Rejection of Darwin and the Failure of Islam

Submitted by John Perkins on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 08:42

PDF versionTalk presented to the Atheist Society, Melbourne, 10 February 2009 Two hundred years after the birth of Charles Darwin, and one hundred and fifty years after the publication of "Origin of the Species", many fundamentalist religious groups continue to deny the reality, and the factual nature, of evolution. However there is only one major religion that systematically rejects Darwin's discovery, and that therefore fails to accept one of the major findings of science: Islam. The evidence of biological evolution exposes the contradictions of faith. It will be argued here that the failure within Islam to come to terms with these contradictions is symptomatic of a wider failure within Islamic society to come to terms with modernity. To understand why this is the case, certain aspects about the nature of religions belief must be recognised. Religion and rationality The essential feature of religious belief is that it is not rational.¹ Religious faith contradicts reason and science. Religious faith is belief without reason and evidence, or despite reason and evidence. This inevitably invokes non-rational cognitions. Many religious arguments are blatantly illogical yet seem reasonable to believers. All believers indulge in wilful blindness to contradictions. They are all aware of at least some contradictions, since they are all aware, at least, of other religions. They generally lack curiosity about the basis for authenticity of their own beliefs. They have an aversion to issues that may challenge their faith. This blindness of faith is why religious beliefs are characteristically delusional, and are not merely mistaken beliefs. Of course, this fact is disputed by religionists. The reason for this, of course, is that those who suffer from delusions lack insight into their perspective. Atheists do not suffer from this lack of insight. No-one has perfect knowledge. However those who seek to rely on reason and evidence, rather than faith, are more rational and less likely to hold false beliefs. Which religion is true, and why? When challenged to back up their assertions with testable evidence, believers are unable do so.² Instead, challenges to belief lead to cognitive dissonance and sometimes to an emotional reaction or disturbance amongst believers, and often to deeper resort to faith. This behaviour is characteristic in all religions but is more pronounced in Islam. The challenge to faith that is posed by Darwinian evolution is one that Islam has avoided rather than confronted. The reasons for this lie in the doctrinal characteristics of Islam. The coercive nature of the submission to Islam The Catholic Church and mainstream Protestant groups accept the reality of the science of evolution. They can accept that the Genesis story is not literal. However Muslims cannot accept that the creationist statements in the Koran are not literal. There are no Imams, Muftis, Islamic leaders, or Islamic scholars who admit or accept that the Koran is flawed, is incorrect, and is not literally true. To be a Muslim, one cannot do this. So Muslims must necessarily reject evolution, at least in the Darwinian sense, where no god is required or evident. Non-Muslims who are accustomed to living in a Christian or multicultural society may have trouble understanding the all-encompassing and coercive nature of Islam. As Muslims themselves often attest, they see Islam not as a religion but as a "way of life". Muslims have great difficulty, if not an inability, to distinguish between religion and science, between religion and politics, between religion and reality. The reason for this is the critical importance that is assigned to the Koran in Islam, and the critical importance that the Koran assigns to the punishment of non-believers. The psychological effects of the exposure of such intense fear and the threat of torment, especially on the minds of children, deeply entrenches adherence to Islamic doctrine. For Muslims, there are punishments for criticising or attempting to leave the religion. In this sense Islam is more like a mass cult than a religion. The coercive submission to doctrine in Islam leads, in key areas, to the rejection of rationalism and free inquiry. The consequences of this are not benign. The effect has been to inhibit human progress in Islamic society. The rejection of the application of scientific method and of denial of the fundamental findings of science is symptomatic of the relative decline of the Islamic world over the last 800 years. Muslims once led the world in science. The rigid adherence to Koranic doctrine has, over centuries, had devastating consequences on the