Miss Faiza Ramzan Update II: Islam gives full rights to women

primitive ...

I have often wondered why the Musilima say things that (to me at least) seem oxymorons.
I mean statements such as:
"The freedom of the Burqa".
"Islam respects women."
"Women have equal rights in Islam."
etc.
I think Fiaza gives me the answer.
Firstly: you have to ignore any "inconvenient truths" (cf her fantasy about Saudia Arabia).
Second: You have to have a very partial understanding of Islam. (cf her comment about equality - no reference given- compared with Koranic verses, Hadith etc whish have been quoted in the forum extensively.).
Third: You have to be an expert at "double-think". (cf the above and what must be her true situation if she is traditional Moslem).

So it seems to me that Faiza inhabits a world where falsehood is truth, inequality is equality, incarceration is freedom, etc.

What Does "Islam" Mean?

The word "Islam" itself means "Submission to Allah." The religion of Islam is not named after a person as in the case of "Christianity" which was named after Jesus Christ, "Buddhism" after Gutama Buddha , "Marxism" after Karl Marx, and "Confucianism" after Confucius.

Similarly, Islam is not named after a tribe like "Judaism" after the tribe of Judah and "Hinduism" after the Hindus. The Arabic word "Islam" means the submission or surrender of one's will to the will of the only true god worthy of worship, "Allah" (known as God "the Father" in Christianity).

Anyone who does indeed submit to the will of Allah as required by Islam is termed a "Muslim," which means one who has submitted to the will of Allah. Many people in the West have developed the sad misinformed trend of calling Islam "Muhammadenism" and it's followers "Muhammadins." This is a totally foreign word to Muslims and unrecognized by them. No Muslim has ever called his religion "Muhammadenism" or called himself a "Muhammadin."

What Is The Basic Concept of Islam?

Islam teaches us that this life is a life of worship. We are placed on this earth in order to worship Allah and obey His command. During this earthly life we are subjected to a series of trials. We have the option of enduring these trials and conforming to certain laws, and our reward will be great in the next life, or we may decline to endure these trials and choose to not conform to the law, then we will be made to regret it in the next life.

Each person will be solely and completely responsible for their own final reward. We are also told that God has designed these laws to make this life a better, safer, and more tolerable one for us. If we elect to conform to them then we will see the result in this life even before moving on to the next.
We are told that the earthly life is a life of faith and work, and the next life is one of reward and no work. We have been placed on this earth to worship God, fast, pray, be industrious, good, kind, respectful, and a source of uprightness and morality. We are told that God has no need of our worship. Our worship can not increase the kingdom of God nor add to His power, however, it is in our best interests both in this life and the next that we do.

Unlike some other religions which claim that God entered in a covenant with a certain group of people and that this group is genetically better than all other human beings, or closer to God, Islam on the other hand teaches that no color, race, tribe, or lineage is better than any other. Islam teaches that all humans are equal in the sight of Allah and that the only thing that can distinguish them in His sight is their piety and worship.

"O humankind! Verily! We have created you from a male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that you may know one another. Verily! the noblest among you in the sight of Allah is the most God-fearing. Verily! Allah is The Knower, The Aware." The noble Qur'an, Al-Hujrat(49):13.

Learn quran because it’s the best way to feel Islam learn quran online, learn quran http://www.learningquranonline.com

Whatever Faiza has posted so far by way of e-mails is her unsubstantiated beliefs. She is like a CD/cassette that plays on continuously unaware of its contents.

She is dispatching everyone to hell. Islamic hell will be pretty place to be in, if such a place as hell exists. As muslimahs are destined for jahannam.

Women's rights in Islam

Miss Faiza Ramzan,
I must take issue with you on this; besides being cruel to non muslims, Islam is extremely unfair to muslim women - six examples, drawn from the Quran and the Sharia readily come to mind:

1) A muslim man can have upto 4 wives, but a muslim woman cannot have more than one spouse;

2) A muslim man can have a Christian/Jewish wife, a muslim woman cannot have a non-muslim spouse;

3) A muslim husband can beat his wife if he as much as fears "rebellion", but a muslim woman has no such rights over her husband, no matter how lecherous, cruel or unfair he might be !

4) A muslim husband can divorce his wife/wives by simply pronouncing 'talaq'(divorce) three times without assigning any reason, a muslim woman has no such rights; {the only option she has is to apply to a sharia court for the long-winded and cumbersome procedure called a 'khula' divorce, where even if she wins, she loses any claim to the 'mehr' amount. Btw, she loses custody of the children in either of the above two types of divorce.}

5) In a sharia court, the value of a woman's witness is half that of a man's;

6) Upon the demise of the parents, a muslim woman inherits half of what her male siblings (i.e. brothers) inherit.

