Minority groups on the Indian subcontinent
Submitted by William Gomes on Mon, 10/05/2009 - 04:47
Printer-friendly version
Send to friend
PDF versionBy William Gomes
For centuries, ethnic and religious minorities have been living lives of suffering on the South Asian subcontinent, in the countries of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, and Bhutan. Minorities are not created by God, but are created by political systems. Before going any further, let us look at the reason why minorities were produced in the region. If you go to India or Pakistan or some other part of the South Asian subcontinent, you will see similar kinds of minorities. In a liberal democracy, we cannot deny minority rights, yet we have failed to protect the minorities from oppression and suppression.
In Europe, minorities were produced by lengthy religious and national wars. There was a need to protect minorities from oppression in Europe, and so there eventually came to be regional guarantees and a charter of human rights, which ensure minority rights.
During colonial rule by the British, the question of minority rights, which had been struggled with in Europe for more than 200 years, reemerged on the Indian subcontinent in a way unique to the Indian situation. The British reinforced the distinct identities of the various ethnic, religious, cultural and linguistic groups in nearly all of the countries of the Subcontinent. The British clearly categorized the identities of these groups in their census and in the manuals for their administrators.
The Partition of India saw India come out from under British rule, which had been established in the mid-eighteenth century. The division of the country into India and Pakistan led the Indian people into one of the great tragedies in human history. Mohandas Gandhi opposed the division of India along the lines of religion, saying, “My whole soul rebels against the idea that Hinduism and Islam represent two antagonistic cultures and doctrines. To assent to such a doctrine is, for me, a denial of God.”
Law and order completely broke down; many died in riots, massacres, or just from the hardships of their flights to safety. What ensued was one of the largest migrations in recorded history. According to Richard Symonds, "At the l owest estimate, half a million people perished and twelve million became homeless."
A huge population exchange occurred between the two newly-formed states of Pakistan and India. In the aftermath of partition, about 14.5 million people crossed the borders; 7,226,000 Muslims went to Pakistan from India, while 7,249,000 Hindus and Sikhs moved to India from Pakistan. Part of the British scheme to “divide and rule” was ultimately successful; they successfully divided the people who had previously stood united against them.
The legacy of hatred can be seen wherever the British Union Flag flies, from hatred among Hindus, Muslims and Christians in the name of religion, to politics as a force that still divides us. Every day, we are defining a new type of minority. The division continued when, in 1971, an armed conflict pitting West Pakistan against East Pakistan gave birth to a new nation, the independent nation of Bangladesh.
The countries of the South Asian subcontinent, which formerly had colonial, patriarchal state structures and now have new models of governance, are failing to accommodate diversity. In the centralized state structures of most governments, they have failed to include minority groups effectively in the state machinery. Bangladesh and Pakistan are shining examples of this; in Pakistan, from Iskandar Mirza to Asif Ali Zardari or from Liaquat Ali Khan to Yousaf Raza Gillani, not a single religious minority person has been elected president or prime minister of Pakistan for more than20five decades. On the other hand, in Bangladesh, the suppressed religious and ethnic minorities have never had one of their own as president or prime minister of Bangladesh; from Sheikh Mujibur Rahman to Zillur Rahman or Tajuddin Ahmad to Sheikh Hasina Wazed, the majority has always triumphed over the last four decades.
More than half a century after independence, the countries of the Indian subcontinent are still struggling to resolve majority-minority issues, which are feeding long-running conflicts around the borders and are affecting regional and global security. Whether the Gujarat riot in India in 2002 or the post-election violence in Bangladesh in 1996 and 2001 or any recent attack on Christians in Pakistan, minority issues cause undesirable suffering and extend hatred and extremism all across the world, across all borders and boundaries.
William Nicholas Gomes is a renowned Human Rights worker, film
Director and freelance Journalist of Bangladesh. He can be reached by
email at cda.exe@gmail.com
What were the Hindus doing
What were the Hindus doing instead of organising themselves / They are a good majority in the Indian sub-continent.
The Hindus are the most lazy, intellectually bankrupt people in the world. They may shine in studies, but they lack commonsense solutions. They are people of great inertia. Getting milk out of a bull is easier than getting a Hindu to fight.
Add to this is their own religion which teaches universalism. Universalism is alright, but commonsense says that universalism is to be extended to those who are fit for it, which means islam does not deserve that respect. But that commonsense view is lost upon the Hindus.
Even now, after 1200 years of persecution at the hands of muslims / christians, the Hindus have still not learnt their lessons.
No prayers for a suicidal people. They deserve all that is happening to them.
William, some
William, some corrections.
Before the advent of British, there were many Hindu and Muslim rulers in India. Some at peace and some at logger heads. Numerous groups like Mongols (Corrupted Mughals) and Afghans invaded India. Mughals for some reason made India their home. But some of the invaders like Ahmad shah abdali and Nadir Shah killed thousands of Hindus. Some of the gory stories about skulls being piled up and unnecessary bloodshed still linger down in Hindu memories. Aurangzeb one of the Mughals for some reasons also was intolerant towards his Hindu subjects. But overall the Indian Muslims and Hindus shared a common heritage. They were at peace towards each other.