economic, social and democratic development of Muslim societies. This has intensified in recent decades. Islam has failed its adherents. Before continuing, it should be noted that this is not to attack Muslims, or any other believers, as people. Nor does it impugn their abilities and intelligence. What is provided here is a critical analysis of belief. This is something that is chronically lacking in Muslim societies. It should also be noted that Islam itself is not the only reason for the relative deprivation of Muslim societies and communities. For example, the implementation of the Judaic concept of the "promised land", in the creation of a Jewish state, has led to an acute travesty of justice for the Palestinians, and inflamed Islamism worldwide, to the detriment of all. Why is Darwin's discovery such a problem for believers? Evolution does not just indicate that their sacred texts are erroneous. Acceptance of evolution makes the relevance of the concept of the creator god obsolete. Of course many religious believers deal with this by assigning their god a supervisory role in the evolutionary process. Muslims find it hard to do this, as the Koran is so explicit about Allah being a creator god. However as with all religions, there is a multitude of ways in which Muslim apologists try to justify and reconcile the impossible. Because the complete submission to the doctrines of the Koran is a required tenet of Islam, the contradictions between the findings of science and the Koran are systematically rejected or denied by Muslims. As will be outlined here, this has led to such a systemic failure in the economic and social development of Muslim societies that it should be recognised as the failure of Islam. The Koran and creation The Koran mentions Allah as a creator god over forty times. For example, Allah is the creator, the shaper and the fashioner (59:24). However the accounts of the creation of man and the universe are brief and contradictory. "The heavens, earth and all that lies between" are several times described as being created by God in six days (7:54, 25:59 and 32:4). The chronology of creation in the Koran is not specific. Of the six days, it appears that the earth was created in two days, (41:9), mountains and sustenance were created in four days (41:10), and the heavens in the following two days (41:11-12). This interpretation ³ differs somewhat from the biblical ordering, but in similarity, it is obviously geocentric. Compare this with the Genesis 1 order of creation: day 1, day and night; day 2, waters and firmament; day 3, earth and sea, grass and fruit trees; day 4, sun, moon and stars; day 5 whales and fowls; day 6, cattle and things that creep, man, male and female. As with the biblical account, the Koran errs in saying that the sun was created after the earth. It copies the logical flaw in Genesis, that, if there we no sun, then where was the light coming from and how was day and night determined? Muslims claim that "six days" are figurative, and that longer time periods are intended. This is certainly consistent with the proposition that without a sun, a "day" may be of arbitrary length. But then why did Allah, supposedly speaking in the Koran, refer to it as a "day"? The supposed creator has no awareness of creation outside of 7^th century Arabic folklore. There are other problems with Koranic cosmology. The earth is "spread out" as if flat (15:19), and the sky is a roof without apparent support. (21:32). This is again a geocentric conception of the universe. Confirming it, the sun is described as being in orbit around the earth (21:33 and 36:40). Given all this, it is easy to understand that scientific inquiry causes an enormous amount of cognitive dissonance for Muslims. As for evolution, the Koran is even more problematic. "God created every beast from water" (24:45). There are numerous differing accounts of how man was created. Man was created from clay (6:1, 15:26, 23:12) and in other verses from water (21:30, 25:54), from dust (3:59, 30:20, 35:11), from the earth (11:61), from wet earth from a germ (16:4), from nothing (19:67), from a drop of ejaculated semen (75:37), gushing fluid (86:5) from a little germ (80:18) and from clots of blood (96:1), from dust and germ (18:37), dust, germ, then clot of blood (22:5), (40:67). There is no room for interpretations that allow the evolution of humans from our ape-like ancestors. The creator god of the Koran has no need of such a time consuming processes. "He is the all-knowing Creator. He need only say 'Be' and it is". (36:82). Muslim responses to evolution Given all the specifically creationist statements in the Koran and the coercive nature of Islamic belief, Muslims adopt various strategies in dealing with the facts of evolution:

