A letter from our reader Mr. Syed Ahmed

I had to chuckle, Dr. Sina, because this guy sounds almost exactly like the many Christian proselytizers with whom I have had to tangle over the years. Just change a few words, and voila! Same arguments, same attempts at TERRORIZING us all into following the same cult that he is so obviously very insecure about.

Why else would he be so obsessed not to only follow your work through receiving emails but also to go out of his way to write to you, with all manner of logical fallacies, including arguments from ridicule and threats of spiritual terrorism?

Even though this man's pathetic rantings may be viewed as humorous, they are also disturbing, because they reflect the mental illness that has such a profound hold on humanity. Instead of appreciating the honesty, integrity and courage with which you expose a very nasty HUMAN ideology that has caused tremendous suffering and death, this poor fellow is so brainwashed that he will defend such a foul ideology and attack YOU, a living, breathing human being.

That's Islamic brainwashing - viciously and hatefully defending an ideology while destroying real lives, both human and animal.

Now that you have labeled anybody who does not believe in Islam as an idiot, then why don't you prove in a few words that Islam is the religion of truth. If you must be an idiot not to believe then the proof of the matter must be incredibly simple, right? As far as I know, a Muslim is someone who believes that there is no god but Allah and mohammed is his messenger. Why should anybody believe this? I'd be delighted to know ;-)

Oh, if you cannot prove your case, will you leave Islam or at least admit that you are the fool?

Personally I look forward to debating this gentleman, should he ever make a start on his attempt to reply to everything on this site.
Frankly, I suspect that he will never be heard from again. His letter is just another typical rant without substance.

I'd rather rot in hell then be one of Allah's whores.

I agree jonc. He is a coward. He cannot defend his religion!

Hi Ahmed,

We have no problem to bow down humbly before the Creator, assuming there is one. Our problem is with Allah for we are sure that Allah cannot be it.

I don’t want you to prove that a Creator exists. Let us assume that he does. I want you to prove that Allah is this creator.

Think hard and see if you can come up with any evidence to show us Allah is the creator.

Let us assume that God exists and Satan exists and all those stories in the Bible that are rehashed in the Quran are true. I can prove to you that Allah is Satan. How? Very simple.
Let us use the Bible.

Revelation 12:9 -- The devil or Satan is the deceiver of the whole world.

John 8:44 -- He is a liar and the father of liars. There is no truth in him. He must lie and deceive to get a following.

Let us use logic.

Also logic says that God cannot deceive mankind. Will you deceive your own children or friends, your employees or anyone who care for? If you do you are either a psychopath or an evil being and for sure the Creator cannot be either. So God cannot be a deceiver.

But what did Muhammad day about Allah? He said Allah is the greatest deceiver (Q. 3:54).

So here is the evidence that Allah is not God. There are more evidences, but now is your turn. Give us the evidence that Allah is God.

You that you cannot present claim in lieu of evidence. In many places in the Quran we read that Allah is companionate, merciful, etc. Any liar will say good things about himself. You have to bring evidence. Show us one act of goodness, forgiveness, kindness, magnanimity or love from Allah or his messenger. There is none. Despite these bogus claims, Allah comes across as truly evil.

So I am afraid you are a Satan worshipper and will go to hell after you die. I strongly suggest you leave Islam before it is too late and repent.

Hi Ahmed,

We have no problem to bow down humbly before the Creator, assuming there is one. Our problem is with Allah for we are sure that Allah cannot be it.

I don’t want you to prove that a Creator exists. Let us assume that he does. I want you to prove that Allah is this creator.

Think hard and see if you can come up with any evidence to show us Allah is the creator.

Let us assume that God exists and Satan exists and all those stories in the Bible that are rehashed in the Quran are true. I can prove to you that Allah is Satan. How? Very simple.

Let us use the Bible.
Revelation 12:9 -- The devil or Satan is the deceiver of the whole world.

John 8:44 -- He is a liar and the father of liars. There is no truth in him. He must lie and deceive to get a following.

Let us use logic.
Also logic says that God cannot deceive mankind. Will you deceive your own children or friends, your employees or anyone who care for? If you do you are either a psychopath or an evil being and for sure the Creator cannot be either. So God cannot be a deceiver.

But what did Muhammad day about Allah? He said Allah is the greatest deceiver (Q. 3:54).

So here is the evidence that Allah is not God. There are more evidences, but now is your turn. Give us the evidence that Allah is God.

You that you cannot present claim in lieu of evidence. In many places in the Quran we read that Allah is companionate, merciful, etc. Any liar will say good things about himself. You have to bring evidence. Show us one act of goodness, forgiveness, kindness, magnanimity or love from Allah or his messenger. There is none. Despite these bogus claims, Allah comes across as truly evil.

So I am afraid you are a Satan worshipper and will go to hell after you die. I strongly suggest you leave Islam before it is too late and repent.

Oh well, the attributes of Allah are a great topic. As far as I know, Allah is not only the great deceiver, but he is almighty and wise. Well if he is almighty and wise, then everything Allah does must be perfect. But then I have a problem.

Surah 2, Verse 106:
Whatever communications we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things? "

Alllah abrogates his revelations? Well then they are not eternal! Allah brings BETTER revelations as replacements? Well, then his original revelations had to be improved. So he got it wrong the first time and had to correct himself? Can he be almighty and allwise?

