The Politics Behind the Hijab
Submitted by Mumin Salih on Wed, 02/18/2009 - 06:10
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Hijab as an Islamic icon
There is little doubt that hijab has become a symbol of Islam just like the crescent. The irony is that both of these two Islamic icons, which are widely believed to be Islamic, are in reality not parts of Islam. I do not want to spend much time discussing the origin of the crescent logo, but it certainly was not introduced or suggested by Mohammed or any of his successors, and there is no evidence that the later Islamic dynasties of the Omayyads and the Abbasids have used it. What matters now is that the crescent does symbolize Islam and that Muslims like it. It is there on top of every mosque and every minarat and in the centre of many flags of Islamic states.
The crescent may refer to Islam but it doesn’t say much about it, which explains its remarkable absence from the flag of Saudi Arabia. As we know, Saudi Arabia follows the teachings of Mohammed Ibn Abdul Wahhab (1703-1792), the founder of movement that carries his name, which put Islam back on track. The core of the teachings of Abdul Wahhab was to filter Islam from the impurities that gathered on it over the centuries and bring it to its original shape as Mohammed left it. Abdul Wahhab’s strategy was not to compromise because it’s only Allah he had to fear. He succeeded in bringing Islam back to form by removing all the impurities, which he called ‘dalala’. The Saudi flag is an honest expression of what the country and Islam stand for; to spread the word “no God but Allah, Mohammed is his messenger” by the sword.
Hijab and headscarves
The word Hijab is currently used to refer to the headscarf that covers the hair of a Muslim woman. In this article, both words will be used to refer to a woman’s head dress. Until recently, many Middle Eastern Arabs used the word ‘Isharb’ as a name for women’s head dress, but that foreign name is rapidly becoming obsolete in favour of hijab.
Contrary to what most people think, hijab is a fairly recent introduction to the Muslims’ societies and started to gain popularity only in the 1990s. In fact the popularity of hijab in the Middle East came about so swiftly that the Arabs did were not sure which word to use to describe it. They had a selection of words including hijab, niquab, burqua, Khimar, and more. So it was left to the press, and it’s usually ignorant journalists, to make their choice. Of these words, the word hijab has the most precise and clear definition in the Arabic language; it means a total barrier between two things.
Hijab is a purely political issue
I do not want to bore the reader by discussing the sharia validation of hijab, or the lack of it, because this is NOT the issue. The important fact to know about hijab is that it is purely a political issue that is being advocated by the Muslim Brotherhood movement. The hijab to the Muslim brotherhood is like the red flag to the communists.
Our understanding of what the Quran and sunna say about women’s dress is irrelevant because what matters is what the Muslims and their scholars understand. There is no doubt that the vast majority of sunni Muslims and their scholars agree with the already established sharia rules regarding the Islamic dress code. That of course includes the Muslim Brotherhood scholars, the wahhabis and the Taliban.
The women’s dress code in Islam, just like anything else in Islam, is open to many interpretations. It is possible to argue that women dress can be anything, or almost anything, that appeals to the mind, and still be able to support the argument from the Quran and the sunna.
· It is possible to argue that women should be covered from head to toe, which in my opinion, is the honest and straightforward understanding of Islam. This is the view of all devout Muslims who do not compromise to ‘appease’ their desires and wouldn’t change Islam to fit modernity but rather change modernity to fit Islam.
· It is possible to argue that women are only allowed to show one or both eyes.
· It is also possible to argue that women are under no obligation to wear any special Islamic dress. This is my favourite argument, which I often use to defend my position when I happen to be in a Muslim community. Some Muslims, even in the west, are rude enough to ask me (as a Muslim) why I do not ‘order’ my wife to wear hijab.
· However, it is rather difficult to argue that women can expose their faces and cover their hair, there is nowhere in the Quran that says that! This Islamic fashion has no foundation in Islam and is prohibited under proper Islamic authorities like Saudi Arabia and Taliban.
Against all the odds, the headscarf has risen to become the most popular Islamic dress; it also assumed the name hijab even though it doesn’t describe it at all since the headscarf doesn’t form any barrier between a man and a woman.
The Muslim Brothers (ikhwan in Arabic) are happy with this widespread use of headscarves, even though in their writings and teachings they have a crystal clear vision of the Islamic dress which is no different from that of the wahhabis.
What makes the Muslim Brothers to be happy with the headscarf? Why are they happy with half measures?
This Islamic irony is not unprecedented. In the past, the Muslim Brotherhood had accepted temporary solutions in hard times, just like their prophet did fourteen centuries ago. Accepting half measures is only a waiting tactic because as Muslims they still work hard to take all what they want. This explains why the leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood, from 1928 to the beginning of the Islamisation of Europe in the 1980s, and the female relatives of some of them, did not follow a proper Islamic dress code.
The Islamic Dress Code
According to sunni Islam, the entire body of a woman is considered ‘awra’, which is an Arabic word that refers to private parts that shouldn’t be seen by others. Therefore a Muslim woman should be completely covered with loose-fitting clothes to completely obscure the outline of the female body which can also be a source of sexual arousal. A woman’s voice is also considered as awra because it has the potential to cause sexual arousal; therefore women should be careful with their tone when they speak to men.
On the other hand, some scholars consider the genitalia to be the only part of the male body to be awra, but the general view is that men need to cover from the waist to the knees. Muslim men should grow beards, but not moustaches, and should wear garments that do not reach the ankles.
The above is the proper Islamic dress code, which will be forced on any society once the Islamists have control on that society. It is already applied in Saudi Arabia and the Taliban controlled areas.
Muslim women’s dress before the hijab
Before the current hijab fashion, Muslim women (at least in the Middle Eastern countries) used to be covered to various degrees, on cultural rather than religious basis. In some societies women were covered from top to toe, while in others they just followed the latest western fashion. In general, women in cities were more likely to wear western clothes than women in rural areas, but that had nothing to do with degree of their adherence to Islam.
In the 1920s two important Islamic movements appeared in the Middle East, the Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. The two groups have very similar understanding of Islam as evidenced from their teachings and writings; basically they were two sides of the same coin. However, each group had to adopt a completely different strategy that suited its own environment but without departing from the guidance of Mohammed’s sunna.
The Wahhabis were allies to the Saudi clan who managed to subjugate the entire Arabia by force. Spreading the Wahhabi Islamic teachings was straightforward; Arabia was simply forced to adopt the Wahhabi Islam. This is in sharp contrast with the situation in Egypt where the Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928. There were signs of secular trends in the Middle East, and Egypt was more open to the west than any other Middle Eastern country. The Muslim brotherhood had to work in a hostile environment because neither the government nor the people were in the mood to listen to them. Egypt to the Muslim Brotherhood was like Mecca to Mohammed; the leaders of the movement had to adopt a careful strategy similar to that of Mohammed’s when he was still in Mecca. On the other hand, Arabia to the Wahhabis was like Medina to Mohammed where he unleashes the full force of Islam against Arabia.
While still weak, the Muslim Brotherhood’s strategy is to move slowly and carefully without upsetting the society by showing them the full picture of Islam. However, implementing the full Islamic sharia including the Islamic dress code has always been a central demand; they only needed to wait for the right time.
The Muslim Brotherhood’s demise of 1952-1970
The Muslim Brotherhood believes that the most practical way to implement sharia in a country is to take control that country, through jihad, and force the Islamic rule on its society. This is a well known Islamic strategy that worked well with Mohammed and his followers; the success of the Wahhabis in Arabia is a living a reminder. The brotherhood movement had serious problems with its chronic hunger for power, which lead the movement to infiltrate the army and government departments and to indulge in a series of political assassinations.
The Muslim Brotherhood’s dream nearly came true in 1952, when a group of army officers, some with sympathy to the Muslim Brotherhood, staged a military coup in Egypt. The leaders of the Muslim brotherhood approached the new leader, Gamal Abdul Nasser, offering him support if he applies the Islamic sharia; they specifically mentioned the Islamic dress. Nasser reportedly pointed out to them that their own daughters go to university uncovered, so why do they want all Egyptian women to be covered. Nasser, however, had different plans in mind and was too powerful to need their support. It became clear to the Muslim Brotherhood that the new leadership refuses to be influenced by them; therefore they reverted to their assassination policy. After a failed assassination attempt on Nasser, the Egyptian government responded by a crack down on the movement and imposed total ban on its activities.
