A Letter from Miss Faiza Ramzan to FFI
Submitted by Administrator on Tue, 08/18/2009 - 14:23
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FFI received the following email from the good Muslimah Faiza Ramzan. She rerquested that we publish her email. We are publishing it verbatim. We are also publishing the response email that one of our editors sent to miss Ramzan. Future correspondence with her, if any, will also be published.
Here is the email we received from her:
i dont want to give you verbal abuse because its a waste of space.
how can you prove everything that you said about the prophet muhammed (peace be upon him) when you dont even know anything about him. you want the muslims to prove that he i.e.(the prophet) wasnt all the things you accused him of when you cannt even prove your own accusations.
To prove this point you said that our holy prophet was a peado
well he got married to a girl of 12 yrs old girl but did he ever do anything wrong with that girl - NNNOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
SO HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT HE IS A PEADO. WHEN YOUR OWN " PRIESTS" ARE DOING WRONG THINGS TO LITTLE CHILDREN- (HEARD BY THE WORLD ON MANY NEWS CHANNELS.)
You talk so much about proving muslims wrong instead of prommoting your own religion. WHAT DOES THAT SHOW? (let me answer that for you) it shows that you are ashamed of your own religion because it has NOTHING TO PROVE. If you did have something to prove about your religion you'd be making a web page about that!
Have you ever noticed that what scientists are proving now islam proved them nearly 1400 yrs ago in the quran
The biggest point that no-one can prove is the existence of humans on earth . NASA can go on talking about the big bang when they cant even prove the existence of the "cosmic egg" and what had caused it to explode. when islam has clearly stated that Allah(SUBHANA WA'TAAALA) CREATED EVERYTHING. (ALSO PROVEN BY THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS THAT THERE IS ONE GOD.)
Now that, shuts you up and all your arrogent followers.
if you are a decent man enough to take on a debate then post this on your site and have a debate.
i do want you to reply back to me. everyone with a brain can see what you are trying to do. Islam promotes peace. People who are getting angry at your debate swear at you and you post only those comments to prove islam is not peaceful. when i can bet many people have replied to your website with many strong and rational points which you have no answer for thus you dont post them.
like i said if you are decent enough post this and reply back to me.
Here is a copy of the reply that our FFI editor sent back to miss Ramzan:
Dear Miss Faiza Ramzan, thank you for contacting us. We really appreciate that. We will definitely post your email to us on our website. We do, however, have some questions and concerns that we’d like to share with you 1. You say “Islam is the true religion”. To be honest with you, I don’t even know what that means. Please explain. What does it mean to be a “true religion”? Is there a criterion that we can apply to all religions and, once applied, all other religions are “weeded out” and all that is left is Islam? and how can you know that that criterion is the right one. Let me clarify this point a little bit since it is important: to know that a bag of apples weighs one kilo, we put the bag of apples on a scale and weigh it against another weigh on the other end of the scale. We can definitely know for sure if the bag of apples weighs one kilo or less or more. Now, imagine the criterion I am talking about as a “Truth scale” that we weigh all religions against. If the religion weighs “One Truth kilo“, then it is the true religion. Now, can you explain to me what that truth scale is and how Islam came out to be “One truth kilo” with shinning colors? What I mean is that you say Islam is true. My question is How do you know that? Don’t you think you are presuming too much here? 2. With regard to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), we actually know a lot about him. We have many fine researchers and thinkers on this site who spend countless number of hours researching the Qur’an and the Hadith to find out the truth. This site was started by Dr. Ali Sina, an Iranian who remained a Muslim till he read the Qur’an and the Hadith. When he did that, as expected, he left Islam. We encourage you to do the same, and you will leave Islam, thats if you are to remain honest to your humanity. You informed us that we accuse Muhammad, among other things, of being a Pedophile. Well, what would you call a fifty three year old man who gets engaged to a six year old child then sleeps with her before she is even nine years old (Ayesha was 8 yrs and 9 months old when Muhammad slept with her – back then, they used lunar years)? Would you call him a sick pedophile or a holy prophet? On the top of the screen on our “faithfreedom.org” site, you can click on “the challenge”. One of the claims we make is that Muhammad was a pedophile. If you click on that, you’ll see that all of our cliams about Muhammad being a pedophile are supported by authentic hadiths, most of which were narrated by Ayesha herself. Isn’t that enough evidence for you? It is certainly enough evidence for us. By the way, Muhammad was not just a pedophile. He was many other things, all included in “the challenge”, and some more. For example, did you know that Muhammad beheaded six hundred plus men of the Quraiza tribe, then enslaved the women and children? He did that in one day, and participated in the beheading festivities. Did you know that Muhammad attacked unprovoked peaceful tribes, killed the men, enslaved the rest, and took all of their belongings? one example is what he did with Bani Al-Mustaliq? Did you know that he attacked Khaibar for no reason except his greed? Did you know that he sanctioned raping women by his, so called “Sahaba”? we, at FFI, call them by their true name, a band of thiefs and criminals. We, at FFI, try to search for the truth in the history of Islam. We try to uncover it, no matter how painful. People need to know the truth about Muhammad and Islam. Don’t you need to know the truth also? Miss Faiza, you accused us being Christians/Jews. FaithFreedom International is a grassroots movement of Ex-Muslims. Our site is not affiliated with any organized religion. We preach humanity. We believe all human beings are brothers and sisters. We believe all citizens of the state are equal. This site was established by Dr. Ali Sina, who was a Muslim, then left Islam – thanks to him reading the Qur’an and the Ahadith. Miss Faiza, I am one of the editors for FaithFreedom. I am genuinely thankful to Dr. Sina for establishing this site. I said the “Shahada” many times with my Muslim friends. But to be honest, I was never a Muslim myself. I had too many objections to Islam, especially the way it treats women. Now, you are a woman. Qur’an 4:34 clearly sanctions a man beating a woman. Is that a good thing? I am genuinely interested to see your view on this matter. Please note that the Qur’an does not have a verse like 4:34, that allows a woman to beat her husband. As you know, some husbands stray out of line, and will need a good beating. Or won’t they? I’ll be interested to hear what you say Miss Faiza. But please, do read our “Challenge” on top of the page in our site. Everything we claim is documneted and supported by multiple evidence from the Qur’an and from the Hadith, as well as the Sirat. Regards, and please do write us back and let us know what you think Below are some Hadith Quotations for your perusal (all such hadiths will confirm your faith Miss Faiza): Narrated ‘Aisha:that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that ‘Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).” what you know of the Quran (by heart)’ Bukhari 7. 