At War with Iran for 30 Years

Great article but on the other side of the coin,Iranians are fast becoming a nightmare for the muslim world & reclaiming their Persian identity.Iran has one of the highest number of apostates in the muslim world.According to globalexploits.org , millions of Iranians has left Islam over the past 5 years & there's no signs of stopping.The arabs are fast regretting that they ever set foot in Persia.
Bukhari was the first Persian to incriminate Muhammad,unknowingly of course.Ali Sina is another nightmare,like many others.The psychotic,criminal regime of Iran is aware of this & seems to be feeling overwhelmed,so it started a new penal code for apostates but even this has not slowed the Persians down.
The next desperate move for the Iranian regime is to do what all dictatorships in our modern history has done & that is to wage war on the West or at least blame the west for their societies ills.This serves as a temporary distraction from the criminal ruling elite.
We can only hope that the Iranians citizens move fast & see through the regime's deception & overthrow them.

I've also heard muslims call America, "Great Satan".But,I also heard them say Allah is Great.
So who's Great,Allah or Satan?
It's soooo hard to distinguish between the two.

You americans think your always right. And that you always deserve the best things in life. You Americans are the ones destroying the world right under the noses of every other human being fron different nations. The worst thing is that you know that it is you destroying the world but because you cannot adapt to change you will do nothing about it.

So so incubated in your own little world with no prior knoweldge of the world around you unless what is told to you from the media, such as fox, which is known for its deceptiveness. You worry about the regime of iran, syria and libya and what other muslim nations are doing to get access to nuclear weapons and how it will effect the freedom of the world. Your primary concern is what are muslims doing and the threat that they cause, when the only nation to ever use a nuclear bomb is the USA. And the countries with the most nuclear bombs are all christians nations, and the ones leading are russia with over 1000 nuclear warheads and USA with over 500.
And you feel scared over countries like IRAQ with 0 nuclear warheads and IRAN with 0 nuclear warheads. Makes no logical sense to me.

oing back to how USA are destroying the world. USA are the biggest emitters of green house gases, USA are the biggest consumers of food. You are destroying the world and you are making other countries suffer for your ignorance. Climate is changing rapidly in other countries, ice caps are melting cause bangladesh to fall further under water. The world is experiencing flash floods and earth quakes. 1000s are dying because you americans are not playing the role of protecting the enviroment. Obviously their are americans that see to this problem and are playing a role to stop this.

Your worrying about iran and other muslim nations but you cant see what your doing to the world. It is said in 2100 documentary that if everyone in the world was to consume like the americans that 4 earth like planets would be required to support the food. If everyone else was to use gasoline like the americans do than the world would suffer greatly.

You americans are killing of the planet. you are destroying animal lifestyle. you are killin of humans. You are destroying the world. The american goverment knows this but it didnt stop them declining the kyoto protocol which every other industralized nation signed to cut green house emissions.

PATHETIC. YOU DONT KNOW HOW YOUR KILLING OF THE WORLD. YOU ONLY KNOW WHAT IS BEING TOLD TO YOU. MUSLIMS ARE NO THREAT TO ANY ONE. THEY CAUSE NO HARM TO YOU IN ANYWAY AND NOR WILL THEY CAUSE HARM. ITS BEEN 8 YEARS SINCE 9/11, WHICH WAS NOT DONE BY MUSLIMS ANYWAY, WHAT HAVE MUSLIMS DONE. NOTHING

IT IS YOU WHO ARE THE BIGGEST TERRORISTS NOT JUST TO HUMANS BUT TO ANIMALS AND IT IS YOU WHO ARE GOING TO CAUSE THE DEATH OF OUR CHILDREN.

to londonspirit Sorry sunshine... You rabbit on like an ignorant Muslim. You are not aware of the goodness of Americans (I assume you mean US citizens) As a Englishman I may be overly devoted to our cousins, but without their help (money) good old England would have gone under a long time ago.
If you know that the US (Allies, actually) used nuclear weapons you may recall the circumstances. To whit;- a quick end to the dirt, treacherous, war in the Pacific. Seems to have worked quite well.
The author seems quite concerned about "the rest of the world". Not at all the insulated idiot you accuse him of being.

DANGERMAN WROTE: You rabbit on like an ignorant Muslim. You are not aware of the goodness of Americans.

ANSWER: Mate as an english man myself i can say to you why dont you read my post without skimming through it, because if did so you would have read me noting down the following:

''Obviously their are americans that see to this problem and are playing a role to stop this. ''

So english boy start reading comments properly before you call me ignorant. because it is not me that is ignorant. I state facts, not made up stories in my head.

DANGERMAN WROTE: As a Englishman I may be overly devoted to our cousins, but without their help (money) good old England would have gone under a long time ago.

ANSWER: Ermm what help and what money. Please be kind enough to state some of these. From what i see they forced the british to join forces with them to fight an illegal war. Everyone in the british goverment knew it was an illegal war, thats why it led to the resignation of top politicians. Our soldiers are dying for a war that has no meaning. Did we find an WOFD. Whats the count of soldiers dead. 214 of our soldiers are dead because America decided that iraq had weapons of mass destruction, many are also without an arm or a leg. Please enlighten me.

DANGERMAN WROTE: If you know that the US (Allies, actually) used nuclear weapons you may recall the circumstances. To whit;- a quick end to the dirt, treacherous, war in the Pacific. Seems to have worked quite well.

ANSWER: I dont remember the bomb being dropped in the pacific. Please enlighten me again. I clearly remmeber the bomb being dropped in hiroshma. And i clearly remember watching a documentary on how these japanese people are suffering from discarded mutations to this day. I dont seem to recall that a successful job.

And it is not in americas best interest to kill over 100 000 people just because they belive it will end the war. Although it did, clearly because they killed everyone so obviously the war would have ended. You have no sense in what you are saying. If you say that it seemed to work quite well when over 100 000 people died and people are suffering today, than your no different to a cold hearted man like mugabe who is starving his own people and causing their deaths while he owns many villas in many tourist locations.

DANGERMAN WROTE: The author seems quite concerned about “the rest of the world”. Not at all the insulated idiot you accuse him of being.

ANSWER: I am concerned about the whole world. And i didnt call him an insulated idiot. i was putting my point across.

To londonspirit:

blah blah blah blah.

MARIE WROTE: blah blah blah blah

ANSWER: Ignorant foolish american, proves my point.

londonspirit:

ANSWER: Ignorant foolish american, proves my point.

I say:

I'm American and ignorant and I am proud of it because to be an ignorant American is better then a Muslim. Why is being ignorant and American better then being a Muslim? Because for 1400 years Muslims have done nothing but promote violence and barbarity in the name of Islam. Not only do Muslims promote violence and barbarity they have lots of babies which they cannot take care of, are illiterate, live in filth and poverty, are lazy, take part in debauchery, pedophilia, misogyny, rape, incest, genocide, murder, and exc.

MARIE WROTE: I’m American and ignorant and I am proud of it because to be an ignorant American is better then a Muslim. Why is being ignorant and American better then being a Muslim? Because for 1400 years Muslims have done nothing but promote violence and barbarity in the name of Islam. Not only do Muslims promote violence and barbarity they have lots of babies which they cannot take care of, are illiterate, live in filth and poverty, are lazy, take part in debauchery, pedophilia, misogyny, rape, incest, genocide, murder, and exc.