Although banned in Egypt, the Muslim brotherhood was still active outside the country, thanks to the generous support from America and its friendly allies like Saudi Arabia. However, all that political and financial backing was no consolation to the Brotherhood movement, which remained helpless against the powerful Egyptian propaganda machine. Its members were branded, quite correctly, as terrorists who use religion to achieve their goals, and for nearly two decades, they failed to gain any significant popularity in the Middle East.
Resurgence of the Muslim Brotherhood
The political picture in the Middle East changed dramatically after Nasser’s death in 1970 and the appointment of Sadat as his successor. The new president allied his country with the America, and pursued a policy that was a virtual reversal of that of his predecessor. In an attempt to overpower the political groups that opposed his policies, Sadat lifted the ban on the Muslim Brotherhood, released their prisoners and encouraged the movement to go into action. The gates of heaven opened wide to the Muslim Brotherhood who, for the first time, enjoyed the backing of the governments of their home country, and other Middle Eastern countries, as well as America and the west. They wasted no time and took control of the mosques, the universities and the media. Lifting the lid on the Muslim brotherhood was probably one of the most doomed decisions of recent times. Sadat paid the price of his decision with his life when he was assassinated, by the Muslim Brotherhood, in 1981. Joining forces with their Wahhabi brothers, the Muslim brotherhood became an international force to reckon with; their evil activities spread in lightning speed claiming hundreds of thousands of lives. That was the beginning of the current wave of Islamic jihad that started, by the Muslim Brotherhood, in Afghanistan then moved to the Middle East causing civilian unrest in Syria 1981 then swept Algeria and Egypt in the early 1990s and the rest of the world since then.
The Muslim Brotherhood seeks dominance through intimidation, just like Mohammed did fourteen centuries ago. They dominate the Muslims’ societies by using religion as a tool and intimidate the politicians by using the people in the streets as indicators for their influence and power. There is no better indication for the public support than the scenes of streets full with women with headscarves and men with beards. The current Islamic dress, although not yet properly Islamic, serves as a living opinion poll that sends a powerful message to the authorities.
The Muslim Brotherhood cannot rely on forcing men to grow beards because this is only a sunna(preferred) duty, but they can force women to wear hijab because it is a fard(obligatory). Unlike a full veil, a head scarf is a compromise that appeals to modern women and doesn’t cause resentment of those not so religious women or societies. The headscarf serves as an introductory hijab for Muslim women, who once put it on cannot take it off. In Egypt and the West Bank, women are virtually forced to wear the hijab by the aggressive advertisement in the streets and public transport depicting women who do not wear hijab as prostitutes.
Beyond Hijab
It is noticeable in Muslim countries that an increasing number of women who used to wear headscarves have upgraded to full veil. Those women were initially told they only needed to cover their hair to become good Muslims, which worked as the bait to enrol them to fundamental Islam and those after prayers lessons. They soon discover they are way behind in their religious duties and there is more to be done and more to be covered. Eventually, all women who live in an Islamic state will be asked to wear full body covers, willingly or by force, which is the stated plan of the Muslim Brotherhood.
The full veil has caused some antagonism from the public in western countries because of well justified security concerns. However, I think hijab poses even more threat to our national security than the veil because of its acceptance by the society. Most radical women, including those who carried out suicide bombing, only wear headscarves with no material veil. With such a mask of innocence and moderation that conceals her real intentions, a radical Muslim woman can infiltrate deeper into the society to unleash the evil of Islam.
The difference between a woman with a veil and a woman with a hijab is like the difference between an enemy in uniform and an enemy in disguise. The Muslims’ uniform is a thoub (a dress) and a beard for men and a full veil for women. The Muslims I fear most are those who are disguised in moderation because they are the darlings of the western governments, which select them to key positions. These eloquent and moderate looking Muslims can do immense damage to our societies, and their strength lies in their disguise.
Muslim women are often asked to wear hijab from a young age; of course they had no choice but are educated to believe that was their choice! In western societies, Muslim girls develop an image problem and become self conscious of their unusual dress. Muslims tend to be aggressive in propagating hijab; those girls who would rather not wear it fall under immense social and moral pressure, or rather intimidation, to do so. This is true even in western countries, where Muslims tend to live in Muslim neighbourhoods and socialise mainly with other Muslims. The Muslim brotherhood strategy in spreading hijab in small societies is the same they use in Muslim counties, which is to associate hijab with good conduct and bare hair with prostitution.
There are Muslim women, who live in the west, and would rather not wear hijab at all. In theory, they have full rights to be able to make their choice but they are denied this basic human right. It is sad that nobody rises to defend the rights of those women, who are so intimidated that they cannot ask for help or express their free wishes.
Veil is truly an angram of
Veil is truly an angram of evil!
Islam is truly evil.
Pimp allah and his side kick rapist pedophile mohammad bastard are truly evil.
Stop the veil and stop the evil practice stat.The sooner it is the better its for the world.
[...] Francesca wrote an
[...] Francesca wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptThe crescent may refer to Islam but it doesn’t say much about it, which explains its remarkable absence from the flag of Saudi Arabia. As we know, Saudi Arabia follows the teachings of Mohammed Ibn Abdul Wahhab (1703-1792), …. In the 1920s two important Islamic movements appeared in the Middle East, the Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. The two groups have very similar understanding of Islam as evidenced from their teachings and writings; … [...]
Hijab is to protect women`s
Hijab is to protect women`s modesty. Salih is a fool, does not understand what he writes. How about local postman raping his mother who is without hijab? Who will he blame then?
Salim Says: Hijab is to
Salim Says: Hijab is to protect women`s modesty.
What a bull........African woman walking around bare bodied, they dont get raped? Asian women here walking around without the hijab they too dont get raped?
Salih is a fool, does not understand what he writes.
No I think its you who is a fool and do not know what ure writting about.
How about local postman raping his mother who is without hijab? Who will he blame then?
So you will blame the woman as usual. Its always the woman folk eh!. Its the men who cannot control their sexual urge, the women who got the blame.. how nice! So you think even if the woman wearing hijab they will not get molested? Come on! Give me a break will you.
You know what I think..... all this thing about hijab and dressings is the sign that the muslim are becoming very superficial and fragmented. You only look good from the outside but inside you're so rotton... like the fruit, look good, clean and neat only from the outside but when you cut deep its all full of worms.
Just look at the comment of
Just look at the comment of Salim, typical mindset of muslims. That's why some commenters here call muslims "sub-humans" although the term sounds offensive and I do not really like it.
- A beautiful young lady in her t-shirt and jeans walking in the streets near muslim neighborhoods she deserve to be raped according to Salim!
- A christian walks in the streets of Saudi Arabia with the bible in hand, he deserve to be jailed according to Salim!
- A man walks in the streets of Pakistan with the jewish dress code he deserve to be killed because he is a jew according to Salim!
And after all this muslims complain of people becoming Islamophobes.
What morons these moscums
What morons these moscums are! Phew.the moment they look at a woman with out the evil veil they will pounce on that woman and rape her.Ahh the bastard mohammad has set an example you see.Any woman with out the evil hijab is either a loose moslem woman or kafir woman and both are game for sex.Hey I am with out hijab and am ready for sex is perhaps what they are saying to these bloddy moscum bag moslems.There is limit to the stupidity, or so i thought.No moscums drag you down and down to the level of the pedophile rapist bastard mohammad.
I remember an incident in Sodi barbaria.I had to interact with a sodi moslimah in an office on a regular basis and she used to wear hijab but tried not to cover the face.( she was quite pretty and she was aware!).Few times sodi muttawas were a bit annoyed that a kafir was joking with moslimah! believe it or not she was forced to wear a face covering evil veil and my interaction with her was reduced as well as they removed the responsibility which would make her come in contact with me! This lady was remotely rlated to royal family as well! such is the evil of veil. islam is evil bastard mohammad was a rapist
"moron.... bastards" are
"moron.... bastards" are words I thought unbecoming. If you have never been a muslim before... I like to say that such words are unnecessary. You dont have to like them if you dont want to.. or at least be polite. Its tells a lot about your personality.
Are you here to vent your anger.. for some of us we still have muslim brothers and sisters. They are not moron or bastards.. they are still our flesh and blood. Why can't we be nice to them...for many its not their fault, they are a victim too. Many are trap and they just don't know how to get out from it or are trying. At lease show some compassion!
