Moderate Beheading
Submitted by Abul Kasem on Sat, 02/21/2009 - 06:15
Printer-friendly version
Send to friend
PDF versionBy Jamie Glazov/Abul Kasem
FrontPageMagazine.com | Thursday, February 19, 2009
Frontpage Interview’s guest today is Abul Kasem, an ex-Muslim who is the author of hundreds of articles and several books on Islam including, Women in Islam. He was a contributor to the book Leaving Islam – Apostates Speak Out as well as to Beyond Jihad: Critical Views From Inside Islam. His latest contribution is in Why We Left Islam published by WND Books.
FP: Abul Kasem, welcome to Frontpage Interview.
I’d like to talk to you today about the “moderate” Muslim who beheaded his wife in Buffalo. The liberal/Left, of course, isn’t too interested in this particular story and, as always, it's going out of its way to de-Islamize it.
But let me ask this, before the mainstream media succeeds in pushing the victim, Aasiya Z. Hassan, into historical invisibility – as it has done to so many victims of Islamic jihad and Islamic gender apartheid: When Muzzammil Hassan chopped his wife’s head off, was he doing something that he had learned to do from Islam?
Kasem: To my mind, this horrible slaughter is a case of honor killing. The killer, Muzammil Hassan, is certainly well-versed in Islamic theology and jurisprudence. He is the CEO of Bridges, the Islamic Television Station which he started to propagate the “true” image of Islam to the Western World. It is hard to believe that such an impeccably qualified person would not have been aware of what he was doing. Most likely, Muzammil Hasan had planned this all very well, and he did it according to Islamic fashion, i.e. slaughtering by beheading.
FP: Can you tell us about the legitimacy that Muslims find for honor killing in their religious theology?
Kasem: Well, you don’t need to go further than the Qur’an, which is the basis of honor killing in Islam. Let us read 4:15: YUSUFALI: If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
This verse clearly tells that a disgraced woman is condemned to a solitary confinement till death. The alternative is the judgement of Allah. The Qur’an is not clear what that judgement of Allah could be. There are various interpretations on this. Therefore, it is a fish market: anyone (man) may do to his woman whatever he wishes, including ending her life.
FP: So what is your reading of what happened in this case of beheading in Buffalo?
Kasem: According to Islam, if a woman disobeys her husband she is disgraced. Therefore, when Aasiya Zubair, the wife of Hassan, resorted to the Western justice system to seek protection from her menacing husband, she had certainly broken the Islamic tenet of complete surrender to the wishes of her husband. Thus, she had dishonoured her husband, his reputation and, most importantly, the Islamic code of conduct for an obedient wife. Therefore, it is not surprising that the killer had to end her life Islamically, to restore his pride, honor and religious conviction.
Let us read verse 4:34:
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
Please note that in verse 4:34 Allah permits a husband to punish his disobedient wife. It is worthy to observe that this verse says if the husband suspects or fears disobedience and rebellion; that the actual acts might not have taken place. This verse also says that the men are the protectors of women. Thus, Islamically, Aasiya was foolish enough to seek the protection of US law. It was a clear violation of Qur’anic injunction of verse 4:34, a challenge to Islam. And, as per the Islamic law, if anyone violates the Qur’anic command the only punishment is death by beheading. Thus, we may conclude that Hassan has acted in the manner that Qur’an commands him.
FP: So in Islam, a woman is nothing more than her husband’s property.
Kasem: Absolutely. There are a number of ahadith that say that a Muslim woman’s status to her husband is no more than a slave.
Here are a few examples:
A woman is a sexual property, the righteous woman is the best property…(Ibn Majah, 3.1855).
Sunaan Ibn Majah, Volume 3, Number 1855
‘Abdullah b. ‘Amr (Allah be pleased with him) is reported to have said that Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, “Verily, the world is a property and nothing of the property of the world is better than a righteous woman.
A husband is the owner of his wives’ chastity… (Ibn Majah, 3.2388).
Sunaan Ibn Majah, Volume 3, Number2388
‘Amr b. Shu’aib (Allah be pleased with him) reported his father to have said on his grandfather’s authority that Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said in a sermon he delivered, “It is not lawful for a woman (to make a donation) from her property but with the consent of her husband when he becomes the owner of her chastity (i.e. when he marries her).
Since in Islam, a woman is the property of her husband, it is imperative that the husband reserves the full right to dispose off his property in any manner he wishes.
That a woman is a servant (a sexual slave) to her husband is stipulated in Hedaya, the Hanafi Law Manual, the legal code for the Muslims of Hanafi sect. This is what is written in this Sharia Book:
Woman is a servant and the husband is the person served (Hedaya, p.47).
Case of marriage on a condition of service from the husband.— ……………it is not lawful that a woman should be in a situation to exact the service of her husband who is a freeman, as this would amount to a reversal of their appointed stations, for one of the requisites of marriage is, that the woman be as a servant, and the man as the person served; but if the service of a husband to wife were to constitute her dower, it would follow that the husband is the servant and the wife as the served: and this being a violation of the requisites of marriage, is therefore illegal; but it is otherwise with the service stipulated to be performed by another free person, with that person’s consent, as this offers no violence to the requisites of the contract; and so also in the case of service of a slave, because the service performed by a slave to his wife is, in fact, performed to his master, by whose consent it is that he undertakes it; and the same with the case of tending flocks, because this is a service of a permanent nature, and admitted to be performed for wives, and therefore, does not violate the requisites of marriage; for the service of the husband to his wife, as a dower, is prohibited only as it may be degrading to the former; but the tending of flocks is not a degrading office.
FP: What is our conclusion in terms of what the evidence points to?
Kasem: Though this murder is chilly, ghoulish, barbaric, and senseless, I would say that Hassan has acted in conformity with Islamic tenets. His wife was no more than a chattel to him. He simply got rid of this obnoxious object of his life. If he committed this honor killing in an Islamic country such as Iran, Jordan, Iraq…he would get very light sentence, perhaps a jail term for a few years.