Is he merely allmighty and not allwise? That cannot be, since a lack of knowledge is a lack of power. Consequently, Allah is not allmighty, contrary to the quran!

Oh welll, this is an endless topic, and you could point out quasi innumeralbe discrepancies in the quran...

He he hihihi allah the creator.Hmm and humbly bow in front of that mather chod alla? Pimp allah? Rapist pedophile rasool mohammad.Must be joking. huh

The common thread of stupidity runs through the DNA of all moslems.This email from a brain dead moslem( I know iknow it's superfluous) proves beyond any shred of doubt that moslems are indeed stupidest people in this entire universe.

Marie,

I agree! I think hell would be heaven compared to living eternity with that pimp!

Dr. Sina is right.....one reason Muslims become so upset with us is because we believe in freedom of expression.....which Islam does not except....we say what we want and they try to use their ideology and dominate ours. They become even more livid because they see it does not work!

another proof moronic is not in the gene, but if you exposed to islam.

He is true to his ISLAMIC nature
1. terrorize or kill
2. tempt them by lies about judgement day or the whores in heaven
3. shut own eyes and say all others are fool and die in peace

I agree with the first comment, this guy is skittish, insecurity induced by Islam is cured only through honesty and a passion for truth.

I was discussing Israel/Palestine two state solution with a muslim friend, he was certain that Hamas is an obstacle yet he prays for the day when all jews will be exterminated, I told him about FFI, I hope he makes it here like this latest muslim with the e-mail.

ALI SINA WROTE: But what did Muhammad day about Allah? He said Allah is the greatest deceiver (Q. 3:54).
And he compares it to the prophecy that jesus stated

ANSWER: You act like your a very intellegent guy, but you cant seem to acknowledge that these are interpretations. Lets look at other translations:

[3:54] They plotted and schemed, but so did GOD, and GOD is the best schemer.

Pickhtall: And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers

Yusuf Ali: Allah is the best of schemers. And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

Shakir: And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.

Maulana M ali: And (the Jews) planned and Allah (also) planned. And Allah is the best of planners

Malik: The unbelievers among the children of Israel plotted against Jesus and Allah also devised a plan to raise him up, and Allah is the best in planning.

Now which one of these authors translated the section of the verse decievers. Are you trying to pull a fast one ALI SINA. You seem to focus your concentration on anything that goes against islam so that you could use it as a tool to disregard islam, but you cant focus your attention on what jesus said about god and what all the prophets said about the coming of a final prophet.

And anyway even so let it be the tranlsation is as Allah the deciever, how can you compare it to what jesus is prophecizing.

Jesus said: Revelation 12:9 — The devil or Satan is the deceiver of the whole world.

The verse you quote is whereby the the unbelivers thought they were clever to plot to kill jesus, and all Allah is saying is that they cant decieve him but allah can plan against them and decieve them.

Allah is not saying he is decieveing the whole world to do bad deeds, he is only reffering to those people who tried to plot to kill jesus.

ALI SINA WROTE: So here is the evidence that Allah is not God. There are more evidences, but now is your turn. Give us the evidence that Allah is God.

ANSWER: This is not evidence mate, this is just ytou trying to pull a fast one. You lie and you lie over agin. You make verses sound how you want them to sound. You wrote deciever when none of the translations interpretate it as deciever. Your a Lier.

ALI SINA WROTE: So I am afraid you are a Satan worshipper and will go to hell after you die. I strongly suggest you leave Islam before it is too late and repent.

ANSWER: You just contradict yourself. You dont even believe in God. So why would this person according to you go to hell. If there is no god than there is no heaven or hell. And how can he be a satan worshipper, because you dont belive in go, and if there is no god there is no satan, because super natural things wouldnt exist.

You talk nonsense ALI SINA, YOU DONT BELIVE IN GOD, BUT YOU BELIVE THERE IS HEAVEN AND HELL AND THAT THERE IS A SATAN. How pathetic. OH YEAH AND IN YOUR BOOK ANOTHER AUTHOR SAYS YOUR BLESSED. MY GOD WHAT A JOKE. LOL

Londonspirit you lied just like allah the devil.Yousef ali version said allah is the greatesty deceiver and shcemer and planner to do like wise. I have 6 qurans and all say the same.

Mr. Sina is good. I forgot Rev 12:9, but it tells us who allah really is SATAN the DEVIL and he lets us know.
Only STUPID muslims Tabari 1:280 tells us are unable to discern the truth.

Mr. Sina knows his stuff. Islam will die and politics will destroy it.

London Spirit
Hello brother. I hope you are doing well. I have not seen your comments for a while.

Listen, I hate that to tell you, but it is a fact. The Arabic verse says that Allah is "the Best Deceiver". As you know, my mother tongue is Arabic. You can check what I am telling you with people from Arab background or whose native language is Arabic.
So, brother, Sina knows what he is talking about in this case. I do not agree with him on some things, but this time he is correct, and you are wrong (as usual to be honest).
Have a good day brother, and it is good to see you writing and arguing again.
Peace

London Spirit

I too found something amiss there in what Ali Sina wrote.

But, I have other thoughts after reading email of Mr Syed Ahmed:

1. Mohammad himself declares to be the "prophet" of Allah;
no Allah or angel proclaimed him a "prophet".

2. Mohammad gets message of Allah in a cave.
Was Mohammad agoraphobic? [see definition below]
Is Allah fond of tete-a-tete?