The Quran clearly states that men are a " degree" above the women.

In view of the above Miss Ramzan, do you still think "islam gives full right to women " ?

If you do, then either you have not studies the Quran/Hadiths/Sirat or you do not want to admit what is in them !

Your comments on punishment for thieves smacks of inhumanity .... the punishment for petty theft can never be loss of hands .... punishment must always be appropriate to the crime committed. Much better is the Western system of reformist treatment, where the criminal is made to understand the crime he/she has committed and is encouraged to reform without the painful amputation of limbs.

LIfe of every living being is the most precious thing on this earth, it should not be extinguised wily-nily, as exemplified in Islam by the killings/burnings committed by Mohammed and his cousin Ali, among others.

The worst thing is thaT ALLAH CREATED WOMEN stupid tABARI 1:280 AND HELLFIRE WHERE MOST mUSLIM WOMEN ARE GOING. HOW CAN ANY EDUCATED mUSLIM WOMEN BE SO STUPID. OH, ALLAH MADE MUSLIMS WOMEN STUPID.

Faiza:

you’ll see on the day of judgement, which is close, you will ask for mercy and forgiveness and allah(swt)
wont forgive you.

I say:

Good I rather go to hell then join the whorehouse.

Faiza:

it is right to cut the hands of a theif because that way people wont bother stealing

I say:

Because they won't have any hands to steal with. Moron

Faiza:

YOU KNOW WHY because these people are scared to fight in the house of allah (swt) and they have imaan and modesty their scared that their hands will get chopped of which is why no one even daresto do such a thing
now you tell me why is the sharia law wrong when it gets us muslims in the right path

I say:

So if a relative of yours got into a fight, you would have no problem with their hands being chopped off because it puts them in the right?

Editor:

A final note that we would like to add is that Miss Ramzan seems to think that there is a lot of good in Saudi Arabia. We invite her to read Dr. Sami Alrabaa; a Saudi national who lived there for most of his life. The title of his book is Karin in Saudi Arabia. His book is available from Amazon. com. We think that this book will give her a good idea about what is going on in her “Heaven of Earth”; Saudi Arabia. If there is a Hell on earth, it is Saudi Arabia.

I say:

I believe reading the book won't change her mind. When people believe chopping off other people's hands is good, it is most likely to late for those people.

Ironic how muslims say that shirk is the #1 sin, but they are doing their god's work all the time - judging others. The first couple of lines are nothing but shirk filled rants.

I suppose they follow mohammed, once again, since mohammed was always committing shirk and putting himself right up there with his god.

I don't think that Faiza is rational at all. I wrote previously that she sounds hysterical.

As for Saudi Arabia having thieves - oh, they have them. A pal of mine was in Saudi Arabia working for Aramco in the 1970s (before I was really aware of what islam was all about), and was forced to see them chop a person's hand off. He also saw a women being beheaded because her rapist didn't bring a circus to witness the deed and turn him in (gee, I wonder why the guy didn't bring any witnesses - could it be he knew he could get some and then she would be the one to be punished for it - no punishment for the perpetrators of such crimes!)

Saudi creepy arabia is one of the more disgusting places on this earth. Personally, I wish their oil supply would just dry up.

Is this woman for real?

Dear Miss Faiza Ramzan,

You asked and I would like to answer from a realistic point of view:

"by the way islam gives full right to women"

No it does not. In matters of divorce, child custody, marital rights, inheritance, witnessing she stands weak and doe not enjoy equal rights. Just to name a few. You might want to read up on sharia in the Quran, Hadith and the opinion of fatwa issuers and legal jurists of islam throughout time. You can buy or borrow these books at the library or read some online.

"i know what your point is you are saying that islam hates women when it is said in islam that ” a women was born from the side of a man, she was not born beneath him to get tread all over and nor was she born on his head as a master, she was born at his side EQUAL to him”"

This is your interpretation which is not really supported by present day traditional islamic interpretation by the scholars (ijma). In the Quran it says a man enjoys a degree above the women in matters of rights as he is the man, thus the provider of the house.

"also in islam if you make a women cry allah the almighty will make you pay for every tear which she has said"

An outright fabrication. Where in the Quran does it say that? What the Quran does say, on marriage, is some good things and some less good, i.e. a man can beat his wife is she does not obey him or is rebellious. It does not sound like you have read the Quran.

"it is right to cut the hands of a theif because that way people wont bother stealing"

So disabling a person is alright? He will never be able to make a living, do anything, play with his children, carass his wife. Have you ever heard of second chances? Are you familiar with the words "poverty", "starvation", "needy"?