Claim that evolution was invented by Muslims
Avoidance of discussion of any contradiction
Acceptance of both evolution and creation.
Denial and rejection of evolution
Adoption of the Christian strategy of promoting "intelligent design"

Regarding the first, there may be some justification for the claim that early Muslim scientists may have talked about species evolving. However this strategy suffers from the obvious flaw that Muslims having once owned the concept, now cannot accept it. Simply avoiding the issue is an easy way out and is a practised by many religions. If evolution is not taught and not discussed, the whole problem is mitigated. When necessary, religion and science can be declared as separate and non-contradicting spheres. Then the differing claims can be compartmentalised to different parts of knowledge, different parts of the syllabus, and different parts of the brain. This is not just an Islamic strategy. It is a strategy advocated by Christian philosophers and even by some nominally atheist ones. Their conscience apparently prevents them from espousing a truth that believers may find uncomfortable. It is said that some Muslims accept evolution in its entirety. However when one looks at the discourse put forward by advocates of acceptance, the conflicts with the Koran are not resolved.⁴ The Koran may be quoted as if for balance. However it is not acknowledged that acceptance of evolution must involve rejection of creation as depicted in the Koran. Faith, and blindness to contradiction is invoked, as if this somehow resolves the problem. This claimed acceptance of both Darwin and the Koran does not seem to be the most common Islamic approach to evolution, perhaps due to its embarrassing lack of coherence. Denial and rejection of evolution is the classic fundamentalist strategy. The term "fundamentalist" actually derives from the religious movement that was formed in response to Darwin's work. All official Islamic advocates seem to be in this camp, adding weight to the claim that all Muslims are inherently fundamentalist. Indeed Muslim advocates, such as the popular Melbourne identity Waleed Aly, resent the terms "moderate" and "fundamentalist" when applied to Islam, claiming them to be Christian constructs with no application to Islam. For a Muslim not to be a creationist would require a rather explicit rejection of Koranic doctrine. When avoidance and obfuscation will not suffice, an avowed Muslim will invariably assert that according to their belief, Allah is the creator. Even the concept of guided evolution, a popular Christian rationalisation, appears to be beyond the pale for Muslims. While some may accept evolution in part, the idea that humans also evolved, is universally held to be doctrinally unsound. Thus, an Islamic Darwinist may possibly exist, but there appears to be no evidence that one does.⁵ Given the parlous state of cognitive dissonance that these anomalies must induce in the minds of Muslims, it is no wonder then, that the Christian concept of "intelligent design" has been adopted with enthusiasm by many Muslims. The web site Islam Online has issued a "Call for Muslim Scientists to Join the Scientific Dissent From Darwinism". They maintain that evolution has been discredited and that a new theory has replaced it - Intelligent Design.⁶ Intelligent Design is the ploy that there are things that we (or believers, at least) do not understand, that are "irreducibly complex", and that therefore an "intelligent designer" must have been involved. It is still creationism, but where the creator is relabelled a designer. Its advocates imagine that this is a brilliant scientific innovation. In reality I.D. has been exposed as little more than a ruse to subvert the US Constitution and get creationism back into American public schools. A more direct Muslim strategy has been to popularise an Islamic version of creationism. In this regard there has been a massive publicity campaign emanating from Adnan Oktar, a Turkish philosopher who writes prolifically under the pen name of Harun Yahya. His books, website⁷ and DVDs are all very professionally presented and expensively produced. Numerous university scientists and members of the media received copies of his book "Atlas of Creation" as an unsolicited gift in 2007. His works have become very popular in many Muslim communities. Such creationist propaganda falls on fertile ground. Data from a 2007 sociological survey revealed that only a minority in five Muslim countries agreed that Darwin's theory of evolution was probably or most certainly true: 16 percent of Indonesians, 14 percent of Pakistanis, 8 percent of Egyptians, 11 percent of Malaysians and 22 percent of Turks.⁸ A separate survey on this question (so not strictly comparable) showed that acceptance of evolution was highest in Japan and Sweden, (around 80%), generally high in Western Europe, (above 60%), rather flow in the USA (around 45%) and surprisingly low in Australia (about 55%).⁹ The billions of dollars Australian taxpayers provide to religious schools may explain this. The belief in the inerrancy of the Koran has spawned numerous utterly fanciful propositions that the Koran contains all kinds of miraculous scientific predictions that now accord with recent scientific knowledge. That intelligent people can put forward such nonsensical argument is sad testimony of the degree of dysfunction in rational cognitions that the religion can induce. It would seem that a Muslim scientist, to conduct research, has no need of laboratory equipment or academic references. He need only open his Koran. This type of mentality is severely degrading to the progress and well-being of Muslim societies. The inability of Islam to come to terms with Darwin in the way that Christianity has done is characteristic of the damaging domination of doctrine over scientific knowledge in Islam. The loss of the rational basis for the existence of a Creator is the biggest challenge that any religion with creationist foundations must face. Christianity in general (apart from fundamentalist creationists), has faced the challenge by means of a retreat to a presumed compartmentalisation of knowledge. The ability to ignore the contradictions between belief and science then become more manageable. The failure of Islam to take this step is indicative of a dogmatism and fundamentalism that has wide social consequences. Adherence to doctrine and the failure of Islam The genius of Muhammad as a military general, mainly due to the degree of fervour he was able to instill in his troops, certainly meant that Islam was highly successful at military conquest during the early days of Islam.¹⁰ Until about the 12^th century, when the "gate of ijtihad", or door to independent thought, was closed, Muslim society led the world.¹¹ The emphasis on the gender role of women as child-bearers in Islamic society means that Islamic societies are still highly successful in achieving a high population growth rate. These factors are not beneficial attributes today's society. The main reason it may be said that Islam has failed, and failed its own believers, is in a humanitarian sense. Blindness to contradictions inhibits rational thought. Rigid adherence to doctrine, of which the rejection of Darwin is symptomatic, leads to an aversion to scientific method, and a slower rate of technical advancement. In the long term, technical progress is the source of all wealth, increases in living standards and the betterment of human well being. Thus, submission to Islamic doctrine does not just impose limitations on the acceptance of science. It inhibits social and economic progress generally. Numerous other doctrinal features of Islam that inhibit scientific, social and economic development may be identified. A telling description of the consequences, identified as a "knowledge defecit", may be found in the United Nations Arab Human Development Reports. ¹² A brief list of doctrinal factors that may contribute to this deficit is as follows.

limitation of labour force participation of women
undue emphasis on Islam in education.
time devoted to daily and periodic religious observances.
prohibition on the payment of interest.
conflict between secular and sharia law
lack of freedom of speech, which encourages corruption.
inheritance laws that prevent capital accumulation
reliance of Islamic trusts as investment vehicles
the doctrine of bidah, or aversion to innovation

All these factors, reflecting the submission to dogmatism, rather than the pursuit of knowledge via the exploration of doubt, engender a fateful degree of fatalism in Islam, and are the reasons for the failure of Islam. Darwin's major contribution was his identification of evolution as the explanation of our human and biological origins. He made the concept of a Creator God unnecessary, redundant and obsolete. He helped us to overcome ignorance and superstition, and to recognise humanity's true place in the universe. Atheists, humanists and rationalists and secularists however may rejoice. Let us hope that Muslims, Christians and all other religious wishful thinkers may soon join us in acceptance of reason and science. As ever, universal secular values, based on the principles of compassion, honesty, freedom and justice, provide the best path to peace and prosperity.