Reference:
The Holy Qur’an. The internet version of three English translations can be read at: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/reference.html
Imam Abu Abdullah Muhammad b. Yazid ibn-i-Maza Al-Qazwani (with Arabic Text), Sunaan Ibn-i-Majah, Vol. III.
Translated in English by Muhammad Tufail Ansari. Kitab Bhavan, 1784 Kalan Mahal, Daraya Ganj, New Delhi-110002, India. 2nd Ed. 2003. ISBN: 81-7151-292-5 (Vol.III).
Hamilton, Charles. Hedaya. Translated in English in 1870 from the Persian version. Reprinted by Kitab Bhavan, 1784
Kalan Mahal, Daraya Ganj, New Delhi, 1994.
Now now, what do we have
Now now, what do we have here? exmoslems spewing out hatred ! The guy was peacefully beheading the wife and was making sure she will die a painless death.You fellows instead of praising the husband for rendering the service with a smile, are abusing him? How dare you all?
Let us see how this social worker lady will approach the pious moslem husband with kindness ,care and love. Can you please elaborate on this your way of dealing with this pious act as sanctioned by allah ( the pimp) and pedophile rapist Mohammad and faithfully carried out by a pious moslem?
I would think he would behead her as well if she approaches him.You do not show kindness to Rabid dogs. You do not affectionately pat a rabid dog or in islamic logic you do, do you? Let us see the protesting innocent fearfull faith heads? Oh come on they are innocents and are busy celebrating the death of kafirs. But but this was a lady moslimah. Ahh may be she brought dishonour by not covering her hair.Ahh there you see the islamic logic. by the way did you see the snap of that beautiful muslimah? She had her hair uncovered.How dare she. That too infront of the despicable kafirs. She deserved to be chopped.Pious act of this pious husband will guarantee 72 vaginas and 28 boys.there I feel better.Never abused moslems and am sure never bashed them either.Inshallah he goes to 72 houries.
The plight of muslims is same
The plight of muslims is same as that of parrots.
If you have seen how parrots are caught in the jungles you will understand. A rope is tied across two supports. The moment a parrot comes and sits on the rope, he immediately hangs upside down because the rope has turned due to his weight. The parrot feels that he is caught, now there is no way to get away. It is the parrot who is clutching the rope tightly, the rope is not holding him at all. But what the poor parrot feels also appears logical, ”The rope which has turned me upside down, it has caught me, it must be holding me!”
So the parrot stays hanging. He tries in all possible ways to straighten himself up so he can fly away, but he is unable to manage to do that because the rope is very light compared to the weight of the parrot – so no matter how much he tries, he always swings back to his upside-down position. Thus the more he tries, the more convinced he becomes that there simply is no way of release.
If the parrot could understand, it could undo its grip and fly away the same moment.
Even if it leaves the grip in its upside-down position it can fly away because the rope has not caught it. It thinks that perhaps flying has some unavoidable connection with standing right side up on two feet.
Same is the plight of poor muslims. They find themselves gripped with Islam. They could simply let go and free themselves. But alas, such a voluntary incarceration!
Dear sir could it be becaus e
Dear sir
could it be becaus e the moslems have slightly smaller brain than the parrot as a rule? Of course every rule has an exception, but I have my own doubts if this rule has any exception
Can anybody tell how is the
Can anybody tell how is the most miserable person in the world? He is Ali Sina.
Every Muslim should say ameen after this pray.
May Allah give him all the luxuries and fame which he wishing to get in this world. ( Ameeeen )
The only thing i want to say is that if Ali Sina is right besides accusations that Muhammad P.B.U.H. is not a true Prophet of Almighty Allah.( may Allah forgive him ) than why should they donot accept challenge of Almighty Allah, as Allah challenges to create three ayats like Quranic verses.
Why
Why not he prepare only three ayats?
There is a free option to him as well. He can Join up to 500 Ph.D. with him for this task to make only only only three ayats as Muhammad ( P.B.U.H. ) who was illetrate given to mankind.
The answer of Ali Sina will be no i cannot do so why becasue he is a liar.
Can anybody tell how is the
Can anybody tell how is the most miserable person in the world? He is Ali Sina.
Every Muslim should say ameen after this pray.
May Allah give him all the luxuries and fame which he wishing to get in this world. ( Ameeeen )
The only thing i want to say is that if Ali Sina is right besides accusations that Muhammad P.B.U.H. is not a true Prophet of Almighty Allah.( may Allah forgive me ) than why should they donot accept challenge of Almighty Allah, as Allah challenges to create three ayats like Quranic verses.
Why
Why not he prepare only three ayats?
He is very intelligent, scholar, and built very beautiful site.
Just three ayats Mr. Ali Sina, You can take as much time as you can and can take assistance from as many people as you can. but dear accept this challenge if you are a man if dont then agree with that you are a son of bitch.
There is a free option to him as well. He can Join up to 500 Ph.D. with him for this task to make only only only three ayats as Muhammad ( P.B.U.H. ) who was illetrate given to mankind.
The answer of Ali Sina will be no i cannot do so why becasue he is a liar.
Typical bird brained
Typical bird brained hallucinating and ranting pious cretin
Mudassir "Every Muslim
Mudassir
"Every Muslim should say ameen after this pray"
Please tell what does this signify? What does Ameen mean? Is it a word or a sound?
Let us focus on above, forget Ali Sina.
Proudkafir It is not the
Proudkafir
It is not the question of quantity. Even humans are endowed with 70 to 90 billion brain cells and on an average nobody utlilizes more than 1% during the entire lifetime.
The point here is that whatever little brain you tend to utilize, that also you surrender as a muslim and hang upside down, without realizing that you could free yourself instantly!
Hi guys,don't be one
Hi guys,don't be one sided.When i was in saudi arabia i knew quite a few saudis shit scared of their wives.They were the servant,not the wife.They were terrifed of their wives.Many of the arab women beat their husbands(i don't know what the koran says about this),with hold sex or ask for constant sex,tantrums,reckless shopping & spending,ect.