British were dacoits. They were not against Hindus or Muslims. They were in India for robbing and robbing they did. And anything, anyone who aided them as robbers was welcome. Although they kept looting they also accidentally gave India the form of nation state. They realised that Hindus and Muslims can not live together. India and Pakistan was infact good because Muslims inherently can not accept cosmopolitan societies. There was resurgence in Hindu nationalism and the Muslims would not take a dime for that.
Nehru accidentally was India's first Prime minister. He made the word Hindu equal to being a communalist while he encouraged Muslims to be Muslims. This gave birth to a flawed logic where anyone who supported Muslims was secular and anyone who raised a question about Islamic fundamentalism was a communalist. Nehru’s idea to check mate Hindu nationalism saw it emerging after 30 years of his death.
All said, Muslims are currently seen with very suspicious eyes. Quite a lot of them are poor and not doing well. They should not be harmed. Many of the Hindu nationalists need to understand that Islam and not Muslims is to blame for their condition. Harming the symptom only deepens their prejudices. Their real enemy is Islam which makes them to see Hindus as different. The partition of India has deepened mistrust amongst the Hindus who allowed Muslims to stay back in India while their brothers were destroyed in the Muslim states.
In terms of India being pitted against Bangladesh and Pakistan is quite laughable if not blasphemous. I am an ex Muslim and can give you an unbiased view. Christians, Jains, Sikhs, Parsis and even Jews have lived safely since many centuries in India. India even has had Muslim and Minority head of states. The top 3 leading posts currently are Sikh, Christian and Muslim in India.
So why communal riots in India? I do not want to consider Pakistan or Bangladesh who have virtually become theocratic states and have no value for Human life. (Leave Minorities no one is safe in these countries) In India Muslims have traditionally been viewed with lenses of Ahmad shah abdali, Nadir Shah, Ghazavi, Ghouri, Aurangzeb and Tughlaks. All these rulers have created a blood thirsty history against Hindus. The type of bloodshed Hindus have seen has not been done against any community in history. Not even Jews. The Holocaust will be put to shame if you just pick some of India's history. But and there is a strong but traditionally Indian Muslims have lived in peace with Hindus. Except some of the remnants of political Islamists Muslims are mostly like Hindus in many provinces in India. As said previously they should not be harmed because political Islamists actually get more converts in case of prejudiced Muslims. They are victims of Islam. They should not be made further victims.
In case of Christians they have lived completely peacefully in India. The current riots in Orissa can more be labelled as Tribal warfare. There are Hindu and Christian Missionaries competing amongst them. One of the Hindu Missionaries was found dead which triggered this attack. However the Christians are generally well respected. The current political formation is headed by a catholic lady.
The minorities in India are far better than Blacks in US or minorities in any Muslim country or even some cases in Europe and west. Muslims add an exception here because of historical reasons. But they still are far better off. Even better off than Pakistan. Many Pakistanis pass themselves on as Indians. Many of the Muslims have been heads amongst top organisations in India. Same is the case of people who attack Hinduism based on casteism. While the fact that a good idea has gone wrong can not be ignored the painting of white and black is also completely wrong. The caste system got corrupted because of foreign invasions and the dynamics of the society coming to a halt. A person was classified according to his qualities and was given a certain work to perform. His generations could change roles and positions. But somewhere down the line foreign invasions stopped this dynamics and people chose the role they were performing. Reforms initiated by Buddhism and Sikhism and later by Hindu revivalist movements such as Arya Samaj completely did away with casteism.
As a country India has equal laws for all and in many cases Christians and Muslims have certain benefits which Hindus do not have. The attack on India based on casteism and communal riots are not fairly assessed but because of few cases can not be ignored. Overall your article mixes India with Pakistan and is not correct. It needs to be a separate case study.
Overall Hindu Nationalists
Overall Hindu Nationalists and their idea of cultural nationalism is good but they should not allow the few extreme right lunatics to Hijack their agenda. This has happened in most countries. Once you do one mistake you are then branded as completely wrong. A good idea once again should not turn bad at all.
The caste system was based on
The caste system was based on color and that color was given the worst jobs. It is wrong to overlook the Africans who were brought to India by Muslims as slaves and untouchables were already the low class and the dark indians. when ther darker africnas came it messed up the caste. Chidren of these people are still suffering today in India.
Blacks in Americas did suffer but nowhere but in America do you have a Oprah or Michele Obama. America has been here since 1619, but India for thousands of years. why the racism toward dark skinned people and the Islam world is just as guilty. The Christians fought a civil war in 1865 to end slavery in America and 500000 white men died freeing black slaves. When did islam or hinduism do that.
Hinduism-caste system all dark skinned indians
Islam-black faces are cursed-quran 3:106
72 big breasted white women and 28 white boys for martyrs
christians 1 tim 1:6-10 slavery is wrong equal in sin as is sodomy for Christians
Is it the same god, if so he is insane.
Hope christians in India and
Hope christians in India and other places cooperate with hindus to convert muslims. unfortunately christians are cooperating with muslims to convert hindus.