Salim,if u people see every
Salim,if u people see every woman with out hijab as vagina whose fault it is, what is the difference between u people and animals
Imagine one fine sunny day
Imagine one fine sunny day this cretin moscums mother is walking along the road.Its a bright sunny day and cool breeze is just too tempting to not let the hair down. She decides to let the hair down by removing the hijab.As soon as this moscum cretin sees a woman with out a hijab, he would pounce on her and rape her.She was inviting this on her as she was hijab less.Such is the level of moscum brain activity,that even a dead stone has more impulses.the only part of the these fellows working( at least they hope ) is their dik and nothing else.These dik fixated cut dik fellas are a shame to humanity
To shameless liars like Salim
To shameless liars like Salim who always falsely claim that these mobile tents protect women’s modesty, here is an apt link to debunk their nonsense.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29083688/
“Egyptian Women Fight Sexual Harassment
Self-defence classes gain in popularity in this Muslim country”
Here are some random quotes from this article dated February 18, 2009
“It's been common knowledge for years that the problem was rife, with women mostly talking privately about it.
The study by the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights showed that 83 percent of Egyptian women and 98 percent of foreign women surveyed said they are sexually harassed. Even more startling: 62.4 percent of men surveyed said they harassed women.
The survey also found that what a woman wore — in a country where the Islamic head scarf is common — did not matter. Of those who reported being harassed, about one-third said they were wearing a scarf and conservative clothing. Just under one-fifth said they were even more covered up — donning a veil and an all-encompassing cloak.
The high rate of harassment points to larger problems in this strict Muslim society. Egyptian women rarely report being harassed, to avoid public embarrassment or alleged dishonor to their family. Police and security forces have generally taken little interest in stopping the practice, sometimes even harassing women themselves.”
Read it all and despair.
See the point is not to call
See the point is not to call human beings as anything other than a human being.What would you call this fellow here who says hijab is a sign of modesty and hijabless women invite rape on them? A nice good moslem ? perhaps.
What do you call a group of ( say a billion) people with same mentality and who would want to impose the piss ( sorry) islam and blabberings of a cretin rapist pedophile? pious moslems? perhaps.I am extremely happy that I was never born in a moslem family/ country and never had close contact with a moslem family for 30 years of my life.the interaction was limited to a few educated moslems who did come across as decent people.My experience in sodi barbaria opened my eyes and was foolishly ignorant.Till then I used to think( even now to an extent I think) that all religions are an attempt to realise god in some way or the other.Some people bang their heads 5 times a day ( could not resisit to add) some people like to get banged 5 times a day and some people listen to bhajans, My experience in UK, US and middle east with christians and moslems changed my perception.I realised how intolerant the followers of these religions are and how cruel they can be Both these people when in majority can be cruel to the people of other faiths and that's because of the evil B& Q. All my child hood teachings about " all religions are same and a way of finding the god inside you" all religions teach the same like compassion. mercy etc to human beings and animals " all religions are a way of disciplining your inner self" all went for a toss.Not because there is no truth but because these follwoers of abrahamic religions are the worst in mistreating the followers of other belief systems.I still do not mean to hurt you or your feelings, but I find no way of expressing my scorn at these ideoligies that preach haterd, pedophilia kill the kafirs etc. If i say I love moslems and islam and the pedo prophet rapist bastard mohammad, would I be speaking the truth? Will it help any one? I am sure you have friends and relatives who are pious moslems and you perceive them to be good.Still to me any one following the qrand and the drivel in qrand is an arsehole.Any one trying to impose on me the evil ideology is nothing short of bastard.If you and your friends ( who i may never come across) have not in any way followed the tenets of the rapist pedophile mohammad, I have absolutely nothing against you all.When you read the qrand as a kafir and when as a non moslem kafir have for generations experienced thousands of years of bloodshed by the scums of these two religions, how would you react? Its not easy( considering my background) for me to accept that people from other religions can be so poisonous.But life does teach you a lot and travelling to different countries opens the mind.
But even in me, qrand elicits nothing but hatred towards the followers of this evil.So you can imagine how much haterd moslems must be harbouring against kafirs.Islam is evil and pure evil.Cleanse the evil and things will be ok.
9. proudkafir Says:[1] See
9. proudkafir Says:[1] See the point is not to call human beings as anything other than a human being.What would you call this fellow here who says hijab is a sign of modesty and hijabless women invite rape on them? A nice good moslem ? perhaps. What do you call a group of ( say a billion) people with same mentality and who would want to impose the piss ( sorry) islam and blabberings of a cretin rapist pedophile? pious moslems? perhaps
They are trap in their own. Just like somebody who is the victim of abuse... the circumstances they are brought up with make them as such. So we need to understand where they are coming from. To show vulgarity especially verbally, makes you no different then them.
[2] am extremely happy that I was never born in a moslem family/ country and never had close contact with a moslem family for 30 years of my life.the interaction was limited to a few educated moslems who did come across as decent people
Just as I've suspected. You never know them personally...but your own perception based on what other feed you. Is that your hatred?
[3] My experience in UK, US and middle east with christians and moslems changed my perception.I realised how intolerant the followers of these religions are and how cruel they can be Both these people when in majority can be cruel to the people of other faiths and that’s because of the evil B& Q. ......
I have my fair share of bad experience in UK too.......but experience is meant to me make you a better person. Experience is the best form of learning process..Some of the muslim here you see have no experience at all with outside contact but with their own. Thus for them what they are reading in here seem strange and shocking. We need to understand, try to put ourselves in their shoe. No you will not understand because you have never been in their place... I have and and many more ex muslim in here have been. We know what it is like. Some have personally email me to say their feeling seeing these non muslim comeing here using vulgarity and such bad language. How are we to convince them since we are no better. We are uttering words of hatred and abuse.
[4] I still do not mean to hurt you or your feelings, but I find no way of expressing my scorn at these ideoligies that preach haterd, pedophilia kill the kafirs etc. If i say I love moslems and islam and the pedo prophet rapist bastard mohammad, would I be speaking the truth? Will it help any one?
No you have not hurt my feeling but in a way you may have hurt other feelings. Nobody can hurt me without my permission. That is what I am trying to say here, in your good intention of wanting to show the truth, you are hurting others in return. In your need to try to change, you have become distructive and intolerance towards others. In any war verbally or physically it always the innocent by stander will be the victim.
To respond to your other ramplings I just have this to say ....
Yes I still have relatives, brothers, sister and including my own mother who is a muslim. They are not bastards or moron by my own flesh and blood. They may be narrow minded but they are good people. They are just like most of us before, trap in their own world.. perhaps they and many more here are trying... to find a way. It is not that easy.... they are probably trying to gain the confidence... people like yourself and many others who spend the time abuse them verbally are not helping. You are just here to find an avenue to vent your anger.. using them as the punch bag. That is all i have to say. Thank you.
My religious teachings ( I
My religious teachings ( I would call it as parental guidance to be more specific) tells me that( wrongly and hopelssly incorrectly) that all religions preach the same! I know for sure now, that the evil of mohammed and christianity do not preach the same as my religion.I suspected vaguely as not being the same, though could not confirm due to lack of time and inclination to learn more about the evil christianity and eviler islam.
Please remembr I do not intend to convert you or any one for that matter.Conversion is a disease of the sick mind of moslems and christians.
Please read the following paragraph slowly and carefully as the moslems, proud christians and some ex moslems too have the chronic effect of brain damage due to the evil bible and qrand indoctrination.
My parents taught me that religion is a way to find God in others as much as in yourself as the spirit of God is there in all creatures great and small.
If you call this devil's worshipping and devil's utterings as the evil christians and missionaries then and now are saying and moslems want me dead because I do not follow the evil rapist pedophile mohammad, then I have no words to say.
This is what the evil christians did in 1534 or so "In Europe, the Goa Inquisition became notorious for its cruelty and use of torture, and the French philosopher Voltaire wrote "Goa is sadly famous for its inquisition, which is contrary to humanity as much as to commerce. The Portuguese monks deluded us into believing that the Indian populace was worshiping The Devil, while it is they who served him."[4]
Perhaps as a voracious meat eater and as a person used to seeing the animals being slaughtered with blood splattering etc, you may not understand this.It's my duty to respect the spirit of God even in samll creature like an ant!
Be that as it may, you were hurt not because the words used have been directed at you or your relatives.You were hurt by the truth. Truth can be quite traumatic and hurtful, particularly when you realise the truth bit late. You followed the lies of rapist mohammad for a long time and your relatives are still folowing the same and that realisation has upset you. Any ways I am quite aware that words can be quite upsetting, even though used generally and vaguely and my sincere apologies for upsetting you.Please do bear in mind that those were unintentional words not to cause any mental assault to any one in particular.
You do realise that still there are many of your relatives trapped in blissful ignorance and my ramblings are directed at them! Its not. My rambblings are at the evil ideology of the pimp allah and pedophile rapist mohammad.