ANSWER: Another foolish and ignorant answer. For the best part of the last 1400 years muslims discovered many scientific facts, muslims introduced charity towards poor people made compulsary for the rich and many more. America has done nothing else but destroy nations i.e native americans, somalia, vietnam, japan, iraq, afganistan, all of which was done in the last three decades.

Americans have illeteracy rate of the following:

“92 million Americans have low or very low literacy skills – they cannot read above the 6th grade level.(http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/8763/self_improvement_and_mo...)

When did America become a muslim nations. 1/3 person in america is illeterate.

POVERTY AND FILTH: Each year, the U.S. Census Bureau counts the number of "poor" persons in the U.S. In 2005, the Bureau found 37 million "poor" Americans. Presidential candidate John Edwards claims that these 37 million Americans currently "struggle with incredible poverty." Edwards asserts that America's poor, who number "one in eight of us…do not have enough money for the food, shelter, and clothing they need," (http://www.heritage.org/research/welfare/bg1713.cfm)

Again America is not a muslim nation. So why so many people are poor and living in filth.

ARE LAZY: My god how can you say that Americans are known all over the world as the laziest scum bags in the world. They even have lifts in their own houses because they cant be bothered to climb the stairs. Americans have the biggest obesity problem in the entire world. And you call muslims lazy. I bet your a fat lard yourself. lol

In regards to your other statements. I have already proved to you using reliable statistics that america has the highest counts of debauchery, pedophilia, misogyny, rape, incest, genocide, murder, and exc.So Marie get your facts straight. Your just a foolish low life who belives a nation is great, when it is run by the biggest terrorist goverment who only knows how to fil ltheir pockets with more and more money without any concern of what is happening to people around them.

You protect a nation that will in the near future kill 1000's of their own people and than blame muslims so that they can start war in iran and syria, just like they planned 9/11 to give them an excuse to start war in iraq and afgansitan.

Hello LondonSpirit,

This website is run by ex-Muslims who want to promote the ideals of the Enlightenment. Who simply put just want governments who are chosen and allowed by the people and only exist to serve the people, 51 % of them or more. Who furthermore want to promote freedom of speech, autonomy of persons, so also women, independent judiciary system, freedom of the state from the church or mosque. It is in their and our view the best way to organize society yet found by mankind.

They prefer the above much over the Islamic system, or whatever dictatorial system prevails in Islamic countries, where there are mostly dictatorships, sometimes a theocracy, where the mosque runs the state and oppresses the people, where the judiciary system is subservient to the government, where women are not autonomous, or treated equal to men, where there is no freedom of speech.

Many people in democratic countries think a 51 %-system works better for people’s prosperity, freedom, happiness than dictatorial systems or the Islamic system. And they perceive a threat to Democratic countries by Islamic organizations and countries, due to rapid growth of Islamic minorities in Democratic countries.

It is abundantly clear that America for hundreds of years and today very much still was attracting people from all over the world, due to its prosperity, freedom, opportunities. While at the same time the Islamic countries were, in large quantities, left by people who fled them, their oppression, their poverty and lack of opportunity.

In this context it is very relevant to compare America with Islamic countries. To try to assess what are:
A. The advantages that the 51 % rule in America brought mankind, and what detrimental effects this 51 % rule brought.
B. The advantages and what detrimental effects the Islamic system brought.

But if we compare America, basically the effect of 51 %-rule with the Islamic countries we must endeavour to do it as truthfully as we can, with single standards and with good reliable sources, and a broad range of them. And with all due respect, we think that what you are telling is coming from Islamic propaganda, and is less than totally honest. It is about a one-sided, distorted version of history and view of the known facts, situations and events in both America and the Islamic countries. And this makes websites like FFI so very important, to constantly show to the world how Democratic countries and Islamic countries really perform in any significant area of performance.

And often you don’t even compare, you just give figures of America, without comparing them to Islamic and other countries. You were right about the percentage of poor people in America for instance. But that actually meant that 5/6 of Americans is either rich or well-to-do. The same probably holds true for Europeans, Canadians, Australians. But that is an unprecedented achievement for mankind, never reached before the 20st century. And nowhere, least of all in Islamic countries, is this matched. In contrast, in most Islamic countries the majority of the people are very poor, even much poorer than America’s poor in many respects. And then to know that many poor immigrants are constantly arriving in America, adding to the poor-statistics, subtracting from those of the "sending" countries!). So this “disadvantage” of America turns out to be one of its greatest advantages over Islamic countries, except a few oil-rich-ones.

And when comparing the consumption of Americans with the consumption of inhabitants of Islamic countries, well, that is explained by the difference in prosperity. It is you who has to prove that Muslims by and large would not behave differently when they had the chance. And we can almost certainly show you that Muslims in America with comparable incomes consume on average as much as other Americans and that comparable rich inhabitants of Islamic countries also consume as much or more than the equivalent Americans.

When you compare on the field of war, well, then you must also consider who has the power and who has the nuclear weapons and who has not. What did and do Americans do with supreme power and nuclear weapons and what would Muslims do when they have supreme power and nuclear weapons? You can prove nothing about that. They only did not use them because they did not have the nuclear weapons or the power to use them without retribution. Only when they would have had that and yet not used them, only then you could honestly compare them.

About wars; in history there were always wars, many of them also initiated by Muslim nations. And it is double standards to talk about unjust wars of Americans and to pretend that the Muslims only fought just wars. That would be something YOU have to prove, which you can’t. And I know America’s war history very well and it always fought against nations with dictatorial regimes or supported by these. It never fought against another democracy, nor is this likely.

About statistics on rape, mysoginy; These come from the UN.
First of all, do not rate America the same with all nations, because all nations have different sizes of population, so that would be unfair. Look at the per Capita-statistics, then you’ll see that America is not the worst, but South Africa in respect to rape and America is ninth.
Second; The UN clarifies that it’s statistics not only report OCCURRENCE, but intertwined with it POLICE-PERFORMANCE, both in handling rape-cases and in reporting them. Furthermore, as a result of POLICE-PERFORMANCE also intertwined in the statistics is PUBLIC REPORT-PREPAREDNESS. So now we understand that the country with the best police-performance and report-preparedness are the ones with the highest statistics! To use that against them like some muslims do, is highly unfair, if not indeed very dishonest. And it is YOU who has to prove that rape, misogyny do not happen as much or more in Islamic countries. And when the police handles rape-cases unjustly and abominably then of course the public is not much prepared to report rape. And it may be that rape is not even called rape!

londonspirit:

NSWER: Another foolish and ignorant answer. For the best part of the last 1400 years muslims discovered many scientific facts, muslims introduced charity towards poor people made compulsary for the rich and many more. America has done nothing else but destroy nations i.e native americans, somalia, vietnam, japan, iraq, afganistan, all of which was done in the last three decades.

I say:

Muslims have discovered scientific facts? What scientific facts? Most of the Islamic science was stolen from the nonmuslims.

No it was not Islam that introduced charity towards the poor, the Christians were 6 hundred years ahead of Islam.

America has destroyed nations? Then tell me how come those nations are still standing if we destroyed them.

londonspirit:

When did America become a muslim nations. 1/3 person in america is illeterate.

POVERTY AND FILTH: Each year, the U.S. Census Bureau counts the number of “poor” persons in the U.S. In 2005, the Bureau found 37 million “poor” Americans. Presidential candidate John Edwards claims that these 37 million Americans currently “struggle with incredible poverty.” Edwards asserts that America’s poor, who number “one in eight of us…do not have enough money for the food, shelter, and clothing they need,” (http://www.heritage.org/research/welfare/bg1713.cfm)

Again America is not a muslim nation. So why so many people are poor and living in filth.