_______________________________________

Dr John L Perkins is a Melbourne economist and is a founding member of the Secular Party of Australia. (C) Copyright 2009 John L Perkins Home Notes: 1. This is an argument in response to one put by Prof. Graham Oppy, in his lecture of 9 Sept 2008. 2. There has so far been o response to my $100,000 Challenge. 3. This is my own interpretation, using the Dawood translation. As with the Koran in general, the ordering of the days of creation may not be supposed to be chronological. 4. See for example "The Muslim Response to Evolution" Abdul Majid, in The Science - Religion Dialogue. 5. See Darwin and God: can they co-exist? The Guardian, 03 July 2006. 6. See Call for Muslim Scientists - Join the Scientific Dissent From Darwinism, www.islamonline.net 7. See Harun Yahya - An Invitation to The Truth http://www.harunyahya.com 8. See "Evolution Arguments Headed for Islamic World", www.livescience.com. 9. See "The Big Religion Questions Finally Solved" Gregory S Paul, Free Inquiry, Vol 29 No.1, Dec 2008 / Jan 2009. 10. This is outlined in the book Muhammad: Islam's First Great General by Richard A Gabriel, University of Oklahoma Press, Norman, 2007. For a review see Islam's origins - Muhammad's military genius 11. For more details see "Prosperity and the rise and fall of Islam", John L Perkins www.faithfreedom.org 12. For an account see "Islam and Arab Human Development" John L Perkins, Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 24, Number 3.

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Islam is the Truth. It’s the

Submitted by AMIM (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 12:55.

Islam is the Truth. It’s the only God’s revealed religion in the world. Muslims believe in all the Prophets of God including Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. You CANNOT defeat a religion that was revealed from God and also preached by Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. You can try for your whole life but you will eventually end up into mere dust! On the other hand, Islam will be flourishing from America to Japan, from Norway to Australia, and from China to South Africa!

Charles Darwin was saying

Submitted by Halalpork786 (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 13:02.

Charles Darwin was saying simply," I am not against any God, I don't know God". He was a very fearful person, and he was a Christian. He used to pray; in fact he started to pray more after he wrote the theory of evolution. He became very much afraid; who knows, perhaps he was doing somthing against God. He had believed that God created the world, but the facts of nature were telling a different story---everything is evolving, life never stays the same..

God makes everything silly, small, arbitrary, meaningless, whimsical. Just that old man(Allah Dalla/ God) and he must have been really old---and then this idea of creation came to him and in six days he completed it. That's why the Church( Not Just Islam which came after Christianity) was against Charles Darwin: " You are saying that it is not yet completed, it is evolving. You are against Bible, the holy scripture. You are against God, against the idea of creation."

Why blame the Muslims for what was started by the Christians?

Both the belief systems;

Submitted by Halalpork786 (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 13:10.

Both the belief systems; Islam and Christianity are against Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.

Islamic pimp allah is just a

Submitted by proudkafir (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 13:29.

Islamic pimp allah is just a toilet tissue paper and that too used toilet tissue paper.Allah and the pedophile prophet rapist mohammad have contributed to the total destruction of culture and civilisation for 1400 years.The stupidity of the moscums and allha the pimp and the rapist mohammad have been unparalleled in the history.The moscums now are continuing the same nonsense taught by the syphilitic cretin mohammad and pimp allah

Quote from article: "There is

Submitted by Shafee al-Zindig (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 14:21.

Quote from article:
"There is no room for interpretations that allow the evolution of humans from our ape-like ancestors."

Instead Islam teaches the exact opposite, that their Allah created apes and even pigs from humans. And they have the gall to call their "holy book" scientific!

Another inconsistency in their illogical rejection of Evolution is that their god Allah did not rest on the Sabbath as opposed to the Bible because Allah, being all-powerful, does not need any rest. The process of creation is on-going as per their Quran. So why this silly rejection of Evolution by their moolas?

Islam and science cannot go

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 17:08.

Islam and science cannot go together, simply because it is the creation of a 7th century pedophile who has uneducated as he was uncouth. expecting science in Islam is a bit too much.

Islam oppresses women! The

Submitted by AMIM (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 17:09.

Islam oppresses women!

The image of the typical Muslim woman wearing the veil and forced to stay home and forbidden to drive is all too common in most peoples’ thoughts. Although some Muslim countries may have laws that oppress women, this should not be seen as coming from Islam. Many of these countries do not rule by any kind of Shari'ah (Islamic law) and introduce their own cultural standpoints on the issue of gender equity.

Islam on the other hand gives men and women different roles and equity between the two is laid down in the Qur’an and the example of the Prophet (peace be upon him). Islam sees a woman, whether single or married, as an individual in her own right, with the right to own and dispose of her property and earnings. A marriage gift is given by the groom to the bride for her own personal use, and she keeps her own family name rather than taking her husband's. Both men and women are expected to dress in a way which is modest and dignified. The Messenger of God (peace be upon him) said: "The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manner and kindest to his wife."

Violence of any kind towards women and forcing them against their will for anything is not allowed (4:19). A Muslim marriage is a simple, legal agreement in which either partner is free to include conditions.

Marriage customs thus vary widely from country to country. Divorce is not common, although it is acceptable as a last resort. According to Islam, a Muslim girl cannot be forced to marry against her will: her parents simply suggest young men they think may be suitable.