During my childhood days while being educated in schools, we were taught all wrong things about our country and our philosophy, as we were a defeated race.We were exhausted by the repeated attacks by the barbarian moslems and christians who never knew the meaning of art, culture, music, dance,literature, good life style, respect to the philosophy of non violence, who never knew how be a good human being in simple terms.
We are waking up albeit slowly.the barbarians next door and moslem barbarians inside ( the product of arab rape of unsuspecting non moslems) the country though are trying to derail.We shall succeed. Please digest these and then come back!
You know proudkafir just from
You know proudkafir just from reading your post I imagine that you are naturally a funny big guy and no matter what we can be friends. Repeated attacks from christians? But India is a secular country which is supposed to crack down these evil christians and put them to jail when necessary for repeatedly attacking people. As long as we do not hear reports from Indian authorities in the media that christians in India are not that troublesome probably your rants against them are rather a personal issue not to be taken seriously.
The article says-- ""--Our
The article says--
""--Our understanding of what the Qurand and sunna say about women’s dress is irrelevant because what matters is what the Muslims and their scholars UNDERSTAND.""
.
The fact is not what the Muslims and their scholars UNDERSTAND. rather How they interpret Qurand the Islamic book of prostitution for their political purpose.
Every one is free to use a prostitute as and how they want to by paying the right price. The so called Islamic Scholars/ Mullahs/ Ayatollahs like Jerk off Zakir Naik are the best examples.
And who said Islam can not be reformed? Just read the following--
""The Saudi flag is an honest expression of what the country and Islam stand for; to spread the word “no God but Allah, Mohammed is his messenger” by the sword.""
--and look at the picture of Saudi pig Osama bin lund holding an AK47 instead of the primitive Bedouin sword and the Islamic book of prostitution called Qurand. The present day jihadi Pigs like Osama bin Lund and Jerk off Zakir Naik have more faith in the western infidel invented weapons like AK47 than the Islamic book of prostitution Qurand.
proudchristian Repeated
proudchristian
Repeated attacks from christians? But India is a secular country which is supposed to crack down these evil christians and put them to jail when necessary for repeatedly attacking people. As long as we do not hear reports from Indian authorities in the media that christians in India are not that troublesome probably your rants against them are rather a personal issue not to be taken seriously.
Well ProudChristian do we hear in the Media that Islam is not a religion of peace but a cult of hatred?
we don't that, do we? do you know why, because that does not sell. The media does not market products which are unsaleable. Likewise the evil people who call themselves Christians in India are not exposed by the media. What Proud Kafir said are not his own thoughts but a reality. The Christians living in Indian are no better than Muslims, infant the Indian Christians part with the Muslims and Islam at every possibly opportunity.
Most Christians try to show that they share a lot of common stuff with muslims. You should see how well the Christians in India gel with the Muslims. By Muslims I specifically mean the brow beating, Hindu hating, jihad crying Muslims.
The chief reason for Christean to ally with the Muslims is to somehow convert the native people, or somehow prove that they are inferior.
Sadly Proud Christian, these are things the media will never tell you. These are things you have to experience for yourself.
Proud Kafir: What is evil
Proud Kafir:
What is evil about christianity? Name just one.
That is christendom in India
That is christendom in India not Christians.
Jesus taught christianity. Romans made Christendom and they did the Crusades. Jesus never said kill unbelievers, kill anyone. In fact Jesus said Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Islam said kill them and so did Muhammad who WAS Allah. If Catholics had followed Jesus no Crusades would have happened. Muhammad made up the Quran and Muslims obeyed Allah aka Muhammad ben Abdullah aka Kuntun bin Abdullah.
Btilly, I support Ibrahim's
Btilly, I support Ibrahim's view on Christians and Muslims in India. Now, if something wrong is done to so called Christiandom followers in India will you still not label them as Christians? Crusades did happen as a result of OT teachigns. Are OT not Christian teachings?
Believing Christians have some sort of modus operandi to convert non-Christians. The first thing you tell when you come across a Hindu or a Buddhist is that their system is faulty and that Jesus is the only way for salvation. Why can't Christians respect other faiths for what they are? Is Christianity all perfect? Every religion has its own ups and downs. Giving money to convert the gullible, distributing false literature about other religions is one of the favourite time hobbies of Christian missionaries.
Read this news: http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=8211&SKIN=C where Christian missionaries have set fire a Hindu temple in Nagaland in India because Christians are majority there. Now you tell it is Christiandom and not Christianity? I can quote a series of verses from OT that justifies destroying worship places of other religions. You worship Jesus or his mother; no problems at all. But why should the same Jesus-worshipping charlatans destroy places of worship of others?
This is how Christianity aka Christiandom spread across the world. The voilent methods of conversion are still happening in Nagaland, Tripura, and Manipur. Buddhist temples in Thailand are set on fire. Why why why? What then is the difference between Muslims and Christians? Muslims do it openly, whereas Christians use n-number of tools to convert; if they cant succeed they use voilence to convert people.
http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/pic1/list.html See the pictures how Buddhist temples were set on fire in Thailand. BTW, Buddha taught more noble principles than Jesus did, yet he didn't claim himself to be the only son of God. Are people wrong in following Buddha? What is causing Christiandom to set fire on worship places? As usual you reply like Muslims: Catholics did that but not the Protestants. Muslims say - killing an innocent is like killing entire humanity; similarly you quote Jesus- love your neighbours, dont kill da da da.... then you forget the OT verses. If they are preaching hatred why don't enlightened guys discard them for good? Is Pope issuing any statement to that effect? No, they cant because they can increase their numbers only with OT. Christiandom then uses Al-Taqqiyya trick better than Muslims do.
Proudkafir wrote: "Till then
Proudkafir wrote:
"Till then I used to think( even now to an extent I think) that all religions are an attempt to realise god in some way or the other."
"All my child hood teachings about ” all religions are same and a way of finding the god inside you” all religions teach the same like compassion. mercy etc to human beings and animals ” all religions are a way of disciplining your inner self” all went for a toss."
"My parents taught me that religion is a way to find God in others as much as in yourself as the spirit of God is there in all creatures great and small."
"My religious teachings ( I would call it as parental guidance to be more specific) tells me that( wrongly and hopelssly incorrectly) that all religions preach the same!"
"During my childhood days while being educated in schools, we were taught all wrong things about our country and our philosophy, as we were a defeated race."
Dude are you serious? I mean no offense, but seriously was this the type of crap you were raised to believe in? That is just sad and pitiful.
Ibrahim, I would like to know
Ibrahim, I would like to know why only in India Christians and Muslims join hands, whereas everywhere in the world they fight tooth for tooth? Why Christians, the followers of Jesus, side with separatist Muslim elements from India? How long are Indian Muslims and Christians going to eat their food from the same plate?
Proud Kaffir, you are wrong
Proud Kaffir, you are wrong in your assumptions. Your religion never teaches that all religions are the same. In fact if you read Bhagavad Gita, you will find that everyone should have a discriminatory power to judge between evil and good. Forget all scriptures, and read BG once.
wagamama wrote: "Proud
wagamama wrote:
"Proud Kaffir, you are wrong in your assumptions. Your religion never teaches that all religions are the same. In fact if you read Bhagavad Gita, you will find that everyone should have a discriminatory power to judge between evil and good. Forget all scriptures, and read BG once."
I believe proudkafir has no religion and he believes all religions are false, makes them blind, drive people to commit violence against each other, and hinder people's potential.
Isn't the Bhagavad Gita a religious text in Hinduism?
Marie, Proud kaffir himself
Marie, Proud kaffir himself has not studied from scriptures. Anyway, his scriptures definitely don't preach that followers of other religions are heathens, pagans, and end up in hellfire for not believing in a God.
Isn’t the Bhagavad Gita a
Isn’t the Bhagavad Gita a religious text in Hinduism? >> True
wagamama wrote: "Marie,
wagamama wrote:
"Marie, Proud kaffir himself has not studied from scriptures. Anyway, his scriptures definitely don’t preach that followers of other religions are heathens, pagans, and end up in hellfire for not believing in a God."
How do you know he has not studied from scriptures?
**How do you know he has not
**How do you know he has not studied from scriptures?
>> It is because from the way he responded. In India, curriculum in schools is controlled by communists. They preach that a tyrannical ruler like Shah Jahan's era was a golden rule; Aurangzeb, his son, was a noble king; Don't forget they even teach that Mohammed Ghori and Ghazni invaded India not to destroy temples but to loot and distribute to the poor! Only in the last 10 yrs or so, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Pharsees, Jains and other sects are fighting hard to teach the correct history. I will tell you, Christians support Muslims to the core on such issues because they both think they have a common God.