Do you think people will stop wearin scarf, burka, niqab just because the law forbids it? Of course not. Prohibitions never work. Stealing can be punished in many ways without chopping off somebody hands but perhaps you prefer to cut off limbs. Will you be using those for decoration? I imagine you would happily participate in stoning rape victims too because in your eyes it is zina.

have you ever heard of someone staeling in saudi arabia

YES! Even in Saudi Arabia stealing, looting, robbing occurs. And some get away. Some don't.

"have you heard about rape cases in saudi arabia"

Er, which planet have you been living on? The accounts of rapes, gang rapes, both on saudi women as well as foreign migrant workers is well documented.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/world/01saudi.html (The infamous case of 'the girl from Qatif' - the girl was gang raped and then sentenced to 200 lashes because the judge and legal sharia system equates rape to fornication)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7098480.stm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1141267/Saudi-judge-se... (girl accepts lift from man and gets raped)

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/11/15/saudi-arabia-rape-victim-punished-... (rape vitcim punished for going public with her rape)

http://www.indonesiamatters.com/3850/gang-rape/ (Indonesian maid raped by Saudi employer)

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/news/breakingnews/view/20080612-142307/... (Philipina maid raped in a Saudi gang rape)

http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2006/1694/?print=yes (pakistani female kidnapped and raped in Saudi Arabia)

Do you need more accounts or will this suffice?

In Saudi Arabia rape actually pays. The socalled strict punishments are only a formality. They have no real weight when the rapist is a Saudi arab national. Therefore kidnappings and gangrapes are quite widespread and the victims stay silent because any admission or accusation of rape will lead to a charge against the victim of fornication (zina) and thus she would be punished.

"have heard about saudi arabia fighting or vandalism"

Yes Saudi Arabia fights the rape victims, the women by denying them basic rights in matters of divorce, marital rape or just rape, custody of children, permission to leave the country without her wali's written permission, the reestriction of working which is possible but difficult due to sexual harrassment in work places etc, child brides but yet the child bride has no say and can not even divorce her husband, wife beatings etc which is all perfectly sanctioned in the Quran or the hadith if not both. Just to name a few.

Vandalism yes because they commit human right abuses every single day in the name of Islam and that to me is the greatest vandalism of all.

Other than that Saudi Arabia/KSA is a really great place. Especially for men.

"they have imaan and modesty"

Yes what a great imaan and sense of modesty. Cut off peoples limbs, lash them to blood and meet out death penalties. Remember the case of the 75 year old woman who was accused of zina because she had to young men, of which one was almost like her son, visit her with loafs of bread? 45 lashes.

"now you tell me why is the sharia law wrong when it gets us muslims in the right path "

The path can not ever be derived from fear. If you are so fond of Saudi Arabia, I suggest you move there and hope and pray you never get kidnapped or raped.

Seeing as you support sharia and its punishments, that makes you a homophobic, misogynistic, inhumane, prejudist bigot. You support force over free will. And many will argue there is not compulsion in religion yet you have just argued the opposite.

Your lack of knowledge is embarrassing and reveals itself. If you seek to debate people on Islam, I suggest you indulge in some sincere studying of the subject and get your basic knowledge. I highly doubt you have read the entire Quran, its tafsir, the the volumes of multiple hadith collections, the ijma, the biographies about the prophet Muhammad (sira).

I think it would be great if you opened the news paper once in a while or just started studying human rights issues around the world or watched the news for a change. Just to see what happens in the world outside of your rosy cocoon.

tip of the iceberg, how many retarded idiots you think living in this world?

this kind of the muslim woman, even their husband beat the hell out of her she still praise allah, burqa coming handy to conceal the bruises, insyaallah your husband use his right to beat you!

Miss Faiza is delusional. I'm just a lowly kufr, but I know enough about Saudi Arabia to respond to her questions:

Have you ever heard of someone stealing in Saudi Arabia? Yes, the entire Royal family is stealing from its citizens every day. They are living in multiple palaces off the nation's natural resource, oil, while the masses are poor, underemployed, and only marginally educated. Petty theft by stealth is called sarika, and it is done by mostly the poor. They are the ones who get their hands cut off. Exempt from this punishment are taking by force (ghasb). confiscation (khiyana), and embezzlement (ikhtilas). The Saudi Royal Family and members of the government are into the latter three kinds of theft BIG TIME, but those kinds of theft are not punishable under Sharia Law. In civilized countries, all four are crimes, but the latter earn much stiffer penalties due to their violation of the public trust. Muhammad and his successor Abu Bakr lived very humble and frugal lives, and they would be disgusted with the excesses of the Royal family today.

