 years on this earth i have never heard a imam or mulah say anythin in a way that may cause offence to anyone. An i have said many times the only place where u hear imams sayin kill are in 3rd world countries. An there are two reasons why this happens. 1. Because they are at war an they say to kill those as it is mentioned in the quran. Which is true because it does say in the quran to kill those in was who attack you. An america an the rest of the world in ganging up on one nation. Intruding an taking all its natural resources. So they the people in iraq fightin are they the terrorist or are the invaders the terrorist. Obviously it is not me tat is blinded it is you that is. Because your calling invaders or trespassess who are raping children an woman,gettin men to perform sex acts on other men, torturing men woman an children heroes. An your callin the people who are protecting their country an people terrorist. Pathetic or what. Its like me calling the germans in world was 2 as freedom fighters or heroes an calling the british soldiers terrorists. 2. The imams teach there bad things for their own gain an for their own benefits. It is not me in denial as i can clearly see what islam teaches an what some of there imam teaches. An you do not see it in real life. You only see what type of image the media portrays. The media is like this website it only concentrates on what muslims do but turns a blind eye to what every other people of other faiths do. I will give one example. When a muslim does an attack it say islamic terrorist or muslim extremist. But when a catholic group does terrorist attack they just say ira. No mention of christianity or catholic or any religious name. This is pure double standards. But u dont see this do you. I requested 5 times for you to bring proof an 5 times you failed. Tut tut. .
shafee al zindg your making
shafee al zindg your making the accusation an than your saying you dont have to prove anything. What kind of lame man answer is that. Any way i will answer your question easily.for first question show your proofs. Scientist are finding it difficult to relate humans to neandathols. So far they have no hard evidence that these creatures are related to us. An in the future if they cant find no relation than whole evolution theory is in vein. In regards to your second question yes incest was done to populate human race. An so what obviously allah wanted that to happen. Yes he could have easily made other beings but he didnt. Thats allahs choice. But if you say natural selection than your just believing in a theory that hasnt even been proved yet.it an a theory wish at one point well fall soon as it agrees with no laws of physics.let me ask you two questions. I will use logic an science in my question. 1 who made your mobile phone? 2. The law of thermodynamics state that energy can not be created or destroyed it can only change forms. So if that is the case where did all the energy come from that created the big bang?.
Hello, LondonSpirit, My
Hello, LondonSpirit,
My compliments about the good intentions of the governments of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Mali in a few respects. Also I like your version of Islam because parts of it seem beneficial enough.
But I agree with Shafee Al Zindiq completely that we in FFI have to deal with the real world, how Muslims really interpret and practice Islam. I remember well that the father of Nujood, 10-year-old-bride in Yemen, said he followed the Sunnah and that very recently the 80-year-old husband of a 10-year-old bribe said that Islam did not object to such a marriage. THAT to us IS evidence, but to you ignorance of these people it seems. The stream of articles, reports of FFI, IW and others IS also our evidence, in contrast to your evidence of what Islam is supposed to mean in its scriptures.
It even makes no difference if you would be right, that Muslims do what they do for their own private reasons and not because of Islam. Because they still say they do it in the name of Islam or do it while saying they are following Islam. And Islam has nothing in it to stop these deeds that we criticize, like FGM, Honor Killings, apostate-intimidation.
I submit to you that a part of the Muslims wants a Khilafate, extraordinary power and that we AND you both should deny that to them. I submit to you that Muslims now simply have too much power, public space in Islamic countries, that eventually should belong to all followers of all beliefs, according to democratic rules.
Islam having more power than other beliefs is simply a very bad combination to us. Either because of Islamic teachings as FFI/ IW/ Jihad Watch maintain, or simply because of misuse of power, falsely in the name of Islam, as you seem to be implying. We outsiders have to take into consideration how a big part of Muslims really behave and would behave when in absolute power.
I think we do not have to prove that the theory of Islam is detrimental to our interests, because the theory is secundary and the actual behavior of Muslims, the actual situations and events in Islamic and Western Countries and India are primary. And we have plenty of evidence, and get more all the time, that a part of the Muslims behaves in detrimental ways to the interests of followers of other beliefs, and apostates.