3. Mohammad when faced with a crisis goes into cave and there is a ready message that has remedy or solution
to the very crisis that Mohammad faces and it happens all the time Mohammad is faced with a crisis.
Is Allah the trouble-shooter for Mohammad?

4. Mohammad also got Allah wrong.
satanic verses came into vogue.

5. How come Allah vouches for Mohammad and Mohammad vouches for Allah?
Does it not make Allah the alter ego of Mohammad?

* Agoraphobia: the victim of this illness fears wide and open places. Being in a flat plain or a rocky crag overlooking a wide valley would scare a person suffering from agoraphobia. When triggered, the victim becomes nervous, taking a -2 to Perception and -1 to Skill (for each intensity of the illness.) In combat, the victim suffers a -1 to attack and -2 to parry (for each intensity.) On a critical fumble on the panic check, the victim becomes completely panicked and unreasonable. In this case, there is a 50% chance that the character will run away, or become catatonic (Unusual motor behavior that manifests itself in an extreme lack of reactivity to the surrounding environment).

Mr. Syed Ahmed

Please respond. I surely would like to learn real Islam, if it is not what Ali Sina and ex-Muslims say it is.

IBNKAMMUNA WROTE: The Arabic verse says that Allah is “the Best Deceiver”. As you know, my mother tongue is Arabic.

ANSWER: It dont matter if your mother tongue is arabic or not, Firstly your not a scholor of islam and secondly just because your mother tongue is arabic doesnt mean that non-arabs are not able to speak and understand arabic better than you do. I have given many translations of the quran here and none of them say deciever. I am pretty sure that out of the 6 tranlsation one of them can understand better arabic than you if not all 6 of them.

And anyway like i said if you read my post properly that even if it does say deciever it is not what jesus is reffering to in the bible. You cant seem to understand simple basic english and you want me to believe that you can translate arabic better than these scholors of islam. Its just not about translating its also about understanding and getting things in the right context, which I know from our previous debates that you cant seem to do.

So i nthis case brother sina doesnt know what he is talking about and nor do you, because if you both did you would have realised that jesus is talking about how the devil decieves

Revelation 12:9 — The devil or Satan is the deceiver of the whole world.

And if you read the verse of the quran, according to your statement

Malik: The unbelievers among the children of Israel plotted against Jesus and Allah also devised a plan to raise him up, and Allah is the best in planning.

Allah is talking about how he planned in deciving the people who plotted to kill jesus. Its go no relation to decieving every human being on this planet.

So its not me being wrong its you and ali sina. And dont bother even saying as usual , becuase in our last debate it was me who had the final word, not you. And because you had nothing else to say you said to me I am lost. And if I am wrong as usual why dont you step up to the challenge which i put up over 5 months ago. And yet still no one has challenged it. Good luck

Its the same crap every time and every where.These moslem bone heads will say the same crap.You are not an arabic scholar.Wow as if the road side banana seller in a remote corner in India , a despicable moslem understands the vomitus of allah the pimp and the rapist mohammad.Even the fellow commenting here has no clue about the arabic language but in defending the islamic pimp allah and the rapist mohammad he is all arabic.
The point is this.Moslems are bone heads. Stupid, silly, violent, asinine a**holes.

My dear brother LondonSpirit,

You really don't know my academic background to say that those translations you are putting down are correct and that mine is not, even though arabic is my mother tongue. All I am asking you is ask someone who knows arabic what the verse says. Fair enough. The verse says that Allah is "Kheir El-Makireen". Allah is the best of deceivers. That is what it says. The origin of the word "Makireen" is Makr. Makr is extreme deception where anything goes (i.e. lying, tricking someone to think one thing while the facts are different). In any case, you can take what I am telling you to the bank.

LondonSpirit, brother, about twenty years ago I used to teach introductory courses in logic and reflective thinking at a university. With all due respect, I think it will help you a lot to take an introductory course in logic. A course in logic helps people see the different forms of flows of thinking to distinguish between what is good reasoning and what is bad reasoning. I honestly believe you are lacking in that. I am not saying that to put you down. God knows this is not my intention here. But I do think it will help you see your reasoning flaws.

Have a good day brother

IBNKAMMUNA WROTE: I used to teach introductory courses in logic and reflective thinking at a university. With all due respect, I think it will help you a lot to take an introductory course in logic. A course in logic helps people see the different forms of flows of thinking to distinguish between what is good reasoning and what is bad reasoning.

ANSWER: Wow you taught logic to people, mate I got a masters in aerospace engineering. I know how to use logic. Logic has been the foundation of all my research and assignements. You want to use logic, than lets use logic since again you failed to see the point I made on a above post about even if the translation did mean deciever.

When you put your post up just say agree or disagree,. if you disagree explain why you do so.

The verse says the following:

Revelation 12:9 — The devil or Satan is the deceiver of the whole world.

9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Ali sina is decieving here. Because that is not what the verse says. the actual translation says. Ali sina further quotes that

John 8:44 — He is a liar and the father of liars. There is no truth in him. He must lie and deceive to get a following.

