Koran 4:34 is a Pre-Emptive Strike. It prevents you from killing your wife !!

I am sure Haqqui won't respond to this. What about Kabirlaw and Londonspirit? Where are they hiding????

rationalist
Comment ID #24691
October 2, 2009 • 5:26 am says:

"I am sure Haqqui won’t respond to this. What about Kabirlaw and Londonspirit? Where are they hiding????"

I say:
They are here my friend, they're in disguise.

May be the two are in to molesting children and so in a kafir country behind bars?
Typical moscums.Wife beating is pre emptive strike to prevent her from being killed!
Why not pre emptively strike the black stone holy kabba and nuke moslems ?

You could say, in a way, she does get to strike back. As it says in the Bible "an eye, for an eye". This does not mean to go and pluck someones eye out. It means in equal measure.

As people get to choose and decide, they should be aware all people are actually choosing for themself. If you gift another with kindness and compassion, well then, you have just gifted it to yourself.
Angry; and decide a family member needs to be beaten? Again, you have just chosen for yourself. An eye, for an eye.

This is fair.

What a Moron :(((

I pity the woman who'd marry or married to this paerson. This is exactly what made me choose the free path from Islam.

BTW, what was Allah almighty doing during the Tsunami and the earth quake??

He's suppoused to be all powerful and mighty, couldn't he wave his magic wand and rescue the unfortunate?? Why does lightning have to struck twice in the same region??

Or is it a geological co-incidence??

I'd settle with the latter.

My son was diognosed with a kidney infection thanks to modern science. And I'm ever so greatful to all the Kuffirs who invented excellent medical treatment and giving him that hope in life. If this had been in an Arab country they'd say 'Inshallah' and carry on.

Thanks again to all the Kaffirs who helped me get through this tough time.

The secularist from Bavaria.

Thanks.

I think the Muslims can outsource the beating works to Malaysia. They are very intelligent and clever to define the nots and donots of islam. They will watch every woman waht they drink, whether it is beer or wine. They will check the dress put by the Muslimas inside their hijabs and what not. You will be helped and relieved of the decision making whether to beat or not , if yes how many beatings and what sticks to be used and where should the beating happen. "Everything Muslimas wanted to know about beatings but are ashamed to ask" are available with the Malysian Mullahs and to some extent with Indonesian Clerics.

Ok so if a husband is flirtatious with a woman (neighbour, secretary, colleague, super market clerk - temptattions for muslim men lurk around every corner), then what can the wife do?

Can she also beat him in a pre-emptive way?

And when he beats her back eventually pacifying her then what?

I find it strange that Allah himself was unable to state clearly that it is pre-emptive?

Logically speaking in the 21 century - why not divorce a spouse who is being immoral, unfaithful or rebellious to the extent, that the husband does not feel he can live with her, sleep with her or talk to her?

Makes more sense rather than beating each other for the remainder part of life.

Why is violence deemed an appropriatye measure to get your point across?

Violence onlys creates fear, threats, disrepect, hate and involuntary submission.
Not exactly the foundation for a healthy marriage between equals.

Mr. Haqqani put all these conditions like flirting to justify the verse. Are those conditions documented in qoran or elsewhere or he just made them up? Muslim women are beaten up for sillier reasons than this.

If one of the spouse flirts, it is natural for the other to get upset. I wish allah taught muslims more spirituality and how they should conduct themselves in civil socieities than wasting his time on specifiying rules on how muslim men should behave with a flirting wife.

Thats why i find koran very shallow in content, it lacks depth.

On what basis Allah chooses one soul as male and another as female from 2 souls?
From where the souls come and how which soul is male and which female?
Female has been taken as booty in Islam. Paradise of allah is harem with 72 virgins? Who are these virgins? Why the souls of virgins have to satisfy the lust of one man, who died after killing innocent non-muslims?
Some plain mathematics and logic.
muhammed told that hell(allah's) is full of women. Thus almost all women will go to allah's hell except for 1% or 2 muslimah who happily allowed men to beat them, served the sex and other needs of husbands, allowed husband to be polygamous and take his 'right hand possession'.
Now say allah made equal number of men and women souls in earth.(As male female ratio is almost equal, and we know using chance or probability that male and female ratio should be 50% each.)
Also as per allah all non-muslims will go to allah's hell. Thus in allah's hell non-muslims will have there pairs of almost equal men and women. Also we have extra 90% of muslimah women. Thus non-muslim men has the company of more women in allah's hell than on earth.

Now who are these 72 virgins? Are they kaffir women, then this means kaffir women without being muslimah can be in allah's heavan , while all muslimah women will be in allah's hell.
Ask any women, will she like her husband of boyfriend or lover to be shared with other women? No lady of senses will be happy to share his husband or man with any other woman leave alone other 71 virgins?
The mathematics and logic doesnt sum up.
Also what's the significance of 72? Why not 10, 100 or many? This number is just absurd taken randomly by muhammed to fool the sex hungry arabs for a 'HOPE'.

Charles
Allah creates 72 big breasted white women of the same age and 28 white boys when the martyrs get horney for some butt. Like in Afghanistan with some ashnas or bakeeza baki or africaca. O no africaca are allowed in paradise only white women. racism is islamic.