62. 65 Narrated ‘Ursa:The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Bukhari 7. 62. 88 During the night, trenches sufficient to contain the dead bodies of the men were dug across the market place of the city. In the morning, Mahomet, himself a spectator of the tragedy, commanded that male captives to be brought forth in companies of five or six at a time. Each company as it came up was made to sit down in a row on the brink of the trench destined for its grave, there beheaded, and the bodies cast therein. … The butchery, begun in the morning, lasted all day, and continued by torchlight till the evening. Having thus drenched the market place with the blood of seven or eight hundred victims, and having given command for the earth to be smoothed over their remains, Mahomet returned from the horrid spectacle to solace himself with the charms of Rihana, whose husband and all her male relatives had just perished in the massacre. [Source: W. Muir, The Life of Muhammad, (Edinburg 1923, Pages 307-8)]. Bukhari – Volume 3, Book 46, Number 717: Narrated Ibn Aun: I wrote a letter to Nafi and Nafi wrote in reply to my letter that the Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives; the Prophet got Juwairiya on that day. Nafi said that Ibn ‘Umar had told him the above narration and that Ibn ‘Umar was in that army. Muslim – Book 019, Number 4292: Ibn ‘Aun reported: I wrote to Nafi’ inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before m”. ing them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi’ said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops. I hope you have read all of the above. Such stories, I am sure, prove to you, that Islam is True, and that Muhammad is indeed a prophet of the almighty !! thanks again Editor
Gosh! Faiza you are duped,
Gosh! Faiza you are duped, from your post,one sees the outcome of a conditioned/robotic brain,Islam says god created everything and voila!! Science is defeated, do yourself a favor n google Greek,Persia or Roman scientific/philosophical achievement,check out 'creation myth of the ancient world' you will see where your copy/paste prophet got his take on the 'early human science. We sincerely hope you will wise up and let go of phobia of hell, I am almost sure you hate most of Mo's act, if you don't, then you should question your integrity, as for this site being pro christians, you are wrong, freethinkers like myself campaign for rationalism/abolishment of hate while others are here to fight the hatred from Islam.
Faiza you need to know more,
Faiza you need to know more, your whole e-mail spells your limited/arrested thinking, early human civilizations came with the universe creation theory/creation of man,long before Mohammad those ideas existed, google 'early creation myth' and you will come out more educated, science strives to understand the naked reality not competing with ancient men's flawed reasoning, I am almost certain you depise Mohammad's sexual escapades and the killings, if you don't, you should check your integrity.
Busted Divinity, you wrote:
Busted Divinity, you wrote: "...Islam says god created everything and voila!! Science is defeated..."
If you read Faiza's letter she wrote: "Have you ever noticed that what scientists are proving now islam proved them nearly 1400 yrs ago in the quran".
So I think that she is saying that modern science is proving that what the Koran says is true! Thus I think you mis-understood her.
What seems to be happening in some Muslim circles is the following when the Koran says something untrue:
1. Deny that this is what is says by hunting for an obscure (and possibly irrelvent) meaning of the word(s) and using that instead.
2. Use the fact that any translation is an 'interpretation' of the Koran, so 'interpret' the meanings to fit modern science.
3. Use tortuous apologetics to show that the root of an arabic word (three consonants) is related to a totally different word and insist this is the meaning instead.
---
Faiza you wrote: "how can you prove everything that you said about the prophet muhammed (peace be upon him) when you dont even know anything about him."
Many of us here have read the Koran and studied the Ahadith and even read the Sirat. If then "we don't know anything about him", I ask you how do you "know anything about him"? What other sources are there? Please tell me this wondrous authenticated source of information you have that we don't have access to.
You wrote:"To prove this point you said that our holy prophet was a peado [sic] ...well he got married to a girl of 12 yrs old girl but did he ever do anything wrong with that girl ...SO HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT HE IS A PEADO. WHEN YOUR OWN ” PRIESTS” ARE DOING WRONG THINGS TO LITTLE CHILDREN- (HEARD BY THE WORLD ON MANY NEWS CHANNELS.)"
This is a non-sequitur. The fact that some Christian priests have been(and perhaps still are) pedophiles does not exonerate your prophet. Since when do two crimes cancel out?
the "official" reply to you pointed out that mohammed married Aisha when she was SIX and started having sex with her when she was NINE. Now, what do you call a 50-something year old man who has sex with a nine year old girl? At minimum he was a child-molester, surely.
Now, the real point here isn't, ultimately, what mohammed did or what the priests did, it is what is condoned or sanctioned by the various religions.
Now, mohammed as the "avatar" of Allah had sex with a nine year old, therefore Allah sanctions and condones this act.
Jesus, as the "avatar" of God most certainly didn't have sex with underage children and the New Testament contains neither sanction nor condonation for such an act.
Secularists also state that child-molestation/pedophilia is a crime.
Which of the three, mohammed, Jesus or secular society offers the most moral (or come to that mentally healthy) guidance?
Faiza you wrote: "The biggest point that no-one can prove is the existence of humans on earth ."
Is this an existentalist point? Are you claiming that since we can only experience things through our senses and given that our senses can be fooled (hallucination etc) that there is no ABSOLUTE proof of anything?
If so, that is a dangerous argument for you to make: it also applies to your prophet and Allah!
Most people, however, accept the idea that a reproducible set of experiments or a shared set of experiences do demonstrate reality.
On that basis, the existence of humanity on earth is proven.
