Mubahila: The Final Chapter

Ali Sina wrote:
"I told you that should I die within 90 days, it does not prove that I died because of your curses, because people die with no notice."
----
Nice point, more over even if Mr. Sina had died in the stipulated period it would not have proved that Islam is correct, for a simple fact that there are mathematical errors in the koran on the subject of Inheritance. If allah does not know how to count, what can be the caliber of his messenger ?

AMIM (JAH), the Mubahilla was started by that Muslim Loser wishing Ali death because he could not refuse his claims against Islam. Can you? Can you deny that Muhammad was a pedophile when Aisha herself says Muhammad was in fect a pedpophile (she says he married her when she was six, and slept with her when she was 8 years and nine months (our years. They went by lunar years). When will you wake up AMIM?

Ali Ji, thank you for the update. That person is still alive. If he was dead, no one would open your emails to him, and then you'll get an email message after a while saying something about the recipient not opening that email...etc. The guy is just ignoring your email. He probably still practices Islam, and already "rationalized" why Allah is still allowing you to live!! Peace

HI #2. JAH; If according to you --

""The so-called “Mubahila” is NOT to prove whether Islam is true or false! It’s a method to detect whether a person liar or not. The Qur’an doesn’t even say that the person will die if s/he is really a liar.""

Being a good Muslim Pig: You should tell us " What your Qu'rand says " about Mubahila and what is the Qu'randic way to detect lie when some Charlatan (according to you some one like Ali Sina) lies????

I can tell you Ali Sina is a liar as his ID is alive and kicking Islamic ass till now. Despite the fact that Ali Sina is getting cursed by millions of Muslim pigs like you ever day. Now don't hold my Halal logic against me. After all Logic is Haram according to Pedo. Mo. your pedo. prophet. Ha Ha Ha Ha

I used to hear something sort of this tradition refered often to muslims in my country. In my mother language it is called "albadr" (I'm not sure of the spelling because I've never seen the word written anywhere. It is only through hearing). They used to say if you commit anything wrong and you are brought to a mullah proffesional at reading albadr (certain suras in the quran) you'll instantly die. Although it was hard to comprehend at first but when I started visiting traditionally muslim communities in my country, I got an idea what it may be, if it is real. To me this is nothing different to voodoo. Muslims are the most supersititious people on earth. Every little detail of their culture is superstitious. I used to take notice at a typical mullah- ugly guy with ugly voice, a kaffiya on his head, shaved moustache, a spot on his face, an ugly untrimmed goaty-beard, black clerical garb and tasbih on his hand. Their lives is almost as mysterious as the lives of witchdoctors. They all claim they can heal and kill so what is the difference between voodoo and mubahila?

The stupidity of moslems keeps escalating as days go by. I set a very low bench mark for the moslems and give them a very very low level task.Even that I am discovering is too much to ask for from moslems.
I reckon allah mera low day has less intelligence than my low day has. I gave a simple test to allah.Since allah mera low day and sab ka low day has knowledge about past present and future, he can shut down this site by tomorrow.As most people here abuse, curse and spew unmentionable words against the pimp allah mera low day and the rapist rasool maha low day mohammad, Allah can stop this site, if he ever existed. The truth is allah is mera low day and he is under my control! He can not venture out with out my permission! Some times he ventures or tries when I am watching a wet rain dance! I have to tell him off now.Only moslems are unaware of this simple fact that allah is sabka low day. Every one's low day is allah.

I have another mubahila.If allah is truely existing then in a day the few cretins who foul up the message board should cease to post in the name of allah.AMIM,JAH , Faithone etc.They should cease posting here on this message board and should not come back at all if allah is true.If they come back, allah is false? Ohh my god what am saying? mera low day is live and kicking.Neither its false( penile prosthesis) nor is it asleep! it is saying I amm allah.Look down here but dont look down upon me!

Similarly happened in Faithfreedom Indonesia Forum. A hateful muslim said Allah will make a kafir die within 2 weeks. Upto now that kafir guy is still alive and posts actively.

Guys, let us not be so naive into thinking that islam is a merely manmade cult. A manmade thing cannot survive entire 14 centuries. Islam is purely beyond psychological manipulation of people by muhammad. Muhammad was simply an illiterate man who could not have developed a such strategic quran by himself. No matter how asinine or absurd the quran is there is a prime objective the quran was intended at. Salim is right that if what is driving islam is a cult mentality why didn't it die when muhammad was dead?