Men will get the sexual power of 100 men! LOL dont know what exactly allah sorry mohammad wanted to say? The sum of 72 revirginating virgins and 28 boys is 100! The jihadi scum bag can have sex with 100 creatures at a time? Can the jihadi scum bag ejaculate 100 times? Or does it mean jihadi scum bag and moslem scum bags can keep on having an erection till they have polished off all the 72 and 28 boys? Can some pious musalmann explain the meaning ? I am quite interested in pronouncing the shahada.

Beating the wives to prevent the killing?can you believe this xxxxxx?Beating is the beginning step to a killing.better off dead than get beaten everyday.First of all why must beat them ?they are not animals!even animals can be trained without beating.what kind of stupid teaching is this.Its even silly to talk about beating a wife.Somebody out there (mr.saad's brother,sister,friend or even the neighbor)PLEASE HELP MR.SAAD TO PULL HIS HEAD OUT FROM HIS XXX AND MAIL ME YOUR BANK ACC. NO. I M WILLING TO PAY.(and MR.SAAD DONT BE SURPRISE IF I CAN TELL YOUR WIFE'S ACC NO. CORRECTLY).

Mr. Haqqui,
You have proven if there is such a thing as the devil, it was Mohammad.

The arguments given by Ali Sina / FFI is good.
Mr Haqqui takes the scenerio/case when woman is flirting, but not taking the case when husband itself is flirting. Also just say husband likes to beat women 'just like that', daily he comes from work, find the food not to taste, then takes a rod and beats her. What woman can do?
Also these muslims wont tell what a muslim woman do in a sharia country like saudi arabia, where sometimes filipino maid women are raped by husbands. These babrbaric arabs keep or do sex with non-muslim women as 'right hand possession', what shall wife do to such husbands.

Muhammad was Satan the Devil's Messiah sura 3:56.
allah said he created muslim women stupid tabari 1:280 and if they allow some man to beat them they are stupid and need to get their stupid butts beaten. There is no way I would allow any man or woman to beat me. It will be me or him. This man is absolutely stupid or the son of stupid.

Intelliboy,

"Also these muslims wont tell what a muslim woman do in a sharia country like saudi arabia, where sometimes filipino maid women are raped by husbands. These babrbaric arabs keep or do sex with non-muslim women as ‘right hand possession’, what shall wife do to such husbands."

Not just Filipino, but many indonesian were/are tortured and raped by muslim arabs. They often came back to indonesia with bruises, wounds, illegal child, and even dead! As you put it right: "right hand possession" is in practice here.

"I am sure Haqqui won’t respond to this. What about Kabirlaw and Londonspirit? Where are they hiding????"

They are in the well playing with water.

Bloody hell, your on about this again, wife beating. When will this ever finish. You people love repeating yourself. I left this particular topic unfinished in the previous wife beating debate, which one member of this forum was astounded and shocked( DEMSCI), he saw the beauty of it. The reason it was left unfinished was because no one could respond to it. Actually only one member which was ibnsahr, who kept on saying but it does sanction wife beating.

And now your repeating the same topic again. This editor is a moron.

EDITOR WROTE: a) Verse 4:34 allows beating the wife in certain conditions. If the reverse was true, can the wife give the husband a good beating?

ANSWER: No editor thats not waht the verse states, the verse doesnt say wife beating is allowed in certain conditions nor can the wife give the husband a good beating.

The verse only allows light beating if the attempts to resolve the matter fails on two occassions. Once after communication and the other after neglect. Than as a last resort you are to beat lightly. Why I say lightly because if you read the end of the verse you would see it say not to transgress. And if you read other verses about transgressing you would see that allah hates the transgressors.

So editor answer that?

Further more in regards to wife beating husband. If the couple followed the quran and the sunnah, theroetically this act should never come to surpass. As the quran clearly puts responsibility on the husband the following:

"And the believing men and the believing women, they are the friends of each other, they enjoin good and forbid evil, and establish prayers, and pay the alms, and obey God and His Messenger, these, upon them God will have mercy, indeed, God is almighty, All-wise." (Qur'an 9:71)

"And among His signs is this; that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your hearts. Verily in that are signs for those who reflect." (Surah Al Rum, Chapter 30 Verse 21)

“O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. “ (Surah An Nisa, Chapter 4 Verse 19)

And the hadiths say the following:

Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: I went to the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) and asked him: "What do you say (command) about our wives?" He replied: "Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them." (Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 11, Number 2139) "The best of you is one who is best towards his family and I am best towards the family". (At-Tirmithy). "None but a noble man treats women in an honourable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully". (At-Tirmithy).

"The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manner and kindest to his wife."