Hindus dont care much about religion and conversion, christians should know that christians can reach all post and get power in hindu india, but never in muslim area. Sonia Gandhi a catholic is the most powerful woman in India. 5 chief ministers are christians, in power they are more than 20 % while they constitute hardly 2-3 % population.
Unfortunately few christian groups are working with muslims and maoists and threaten hindus.
raisin head, I agree, the
raisin head,
I agree, the Indian media and many Indians are quick to accuse others of racism,however they ignore their racist caste system and the oppression of "tribal" minorities. Generations of Indians cannot escape from poverty because of their caste(ie skin color). Such hypocrites.
Wiliam Gomes,
very informative ,this should be reported widely.
Raisin Head, you are true to
Raisin Head, you are true to your name. There is nothing like racism on dark-skinned people in India. Krishna, the God revered by all the people in India, was DARK in colour. Vedavyas, the best of all sages, was dark-skinned. The colour differentiation lies only in your Raisin Head. I repeat humanity has only four classes : Intellectual (Pundit), Warrior (Kshatriya), Business (Vaishya), and Labour (Sudra). For the prosperity of any society, these 4 classes should exist and will exist. That is what our scriptures describe and NOT castes. If your Raisin Head thinks like a lunatic medieval mind, that is not my problem at all. Go ask your Christ to get some medicine.
Let me remind you Christians never fought against slavery. Open your Old testament and you will see horrors of slavery in it. If Christians are to fight against slavery, then they are going against their God's commandment.
Raisin Head, here are some
Raisin Head, here are some great verses from the Bible to support slavery. Read them and memorize them tonight for a reading in the Church. Why should Christians fight against slavery? The people who fought against slavery in America were the freedom lovers and NOT Christians.
• When a man "sells" his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11)
Here are supporting verses from Islam:
•It is not for a believer to kill a believer unless (it be) by mistake. He who hath killed a believer by mistake must set free a believing slave, and pay the blood-money to the family of the slain, unless they remit it as a charity. If he (the victim) be of a people hostile unto you, and he is a believer, then (the penance is) to set free a believing slave. And if he cometh of a folk between whom and you there is a covenant, then the blood-money must be paid unto his folk and (also) a believing slave must be set free. And whoso hath not the wherewithal must fast two consecutive months. A penance from Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise. (Quran 4.92)
•Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favors from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means) praise be to Allah. But most of them understand not. (Quran 16.75)
Now I have proven that Christianity = Islam in Slavery...... You can't refute it, can you?
wagamama, No racism in
wagamama,
No racism in India,really? What about the preference on the marriage market for brides and bridegrooms with "light skin" Why are the lowest paid jobs in India performed by those with the darkest skin?
Humanity has no classes,the caste system is an invention by the ruling class to oppress others and condemn them to generations of servitude,it was never sanctioned by any "gods".
"For the prosperity of any society,these 4 classes should exist and will exist",nonsense. Western societies are far more prosperous than India and have been so for generations,they have far less class divisions and Japan is even less differentiated.
Rocky, the rice-bag convert,
Rocky, the rice-bag convert, who says the lowest paid jobs in India are performed by dark skineed? What about North India where most of the people are light-skinned (due to weather conditions)? India has been under the vicious attack from Muslims for more than 1000 yrs. It got independence from England only 60 yrs ago. How can you expect it to become all-prosperous as if by a magic. Even then it is going to be a developed nation soon.
Challenge: Show me a country in the west or east where these 4 classes do not exist or have not existed. Don't talk like a rabid medieval pastor LOL
Rocky, you are telling as if
Rocky, you are telling as if a white Catholic American is ready to marry a Somalian black Christian! Protestants won't marry Catholics. These two sects do not pray with Mormons. These three do not attend prayers with Pentacostals. Forget about marriages; they do not even see eye to eye. However, I am ready to admit that the caste system is bad and it is a phenomena of the last 1000 yrs or so. A lot of reformations have taken place in the last 150 yr or so. Now, many intercaste marriages are happening. You will never see castes in our scriptures. On the other hand you will only find four classes depending on one's ability to serve society and NOT by birth. You have got to learn a lot, my boy!
christians 1 tim 1:6-10
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+1&version=YLT
1 Timothy 1
8 and we have known that the law [is] good, if any one may use it lawfully;
9 having known this, that for a righteous man law is not set, but for lawless and insubordinate persons, ungodly and sinners, impious and profane, parricides and matricides, men-slayers,
10 whoremongers, sodomites, men-stealers, liars, perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that to sound doctrine is adverse,
Look at this liar. There is no mention of slavery anywhere. It mentions of people who ILLEGALLY steal men as slaves and DOES NOT forbid LEGAL SLAVERY as per old testament. No wonder this jsus or any of the writers of NT condemn slavery anywhere, for they worship a malevolent jehovah who ordained slavery. However even after being exposed for lying raisin head wants to fool the gullible. The following commentary shows this is true.
No racism in India,really?
That is their individual preferences. So how does this prove racism? Even a black Indian prefers a light skinned Indian. Is the black Indian racist then as per your logic?