Have you heard about rape cases in Saudi Arabia? In addition to the horrific accounts in "Karin in Saudi Arabia," the Islamic institutions of child brides, muta (temporary) wives, and polygamy all contribute to legalized rape and adultery.

Have you heard about Saudi Arabia fighting or vandalism? Ms. Faiza must have forgotten about the siege of Mecca in 1979 by Saudi discontents led by Juhayman bin Uteybi, and how the siege was lifted only after a two week stalemate with the help of French special forces. Powerful cleric Abdelaziz bin Baz used the crisis to wrestle more repressive and regressive concessions out of the Royal family. All of this is copiously documented in "The Siege of Mecca" by Yaroslav Trofimov.

To understand such muslimah's or muslims study "StockHolm Syndrom". Also in many cases girls get emotional with rapist while desise the cops. Muslims are indoctrinated from childhood by parents and them mullahs of the nearest masjid.
If you teach a child from early age that water is fire etc, then he will learn like that. The muslims teach there kids so much fear about Jinns, hell, haram things, day of judgement like nonsense that kid grows in that environment, they also learn hatred to non-muslims. In the whole world muslims only riot. They only are 'turbulent minority" or "oppressive majority" in the world.
West needs to decouple themselves from muslims as soon as possible and clean the countries of muslims and send them back to there sharia infested muslim places.
Just like parasites muslims will start killing each other before junking islam after a great killings of each other.
Also the person's english is too weak and sure he/she is hardly properly educated and havent read much books other than islamic gibberish.

fahimkaman says:
"Unlike some other religions which claim that God entered in a covenant with a certain group of people and that this group is genetically better than all other human beings, or closer to God, Islam on the other hand teaches that no color, race, tribe, or lineage is better than any other. Islam teaches that all humans are equal in the sight of Allah and that the only thing that can distinguish them in His sight is their piety and worship."

“O humankind! Verily! We have created you from a male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that you may know one another. Verily! the noblest among you in the sight of Allah is the most God-fearing. Verily! Allah is The Knower, The Aware.” The noble Qur’an, Al-Hujrat(49):13."

1. OK, Mr. Taqiyya Fahimkaman, this all sounds nice, rosy and wonderful. Now explain this from Muhammad's Quran (Pickthall 3:106-108):

106. On the Day (of Judgment) when some faces will be whitened and some faces will be blackened, it will be said unto them: Disbelieved ye after your (profession of) faith? Then taste the punishment for that ye disbelieved.
107. As for those whose faces have been whitened, lo! in the mercy of Allah they will dwell forever.
108. These are revelations of Allah. We recite them unto thee in truth. Allah willeth no injustice to (His) creatures.

There you have it people - straight from the mouth of this racist Allah. After insulting all Blacks, he then hypocritically claims he “willeth no INJUSTICE to (His) creatures”. Doesn’t this sound just as bizarre as claiming, after yet another vile act of terrorism, that Islam really is a religion of peace?

PS: I included all three verses to rebut this liar who would falsely claim I quoted out of context if I did not.

2. If we are all descended from Adam and Eve, why did your Allah use the sin of incest to create us all and where did all the different colored races and ethnic groups come from, as Islam does not accept evolution as God's way of creation?

3. If Muslims believe their Allah uses pious people to enforce his draconian laws, does this not prove your Allah is impotent to do anything by himself? Moreover why would your Allah use this world to test us with many trials if he was all-knowing? Doesn't your Allah sound more like an ignorant human who needs proof from us of our piety? And to top it all off he is jealous of other non-existent gods. Sounds more like a jealous and insecure lover to me, rather than the mighty creator of our magnificent Universe.

Your puerile concept of Allah pretending to be a real god is an insult to the one true God.

Minor correction:

"Unlike some other religions which claim that God entered in a covenant with a certain group of people and that this group is genetically better than all other human beings, or closer to God, Islam on the other hand teaches that no color, race, tribe, or lineage is better than any other. Islam teaches that all humans are equal in the sight of Allah and that the only thing that can distinguish them in His sight is their piety and worship. "

Not really. I don't know what other religions you refer to but many muslims often tend to criticise christianity and judism for reasons they practice is Islam too.

You see albeit the Quran seems not to divide people or make one people inferior/superior (believers only as non-believers are indeed cursed throughout the Quran as well as apostates) to another.