Take an example of the events after 9/11. Muslims attacked US but still islam receives empathy by americans and americans still convert into islam. Not only the criminals are converting but also politicians, journalists and well read individuals are also converting. A wahhabi cult which created Osama bin Laden and is an official cult of Saudi Arabia, yet is a country so dear to US government and of which its King was bowed unto by the potus. Now take a grasp at the talibans and alqaeda, the elite soldiers of allah. These soldiers know nothing about classical desert army boots, helmets, bullet proofs and modern combat uniforms. Their tanks are motorcycles and bicycles. Can you imagine this description of soldiers resisting the coalition of thirty strongest armies in the whole world? The reality is they are not only resisting, they are winning! And you tell me islam is merely a manmade ideology.

People need to trust there is a spiritual world. Islam is merely driven by a Devil. And Osama bin Laden is demon incarnate. Every muslim is a spiritual incarnate of little dark forces we cannot see or touch. And if you all believe islam can be defeated by enilghtenment and education, I'm not part of that thesis.

Desert thug Mohammad`s terror-manual Koran and Koranic Allah are all farce as forcefully proven at FFI. So, the religious beliefs of the Muslim are completely irrelevant. The first and greatest lie, that Islam is not political tool of arab domination, but a religion, inevitably leads to further lies. Thankfully, the people of the world are increasingly recognizing that the Muslim has crept in like a parasite into all the peoples of the earth, and that it is attempting to corrupt the original cultures of the peoples in order to destroy them both culturally and as states, and thereby rule over them as enjoined by Koran. More awareness is needed on this devil`s work. Where Taliban rule today in Pakistan was the place where the first University of the world came into being, and which gave rise to Gandhar school of art nearby that created Bamiyam Buddhas. Today, these places are barbaric Islamic wastelands inhabited by the muslim, all due to influence of Islam.
The force of materialistic religious laws of Koran that focus on life this side of the grave holds the artificial Islamic riff raff together through Mullahs. It promises the Muslim lordship over all other peoples and nations. In the afterlife, of course there is promise of eternal virgins. This results in a parasitic criminal element called muslim, who sucks the blood of host till it is dried up. Consequently, it leads to a society like Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan.
Shabir Bhatti is a hindu or sikh convert to Islam, clearly indicated by his second name. Shame on him that instead of figuring out how to quit Islam and get connected to his roots, he is seen leading rootless existence doing nonsense devilish deeds like mubahila.

@2. JAH would say that Mubahila was in koran and true if anything had happened to ALI SINA.
Thats the muslim way of debating.

JAH you are correct because terror manual are always cryptic.

To rephrase the my statement where I wrote "And if you all believe islam can be defeated by enilghtenment and education, I’m not part of that thesis.", I wanted to say "And if you all believe islam can "only" be defeated by enilghtenment and education, I’m not part of that thesis.

I believe secular education only is not enough. People need also be taught a religious studies that there is God and there is Devil. All attributes of a real God need be laid bare and also those of Devil. Allah fits desription of Devil. Jesus said these words: The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. These are all attributes of allah, to steal infidel resouces, to kill people who believe differently and to destroy other people worshiping places once muslims are in majority and sharia law is under control.

Mubahila, Jinn possession, curses from gods are all works of religious beliefs, a truly sane person will not put a challenge Mubahila style because he/she needed to confirm the actual divine nature of his/her holy book before arrogantly throwing a challenge and wishing people's death.

Actually that is what religious beliefs do to human brains, a schizophrenic person will believe the stupidity of demon possession because he/she heard about demons, so whatever his/her brain tells him becomes the work of the demon (confirmation bias) the prevailing religions all thought common mental disorders are from Jinns or demons, any psychiatrist will confirm schzophrenia in anybody hearing internal voices, believing that someone else is using him/her to talk, someone is out to get them and many more more somatic delusions and halucinations.

This guy with the Mubahila is a religious nutjob, the only way to sanitize the religious is through careful surgery for the extraction of the disinformation he/she acquired right from his/her impressionable age, the Muslim could always delude themselves into thinking that it is god's will the Mubahila did not work on Ali just like the way most other religious people will say for failed prayers, excorcisms and rukiya (sp) but wait, sometimes placebo effects do work after some Mullah or priest attended to a manic depressed, bipolar or shizophrenics, but that is about it, no heavenly curses.