Most Indians are black and so you find many black Indians are working in low paid jobs as do in high paid jobs as well.
One is paid low or high in India according to their qualifications and skills or are you claiming these low paid black Indians are all Ph.Ds?
You are making a comment as though every light skinned Indian is highly paid. This does NOT prove anything, but for the fact that you are a desperate xian evangelist who will claim anything.
Whether you like it or not, classes exist everywhere. It is natural. You have rulers in India or Europe or China or even Japan. Conflict between haves and have nots will be perpetual and exploitation is the norm of all societies. India is NO different.
Unless every human being becomes self-less perfect beings, this will continue until humanity ends.
None of these prove anything is wrong with Hinduism. If you want a serious debate on Varna system, you have to prove from Hindu scriptures that they prescribe exploitation and exploitation is the fundamental principle behind Varna system. If you cannot do that, it is better that you shut up.
Unilke primitive bible (both NT and OT) which prescribes slavery, bigotry, kidnapping women for sex and hatred for others (non-believers), authentic Hindu scriptures are way too advanced and civilized.
Even your western society has its own rulers, intellectuals, business class and ordinary workers. There are the Bushes and powerful elites groomed to be rulers, there are Rockerfellers and others who traditionally control the business world etc etc.
About 1% in USA owns a third of private wealth.
So you think.... There are powerful business communities and politicians here in USA who do not let others into their clique.
In Japan you still have the class system, you are just NOT aware of it. It has a history of wars between warriors and farmers who form two class systems.
I will say racism exists in
I will say racism exists in every society, every individual. Indian society is not different.
The caste system in India finds roots amongst the Muslims by the name of Ajlafs and Ashrafs. Ashrafs being the Afghans, Arabs, Turks, Higher caste people and Ajlafs being all the other lower caste people.
The caste system in India finds roots amongst the Christians and everywhere the higher caste christians and lower caste christians exist.
This is a social issue. You can find the caste system in indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand etc where the caste dynamics is completely different. The so called lower castes are respected in their own class of work.
In India invasion and the ego of being born in the caste systems destroyed the real meanings. So even within lower castes there are higher castes and lower castes.
Arya Samaj was a powerful movement which failed half way because of Nehru. The tablighi movement which is one of the biggest threats to the sane world now was a direct fall out of the Arya Samaj movement.
Had the shuddhi movement finished in achieveing what it wanted there would never have been an afghanistan or pakistan and no such troubles around the globe. The south asian muslim immigrants would never have been lawless. Like their other counterparts would have been respected and integrated in the respective societies. Somewhere the British are also to blame for failure of Shuddhi movement.
wagamama, "North india where
wagamama,
"North india where most of the people are light skinned( due to weather conditions)" I thought the people in North India were descendants of Bronze Age invaders ( they speak Indo-European languages). As to your challenge, the real test is the mobility between classes, and the caste system doesn't allow much, does it?
Thanks for admitting the caste system is bad,let's hope it disappears.
Kamran,
"I will say racism exists in every society,every individual.." Exactly, that's the point I've been trying to make.
My complaint is about hypocrisy and double standards, particularly claims that only Westerners are racists or to blame for all developing countries' problems.
continuum,
Here's a thought experiment for you,if Whites/Caucasians/Westerners expressed a preference for lighter skinned people it would be regarded as racism ,see the double standard?
Rocky, You
Rocky,
You couldn't provide verses from scriptures that talk about casteism. You goofed up by equating caste with class. To me that is stupidity beyond description. Think before you write!
Rocky, how stupid and
Rocky, how stupid and illiterate you are to believe in the Aryan invasion theory. Have you studied the recent genetic mapping of North/South/East/West/Central Indians? You are telling as if your great great grandpa took in charge of the Bronze age invading army! Before believing in such asinine arguments, go to a library to get some info on the genetic mapping of Indians.
I thought the people in North
This is a mythology created by European Christian missionaries cum academicians of colonial times. There is no evidence for these preposterous claims made by racist 19th century Europeans.
Lack of mobility does NOT prove racism necessarily. Unless you show exploitation is the reason for this lack of mobility you have NO point at all.
There are Brahmins as black as Africans both in North and South and others who are more light skinned than Brahmins. It has nothing to do with racism or even preventing access to higher education etc.
It is rather a purely religious phenomenon made ONLY for religious purposes where people are groomed from childhood to be priests, warriors etc.. Being a priest is NOT lucrative job anyway where these priests fast 2-3 days a week for lack of money. This has been the case in ancient and medieval India and even in these modern times.
In ancient days, people were groomed from birth and made suitable for specific jobs. Mostly children follow what parents did which is natural. Thus warriors were trained from birth and became Kshatriyas or warriors, and so did business class and workers. The principle of class system was to do their respective duties without any selfish motives. The lack of mobility did NOT prevent education or other things for any person.
There have been exceptions in case where adopted orphans follow adopted parents profession (example is the story of Karna in Mahabharatha). So this is hardly racism. This structure of the society gave stability to that society.