AMIN thank you for providing

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 17:19.

AMIN

thank you for providing us the much comic relief.

This is a statement written

Submitted by Marie (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 17:34.

This is a statement written by Muslim apologist Harun Yahya on how the earth was created:

It's important to properly understand the word "design." If Allah has created a flawless design that does not mean that He first conceived a plan and then followed it. Allah, the Lord of the Earth and the heavens, needs no "designs" in order to bring anything into existence. Allah is exalted above all such deficiencies. Both His planning and His creation take place at the same instant.

Whenever Allah wills a thing to come about, it is enough for Him just to say, "Be!" As verses of the Qur'an tell us:

This guy has written articles and books against Darwinism and evolution and they can be viewed on his website: http://www.harunyahya.com

Excellent article.

Submitted by Marie (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 17:35.

Excellent article.

Marie, Do u think that u

Submitted by AMIM (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 18:16.

Marie,

Do u think that u have any brain to think independently?

AMIM is becoming violent.

Submitted by Raja (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 18:31.

AMIM is becoming violent. Atypical symptom of peace loving ISLAMIC follower.

Hindutva Raja, No matter how

Submitted by AMIM (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 18:41.

Hindutva Raja,

No matter how much boot-licker of Christian Missionaries you may be, at the end of the day they will convert all of you to their religion! You don't even have any self-respect, boy! We know what type of background you come from.

That better than copy and

Submitted by Raja (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 18:49.

That better than copy and paste. Day dreaming is not bad for you.

Hindutva Raja, You are slave

Submitted by AMIM (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 18:55.

Hindutva Raja,

You are slave of the white supremacist Christians whose role model is Hitler, and not Jesus!

Just read your role model A

Submitted by Raja (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 19:10.

Just read your role model

A female suicide bomber killed 32 people and wounded 84 others south of Baghdad on Friday when she blew herself up on a major Shia religious pilgrimage route, police said. May be she was raped before being sent as a bomber.

They are following your Gods.

Submitted by AMIM (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 20:40.

They are following your Gods. For example, your lord Shiva beheaded his own son and an innocent elephant out of foolishness. Your lord Krishna killed lots of his own kith and kin mercilessly. Your lord Rama also killed lots of people. And the list is endless.

Amim, You are pathetic. How

Submitted by focussed (not verified) on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 22:26.

Amim,
You are pathetic. How long will you live in denial mode. There are no hindus in Iraq and if any of those suicide bomber handler comes to know what you are saying about them, they will come and blow you into pieces or maybe rape you and then send you as suicide bomber...
Have some shame and accept that islam=terrorism..

AMIN said They are following

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 04:51.

AMIN said

They are following your Gods.

So AMIN is basically accepting that the hindu gods do exist. Need I say more....

“God created every beast

Submitted by Habshi (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 05:52.

“God created every beast from water” (24:45).
The first life form originated in water. So true.

Man was created from clay (6:1, 15:26, 23:12)
Man`s body goes back to earth after life is over. So composition of body and earth has to be similar. So true.

and in other verses from water (21:30, 25:54), from dust (3:59, 30:20, 35:11), from the earth (11:61),
All true.
from a drop of ejaculated semen (75:37), gushing fluid (86:5) from a little germ (80:18) and from clots of blood (96:1), from dust and germ (18:37), dust, germ, then clot of blood (22:5), (40:67).

Naturally, it is description of sperm and egg. So true.
Mashaallah, I did not know Koran has so much truth.

Habshi says “God created

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 06:09.

Habshi says
“God created every beast from water” (24:45).
The first life form originated in water. So true.

The first life form originated and was not created. There is a lot of difference between the two, so what the quran is saying is not correct.

Man was created from clay (6:1, 15:26, 23:12)
Man`s body goes back to earth after life is over. So composition of body and earth has to be similar. So true.

lol, same in composition. There are so many people who creamate their dead, what about them. Even those who are burried have their flesh degraded due to the natural process of the dying of cells, rest are taken care by the worms.

and in other verses from water (21:30, 25:54), from dust (3:59, 30:20, 35:11), from the earth (11:61),
All true.

Yeah sure, all true only in the a Muslim's mind.

from a drop of ejaculated semen (75:37), gushing fluid (86:5) from a little germ (80:18) and from clots of blood (96:1), from dust and germ (18:37), dust, germ, then clot of blood (22:5), (40:67).

Naturally, it is description of sperm and egg. So true.
Mashaallah, I did not know Koran has so much truth.

Where is the egg described? And at which stage does an embryo resemble a blot clot? Only a muslim can come up with such stupidities.

The first life form

Submitted by Habshi (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 06:40.

The first life form originated and was not created.

Till such time you could say how did it originate, it is open. You are wrong to be conclusive.

There are so many people who creamate their dead, what about them. Even those who are burried have their flesh degraded due to the natural process of the dying of cells, rest are taken care by the worms.