Hey Ali, the religious people do not care who dies or who goes to heaven, that little syrian Muslim girl and her older brother goes to hell as far as the Vatican granny is concerned, the young and old Christian couples down the street are fuel for the fire said the Mulim, the Jew is another story,take care and sorry for the rant.

BD (who is certain that emotion not reason is given the higher priority in the religious territories)

Hi ". JAH ";

Tell us more about Islamic Voodoo and Mubahila, I am sure you can and your mentor Zakir Naik can get rid of the apostate called Ali Sina within no time.Just use the Voodoo called Mubahila.

Islamic Voodoo Islamic Mubahila. and Pedo. Mo . What a great combination.

Hi JAH the AMIM or should I say like someone on this forum said " Jerk off Zakir Naik ka nauwa tatta. ( for the FFI people TATTA means testicles )

Hey the moslems had already invented the lie detector! 1400 years ago the child molester and rapist maha low day mohammad had an inkling that people do lie! he was lying and so he knew his foot soldiers will lie.He said curse in the name of pimp mera low da allah and if the curses stick that guy is lying! how easy.
You can educate the moslems and give them what you want.These people understand only violence.kick their butts in simple

The language of butt kicking is surely going to be understood by the Muslims, one wonders why these crackpots are being appeased the world over, real education needs to be learned, the Muslims children needs to learn at early age the importance of logic so that they can recognize fairy tales no matter how many threats are there as a control mechanism, they need to learn how to wonder and be amazed at the natural world (both the explained and unexplained parts of nature) so that they don't jump from "hey! the world works in a complex way" to "my version of god did it"

Very intersting the comments posted by anti-jihad the previous day. It details the takeover of mohamedanism in details, as happened in Lebanon. Muslims should be sent to gas chambers, that´s the only final solution for them. And beware! Due to halal food, even their bones are najis toxic, as they have dioxis. Do not burn them or bury on the ground, treat them like any typical toxic waste.

Do not get close to muslims, let alone touch them, as they are NAJIS, impure, and transmit terrible diseases like cancer. Sanitize your region by building gas chambers to them.

Do not incur in Muuuublahblahheella, as it is a blabling of a an old paedophile impotent drag queen(it was said in his hadiths he was fond of wearing his child-bride clothes) guy, Mumm-Ra-MAD, or any superstitious practices like Jinn possesion, as the messenger of Piss suffered from majnoon-ness(Jinn possesion)

To #2

So why didn´t you tell Mr. Shabat Fhatty about it.You haven´t instructed him correctly, you naughty mule muuuhlah!

Islamophobic.

You could be right, Mo could have been Jinn possessed as the supersititious call it or shizophrenic as it is known today, hallucination is among the symptoms, didn't Mo hallucinate when he said that some men cracked open his chest and removed something in there? no wonder his contemporaries said he was possessed, Mo is such a freakish unstable character, to worsen everything, the man turned into a narcissist with much power to decide who should or shouldn't be killed, no wonder we have the killing cult of Islam.

Thank you Mr Sina,
What a great laugh!
I wish you a long long life!
btw what is the source(s) for this concept of Mubahila?
The Muslim god is all for death and killing, even to prove a point.

BD (who is certain that emotion not reason is given the higher priority in the religious territories)

Agree.

Kinana,

Mr. Sina included sources on Mubahila in the discussion with Mr. Bhatti almost one year ago:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/mubahila.htm

What is this ? Its hard enough to believe in existence of a god. To believe that imaginary god will actually kill a person if they curse him for 3 months is crossing all the limits. This is laughable at best.

peace_lover wrote:

What is this ? Its hard enough to believe in existence of a god. To believe that imaginary god will actually kill a person if they curse him for 3 months is crossing all the limits. This is laughable at best.

If a mere human can control God like that, then God is weaker then a mere human and if he is weaker then a mere human, then he is not the creator and therefore there is no God.

Finally I was able to see the Messenger of Piss personally, and I've got to admit it, there's a good reason for him not to be fond of being represented, as he's ugly as hell!

By applying ancient technics such as Muuublablaheella and majnooness, apart from killing any critical poet in handy, as the messenger has done in his previous life on this very flat earth that we now inhabit, I was able to devise him, the most exalted man, the sinnles man, the man every muslim takes for life example, from his appearance to his deeds such as butt-cleaning and I share with you all his appearance by clicking on this link below:

http://www.google.com.br/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mummra20000.50megs.com...