I say:

londonspirit many of the poor in the U.S. have cars, have roofs over their heads, own computers, and exc. We take care of our poor.

Meanwhile many poor in Muslim countries have no roofs over their head, no electricity, go without the basic necessities, have no one to help them, and exc.

In regards to illiteracy Americans are working on improving reading skills in the public schools. But I cannot say the same thing in Muslim countries. In many Muslim countries the illiteracy rate is 50% or higher and they don't have the resources to work on this problem.

londonspirit:

ARE LAZY: My god how can you say that Americans are known all over the world as the laziest scum bags in the world. They even have lifts in their own houses because they cant be bothered to climb the stairs. Americans have the biggest obesity problem in the entire world. And you call muslims lazy. I bet your a fat lard yourself. lol

I say:

What are you talking about londonspirit? Most of the people I know do not have lifts in their own homes. As far as I know some elderly people and physically handicapped people have lifts in their homes.

According to people I know who lived in Muslim countries Muslims are lazy and that is many foreigners work their because they do the work Muslims are unwilling to do.

londonspirit:

In regards to your other statements. I have already proved to you using reliable statistics that america has the highest counts of debauchery, pedophilia, misogyny, rape, incest, genocide, murder, and exc.So Marie get your facts straight. Your just a foolish low life who belives a nation is great, when it is run by the biggest terrorist goverment who only knows how to fil ltheir pockets with more and more money without any concern of what is happening to people around them.

I say:

londonspirit what are you babbling about? Most of the people I know were never victims of such crimes. You forgot to mention the U.S. has a higher population then incomparison to a lot of countries. That's why we have a higher rate because we have a higher population. These statistics also prove Americans are getting better at reporting such crimes and therefore these crimes are being taken care of by law enforcement.

londonspirit:

You protect a nation that will in the near future kill 1000’s of their own people and than blame muslims so that they can start war in iran and syria, just like they planned 9/11 to give them an excuse to start war in iraq and afgansitan.

I say:

londonspirit what are you babbling about?

Look whose talking. You protect a psychotic maniac who killed, raped, committed genocide, promoted misogny, barbarity, and exc.

Besides it's not Americans who have committed 14,058 terrorist attacks since 9/11. It's not Americans who killed 5 million Americans since 1970.

By the way anyway who believes 9/11 was committted by the U.S. should be admitted to a psychiatric hospital.

By the way Americans do not commit genocide unlike the Muslims who are just itching to nuke Israel.

Speaking of debauchory, pedophilia, misogyny, rape, incest, and murder at least when Christians fast we do not get drunk, pig out, and have orgies after we're done fasting for the day nor do we party until 5 am. Nor do we marry 6 year old girls, believe it is holy to beat women, nor do we marry our relatives, nor do we believe it is holy to murder nonbelievers.

Demsci:

They prefer the above much over the Islamic system, or whatever dictatorial system prevails in Islamic countries, where there are mostly dictatorships, sometimes a theocracy, where the mosque runs the state and oppresses the people, where the judiciary system is subservient to the government, where women are not autonomous, or treated equal to men, where there is no freedom of speech.

I say:

I totally agree with you Demsci. I love the freedom granted in the U.S. and I would not trade it for something inferior and barbaric.

Demsci:

It is abundantly clear that America for hundreds of years and today very much still was attracting people from all over the world, due to its prosperity, freedom, opportunities. While at the same time the Islamic countries were, in large quantities, left by people who fled them, their oppression, their poverty and lack of opportunity.

I say:

Muslims living the U.S. have a better quality of then in comparison to their native countries. That's why they keep on coming here.

londonspirit if America is so bad then why do Muslims immigrate come here?

Demsci:

So this “disadvantage” of America turns out to be one of its greatest advantages over Islamic countries, except a few oil-rich-ones.

I say:

Demsci even the oil rich countries have high numbers of poverty and illiteracy.

Hi, Marie,

Thanks for your kind post. It is very nice that we are so in agreement on this. I agreed with your points also, in fact we independently made a few of the same points.

We indeed can see and admit the faults, flaws and shortcomings of America, but basically the societies of America, Europe, Canada, Australia are the result of 51 % rule, or lack of result of it, and the Islamic countries are the result, or lack thereof, of the Islamic system of organizing society. To me therefore the comparison between of the 2 organizing systems seems all-important. Within the 51 %-system of course we can compare between America and European Countries, Canada, Australia and others.

Demsci while the west is far from perfect it also grants the most freedom to it's people.

I love the west.

DEMSCI your comments are ludicrous. I seriously doubt you know what your talking about either. I have proved to you before that there are only 5 nations that practice dictatorship and out of the 5 only two are muslim nations. I presented the proof to you previously DEMSCI. I still dont know why your using that as a point of argument. Further more I seriously dont know why you are mentioning 51% or so on. You state that why I didnt compare it to islamic nations. So i tell you what. We know that America practices democracy by far more than any other nation, and we also know that saudia arabia practice the shariah law more than any other nation, so why dont you bring the statistics of saudia arabia for all the things Marie said that are caused due to Islam and than we can compare with America. This way we will know whether it is the chrisitans who practise these things or is it the muslims.

Before you say saudia arabia doesnt release information in regards to these matters, i will say it does because it isnt a third world country, it is a first world country. But never the less I am so confident that saudia arabia will have much lower incidents than america that I am prepared to add an extra 15% on all counts.

I am seriously fed up of people just claming without no evidence. I brought my evidence to support my claims of the disgusting acts that America does now you bring your evidence.

DEMSCI WROTE: And nowhere, least of all in Islamic countries, is this matched. In contrast, in most Islamic countries the majority of the people are very poor, even much poorer than America’s poor in many respects. And then to know that many poor immigrants are constantly arriving in America, adding to the poor-statistics, subtracting from those of the “sending” countries!). So this “disadvantage” of America turns out to be one of its greatest advantages over Islamic countries, except a few oil-rich-ones.

ANSWER: The only islamic nations trhat are poor are Bangladesh, pakistan, indonesia and one or two african countries. No other muslim nation is poor. I seriously dont know waht your talking about here.

You cannot count afganistan or palestine because that is a war torn country. And you cannot count iraq, because prior to americans illigal invasion they were a rich state. Name me another islamic nation that is poor.

To londonspirit

In regards to your post all I have to say is LOL.

LondonSpirit,

It is indeed very important to compare the overall performance of Islamic countries + countries with 51 % rule. Because FFI criticizes the Islamic theocratic or dictatorial way of organizing society and its influence, or lack of influence , on societies. It finds that the Democratic way of organizing society is a better choice. And if an Islamic country also goes really democratic then it is no longer a theocratic or dictatorial country and commended. But if a country is not democratic it means that “the few rule over the many”, that some elite is considered to be better or having superior rights in governing than the dumb masses.

And you criticized America, in response to that. But to me America is a society come about as a result of a (liberal) democratic way of organizing society. That means that 51 % of the people every 4 years get to choose the parliament and thus indirectly the government. So if you criticize America you criticize what 51 % of Americans accumulatively chose in 233 years (1776-2009). But I respect these 51 % very much and therefore it is very important to me to compare America’s overall performance with that of Islamic countries, where only an unchosen elite ruled. And Americans are ordinary humans, they or their ancestors came from all over the world.