But the hadith are a different story and hadith have much more say in what constitutes Islam than the Quran because it is wifely held that God was not clear or detailed in the Quran hence the need for hadith. According to the hadith women and black people (pressumably africans) will be represented among the hell dwellers more than any other group. Such can only ring as a misogynistic and racist when viewed with modern eyes:

"Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28

"Narrated 'Imran bin Husain: The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and found poor people forming the majority of its inhabitants; and I looked at Hell and saw that the majority of its inhabitants were women." Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 464

"Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abbas: Then I saw the (Hell) Fire, and I have never before, seen such a horrible sight as that, and I saw that the majority of its dwellers were women" Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 125

"Narrated Imran: The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and saw that the majority of its residents were the poor; and I looked at the (Hell) Fire and saw that the majority of its residents were women." Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 126

"Narrated 'Imran bin Husain: The Prophet said, "I looked into Paradise and found that the majority of its dwellers were the poor people, and I looked into the (Hell) Fire and found that the majority of its dwellers were women." Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 76, Number 456

"Usama b. Zaid reported that Allah's Messenger (way peace be upon him) said: I stood at the door of Paradise and I found that the overwhelming majority of those who entered therein was that of poor persons and the wealthy persons were detained to get into that. The denizens of Hell were commanded to get into Hell, and I stood upon the door of Fire and the majority amongst them who entered there was that of women." Sahih Muslim, Book 036, Number 6596

"Ibn Abbas reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I had a chance to look into the Paradise and I found that majority of the people was poor and I looked into the Fire and there I found the majority constituted by women." Sahih Muslim, Book 036, Number 6597

"Imran b. Husain reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Amongst the inmates of Paradise the women would form a minority" Sahih Muslim, Book 036, Number 6600

"Usama b. Zaid reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I have not left after me any (chance) of turmoil more injurious to men than the harm done to the men because of women" Sahih Muslim, Book 036, Number 6603

"Usama b. Zaid b. Harith and Sa'id b. Zaid b. 'Amr b. Naufal both reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I have not left after me turmoil for the people but the harm done to men by women." Sahih Muslim, Book 036, Number 6604

"So avoid the allurement of women: verily, the first trial for the people of Isri'll was caused by women." Sahih Muslim, Book 036, Number 6606

"Abu Darda reported that the Holy Prophet said: Allah created Adam when he created him (sic). Then He stroke (sic) his right shoulder and took out a white race as if they were seeds, and He stroke (sic) his left shoulder and took out a black race as if they were coals. Then He said to those who were in his right side: Towards paradise and I don't care. He said to those who were on his left shoulder: Towards Hell and I don't care." Ahmad (Mishkat ul-Masabih, translated by Karim, v. iii, p. 117)

"Ahmad ibn Abi Sulayman, the companion of Sahnun said, “Anyone who says that the Prophet was black should be killed." (Ibn Musa al-Yahsubi, Qadi ‘Iyad, p.375)

"Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews" Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6985

"Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You would tread the same path as was trodden by those before you inch by inch and step by step so much so that if they had entered into the hole of the lizard, you would follow them in this also. We said: Allah's Messenger, do you mean Jews and Christians (by your words)" those before you"? He said: Who else (than those two religious groups)?" Sahih Muslim, Book 034, Number 6448

So far this is discrimination based on race/colour of skin, religion and gender. Your point can thus only be credible, if you rejected hadith and I don't get the impression you do, as this is deemed incompatible with being a Muslim by most scholars and Muslims.

Clearly you will also find hadith which contradict these above mentioned.

Even today there are great tensions between jews and muslims. Furthermore women rights are utopia in all Muslims countries. Western women and liberty is viewed largely as negative, immoral, vulgar and incompatible with Sharia and Islam. Feminism and human rights is views as innovations and vulgar. There is racial and ethnic heirachy between Muslims. Interracial marriages among muslims is still not widespread. Arabs tend to often be considered both by themselves as well as others as superior in matters of Islam. The intolerence that many muslim writes display when attempting to criticize this website or its authors and their objective is also an evidence that intolerance is thriving in Muslim communities. Anybody who dares to think differently is assumed to be a kafir, apostate, misguided, misunderstood, discredited etc.

Something that really makes me believe in evolution is when i hear a muslim or a liberal speak. The similarities between them and apes is amazing!

Wanderer
Thanks.

Muhammad said Arabs were the best of all mankind in hadith tabari.
A black man is the DEVIL
less than a donkey's penis isahq 243
black women stupid, ugly, bad omens, nappy headed, pug nosed and slaves for hellfire
Islam calls blacks takruni, zenj, same as saying the N_______word. Muhammad sex mary the coptic slave and she had a child but the child was not from impotent Mo. A slave boy was the father.
Muhammad had Mahran a black slave he renamed safina meaning ship and safina never submitted to islam.
Bilal was a mixed arab.

Raisin Head,

Could I perhaps convince you to state the actual hadiths underlying your last post?

Any references or such would be helpful although I know it may take some times. Thanks.

The coptic slave you referred to, is that by any chance Mariya(h)?

Toodles

Evolution theory best explains the growth of life on our beloved planet -- better than any theological Creation.