The arab women have manged islam in their own way.BUT WOMEN ARE SUPPRESSED & THE MEN PAY A HEAVY PRICE FOR IT.(for they have to mange the above mentioned hardships).
But the women in the Indian sub continent(all religions) are very much suppressed & face a lot of hardships.Why do u think the men from the sub continent do not marry saudi/arab women--1)these marriages are frowned upon & not encouraged.(islam is equal) 2)SUB CONTINENT MEN ARE SHIT SHIT SCARED OF THESE WOMEN.SO MUCH FOR THEIR MANLINESS!!!!(they need a lady from the sub continent to practice, to be e true muslim)
Guys, I do not even grasp
Guys, I do not even grasp what mohammad meant when he gave the challenge of skeptics to produce ayat and suras (whatever these mean) like the quran.
Please mudassir help me on that one, Hitler produced Mein Kampf more or less similar to Mohammad's quran, did he met the challenge?
Dear Mudassir, Please don't
Dear Mudassir,
Please don't waste time reading the koran.Kindly take time to improve your English,it could help you to earn a living.Take care.
1. proudkafir Says: Let us
1. proudkafir Says: Let us see how this social worker lady will approach the pious moslem husband with kindness ,care and love. Can you please elaborate on this your way of dealing with this pious act as sanctioned by allah ( the pimp) and pedophile rapist Mohammad and faithfully carried out by a pious moslem?
This social worker lady by the name of Nurul speaks..... dont you too have a name proud kaffir... is this how you teach your children...branding people . eh! What a nice parent you will be.
This is a typical case of a man who is mentally condition to believe as such...and part of his cultural upbringing. From where I am coming from, we do not have such thing. Traditionally malays are matriatical society... its the influence of the islamisation that try to break this... and is the weakness of the people who try to erase their culture.
I thought an intelligent man like yourself.. who claim to be a professional should have the brain to think as such logically! Or you dont.... your hate is so great that you forget totally how to think rationally.
6. proudkafir Says: Typical
6. proudkafir Says: Typical bird brained hallucinating and ranting pious cretin
Just like you too..... the usual ranting...... do you have anything new to add beside saying the same...
Hello Nurul, do you remember
Hello Nurul, do you remember what I once told you in an Email. I don't say that all of it was true but some part of it was true.
Hello Ibrahim... Yes you are
Hello Ibrahim... Yes you are right... too.. I can see it obvioulsy
No matter what we apostate do... we will always be accused....of having a Islamic Agenda... we will always be mistrust...
And you know what I think... I care not what these people think of me. I know who I am and what I am. I will continue to be here and post what ever that comes from my head... until the day the moderator of this group ban me.
Proud Kaffir are muslim hater... its not his fault. He is a victim of the environment he is brought up with .. the same with the muslim jihads... they can never understand and they will never see because they are too trap in their own world. Of course proud Kaffir cannot see it... because like the muslim jihadist.. they are blinded by their hatred... we should not get trap together with them or be like them.
We have create our own path... and we should follow that path we have choose....these people are like the other traveller we meet along the road... we cross path.. while they got stuck... we have move on. That is what we must to. So forgive them... for they really do not know.
I agree with you Nurul.
I agree with you Nurul. Actually you gave me a wonderful piece of advice back then. After all we did not apostatize to satisfy others or to be in someone good books. We did this out of our own commitment to the truth.
However Nurul, we humans are social beings and now that we have left islam we need to to be felt accepted amongst other people as equals. Saly some bigoted people think that Islam is genetic. I read the posts of PF, where he was saying pretty nasty things that somehow implied that Islaminess is hereditary. This is not true as in fact some converts go on to become more Islamic than the born Muslims. Sadly Ali Sina message has not been understood well and FFI has become a place where people take out the hatred already inside them.
Dear Nurulhuda Do not worry
Dear Nurulhuda
Do not worry about my upbringing , parental guidance etc too much.Suffice it to say I have never ever had the evil influence of evil islam at any part of my life during the formative stages of my life.I am really thankful to that GOD who decided that I should escape the evil of islam
.I do not like to address by name simply because I do not want to make this a personal attack /confrontation
Now coming back to the question, you still have not answered. how you are going to deal with these islamically brain damaged people with love and kindness? Please be specific.As I have already indicated, my bringing is not the issue here, but islamic evil is. My upbringing may look evil to your islamically trained brain. But that's not what this web site is about. Its about the pure unadultetrated evil that Islam is.Let us stick to the issue.No point in blaming me for islamic evil.I repeat islam is evil to the core and moselms who follow the pedophile prophet are nasty and evil.
I have already indicated That I have employed moslems in my concern and I have no intentions of firing them just because they are half hearted moslems.
Ahh the erasure of cultural ties? Islam primarily aims imposing this islamic values on the conquered so that the new recruit ( either by choice or force) to this evil cult becomes more moslem than the Arabs.The new recruits' place of worship is no longer in malayasia or India but is in mekkah.He will turn his back side towards his ancestral place to worship the pedophile mohammad.He will grow beard and shave off his mustache and wear that towel on his head and walk around.You may be an ex moslem, but I do still see the moslem traits in you.
Please do not sermonise me about my inetelligence.I have never abused you personally unlike you.I ignore this as I am aware what islam can do to the brain during the formative stages of life.Please go back and see where I have said any thing about your upbringing,culture, intelligence etc,I have been quite scathing about islamic evil,.pedophile prophet and the pimp allah. I do not have to do anything to discredit this evil islam.Day in and day out many of your ex cousins of the cult you once belonged to are doing their best to bring the islamic evil to the notice of even the most ignorant.
Please do not go on about cultural values etc of singapore etc.Singapore was infact discovered by a tamil king.I am sure you are aware of the history of singh puram. as a moslem you want to be subordinate to the brain dead arabs, feel free.
Oh by the way islamically brain enlightened fellows can be gleaned at the moslem comments posted earlier.