And if you criticize their behavior it is important to show that what you criticize is what they do or do not do which is different from what the inhabitants of the rest of the world do/ not do. Moreover, which is different what the inhabitants of the rest of the world WOULD do/ not do in the same circumstances, at least in the same circumstances of freedom and prosperity. Otherwise you apply double standards which makes your criticism invalid.

To compare we use criteria, indicators like freedom, prosperity & poverty, crime-rates, rape-rates etc. And OK, the top Democratic state is America, and the top Sharia-state is Saudi Arabia. Iran is also a typically Islamic state and NOT Democratic. For the state of freedom and democracy we can look at Freedom House; http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=363&year=2009.

You don’t seem to see the difference between democracy and dictatorship. If a country is NOT a democracy then I see it automatically as a dictatorship, or may be it is an anarchy. What then do YOU call a NON-democratic country? And you ARE aware that Iran is a far cry from Democracy, aren’t you? Most of us on FFI are very much aware of that. There are 57 Islamic countries and only a few of them are practicing democracy, so the rest are dictatorships, maybe Somalia is anarchic.

About prosperity & poverty; I indeed provided no evidence, sorry, because I thought everybody knew and acknowledged what I said. I myself learned these statistics out from newspapers, TV-programmes. And every year the UN publishes a list of countries in order of functioning well, based on a combination of key criteriums/ indicators. Prosperity is a very important criterium. There are even happiness-surveys done. On the whole invariably the Western countries, America among them, and Japan are in the top 10. And Islamic countries are mostly on the lower half.

I also found a world poverty map.
http://www.cis.hut.fi/research/som-research/worldmap.html

But most of all my entire life people have been telling me personally and on many TV-programmes, reports, in countless newspaper-articles how different in prosperity and poverty are the Western and Islamic countries.

And, LondonSpirit,

You can't just say Iraq was rich before the American invasion, such assertions should be proved. There are many indications to the contrary. And Iraq had suffered heavily from the war with Iran, and from the sanctions in 1991-2003. And must we really point out how desperately poor Iran, Syria, Egypt are?

Any way, this website is here to stay for a long time and this comparison with 51 % rule-countries and elite-ruled-countries and their performance is going to get ever more fine-tuned. And hey, let the best system win!

DEMSCI: I seriously dont know waht is the matter with you. Why you keep mentioning dictatorship I dont know. Saudia arabia is not a country that is under dictatorship. Marie said that in islamic countries they have rape, polygamy and all the rest which was brought about due to islam. So I brought her proof that why is it so high in america since it is not a muslim country. Now I want you to bring proof to show that it is considerably higher in saudia arabia. AMERICA VS SAUDIA ARABIA, since both practice the highest democracy and the highest law of shariah.

I ask you a question DEMSCI. Have you ever visited Saudia Arabia?
Do you even know what goes inside Saudia Arabia?

All you do is have an imaginary picture of how saudia arabia may be due to hears say. You dont even know how it really is. You doubt how it is because you have no prior knowledge of it. Fro myour hears say you belive the woman are oppressed in saudia arabia and that people dont have freedom and all they do is think about how to destroy america.

But you couldnt be more wrong,watch this progamme and see for yourself how saudia arabia is really like. This programme consists of an english lady who had the same mentalilty as you but than was shocked on how saudia arabia is really like

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00mfzjr

Just because these people doesnt agree with your lifestyle of casual sex, binge drinking, drug abuses, partying all night doesnt mean these people dont have any freedom.

MARIE all i got to say to you is shut your fat ass lard up. cause you just speak nonsense

Londonspirit. Your posts are typically misinformed. On the subject of nuclear weapons possessed by the Super-powers, these run into the thousands, tens of thousands. SALT talks between Nixon and Brehznev and all through the 70's finally put limits on these because production threatened to bankrupt their economies. In the end this is what happened to the USSR.

So muslim nuclear brinkmanship with the West will involve total devastation by any exchange. After muslims let off their one, two or ten nuclear weapons, this will involve Western retaliation in the thousands! Like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it will be just a matter of which way the wind is blowing.

Furthermore, the atomic bombing of Japan, besides saving hundreds of thousands of Allied soldiers also saved the Japanese people. Contemporary warfare would never have seen the Japanese surrender. The Americans knew this from their experiences in recapturing Pacific islands from Guam to Iwo Jima for over 2 years. Fighting for these islands was a 'take no prisoners' business. Japanese civilians on these islands would commit suicide rather than surrender to the Americans.

The military solution to this? The Japanese people would have been eradicated and there were plans for the execution of this end using biological weapons. Japanese surrender under atomic bombing saved themselves from annihilation. Do you think that the US was going to just put up with endless resistance and physically kill every god damned Japanese, all 100million of them? Especially that the war in Europe was over America had bigger things to do than to spend time killing every resisting Japanese (i.e. the whole population) manually, keeping its own populace in uniform for another 2 years? Get with the program!

The God of Israel will ensure that 'palestinian' resistance is equally maintained so as to exercise His will to the whole world. Every god damned arab in Israel and Judeah is going to wiped out. Those filthy arabs think that their resistance will go on forever without consequence. They think that Israel will 'collapse'. The Carthaginian solution is coming closer to them. As Obama's plattitudes and internationalism moves America into leftist oblivion, Israel is moving permanently in the opposite direction. Obama is under the delusion that he has been made President for life. I do not believe he will be re-elected if a credible Republican candidate is put up against him. Obama thinks it is better be loved than feared. He will learn a hard lesson in this respect, that is a very old one. The man has no grit for the job. He does not see himself as an American and takes no pride in its institutions. Americans will see this soon enough if they haven't already. He sees himself as a UN representative at the White House rather than as a representative and servant of the American people.

Thank you a lot, Eightman, especially for the first half of your post, which I admired and enjoyed. I am a big fan of both America and Israel.

Hello LS,

Are you a patient young man, generally speaking and now with me? I love to sort things out with you and to discuss this issue further. Earlier in the year I did agree with some of what of what you said, but about your idea of democracy I suggested we agreed to disagree agreeably because I saw we were lightyears apart.

Today I thought every free moment about this discussion and USA versus KSA (Kingdomd of Saudi Arabia) sounds great to me. But: - We must have patience to fine-tune this and with many breaks in between. And - We must accept it when we do not convince each other, OK?

As I explained; I am FOR the 5 pillars of Democracy worldwide (or 51 % rule)which I equate with the most freedom, and as a result the most prosperity and happiness for the biggest portion of its people. And only because of that AGAINST a theocratic and misogynistic Islam. An Islam that would agree with democracy worldwide is agreeable for me. And we both do not have to assume we hate the persons on the other side of the fence. But it is possible we just look for a different way of maintaining or improving the \good\ in society at the cost of the \bad\, I through true democracy, you through true Islamic system.

Now, in my opinion KSA is a dictatorship, as Iran, Egypt, Syria, Libya, Algeria, Sudan and most Islamic nations are. It just does not follow the 5 pillars of Democracy. This much I think I know for sure, because it has been reported many times. KSA is only experimenting a little bit on elections, but the royal family still rules supreme. It has said that it fears real democracy because of the problems the former Soviet Union experienced with that when it tried it. OK, I see that, but still ....