Ali sina is decieving here again. Because that is not what the verse says. the actual translation says

Take note here. Ali sina didnt even interpret the full verse. He is up to his old tricks. He is the true deciever because the actual verse say the following:

John 8:44 (King James Version)

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So IBNKAMMUNA Did ali sina lie about the sayings of the verse. Agree or disagree?

Now lets look at revelations. It is saying that the devil was hurled to earth to lead astray the whole world. Agree or disagree.

Now lets use logic here. The verse clearly says that the devil or serpent was thrown down to this earth to decieve people. By using logic we can clearly take note of two things. One which is serpent and the other is thrown donw to earth.

ALLAH IS NEITHER A SERPENT NOR WAS HE THROWN DOWN TO THIS EARTH.

Agree or disagree?

Now we move on to john 8:44, we use two sections of the verses

He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him and When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Now who is it being reffered to. Lets again use logical thinking. if you look at the two verses before that verse as follows:

42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.

From these verses we can clearly see that jesus was talking to the children of israel about SOMEONE.

GOD IS NOT SOMEONE. AGREE OR DISAGREE?

Now you may say he is talking about Muhammed. Lets analyze if the verse is talking about Muhammed, for this we only need to use two sections of the verses.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him and When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Now muhammed never lied, he spoke of the truth, which is there is only one god, which all the other prophets said and he never spoke of his own but what was said to him.

AGREE OR DISAGREE?

And the verse you and Ali sina relate to from the quran says

Malik: The unbelievers among the children of Israel plotted against Jesus and Allah also devised a plan to raise him up, and Allah is the best in planning.

Here is ALLAH talking about decieveing the whole world?
Not in the least, Allah is talking about deciveing the people who thought they killed Jesus.

You keep rattling nonsense LondonSpirit
In any case, just ask someone who knows arabic what the qur'anic verse says.
Engineering..good for you. I had many on them take my class. Some were bright, and some were...well, let's say they were not as bright.

this is my last posting since you keep rehashing nonsense.

Sina's argument relies on 2 axioms: that the Qur'anic verse says that Allah is the best deceiver there is, and that the Biblical verses tell that the Devil is the deceiver (father of deceivers). A third axiom is that God is not a deceiver, or cannot deceive mankind.
If you accept that, you'll have to accept Sina's reasoning and conclusion.
Your main problem, Londonspirit, is that of rejecting that the verse in the Qu'an says that Allah is the best of deceivers. I tried to tell you that, but you have a thick head. Ask someone who knows arabic.

Now, I know you will comment back and rehash those biblical verses and what that means. That is immaterial in Sina's argument here. If you accept the premises he starts with, you have to accept the conclusion.
Good luck to you brother

Its the same all over again and again, muslims cannot argue, thats a fact. They try to bully, if that doesnt work they threatend you. Nothing new here, I have experiened this many times, they are full of b....shit all the time

ibnkammuna i used logic an yet you deny. I told you to disagree or agree an yet you fail to do so. I showed you clear proof that ali sina misquoted the verses an yet you still deny. I even said so what lets assume that the sentenance does say best deciever an i explained to you what the bible verse says an how it plays no comparison an yet you couldnt agree or disagree. But yet u still think i have a thick head. In all 3 of my post i said lets assume that the verse does best deciever but yet you still askin for me to ask a arab guy even though i accepted it. Wow u taught some engineering guys logic. Your saying they are not so bright. Do you have a degree in any form of engineerin. It is one of the hardest courses in the world an for you someone wit no degree to say they are not so bright well just shows your intelligence

kikl, well said,

Allah HIM/HERself admitted that earlier verses were not good and abrogated them and replaced them with better verses. This is a problem for Muslims, for how can they now defend Islam when outsiders point out that Allah apparently had made mistakes. Or: that Muhammad was mistaken and Allah had not prevented the wrong verses to get into the Quran. Didn't Allah pay attention all the time? Or did Muhammad go somehow behind HIS/ HER back? Which Allah at first did not notice? This points somehow to faults and/ or shortcomings of both Allah and Muhammad and thus Islam.

BUT what I would like to say about the Quran and Hadith is that Allah maybe should have abrogated much much more and much more often and especially since there are so many ex-Muslims and Islamologists and sites like FFI, Islam Watch and others. Who now point out faults/ shortcomings/ misdeeds about Islam so abundantly, every day. Or at least faults/ shortcomings in its interpretation, if we are to believe apologists.

Because the world has changed so much, and now English has become a very important language, for Muslims and those who try to understand Allah's message, and Arabic only is clearly not sufficient. Due to its Arabic origine, but also due to development of language, dramatic change of the whole world, abrogation and upgrading is hugely in order by now, it would seem that the original texts of Quran and Hadith are now so unclear, obsolete, incomplete, ambiguous. And indeed interpretated, by Muslims, in so many different ways.

If Quran and Hadith were manmade, like constitutions of states, at the very least they would have been amended by now. If they were Mission Statements for mankind to follow, in order for Mankind to be governed in the best way possible, they would or should have been updated, upgraded, clarified, amended, perfectly translated etc thousands of times.

And in my opinion that would not have been a degradation of Allah as somehow not being perfect. But it only would have meant that humans, who are supposed to understand and use Islamic instructions well, are very imperfect and changing all the time, while at the same thing everything in the world, including technology, also changes.