I can prove from Hindu scriptures that superiority or inferiority was NOT the basis of Varna system. However in practice things have deteriorated.
Indians are NOT perfect, but to blame this as racism is tantamount to total ignorance and always has an agenda behind it from mostly Christian missionaries of the West. I wonder why?
Arya Samaj is at best regarded as a unorthodox movement among most Hindus. It is NOT mainstream.
It depends on where the preference is shown. If it is your marriage, it is your private issue.
However it is well known that Whites/Caucasians/Westerners express their preference to lighter skin in the arena of politics, jobs, and even education in some places.
This IS RACISM.
wagamama, Please be civil
wagamama,
Please be civil and avoid ad hominem arguments, I haven't been rude to you. Caste is simply a rigid form of the class system,you will come to realise that in time.
Raguraman,
Is there a single problem in Indian society that Indians can't blame Westerners for,that's racism. Why don't Indians reject Western science,industrial organization and democracy?The fact that people in Northern India speak Indo-European languages is hardly a myth, it's a scientific fact. Oh,so, the Caste system is purely religious,that hardly justifies it . It is not natural for children to follow their parents' occupations, advanced societies are breaking out of this pattern,they are not crippled by religious justifications for class oppression. I'm sure lower caste Indians are just delighted with their positions in society.
I hope one day you both see the double standards in your attitudes and arguments and stop blaming Westerners for India's problems,after all many of these problems existed before the first British Imperialist set foot on Indian soil.
Rocky says: Caste is simply a
Rocky says: Caste is simply a rigid form of the class system,you will come to realise that in time.
Wagamama says: Nopes, caste is nowhere related to class system. Today we can see a person born in a Brahmin family practising as a businessman (eg Narayan Murthy of Infosys). Similarly, a person born in a labour-class family becoming a warrior (eg Shivaji Maharaj). This is class system for you. Depending on your qualities and karma, you can choose the profession you want to and thus serve the society. There has been reformation on how to nullify the caste system. This is bringing the unity amongst Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists, and Pharsees to fight the manace of two Ibrahamic faiths.
Well buddy, when can I see Protestants and Catholics praying together? Or when can I see a Mormon getting married to a Seventh Day adventist? Each caste/sect of Christianity accuses other castes or sects as heretics. Don't you know the Pope called the Protestants heretics? In Hinduism/Buddhism we don't call other practitioner a heretic. I have seen many people married into different castes. However, I haven't seen a practising Catholic marrying a Protestant or a Mormon. Why is that so mate?
I had to call you ignorant because you, despite knowing how to read English, have not bothered to read the recent findings of genetic mapping of Indians. However, you are quick to blabber your colonial masters' dodgy Aryan Invasion Theory. My taunts on you will serve to improve your knowledge. "You will come to realise that in time."
Take it easy champ!
Sir Rocky,
Sir Rocky,
Muslims call me a Kuffr; Christians call me a Heathen. Muslims say that on the day of judgement Allah sends all kuffrs to hell-fire. Christians say on the day of judgement Christ will admit those who believe him to HEAVEN and the heathens/pagans like me to hell-fire.
Can you tell me how YOUR God created so much of caste system....errrr... I would call it Binga-Bonga system.... in his scripture. This is something more than descrimination, isn't it, Champ? How will you get rid of "Binga-Bonga system" from your God's head or your head?
This is the two-cent question from a HEATHEN/PAGAN/KUFFR
How will you tackle this Binga-Bonga system, Mr Rocky?
Post script: I have read Bible/Quran. If you deny this I can quote verses for digestion!
Wagamama, there is one thing
Wagamama, there is one thing I will say. Christianity has moved away ages from strict interpretation of their verses. In India this might not be true. In West there are only certain groups or churches who are very enthusiastic about painting other religions black and spreading the gospel(Allthough they are there) but by large the Christians respect Jesus and put their religious sleeves only to believe in God. They do not go about killing or even forcing other people to convert. People are good and culturally advanced.
Islam can't. It can't change, It can't modernise. All it an do probably is justify. So you will find Islamic scholars at pains and large writing conspiracies or justifying what Mohammed said and did. Islamic societies by and large are extremists. Even a normal western educated Muslim will be fundamentalist if not extremist.
Hinduism has reformed many times in ages. However, the social divide in certain states and rural areas has failed to spread reformed Hinudism. One of the reasons also has been the Congress policies Under Nehru and later who never wanted a Hindu Reform or Hindus getting Ummahfied like Muslims or Christians. They were very much like the Church or Islamic preachers who wanted Hindus to turn atheists.
The current Hindu nationalists are rubbish to say the least. They do not want to accept reformed Hinudism or to tackle questions where they find themselves on a weak footing like casteism or idol worship etc. I have read hinudism after my leaving Islam and I realised that it was the vast pol of knowledge that failed Islamic invaders to convert Hindus. Unfortunately the social reformers have died and there is a Bunch of lunatics who believe that following the way of Islamists can defend them from Islamists. This failed utterly. Killing a few Muslims because they rioted and killed Hindus failed to drive the lesson. It infact strengthened the feeling of many muslims that they were victims. It also uncallously brought the global jihad on doorsteps of India. Breaking a mosque or following tit for tat is doomed for failure specially with Muslims. Christians are even better organised and also are well respected in India. Even though terrorism was a big issue if the congress party returned home to power in India was because Hindus were aghasted by Hindu right wings attacking Christians.