You wrote: "NASA can go on talking about the big bang when they cant even prove the existence of the “cosmic egg” and what had caused it to explode. when islam has clearly stated that Allah(SUBHANA WA’TAAALA) CREATED EVERYTHING. (ALSO PROVEN BY THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS THAT THERE IS ONE GOD.)"
Your "cosmic egg" is literally vanishingly small. Modern Astrophsics suggests that the Universe started out as a "singularity" - a point of volume which contained all the mass-energy of the Universe.
Now, what caused it to "explode" (though this is a misnomer) is indeed unknown because the laws of Physics break down at a singularity. Have you read Prof. S. Hawkings "A brief history of time"? I'd urge you to do so - you would understand the "big bang" so much better.
Thus you may say "it was Allah" and Jews and Christians may say "It was God". This too can be a dangerous statement. If you are not careful you end up creating a "god of the gaps", by which I mean you use God to explain things you don't understand.
This is demonstrable in all history. Things that 1000 years ago were though of as "the will of Allah" "divine providence" etc are now well known phenomena (eg earthquakes, thunder-and-lightening).
Thus the question is: what happens to your 'god' when the gaps disappear?
You also stated (above) that "Allah created everything".
Does that mean that you do not believe in evolution?
But surely, since evolution is such a well established theory (there is no such animal as a scientific 'fact', remember!) your Koran must speak about it since (quote) "... what scientists are proving now islam proved [to] them nearly 1400 yrs ago in the quran"?
You wrote: " Now that, shuts you up and all your arrogent followers."
No, I'm sorry it doesn't.
I don't feel in the least silenced; sorry I'm not behaving like a dutiful little dhimmi who has paid the Jizya "out of hand and feeling [myself] humiliated", but then I live in a western Country that allows freedom of speech - not something that Islam is known for!
Good on you
Good on you BustedDivinity!
I also prefer Science much over the “holy, unchangeable” words of a religion that is 1400 years old. Only you can formulate it better than I can. But being able to search for the best ideas, the best explanations, the wisest advice that mankind has thought of, in those 1400 years, is so much better than to kling to these Islamic dogma’s in Quran and Hadith. That are so old and were concocted by ancient primitive peoples. Just because some prophet said they were the words of God. If so, why does God never review, update, as Science does all the time, in reaction to practice, progress and criticism?
Any way, people on FFI, Islam Watch, Jihad Watch, many of whom are ex-muslims, know so much about Islam, much more than the average Muslim it often appears. And they know what Islamic preachers tell their followers, Islamic parents tell their children. It is that Islam is the true religion, that Islam is superior to all other religions/ beliefs/ ways of life/ ways of organizing societies. They tell about other religions/ societies what faults, shortcomings they have, how many misdeeds their followers did.
And this alleged superiority of Islam then becomes the justification of Islamic rule, in countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, Somalia. And in most other Islamic countries Islam is also much favored over other beliefs. And some Muslims even base conquering the world for Islam on their idea of Islam’s superiority. Furthermore this superiority-idea often even makes Muslims kill people who leave Islam. In some countries they even have laws to that effect (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, Pakistan).
But on FFI, Islam Watch, Jihad Watch the faults and shortcomings of Islam, the misdeeds of Muslims, often in the name of or inspired by Islam, are now carefully observed and shown. And they will be monitoring Islamic behavior, examining and judging Islamic teachings for a long time to come.
And this we hope will result in reasonable, rational Muslims to become more humble and modest about their religion, and its rights and ambitions and limitations thereof.
Hello jonc. These Islamists
Hello jonc. These Islamists want total submission and total supremacy in knowledge, you are right, they are happy that science compliments their book(eventhough it is more often a case of using the ambiguity of the verses) their actual stance is that whatever science comes up with is nothing compared to their book, in other words, science is never superior to the almighty Allah's eternal knowlege, they love to say 'hey, the quran says this 1400yrs ago' this to them means science is defeated, it came late, my pet peeve however is when they 'everything is in the quran' some even believe that scientists use the quran to find answers, a copy of quran is said to have been found karl max's small of the back
To Miss Faiza
Any sensibility forged in the dark time needs a modern man's critical analysis, in the Epic of Gilgamesh on the tablets, 2400 Bc, it narrates a creation story where Goddess Ninsun with the help of goddess Ea created human beings from clay, have you seen a parallel to your Islamic version?
According to early polynesians, god Rangi had it off with a female goddess papa, that divine intercourse produced sons that divided earth and the sky, now, there is a verse in the quran that beats all the astrophysicist, all the cosmologist, it talks of the cleaving asunder of heaven and earth , (big bang) but another god claimed it first, go figure. Faiza
Get out of your present mental sojourn, stop listening to the incoherrent humming of those mullahs.
Jonc couldnt find my post,
Jonc
couldnt find my post, well here it is again.
You could be right, the muslims are happy when they get a confirmation from science, but the all inclusive approach is that 'science can not tell anything new that is not said in the quran' science is defeated because it said it after 1400yrs, some go to the extent of saying 'everything is in the quran,even technology' most of them are not after elevating science with such comments, they degrade it for coming late while some think the scientists get info from the quran, 'karl max died with a copy of quran in the small of his back' some say, it is all about the submission and the supremacy of god's knowledge.
To Faiza, as early as 2400 BC, in the Epic of Gilgamesh, a Ninsun the goddess got assistance from Ea and created the first humans from clay, do you see a parallel here? Or in the Polynesian version of the Big bang where Rangi had it off with a female goddess, the resulting sons thought they needed space and separated the earth and the sky, now this is the kind of science you talked about, the quran have this earth and sky cleaving asunder theory, it came late, god Rangi takes the credit for pioneering here
In the timeless sanctum of your thoughts, try to find mercy from a god that promised torture chambers, all these are sensibities forged in the dark epoch of human development, leave the incoherrent hummings of the mullahs.
There is no Islamic Science.