Maybe it is you who has to prove that Islam can be beneficial to us. And show your co-religionists how to be more beneficial to the rest of mankind, instead of, in part, detrimental.
LondonSpirit, If you and
LondonSpirit,
If you and apparently many Imams, are misrepresenting the war in Iraq in such a major, monstrous way, then I am not the one to refute you, but I thank heaven a 1000 times that FFI/ Jihad Watch/ Islam Watch exist, with people like M.A. Khan, Ibn Kammuna and others who can tell the real story, backing it up with many reliable sources.
I can just say that America just as everyone else pays the same price for oil and always has done so. I can state for the record that it is clear that Iraqi's are now much freeer than they were, although not safer. But we all know that it is not the Americans, withdrawn under Obama, who blow up scores of Shiites, but that it are the Sunnites who do so. Probably the Iraqi's will get a little bit richer, in the north there is certainly much more prosperity now than under Saddam Hussein.
Again, I am flabbergasted at how you Muslims (in part) lie to each other and your children about Iraq and you have proved the big necessity of honest examination of History, by FFI and sisters, relying on as many independent sources as possible. You again showed you almost never really read/ examine or else believe any of the articles posted here.
Oh, yeah, Abu Ghraib was monstrous and Guantanamo unjust, but did you read Mehdi Karroubi saying the Iranian prisons (Kahrizak, Evin) were worse than those 2 in every respect?
O yeah, afterthought, what
O yeah, afterthought, what good did it George Bush do to always say America was not at war with Islam, that Islam was a religion of peace. Tony Blair, Gordon Brown say the same thing over and over. Obama made a fine speech in Cairo, holding out America's hand in peace, but does any of this even register with those who think America and UK are their enemy?
Londonspirit's 2 logical and
Londonspirit's 2 logical and scientific questions:
1. who made your mobile phone?
My Answer:
Well it all depends on which one you are asking about because I have two. The Nokia one comes from Finland and my Samsung comes from South Korea.
2. The law of thermodynamics state that energy can not be created or destroyed it can only change forms. So if that is the case where did all the energy come from that created the big bang?
My Answer:
God the Supreme Creator and I certainly don't mean your Allah.
Muhammad hijacked God, named him Allah after his chief Meccan tribal idol-god and then had the gall to claim his god spoke exclusively to him. Even the backward Arabs of his day thought he was nuts. That is why he found it easier to impose Islam by terror and war rather than using real proof that he was sent from God.
The only things your "Allah" really created are religious strife, hate, intolerance and terror. Moreover I could never believe in a bizarre man-made religion in which your male Allah is supposed to have used incest to create Mankind. This is an impossibility according to the science of genetics and an insult to the one real God.
Who are you and you and your moolas to deny that God used evolutionary natural selection to create us and everything else in this world when the evidence is all around us. Evolution today is a scientific fact and no longer a mere theory as you smugly claim. You are a prime example of the educational dangers of madressa-only educations. At least try reading some other books for a change, rather than blindly relying only on the Quran and your moolas for all of your information.
SHAFFEE AL ZINDG WROTE: My
SHAFFEE AL ZINDG WROTE: My Answer:God the Supreme Creator and I certainly don’t mean your Allah.
ANSWER: OK so who do you mean?
SHAFEE AL ZINDG WROTE: Muhammad hijacked God, named him Allah after his chief Meccan tribal idol-god and then had the gall to claim his god spoke exclusively to him.
ANSWER: The meccan idol god was named Allah but you got to ask yourself the question how did they come up with the word allah and where and why did they choose that name over others. Moses used the word Allah and even jesus did in the bible. All the other prophet also used Allah but pronounciation was different. So these meccans could have just adopted that name from them over generations.
And muhammed never said Allah spoke to him exclusively. Muhammed was spoken to by angel gabriel never allah. Allah only spoke exclusively to moses.
SHAFEE AL ZINDG:The only things your “Allah” really created are religious strife, hate, intolerance and terror. Moreover I could never believe in a bizarre man-made religion in which your male Allah is supposed to have used incest to create Mankind. This is an impossibility according to the science of genetics and an insult to the one real God.