PK I would like to answer
PK
I would like to answer your question. I know that there are people who cannot be helped to come out of Islam. For such people there is only one option, the option of death. I am a realist, I know that not all Muslims can be helped out of Islam and I specifically mean the brain damaged Muslims who have gone ahead to become Jihadis.
These people cannot be approached with love and kindness. However this is not the case with all Muslims. There are many others who can be shown the truth with love and compassion.
You went on to cuss Nurul, about her Islamic upbringing. Obviously your heart is full of hate for all Muslims and ex-Muslims, judging by the kind of language you use to refer to them
This way you can't even help a single Muslim out of Islam. Hatred begets hatred and you cannot beat a Muslim in hating. If you are a Hindu you will never be able to match the hatred of a Muslim nor the level of voilece a Muslim is capable of. The only way you can defeat Islam is by showing love and compassion to those few who can understand it.
By saying that Islamic upbringing makes people brain dead zombies is not true. If that were true people like Ali Sina, Ibn Warrak, Khalil Gabriel, me Nurul MA Khan and several others would not have been able to see the truth.
That is all I wanted to tell you. If you hate you will get hate in return, but if you love there is a chance that you might get love in return.
I know its not easy to love people who want to kill you, but try it out sometime, it will make you feel good about yourself. Because in the end hatred will get neither of us anywhere.
17. proudkafir Says:[1]
17. proudkafir Says:[1] Singapore was infact discovered by a tamil king.I am sure you are aware of the history of singh puram. as a moslem you want to be subordinate to the brain dead arabs, feel free.
Ah! you do know about my beloved country singapore history.. I am honoured. Thank you...Singaporean will be very proud of me...
You see you are wrong.....I am the many malays who are questioning about this Islamisation process becasue we are still proud of our hindu and chinese cultural heritage. There is a movement now to reject thse Islamisation process and retain our own culture...
[2] Now coming back to the question, you still have not answered. how you are going to deal with these islamically brain damaged people with love and kindness? Please be specific
But I did have answered you earlier... have you not read it.. I give you the example of the lady with abuse background and her children. You can't get the mroal of the story eh... hmmm...my way of teaching is to allow the student to discover themselve... only then the process of learning can be enjoyable and fun..so i do not want to spoilt your fun.
[3] But that’s not what this web site is about. Its about the pure unadultetrated evil that Islam ..
yes I am aware of it... Please read the forum statement above : We aim to promote human rights and democracy among Muslims. We oppose Islam, not Muslims. We are against hate, not faith.
As Ali Sina himself said... Islam is like a disease...the muslim who are infected with this disease. So we are not here to kill the muslim but find a way of how to contain or eradice the disease. What you are seeing is the symptoms of the disease..all these terrorist and the bombers are just the symptoms.. the ancient traditional way of treating the disease like the Ayurvedac is to go to the root cause of the problem. Once you treat the root cause... the symptoms will die of natural death. Can you visualise this picture here.......I allow you the freedom to visuallise at your own time and you will find the answer.
16. ibrahim Says:However
16. ibrahim Says:However Nurul, we humans are social beings and now that we have left islam we need to to be felt accepted amongst other people as equals. Saly some bigoted people think that Islam is genetic. I read the posts of PF, where he was saying pretty nasty things that somehow implied that Islaminess is hereditary. This is not true as in fact some converts go on to become more Islamic than the born Muslims. Sadly Ali Sina message has not been understood well and FFI has become a place where people take out the hatred already inside them.
You see Ibrahim the problem is them not you or me. We know who we are ... why we are what we are, but these people are not. Its not that they do not.. but they refuse to understand... so what can we do about it...
My way.. stop trying to please other people.. please yourself first. Why you care what others think... all this about wanting to be accepted socially.. is just an attachment. Its not what others think about you matters but what you think of others is very important. PK is PK he is entitled to his own opinon... to me is just another person I met along the road... I can just look at him and walk away without having any feeling or thoughts about him. What there is to think about him...
Hi guys cool it.Please,the
Hi guys cool it.Please,the above discussion is not conducive to the health of FFI.You guys are frightening the people who want to apostate.PLEASE.
Hi guys to lighten things up
Hi guys to lighten things up i will tell a joke about satyam & its owner ramalinga raju.
"Ramalinga raju by telling the truth(satyam) about his company,kept Ram to himself & give Linga(penis) to his investors.
Linga is also shivji"s symbol(long story).Yes i visit shiva temple.
What my point is that you should be able to enjoy a joke about your religion. Religion is not a serious business,it is just a faith of a person who could believe in anything under the sun including the sun.take care guys.
Hey Ibrahim and Nurulhuda,
Hey Ibrahim and Nurulhuda, amongst people who are anti-Islam, I have greater respect for somebody who was a Muslim and managed to come out of it, than I have for somebody who was never a Muslim. Because the ex-Muslim has had to think for himself and break free of the programming against tremendous odds.
But yes it is true that humans are social animals and we all need a support network. Ex-Muslims may not be easily accepted into Hindu society because of the deep rooted antagonism against Islam. So ex-Muslims should support each other. But you also get the support of those non-Muslims who understand what you have been through. You may also get a warm welcome from organizations like the VHP (Vishwa Hindu Parishad).
krishna786, muslims often say
krishna786, muslims often say " there is no humor in islam, islam is a serious business not to mess up with" these people probably will never understand you. But hey, I take my faith very seriously but I sometimes do allow room for jokes. For instance recently I had my conversation with my christian friends discussing about how Jesus felt about women. Some said he had no sexual feelings some says he had, you know it was really funny!
FROM FRYING PAN TO FIRE.GREAT
FROM FRYING PAN TO FIRE.GREAT SOLUTION.
Hi guys,i am a hindu
Hi guys,i am a hindu myself.forgive me if i have hurt anyone's feelings with my joke.take care.