At best Hindu nationalism currently is a reactionary force. It needs to delve deeper into Reforms and also not to get angry and follow in footsteps of their opponent islamists.
The concept of Idol worship:-
The concept of Idol worship:- If God is infinite then its forms are also infinite. It can be in an ocean or it can be in a small pool. It can be the universe or it can be the moon. It can have a form or it can be formless. The number of idols representing either various deities who came to earth in human form or representing a certain form of power still points to the powerful formless advaita in background.
The Concept Of Caste:- Qualities and Deeds of a person divides him into a certain group. ( Note there is no Birth) Vasudev katumbakam which means that the whole world is the home. All humanity is equal.
The purpose of Hinduism is to form your own path. Seek rather than believe. Be Love rather than to Love or get loved. Be God rather than to believe God.
Kamran, I am impressed with
Kamran, I am impressed with you. Can we meet? I reside in Mumbai.
Is there a single problem in
??? Really! Where did I blame Westerners for Indian problems?
Why should Indians reject anything positive?
So? The entire Aryan Invasion is based on linguistics. The problem is there is NOT one piece of archaeological evidence or evidence from literature anywhere that any kind of invasion took place. Even genetics shows that Indian genes among forward castes are locally evolved and has no connection to European ones.
Hence the idea of invasion or even migration is a bogus one created and nurtured by racist Europeans during colonial times and also presently despite the bogus theory being rejected by academia today.
Indian Varna system has nothing to do with the idea of caste system you have in your mind. It has nothing to do with modern day professions you see.
Ancient and medieval India did NOT have a caste cleaning public toilets. There were no public toilets in ancient or medieval India. This is a completely modern phenomenon. Similarly many professions which you see in modern era has no restrictions as per Varna system.
The problem with you xians is that you have a preset idea on caste system or class system of Europe and superimpose that idea on Indian Varna system. First get rid of this misconception and only then yuo can understand Indian Varna system properly in its setting.
Genes are acquired from parents and it is more likely that the child resembles parents in many ways. So its is natural for a son of businessman to have such tendencies and natural ability. There are always exceptions to the rule, but it is rare.
This shows you have NOT read anything from my post.
There is NO religious justifications for class oppression in Hinduism.
Oppression is NOT the basis of Varna system and I have already stated this. The basis of Varna system is to do ONE's duty fitting one's acquired nature (from parents and upbringing) without selfishness and as service to society in order to advance spiritually.
Doing work according to one's acquired nature (from parents and upbringing) without expecting any results for oneself elevates that person spiritually. This is the basis of Indian Varna system. There is NO place for exploitation as per religious rules when any kind of selfishness is regarded as harmful for himself and society in this system.
So your equating Indian Varna system to western class oppression is grossly wrong. Your entire premise starts with christian propaganda of 19th century racist Europeans who were bigoted christians in the guise of academicians. I can prove this is the case with quotes from max Muller and others.
This is irrelevant to the discussion whether Hindu scriptures and Indian Varna system in its original intended form prescribed exploitation as the basis.
As of yet, you have NOT shown this to be the case.
I have blamed anybody for Indian problems. The problems between different Indian tribes is their creation and I have admitted before that Indians are NOT perfect. The Varna system has degenerated into a tribal warfare for resources. This is completely a modern phenomenon.
However, telling truth about racist 19th century Europeans as to how they concocted racist theories like Aryan Invasion theory does NOT mean I am blaming British for Indian problems. I put the blame where it belongs and in this case it belongs to the over zealous racist, bigoted Christian missionaries who wanted to denigrate Hinduism by hook or crook through lying and creating false histories.
wagamama, Caste is simply a
Hardly....
Class system has exploitation and profit as the basis.
Indian Varna system has selfless work according to one's nature as the basis or fundamental principle of this system.
Although they seem identical in structure of society, the purpose of Indian Varna system is diametrically opposed to class system.
All said and done the current
All said and done the current caste system should be done away with for benefit of hindus.
Some posters here have made
Some posters here have made an assumption about me that's incorrect,I'm not a Christian, I am, in fact, an atheist., this gives me a different perspective from believers.However, I don't care what religion people follow as long as they behave in a civilised manner and don't attempt to coerce others to follow their religion.
I certainly agree that Islam is dangerous to our liberties because of its totalitarian nature and as far as I understand, one very positive aspect of Hinduism is that it doesn't proselytise,if only all religions were like that.
Buddy Rocky, I acknowledge
Buddy Rocky, I acknowledge that you are an atheist. I showed intellectual honesty in accepting that the caste system is wrong and the correct system is the class system, which exists in every part of the world. Till then you were going with great fire and enthusiasm in the discussion. However, when I brought up the 'Binga-Bonga system' from Christian and Islamic religions, instead of accepting the fallacy of Christ/Allah , you showed an escapist attitude by saying you are an atheist and so you can wash off your hands. Great try, but it will not work with me.