ANSWER: you failed to provided proof on 5 occassions and yet you still accuse. I even made it easier for you by saying bring hadiths that speak of intolerance andi will bring hadiths that speak of tolerance and cross reference my hadiths with the quran. But the hadiths you bring you will not be able to cross reference it.
And no one is telling you to worship allah. Like the quran says you do as you wish and what ever you feel like doing. No one will force you to do anything. Allah has given you that freedom. But remmeber that freedom that allah promised you is only for this life.
There you go again you speak of it being impossible by genetics and proved by scientists but you have no proof. Call it what ever you want mate incest or whatever, but I want to hear your response. So what do you think happened and what is your gods name?
SHAFFEE AL ZINDG: God used evolutionary natural selection to create us and everything else in this world when the evidence is all around us. Evolution today is a scientific fact and no longer a mere theory as you smugly claim. You are a prime example of the educational dangers of madressa-only educations. At least try reading some other books for a change, rather than blindly relying only on the Quran and your moolas for all of your information.
ANSWER: I have never been to madrassa, i look at the world just as you see it. The difference between me and you is that i have read scientific books and I have the brain to understand that nothing can happen out of chance.
Your telling me that over time cows developed eight stomachs, spiders developed 8 eyes, octupus developed 8 hearts and purple blood and many more. Where as humans since their time have wanted to fly but they have never even come close to developing feathers on their hands or anything. They havent even changed a bit towards increasing their heart rate for flight. It seems to me according to natural selection that humans developed the fastest but havent developed anything in terms of natural survival and instinct. Even a small shrimp has developed a way for survival by being all white and being able to camaflouge itself but a human hasnt developed any sort of thing like that.
hahahahaha. Hey Shafee have
hahahahaha. Hey Shafee have fun arguing with this idiot ( londonspirit )
Your the idiot MARIE. i read
Your the idiot MARIE. i read your answer in th other post. I was so amused by your answer that couldnt even be bothered to reply to the post. You words have so much falicies.
I dont understand you people. I aint asking for much. All i ask is for proof from the quran of your accusations, but you can never do that. Am i not saying it right. Is there any other way I could say bring me proof that you will understand.
And is the way of a democratic society whereby I ask for proof, an in me doin so I get called names. I also find it really amusing the way you criticize muslims for their arrogrant behaviour but it is the non-muslims on this site that use ignorant and foul language. This is only a sign of the fact that you have no proof but due to your sheer large numbers of the people against islam on this site, your using it as a tool to get your own way.
You see Marie will call me an idiot, And you will follow by saying yes he is, than someone else will follow an say yes he speaks nonsense and than someone else will reply yes you are wasting your time on london spriti and than a trend will occur. And everyone will agree with each other fooling yourseleves into thinking yes we got our way and we shut him up.
londonspirit: Your the idiot
londonspirit:
Your the idiot MARIE. i read your answer in th other post. I was so amused by your answer that couldnt even be bothered to reply to the post. You words have so much falicies.
I say:
This is coming from some who has never read the Bible and has no knowledge of ancient Judaism meanwhile the source where I got my info was written by Biblical scholars who have in depth knowledge of the Bible.
londonspirit:
I dont understand you people. I aint asking for much. All i ask is for proof from the quran of your accusations, but you can never do that. Am i not saying it right. Is there any other way I could say bring me proof that you will understand.
I say:
several people and I gave you verses from the Quran promoting violence and your response was I was taking them out of context.
how do u no i aint read the
how do u no i aint read the bible. I have a better understandin of it compared to you. You cant even give single answers on the fact the jesus never says he is god. You say he spoke in parables. I than presented parables to you from the bible in which jesus describes himself as a powerless man. In which you gave no answer to. I than showed you contradictions which you gave no answer to. I now recently showed you a verse in which jesus says he doesnt want to know the people who seeks sanity from him. An your referring the verse to unbelievers. Which i find very amusing as jews never believed in jesus an muslim dont seek salvation from him.so to me you dont even believe in your own biblical words. An further more about islamic verses. I got one answer for you. Why dont you just bring verses in context. I brought you horrendous verses from the bible in context again which you gave no answer to. You havent even answered my one single question i posed to u
Londonspirit says: "The
Londonspirit says:
"The difference between me and you is that i have read scientific books"
I was actually referring to real scientific books by real scientists, not your Quran with its fictional, so-called scientific miracles and Harun Yahya's equally weird books with their gross distortions of evolution.