There is no Islamic Science. Civilization before Islam has Science. Egyptian mummies, the sun dial, pyramids, statues etc. and not one thing did Arab build the Kaaba was a Hindu temple for the Hindu God Shiva whose vagina and penis is worshipped along with 359 other gods inside trhe Kaaba. Before Muhammad allah, the main allah had three girls and he was married to the Sun. LOL. Sound like Egyptian and Greek myths, like the Flying Carpets.
Hello Demsci. Nice post up
Hello Demsci.
Nice post up there, you said it the best, most times I wonder what keeps Muslims from breaking free, some are not versed in the book but some are aware of all the inhumanity together with the total departure from true cognitive ways, yet they persist in delusion, I just don't get it, are there any evil accommoding genes in some humans while the honest ones without this gene confess and de-convert? Something's got to give here, we need to clean the gene pool.. I am glad that insurrections like the one in Iran are begining to take place, the muslims need to understand freedom from Democracy and the true knowledge that is scientific.
Demsci. Nice post up there,
Demsci.
Nice post up there, you said it best.
It is really a pity that knowledgeable muslims persist in delusion, those that dont know the real Islam like this Faiza need awakening, the mind boggling fact is that some people see the absurdities and the twisted/truncated logic in their belief but fail to be truthful, it is like some humans have evil accommodating genes while some of us that de-converted from Islam don't have it, anyhow, the gene pool needs some cleaning
Sorry about the double
Sorry about the double posting, am using my handset, not good with it.
Busted Divinity: you are
Busted Divinity:
you are quite right about the Gllgamesh saga and I'll take your word about the Polynesian divinities.
I further agree that there are similarities here between Gilgamesh and some aspects of the Genesis story and the Koranic stories.
What is different about Judeo/Christianity is that in this 'version' God creates the universe "ex nihilo" - from nothing. As far as I know, this was the first time in History that such a concept was promulgated.
It is worth pointing out that this is not a bad representation of what Physics says: to a reasonable aproximation a "singularity" is nothing. Further the Biblical line "Let there be light." as the first act of creation is a simplified form of the "big bang" since the radiation of the Big bang is a VERY high energy part of the Electromagnetic spectrum, to which (visible) light belongs.
(I know that this is of limited relevance in this debate, but I thought folk might be interested.)
Yeah, Busted Divinity, it
Yeah, Busted Divinity, it absolutely baffles me too at times.
But eh, do you think we sound arrogant to Muslims? I mean, I felt bad about not respecting Muslims. So I figured that I bring Democracy into it. I mean; I would not trust even scientists to run countries, only governments who are backed by 51 % or more of the people. Because even about our current scientific theories I am unsure. And open for better theories, aren't you? Aren't we somehow for best ideas as opposed to dogma's? Aren't we saying; hey, we don't pretend to have all the answers. We only like to be open to the best possible ideas/ theories that we can find. This also means that I absolutely do not feel myself or scientists better than Muslims. But I do think to follow Science is a better idea than to follow Islam. But I am just a fallible human being.
And also towards Muslims, we may sound VERY critical of Islam to you, but we respect Muslims. We expect many of them to be honorable, smart, rational, humoristic, nice etc.
I would like to say, it is really Nazi's, Maffia that I really dislike.
Hi, Jonc, It took some thing
Hi, Jonc,
It took some thing for me to truly understand what you were saying in your post, but then I realized it was full of information and gems! Like the 3 things that happen in Muslim circles. Very good! Then about us using the same sources as they do. Yeah!!!
Then the non-sequitur-thing and tu quoque-fallacy of Faiza, with the pedo prophet and the pedo priests. Do you think she knows what those words mean? Then the comparison between Muhammads teachings and behavior, and those of Jesus and secular society. Awesome.
Imagine; Jesus having sex with a 9-year-old! Until recently we all assumed he was single, until Dan Brown came along with the “Da Vinci Code” “telling” us he was married to Mary Magdalene and got a child from her, Sarah, from which now still there are living descendants. I used to ask people; Have you read “The Da Vinci Code” a lot, in Holland and abroad, about half the people did read it, I am sure you did too.
The God of the gaps-comment was also very good. You were ending with that you were not shut up, no Dhimmi. Way to go! Now, I really don’t know anything about Faiza, maybe she is a student, but do you think she understood your arguments? That she will answer them from an Islamic viewpoint?
By the way, jonc, are you man or woman? You now have taken both me and Poma for women, but we are men!
What is different about
This is one of the stupidest concepts ever promulgated. Such ideas were already there and even refuted logically.
Genesis is dated to 500-450 BC. Upanishads for example (dated 600 B.C.) logically refutes such an idea of creation ex-nihilo with a simple logic.
A perfect God will not create an imperfect Universe (at the least from human condition) out of nothing. Take a look at Earth, full of natural disturbances, diseases etc.
What?????
Singularity is never to any degree of approximation "nothing". This singularity of of infinite mass, although it is considered to be have infinitesimally (NOT NOTHING) small volume.
LOL....
Should I quote the b&ll s*it from bible?
In other words, this stupid babble god created Earth and heavens in the freaking darkness and then created light to have a look at what a mess he has created. Note the part which says "Earth and heavens".
Is this big bang?
May be god the father had a big-bang with his son and holy ghost, in a holy threesome and created Earth and heavens with a loud bang when they had an uncontrollable orgasm.
It is definitely NOT the big-bang Science teaches.
Before Muhammad allah, the
How does the story of a jewish girl made pregnant by jehovah sound to you? Sounds like a jehovah had a good time with the young jewish girl, at the least allah seems to be married to sun, while jehovah bonked an innocent girl without marrying her and then married her to joseph.. sounds like jehovah is a pimp.. Sound like Egyptian and Greek myths, like the Flying Carpets to me.
DEAR MISS FAIZA RAMZAN: May
DEAR MISS FAIZA RAMZAN:
May God Bless you and Your family..
Dear Nice Writtings..but little Knowledge is Dangerous....
First you have to get all the Knowledge and thn come again....coz you will not able to digest the comments as well...