But Allah did not abrogate anything any more after Quran and Hadith after they were completed. And Muslims, we now conclude, as a distinct group, or as persons, on average, by and large, did not perform any better than any other distinct group in any important aspect. Which is now abundantly shown all around the world and highlighted in sites like FFI/ Islam Watch etc. In fact they contend that Islam performed abysmally worse than many other beliefs/ organising systems.

But we CAN be content by saying it performed just NOT ANY BETTER, because that is sufficient to ask all Muslims to be humble and modest about their religion, and about its rights to power over others now without fair elections, and about its huge ambitions of power over the whole world.

London Spirit

I raised a few points and I am still waiting for answers from any believer of Mohammad.

P.S.

I am sorry I can't take words of religious texts as from GOD as GOD is presumed by default when a creator GOD is referred to by believers of GOD/Allah. I have no reason to accept existence of GOD in spite of so many religions and "Holy Books".

And I don't know Arabic either and its is mystery yet why Allah of Mohammad chose Arabic which even Mohammad, by Islamic belief, could not read or write. May be this is another deception or trick on the part of GOD/Allah.

Thank you.

Hey Londonspirit,

even if you don't believe that this verse is about deception as IbnKammuna pointed out, you could find that out yourself. Please note that to plot or scheme have negative connotations in the english language. It can mean to devise a hideous plan. For example you plot to kill someone. According to the new testament, the jewish rabbis in jerusalem plotted to kill Jesus....

Well, how about this verse of the quran, what about it's context? Could the context tell you whether the plotting or scheming has to do with deceiving? I urge you to check Ibn Kathir's commentary of this verse. You can find it under http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=3&tid=8333

Now just read the title of the commentary: "The jews plotted to kill 'isa (Jesus)." How did they plot?

"They complained about him to the king who was a disbeliever. They claimed that `Isa was a man who misguided people, discouraged them from obeying the king, caused division, and separated between man and his own son. They also said other lies about `Isa, which they will carry on their necks, including accusing him of being an illegitimate son."

They plotted by lying to the king, by deceiving him. So what did Allah do in return?

"And they [the jews] plotted, and Allah planned too. And Allah is the Best of those who plot."

What did Allah plot? Allah deceived the jews to believe that Jesus was crucified, when in fact he was not!

For surely; they killed him not But Allah raised him up unto Himself. And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise. And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) but must believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he [`Isa] will be a witness against them.) [4:156-159]

The translation to plot is strictly speaking not incorrect, because it can mean to devise a deceptive plan. But, it doesn't mean this necessarily. Since this verse is clearly about deception, I think the translation is willfully misleading, because it doesn't convey the meaning unambiguously as it could!

Find out for yourself and try to look at the quran as you would look at a cell under a microscope. It is so full of errors, if each error were a hole, the book would look like swiss cheese.

Regards,

kikl

Dear LS, greetings brother

Sorry its Friday. I had to take care of kids and wife and go out enjoy life a little. Brother, I could have done engineering if I wanted. I spent my life taking courses and studying different things. I can't tell you the degrees I have ( I have 5 of them) since I like to protect my identity a little bit (You know how Muslims are! After all you are one). But all of this is not important. What is important in my view is that when one wants to argue to prove a point, one needs to know logic; know how good thinking is. I mean learn what is an argument, what is a valid arguments , what invalid arguments are, how truth values of conditional statements are determined, what is a cogent argument, what is deductive reasoning, what is inductive reasoning, what are logical fallacies..etc. Matters are not as simple as you think you can argue and prove Sina is wrong. When you read Sina's debates, you will see that he is a master in good logical thinking. He knows all the fallacies involved in analytical reasoning. He even names them by name. All of this requires a couple of good courses in Logic and analytical reasoning (or someone who disciplined himself to get some books and learn that on his own),

Now let me show you just one fallacy of yours: You accepted that Allah is the best deceiver. Right? Do you know that by admitting that, you are saying Allah is not God? think about it. You have just denied that Allah is God. Does that make you an apostate?
For a Muslim Allah is infinitely Honest. Right?
For a Muslims Allah is deceiver. Right
Do we have a contradiction here? off course we do. If he is infinitely honest, he won't deceive.

Have a good night brother

Kiki, Hello
Still "Allah Planned" in the Tafsir Ibn Kathir is really not accurate. The origin of the arabic word describing Allah is "Makr" which is deception or deceiving.
I do understand you are trying to make a valid point to LS, but just wanted to add this comment to what you say. Thank you.

Let us say satan is the deceiver and allah is not.That means allah also got deceived by satan to include satanic verses spewed out by the rapist pedophile. Makkar in hindi means low life, mean etc, which the pimp allah is undoubtedly.
The problem is not whether allah is best of deceiver or not.The truth is moslems are absolutely stupid, bone heads.That's for sure

IBNKAMMUNA WROTE: spent my life taking courses and studying different things. I can’t tell you the degrees I have ( I have 5 of them) since I like to protect my identity a little bit (You know how Muslims are! After all you are one).

ANSWER: Why is it that everytime I tell some i recently graduated with a masters in engineering the response I get is that they have got 5 degrees. What is so special with the number 5. I will say the same thing to you as I said to RAISINHEAD. bullXXXX. Do you know how long it takes to complete 5 degrees. Are you telling me you spent 20+ years of your life studying 5 different degrees? Are you telling me you had 0ver £100,000 or whatever currency you use to study for degrees. Each year in the UK studying for degree costs £4000 which is roughly $6000 *20 = $120,000 excluding other expenses.