All right.The blue label is
All right.The blue label is working and now I can think clearly and rationally. My replies would be in general and no need to bring my upbringing etc as I do not believe in confrontation with unreasonable and illogical people. There are many here on this site.Some moslem and christians feel that I am illogical too as I do not accept the flat earth theory or that sun goes round the earth etc crap..Be that as it may.
Just like you all I am also against islamic evil and am not against moslems or ex moslems.I have told you repeatedly that I have come across very decent and nice people who happen to be moslems. I have told you repeatedly that I have moslem employees working for me.Inspite of that you keep peddling your theory that I hate moslems, I have nothing more to say.Its just your perception and I can not change that.It really does not matter to me nor do I care as to what you perceive about me or what you feel.about me.
Now the plan suggested by Ibrahim "I would like to answer your question. I know that there are people who cannot be helped to come out of Islam. For such people there is only one option, the option of death. I am a realist, I know that not all Muslims can be helped out of Islam and I specifically mean the brain damaged Muslims who have gone ahead to become Jihadis.
These people cannot be approached with love and kindness" is not even in my plan! So you see, I do not hate moslems sufficient enough!
Nurulhuda says they are trying to reclaim their indian and chinese culture! Good but how do you proceed with the noose of islam around your neck?
Islam is an all encompassing brutal system that enslaves the followers to respect the arabs, pedophile rapist,pimp allah and mekkah. There is no way you can have chinese and indian culture and still remain moslem.You are either a moslem or you are not.No via media.
Of course people in Islam who leave islam need a lot more bravery but not necessarily a lot of intelligence to leave this evil cult.
Dear Ibrahim you wrote " You went on to cuss Nurul, about her Islamic upbringing." Kindly follwo the discussion carefully and the nurulhuda made statements about my upbringing etc.I did not respond initially and when she kept repeating the same accusation, do I have an option? Now coming to my upbringing let me put it this way.there is absolutely nothing wrong in my upbringing that says respect saraswathi the godess of Knowledge.I have never remained ignorant.There are many of my closest relatives in best of the universities in the world. I was repeatedly instructed to get the best from the best of the places of learning and that I am glad to say have done so. I do not want to give more info here as that would jeopardise quite a few things.
Daer Ibrahim your take" If you are a Hindu you will never be able to match the hatred of a Muslim nor the level of voilece a Muslim is capable of. The only way you can defeat Islam is by showing love and compassion to those few who can understand it." I have no discord here.It's foolish to throw stones on pile of crap as crap splatters! Not exact translation but that will do.I agree with you.I am unable to love people with a dagger/ sword in hand. I would not like to meet tham at all unless I have an AK47! Even then I would not like to meet them as my thinking capacity does not allow me to kill , let alone indiscriminately even in just circumstances. That's enough for today! I do not hate moslems but i find it difficult to like the islamic ideology that teaches, encourages and cajoles people to sleep with children.
Ex-muslims, I think you guys
Ex-muslims,
I think you guys should ignore PK until he becomes more civilized. In my opnion, he is still in his early teens(emotionally and intellectually) and therefore his repulsive language which can easily put off any potential muslims who might be having doubts about Islam. He is doing more damage to our cause than the muslims themselves.
Earlier also, i have interfered so that we did not have to digress from the main issue of getting more and more people to move away from islam.
We do not have the same resources that islamic organisations have to propogate our message and therefore it becomes very important to use our resources as efficiently as possible.
I hope we can give up our egos and uncivilized behaviour in the interests of the greater cause...
cheers
Really this PK ( pagal kafir
Really this PK ( pagal kafir ) is doing a great damage than good, so i request people over here to take him as a scrap and ignore him.
Proudkafir wrote: "Now the
Proudkafir wrote:
"Now the plan suggested by Ibrahim “I would like to answer your question. I know that there are people who cannot be helped to come out of Islam. For such people there is only one option, the option of death. I am a realist, I know that not all Muslims can be helped out of Islam and I specifically mean the brain damaged Muslims who have gone ahead to become Jihadis."
Unfortunately what Proudkafir says is true. That are some Muslims that cannot be helped. There is no option for them, except death. That's why Islam must be destroyed.
But enough about PK and lets
But enough about PK and lets get back to the topic.
Krishna786, who said Linga is
Krishna786, who said Linga is penis? When you say there are three forms of bodies viz sthoola deha (outer body), linga deha (inner body), and jiva (soul), what does linga mean here? Please refer to old Panini's grammar. Shivalinga signifies the shape of the universe. For this refer to Shanti parva section of Mahabharath, wherein you will find an explanation for the meaning of Linga. FYKI, the equivalent word for penis in Sanskrit is shishna. The European Christians saw Shivalinga as phallus and therefore they wrote according to the capability of their brain. Refer to Panini's grammar work; nowhere does he state linga is phallus or penis.
PK You say that you don't
PK
You say that you don't hate Muslims. That is a lie, you hate Muslims and why are you trying to be politically correct about it. You don't just hate Muslims, you hate everyone associated with Islam which includes the ex-Muslims. Just bcos you say that you don't hate ex-Muslims means nothing, its like saying islam is the religion of peace. Your words betray your thoughts which reappear in your posts time and again.
When I said that there are Muslims who can never be helped, I was specifically referring to those gun trotting Jihadis who have been brainwashed beyond repair.
As for your employing Muslims at the work place, you are not doing them any favor. I am sure they must be doing some sort of work for you and I am pretty sure that your organization is not a place for charity. If you want to kick those people out for being Muslim, its your choice.
Let just tell you something about myself, more than 90% of my employees are Hindu, rest of them are Muslims and Sikhs. So now I really don't look for a person's religious affiliation when I appoint him for a job. Simple as that. All that matters to me is the work output that the person can give.
Of course there were a few issues in my work place as the Muslims thought that they were at a greater benefit than the Hindus in my company. I however crushed this misconception and now every one in my company knows that none of them are indispensable and they are all just employees of my organization. Their religious affiliation is of no consequence to me.
sat-chit-ananda dear friend,
sat-chit-ananda
dear friend, leaving Islam is not just about leaving a religion but also breaking a covenant. Muslims are brought up thinking that they are a part of a great covenant called the Islamic ummah. Leaving Islam requires a lot of will power as it induces a feeling of guilt and betrayal towards your own people and religion.