Body contains water to the extent of 65 to 70%. When you cremate, water turns into vapour, organic and inorganic elements of the body oxidize and transmutate chemically, going back to earth. Those who bury, it is mostly organic process of transmutation, either directly or indirectly through worms.
Now read this along with what I wrote earlier. It answers next query as well.

Where is the egg described? And at which stage does an embryo resemble a blot clot?

I think you need to see formation of embryo. It starts like a fish, then gets like an amphibian with a small disappearring tail, gradually into a disproportionate brain and small body. Morphologically, it is nothing but a growing blood clot during this period (up to 4 to 6 weeks).The entire evolution of man could be seen during this 9 -10 month period of development of embryo. Now this is scientific viewpoint. You have to tell where Koran is in the picture (I thoght Koran justifies that by the verses quoted, I am not sure though that is why I wondered).

The first life form

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 07:27.

The first life form originated and was not created.

Till such time you could say how did it originate, it is open. You are wrong to be conclusive.
Scientific researches have been able to give us an insight into as to how origination of the single cellular organism took place. Research is going on,. That does not mean that some one needs to accpet god or a creationist theory in the absence of scientific evidence.

Yes humans are organic matter just like mamals or other life forms. This has more to do with evolution and our origin. Nothing to do with the quran.

i am aware of how the human embro develops, and at no stage does it resemble a blood clot. The quran also says that semen comes from between the ribs and the backbone, which is not true. So which part here is scientific.

That does not mean that some

Submitted by Habshi (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 07:36.

That does not mean that some one needs to accpet god or a creationist theory in the absence of scientific evidence.

It is a valid point.

i am aware of how the human embro develops, and at no stage does it resemble a blood clot.

You are wrong there. Morphologically, it resembles a blood clot till 4-6 weeks. When limbs start showing, that is when you break out of this morphological appearance.

The quran also says that semen comes from between the ribs and the backbone, .

I don`t know what are you talking here. It is so ridiculous.

The quran also says that

Submitted by Habshi (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 07:44.

The quran also says that semen comes from between the ribs and the backbone,

It is so ridiculous man, that I am laughing now. Semen comes from testicles, you should know that. In fact, semen needs 2 degrees higher temp to stay right, that is why it is in testicles that are out of the body dropped in a sack. Semen will die inside the body at body temp. Why do you take cover of Koran for your ignorance.

The quran also says that

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 08:03.

The quran also says that semen comes from between the ribs and the backbone,

No Habshi, I am not ignorant. I am merely telling you what is written in the Quran. I know that semen is produced in the testicles and I am also aware of the temperature required for the semen to develop.
As for laughing on what I said, well the entire Qur'an is laughable, so have fun.

By the way I was telling you

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 08:07.

By the way I was telling you what is written in the Qur'an, a book which you claim as scientific, I never said that I agree with anything written in the Quran partially or fully.
Why do I need to take the cover of the Qur'an, muslims do that. I am not a muslim, not anymore. My pupose of writting that was to tell you that if there is even a single absurdity in the Qur'an it stands proven that it is either not divinely ordained or it is corrupted. Either ways Islam looses its credibility as the true religion of God.

I hope that you get the

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 08:13.

I hope that you get the picture Habshi. Let me post the Sura for you:

يخرج من بين الصلب والترائب
Yakhruju min bayni alssulbi waalttara-ibi (tranliteration)

Literal translation: It emerges/appears from between the spine and the rib bones.

Yusuf Ali: Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.
Pickthal: That issued from between the loins and ribs.
Arberry: issuing between the loins and the breast-bones.
Shakir: Coming from between the back and the ribs.
Sarwar: which comes out of the loins and ribs.
Khalifa: From between the spine and the viscera.
Hilali/Khan: Proceeding from between the back-bone and the ribs.
Malik: that is produced from between the loins and the ribs.
Maulana Ali: Coming from between the back and the ribs.

All the above translation were made by Muslims and not Non-Muslims. Now obviously these translators have managed to hide many of the mistakes in the Qur'an. However there was no way they could get around this one.

Hindutva ibrahim, I never

Submitted by AMIM (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 08:21.

Hindutva ibrahim,

I never said that I have converted to Hinduism. Don't put ur words into others' mouth to make a fool of yourself. I would rather die before doing that!

However, I am studying about Hinduism and their Gods. For example, I am currently studying about Krishna who had sex with more than 16,000 women and girls- the greatest sex-maniac ever. He also killed lots of his own kith and kin. I also came to learn that Rama allowed devil Ravana to kidnap his beautiful wife Sita. And later on the same Rama threw her on fire to test her virginity! I am just thinking how sensible humans believe these kinds of low quality scoundrels as their holy Gods!

AMIN You are a terrorist and

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 08:38.

AMIN

You are a terrorist and a paedhile lover, if you are not a paedophile already. You are an uneducated, uncouth and irrational bum from Pakistan. If you were an Indian Muslim, I would have still forgiven you, but being a Pakistani you are fair game for me.
Now listen bumhead, your prophet was a rapist, a paedophile,. a child molester, a moster, a theif, a terrorist.
You and studying about other religions. You are not studying, you are merely copy oasting stuff. So dont try to come into unfamiliar terroriry BOY. I know my way around Hell, BOY, i will take you there and loose you! So take care you rotten PAKI!!!!!!!!!