So, in effect a certain Wahhabi-elite now \lords\ it over the \dumb masses\. Not I consider them too dumb to have a say and influence, the KSA-elite in effect thinks that and also that:
A. Their clique has hereditary right, which is no longer practiced in Western Countries/ India.
B. That Islam is a superior religion and that because of that Islam has supremacy-rights in the whole world, or at least in KSA.

We have seen this debate about apostasy here on FFI between you and Ibn Kammuna, but whatever you say, it is certain that KSA has an anti-apostasy-law and that it indeed HAS executed an ex-Muslima Christian girl. And FFI will keep monitoring and searching for more of such evidence. THIS side of KSA disgusts us, deeply, as do the laws that discriminate against its women; who can't drive, can't go out alone, have to cover themselves when going out, have a much harder time divorcing then men, inherit half of what the men get etc.

We assert that at the very best Islam is an average religion/ way of life, as good as the rest. If we try to prove to you and many Westerners that it is much worse than most religions/ ways of life, we often get successfully rebuffed by you and your Western allies, like Pete Rottier. And if you assert: Do not blame Islam for what Muslims do, fine, I can give you that. But then still when Muslims & their allies try to prove Islam to be overall superior they will not be able to do that. FFI and its allies now take care of that, for a long, long time; constantly telling the truth about its teachings and practices everywhere, showing that Islam just isn't better, hasn't done better, won't do any better ever, in anything substantially beneficial, or in diminishing in any significant way any detrimental situations, events, actions caused/ done by self-confessed Muslims.

So; having no superiority Islam has no supremacy-rights anywhere, not even in KSA. Islam MUST, according to us, only rely on fair elections for power. Power from other sources it holds is by force and outrageous. No other religion practices this kind of undemocratic force anymore. And Muslims in Western Countries MUST be neutral or against the theocrats and the misogynists. If not, then FFI already has it's justification to exist, even in being very insulting, although never in being violent.

To answer your question, I have been on holiday to Egypt, Israel, and a host of other countries, but no, never KSA. I'll take your clue to admit I know very little about this country. But of course there were many newspaper-articles, tv-programmes, like the one you showed me, I saw that one, I now remember.

Now, I am determined to give KSA the benefit of the doubt and to have an open mind about what you have to say about it.

Yes, there may indeed be considerably less rape in KSA, but the price is much less freedom for the women. This has been extensively discussed on FFI, the lack of women-freedom I mean.
There may be considerably less crime in KSA, yes I heard this claim myself many times, but the price is the very harsh punishments, among them cutting of hands. And yes, there may in general be much good in KSA.

So if we both want it, we can keep comparing USA-KSA, real democracy with its 5 pillars and the best the Islamic system can come up with, you showing the good sides of KSA and the bad sides of USA and I vice versa, both according to our opinion. And I'll be lenient on you for obligation of full proof of all your assertions if you are the same with me.

londonspirit:

MARIE all i got to say to you is shut your fat ass lard up. cause you just speak nonsense

I say:

You don't like what I have to say? Then bite me. At least I am not a hypocrite who pretends followers of my religion have never used God or my religion to commit violence. Lets face it londonspirit Muslims have been committing violent acts in the name of Islam for 1400 years.

EIGHTMAN WROTE: Londonspirit. Your posts are typically misinformed. On the subject of nuclear weapons possessed by the Super-powers, these run into the thousands, tens of thousands. SALT talks between Nixon and Brehznev and all through the 70’s finally put limits on these because production threatened to bankrupt their economies. In the end this is what happened to the USSR.

ANSWER: My knowledge on this matter is not misinformed as I got my information from Thdaily Mirror, 21/09/2009. The was a whole page on this newspaper talking about disarnement and how many nuclear war heads are owned by each nation. Check it up yourself.

In regards to muslims nuking the west with one bomb and america nuking the east with hundreds. Do you see the error in your logic. I think countries such as Iran wont fire a nuke to the west as it already knows the consequences just like you and i know the consequencies of doing such acts.

Korea hates the americans and they have nukes. Why are they not firing it. Because likewise they also know of the consequencies.

Pakistan has had nukes for the past 10 years likewise india also had nukes. They are arch rivals but yet they never ever nuked each other because they also know of the consequences. So what makes you think iran will fire nukes into america.

EIGHTMAN WROTE: Furthermore, the atomic bombing of Japan, besides saving hundreds of thousands of Allied soldiers also saved the Japanese people. Contemporary warfare would never have seen the Japanese surrender.

The military solution to this? The Japanese people would have been eradicated and there were plans for the execution of this end using biological weapons. Japanese surrender under atomic bombing saved themselves from annihilation. Do you think that the US was going to just put up with endless resistance and physically kill every god damned Japanese, all 100million of them? Especially that the war in Europe was over America had bigger things to do than to spend time killing every resisting Japanese (i.e. the whole population) manually, keeping its own populace in uniform for another 2 years? Get with the program!

ANSWER: You know I wish you were in hirosha and so was your family and children and than we will see if you say what you said above.

America have been fighiting in iraq and afganistan for nearly a decade, much longer than the war in the 40's. Besides the fact that they commited an illigal war do you think its fair to say, well we have been fighting there for so long, things are not getting any better so lets just nuke them?

So england was fighting germany in second world war, the war wasnt ending so america should have nuked them as well. You stupid you are. Nuking hiroshma only killed innocent civilians, 140000 of them. 2000 americans die in 9/11 and america kills 500 000+ civilians in Iraq and afgansitan. That makes sense doesnt it.

3 soldiers get kidnapped for tresspassing in lebanon and israel kill over 1000 civilians in lebanon.

rockets get fired from the west bank to israel killing no one. But israel kill 1000+ and injure over 20 000 in palestine.

This is your logic right. In hirosha up until today people are suffering from the radioactive material. But yet you back up the americans for their acts.

THERE IS NO GETTING THROUGH TO YOU PEOPLE. YOU ARE STUCK IN A DEAD END LOOP HOLE. YOU THINK WHATEVER YOU DO IS RIGHT AND WHAT EVER OTHER PEOPLE DO THAT IS AGAINST YOU IS WRONG.

EIGHTMAN WROTE: The God of Israel will ensure that ‘palestinian’ resistance is equally maintained so as to exercise His will to the whole world. Every god damned arab in Israel and Judeah is going to wiped out. Those filthy arabs think that their resistance will go on forever without consequence. They think that Israel will ‘collapse’.

ANSWER: You think you are such special people. Enjoy your fun now on killing these palestinians. It is said in the quran

Qur'an 17:4 : And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will experience corruption (exile) in the earth twice, but Ye will then after (thumma) ascend (ta’lunna) to a great height (or station).

So quran already speaks of exile of the jews twice. Both times which has already happened. The last encounter was when hitler exiled the jews. The quran than says that the jews will be raised to great heights. We now know today that jews are one of the leading people of the world.

So as muslims we already know that Israel will be a powerful nation. We also know from hadiths that Iraq and syria will be sanctioned

Sanction in Iraq, Syria
'Soon the people of Iraq will neither receive/give any food (grain) nor any money.'" We asked, "Why would such a thing happen?" He replied, "Because of the non-Arabs." He then said: "Soon the people of (Syria) will neither receive/give any money nor grain." We asked as to why this would happen. He replied: "Because of the Romans." He (Jabir) kept quiet for a while and then reported Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) (peace be upon him) having said, "There would be a caliph in the last (period) of my Ummah who would freely give handfuls of wealth to the people without counting it." I said to Abu Nadhrah and Abu al-'Ala: "Do you mean 'Umar 'Abd al-Aziz?" They said: "No (he would be Imam Mahdi.)." (Sahih Muslim, Book 41, No. 6961

So EIGHTMAN, you nation israel will only enjoy upto a specific period whereby allah has promised victory over the jews.