There are many Muslims who don't believe what their religion teaches, however they are not able to leave Islam owing to the fact that the guilt feeling of betraying the covenant takes over them. The only other people who have similar feelings are the Jews and maybe the Christians.
So even after we break our covenant and are not accepted by the people we do get a feeling that it was not worth it. Ofcourse expecting Hindus to accept us is not something we are looking forward to. Hindus don't accept the low catse Hindus so how can we expect them to accept us ex-muslims.
Believe sat, I personally have no dillusions about being accepted by Hindus, and this is why I say that all appeals by Hindus for muslims to convert to Hindusim are hot gas... I know that the muslims who do become hindus will never be accepted by the hindus in general.
VHP is just an organization and has nothing to do with what Hindus do in general. Even if a Hindu is a leftist or even some who does not care about being Hindu, he will always look down upon the lower caste Hindus. With such a mentality I feel that its a joke that VHP is asking Muslims to leave Islam and come back to Hinduism.
Sadly when I said the same thing in IW, lot of Hindus got angry with me and started calling me names. Perhaps scholars like Dr. Bhramachari, should conduct a research amongst their people before making such bold statements like "MUSLIMS BROTHERS OF THE SUBCONTINENT COME BACK TO YOUR HINDU RELIGION" and stuff.
This is what I call BULL. Now my friend, let me tell you something else, any Muslim who decides to leave Islam and adopt a new faith, wont even give Hinduism a thought because they know that they would never be accepted. This is the reason why my friend, people convert to Christianity. While I don't agree with the Christian philosophy, yet it is the only option left open for ex-Muslims who cannot live without a religious identity.
This is quite contrary to how Muslims treat converts. They are felicited and helped in every way possible. The Muslims make extra efforts to make the person fell comfortable. Financial and social help is always around the corner. People will make you feel special and this is why people convert to Islam, even though it is a stupid religion.
To Ibrahim,Nurul, Proud Kafir
To Ibrahim,Nurul, Proud Kafir and Ali Sina:
The conversation between Ibrahim and Nurul about changing muslims through love and kindness is great but sadly impractical.
How can we change a civilization which is bigoted to such an extreme that it has reached a point of no-return?
How can we change a community , whose 90% adherents ( I am being very noble here) have a totally warped world view?
From my interactions with muslims, I have come to know that most of them are deadly brain-washed. The atmosphere at their home is sick. The amount of hatred they have for every thing modern and un-islamic is frightening.
I have a muslim friend ( superficial friendship). He is a namazi. We used to work in the same company before. One fine evening, we were having a walk in the garden of the building premises. A few young girls wearing tight fitting T-shirts and jeans happend to pass by. Normally people of our age group enjoy watching sexy young girls. But this guy flinched his nose. He said that what kind of upbringing these girls have in their home. It damages my religion( he used a hindi word - 'dharam-bhrasht' to be specific).Naturally these girls were Hindus. I asked my friend as to why does not he live in a muslim colony where he will get to see burqa-clad women? Why is he living in a hindu colony?
He was offended by my comment and we are not on talking terms anymore.
This was just a glimpse of the dark world infesting a muslim's mind. These people are pests. They get all the benefits of the modern world and modern society but still despise it. It is their upbringing which makes them think like this.
Can we seriously help muslims to come out of the disease called Islam through love and compassion?
The answer is a big NO.
Islam was born with Violence and It has to end with violence.
Its a simple rule of nature: What goes around comes around.
Honestly, we can't care about 1% ex-muslims who talk about bringing down Islam throght love and knowledge. They are fools to think like that.
How many muslims listen to such people?
Apostates have a death penalty on them in Islam.
Muslims don' give a shit about them.
A case in study to end terrorism is Sri Lanka.
Just look how a determined government brought down the LTTE Tigers to their knees. That coward Prabhakaran is on the run.
For the last 30 years, Sri Lankan govt tried to deal with these monsters peacefully but got mayhem, suicide bombing and terrorism in return from these scoundrels. Once the Sri-Lankan decided that enough is enough and started to give it back to LTTE in their own way, they are on the run.
The same has to happen with Islamic Terrorists.
One day the world will decide that enough is enough.
It will need a leader who is as ruthless as Mohammad and Hitler and do the job of wiping out Islam from the face of the earth.
Genocide, even though horrible and grossly in-humane, solves the problem once and for all. It keeps a balance between the evil community and humane community.
I see that in future, the end of Islam will begin with the bombing of Mecca and that black box.
A full scale war and mass murdering of muslims is the only solution.
Islam is growing due to its high population.reduce that population and islam will be reduced.
The hatred which Kashmiris have against Hindus and India was evident in te 'Amarnath Shrineboard controversy'.
The only solution for Kashmir is to wipe out the whole populaton of Kashmir.
Men and Women should be killed point-blank and their children should be sent to buddhist monastries. All mosques and madarsas should be destroyed.
Quran should be declared illegal and be banned. Muslims who want to live should be given an option to convert to any other religion or become atheists.
This should be the only way they should be allowed to survive.
To Ibrahim and Nurul:
MUSLIMS DON'T UNDERSTAND LOVE. THEY UNDERSTAND ONLY FEAR.
FEAR IS THE KEY.
Hmm let me think.When did I
Hmm let me think.When did I do some thing bad to a moslem because he was a moslem, as I hate moslems? hmmm...................................... ALright cant think of one instance where I did some thing terribly worng simply because he/ she was a moslem.
When did a moslem do some thing bad simply because I was not a moslem? can think of hundreds on instances! Pakis, Egyptians, Palestanians,and even mayayasian moslems were down right nasty at one time or other.Infact better moslems I have come across are Iraqis and Bahrainis.These two are the best moslems.Iranians are very decent people as well.The worst are the paki crap, Egyptians,palestanians and ethiopians.What about Indian moslem? There is no uniform entity called Indian moslem.They differ just as Hindus do from north to south.