Well Dear Miss Faiza Ramzan,,,,,,
i dont know either you are able to read my comment r not....
but i m jst 26 year old... and i want to have a debeat with me....and PROVE ME THT ISLAM is the TRUE RELIGION with the HELP OF QURAN and HADITH...
i'll be very MUSH happy with your effort
Quote from e-mail: “well he
Quote from e-mail: “well he got married to a girl of 12 yrs old girl but did he ever do anything wrong with that girl – NNNOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!”
Gosh, every time one of these self-deceived and deceitful apologists comes here defending Muhammad, his child-bride Ayesha keeps getting older. If Faiza Ramzan, a woman herself, can’t see anything wrong with having sex with a child of even 12, then this just proves how Islam distorts the human mind.
Read this and weep:
"The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Ayesha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)." -- Bukhari 7.62.88
Don’t forget that the impatient, sicko-paedo Muhammad couldn’t wait that long and in the meantime he “thighed” her from ages 6 to 9. Muhammad had even wanted sex with baby Ayesha when Allah revealed her to him and showed him to her while still a baby in a blanket. Her father Abu Bakr (Father of the Virgin) refused to give her to him until she was 6.
All devout Muslims have to follow Muhammad’s sick example as everything he did was commendable and halal to them. He was after all “uswa hasana” - the perfect model of conduct and “al insan al kamil” - the perfect man. Muslim apologists then have the gall to claim that they don’t worship him but only Allah, as if there were any difference. What a joke!
jonc August 18, 2009 • 10:17
jonc
August 18, 2009 • 10:17 pm
I agree with u. I read something interresting on a comparative study between the epic of Gilgamesh and the bible.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/flood/introduction.asp
I like the conclusion of that study. It (the study) realy made one think. Mind you I still hold the biblical scriptures close to my heart, eventhough I do not agree with almost 90% of what Christians believe.
Demsci I have not been able
Demsci
I have not been able to make up my mind about respecting muslims in general terms, from an early age I developed a strong denial for any valhala type concept, but most muslims do think it's ok to have an eternal BBQ with writhing and wailing humans, most muslims even the moderates got the suicide bombers' back, no amount of grotesquery and horrid description of the punishment for infidel brings out the inherent humane nature in most muslims, a lot of them prefer to shift guilt than to blame fellow muslims for atrocities such as 9/11 despite discerning the truth.
In terms of logical contration they gladly but hypocritically forget their ph.Ds just to obstruct reality, equality means little to most of them, how could anyone not see an inverted justice in polygamy?
Yeah, I will follow science anyday, it is only human, but the one that believes god said 'let there be light' has a long way to go in understanding 'objectivity'
This singularity of of
Correction to my above statement made while half-asleep.
This singularity has infinite mass density, although it is considered to have infinitesimally (NOT NOTHING) small volume. I hope you understand what is meant by "infinitesimally small volume". It is a mathematical limit which tends to zero volume, but is not actually zero volume.
Continuum1: I'm really not
Continuum1:
I'm really not going to debate whether or not the creation of the universe from "nothing" is right or not, but I think that you mis-understood my point, probably my fault I'll admit since I didn't develop it properly.
When I said that "to a reasonable aproximation a “singularity” is nothing" I was referring to it from the point of view of our Universe.
You, obviously, are aware that before the singularity "explodes" there is nothing of our Universe present - not mass, not volume, not even time. May I quote Prof Hawking: "Space-time began at the big bang singularity. ... a point of infinite density and infinite curvature..."
Now if space-time starts at the big bang, there is no "before" - it is a meaningless term since space and time [=space-time] (in our Universe at least) does not exist, because the Universe itself does not exist.
"Inifinte curvature" will mean that space is so compressed it is inifitely small (not infinitessimally btw), ie it falls below the Heisenberg limit. Since we can't measure it, we can't know it is there, hence the volume is, effectively, zero.
"Inifinite density" seems to imply "infinite mass", but in fact this is an error on two counts.
1.Even an infinitessimal mass will be infinitely dense in an infinitely small volume.
2. At the moment the singularity 'exploded' there was no mass in the Universe (as we commonly understand it). The temperature was far too high to allow matter to 'condense' out from the energy. It was only after the Universe had cooled via expansion that matter at first very exotic sorts and later still the basic protons, neutrons and electrons that form the "mass" around us today formed.
What we should refer to is "mass-energy" since the two are interchangeable.
Thus, I maintain my point: from the perspective of our Universe, it was in effect created from nothing.
I am not sure from which text you quoted I have never seen the words "formless void" translated as "astonishingly empty", but even so: Setting aside the poetic "b&llsh*t" as you so charmingly put it, the first ACT of creation is v3: "Let there be light."
Let me state that I am NOT claiming the Bible to be scientifically correct, that is an unsustainable claim (the Bible is NOT treated in the same way that Muslims treat the Koran!). My point is that "light" is a fair description of what happened in the moment of big bang to someone living several thousand years ago.
I grant you that the TEXT of Genesis dates to ~550 BC, but the traditions (oral) are much older and probably pre-date Moses, indeed they may be contempory with the Gilgamesh saga.
You wrote "May be god the father had a big-bang with his son and holy ghost, in a holy threesome and created Earth and heavens with a loud bang when they had an uncontrollable orgasm."
That would be typical of ancient creation stories that seem to say that the Universe was created either by Deicide, God-sex, or something else disturbingly human-like (rather than Holy) in origin.
However it is not the Judeo-Christian version.
Demsci: Firstly may I thank
Demsci:
Firstly may I thank you for your kind comments on my efforts, I'm just glad you found it useful.
The "Jesus married Mary Magdalene and got a child from her, Sarah, from which now still there are living descendants" thing is not a 'Dan Brown original' at all.
This has been mentioned elsewhere at FFI, but this is (if memory serves me correctly!) based in an Ahmadi doctrine.
The trouble is that there is no evidence to support it (beyond that in the doctrine itself, of course).
I saw the "Da Vinci Code" movie. Personally I thought it was a good bit of fiction but that is all that it is.