"and I have the brain to understand that nothing can happen out of chance."
You keep twisting my words and my meaning around very badly. I don't know if this is deliberate or just poor English skills. If the former, then this is very dishonest of you (maybe taqiyya?) . If the latter, then you really need to brush up on your reading and comprehension skills if you want to debate effectively. Otherwise you will lose credibility because many good people like Marie will start to think you write garbage and are an idiot.
Where have I claimed that chance had anything to do with evolution? It certainly does not and this is a common fallacy. Did I not also state that God the Supreme Creator used the the natural mechanism of evolutionary natural selection to do the job? You then foolishly asked me who I mean. Duh! What I dispute is that your Muhammad's Allah is the real God. Just because Muhammad said so does not make it true.
Just because would-be reformist Muslims like you falsely claim that women in Islam are equal, it does not make it true. Saying that 2+2=5 does not make it really true. I really believe that the backward Shariah laws as practised today represent the true inferior position of women in Islam. Please spare me your distraction of what other religions do - the focus of this website is purely Islam. The other now much wiser religions have reformed - Islam remains the sole exception.
I suggest would-be reformers like you also focus on Islam and not be obsessed with attacking other religions that are making very sincere attempts at reform. The only way decent people are going to stop ganging up on Islam is for there to be true change. What we have seen so far are merely cosmetic - not sincere.
Shafee Al Zindiq, I am in
Shafee Al Zindiq,
I am in this process with my thoughts and your posts help me a lot in my thinking.
I see myself as a Darwinist/ Freethinker, but I have among my family and friends sincere Christians and Muslims, who I love and/ or like and respect a lot. But I don’t think their religions are true and I told them so.
But debating Islam with my Muslim friends is an impossibility, any attempt I made in the past led to fights. When on FFI I speak sometimes reasonably with LondonSpirit and Kabirlaw. I see them as testing us, making us better. For me they are very strong opponents, hard to refute. In part this is also because they use the same arguments and in practice are supported by many Westerners, who mean to protect “poor attacked muslims” or are just plain lazy ignorant thinkers. I know that in my arguments these people often would side with Muslims or be neutral, and often with good arguments too, so I am always very careful in what I write.
But in your last post you again had very good points. We have to deal with what reality shows us. With what Muslims do where they have majority and power. In relation to their wives, to minorities, in reality. We view the behavior of Muslims that FFI/ IW criticizes in a constant and never-ending stream of articles as our massive evidence. It is among other topics about oppressing women, minorities and their human rights, honor killing, FGM, death-penalty or heavy intimidation on apostates.
FFI/ IW tell us that this is taught/ inspired by Islam. And most often not the well-documented facts are refuted by Muslims but this connection of misbehavior and Islamic teachings. I doubt if these Muslims even read or examine the articles very much.
In the refutations 2 things emerge very often; - The equivalent guilt of the other religions. – The so-called real beneficial and beautiful teachings of Islam. When these opinions, supported by many facts and texts, are stated by Muslims, evidence to the contrary is demanded by them from us. It can be very frustrating if we want to be as honest as we can.
After thinking long and hard, I think we can concede that indeed the other religions have the same faults/ flaws/ shortcomings as Islam, in past and present. We then only can debate about the frequence of the misbehavior in the mentioned religions, and about the reasons of behavior of the perpetrators and also the stage of reform a religion is in. And Christianity now is so much more reformed than Islam.
With admitting that other religions also have faults/ flaws/ shortcomings we can compare back to Islam. Now we can state that all these faults/ flaws/ shortcomings are ALSO in Islam. Later we can even argue: In Islam in much bigger frequencies and with much bigger inspiration and support of the leaders of Islam. But for now we can show that Islam in its 1400 years of existence did not diminish or prevent any FFI-mentioned misbehavior, regardless of its teachings, which were either bad or good-but-ineffective.
We can question current Islam’s effectiveness, relevance for 21st century. We can ask if current Islam is beneficial or detrimental to its own followers and to the rest of mankind. Per total or more in detail.