I can not understand your victim mentality.If Hindus do not accept you moslems, then so be it.Instead you keep telling me I am lying about me hating moslems.etc.
There is no problem for low caste people.They can not be openly insulted and in India its a non bailable crime.Insulting a low caste.That is incidentally against Manu's laws! The problem for Indian moslems is simple,They have nothing sacred and worshippable inside India and their god is in the black stone of arabia.When you reach the land of arabs, they treat you all like crap! Infact worse than they would treat Hindus.Hindus have no problem in sodi barbaria as they know it's not their land and they leave sooner or later.It's the indian moslems who have a problem.They can not leave so easily and can not stay taking insults day in and out from extremely stupid and arrogant sodis.Moslems are in your own words good at Violence.How true indeed.
The only thing a moslem knows is wanton destruction.Make no mistake about it.People will retaliate and then there will be mayhem.Innocents will get hurt.Both Hindus and moslems.The sooner moslems realise the better.
Frankly I dont give a toss as to whether you are an ex moslem or an ex coptic.All that matters to me is this.This site has more than adequately exposed the evils and ills of moslem society and those ills and evils are directly related to qrand. During my stay in sodi barbaria I read through qrand and then used to make note of how the qrand is an all controlling system.I took note of how the behaviour of people is altered due to this evil qrand. Want examples? Indian moslems shave off moustache and keep beard.I used to find it funny and ugly looking, till I read qrand and prophet's sunnah.There prophet even mentions about this! Then I used to see the indian moslems not having baths for months will stick the cotton soaked with some nasty smelling perfume in the ear and walk around.Again sunnah.I still see moslem men wearing kajal( eye liner( and dying the hair red that of course is sunnah.Islam is a total control system. Its a noose around your neck.The harder you try to take it out the tighter it becomes and the farther away you try to go from islam the tighter the noose becomes. Islam is evil any which way you look.Moslems who want to leave this evil need help.True indeed.As I said earlier how do distinguish between a jihadi scum who wants to thigh an infant from a moderate moslem who wants to marry a six year old to a mild moslem who wants to leave islam.They all look and to an extent behave alike.ANy way words do not always tell you the whole story. Islam is peace! same way.I do not think that I have done any thing wrong against moslems of any nationality.But moslems of all nationality including indian moslems have been down right mean at some point of time simply because they were all moslems and i was not.
Ibrahim Judging from your
Ibrahim
Judging from your response, I guess you have a practical world-view. While you are right about recoversion of a muslim to a hindu fold has its own issues, especially finding place in a traditional social structure which has concommitant issues of acceptability as you rightly pointed out, yet this issue is not that rigid. There is a flip side to it. The Arya samaj movement amongst hindus was started essentially to address this issue. They have been able to rehabilitate muslims within the hindu fold with total social acceptability and recognition. Most of the present arya samaj hindus especially from Punjab and old Delhi are reconverted muslims. It is casteless hindu social structure. You might like to explore them further perhaps to modify your opinion.
Again and again I see the
Again and again I see the blame game well perfected by moslems.They blame joos/hindus/ others for all their ills but never ever it's a moslem fault! Next time Mr Ibrahim when you travel all over India and visit the historic relics and places, kindly make a note of how many temples are destroyed, the art work mutilated,The wanton destruction left behind by the barbarians is there for all to see. You want me to be kind and caring to these barbarians?.The Indian moslems are the product of rape of the locals by the invadibng barbarians and they are not even aware of it.that's the sad part. I did not ask you leave islam ( either you or nurulhuda) and by leaving islam you are not doing a favour to me.Right? You left islam because your rational mind would not accept the crap in Islam. You do not like to be inferior to arabs.Simple.In life there is a price to be paid for every thing.Its important to decide whether it's worth paying that price.Islam demands life and either inside or out side islam islam demands blood.Thta's why ilsam has always had bloody borders.Islam is evil.
Very well Proud Kafir, go and
Very well Proud Kafir, go and kill all the Muslims if that is what you think is the solution. All the best to you!
Come on ibrahim why r u
Come on ibrahim why r u making fun of PK ( pagal kafir ).This coward in one of his posting said if he faces a muscum with a knife in his hand he likes to have a AK47 in his hand but still he will not kill him because it is against his culture,egos,religion etc what ever it may be.I bet u this is only person over here how is going to destroy islam with out killing any muslim.
Dear Bond keep your advise to
Dear Bond keep your advise to your self. I am what ever I am but you certainly are not james or Bond!
I can not understand your imbecility.I said I can not kill a moslem even for just reasons let alone indiscriminately.If you are an Indian and have been affected by the destructive mentality of moslems for generations, you will have hazar reasons to attack moslems.Your imbecility can not fathom the meaning of the simple words.let me try again.I did not say Moscum! I said I would like to face the moslem with a dagger in hand only if i have a AK 47! That was in response to Ibrahim's comment that I can not match violence of moslems. Do you get the meaning.Where ever have I said, I want to kill moslems? I indicated that I would not like to kill any one for even just reasons.I am sure your bible reading has dulled your brains.So you are upset I can understand your tantrums.I shall just say" oh lord forgive him, he knows not what he is doing"!
Any way Mr Ibrahim
Where have I said I want to kill all the moslems?
I shall give you an exercise.Travel to Bangalore and then from there to a city called Hampi 265 Kms from Bangalore in South India.See for your self how the moslems destroyed the most elegant and glorious city of Vijayanagara empire.The city burned for almost a year and the the moslems burnt the most treasured library containing the poems of a famous saint Purandara Dasa. I said this destruction is visible every where you travel.I have travelled to more than 300 places of interest in south India alone and have made a note of the level of destruction brought on by moslems.The worst is in Hampi.Please do not forget to travel to places in Kerala and see for your self the level of destruction by the tippu sultan.Our historians have deleberately hidden the wanton destruction by the moslems.and Tippu is projected as the tiger! Sad part is the victims of this thug do not even know this thug's actions.I visited his grave and spat on it and came.Such is the level of heinous crime committed by moslems.Still I am not saying killing the present day moslems is the answer for the errors of the past.Only an imbecile person would want to do that. Its important to digest the destructive mentality of moslems in general and In India in particular.. People who forget the history are likely to repeat the same mistake! Tha't's exactly what is happening In India.