DEMSCI like i said before for you democracy may sound much better than shariah law. Which is ok as you are entitled to your own opnions. But for these arabs the shariah law sounds better and more just.

You think the laws of saudia arabis is harsh, well they ought to be. Look at the laws of america. Guy commits rape. 9/10 times he will get away with it. And if he does go to jail he will be free to commit same crime again even though the girl/boy is scarred for life.

Law of saudia arabia rape= death

America: guy commits murder and comes out of jail free again. Family of deceased scarred for life.

SA: MURDER = DEATH (UNless forgiven by deceased family)

Theft in america; goes to jail for few days if caught and comes out and commits theft again. Business or person looses earning.

THEFT SA: Prior to warnings hand chopped off. Never can he steal again.

Now you tell me in which country would you feel safe in. In england it has come to a point whereby people no abuse the police officers beause they know that they will only go to jail for a few hours and than released.

Recently a police officer hit a guy for foul behaviour. The police man got sueing and got removed from his post. It seems that the criminal hasd more rights than the just person

Also recently in england a burgler got paid huge compensation because he fell down the stairs of the house he was robbing. Seriously WHAT THE F***k.

This is justice right Demsci

londonspirit:

THEFT SA: Prior to warnings hand chopped off. Never can he steal again.

I say:

The guy will never steal again because his hands have been chopped off.

londonspirit:

This is justice right Demsci

I say:

So londonspirit lets say if one of your family members goes to live in a country with sharia and gets caught stealing you would have no problem with your relative losing his hands as a penalty for stealing?

Londonspirit

Against my better judgment. The koran has merely pilfered these 'prophesies' well after the fact as does all its content mimic the old and new testaments before it and that predate in by thousands of years. muslim 'me too-ism' is just so much peurility - ("no we are the chosen ones, no we are etc. etc. blah blah). It's God that does the choosing, not man.

This exile of the Jews has nothing to do with Hitler - you idiot. Jews cannot be in exile from 'Europe' when Europe is just another compass point of exile from Judea, i.e. Israel.

This is the third Jewish Commonwealth. It is the realisation of God's covenant and cannot be revoked. Six hundred thousand Jews, left-overs from years in Europe's torture chambers and a decade of active oppression following 2 millenia of it, established this state against 30,000,000 arabs without any weapons.

Israel's GDP amidst the defense burden, dwarfs its enemies. Over twenty arabs states made war on Israel in 1967. But God delivered His people. Another war in 1973 was a lesson to those 'socialist' Jews. Even with unlimited Soviet support, the arabs failed. But America forced Israel to spare the Egyptian 3rd army. No such concessions will be made in the future.

Today 5 millions stand against 500 millions and they have all and every means at their disposal. This will advance on an exponent as it has before. There is no power that can withstand the decree of God. Not 1 billion or 10 billion muslims can make any difference to this. Israel holds the mandate of Heaven.

When a united people address the affrontery of these arabs the world will spout itself but give otherwise silent relief. For every hypocritical government and anti-Semitic loafer that spend time 'demonstrating' and squealing, the silent majority remain un-moved.

The next war will see Jewish patience at an end. The Jewish peace mongers and liars will have their blood joined with those enemies of Israel with whom they make and have made common cause. Israel will be made free of muslim idolatry and her holy ground will be cleansed of this filth. Then you will reap what you have sown and all of 'allah's promises' will come home to roost. You will then be forced to make good the vain muslim boast that says it prefers death to life.

OK, LondonSpirit,

Yeah, very sensible reaction, I think I feel almost the same way. There was this discussion about: What/ who is more important. A. The individual rights of every person. or B. The interests of the population as a whole. Western nations tend to protect A to a very high extent. But Saudi Arabia and China give the interests of the population a much higher priority. So the individual gets shot or punished very hard, but as a result society is safer, hence the human rights of all the others are better protected. It appeals to me. Did you know that in diverse American States there is the 3-strikes-out-law, I think you like that. I do. It says that when a person is already twice convicted of a crime, doesn't matter what crime, then if (s)he gets convicted for a third time, that (s)he then goes to jail for life! You see, (s)he is taken "out", seen as incorrigible.

You wrote, to Eightman:
THERE IS NO GETTING THROUGH TO YOU PEOPLE. YOU ARE STUCK IN A DEAD END LOOP HOLE. YOU THINK WHATEVER YOU DO IS RIGHT AND WHAT EVER OTHER PEOPLE DO THAT IS AGAINST YOU IS WRONG.

I appreciate the feeling. Perhaps with "you people" you mean us here, OK. But please look broadly, LS, because there is a broad variety of opinions on everything in the West, as they are allowed, critical thinking is encouraged. You must know that the majority of Westerners and their politicians is much concerned about "hate-speech" and "discrimination, even racism" against Muslims and also highly critical on the West, America, Israel, in parliament and media and society. I hope you appreciate them.

In fact, of course, we think the same of most muslims as you thought about us. And Ibn Warraq has pointed towards one of the most endearing strong points of the West, that is the capability of self-criticism. I do know we Westerners get a lot of criticism and hard insults from our own people. Ibn Warraq said this is something that is totally lacking in the Muslim world. In this respect I always thought you yourself behaved more Western-Democratic than Islamic.

LS, to probe a little further:

You wrote:
"But for these arabs the shariah law sounds better and more just. "

Well, in theory maybe it is possible that in some places shariah law is going to be practiced, only with the understanding that anyone in these places can migrate to places where secular law prevails if they wish. And anyone living under secular laws must then be permitted to go to the Sharia-areas and taken in there. That way only willing participants who actually themselves prefer Shariah law over secular laws are able practice it to their heart's content.

The problem with your statement to me is with "These Arabs". You see, they haven't all been asked through elections. The female part hasn't been asked. And even if they were to be asked, there was no free press to inform them in a balanced way. Their upbringing and education were very one-sided. Again we see some elite deciding for the dumb masses, from the cradle to the grave. Intent on keeping them dumb too. If Islam is so good and God-given, it should only rely on fair competition, with balanced media, and then still win. The key-words are to me: Give all people INFORMED CHOICE. But of course after good education, so it is OK to go slow, but at least have this intention.

Marie I would have no problem with his hands being chopped. The hands dont get chopped of in the first occassion. If he continually does it than by all means chop it off. My family memeber shouldnt be stealing in the first place. Likewise if my family member was to rape or murder for no reason, than he should die. he shouldnt destroy someones family life.

I think you marie would be happy to rather see your son live a prosperous life knowing that he raped someone and destroyed not just the person he raped but also the family. If i was allowed I would kill my son myself if he did such an act.

EIGHTMAN: You stupid man every nation comes down. God gave you power it is even written in the quran. God will raise you to great heights. It is written in the quran. But god also promised your break down, not only is this written in the quran but also written in the new testament.

Your right in the fact that israel wont come down anytime soon, even if there was 10 billion muslims against you ready to break you down this is because this is gods will that you will stand to great heights. Just like the muslims were promised victory in the battle of badr whereby the muslims were outnumered 3:1.

But your nation will fall in the times to come, just like every other nation fell. SO maybe you may not experience it but your sons and daughters will.