Warning: It's not a sight to the weak at heart!

The other day the president of US of A clearly announced his islamic butt .He says I repeat America is not at war with islam! Meaning we are not going to kick your butt in because you are a heinous moslems. True indeed.But its not that US is at war with Islam.It's Islam which is at war with US of A and kicking your butts.Want to get kicked more? That's your prerogative. The most powerful country has now declared it's intentions of submitting to this evil.I would say Inshallah islam will rule!

Islam is laughable at best.At worst its the evil incarnate.Run man run away from this evil.The evil thoughts and actions of maha low day mohammad, the pimp allah sabka low day and the scum bag jihadi moslems are now clear to one and all.Its time for direct action. Remember the direct action day of killin spree perpetrated by the scum of earth moslems in India? may be sooner that's exactly what will happen to moslem scum bags.Not that I want it, but see no way around.
Its not possible for moslems to think rationally.They have very very low intelligence

Proudkafir wrote:

The other day the president of US of A clearly announced his islamic butt .He says I repeat America is not at war with islam! Meaning we are not going to kick your butt in because you are a heinous moslems. True indeed.But its not that US is at war with Islam.It’s Islam which is at war with US of A and kicking your butts.Want to get kicked more? That’s your prerogative. The most powerful country has now declared it’s intentions of submitting to this evil.I would say Inshallah islam will rule!

Obama thinks that by having good relations with the Islamic world it would bring world peace and understanding between the Muslims and the kafirs. What a moron.

#29: Hi Marie I know you are from the USA, so I was just wondering whether even Americans or not are getting sick of the Islamic problem in your country. The other day, I read about the first pro-Al Jazeera newspaper being published in the USA and how one person said Americans are getting more and more sick and tired of the Muslims, you all know how to use firearms and you won't be afraid to use it against the Muslims. is this true?

Is this guy fhatty ( torn back side) alive? I wonder if he joined the jihadi brigade and blew himself up.In anticipation of the 72 houries and 28 boys and an eternally stiff dik in heaven.This is the level of intelligence of the moslems who can use the internet etc! Imagine an average bozzo moslem on the street. How stupid moslems can get.Only another moslems wil be able to beat him in stupidity.
There is a saying in arabic.If all the arabs spit together at israel, israel will be drowned.To that, I said true, but arabs must build up the courage as they are shit scared of israel and so have a dried mouth! No question of spitting.
I was almost beheaded but luckily escaped as I added the palestanian arabs and not sodi arabs, Sodis and Kuwaitis hate ( any thing new here?) palestanians, as the scums sided with saddam in the iraq war.Talk of strategic alliance?

hi i need ProudChristian
can u plz help me coz i need u and some one said me tht u r the best person for me...
can u plz gimme ur email address so i cant write u in detail
i'll b very thankful to you

A.J.-

I know you addressed your question to Marie and I hope I'm not stepping out of turn by answering you as well....but I'm an American and yes, I'm sick and tired of Muslims coming in here trying to take over. It would be different if they could act like civilized human beings as Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, etc. do, but they can't. They expect special treatment above all others while they give us absolutely no respect when we visit and live in their countries...unless of course you're going as a tourist and then in that case....again, they are only after your money. I think I speak for many Americans.

I think Marie will give you a more in depth answer as she is very intelligentand seems to be caring....while I write from personal experience and emotion....still dealing with my own issues with the stupid evil cult. But that is my opinion/answer to your question...hope it helps at least a little.

AJ wrote:

#29: Hi Marie I know you are from the USA, so I was just wondering whether even Americans or not are getting sick of the Islamic problem in your country. The other day, I read about the first pro-Al Jazeera newspaper being published in the USA and how one person said Americans are getting more and more sick and tired of the Muslims, you all know how to use firearms and you won’t be afraid to use it against the Muslims. is this true?

Yes Americans are growing more tired of the Muslims, although you don't hear about in the mainstream media. CAIR has been reporting this as "Islamophobia is increasing in the U.S"

The alternative media in the U.S. ( radio and the internet ) has been criticizing Obama for his apology to the Turkish government and for his efforts to close down Gitmo.

Yes there are plenty of Americans in the U.S. who will not hesitate to use their firearms to protect themselves and their loved ones.

One question-

If these mubahilas did work back in Mohammed's time, could it be that someone or rather...Mohammed put someone up to to make it look like it worked....trickery...then claimed it was Allah? Isn't that how they worked and still work for that matter?