We can ask Muslims te be more humble and modest about their religion or to leave it altogether. And like you said, we can tell them in advance that the stream of criticism will only continue and increase unless some improvement in bad Islamic practice is made, instead of only telling us of its good theory.
SHAFEE AL ZINDG WROTE: I was
SHAFEE AL ZINDG WROTE: I was actually referring to real scientific books by real scientists, not your Quran with its fictional, so-called scientific miracles and Harun Yahya’s equally weird books with their gross distortions of evolution.
And also wrote the following comment:
“and I have the brain to understand that nothing can happen out of chance.”
ANSWER: OK mr.clever show me scientific proof using the worlds best scientific books that say natural selection is a fact and that darwins theory is a fact. You say that you belive that nothing can happen out of chance but than you belive in natural selection. Chance is the main foundation of natural selection. Read this quote by non-muslim:
Philosophers and scientists use “chance” only in the sense of unpredictability. Chance means essentially that you cannot predict the outcome of a particular event. For example, you cannot predict whether your next child will be a son or a daughter, even though you can specify the probability or likelihood. “Chance” does not mean lack of purpose or goal in science. If it did, we could say that absolutely everything in the natural world is by chance because we don’t see any purpose or goal in storms, in ocean currents, or anything else. Evolution certainly does involve randomness; it does involve unpredictable chance. For example, the origin of new genetic variation by mutation is a process that involves a great deal of chance. Genetic drift, the process I referred to earlier, is a matter of chance.
http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/futuyma.html
Now lets look at some quotes about natural selection made by non-muslim scientists:
Competent scientists wish to tell you the truth about so-called "natural selection," as a mechanism for changing one plant or animal species into another. This is science vs. evolution—a Creation-Evolution Encyclopedia, brought to you by Creation Science Facts.
"So, at present, we are left with neo-Darwinian theory: that evolution has occurred, and has been directed mainly by natural selection, with random contributions from genetic drift, and perhaps the occasional hopeful monster. In this form, the theory is not scientific by Poper's standards."—*Colin Patterson, Evolution (1978), p. 149 [Director, British Museum of Natural History].
"It is therefore of immediate concern to both biologist and lawman that Darwinism is under attack. The theory of life that undermined nineteenth-century religion has virtually become a religion itself and in its turn is being threatened by fresh ideas. The attacks are certainly not limited to those of the creationists and religious fundamentalists who deny Darwinism for political and moral reasons. The main thrust of the criticism comes from within science itself. The doubts about Darwinism represent a political revolt from within rather than a siege from without."—*B. Leith, The Decent of Darwin: A Handbook of Doubts about Darwinism (1982), p. 11.
"Darwin made a mistake sufficiently serious to undermine his theory. And that mistake has only recently been recognized as such . . One organism may indeed be `fitter' than another . . This, of course, is not something which helps create the organism, . . It is clear, I think that there was something very, very wrong with such an idea. As I see it the conclusion is pretty staggering: Darwin's thoery, I believe, is on the verge of collapse."—*Tom Bethell, "Darwin's Mistake," Harper, February 1976, pp. 72, 75.
Even *Charles Darwin could not conceive how his "natural selection" theory could produce the wonders we find in nature. This is his own quote in his own book:
"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."—*Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species (1909 Harvard Classics edition), p. 190.
Now lets look at the eye:
"Consider the eye `with all its inimitable contrivances,' as *Darwin called them, which can admit different amounts of light, focus at a different distance, and correct spherical and chromatic aberration. Consider the retina, consisting of 150 million correctly made and positioned specialized cells. These are the rods [to view black and white] and the cones [to view color]. Consider the nature of the light-sensitive retinal. Combined with a protein (opsin), the retinal becomes a chemical switch. Triggered by light, this switch can generate a nerve impulse . . Each switch-containing rod and cone is correctly wired to the brain so that the electrical storm (an estimated 1000 million impulses per second) is continuously monitored and translated, by a step which is a total mystery, into a mental picture."—Michael Pitman, Adam and Evolution (1984), p. 215.
Lets be logical here. You really think natural selection can develop an eye with 150 million correctly made and positioned specialized cells.