Even believers of Creationism, includes Muslims as well, believe it halfheartedly. This is amusing.

Hello Kokamal,

I also am an atheist, although I prefer the term Darwinist, because A-theist describes what I am NOT, just as Kafir, Heathen, Infidel, ex-Muslim, Apostate and many words describe people in terms of what they are or have NOT. Even the term NGO does that, it means Non-Governmental Organisation. I like to find positive terms instead of these negative terms.

But about evolution; I am now reading the new book of Richard Dawkins; The greatest show on Earth. What intrigues me is that he speaks about contemporary beliefs, shown in surveys. He says that 40-44 % of Americans, slightly less Europeans and seemingly many Muslims (not surveyed yet) believe that the Earth was created less than 10.000 years ago! # 36 % of Americans believe in evolution and that Earth is # 4,6 billion years old, but that God had something to do with it. Apparently this is believed by most of the upper clergy of UK also (and presumably US, Europe too)! Only # 14 % or so of Americans believe in evolution and that Earth is # 4,6 billion years old, but that God had NOTHING to do with it, because HE does not exist. This is of course Dawkins' position. I myself for now am with the 36 %, so a Deist-Darwinist I suppose, and you?

I think it would be very instructive if we were able to find out from as many Muslims as we can whether they believe in old-fashioned creation + an Earth of 10.000 years old or whether they believe in evolution with an Earth that is 4,6 billion years old, ONLY with Allah orchestrating it all. The reason I say that is because I feel that the evidence against an only 10.000 old Earth & mankind is overwhelming and not humanly refutable anymore, for an intelligent, inquisitive, honest person. Would do you think???

One more proof that women particularly moslemahs are dumb, stupid and have their brains between their legs!

Hello Demsci

Thanks for sharing your views.

I still can't find a word to replace atheism/atheist. May be rational !

Yes, it will be interesting to know what Muslims think about the age of universe and contribution of Allah. I have just two individual views of Muslims.

(1) A teacher from an Arab country told me that she teaches Darwin's Theory but has instructions to ADD after her lecture "as we are Muslims, we believe that we are the descendants of Adam and Eve."

(2) Another lecturer from Pakistan says, "I teach Darwin's theory as it is. I don't add Islamic belief while teaching science."

About Creation:

According to Hindu calendar, the universe is 4.3 billion year old [Carl Sagan & George Gamow] which is closest to the observations of the scientists who fix the time to 4.6 billion years.

The same Hindu thinkers expressed their perception about Creation. I quote the relevant verses here below:

-----------
The Creation Hymn of Rig Veda

There was neither non-existence nor existence then.
There was neither the realm of space nor the sky which is beyond.
What stirred?
Where?
In whose protection?
Was there water, bottlemlessly deep?

There was neither death nor immortality then.
There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day.
That One breathed, windless, by its own impulse.
Other than that there was nothing beyond.

Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning,
with no distinguishing sign, all this was water.
The life force that was covered with emptiness,
that One arose through the power of heat.

Desire came upon that One in the beginning,
that was the first seed of mind.
Poets seeking in their heart with wisdom
found the bond of existence and non-existence.

Their cord was extended across.
Was there below?
Was there above?
There were seed-placers, there were powers.
There was impulse beneath, there was giving forth above.

Who really knows?
Who will here proclaim it?
Whence was it produced?
Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?

Whence this creation has arisen
– perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not –
the One who looks down on it,
in the highest heaven, only He knows
or perhaps He does not know.

----------

The questions raised by the writer[s] of those verses, remain unanswered to date in spite of many religious beliefs, theories and ideologies.

On GOD

Existence of GOD remains just an idea. No believer describes GOD as an existent. The believers attribute certain properties to GOD which, in their enthusiasm, are so exotic that they make a mockery of themselves. Some of the attributes of this GOD are -- omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent [Allah is not as it may imply that Allah is present in excreta too! ] and all merciful. All these attributes, though not found in man, but they are self-contradictory. Interestingly, according to believers, GOD exists without any physical properties!

The only probable and plausible answers that we can get about GOD and Creation are from the system of acquiring verifiable knowledge that is science; and so far there is none.

I hope that answers your question.

By the way does this stupid muslimah( superfluous actually to say stupid muslimah) know that a woman, a donkey and dog and farting all anull the prayers? Fart and a woman? Woman with half intelligence? women in majority in hell? These pearls are there for all to read and digest in qrand.

Oh by the way there are quite a few unmarried sodi girls who get pregnant mysteriously! They come for abortion and it's called menstrual regulation! Missed period is a common affair! Or should I say missed period is routine! Many sodi men( In my estimate 60% or above have sexually transmitted disease and HIV is rampant.The muslimah has never been bonked I guess by sodis!