You just can't say you are atheist and find the exit. If you are sincere in your "atheistic" approach tell me about your opinion on
1. The 'Binga-Bonga' system, where on the judgement day Christ/Allah sends all heathens/kuffrs/pagans to everlasting burning hell-fire. Hey, what is the temperature of hell-fire?
2. Why no American/European or other western christians are marrying Somalian, Ugandan, Kenyan or other sincere Christians? Why Protestants don't marry Catholics or pentacostals or Mormons? Do you want to call it a 'dodgy-dodgy' system?
WAITING FOR YOUR REPLY ASAP
Sincerely,
Wagamama
Wagamama, I thought my
Wagamama,
I thought my opinion would be self-evident( you're trying to create a straw man,I didn't seek any exit) however if you require an explicit statement here it is-
Your-
Point (1)
the semitic religions( Christianity,Judaism and Islam) are in my opinion, complete nonsense,there is absolutely no evidence for the creator god of those religions and, because of the problem of theodicy, convincing evidence against the existence of the god of the Christians in particular.I don't believe anything written in those texts and that includes the "hellfire" nonsense. Clear?
Point(2)
I'll assume what you say is correct,but what are you claiming,that there are cultural and racial prejudices between Christians and perhaps even informal "castes",I don't deny this,my argument is against double standards.
As far as I understand it Buddhism, in its original doctrine, was the most sensible,or perhaps more accurately,the least ridiculous of all religions,since gods were regarded as irrelevant to human life.
I don't regard theology as a useful occupation for the human mind as there is no evidence that the supposed object/s of study even exist. Is that clear enough?
That's like a good boy,
That's like a good boy, Rocky. Thanks for being honest! You should have said that in the first place. Now go back to my previous posts on the stuff I have written reagarding class. Hindu scriptures mention only 4 classes (and NOT castes) based on one's ability to serve society. Every philanthropic individual fits himself/herself into the four classes: Intellectual, Warrior, Business, and Labor.
End of the discussion
wagamama, Please resist the
wagamama,
Please resist the urge to make ad hominem references and we'll make progress. I don't care what anyone's sacred text states I'm only interested in religious practice and its effects. I'm sure I'll have the opportunity to demolish your arguments again, on this site, some time in the future.
Rocky, you are welcome to
Rocky, you are welcome to engage in constructive arguments. As of now, you have ample of time to study the latest genetic mapping of Indians--that has debunked your pet "chumma" Aryan invasion theory. Good luck with your future "constructive" debates.
Wagamama
P.S: Chumma is an Indian slang for "kiss". Nothing horrible, champ!
wagamama, Per your advice, I
wagamama,
Per your advice, I have studied the latest genetic mapping of Indians and refer you to http://www.broadinstitute.org/news/1337 which refers to "two ancestral populations" in India and "Ancestral North Indians who are related to Western Eurasians."Western Eurasians"? hmm, "Europeans" in other words. I'm sure you'll tell me there's a special "Indian" way to interpret the data.
We're getting OT so,as a special courtesy,I'll let you have the last word.
This site doesn't appear to automatically create links,so you might have to type the URL.
Per your advice, I have
Hmmmm....
1. I can show you published papers from researchers which claim the opposite, that all Indian genetics evolved only locally. There is no complete consensus in research community regarding this.
2. Let us assume that the study is true, even then the study you quoted shows that ther eis no correspondence between caste differences and differences in genetic ancestry which nullifies or completely voids your claim that Indian Varna system is racism.
More papers on indigenous
More papers on indigenous origin of Indian upper castes which is published in the nature website.
nature.com/jhg/journal/v54/n1/full/jhg20082a.html
Journal of Human Genetics (2009) 54, 47–55; doi:10.1038/jhg.2008.2; published online 9 January 2009
The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1* substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system
Swarkar Sharma1,2,4, Ekta Rai1,2,4, Prithviraj Sharma1,3, Mamata Jena1, Shweta Singh1, Katayoon Darvishi1, Audesh K Bhat1, A J S Bhanwer2, Pramod Kumar Tiwari3 and Rameshwar N K Bamezai1
Abstract
Many major rival models of the origin of the Hindu caste system co-exist despite extensive studies, each with associated genetic evidences. One of the major factors that has still kept the origin of the Indian caste system obscure is the unresolved question of the origin of Y-haplogroup R1a1*, at times associated with a male-mediated major genetic influx from Central Asia or Eurasia, which has contributed to the higher castes in India. Y-haplogroup R1a1* has a widespread distribution and high frequency across Eurasia, Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent, with scanty reports of its ancestral (R*, R1* and R1a*) and derived lineages (R1a1a, R1a1b and R1a1c). To resolve these issues, we screened 621 Y-chromosomes (of Brahmins occupying the upper-most caste position and schedule castes/tribals occupying the lower-most positions) with 55 Y-chromosomal binary markers and seven Y-microsatellite markers and compiled an extensive dataset of 2809 Y-chromosomes (681 Brahmins, and 2128 tribals and schedule castes) for conclusions. A peculiar observation of the highest frequency (up to 72.22%) of Y-haplogroup R1a1* in Brahmins hinted at its presence as a founder lineage for this caste group. Further, observation of R1a1* in different tribal population groups, existence of Y-haplogroup R1a* in ancestors and extended phylogenetic analyses of the pooled dataset of 530 Indians, 224 Pakistanis and 276 Central Asians and Eurasians bearing the R1a1* haplogroup supported the autochthonous origin of R1a1 lineage in India and a tribal link to Indian Brahmins. However, it is important to discover novel Y-chromosomal binary marker(s) for a higher resolution of R1a1* and confirm the present conclusions.