Wow, this really amazes me. Ali Sina said he doesn't want to debate Muslims who are not scholars,as it is a waste of time, but he finds time to respond to this kind of rubbish. Ali Sina, you and i were having a productive debate and you chose to end it before it began. I have sent you my counter rebuttals and you have not responded. You are starting to look like this guy you mock in your article. Is this guy a scholar Ali Sina? if not why are you wasting your time with this person by posting a response? Could it be that your ego was no battered by my counter rebuttal, which you refuse to publish, that you needed to belittle a Muslim to feel better again?

Ali Sina i have, and continue to call you out of the cave you hide in. When will you free yourself from your cowardice and stand for the accusations you have made? If you have the truth, there should be no problem with you publishing my counter rebuttals and answering them. instead you choose to publish a piece of rubbish like this! zFor those who don't know, i am Donald Morgan, the convert Ali Sina promised to have a debate with. You can read my debate in 7 parts hereand i am going to post my counter rebuttal to each of the 7 sections Ali Sina responded to. i want the readers to look and see the fraud, half truths and lies Ali Sina uses to boost his argument.

Ali Sina I put forth this challenge. You say i am an irritant to you; if you want me to leave,continue the debate and publish it all. if at the end you are declared the winner, you will never hear from me again, but if you are the loser, do what you promised, declare islam as being the truth. You can keep your supposed $50,000 and you can even continue to run this site, if you wish, but your declaration will be a thing of public record, for all to see.

I emplore all the readers here to ask Ali Sina why he is hiding from me. What does he have to hide? if he is truthful, why hide?

Donald Morgan alias Saadiq, you are foolish to think that you have won the debate. What we saw during the one-sided debate was Ali Sena was refuting your notions on Pedophile Muhammad. However, you never bothered to respond to any of his counter rebuttals. For example, when Ali Sena asked "why Gabriel couldn't save Muhammad from stones and convert them into snow balls instead", there was absolutely no response from you. The debate, that went took 7 episodes, concentrated mainly on NPD. However, during the deabte Ali Sena did in fact mention about Muhammad's other dirty habits like pedophilia, mass murdering, rape, and looting. You never bothered to reply to that.

I gave my honest opinion. If you go back to Chapter-1 of debate, I had even praised you for a good start. From then on, you failed miserably. You got to be an open-minded person to accept facts. It is time for you to rephrase your opinion on Muhammad.

to rationalist

How gullible are you. First, my original debate was sent to Ali in full. Ali Sina decided to break it up into parts, so he may respond to each point. There was no face to face debate here. Secondly, i have countered what Ali Sina has said and have sent it to him, yet he refuses to publish it here on the FFI site. I have sent my counter or response to what Ali Sina has said for part 1,2 and three. i am currently working on part four. So ask Ali Sina why he has not published it. What is contained in my counter rebuttal that has Sina so hesitant to publish it. i will tell you that in my first 3 counters, i have revealed many damaging things about what Ali Sina has said. I have exposed things like his lies and contradiction. if Ali Sina is truthful, he should have no problem in publishing my counter rebuttal. One sided is correct, Ali Sina has plastered a response, full of lies and then chose to end the debate becuase i am not a 'scholar'. He says this but then he takes the time to write a story about a muslim who prayed for Ali Sina's death in 90 days! Was the person he was responding to a scholar? No he wasn't but Ali Sina chooses to address this guy.

rationalist, if you are serious about finding the truth, i will be happy to send you the counter rebuttals i sent to Ali Sina. Read them and then judge.

Saadiq,

You are a good and intelligent man. I read your debate with Ali Sina. I think you did a good job. Still I don't understand that how can you believe that Gabriel volunteered to throw mountains on a city. How can you believe in God, angels and demons even in this age? Anyways, I will love to read your rebuttal against Sina if you don't mind. Thank you.

Well Saadiq, if that is your claim then there are hundreds of Islamic websites to publish your rebuttals. If Ali is refusing to publish your articles, then send your rebuttals to one of those islamic websites. We'll all see how good is your rebuttal.