*Darwin, himself, later repudiated natural selection and returned to the discredited theory of Lamarkianism.
"I admit . . that in the earlier editions of my Origin of Species I probably attributed too much to the action of natural descent of the survival of the fittest."—*Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man, Vol. 1 (1871 1st ed.), p. 152.
Natural selection is based on total randomness of process. Yet the structure and functions of plants and animals had to be the result of very intelligent planning.
Here are some more quotes from professors and authors of micro-biological books:
"How could the existence of a distinct species be justified by a theory [evolution] that proclaimed ceaseless change as the most fundamental fact of nature?"—*Stephen Gould, in Natural History, August-September, 1979.
Out of 120,000 fertilized eggs of the green frog only two individuals survived. Are we to conclude that these two frogs out of 120,000 were selected by nature because they were the fittest ones; or rather . . that natural selection is nothing but blind mortality which selects nothing at all?"—*Science Digest, January 1961, pp. 61-63.
"Many variations are so trivial that they could not possibly aid an organism in its struggle for existence. The theory does not explain how the gradual accumulation of trivial variations could result in the appearance of some of the more complex structures found in higher organisms."—*Sayles B. Clark and *J. Albert Mould, Biology for Today (1964), p. 321.
"I could never accept this answer. Random shuttling of bricks will never build a castle or a Greek temple, however long the available time."—*A. Szent-Gyrogyi, The Evolutionary Paragon and Biological Stability, in Molecular Evolution: Prebiological and Biological, p. 111.
So these scientists disprove of natural selection and darwins theory. Now SHAFEE bring your proof. Until you have solid proof about natural selction please do not accuse with no evidence. You failed to show me proof on 5 occassions and you replied back to me saying:
' dont have to prove anything'
your beliveing in a theory that has been called ABSURD by the man who created the theory. How absurd. LOL.
SHAFEE AL ZINDG WROTE: Just because would-be reformist Muslims like you falsely claim that women in Islam are equal, it does not make it true. Saying that 2+2=5 does not make it really true.
ANSWER: I used to the quran to prove my view using all distinct words of the verses. I can even use hadiths to cross reference. So i know for a fact i aint falsely claiming. It is you that is falsely accusing without no solid evidence from the quran or hadiths but biasing your judgements on acts of people. I could bring similer stories and blame religion. But unlike you I dont blame peoples act on religion as I aint so narrow minded. I know for a fact that no religion teaches violence, but PEACE. iT IS PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO WISH TO PURSUE YOUR HATRED TO OTHERS AND MAKE THESE OTHER HATE MUSLIMS AND CREATE A CYCLE OF HATRED AGAINST MUSLIMS. and this site isnt a site whereby you can have a discussion about different aspects of the community, but it is a site to spread that hatred.
Hi. LondonSpirit, I welcome
Hi. LondonSpirit,
I welcome and respect your investigation of Darwinism, which you tell us, is under attack. I welcome all critical analysis of it. You used good arguments which for now I am unable to refute. But I still like to see Darwinism as my life-conviction, just as yours is Islam.
What you write about pertains to searching for the truth. And those who make the extraordinary claims are the ones with the burden of proof, both with Islam and Darwinism. But it is also some sort of life-conviction that no theory of life is truth and that we know absolutely nothing. But I think that too is some sort of choice. Which I find illogical, probably like you. So my choice is to go with the theory that seems most likely to be true, up until now. And be prepared to update and change my belief in this theory and replace with a better theory the moment it comes to my attention and I have grasped it. It gives me the desire to be as openminded and broadminded as I can. It makes me independent of dogma's that are considered true and steadfast for all time.
In this context I still prefer what the leading Darwinists; Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Same Harris, Christopher Hitchens among them, argue for, in their publications, with so many good arguments, at least to my mind. You rely in your core on Quran and a part of the Hadiths and they are unchangeable, already since the 7th century. OK, let that be our difference for now.
To your mind this site and its visitors are motivated by hatred and trying to promote hatred. Towards Muslims. But we have the position that is a part of the thoughts of Muslims that we oppose, namely Islamic thoughts, and yes, we do dislike them. But not the rest of the thoughts and life of these Muslims, who can be lovely, respectable, nice people, who we just wish to have other, wiser thoughts, more beneficial and less detrimental to themselves and the followers of other beliefs. You could say this site really exists to promote these thoughts!