Faiza is living in fool's paradise when she says dere is no crime in saudi am frm Bahrain A neighbpur country of KSA.... 1st of all dere are so many rape incidents in KSA but girls are not reporting as QAZI(jugde) will ask for 4 witness and offcourse dey shall not b able to present 4 witness as no 1 will rape a girl infront of 4 witness ..and if she will not present 4 witness she her sself will b arrested as it will b thought dat she commit adultury... and 2nd tere are so many cases of incest but no1 report..... tere are so many child molesting cases .... saudi arab hving a large population of gays as well and u know in BAHrain if any boy is hanging outwid saudi he is suspected of being a gay.... As Bahrain saudi is neighbour country so dere is lots of travelling btw saudi and bahrain.... saudi gals when come bahrain take off tere abaya wear mini skirts and hang around wid boys and saudis are also v notorius for dere drinking habit

Many expatriates may initially feel that social customs and laws encourage homosexuality in KSA. Unmarried women and families are generally kept separate from single men as much as possible, and dating is generally seen as being taboo, if not immoral. An opposite sex couples may be harassed if they demonstrate affection in public and it is not uncommon to see heterosexual men expressing affection toward each other in public (e.g. kissing on the cheeks or holding hands.)

As i live in bahrain and experienced my saudi ppl i hve noticed 1 thing dat dey are living in a society of hypocrites ..... and ya i forgot 2 mention 1 more thing dat in saudi arabia a 1 day old girl can forcely b married to any man of any age...its legal dere bcoz mohmmad did it so as a followers of mohammad dey can do it as its absolutely halal in islam( is dis u called a woman right?)

Miss Faiza,

When you say that in Islam women have full rights as men , and they are treated with respect and honor, really ???!!!,

Please read the entire review of this movie ( link to it given below ), and the passage from the New Testaments. Compare the two, think and meditate about them, and see IF YOU WERE THIS WOMAN, which treatment you would have preferred. By which law would you have wanted to be judged. Which woman was treated with compassion.

These are not something I made up. They happen on regular basis under Islamic Constitution, which is based on Qur’an, Hadith, and are interpreted by the TOP experts of the religion such as the Ayatollahs, Muftis, Imams, who teach and nurture the muslim communities.

1 ) The case of first Woman

http://movies.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/movies/26stoning.html

2 ) The case of Second Woman

JOHN 8

But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

“No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
==========
The first woman was innocent and wrongly accused by her lustful husband to be adulterous and was stoned to death. The second woman was caught in the actual act of adultery and was forgiven and set free to live.
===========
By the way, this is the only time in the Bible that Jesus was seen writing. While Dr. Sina in one of his writing called it ” doodling “, from the tone of scripture it seems that Jesus was writing the “sins” of those accusing this woman and had come to stone her. He was writing which one of them , for example, had slept with this very same woman. Who had cheated on his neighbor. who had stolen. who had lied. Jesus knew what was in their hearts and being . He condemned them by naming every sin they had committed, and wrote it down so the others could see. That's why without a peep
they dropped their stones and walked away in shame.
===========

Kokamal:
The Rig veda creation hymn is fascinating, I particularly like stanzas 1 and 2.
You said "According to Hindu calendar, the universe is 4.3 billion year old".
I read on Bhakti-yoga-meditation.com that the Vedic calculation of the age of the Earth was 155.5 trillion years, about 36 000 times as old as the age of the Universe you gave.
And other sources give other figures (1.97B, 8.64B).
Which is correct?
Also, I have to correct you: modern science has derived the age of the Universe as 13.5-14 Billion years. The age of the Earth is ~4.5 Billion years (which is a fair match for your quote of 4.3B).

Annie:
Thank you for your post.
It's nice to have first-hand witness to the nature of Saudia Arabia.

Annie88,

That came in handy, your testimony and opinion about Saudi Arabia. You see, it was claimed by a Muslim her that KSA was a good country, with a lack of crime, vices, faults, shortcomings that Western countries and India were suffering from much more, according to him. And lacking knowledge about KSA that was hard to refute. Now we can rely on you a bit for refuting that claim. I only could answer that there simply were no reliable statistics about KSA. So thanks.

Although I already did know a little about KSA through the novels about Sultana from Jean Sasson.

jonc

Thanks for the correction. Your figures are correct.

I gave full text of rig-ved verse so as not appear to be hiding something.

Strangely, my post was in reply to questions raised by Demsci.
Demsci hasn't even cared to acknowledge!