Marie this is for you:
Marie this is for you: http://www.dailymirror.lk/DM_BLOG/Sections/frmNewsDetailView.aspx?ARTID=...
Sri Lankan Buddhists are so fed up with these Missionaries (aka religious salesmen) that they are introducing anti-conversion Bill. Any fraudulant conversion will be dealt severely. I am not sure how many Xian missionaries will go there after any disaster! Mind you it is already passed in 5 states in India.
wagamama wrote: "**How do
wagamama wrote:
"**How do you know he has not studied from scriptures?
>> It is because from the way he responded. In India, curriculum in schools is controlled by communists. They preach that a tyrannical ruler like Shah Jahan’s era was a golden rule; Aurangzeb, his son, was a noble king; Don’t forget they even teach that Mohammed Ghori and Ghazni invaded India not to destroy temples but to loot and distribute to the poor! Only in the last 10 yrs or so, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Pharsees, Jains and other sects are fighting hard to teach the correct history. I will tell you, Christians support Muslims to the core on such issues because they both think they have a common God."
Sounds like the same thing with the American education system, except our system is not controlled by the Communists, only the politically correct, multi-culti, far left-leftists.
12. proudkafir Says: Be that
12. proudkafir Says: Be that as it may, you were hurt not because the words used have been directed at you or your relatives.You were hurt by the truth. Truth can be quite traumatic and hurtful, particularly when you realise the truth bit late. You followed the lies of rapist mohammad for a long time and your relatives are still folowing the same and that realisation has upset you.
This statement really tells me that you never bother to read my message. Its either you never understand or you choose not to. You are no different than those muslims you call brain damage.
I move away from islam when I'm at 16 yrs old.. at my own accord not persuaded by some anti muslim activist. I am a 46 social activist.. my area of interest is to rehabilitate abuse children and women . Please remember that if your brain still have some brain cells functioning. Your hatred have consume you to such an extend that you have no capacity to think rationally and logically.
I shall respond to all your assertion accordinly in due time as right now I have to answer to call of duty....
Wow such a lot to respond and
Wow such a lot to respond and no time!
Have I read my scriptures or not? What's the meaning of Sarva dharma smambhava? All religions are equal.The point that this statement is trying to make is all religions or paths lead to god ? truth?.At the time this was written the dead jew on a stick was not even conceived and the rapist pedophile was not in sight at all!
I believe people who kill in the name of religion ( christians and scumbag moslems) can not understand this.
I said this statement that was taught to me was inapplicable universally because religions like christianity and islam promote killing of the others never preach peace and coexistence.Unlike many others which preach nonviolence and peace.
The problem with english words is that words do not necessarily mean what they are meant to mean!
When I say truth hurts, what I meant to say was the truth is this " Islam is stupid and violent" and as soon as you realised this truth and were compelled not to follow as it was lie" you left islam.But you had a whole lot people who you like and who are still stuck to this idiotic islam.When an outsider points out this simple fact, ofcourse it hurts. It hurts because you are unable to convince the others close and dear to you about this idiotic and violent islam. You realised that in Islam as a non arab moslem you have a peripheral role as ansars for arabs( helpers) The arabs are stupidest race I have come across.As a general rule i find the arabs( men) have a very low IQ and understanding of the situation.99% of the Arab men I have interacted with have their interests focussed on pudenda and nothing else! Non Arab Moslems are not that stupid, but the islam makes them subsidiary to arabs who are plain idiotic. This I believe is due to inbreeding amongst moslems in general and arabs in particular that they are very stupid. imbeciles would be the right word here. Repeated inbreeding causes nervous system damage ( this for info of those who may be ignorant)
For a bright non arab moslem, he would find it difficult to be a subsidiary of imbecile arabs.( At least I would have been if I were to be moslem) that's the reason there are many non arab moslems who are against islam.Taslima and salman.
So many people read the message board and why take a pot shot at my message? Could you not have ignored my message?
Its because it did disturb you. Where have I taken your name unlike you have ? You were upset as you were at some point a moslem, may be for reasons beyond your control.When I post against moslems who believe in pedophile rapist mohammad as an example to follow, why should be considered as blind hatred? It's the moslems who are fed with blind hatred along with breast milk as an infant. I have no hatred against moslems at all.Even if I have what actions of mine are causing untold miseries to moslems?
My capacity to think rationally and logically has been put to test umteen number of times and glad to say have been more than successfull. My reasoning has stopped in convincing even a few moslems about the evil nature of islam and eviler nature of people who want to convert people's religion by setting one against the other.
Logically speaking how do you dismantle islamic evil with out hurting either mentally or physically, the followers of this evil ideology? You can say mohammad slept with a child bride and so was a pedophile as per present day definitions of pedophilia. Is it the truth? Yes.Will it hurt the sentiments of moslems? Of course the moscums would go beserk..How do you gently tell the not so bright moslems that rasool rapist did commit atrocious pedophilia?
I am not consumed by hatred.I am a professional and employ 35 people of all religions! I have a fairly comfortable life with 7 cars and 3 servants and 4 houses in different parts of the world.How does it affect the truth which is" mohammad was a rapist pedophile bastard, islam is evil and followers of this evil ideology are equally evil. Does my owning a car etc lessen my charges against the pedophile mohammad? Am waiting for your erudite non moslem reply.
Some body asked me what is evil about christianity and name one!!! There are literally thousands and thousands of concepts in christianity that make it evil, as evil as islam if not more.
Christians in the name of christianity and jesus christ have massacred millions and you ask me what is evil? From today every day I shall post 1 evil quote from bible and draw your attention to how the evil quote is directly responsible for the christian massacres on non christians, Please refute with out personal abuses.
I can be quite stubborn in sticking to my views as long as I can shown the falacies of my logic.Then and then only I am willing for a change.
Evil bible quotes
"
Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord. (Colossians 3:18 NAB)
The same christians who went beserk about mohammad asking husbands to beat the wives were curiously silent about this.Any woman would find this an evil principle. Compare this evil to what has been taught for 5000 years prior to this.Husband and wife take an oath together where they swear in front of elders and society and ? God Each will support the other to the fullest extent possible in Dharma( righteousness) Artha ( economics and finances) Kama ( Love not just sex but in all aspects of love) moksha ( final attanment of nirvana) and we support each other equally shoulder to shoulder neck to neck! This is the concept of equality that was preached 6000 years ago or may be more!
Evil qrand tells the husband beat the wife and evil christianity tells the wife, you are inferior.Please clarify in what way these concepts of evil B & Q are any way superior to earlier concept of husband and wife are equal partners yoked together in 4 aspects of married life.( money, sex, love, and spiritual nirvana) Am waiting for a very erudite comment
That is christendom in India
That is christendom in India not Christians
It frankly does not matter to us whetther it is christiandom or christianity. Frankly I don'e even care. All I know is that Christians are as much responsible for India's plight as the Islamists.
Both groups use similar tactics. However the Christians are more tacful, they don't perpetrate the violence themselves, but use their cronies the Commies and the Maoists to create hell for Indians, speciafically the Hindus. I know just too many Christians who are not very different from Muslims. The Christians even own the Media companies in India. The Southern Baptist chruch has more than 40% shares in most of the media companies in India.
If you really think that these people are wrong, then speak against them and spread awareness about these people in your country. If you can't do that then don't lecture us Indians, we don't care two hoots about Christianity or christiandom. They are both foreign philosphies which are spreading like a cancer in our society.
If these so called knights of Christiandom don't stop, they will be dealt with by the people. after there is a limit to everyone's patience. We Indians don't need to know about the message of your God, we want liberation from the evil scum that Europe exports to India.
So thank you very much...
wangama said Ibrahim, I
wangama said
Ibrahim, I would like to know why only in India Christians and Muslims join hands, whereas everywhere in the world they fight tooth for tooth? Why Christians, the followers of Jesus, side with separatist Muslim elements from India? How long are Indian Muslims and Christians going to eat their food from the same plate?
They will eat out of the same plate for all times to come. Christians and Muslims in India are both the two sides of the same coin. I have yet to meet a Christian in India who has respect or love for his nation. The Christians love to cry on national TV and tell their sob stories.
They have their own scerewed up Tv channels where they proudly display the converts that they buy from all communities. When they deal with hindus and Sikh converts they use all sorts of vile language against their former beliefs. But if it is a Muslim convert to christianity, then they are extremely and their words are on the verge of saying something like "ISlam is almost as good as Christianity."