Not even eistein has 5 degrees and not even todays cleverest man has 5 degrees. Mate obviously I dont know you and yet you may have 5 degrees, who knows but dont go and say you wanted to protect your identity. LOL initially telling me you got 5 degrees wouldnt have made no difference to what you have told me now. Your identitiy is still protected. LOL.

Yes i do know how muslims are and they are not liers like you. 5 degrees.lol. You should live in England. You would have defo been in the newspapers, as first man with 5 HONOURY DEGREES, but with no phd or masters.

IBNKAMMUNA WROTE: I mean learn what is an argument, what is a valid arguments , what invalid arguments are, how truth values of conditional statements are determined, what is a cogent argument, what is deductive reasoning, what is inductive reasoning, what are logical fallacies..etc. Matters are not as simple as you think you can argue and prove Sina is wrong.

ANSWER: 100% correct. Now i also add to that. When you want to make a logical argument, you must first state correct terms and references. In no way can an argument be accurate when there are falicies in the information provided, which in this case are the verses that are quoted. If the quotation of the verse is mis-interpreted or edited to suit the purpose of ones argument than there is no truth in the argument and the argument is invalid. When arguing, which in this case are verses again all aspects of the verse must be considered and not certain underlining statements and the argument must be in perspective to the intitial cause.

So ALI SINA invalidated the whole entire argument from the initial point as he failed to interprete the biblical verses in its original form. As he edited the verse to suit his desires. This is not the quality of a man who wishes to make a fair judgement and put his point across. This is a lie and deceptive way to use his popularity to make his point across.

As we know the more popular you are the more likely people will follow your views in regards to someone that is least popular.

IBNKAMMUNA WROTE: When you read Sina’s debates, you will see that he is a master in good logical thinking. He knows all the fallacies involved in analytical reasoning. He even names them by name. All of this requires a couple of good courses in Logic and analytical reasoning

ANSWER: well i just pointed out the first falicy of a debate which is exactly what ali sina did. So in my terms that does not coincide with anything you say. He is not a logical thinker as if he was he would have saw the inaccuries he was presented. Obviously you yourself cant seem to see the difference when jesus is describing something and how Ali sina is associating that something to Allah. Allah aint something. Allah is all mighty something our mind cannot comprehend. Probably yours and raisinheads can since both of you have 5 degrees. lol. And I dont think he is also a good analytical thinker as a good analytical thinker would take in perspective of all account before making a decision, where as Ali sina only took sections of verses which suited his needs to make a decision.

And the worse thing is You can see it clearly that he mis quoted the biblical verses but yet you still deny. what more can I say.

IBNKAMMUNA WROTE: Now let me show you just one fallacy of yours: You accepted that Allah is the best deceiver. Right? Do you know that by admitting that, you are saying Allah is not God? think about it. You have just denied that Allah is God. Does that make you an apostate?

ANSWER: HAHA me an apostate. Dream on mate. I know better than to think that life started from nothing. Not by miracles of quran of by how everything comes in perfect order but just a by a single law of thermodynamics.

You have taken the verse completely out of proportion. Yes we belive Allah is the best of everything and we give him the most beautiful names. But look at the verse properly and the preceding verses and you will encounter why such a statement was made.

[3:54] They plotted and schemed, but so did GOD, and GOD is the best schemer.

The first section says that the jews schemed or in your case deceieved but allah decieved them. And he is giving a clear warning to all as dont try and decieve Allah as Allah is the best at everything and he will decieve you.

They tried to decieve jesus and plotted to kill him, But allah decieved them.

So to me it makes perfectly good sense why allah would say decieve/scheme/plan or in your case just DECEIVE, but this was just a clear warning to people.

SO do we have a contradiction here. NO is the answer.

IL,
You are a rude person. You just accused me of lying, even though you don't know me in person. You had no evidence that I was lying to you, but you just wanted to be rude.
and yes, your trains of thinking are fallacious. Good luck to you. This is my last comment here

ibnkammuna again you failed to answer the question. It has been my 3rd attempt to get you to answer a question of mine an you didnt bred or disagree on 3 occasions. In the case of rudeness it didnt occur to u tat you were bein rude when u said u knew how to have fun or you thought your life was in danger just cause you revealed u got 5 degrees. So just out of curiosity what degree do u have. Do u have a masters or phd?

LS, you really need to read some logic books brother
I have a PhD, two masters and two Bachelors since you insist on knowing. My narrow area of knoweledg has to do with something called "three parameter logistic Model" and its applications using "Information Function". Part of my thesis actually dealt with some simulations using the above two concepts. Research them on line. I am sure there is plenty of material on that.
Get you some logic books brother. take care

ibnkammuna wow first you only taught logic. Than you had 5 degrees. An now you have 1 phd 2 masters an 2 degrees. Wow 3 changes to a story. You cant seem to use logic that your digging yourself in to a deeper hole. Ok so did u deal with thesis on how an why people try to avoid answerin questions. Which i pose to you again. If ali sina is such a logical an analytical thinker why first did he mis interpret the biblical an quranic verses and why is he relating a human an a serpent wit god. Why dont you use simple logic to answer that especially the first one-

Well LS, at least you appear to concede now that god is the best of deceivers. Let me quote you:

"The first section says that the jews schemed or in your case deceieved but allah decieved them. And he is giving a clear warning to all as dont try and decieve Allah as Allah is the best at everything and he will decieve you."