Hi, Kokamal,

I like it very much to acknowledge your post. But I also need time to consider what is written. The Rig Veda creation myth wasn't easy to understand, then I felt I couldn't say much constructive in response to it. I just read it and let it sink in. I honestly do not know how to respond to it, other than that I liked it. I always liked India and Hindu culture. There are many Hindustan people in Holland and they blend in perfectly.

Also I love to read Deepak Chopra (American Indian Indian), who by the way is coming to Amsterdam on 25 september, speaking in the RAI-convention centre. I already went once to him on such an occasion and was for # 4 hours "mesmerised" by what the guy had to say, got his autograph and looked him in the eye.

But recently he disappointed me greatly by involving himself in politics and taking a stance against so called "hatred against Islam". It is in myminddroppings website from an Indian Indian guy in America.

But anyway, I am sorry that I did not react to you, but this website is soooooo big and I always browse everything. And I guess it is much the same with other visitors, because many do not respond to my messages and I thought it was OK, due to sheer volume of this website and time-pressure.

But Deepak Chopra said in an interview this week that it is great that people from all over the world now can and do communicate with each other through the Internet, facebook, twitter. And I am often still DELIGHTED to find on the internet such people as the people here, with the same interests and goals, whose posts I often admire and enjoy.

I remember you being in acrimonial discussion earlier this year and was much on your side then.

by the way; some scientists and science-devotees have coined the term "Brights" for rational atheist people.

I don't understand why you guys even bother to respond to her rantings. She is obviously someone who is mentally disturbed. Leave her alone and she will self destruct.. You can say what you want till the cows come home. She will not change.

Demsci

No worries. I mince no words. I preach no religion but talk to as many people as possible. I cannot be soft to believers or respect their religious beliefs, if they come with an attitude -- which they inevitably come up with.. especially Muslims.

Believe me, I have found some really good people here.

Let knowledge show us the right path.

My goodness ? a lie...

Miss Ramzan said ------"Have you heard about rape cases in saudi arabia
NO "

Saudi women also got raped,I dont know why she is lying like that...

Here is a source below of some saudi girl gets raped.
Poor woman has to suffer and go through all this because of somebody else crime :(

SOURCE :
http://incognito73.instablogs.com/entry/punishing-victims-saudi-gang-rap...

Saudi is treating women very bad.I have no idea why the hell some of those muslimahs saying Islam gives freedom.

So... 100 or 200 lashes and a jail prison for a women getting raped is freedom ?

Saudi arabia is good???? Who said that joke?? Here in my country we've got many muslim who think that SA is wrong and doesn't practice "real" islam. They boast that they know more about islam than the saudis. More and more muslim migrating to the west to seek better life, why don't they go to saudi arabia instead? Go to your "heaven" and live there forever. Walk the talk.

Moooo,

Agreed. Although I think there probably are sincere Muslims, who do really believe that KSA (Saudi Arabia) is wrong in its interpretation of Islam.

But, many of them sadly fail to then argue against Sharia and its' punitive measures (hand cutting for theft, lashings for adultery/fornication etc.).

However there are many who cimply use this as a form of apologetic approach to meeting criticism. I can not help but wonder what a grave impact it would have on KSA and the current day sharia if the former group united and protested vehemently and zealously against KSA, bombarinding its embassies with protests, petitions, mass demonstrations in the streets in every capital around the world, refusing the pilgrim trip until the system changes.

Sadly such zealous protests are reserved for "real" issues namely when people write anti-islamic books, islamcritical books, or just make drawings/cartoons of bearded men. Because afterall paper counters more than human life (of the many women and men who fell victim to the Saudi Sharia, and the Nigerian Sharia, and the Afghan Sharia, and the Iranian Sharia). KSA is probably not far off their interpretation of Islam in most cases.

But then again Faiza Ramzan does not live in KSA. So easy for her to talk.

After miss Ramzan gets married, her Islamist husband beats the hell out of her. Appearing in TV, her face is full of injuries - black eyes, swelling cheeks, two front teeth missing and yet she denies she was beaten by her husband. She defends the right of her husband to beat her because her unholy books give her husband the right t beat her. She swears that her husband only used a feather to beat her and after the beating, her belief grows stronger. Remember the sadist Mo hit his child bride Aisha and Aisha narrated that it caused her much pain. The hand of a warrior is very strong and Mo hit a child.

In this earthly life, ms Ramzan can at least have 1/4 of her husband but in the Garden, her husband will have 72 houris and 28 gelamens and ms Ramzan can only look in envy but Mo saw many much more women in hell and ms Ramzan has a 90% chance that she will be in the Islamic hell where she will be tormented without pause but still manage to find time to eat foul pus and if she can find time to eat foul pus, I am sure she can also fine time to have sex with the kafirs, possible on the 7th level.