Oh! You are a rotten

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 08:44.

Oh! You are a rotten pakistani. The by product of a worthless education system. A country which was crushed thrice in wars by my nation. Don't you even dare raise your voice in front of me. You are nothing to us Indians, nothing more than the creatures who crawl the earth's surface in search of some subsintence.
Pakis are the world's worst human beings, if at all they can be called Humans and you are a Mohajir, the same people who are getting kicked by the Punjabis day in night out!!!!!!! lol, what do you even know about studying, you rotten fool!!

Muhammad was a paedophile, he raped 6 year olds. Does that make you feel good, you dumb pakistani, YUCK!!!! that is word that comes to mind whenever I think of Porkistan, YUCKS!!!!! that is what I think of whenever I think of the subhumans living in Porkistan, filthy vermin, who sell their own offsprings to Arabs!!!! Shame on you and on all of Porkistan!!!!

AMIN says I never said that

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 08:55.

AMIN says

I never said that I have converted to Hinduism. Don’t put ur words into others’ mouth to make a fool of yourself. I would rather die before doing that!

Good, so die!

Ibrahim, I never knew that

Submitted by rationalist (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 10:25.

Ibrahim, I never knew that AMIM is a Pakistani. I thought he was an Indian Muslim. BTW, now I realise he cannot be repaired because he doesn't understand the meaning of the term 'leela' of God in Hinduism. May be he must do a search as to what greatest of the great scientists, philosophers and thinkers such as Einstein, Henry David Thoreau, Neil Borh, Erwin Schrödinger, Carl Sagan, and Julius Robert Oppenheimer say about Bhagavad gita, Vedas, and Vedanta.

May be his brain is not able to handle such things.

BTW, my friend has written an astonishing rebuttal to Abul Kasem's derogatory article on Women in Vedas. He is looking for a website to publish it. Any suggestions? I have proofread his rebuttal. He has provided word to word translations of the verses quoted by Kasem. I believe Kasem has risked himself by not studying the manuscripts of vedas. Anyway, let us wait till it gets published.

All was going well until I

Submitted by eigthman (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 11:30.

All was going well until I came to this:

"For example, the implementation of the Judaic concept of the “promised land”, in the creation of a Jewish state, has led to an acute travesty of justice for the Palestinians, and inflamed Islamism worldwide, to the detriment of all."

Now the truth of cowardice and lying reaches new heights under the subterfuge of 'reason' and 'science'. This filth talks about 'truth' and then proceeds to expound the biggest lie ever created. Too bad that amongst all that 'reasoning' and 'enlightenment' that knowledge of history isn't put into the mix. Just as there is no limit to islamic lying so it is with 'rationalist's and 'scientists'. As if the 'scientific method' is any guarantee of moral rectitude. As if there were any greater scientists in the world than in pre Nazi-Germany. What a bunch of mealy mouthed low-life hypocrites.

' We can't bag islam if we don't falsely bag the Jews as well' - Anti-Semitism as 'equal opportunism' in sanctimony.HA!

The fear of the 'scientists' is revealed as the same fear that motivates all anti-Semites and muslims. In Jew hatred they have their common cause.

They fear that the God of Israel exists and that this truth is in the realization of His covenant with His people. Now the lines are drawn as when Moses stood as one man against an empire!

Not all the world can resist this outcome. The world has tried and failed to gas the Jews. The 'palestinians', a bastard people, created to further the lying perfidy of English imperialism, used by araby as the pawn and dagger of pan-arabism, supported by the entire world as greed triumphs over their debts and promises; and now the 'rational', 'truthful' trash of atheists - who spout the jibberish of injustice in Melbourne Australia whilst they hold a land purloined and maintained by force, decimating its inhabitants.

The Jew is feared because they are a beacon to indigenous peoples that the arbitration of history is not final. The God of Israel did do battle many times to conquer Canaan. He has done so again to deliver His people from the ashes of Europe. His sword has not yet been sheathed and His final justice has not yet been delivered! The 'palestinians' will be that example and the world will humble itself for it has sinned a great sin. This filth of 'science' will eat those lying words.

Israel, the living affront to muslim, Christian and atheistic doctrines all make common lies when it comes to the Jews. But God has ordained His punishments. Two million muslims in England and twenty millions in Europe are trashing these places. On top of Australia lie 300 millions more to descend upon these lying hypocrites in God's good time.

What lie can withstand the power of God or truth?

AMIN said I never said that

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 17:03.

AMIN said

I never said that I have converted to Hinduism. Don’t put ur words into others’ mouth to make a fool of yourself. I would rather die before doing that!

Exactly KAMIN, that is what I said to you, GO DIE. You uneducated worthless piece of S****. Pakistanis like you don't deserve to live anyway. You are born cowards.

Pakistanis are the BIGGEST COWARDS on the face of planet earth. Even after being spanked by Indians repetitively they fail to learn the lesson. Even this Pakistani called KAMIN, refuses to learn his lesson after being thoroughly spanked by Indians so many time.