Have you ever seen a Christian organisation or the Christian chruch oppose the Islamic radicals who kill people at will? YOu will never get to see them either. So forget about the Christians, they are as disloyal to our nation as many of the muslims. Infact while you will find many loyal Muslims, you will hardly find a single loyal Christian in India. Shame on the Christians living in India.
To dear marie Can you please
To dear marie
Can you please let me know what is so wrong in beleiving in the philosophy that tells you All religions lead towards GOD /Truth as opposed to a philosophy that says
" kill all thos who do not believe in my god"
I suppose as a christian and for a moslem its perfectly ok to say believe in my god or else! Did your parents teach you to kill non christians? I guess not.
If not what else they taught you? respect people of all faiths? Right?
Did you /do you have non christian friends and co wrokers etc? Would you want to kill them/convert them/despise them for their unchristian beliefs? Yes or no?
I am sure you will say NO So what in effect you are practicing is what my religion said 6000 years ago that all religions lead to GOD! Now do you understand me? So dear marie what is there so sad and pitiable in my thought process that allows peaceful coexistence? The same things that you are forced to practice due to secular laws and not GOD's laws, becomes sad?
Dont mistake me. Is english not your first langage? Certainly it is not my first language.
Wangamama The GITA
Wangamama
The GITA Bhagwadgita is not a religious scripture.Its a part of the epic story mahabharatha. When Arjuna facing the enemy, who also happened to be his brothers, has serious doubts about the righteousness of his actions of killing his own brothers in battle field. When he expresses his skepticism to lord krishna, the sanjaya reveals the the true pearls of wisdom. its applicable in todays practice as well.We do come across moral dilemmas of significant proportions and we have to make decisions.This is what the Gita is all about.
There is nothing called Hinduism, or Hindu scripture. "Hindus" was a geographical term applied to all those people who were settled on the other ( eastern) side of river sindu by the ancient persians ( not the current bandicoots of iran and Afghanisthan). Persian language did not have the sound SA. They replaced all sounds SA with HA. Hence Sapta ( week in sanskrit) becomes hafta in persian.Sindhu becomes Hindu. I am sure Iranians in FFI can confirm this. A transfer of the name from India to Iran, would have taken place in pre-Proto-Iranian times, since the initial *s was regularly changed to h- in proto-Iranian. [23]! so the term saraswathi becomes harahuati in persian!
The word " hindu" has a geographical connotation and not a religious connotation.That being the case your arguement that GITA is Hindu religious scripture is exposure of your limits of of knowledge about the sanatana dharma of the Bharatha,
The earliest scriptures of this dharma/ philosophy/ divine revealation if you may was Rig veda.This was compiled around 15000 years ago! or may be more.The reason why I say so is because the river saraswati in Gujarath was in full flow those days and that was 25000 years ago! the river dried up 8000 years ago and satellite images can provide proof of the course of river saraswathi
The other Vedas were compiled subsequently over a period 1000 years.there is no single authored book in hinduism! You need to read 4 vedas, then upanishads,then vedoupanishads, then bhagavt puranas, then the epics Ramayana and Mahabharatha and then the Arthashasthra,kamashastra,then the natya shastra. Music is a part of veda and so is Bharatha natya! Ayurveda is also a part of veda and so is vastu shastra.When you look at the whole aspect of the sanatana dharma depicted in all forms, as much in science as in art, you realise that this philosophy can not be contained in a small book called GITA! Still I give in and say yes Gita can be considered as essence of the sanatana Dharma condensed and crystal clear.
The reasoncas to why the evil missionaries of british empires had to suppress this information from one and all was because as per the evil christianity teachings, the earth was only created on 4th october 4004 bc 900 am and there can not be river saraswathi if no earth! The very foundation of christianity was at stake.So we all blindly rogered them Veda is 1500 years old! a few years before christ was born. The information is spreading so rapidly that the evilness of these abrahamic faiths is now getting exposed.Even christians do not believe in the crap that earth is 4000 years old! Actually the epics of Ramayana and mahabharatha were written perhaps a million year ago! Now prove me wrong.prove That I have no knowledge of scripture.prove that your knowledge and understanding is more logical.
Ibrahim, Sad that I didn't
Ibrahim,
Sad that I didn't know that ugly part of the story about Indian christians. Well the world is too big to know everything going on you know. Actually I learn that curtural relations is a complex phenomenon you see. While in other parts of the world muslim and christians is kinda oil and water, it is strange that both of these gel together in India. Something to research on.
However Christianity is very unique. Unlike Islam which is basically a uniform cult with its adherents having similar attributes all over the world (e.g. jewish hatred, cultural outlook, etc), christianity is very adaptive and christians tend to interprete and understand the bible on their personal basis. For example I see Christinianity in South Korea very different from that in America. The former has got some eastern cultural ideals while the latter is agressive, western type, capitalist christianity.
Well the bottom line is all christians all over the world believes there is no way they could be considered perfect. We all struggle to live up to Christ's standards but in most cases we fail because no christian is ready to walk the extra mile, turn the other cheek. Those Indian christians you've encountered are far worse because they act opposite to what Christ taught. Well let us all wish that there be a day when all injustices will be repaid and all the shed tears will be rewarded.
( 1 )Wives, be subordinate to
( 1 )Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord. (Colossians 3:18 NAB)
your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you, ( genesis 3:16 ) it is the curse of the god for eating the fruit, and can u tell me what evil is there in the verse u mentioned,you take u r own body u cant say both u r hands r equal,take u r eyes,take ur ears,scan u r kidneys they differ in size,take u r testicals they too differ in size,you take any field one sits on the top and comes the branches, prime minister, chief minister,chief justice, dgp etc. ( 2 ) Actually the epics of Ramayana and mahabharatha were written perhaps a million year ago! Now prove me wrong.prove That I have no knowledge of scripture.prove that your knowledge and understanding is more logical. The earth was without form, and void ( Genesis 1:2 ) This shows that earth there before god made man,do u know why woman bring forth children in great pain. TO WOMAN HE SAID: " I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY YOUR SORROW AND YOUR CONCEPTION ; IN PAIN YOU SHALL BRING FORTH CHILDREN. ( GENESIS 3 : 16 ) So i fear the mother of u r god rama also CONCEIVED him in great pain.
Proudchristian what you have
Proudchristian
what you have said is a good way to rationalize things, but the fact of the matter is that Christians are as much a threat to my country as muslims. So for me both Islam and Christianity is a threat.
Like you said that Christianity has taken up different forms all through the world, so I have intense negative feeling towards the form of Christianity as practiced by Christians in India.
I could go on like this, but the vast majority of Christians whom i met in the west were very good people who did not have anything in common with the Christians living India, in terms of their outlook. That is why I don't go hard on Christianity or Christians in general if you would have seen any of my earlier posts.
proudkafir Says : Wives, be
proudkafir Says : Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord. (Colossians 3:18 ) Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you ( genesis 3:16 ) it was the curse of the god for eating the fruit, have you ever looked at your body,right hand is stronger than your left hand like wise in the case of ears,eyes,if u scan your kidneys they to differ in size,you take any field there will be one on the top, school = principel, company= ceo, country = president or prime minister etc,keeping your hand on u r heart can u say woman is as equal as man.(colossians 3:19 ) Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter towards them.
proudkafir Says :Actually the
proudkafir Says :Actually the epics of Ramayana and mahabharatha were written perhaps a million year ago! Now prove me wrong.prove That I have no knowledge of scripture.prove that your knowledge and understanding is more logical ( 1 ) The earth was without form, and void, earth was there before man was made, do u know why woman bring forth child in great pain. TO THE WOMAN HE SAID: " I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY YOUR SORROW AND YOUR CONCEPTION; IN PAIN YOU SHALL BRING FORTH CHILDREN; (GENESIS 3 : 16 ) I fear your god rama mother also conceived him in great pain then u r wrong.
The earth was without form,
The earth was without form, and void ( genesis 1:2 )
proudkafir wrote: "To dear
proudkafir wrote:
"To dear marie
Can you please let me know what is so wrong in beleiving in the philosophy that tells you All religions lead towards GOD /Truth as opposed to a philosophy that says
” kill all thos who do not believe in my god”
I suppose as a christian and for a moslem its perfectly ok to say believe in my god or else! Did your parents teach you to kill non christians? I guess not.
If not what else they taught you? respect people of all faiths? Right?
Did you /do you have non christian friends and co wrokers etc? Would you want to kill them/convert them/despise them for their unchristian beliefs? Yes or no?