As I understand it, Dan Brown likes to 'dress up' his fiction as 'historical research'.
So I don't think the "traditional" view of Jesus is under any real threat!
G-blade:
Thank you. Personally, having read both, I have found the differences between Gilgamesh/Genesis more relevant than the similarities, as the conclusion says.
Busted Divinity:
A personal view:
I always try to respect the individual, whatever their belief-system. I tend to assume that people are sincere in what they say and are stating the truth as they perceive it.
that is not to say that I agree with their beliefs or views - as I suspect I have demonstrated here on many occasions - but even if I can refute someone's argument/point/ etc they do not lose my respect.
An exception is those (of any stripe) who have "ya-boo" attitudes and use the forum to be abusive of people, beliefs etc. or to merely make a "statement" without evidence.
In my opinion this attitude can only antagonise others and is thus self-defeating - assuming that the aim is genuine debate.
As a rider I have to say that given the Islamic doctrine of "Taqqiyya", I am always a little wary of what some (at least supposed) muslims say, though I will still write respectfully.
Let me also say that I am not a "relativist" in morals, doctrines etc (nor do I believe that this is a sound attitude). In my view, then, a person may be utterly wrong, misguided and in error - but they can still be sincere, have massive integrity and so be worthy of personal respect; even if their belief system is contemptible or loathsome.
Continuum1: quick apology: I
Continuum1:
quick apology: I missed your correction to mass-density, our posts crossed.
In this you are correct, though for other than Physicists I do not think it is helpful to use the word "mass" at all when talking about singularities etc. In any case we could talk about "infinite energy-density" with equal accuracy, which I think is a clearer representation.
Errata: Genesis text dates to ~450 BC, not ~550 BC as written.
When I said that “to a
From any point of view it is still NOT "nothing". How can that which has infinite mass-density be considered as "nothing", except to make the nonsense of babble appear scientific and mislead people?
Who told you that "nothing" of our Universe was present?
Our Universe entirely emerged from the substance of the big-bang. Infact everything in our Universe emerged from big-bang. This is again a deceitful attempt in your part to explain something stupid as scientific.
Again this is another subtle attempt to justify biblical nonsense.
What do you mean Universe itself does not exist?
What is singularity with infinite mass-density then? Universe simply existed in another form, which we have no understanding about its nature. That is all. It does NOT by any stretch of imagination mean that Universe did not exist.
Please do not act like you know a lot of stuff, when you do not understand what “Infinite curvature” means?
Infinite mass-density implies infinitesimally small volume.
"Infinite curvature" is about the 4D geometry of spacetime-continuum and the gravitational forces which distort this 4D space-time continuum according to general relativity. As the gravitational forces in singularity are so intensely large, you have "infinite curvature" in space-time continuum, which is flat (in 2D analogy) in the absence of any mass.
I am no physicist and do not claim to understand everything about general relativity or even special relativity, but can sure spot when somebody is bul& s*&tting.
I have already posted an addendum to my erroneous statement posted when half-asleep.
so..... that does not mean there was no mass? matter is is still there. It is obvious that the nature of matter inside singularity is not as same as what we see at present.
You are also forgetting the fact that at singularity the gravitational forces are so intensely large that matter is squished into infinite mass-density.
So what do you mean by condense, a term which you apply according to common understanding?
Energy or mass-energy or mass or whatever you call it, it still has finite mass.
So you are still wrong and your deceitful xian way to justify your bible nonsense is beyond words.
The translation if from a Jewish website.
chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8165
The point is you are making a claim that babble is scientifically correct in some way as you claim above and hence truly from some so called god, just like Muslims claim in their own special ways just as xians like you make claims as above.
Babble is precisely babble of primitive men. Nothing more.
There may have beeen many such stories. What is your point?
What is so holy about christian or jewish creation?
What is so holy about jehovah suddenly deciding to create at some time (actions are NOT possible without time, so you may take it as some divine time standard)?
What made jehovah create in the first place and only once?
Why would a perfectly self-satisfied being create anything and only once in eternity?
Why would an omnipotent, omniscient being knowingly create Adam and Eve and the snake knowing that they would disobey him and even put them in situations and in the wrong place near the wrong tree?
What is so holy about jehovah creating an imperfect Universe full of potential diseases, natural disasters, imperfect human beings, living creatures that eat other species and even cannibalism etc. etc.?
At the least Deists make more sense than babble or any semitic stupidity and to make subtle insnuations that this bunch of baloney is scientific is deceitful game that xians play like muslims to fool the gullible public.
“Inifinte curvature” will
LOL......
By the way, do you know what "infinitesimally small volume" means?
There is nothing such as "inifitely small".
The adverb "Infinitely" is used for quantities or variables that has no bounds and NOT for small quantities approaching zero.
So it is rather egregious to say anything is "infinitely small".
Continuum1: Unless admin
Continuum1:
Unless admin wants to move this to "debates" I'm not going on with it, bar this reply, since:
1. it is irrelevant here to comments about Ms Faiza's letter.
2. To do a proper reply to you would require a very large post that most would find boring, since it would have to involve a lot of Physics and/or extensive analogy.
All I will add is that their is plenty of stuff on the net, or Prof. Hawkings books, for the layman to get a fair understanding of the "big-bang" theory.
Anyone can look this up and then judge between us.
Comment deleted due to filthy
Comment deleted due to filthy language
To: You All Leave that girl
To: You All
Leave that girl alone!
It is clear the Editor can pick and choose which emails, letters and comments he/she can publish on the site.
Mr Editor, You just could not resist to satiate your desire to malign that lady's emotional words to defend her faith, could you? Did you even bother to try to find out how old she is? I can imagine you writing that response whilst experiencing unrivalled joy at the opportunity to malign that girl despite the apparent emotional state filtering through her email.
Mr/Mrs Editor, I can imagine you went home to your wife/husband and children or loved ones and told them the highlight of your week. That you put a letter from a highly emotional lady into the public domain who took the courage and time to write to you, despite her not being the most articulate and knowledgeable Muslim out there, to defend a man who is not alive to defend himself.