The verse says: "...And Allah is the Best of those who plot"

You just stated that this plotting is means deceiving. Consequently, Allah is the best of deceivers!

You accuse Ali Sina and Ibn Kammuna constantly of being liars. Therefore, you appear to believe that lying is unjust and evil. Let me quote you:

"So ALI SINA invalidated the whole entire argument from the initial point as he failed to interprete the biblical verses in its original form. As he edited the verse to suit his desires. This is not the quality of a man who wishes to make a fair judgement and put his point across. This is a lie and deceptive way to use his popularity to make his point across.."

Now, this comes across as an argument against Ali Sina and you argue in this way several times. So you do concede that lying is wrong, in particular if Ali Sina lies- which I think is not true - Immoral actions are said to be wrong or evil.

Well, then you must come to the conclusion that Allah being the best of deceivers is the most evil in terms of lying. The incarnation of evil is usually thought of as the devil. The most evil person is the devil. Therefore, without pointing to the bibel at all, you can make a strong argument that Allah is just as evil as the devil in terms of lying. If Allah is in fact "the best of everything" - your words!-, then he is just as competent as the devil in all his evilness. So, even so, the devil may be a different person, Allah is just as evil as the devil. Isn't that a disturbing conclusion? Therefore, without even referring to the bible you must conclude from you own words that Allah is as evil as the devil! That should be very disturbing for you.

Now, I didn't go through your arguments thoroughly londonspirit. But, I actually do think that Ibn Kammuna is right. You do have to improve your skills of reasoning and logic!

LS,
You are something else. Good luck to you smart man. Have a good life

"Than you had 5 degrees. An now you have 1 phd 2 masters an 2 degrees. Wow 3 changes to a story."

5=1+2+2

Remember that LS?

KIKL: if you read the post i said Allah is only giving a warning. Allah is saying dont think you can decieve him because he will only deiceve you. Mate cant your mind comprehend that or something. And kikl you still havent asnwered my question. Since you volutered i ask again

IF ALI SINA IS SUCH A LOGICAL AND ANALYTICAL THINKER WHY DOES HE EDIT VERSES TO SUIT HIS DESIRES.

IBNKAMMUNA completely left that question unanswered, so maybe you can answer it for me.

KIKL WROTE: “Than you had 5 degrees. An now you have 1 phd 2 masters an 2 degrees. Wow 3 changes to a story.”

5=1+2+2

Remember that LS?

ANSWER: Well kikl if you read from the begining ibnkammuna was terrified to tell me his educational background because he thought that some muslim might attack him.lol. Well IBNKAMMUNA you gave more information that i requested, so i should hear of your death very soon. If i dont than that means well muslims are not what you think they are and it is just your stereotypical thinking that narrows your mind. Comeone logical thinker you should be dead in the next few days.lol.

Any way kikl he first said he only taught logic, he than said he had 5 degrees, and than said a phd 2 masters and 2 degrees.

Well kikl a phd is not considered to be a degree. A PHD is a PHD, not a degree. DO you understand. A PHD is research based and it is called a PHD which if you pass classifies you as a doctor. A PHD is not a degree. You do not say to people i got a PHD degree, but you say you got a PHD in the relevant field. so 2 master, 2 honours degree accounts to 4 degrees and a phd.

to KikL
Hi. Thank you for your comments. I do feel I need to say I reached a point where I think its no use talking or discussing things with LS. His brain is as thick as they come. So, I think you'll be wasting time doing that.

Thanks again

well of course mate. I am speaking the truth. All i want from you is one answer. If ali sina is such a logical thinker an a analytical thinker than why does he mis interpret verses. Thats all i ask you to answer. An mate it was you who said you wanted to protect your identity from muslims as i no how they can be. But yet you revealed more than i asked for. So i am pretty sure according to you that now there will be a few muslims after your head. Lol. Ibnkammuna you always back out of a discussion. Last time it was about apostates an hypocrites. Whereby i asked how can a person be an apostate when he never even converted to islam. An this time i asked why does ali sina mis interpret verses an relate something to almighty. Anyway i think this so called discussio is over

@ Ibn Kammuna

Yup, you are right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phd
Doctor of Philosophy, abbreviated PhD (also Ph.D.), for the Latin philosophiæ doctor, meaning "teacher of philosophy", or alternatively, DPhil, for the equivalent doctor philosophiæ, is an advanced academic degree awarded by universities.

Hi Kikl
You really did not need to do that. Just ignore him (I mean LS). I actually had to take a lot of graduate courses, do a summer practicum, take comprehensive exams, then do a dissertation. What does that tell you about LS saying nonsense before he ever knows how PhD programs are done in different parts of the world? He is just not a logical thinker.
anyway, have a good evening

Although LondonSpirit is heavily engaged right now, I like it much to have my say on this conversation also.

And what Ali Sina/ Ibn Kammuna said looked valid to me. Although proof sounds too high a description to me. But what he said was at least a clear INDICATION that Allah deceived or schemed and LIED, was at least LIKE the devil.

And kikl was so on the spot when she noticed that LS, as most of us, abhors lies and deception, as he sees them done by Ali Sina (which we do not see), but condones lies when Allah does it. Because that is what the verse said.