DIE KAMIN DIE!!!!!!!!!

rationalist If you are

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 17:10.

rationalist

If you are really interested in having a rebuttal made, you can do at www.lulu.com. You can send a link of the rebuttal to Abdul Kasem and IW.

[...] between Islam and the

Submitted by Submission to dogmatism and refusal to accept Science and Ra (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 19:36.

[...] between Islam and the theory of evolution is the subject of a very interesting presentation by Dr John L Perkins, the past February 10, at The Atheist Society Darwin Day Special Event, in [...]

Englishman Charles Darwin had

Submitted by Mateus (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 23:14.

Englishman Charles Darwin had the great priveledge to have been born in a reformed christian country .Had he been born in an islamic or athiest hell hole no one would have ever heard of him .

Incidently it was the christian crusaders who drove the ignorant islamic hordes out of Europe and not the athiests .Because of this men like Darwin have been free to persue controversual scientific study .

eigthman What you said is so

Submitted by Mateus (not verified) on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 23:31.

eigthman

What you said is so true .

Thank you Ibrahim, I shall

Submitted by rationalist (not verified) on Sun, 02/15/2009 - 02:07.

Thank you Ibrahim, I shall inform my friend about the website you have recommended.

Mohammads god was always the

Submitted by Mateus (not verified) on Sun, 02/15/2009 - 02:25.

Mohammads god was always the fallen Lucifer .

Not all christians or Australians think this way .

As the book says " man,s wisdom is Gods foolishness" .

Ibrahim, Thanks to your

Submitted by rationalist (not verified) on Sun, 02/15/2009 - 03:49.

Ibrahim, Thanks to your advice; my friend has published a rebuttal to Abul Kasem's article- women in Hinduism. It can be accessed at: http://www.lulu.com/content/6097850

Yakhruju min bayni alssulbi

Submitted by Habshi (not verified) on Sun, 02/15/2009 - 09:44.

Yakhruju min bayni alssulbi waalttara-ibi (tranliteration)

I thought over it and wondered why a book of religion should be used to interpret a fact of science or vice versa.

1. AMIM Says: On the other

Submitted by Melanie (not verified) on Sun, 02/15/2009 - 16:24.

1. AMIM Says:
On the other hand, Islam will be flourishing from America ... to South Africa!

Jesus did not preach Islam btw. Read a Bible you will see the word of God. You are right btw islam has put South Africa well and truly in the map of terrorist scum hot spots. My guess is that Hamas have been placing people there. So much so that South Africans have to pay for a visa to come to the UK these days!

This called "Darwin

Submitted by antarix (not verified) on Mon, 02/16/2009 - 16:57.

This called "Darwin Theory".Darwin theory is now a days social subject not science.Darwin even himself have dought about his theory.Scientist from all time from the day of Darwin theory production till today are doubtful.Come out with some scientific facts or established science which contradicts Qouran because theory can take u turn like so called muslim here.

I thought over it and

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Wed, 02/18/2009 - 05:32.

I thought over it and wondered why a book of religion should be used to interpret a fact of science or vice versa.

Habshi, you ran away from the point after claiming that there is science in the Qur'an. Now this is an absurdity and it is you muslims who go around claiming that the Qur'an is full of science. But when that claim falls flat on its face, you change the topic.
It goes on to show how serious you are about debating the Qur'an. It was you who was bewildered on seeing the science in quran and could not stop saying masallah.

ibrahim wrote: I thought

Submitted by Marie (not verified) on Wed, 02/18/2009 - 23:41.

ibrahim wrote:

I thought over it and wondered why a book of religion should be used to interpret a fact of science or vice versa.

Habshi, you ran away from the point after claiming that there is science in the Qur’an. Now this is an absurdity and it is you muslims who go around claiming that the Qur’an is full of science. But when that claim falls flat on its face, you change the topic.
It goes on to show how serious you are about debating the Qur’an. It was you who was bewildered on seeing the science in quran and could not stop saying masallah.

There is no science in the Quran, the Quran is merely a book of the Muslim faith, it is suppose to be a religious text ( although it is really of text of Muhammed's political ideology ).

Religious texts are not science books, they are books of faith and God's glory. If a person tries to promote a religious text as a science book, then they are a fool.

I've read your debate with Habshi and much of his arguments for the Quran is full of logical fallacies.

The Bible says the earth is

Submitted by Raisin Head (not verified) on Sun, 03/01/2009 - 23:16.

The Bible says the earth is round
The Quran said flat
Now we know which

The Quran claims Muhammad caused the eclipse
We have always had eclipses

Semen is in testiclaes
If Allah is god and created man didnt he know

If Evolution was the process of man
When was the white/yellow man evolved
All the apes were brown

Mankind is too complicated to have evolved.
Evolving has no need of a brain.

Creation makes more sense as the chair is made of wood not evolved from a tree.

if we evolved why change to a

Submitted by Raisin Head (not verified) on Sun, 03/01/2009 - 23:21.

if we evolved why change to a need for a sperm and egg. Save women all of the misery on 9 months. Sex is good without the 9 months. Mankind has regressed not evolved.

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