You don't have to depend on Sena to publish your claims, righteo? All you have to do is to post the link of your publication on the discussion forum. People will judge the fate of Muhammad! :) smile.. My email id is dude3102ATrediffmailDOTcom

I second the opinion of Rationalist. Two months ago a lunatic called Abul Kasem had published a derogatory article on Hinduism on Islam-watch website. One of the educated Hindus gave such a wonderful rebuttal that Abul Kasem is now known by the name "Pants-down Kasem". In that rebuttal, the author showed that Abul Kasem doesn't even possess basic knowledge of Sanskrit. I am sure Kasem will never touch any topic on Hinduism in future. Abul Kasem was humiliated like anything. I am sure your position is similar to Kasem's.

Well Donald, what prevents you from publishing a rebuttal on a different website and make FFI readers know about it. If it is worth then people will accept you. Else, you will become the focal point of emberassment for next generation Muslims. Right now from what I have seen, I can assure that you have failed to respond to Ali Sena in all aspects. You are loser unless and until you provide a counter rebuttal. Best of luck!!

I don't know about anyone else, but to me, that was just weird!

Saadiq1977, in character you are a bit like Ali Sina. You are a convert into Islam and he is a convert out of it. You are both very passionate, willing to give great effort for your cause. You also want to debate with truth, logic, with the help of proper sources. And, like him, you considered the challenge of your fellow-muslim Shabir Bhatty rubbish, although that person claimed mubahila came from the Quran.

The answer of Ali Sina to this man Bhatty was logical and a crushing victory for Ali Sina and it was Bhatty who started it, who was taken seriously at his challenge. I think Ali Sina did not say that he would not debate ANY non-scholars, but only that he did not want to debate EVERY non-scholar who issued challenges. At least not endless. As other muslims would claim every possible victory for him a victory over rubbish, as you did! And remember, several Islamic scholars refused him to debate him at all. Does that make them cowards in a cave as well?

As Rationalist and Wagamama said, you can publish your rebuttals on an Islamic website and give us the link. And Ali Sina DID allow you to give the response you gave here, didn't he? That you dare to accuse Ali Sina of cowardice seems preposterous to me, as he, as an apostate, is arguing in the face of death threats. Whereas you know that nobody intends to hurt a hair on your head. And if you hold Ali Sina up to such a high standard of truth-telling, logic and sources, then I hope you will do the same with your fellow muslims and admit it when they fall short of that standard.

Donald is not a schoalr and by defeating him I gain nothing. So I gave him the chance to bring along a scholar or send our debate to an Islamic site at least as popular as faithfreedom.org and ask them to publish it. Only then I will continue debating with him. If no Muslim scholar and no Islamic site want to throw their weight behind Donald why should I take him seriously. He can publish his rebuttal in the fourm. As far as I am concerned I am not going to waste my time on him. He has not read even the Sira. I told some stories from the Sira and he challenged me to show the source. It is obvious he has not read the sira of Muhammad. How can you have discussion with a person who knows so littel about the religion he wants to defend?

Thank you Mr. Sina. It was really funny. :)

All religions are poison for mankind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggwYT87YKwg

For the day of destruction of all religions and the beginning of the real religion called humanity. Amen!

Knowledge of Islam is for all mankind, not just for the believers. There are now many ex-muslims who know Islam inside out and speak out about it. Also there are Islamologists, who are very knowledgeable about Islam. One of them is Dutch Hans Janssen. I have read several of his books, it confirms much of what Ali Sina says. These people know Islam as well as Islamic Scholars and much better than the average muslim. Yet in speaking to Muslims I am told a much different picture, especially about the saintly character of Muhammad and about other meanings of Jihad. It is very confusing, as if their 2 or more different "Islams". At least when there are debates, with the quoting of sources, including the Quran + the Hadith, all watchers can see what is really said in these holy scriptures and judge better for themselves.

I also find it confusing that some Muslims are not acknowledging it when other Muslims use weak or wrong arguments, are not correcting each other publicly, as Westerners often do. That they often do not seem to seek the wisest council on Islam they can get.

And that some tell us that Islam is compatible with democracy, as Tariq Ramadan does, while many others are only railing against the wrongs of democratic states or parties but so little about the wrongs of Islamic dictatorships or organisations, often arguably so much worse! I see such double standards then! I also remember that many Christians were vehemently against apartheid in South Africa. which was carried out by fellow-Christians. I wish Muslims more to choose sides with democratic nations and organisations against Muslims who are after dictatorial rule and the oppression of women and who commit atrocities. It perplexes me (man) the most when women in effect so easily side with the oppressors of their fellow women.