I am sure you will say NO So what in effect you are practicing is what my religion said 6000 years ago that all religions lead to GOD! Now do you understand me? So dear marie what is there so sad and pitiable in my thought process that allows peaceful coexistence? The same things that you are forced to practice due to secular laws and not GOD’s laws, becomes sad?
Dont mistake me. Is english not your first langage? Certainly it is not my first language."
Dude I am not attacking your beliefs, I merely misinterpreted your statements. In fact I don't knew anything about your belief system, so there is nothing for me to attack in the first place.
As for your statement about all religions lead to God, that is your belief to which you are entitled to. As for what you say about the Bible supposedly stating kill those who do not believe in my god, I've already gotten into this discussion with you before and my stance is still the same, which is there is no such teaching in the Bible. As for other religions, they are people's attempt to reach God. But do I believe all religions lead people towards God? No, but that is my belief. Does that mean I do not believe in a peaceful coexistence between religions? No, I do believe in peaceful coexistence, but in reality it seems my beliefs are merely a dream. If you do not like the fact I do not believe all religions lead to God, even though I have stated I wish for a peaceful coexistence between religions, then that is your problem.
As for my parents, the only thing they did was take me to Church. My parents did not pray nor did they talk about our faith. I am the more devout Christian in our home.
My grandmother was a Jew and my friends do not practice Christianity nor do they practice any other belief system. They just slack off. No that does not mean I am practicing what your religion teaches, because while I don't believe all religions lead people to God, I do respect their right to freedom of religion ( in other words, I don't force my belief down their throats ), I do believe in the concept of freewill and if they don't accept Jesus Christ as savior, then so be it. There is nothing I can do about it, it's in the hands of God. You don't like what I believe? Tough.
By the way other then taking
By the way other then taking me to Church, my parents did not teach me anything about Christianity and respect for other faiths. That I learned through the my Church, by studying Christianity by myself and asking questions.
No my Church does not preach hatred against nonmuslims. We do read verses from the Bible during Church service, but the violent verses are not seen as something generations of Christians should be carrying out.
My belief about the right to freedom of religion, well that is something I developed on my own.
Although I believe that no matter what I say, you will keep on rambling and get pissed off anyway.
Proud Kaffir, it is true that
Proud Kaffir, it is true that Bhagavad gita is a part of Mahabharat. You know something called Gitopanishad was created out of it. Likewise, when Gita says all paths lead to God, it talks about only good paths. Please read all chapters before coming to a conclusion. If Krishna wanted to tell all paths, irrespective of good or bad, will lead to Moksha, then he shouldn't have mentioned about those that take up demoniac ways. BTW, going berserk to kill people in the name of religion is also path, eih? Gita asks everyone to distinguish between good and bad and take up a good path.
As far as coining the word Hinduism is concerned, it is only Dharma and nothing called Hindu ever exists in our scriptures. What I said was whatever has been preached to you in your school is just a Marxist edition of religion or history. I bet you to read Gita once and then say whether it says even bad path will also lead to moksha. Never Never and Never.
Finally, in Hinduism there are many philosophies yet they coexist. Some believe individual soul is God, yet many upanishads (Ishopanishad) confirm that soul and supersoul reside in the same body. So we have: Advaita (Monism) and Dvaita (Dualism). Gita also says soul is a part (amsha) of God. Sarva Dharma Samabhava is a new age coin and doesn't appear in scriptures. Vedas or puranas or upanishads dont say that. It was coined by Gandhi in 1930. Secular (or Sickular) politicians are using it as a slogan to get votes.
Ibrahim wrote: Have you ever
Ibrahim wrote: Have you ever seen a Christian organisation or the Christian chruch oppose the Islamic radicals who kill people at will? YOu will never get to see them either. So forget about the Christians, they are as disloyal to our nation as many of the muslims. Infact while you will find many loyal Muslims, you will hardly find a single loyal Christian in India. Shame on the Christians living in India.
This is very interesting; I have never ever seen a single Church organisation opposing Islamic radicals. However, if some Hindu outfit is involved in a minor incident, they cry all over the media.
I had attended upon request a Xmas prayer ceremony in Dec last year in Australia. They had prepared jalebi, mysore paak, gulab jamoon, rasgullah, halva etc as an offering for Jesus. After the prayer, they ridiculed Hinduism and Buddhism mainly as pagans. However, they could not blaspheme Islam. I know they fear an attack from Muslims, even when Muslims were not present on that occasion. They feel that Hindus, Buddhists, and Jains would remain silent even after criticizing their faiths. I guess the speakers didn't know that some Hindus were also present there on the occasion. After the speech I asked them if they had read any scriptures from Hinduism. All they said was we worshippped false Gods. Well, then I said whatever sweets and food they had prepared were once invented by Hindus and are still a part of Hindu culture. Can they give up those dishes? Many of them felt ashamed by that reply. You are right, they are not at all patriotic towards India
Proud Christian, you need to
Proud Christian, you need to understand that Christianity plays different kinds of techniques to advance its numbers in PAGAN countries. For Christians, South Korea, Thailand, India, Nepal, Burma, and Sri Lanka are pagan countries which should be harvested so that they stop worshipping false Gods and worship the only savior which is Jesus. Once a country is uprooted of its civilization and made to look towards European or American Chritian countries, it becomes a slave. That is why no Indian Christian will ever mention the contribution of his/her Pagan ancestors (Eg Buddha, Aryabhata, Vedavyas, Ravivarma, Shivaji, Rana Pratap Singh, Guru Govind etc). Instead, they have become the slaves of agressors (Dutch, British, French etc). The same holds for Indian Muslims. As Ibrahim rightly pointed out, there is a good bit of chemistry between Indian Christians and Muslims. That is why no Christian will ever oppose whenever Islamic terrorists strike. It is only in unconverted pagan countries you will find an extremely good relationship between Muslims and Christians. However together they fight against the pagan religion(s) of that country. Once they have sufficient converts, they will fight amongst themselves. The saddest truth is- they cannot live without the native PAGAN culture or customs. My house is mine, but your house is also mine....... is what they say.
Marie oh marie! ( couldnt
Marie oh marie! ( couldnt resist that captain oh captain)
You still have not read what I wrote.You are practicing secularised version and sanitised version of christianity.
Its ok to believe that the heathens go to hell for their utter disbelief about the dead jew on a stick.But to exterminate them for their disbelief in the dead jew on the stick,is not possible even in a christian majority country!
I have exactly said that.That you can not wish the non chrisatians away.
Keep the religion at home and pray to which ever god you want, it's no ones' business.The moment the home god starts dictating the terms to one and all
there is bound to be a problem.Just like the moscums do praying on the roads on fridays blocking the traffic in different parts of the country.
I also am just wondering how to deal with moslems who are evil followers of the rapist pedophile mohammad? I am not an expert in understanding the criminals and so I refuse to deal with them. I know only one way of avoiding them.Stay away from them as far as possible. Moslem who believes in the rapist pedophile is as bad as the one who believes in the same pedophiles teachings and closes his brains to the mohammad's pedophilia. At the least my belief system does not say that you have to be terminated as you have no faith in my god.It does not give you a name , unlike you christians who would want to call us heathens, pagans, devil worshippers etc. Even now I refuse to call you names simply because my religious teachings are not bigotted. Moslems call us kafirs. All I can do is call them rapist pedophile's followers. The christians to be called the followers of the dead jew on a stick. Though these terms do indicate the true nature of these two cults, I would refuse to call them so.
All religions are MAN MADE.That's the reason there are inconsistencies, incongruities, falacies,mistakes, asininities,absurdities in all religions. Islam takes the cake as it were because the scum bag are killing in the name of islamic pim allah and the rapist pedophile bastard mohammad. The killing is increasing every day and still the pimp allah is not happy.He wants the blood of kafirs as much as the blood of moslems.
Now evil verses of bible one a day
Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20
Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5
Some one aksed me tell me one evil in bible? Woh I would say tell me one good thing in bible!
tch tch dream on man The
tch tch dream on man The earth was without form, and void ( genesis 1:2 )
Do you want to know the writings 20000 years before the dead jew on a stick was even thought of about the creation?
read on
"A time is envisioned when the world was not, only a watery chaos (the dark, "indistinguishable sea") and a warm cosmic breath, which could give an impetus of life. Notice how thought gives rise to desire (when something is thought of it can then be desired) and desire links non-being to being (we desire what is not but then try to bring it about that it is). Yet the whole process is shrouded in mystery.
Where do the gods fit in this creation scheme?