I used to believe that there
I used to believe that there cannot be any ex-Muslim. However, after seeing MAK, Ali Sena, Ibn Warraq, and Ibrahim my views have changed. I think ex-Muslims are instrumental in bringing more people out of Islam. As a Hindu, if I asked any Muslim to become an apostate, I would be attacked. However, if an ex-Muslim does that to his/her relatives, then probably it might work.
I quite agree with ibrahim's
I quite agree with ibrahim's statement " While I do not agree with Christian philosophy yet it is the only option left for ex-mulsims who cannot live without a religious identity". If the ex-muslims want a mass conversion of muslims it can happen only by conversion to Christianity. Simply because muslims have some knowledge about 'ingil' issa nabi, and the Christians as the 'people of the book'
PK ( pagal kafir ) with out
PK ( pagal kafir ) with out killing present moscum how r u going to destroy islam and u say we cant win there hearts by showing them love ok i know u r brain cells r dead like moscum, still i would like to give u a chance, can u come up with u r ideas how to destroy islam.
wagamama Says: ""r, if an
wagamama Says:
""r, if an ex-Muslim does that to his/her relatives, then probably it might work.""
I think you are right. But I doubt if PK and NH etc think your way? May be Ibrahim , Ibn Kamunna and Ali Sina are right as they could dare to become apostates.
=================================================
But the solution #43. roman Suggested ---
"it can happen only by conversion to Christianity. Simply because muslims have some knowledge about ‘ingil’ issa nabi, and the Christians as the ‘people of the book’""
-from the frying pan to fire.
Christianity is not and can never be a solution for Islamic Evils. As Christianity is itself also as Evil as Islam or more, a subtle Evil.
40. JAMES BOND 007
40. JAMES BOND 007 Says
"--Come on ibrahim why r u making fun of PK ( pagal kafir ).This coward in one of his posting said if he faces a muscum with a knife in his hand he likes to have a AK47 in--""
Hi James Gand 007 you are talking like your British Gand father, who was kicked out of India much before 1947. Why are you after PK baby?
Ibrahim, Hinduism is in
Ibrahim, Hinduism is in general not a proseletyzing religion, so there is no custom of welcoming converts. The only Hindus who view things differently are people like the VHP. I don't agree with all their views but they do realize that there is a desperate struggle going on against Islam.
As far as openness of Hindus is concerned I will mention that many Hindus of all castes have a very genuine admiration for APJ Abdul Kalam, even though he is nominally a Muslim. Abdul Kalam is so much in tune with Tamil/Hindu culture that he is affectionately called "Kalam Iyer". Even caste discrimination is not what it used to be - society is becoming more meritocratic.
If Christianity appeals to you, well and good. If you want to explore Hinduism, you'll have to go beyond the rituals to the core. I generally recommend the book "The Science of Religion" by Paramahansa Yogananda. IMHO, the core of Christianity is in harmony with the core of Hinduism, and Jesus can be considered to be a great Yogi, on par with Indian saints like Ramakrishna Paramahansa, Kabir, or Guru Nanak.
44. JAMES GAND 007 Says: PK
44. JAMES GAND 007 Says:
PK ( pagal kafir ) with out killing present moscum how r u going to destroy islam and u say we cant win there hearts by showing them love ok i know u r brain cells r dead like moscum, still i would like to give u a chance, can u come up with u r ideas how to destroy islam.
No one can destroy Islam when Gands like JEMES GAND 007 are around. LOL
sat-chit-ananda My dear
sat-chit-ananda
My dear friend, I specifically said that I don't agree with Christianity as I don't agree with Judaism or any other Semitic religion for that matter. If peace is to brought about to the Indian subcontinent there is only way and that is for the Muslims to revert to the faith of their ancestors.
Muslims cleaving Islam is good news, but Muslims converting to Christianity especially in the subcontinent is very bad news. The ill effects of conversions is very easily seen in tribal regions all over India and I don't want to go further on that issue.
I agree that Hinduism is not a prosthyzing religion, but my friend necessity breeds invention. Some things need to be changed. Tell me something, why can't I be a mainstream Hindu, just bcos my ancestors had to forcibly convert to Islam. Is that my fault.
All I was trying to tell you is that Hindus need to change their attitudes if peace is ever to return back to our land.
However if it is constant rife that you want, well what can I say.
As for me , I don't believe in any religion, but the ways of my ancestors fascinate me and I love to read of their scriptures and their texts.
All said and done sat-chit-ananda, reform has to start within the Hindu fold before Muslims can comfortable return back to the ways of their ancestors.
If this does not happen, things don't change in anyway. If Muslims become Christians the situation becomes status quo, what the Muslims are doing today will be replicated by the Christians tomorrow, the only difference is that they will be more dangerous, considering they will have Western backing and full support of the Vatican.
There is a saying Kashmiri "Nov musalman chu 5 waqt namaz paran" roughly translated it means the new Muslim is the most devout of all. Same will be the case with these Muslim converts to Christianity who will carry their fanatical outlook forward to their new faith.
Try to read the writing on the wall, everything is possible the need of the hour is to bring a little shift in your attitudes.
Don't take my words personally but I try to see things practically and my mind tells me that this is the only solution possible.
29. JAMES BOND 007 Says:
29. JAMES BOND 007 Says: Really this PK ( pagal kafir ) is doing a great damage than good, so i request people over here to take him as a scrap and ignore him.
He is having mental diarrhea it seems.... we shall let him have all his diarrheaic waste... and once he is tired it will stop.