Mr/Mrs Editor, Did you also tell your friends and family that you did that for the sole reason that her letter, the motive and feeling behind which is actually priceless, could be ridiculed and gang laughed at by your colleagues, fans and members like vultures readying themselves to prey on a corpse.
Mr Editor, You probably went to sleep with a smile that you could not wipe from your face thinking about your ingenious action. It is easy to kick someone whilst they are down Mr Editor, however, it is difficult but commendable to pick them up to your own platform and then ask them for a fair fight.
Forget that Faiza and I share the same religion. As a human being, she has more principles than most of your dearest and wisest who masquarade as enlightened intellectuals.
Mr Editor, enjoy your wonderful life.
miss faiza Muslim women are
miss faiza
Muslim women are the dumbest of them all amongst the muslim, they worth half of men in intelligent, worth ¼ of men of their right to seek pleasure, and still gladly and proudly expecting to be beaten by their husband
I am unable to fathom the
I am unable to fathom the limits of nothingness! Nothing is nothing and small is small.Infinetely small means small but the available means and standards are unable to meausre the smallness.That still does not mean nothing!
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Infinitesimally small)
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Infinitesimals have been used to express the idea of objects so small that there is no way to see them or to measure them. The word infinitesimal comes from a 17th century Modern Latin coinage infinitesimus, which originally referred to the "infinite-th" item in a series.
In common speech, an infinitesimal object is an object which is smaller than any feasible measurement, hence not zero size, but so small that it cannot be distinguished from zero by any available means. Hence, when used as an adjective, "infinitesimal" in the vernacular means "extremely small".
Right. Be that as it may
The bible is most certainly unscientific, absurd and asinine.The copy of bible qrand is equally stupid and silly.How ever much people of the book try to sugar coat islam and hide bible, to an enquiring mind these absurdities and asininities stand clear.The conclusion is simple.Both these books ( Bull and Crap) are not divine,If divine then there is a big question mark over that stupid god.
My previous reply to this got
My previous reply to this got lost somewhere, so I'll try again.
Continuum1:
Unless admin wants to move our discussion to "debates" I'll not be continuing with this.
The reason is that to do so I'd have to explain the Physics in a lot more depth to do so and this thread is (supposed to be ) about Faiza Ramzan's letter.
My final comment is this: There is plenty of information on the Web about the "big bang".
the model I have been usnig is the "hot big bang" model.
I suggest that anyone who wants to should look stuff up carefully and I'd also recommend a thoughtful reading of Prof. Hawking's books, then judge between the two of us as to who has the right of it.
All the best, Continuum1,
Jonc
[...] this link: A Letter
[...] this link: A Letter from Miss Faiza Ramzan to FFI | Faith Freedom International Share and [...]
Well, Kabirlaw, It is all
Well, Kabirlaw,
It is all about you sharing the religion with Faiza Ramazan. You cannot be sure about the principles of her or the editors or the visitors to judge which one has more. Faiza Ramazan is not pathetic, we suppose she knew what the consequences would be if she send a letter like that, not too complimentary, to this site which she must or should have explored first.
If you took off your Islamic glasses, you would see how totally safe that was for her, that all she got was firm opposition, for 90 % on contents, not personal. And you would see how little perspective you have in viewing what is grave and what is trivial. Because we have just been told about Rifkah Bary, another girl, who did not write a letter, but was threathened with death by her fellow-Muslims which she and we believe. This fear is backed up by the knowledge of murder of Amina and Sarah Said by father Yasser Said earlier this year, and many other honor killings in Islamic families. In that context please remind us again what the editor did what you considered "not done"?
kabirlaw, where did you
kabirlaw,
where did you learn that filthy language?,
did you use your tounge to work on the tilth, as allah told you to treat women as tilth
brother from the slave (hagar).., read the article, this stupid muslim girl begging to put her letter on this site, don't blame moderator, are you sure this is not jews propaganda?
Demsci and Poma: OOPS! Put it
Demsci and Poma: OOPS! Put it down to cultural effects and name-sounds.
Many humble apologies.
"jonc" is male - at least i was the last time I looked.
To Kabirlaw Sir, Miss Faiza
To Kabirlaw
Sir, Miss Faiza asked us to publish her email. All we did is what she requested us to do. We just added the response that one of our editors sent to her.
We, at FFI, do not have ill intentions against Miss Faiza or any other person, be it a Muslim or not. In fact we wish everyone good health and safety. Thank you.
Miss Faiza and all other
Miss Faiza and all other Muslims will do themselves and the world a great favor if they were to come out of their mental burqa and read the Koran and Hadis and the Life of their prophet with an open and rational mind if a Muslim can ever have an open and rational mind. What Dr. Ali Sina and his staff has done in indeed great service to all Muslims but only if they would realize it.
just ignore her, she is
just ignore her, she is obviously not really a muslim, her letter proves that she know nothing about islam apart from what other people have told her. she makes statements about muhamad and islam and thinks that somehow makes them into facts!!!, she is just like the majority of the billion idiots who claim to be muslim. she know nothing about islam, has never read the koran or hadith, and thinks banging her head on the ground 5 times a day, qualifies her to argue with some of the distinguished scholars of islam we have on this site.
To All: This website is an
To All:
This website is an insult to intelligent human beings. The so called Dr. Ali Sina thinks that he is so smart. In fact, every negative statement about Islam or the prophet Mohammed that is said on this web site is false. I wonder if the so called Dr. Ali Sina has studied logic or what is Type Alpha and Type Beta errors are. This web site uses Type Alpha errors to mislead the unfortunates who did not pass or have a degree in logic or mathematics. The so called Dr. Ali Sina is challenged to reply to this posting and show a solid prove to every negative claim he is making about Islam or the prophet Mohamed in a logical and mathematical way. Hear say is not an acceptable proof in logic and mathematics. Proofs presented here by so call Dr. Ali Sina are a hear say and are simply a logical fallacy. These proofs do not concur to logical standards and simply are wrong and misleading.