It goes like: First the Jews were bad, intending to deceive other humans. THEN Allah DECEIVED, schemed back. Well, that is partly through LIES. And Allah/ Muhammad/ Muslims can't have it both ways;
Either Allah is always honest, but then HE can never be lying,
OR HE intervenes for good causes and then HE sometimes deceives or schemes and LIES, but then HE can't be always honest.

This was not a good reaction for GOD to what these ever scheming, deceiving fallible humans are always doing, in our opinion. HE should NOT have deceived even the evil Jews, stooping down to their level, making the ends justify the means. HE lost credibility in this way.

Hence we ask; Was this Allah even God? Or was it Satan perhaps?

Mr. Syed Ahmed,

This is a good news. I hope we will read your commentaries on this site. I am really and sincerely anxious to read you. Each Muslim who comments and argues is an enrichment for our understanding of the psychology of Islam, Muslims and human beings in general. It is, partly, because of courageous people like you that this site is interesting. Please don't desappoint us. This is not an easy task. But, from your letter, I see that you seem to have the required combativity and vocabulary. I hope your engagement will be equal to your words.

You won't have much comfort from our part. Ask your coreligionists. For us, faith is not an argument. Something is not true because you believe it. Love, tolerance, universal values, freedom of thought and speech, freedom to enquire, absence of fear, liberty, evolution, all this is rather hard to understand for a Muslim who believe that the more he is submitted, the more he is free; the less he thinks by himself, the more he is intelligent. Isn't it ? Into each Muslim's head, it is the Quran which thinks, not a free, living , sensitive and self-assuming mind and spirit. This is, until now, what Muslims showed me : Islam is submission, not freedom, and for me, if God exists, he is continuing creation, not someone who ask submission which is death but liberty which is life. Muslims do not understand this.

This is the great trench between you and us. The great sin of Islam against men and God is to imagine God asks blind submission of the mind, not freedom. Muslims think Islam is the truth and that the only and sole liberty is to recognize the truth and to comply with it. Yes, but we know Islam is not the truth and this is what we can proove. Try to listen. You will not learn anything if you don’t have a small free space in your mind where something new could enter, a small free space Islam does not bully. Good luck !

In the above discussion many well meaning respondents have quoted from the Qur'an and the Bible trying to prove or disprove Allah and the legitimacy of Muhammad as the last prophet.

From the point of view of The New Testament I draw attention to the writings of Apostle Paul, who by all accounts wrote more than half of the New Testament including the most important book of the entire Bible, The book of Romans, which puts forth the foundation of the "faith", that is the issue of Redemption, Justification, and Sanctification through the Gospel which Paul goes on to describe in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 as follows :

" That Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also."

And then Paul writes in his letter to the Glatians regarding any other coming after Jesus ;

" But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! "

So, you can see that the Bible absolutely does not prophesy any one coming after Jesus let alone Muhammad. Please note that my intention here is to clarify the issue only from the Biblical perspective.

I have heard from many Muslim friends that the Bible has predicted the coming of Muhammad, and that is just not correct. This claim may be due to the fact that the Jews as a whole rejected Jesus as the promised Messiah and therefore were/ are still looking for the Messiah to come, and the Muslim traditions took advantage of the doubt in the Jewish circles and claimed that Muhammad is he who was promised.

One of the things that is lacking in the Qur'an but very much present in the Bible are the historical aspects of the Old Testament and all the events that were predicted which came true. The OT prophesied the coming of Cyrus the Great , the Persian King, some 150 years before his birth. There is so much history, wisdom, accounts of the kings the like of Cyrus, David and Solomon in such detail that one can never find in Qur'an. By comparison there is nothing, absolutely nothing in the Qur'an and what there is is pligerasation, and even at that the authors got it wrong and there so many mistakes that can be subject of another article !

Please forgive me for writing too much. I do respect all of your opinions whether I agree with or not, and ask for the Lord God's ( not Allah ) blessings on all of you. May He give you wisdom, understanding, followed by Peace and Joy in your Hearts.

Remember how dearly God loves us all, and each one of you individually. God is Love. He is The Truth, He is Light. In Him there is no deceptions. God can not Tempt us. Therefore God's attributes are these : Love, Joy, Peace, Faith, Gentleness, Meekness, Goodness, Temperance, Happiness, Unity, and Patience. If we can find these qualities in the god of Qur'an, so called Allah, then we know that he is real. If we don't then it would be prudent to reject him.

Thanks for your kind attention.

Parviz

MR.Ahamed!

I don't know why FFI give you so much importance.You look like extremely stupid and ignorant evil personality to me.You defending a pedophile(Mohamad) and call a true philospher genius a idiot. All I can say that if you don't prove us that your Allah (imaginary sock puppet of mohaman which he use to make fool ignorant a.ssholes like you)is the creator of universe than you must bow down in front of us and we will take you to heaven for free!!!!

Panther

LS
Allah is the greatest deceiver, schemer and liar and planner to deceive lie and scheme. Sura 3:54. Are you saying allah cant do those things. Why would god say lie when he tells us not to do it. Since Muhammad claims to follow Christianity and Revelations 12:9 says theDEVIL satan is the deceiver of the etire world, that proves allah is that one. Islam haS DECEIVED the world into thinking he is the same as the god of the bible.