DEMSCI you highlighted a point that I have made and talked about it but yet you dont see what I am talking about.

In less than a decade america has destroyed two whole nations (iraq & afganistan), but just because they say its right to go in than they are right to do so. No one can stop them. They felt that taliban were hiding in afganistan but didnt find nothing.
They destroyed Iraq because they felt that iraq had WOMD, but they didnt find anything.The UN Leader Kofi Annon said not to enter iraq but eyt they defied their warnings and still went in. What punishment did these americans get for defying their rule. NOTHING. The UN should have stopped them or sanctioned them but they did nothing.

Israel Went to war with lebanon even after the UN said not to go in. They defied their rulings and still went in and America supported them. Did they get sanctioned. NO.

Israel went to war in palestine even after the whole world said otherwise. But they didnt listen and they still went in. Did they get punished for their war crimes.NO. America is still supplying them war machines to this day even after the illigal war.

SO demsci, why dont you think about that statement I said and see for yourself, if its islam that is causing the troubles of the world or is it your own democratic goverment.

America accused Iraq of having WOMD and iraq allowed the UN to enter the country to analyse themselve that their aint nothing. Even after the UN agreed that they aint no bombs America still waged war on the country.

YOUR BLIND TO WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN THIS WORLD, YOU BLAME ISLAM FOR THE WARS OF THE WORLD BUT YOU CANT ANALYZE YOURSELF THAT IT IS THE CHRISITANS WHO ARE WAGING WAR ON THEMSELVES AND ON OTHER NATIONS.

Israel eve

Londonspirit

You are a fool and a liar. You talk as if Israel goes to war without provocation, as if it acts in a vacuum. Like any muslim you think its your 'right' to kill Jews. Very well then. By this measure it is a Jewish right to kill arabs. You will see that God's punishment will be delivered from your own mouths. Israel can make bullets much faster than arabs can make muslims. America supplied nothing to Israel until after 1967. Now Israeli components supply the American military! Israel restrains itself. You think Lebanon or Gaza was a full response? Israel fights with its little finger. You think hezbollah and hamas have the 'right' to attack Israel with impunity. That any country would just normally do nothing when its citizens are hailed with rocket and artillery fire. What an idiot you are.

Israel is the only 1 of less than a handful of countries that was established by UN vote - not that that means anything to me - the sanction of the UN is no recommendation - but you seem to quote it when it suits you. When arabs wage war, it is they who go unsanctioned and unpunished. It is one thing to deny the UN, quite another to deny the God of Israel.

The Jews had nothing, no power, one third of their peoples had just been slaughtered and the world was going to do nothing whilst the arabs, armed to the teeth, supposedly going to slaughter them in Holocaust round II. 'palestine' is the name given to the conquered Roman province of Judeah!! There was not and will never be a 'palestine'. No such place ever existed. 'palestinians' was whom the arabs called the Jews living there when it was an Ottoman province.

muslims only know how to steal and plunder. They steal everything, even attempting to steal and rewrite history. They cannot but fail. Far greater than they have tried and failed to thwart the will of the God of Israel.

The people who remain unpunished are the arabs that think that their war with Israel will just go on and on and on whilst they blabber 'peace' from one end whilst really making war at another. There is no precedent in history where a relatively strong nation has tolerated the constant belligerence of a relatively weak one. Your clients are going to be wiped out. That day is coming closer. It is you who cannot see. It is you who are blind. It is you who clings to a false god.

islam is nothing. It produces nothing but political, economic and social refugees. What do these idiots do when they get somewhere else free of islam? They start their sharia rubbish and heckling and property rights in women and children and honour killings and the whole rotten, putrid failure mess of islam. They bring with them the reason why they were turned into refugees in the first place. Who is it that is blind?

islam is a failed 'culture' and ideology. This is what drives muslims. They see that the rubbish drummed into them is false in the face of Western leadership, progress and power. So you spit out the hope of the hopeless 'one day we will prevail......it is written....blah blah blah' The prophesies stolen from the old testament and corrupted with the suitable name changes and forgeries. You think that you can control God by forging a contract or changing the script to suit yourselves?

Because some illiterate moron went into a cave and made himself a god. You think people who follow such nonsence can prevail? You think that God really has the same human personality faultlines as this pedophilic maniac ? You are quite insane.

As if America ever gave a shit about Afghanistan. Afghanistan is a complete shithole of a country. It was never anything and it will never be anything. America is there because, like in Israel, it is islam that attacks, islam that aggresses and islam that complains when it is bloodied for actions of its own making. islam can only get any attention to itself by perpetrating unprovoked outrages.

These outrages are going to be perpetrated against you. And there will be no 'next time'. Your koran is nothing but toilet paper and keeps muslims stupid, ignorant, institutionally immoral and debauched.

You cannot even understand the concatenation of causes when these are plain as day. You are immune to reason. So thus you will be dealt with. Don't bother with replies. islam only understands cold steel. You think you are killers. You know nothing of the aroused righteous fury of free men resolved to save themselves from an implacable enemy. Your fates are sealed by your own obstinance and arrogance. You will burn along with your book. This is what Ahmadinejad wants. This is what you all will get.

Hi, LondonSpirit,

At least you are still willing to talk things through, although we will probably never be able to talk things out.

Yes, we can compare what democratic governments do versus what Islamic governments and organizations do. Please remember that the democratic governments are always, albeit very indirectly and imperfectly, chosen, allowed, by 51 % or more of their people. So when you criticize these governments you criticize a hell of lot of people indirectly, people much like yourself.

I would like to say to you: Do not blame Americans for what all humans do or tend to do. Also I assert that in the long run no country should be run by followers of Islam, without being chosen in fair elections, because Islam has been proven not to be superior to the other big religions. And I hope you understand that I feel that the other religions are no better than Islam either, not even Darwinism, which I prefer. No, ALL religions, ways of life should honour what 51 % of people choose or at least ALLOW, when asked in fair elections.

Intermittedly we still can do the comparison of USA-KSA, about crime and rape, poverty & prosperity, war and peace and more aspects. Here is a video that Sameer gave us on the thread Miss Faiza Ramzan Update.

SOURCE :
http://incognito73.instablogs.com/entry/punishing-victims-saudi-gang-rap...

On the subject of war and peace. OK, when you are Islamic I can see your objections to what America and Israel did, and also that you despair of ever getting satisfaction of us FFI-visitors for admitting their wrong deeds. You think that we are committed to one side, measure with double standards, brainwashed and prejudiced as we are. OK, we think the same of you Muslims.

But when you say America destroyed these nations, you don’t mention what their situation was like before; very poor, oppressed nations, by Saddam Hussein, the Taliban. In both countries there had been terrible wars which were caused by Muslims and Russians primarily. America liberated Iraq and was determined to leave it when it could be independently democratic, so when the Iraqi’s finally had the possibility to choose and allow their government.

While before some elite, around Saddam, had treated them like dumb masses, sheep, especially the majority of the Shiites. America did not fight the nation of Iraq after Saddam fell, it defended the chosen government of Iraq or, prior to that, the establishment of a chosen government of Iraq. By spreading this Islamic propaganda against America, in effect you are being against the majority of Iraqi people.