Thank you Raghuraman for
Thank you Raghuraman for educating Rocky. Hey Rocky, I am sure you don't need anything better than a publication from Nature (the best scientific journal) and the Journal of Human genetics. I will go a little back in 2006 when the first DNA pool data on Indians was released. Mind you this is from the Centre for Indic studies, University of Massachusetts Dartmouth, where the first studies were made. Happy reading bloke.
I am attaching the link from the University website. http://www.umassd.edu/indic/press/origin_pr.cfm
Just in case you are not able to access the link, I hereby copy-paste the contents of the discovery.
University of Massachusetts Dartmouth, Center for Indic Studies
July 3, 2006
Press Release
Scientists Collide with Linguists to Assert Indigenous origin of Indian Civilization
Comprehensive population genetics data along with archeological and astronomical evidence presented at June 23-25, 2006 conference in Dartmouth, MA, overwhelmingly concluded that Indian civilization and its human population is indigenous.
In fact, the original people and culture within the Indian Subcontinent may even be a likely pool for the genetic, linguistic, and cultural origin of the most rest of the world, particularly Europe and Asia.
Leading evidences come from population genetics, which were presented by two leading researchers in the field, Dr. V. K. Kashyap, National Institute of Biologicals, India, and Dr. Peter Underhill of Stanford University in California. Their results generally contradict the notion Aryan invasion/migration theory for the origin of Indian civilization.
Underhill concluded "the spatial frequency distributions of both L1 frequency and variance levels show a spreading pattern emanating from India", referring to a Y chromosome marker. He, however, put several caveats before interpreting genetic data, including "Y-ancestry may not always reflect the ancestry of the rest of the genome"
Dr. Kashyap, on the other hand, with the most comprehensive set of genetic data was quite emphatic in his assertion that there is "no clear genetic evidence for an intrusion of Indo-Aryan people into India, [and] establishment of caste system and gene flow."
Michael Witzel, a Harvard linguist, who is known to lead the idea of Aryan Invasion/migration/influx theory in more recent times, continued to question genetic evidence on the basis that it does not provide the time resolution to explain events that may have been involved in Aryan presence in India.
Dr. Kashyap's reply was that even though the time resolution needs further work, the fact that there are clear and distinct differences in the gene pools of Indian population and those of Central Asian and European groups, the evidence nevertheless negates any Aryan invasion or migration into Indian Subcontinent.
Witzel though refused to present his own data and evidence for his theories despite being invited to do so was nevertheless present in the conference and raised many questions. Some of his commentaries questioning the credibility of scholars evoked sharp responses from other participants.
Rig Veda has been dated to 1,500 BC by those who use linguistics to claim its origin Aryans coming out of Central Asia and Europe. Archaeologist B.B. Lal and scientist and historian N.S. Rajaram disagreed with the position of linguists, in particular Witzel who claimed literary and linguistic evidence for the non-Indian origin of the Vedic civilization.
Dr. Narahari Achar, a physicist from University of Memphis clearly showed with astronomical analysis that the Mahabharata war in 3,067 BC, thus poking a major hole in the outside Aryan origin of Vedic people.
Interestingly, Witzel stated, for the first time to many in the audience, that he and his colleagues no longer subscribe to Aryan invasion theory.
Dr. Bal Ram Singh, Director, Center for Indic Studies at UMass Dartmouth, which organized the conference was appalled at the level of visceral feelings Witzel holds against some of the scholars in the field, but felt satisfied with the overall outcome of the conference.
"I am glad to see people who have been scholarly shooting at each other for about a decade are finally in one room, this is a progress", said Singh.
The conference was able to bring together in one room for the first time experts from genetics, archeology, physics, linguistics, anthropology, history, and philosophy. A proceedings of the conference is expected to come out soon, detailing various arguments on the origin of Indian civilization.
Rocky, I am not finished yet.
Rocky, I am not finished yet. I shall present astronomical and linguistic evidence through a book. Read this wonderful book by Srikanth Talageri: The Rigveda and the Avesta : The Final Evidence-- Aditya Prakashan, 2008, xxxviii, 380 p, figs, ISBN : 81-7742-085-2, $42.00. He has destroyed the childish arguments of Michael Witzel, a Professor at Harvard University.
Better luck next time for your next debate with me on FFI or IW or wherever. As of now, you have plenty of reading to do to digest some facts!