The non-existent was not; the existent was not at that time. The atmosphere was not nor the heavens which are beyond. What was concealed? Where? In whose protection? Was it water? An unfathomable abyss?
There was neither death nor immortality then. There was not distinction of day or night. That alone breathed windless by its own power. Other than that there was not anything else.
Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning. All this was an indistinguishable sea. That which becomes, that which was enveloped by the void, that alone was born through the power of heat.
Upon that desire arose in the beginning. This was the first discharge of thought. Sages discovered this link of the existent to the nonexistent, having searched in the heart with wisdom.
Their line [of vision] was extended across; what was below, what was above? There were impregnators, there were powers: inherent power below, impulses above.
Who knows truly? Who here will declare whence it arose, whence this creation? The gods are subsequent to the creation of this. Who, then, knows whence it has come into being?
Whence this creation has come into being; whether it was made or not; he in the highest heaven is its surveyor. Surely he knows, or perhaps he knows not.
This is not exact but near about translation that you can get to the sanskrit verse about creation
ProudKaffir said : [1] Have I
ProudKaffir said :
[1] Have I read my scriptures or not? What’s the meaning of Sarva dharma smambhava? All religions are equal.The point that this statement is trying to make is all religions or paths lead to god ? truth?.
Good point…. The same as saying: all rivers lead to the big ocean. Truth for some but not to all. Religions like Christians and Muslim will never accept such assertion because they are made to believe their religion is the only path that will reach to salvation. But then again, do all rivers lead to the great ocean as we were made to believe? There are some rivers dried along the way even before it reaches the big ocean... so how do we reconcile with this?
Truth? People go to war in trying to justify their truth. The same manner you are doing trying to impose your truth on others who do not want to believe in it…. but does the truth exist in the first place or its just the by product of our illusion? What is the different of your action to that of the Muslim and Christians fundies?
J. Krishnamurthy says Truth is a pathless land. Man cannot come to it through any organization, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, not through any philosophic knowledge or psychological technique. He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind, through observation and not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection.
And I believe : truth is like the mystical shangri la. Many people have written about it, claim to have found it and make hell lot of money out of this but no real evidence can be found as to the exact location of this place. So I am not interested in trying to portrayed my form of truth. Its something personal to me. My truth is that I exist… and I am here… and this is what I have become….. what can I do now to make this remaining journey of mine peaceful, joyful and meaningful. That is my truth!
[2]I believe people who kill in the name of religion ( christians and scumbag moslems) can not understand this.I said this statement that was taught to me was inapplicable universally because religions like christianity and islam promote killing of the others never preach peace and coexistence.
I like to share a story to you : I have known this lady for some time.. came to my attention several months ago. A sad case of domestic abuse and she is herself admitted to me that she is abusing her children. The abuse is so bad that I can see the physical marks. She promised me that she will try to stop all the physical abuse while undergoing counseling. I followed up with her children and they told me the same : their mother have stop beating them. And so I thought so…. Until one day she wanted to follow me shopping. I went to her house…. Her elder son was sitting reading a book… as she about to leave the house, she wanted to give her elder son an instruction… what she did is that she knocked his head several time with her knuckles … then she walked out. I was shock when I saw her action. This how our conversation goes thereafter:
“why did you that?” I ask her
“what did I do?”
“that… that… why did you knock your son’s head?”
“its just a gentle knock…”
“no… it’s a hard knock as far as I can see…. Firstly does he deserve such action?.. did he do anything wrong for you to knock his head?”
She looked at me blankly….
Another occasion she lament to me of how she feel about her children: “they like to embarrass me in front of the people particularly strangers... and in public”
I asked her:”but aren’t you not doing the same to them…?” When strangers come to you… instead of saying good things about your children as we expect parents especially mother would do, you say all the negative things right in front of your children. So tell me how do you think your children feel about this?”
She went silence…
Why I am telling you this story…because I want you to see and to point to you that yes you are right proudkaffir, these people will never understand... and it’s because of the environment they are in, they can never see. You cannot try to stop violent through violent, stop fire with fire. That is what I am trying to tell you. Will you ever understand this? Like the young lady I met from the children home, I can hold her hand and told her "walk with me... right now... we both together" but I can't drag her forcefully. She must make the effort to walk on her own. It must come from within... this desire to be free.
What you are doing is trying to force these muslims to accept your assertion... through your foul language and mouth. You think this is the right way... maybe that is how you are brought up I believe and how your belief and your religion has taught you, but not as far as I am concern. I have a Hindu Guru too.. but that is not how he taught me. His message is always : have patience with them... be gentle with them.And to accept them as they are.... only when the time is right, when they are ready, they will come out from it.
You said read the Bh. Gita....Yes I do read the Bh. Gita, including the Devi Bhagavat Gita, the Guru Gita, the Siva Sutra, the Lalitopaakhyana, Lalitha Rahasya and several others. But these are just books... meant for us to read, to understand and learn... becoming a better person. Knowledge cannot turn into wisdom for wisdom is a gem only manifest for those who knows how to use them wisely.
And you said this to marie in your latest [no45] message “I also am just wondering how to deal with moslems who are evil followers of the rapist pedophile mohammad? I am not an expert in understanding the criminals and so I refuse to deal with them.”
You actions speaks by itself. You have no idea and you DO NOT Know how to handle such people. I do and I am right now. You cannot try to break the cycle of violent through violent, try to put fire with fire. I am sure you are matured and intelligent enough to understand this.
Proud Kaffir : said further
Proud Kaffir : said further
[3] Unlike many others which preach nonviolence and peace.
I see that you like to say this statement : my belief is such and such… my religion did not teach me as such and such etcc… then perhaps you know about Bhakti Movement.
For the benefit of our friends here who might not know, The Bhakti Movement is one of the most powerful characteristics of the medieval age in India. The Bhakti Movement, which began in the 6th/7th Centuries in the south and gradually spread throughout the country. It lasted till the 16th/17th Centuries. The Bhakti Movement in India was, by and large, marked by the rejection of the existing ritual hierarchy and Brahmanical superiority; the use of the vernacular in preference to Sanskrit, the language of the elite; and the emergence of low caste 'non-literate' persons like Ramanunj Dasar, Pillai Uranga Villi Dasar and Kanaka Dasar in the South and Kabir and Dadu in the North as great spiritual leaders1.
What else happen during the bhakti movement?
Women reformers especially those connected with Bhakti Movement deeply affected the social patterns, widening the mental horizon of people and establishing greater tolerance and inter-communal harmony. Indian society being largely patriarchal, the position of women has for long been regarded as inferior. Significantly, the Bhakti Movement saw the emergence of women saints on an unprecedented scale. The spiritual path helped a woman to breakout of stereotypes, the chains of tradition, orthodoxy and convention which sought to control her sexuality.
So in this sense your so call religion Hinduism is not that fantastic as it seems originally. What has happen to Hinduism now, have undergone changes and transformation through all these various movement.
If you look again, the same trend is happening now within the muslim society… something is happening…. You are seeing a trend … the rise of the apostate is a social phenomenon becoming a topic of study for social anthropologist especially in the muslim community. Apostate are more daring and vocal, like us.
If you read the news : Muslim Women Demand an End to Oppressive Family Laws
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1879864,00.html
These are the kind of changes we should support, because eventually like Hinduism which is one of the oldest paganistic religion, Islam will have to change if they still want to survive. If they say cannot be change then its bullshit… because they have change many times to keep themselves “alive”
[4] When I say truth hurts, what I meant to say was the truth is this ” Islam is stupid and violent” and as soon as you realised this truth and were compelled not to follow as it was lie” you left islam.But you had a whole lot people who you like and who are still stuck to this idiotic islam.When an outsider points out this simple fact, of course it hurts. It hurts because you are unable to convince the others close and dear to you about this idiotic and violent islam.
No you are wrong. Yes! I do have a whole lot of people I still like and I respect their decision. I may have move on but I do not go around trying to convince them that I am right and they are wrong. At no time I did try to convince my relatives, sisters or brothers that they should leave… I go by my actions as action speak louder than words. When I was ostracized by my own working muslim colleague, I did not do the same for them. I was always there for them during the good and bad times. My actions itself speak for itself that I have nothing against them… while they have a whole lot of hatred and resentment against me. I was with my father all the time till the time he died… while my born again muslim brother screaming on top of his voice telling my dying father : you are not my father anymore or my father is dead just because they have quarrel over a property. But I never at any time I forsaken them. Even my pious muslim nursing officer told me later on : Nurul your religious orientation is your business I will not interfere but as a team player I am thank ful for your support and commitment. You see the different here!