And we know well your position on the innocent and good teachings of Islam. And that the by FFI/ IW criticized behavior of self-confessed Muslims (especially when in power) is caused by other reasons, their own reasons, more universal reasons, that afflict all mankind.
But if that would be true, then it would be high time for Islam, a part of the Muslims if you will, to embark on a policy that makes these alleged good Islamic teachings of you MORE EFFECTIVE. Especially in curbing, stopping, preventing self-confessed Muslims, and especially Islamic leaders and scholars, to perform detrimental acts, reported here on FFI, well-documented, hard to refute facts.
By pointing out to self-confessed Muslims how UN-ISLAMIC their behavior really is. Because according to you, LondonSpirit, the responsibility of the by FFI/ IW criticized actions of self-confessed Muslims, lies NOT with Islamic teachings, and is often against them, so UN-ISLAMIC. Why don't some Muslims, like yourself, tell that to the other ones, who are obviously ignorant or mistaken about it? And yes, that takes a lot of time, and yes, we can be patient, but can we see some beginnings?
In short, let a part of the Muslims declare for fair democratic rules everywhere eventually, in opposition to all those Muslims who maintain and strive for Islamic supremacy anywhere! That certainly would remove much of the raison d'etre of this site! So also much of the cause of the hatred you so dislike.
Peace between us.
Londonspirit: Reading your
Londonspirit:
Reading your half-baked comments above about Evolution, it is obvious to me that you know nothing about the subject and are merely repeating many myths blindly. As you even do about Islam itself and the inferior position of women in it. As it says in English "A little learning is a dangerous thing" and you are a perfect example of this maxim.
All of your questions above on Evolution have been asked and answered in many excellent books. Try reading "The Blind Watchmaker" by Professor Richard Dawkins or "The Demon-Haunted World" by Professor Carl Sagan. As they say "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." If you wish to sit in the darkness of ignorance, that is your choice. Just don't expect the rest of us to share your delusions.
Even the Supreme Court in America rejected your Creationism as voodoo science and accepted Evolution to be taught in schools. Can you argue with that?
shafee al zindg there is
shafee al zindg there is something completely wrong with u. You again bring no solid evidence of your claims. An even if these things have been refuted by other top scientists there are more scientist now than ever who are saying tat evolution is wrong. Even the person who came up with evolution has doubts about his own theory. There is a chapter in his book dedicated to the defieciencies of natural selection an evolution. Why dont you look it up in origin of species. Who cares if america are teachin this in schools they are also doing it in england.in england previously there was a whole module set up on teachin evolution now it has been cut down to two seminars. What does that tell you. It tells me that evolution is slowly going through phases of extinction. To this day they still cant find a biological link between the early ancestors which are the neandathol an the human. If they cant find no link than the whole evolution theory is in vein. So i do not choose to only believe in a theory an i do not wish for you to follow my way. The problem with you is that you put forward accusations but u can never back up with facts. Good luck mate
demsci my purpose for stating
demsci my purpose for stating all those things was because shafee al zindg said that he doesnt believe in chance but cant seem to grasp on the fact that the whole concept of this theory is based on chance. I dont intend for you to change your ways. We no of not what the truth actually is as there are just too many unknowns. The only way we will find out is when we die an by than it will be to late. When we die we can either just conform to dust like in accordance with evolution theory, we all can go heaven or hell. Our decisions today will pay for tomoro.now it is our objective to no the truth an search for it. How i see it is that noting can come out of chance or develop into somethin so advanced out for chance. The brain is able to perform millions of functions every second with no power supply but the world best computer cant even perform a fraction of what the brain does. An the computer is designed by hundreds or even of brains there brains cant even compare to the function of the actual brain an you want me to believe that our brain developed by chance an via chances our brain developed. I find that absurd. The second thing i see wrong about evolution is tat what ever we do we do it for a reason. Literally everythin we do has a reason an objective behind it. So it is the reason for the creation of this universe an the human being. Obviously demsci you dont think like me an you have your own choices for your beliefs which you are entitled to.