And it does not appeal to you that ALL American and British and their allied governments always say that: They are not at war with Islam, only with terrorists, that Islam is a peaceful religion. And these government leaders represent so many Westerners who so respect Islam and who so chastise “Islamophobics” like us. Thank you for showing us that all their efforts are largely in vain. Despite these appeasement efforts now still it is judged in Islamic circles that “America + UK are at war with Islam, that they fight against Iraqi nation and people”.

In the case of Afghanistan, you must know that the UN DID endorse that, because you emphasize that the Iraq war was not endorsed by UN. But the Afghanistan war indeed was, and supported by most of the world, even Russia. The Taliban dug it’s own grave, when they defied America, refusing to cut ties with Al Qaida. What were they thinking, challenging the world's most powerful army?! The downfall of the Taliban in 2001 also came about through the Northern Alliance, and we since have been shown how deeply Islamic they are too.

Far from being destroyed as you say, these 2 nations hopefully will progress in future, and already have recorded some notable improvements, like with electricity, mobile phones, internet-connections, much more freedom for its people, more freedom of the press, a beginning of good education etc.

So please, practice what you preach, and see the worldsituation from both points of view, you know us Westerners&Indians do that.

Hmmm atomic bomb?

Praise to Yankee, sent 2 atomic bomb to Japan, so our founding father can declare Indonesia Independence, because 3,5 years colonization Japan force to surrender and the 350 years colonization dutch force, still recovery after Nazi's foot.

I Pry they send another they atomic bomb to some place in arab, so they stop sending their money to fuel terrorism in our country or stop force sex to our labor women..

I never understand why advance nation-especially Yankee (west country) try to applied the idea human right in all over place. We have different idea about human right. Islam have different idea about human right. Please not jump to conclusion we all are same human. They think their not. They must declare first their respect about humanity- other human-, and act according it. If not, we have old guidance Luke 6:38, send them to heaven. They heaven of course.

londonspirit:

Marie I would have no problem with his hands being chopped. The hands dont get chopped of in the first occassion. If he continually does it than by all means chop it off. My family memeber shouldnt be stealing in the first place. Likewise if my family member was to rape or murder for no reason, than he should die. he shouldnt destroy someones family life.

I think you marie would be happy to rather see your son live a prosperous life knowing that he raped someone and destroyed not just the person he raped but also the family. If i was allowed I would kill my son myself if he did such an act.

I say:

I don't have any children. When I do have children I will teach them about morality and what is right and wrong. And if I do have a son who goes bad and commits rape I would give him a chance to turn himself in or else I will turn him in.
]
As for you, you are a sick xxxx and it is a waste of time arguing with you.

"Marie I would have no problem with his hands being chopped. The hands dont get chopped of in the first occassion."

You all can see that this big mouth has barbaric mentality. Chopping hands for petty thief is an imbalance punishment and shows no mercy to petty crimes. The loss of the victim (property) can be restored easily when the culprit repents and starts to give back what he/she had stolen either with the same property or another ways. Even the ancient jews (pretty much barbaric) didn't cut people's hand when comes to thievery. The stolen goods can be restored, but the thief's hand can't. Why don't you applied the same rules to adultery eh?

"If i was allowed I would kill my son myself if he did such an act."

This words is very islamic and showed his islamic root very well. Honor killing. He has no problem with killing, but he has so much problem with rape. If a person raped someone, you told that person to take responsibilty to the victim (after he get out of jail) and apologize to the victim's family, thus give them 2nd chance to fix all things, and if that person refuse to do that you gave him a rehab and a moral lesson, not just kill him straight a away. You look all things in a proud egoistic way, you don't explore the "why" and "solution", only kill, kill, kill. Even a gangster knows that.

EIGHTMAN WROTE: There was not and will never be a ‘palestine’. No such place ever existed. ‘palestinians’ was whom the arabs called the Jews living there when it was an Ottoman province.

ANSWER: Israel is not a country. You live in stolen palestinian land. And if you think that god only protects you ignorant fools than think again. Not even your own prophet liked you people. Because since 4000 years ago up until to this day you people are ignorant people. You think god is always on your side but yet you were completely annilated by hitler. Think again mate. Every nation lives and than dies. You think islam is a failure. Than count the number of jews to the number of muslims and than eat your own shit.

EIGHTMAN WROTE: Your koran is nothing but toilet paper and keeps muslims stupid, ignorant, institutionally immoral and debauched.

ANSWER: Mate wh ydont you just use it as a toilet paper. I dont think you ever have and i dont think anyone ever has. YIf you say that about my religion and my sacred book. Than i will just say that GOD BLESS HITLER.

MARIE: I belive in justice. If my son or daughter comiited murder than he destroyed ones life, and not just the deceased life but also the life of the family. So therefore the murderer deserves to be punished whether its my son or not. They have brains to determine whats right or whats wrong. If they decide to use it wrongfully than thats their fault and no one elses. And MOOO that is not islam that teaches killing of murderers. The bible clearly states an eye for an eye. So mate this law was invented wayt before islam.

"And MOOO that is not islam that teaches killing of murderers."

Is that why you muslim keep killing people everyday, past and present? kafirs, adulterers (proven or not), apostates, hypocrites, etc, etc. You behave cruelly to petty thief but not to murderers? yeah i can see that.

"The bible clearly states an eye for an eye."

See, you use the bible again like a moron. Is there any Jews and Christians practice that sh*t? Muslim do that, others don't. Understand. Playing words like this is nothing new. An eye for an eye is barbaric mafia thinking.

"So mate this law was invented wayt before islam."

I'm not your mate. The word "invented" is funny coming out from you, so sharia is invented too.

And where are the verses that i asked you eh, runner?

"I belive in justice. If my son or daughter comiited murder than he destroyed ones life, and not just the deceased life but also the life of the family. So therefore the murderer deserves to be punished whether its my son or not."

What justice? Islamic barbaric "justice"? Of course the culprit must be punished, who do you think you are? kindergarten teacher?

"They have brains to determine whats right or whats wrong. If they decide to use it wrongfully than thats their fault and no one elses"

It's depend of the mindset, parents influence, and environment, not just their brain.

Moooo

Typically ignorant renditions in just one instance. The Hebrew text does not say 'An eye for an eye'. That might be the Greek translation or the popular understandings but it is, like most things written here by muslim apologists and advocates, utterly false and mired in glorious ignorance.

The translated Hebrew text of this verse is "An eye under an eye". This has been subsequently interpreted by rabbinical scholarship to be applicable to fiscal/civil torts. Thus typically in the Talmud you will find this applied in the following situations, 'if your ox gouges my ox etc...' The basis of compensatory damages will be the value of the second ox, i.e. derived from an eye under an eye and interpreted for such civil cases as 'an eye for an eye'. This verse does not apply to criminal procedings.

As a matter of legal form, a rabbinical court that brought down a death sentence more than once in 70 years was said to be a murderous court.

Spare us all your mouthings from the old testament. We will look to Ali Sina for our understandings of islam.

Correction. Apologies Moooo. Of course my above post should be directed to that idiot Londonspirit.

eightman,

Ah, now you understand it. Good. The difference between you and him is that you apologized when you made mistake, he don't. In fact, no muslim ever do that.

An eye for an eye. Hmmm, only muslim see this literally and partially. So, if a man rape a woman he must be raped too for punishment. Funny.

Mooooo , In which country this Law prevails . I want to go there , I am thinking of becoming a Muslim/????. It will be really good (twice you can enjoy)

Arp,

What do you mean? An eye for an eye? No country practice it. Maybe mafia or gangster do that.