MISS FAIZA, I could not help
MISS FAIZA,
I could not help but pity you on your response to FFI.For you to claim that '' islam is the only true religion'' indicated how ignorant & narrow minded your are.Am not a muslim but i can't just claim to someone
out there that mine is the only true region.What creteria did you use to get to this conlusion?The only quatations you gave only portry one side on your ''holy prophet''.It will be interesting to know what you
have to say of the other incriminating evidence where he clearly called for the destruction of whoever
didn't believe what he said.You seem to be one of those many muslims who blindly believes what he/she
was told by the parents when still a kid.I guess you are an adult now you can start examining what you blindly follow.If you are not ready to do that ,just keep your head in sand but spare the rest of us from your
pathetic nosense.
kabirlaw August 20, 2009 •
kabirlaw
August 20, 2009 • 8:52 pm
Want to use Faiza's age as an excuse to give a crooked bend of your mind to the whole debate while completely overlooking Ayesha's age when Mohammad took her?
As for emotional setup of Faiza's mind, it is the culmination of her brainwash by teaching of Islam by people like you. It is unfortunate that people like you have exploited her age, innocence and vulnerability to make assertions without any supportive evidence.
You said: "... you put a letter from a highly emotional lady into the public domain who took the courage and time to write to you, despite her not being the most articulate and knowledgeable Muslim out there, to defend a man who is not alive to defend himself."
Religions are ideologies and open to debate. Mohammad is dead is known to us but you keep him alive by running his writ. You not only imitate but also justify what he said and did. If Mohammad can't defend himself, you are doing it for him. Faiza is not articulate and knowledgeable.. you are.. do it for her. But, no.. you chose not to do so. in stead, You are making an emotional appeal.
You said : "... her letter, the motive and feeling behind which is actually priceless, could be ridiculed and gang laughed at by your colleagues, fans and members like vultures readying themselves to prey on a corpse."
kabirlaw, you are walking on a dead man's legs [Mohammad's legs, if you didn't get it] -- something worse than vultures do.
You said: "... It is easy to kick someone whilst they are down Mr Editor, however, it is difficult but commendable to pick them up to your own platform and then ask them for a fair fight."
Why don't you give a fair fight?
You said: " Forget that Faiza and I share the same religion. As a human being, she has more principles than most of your dearest and wisest who masquarade as enlightened intellectuals."
You pay the price for your principles. If there are people smarter than you, learn from them. Who said followers of Mohammad are humans? They are zombies -- pre-programmed to follow Islam blindly.
If you are so wise, YOU give the evidence for what Faiza has asserted in her e-mail.
Miss Faiza, I read your
Miss Faiza,
I read your e-mail. I take it you are young and emotional. But, you need to know that you must give resources of information you write.
Islam was not your doing, it was started by Mohammad and everybody knows and learns of Islam from Qur'an, Ahadiths and Sira.
Prove your points by giving exact references from those books.
Hope you reply to some comments on your email.
Mr Administrator, May we
Mr Administrator,
May we have comment numbers back, please?
Thanks
[This is my second request for restoration of comment numbers]
kabirlaw August 20, 2009 •
kabirlaw August 20, 2009 • 8:52 pm, To: You All, Leave that girl alone!
kabirlaw, you are badly in need of a course in logic, logic 100 would be adequate!
“Statements of Kabirlaw”
- My answers.
“It is clear the Editor can pick and choose which emails, letters and comments he/she can publish on the site.”
- What is the relevance of that statement regarding the truth of Faiza’ statement. None.
“Mr Editor, You just could not resist to satiate your desire to malign that lady’s emotional words to defend her faith, could you? “
- Emotional words are only used when reason cannot be applied. Mz. Raiza’ statements can either be proven true or false, her emotions are irrelevant.
“Did you even bother to try to find out how old she is?”
- Ms. Raiza’sstatements can either be proven true or false, her age is irrelevant.
“I can imagine you writing that response whilst experiencing unrivalled joy at the opportunity to malign that girl despite the apparent emotional state filtering through her email.”
- What is the relevance of it? Mz. Raiza’sstatements can either be proven true or false, the editor’s mood or desires are irrelevant to whether Mz Raiza’ statement aretrue or false.
“Mr/Mrs Editor, I can imagine you went home to your wife/husband and children or loved ones and told them the highlight of your week.”
- The editor daily routine is irrelevant to whether Ms. Raiza’ statements are true or false.
“That you put a letter from a highly emotional lady into the public domain who took the courage and time to write to you, despite took the courage”,
- Irrelevant as far as whether Ms. Raiza’ statements are true or false.
“DESPITE HER NOT BEING THE MOST ARTICULATE AND KNOWLEDGEABLE MUSLIM OUT THERE”
- FINALLY YOU ACKNOWLEDGE OF THE IGNORANCE IN HER CLAIM.
FIRST RELEVANT ANSWER!
“to defend a man who is not alive to defend himself.”
- No need to defend, the statements made about him are either true or false.
“Mr/Mrs Editor, Did you also tell your friends and family that you did that for the sole reason that her letter, the motive and feeling behind which is actually priceless, could be ridiculed and gang laughed at by your colleagues, fans and members like vultures readying themselves to prey on a corpse".
- Totally irrelevant as far as whether Ms. Raiza’ statements are true or false
“Mr Editor, You probably went to sleep with a smile that you could not wipe from your face thinking about your ingenious action. It is easy to kick someone whilst they are down Mr Editor, however, it is difficult but commendable to pick them up to your own platform and then ask them for a fair fight.”
- Totally irrelevant as far as whether Ms. Raiza’ statements are true or false.
“Forget that Faiza and I share the same religion. As a human being, she has more principles than most of your dearest and wisest who masquarade as enlightened intellectuals. Mr Editor, enjoy your wonderful life.”
- Your imagination is Irrelevant as far as whether Ms. Raiza’ statements are true or false.
Jim
[...] 1. A Letter From Miss
[...] 1. A Letter From Miss Faiza Ramzan [...]