So therefore if the man follows the quran and the sunnah, a point shouldnt arise whereby the wife beats her husband. But if a point does arise whereby the man is cruel to his wife and beats her due to trangression than the quran gives the following verse:

"And if a wife fears cruelty or desertion from her husband, there is no blame on them if they reconciliate them, reconciliation between them is far better, and souls are prone to avarice. But if you do good and are God fearing then surely God is aware of what you do-" (Qur'an 4:128)

SO MR. EDITOR WHY DONT YOU LOOK THROUGH THIS. UNLIKE YOU I DIDNT TAKE SECTIONS OF A VERSE OUT OF CONTEXT TO JUSTIFY MY CLAIMS. ANSWER THIS AND ALSO DO EVERYONE A FAVOUR HERE BY BRINGING UP A SINGLE VERSE FROM ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS SCRIPTURE THAT TALKS SUCH BEAUTY AS THE QURAN.

FURTHER MORE IF YOU OPEN YOUR MIND YOU WOULD SEE THAT WOMANS RIGHTS WERE ONLY ESTABLISHED THIS CENTURY, PRIOR TO THAT WOMAN WAS DISREGARDED IN EVERY CULTURE EVEN THE WESTERN.

Again editor you have brang up the sword verse. You see your pathetic, because you know the historical context of the verse but yet you bring up that single verse to justify your claims. YOUR A MORON

And to the rest of you. Your just a bunch of losers who have to much spare time on your hands saying where is londonspirit or kabir law, they wont reply to this post. We together with other muslims do not need to justify ourselves to you, because your just hate seekers, who just formed a group on how to attack islam and make it look bad. There isnt a single site whereby muslims are attacking religions of other faiths but yet you got people as yourselves who are doing that and than you call yourself civilized.

PATHETIC

Foolish Londonspirit trying to justify wife beating. The Shariah laws are a disgrace to mankind. These people nbelong in jail.

to GOOD ATHESIST no where was i trying to justify wife beating. Wife beating is wrong and shouldnt happen out of aggression or due to you just feeling like it. Nowhere does the quran state that wife should be beaten to your desire. Rtahe rif you were to read my post which i dont think you did you would have said what the prophet said on that matter and what the quran teaches in regards to mens behavious towards woman. So you are the foolish one not me

Londonspirit:
"The verse only allows light beating if the attempts to resolve the matter fails on two occassions. Once after communication and the other after neglect. Than as a last resort you are to beat lightly. Why I say lightly because if you read the end of the verse you would see it say not to transgress. And if you read other verses about transgressing you would see that allah hates the transgressors."

Then you say wife beating is wrong. I dont know who is more confused, you or me.

OK Londonspirit, you say that beating (lightly) of wife is permitted if the attempts to resolve the matter fails on two occassions. The same verse asks men to refuse sharing bed with wife. Refer to Quran and tell us what a wife should do if the husband transgresses? For example, he is allowed to have other women as sex slaves (WAR BOOTY) and it is perfectly halal according to Quran. I am sure your wife, if you have one, will not like your having concubines. Disgusting, isn't it? What if a husband is preying on someone else and his wife notices it? What should the wife do according to Quran? If Allah believes in equal rights, then Quran should advocate the beating of transgressing husbands "lightly". If Quran doesn't say that then Allah aka pedophile Muhammad is stupid. Wodousay?

An incident I experienced when I was in the Middleeast.

I was about to leave the country having completed my project, hence I decied to have a garage sale to get rid of my paraphenelia.

An Arab couple walked in, and they wanted my washing machine, therefor I took the payment and then waited for them to take the object to their car. For some reason an arguement broke up between them. To my astonishment the husband ended up giving the wife a thunderous slap across the face and continued taking the machine to the car. The wife with lots of displeasure in her face followed the man.

I had trouble sleeping that night, nonetheless, did not expect an atom of expectations that my future husband would treat me the same way.

This was enough for me to question Islam.

Is wife beating confined to only flirting with other men:what about the beating she gets because she didnot agree with him for something else like how to spend their money or their children's education.Those kinds of cases also happen.

LondonSpirit, Let me explain what I saw the beauty of and of what I do not see the beauty of in your posts. To you and other readers. First of all, Quran 4;34 is a sore weak spot in the Quran and I agree with the editor and the other posters about that. But you explained how alcohol plays a big role in wife-beating and how you see how it should be countered. And in my country there is now a big campaign against domestic violence and many Muslims are doing their part in this campaign, even as you, using Islamic faith to condemn wife-beating. That is what I respected and saw the beauty of.

How I view you, LS? To me you are always respectful and I appreciate that. And I am for democracy worldwide and therefore against an Islamic system that would topple that, that would blockade that in Islamic countries. And very precious to me is eternal, omnipresent freedom of speech, which you yourself use so well. I wish with all my heart that someday you will use your passion and skills against theocrats and misogynists, in the service of a reformed democratic Islam. Maybe against a raging other religion, maybe against the Scientologists, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, if they want to take away (y)our autonomy?

Here is an excerpt of a very recent article on Islam Watch called:
"Muslim Apologetics on ‘Authenticity’ of the Quran"
(I recognize you and Kabirlaw and other Muslims on this website, like now The Truth on The Challenge, in this description.)

“There is a new wave of young intelligent Muslim apologists in Western societies trying to defend the Quran and Islam. We, as ex-Muslims, atheists and antitheists, must understand their workings and techniques, and seek out ways to counter them in best possible way. Simple anti-Islamic rhetoric is insufficient to stop this genus of people, who are striving hard to pursue the goals of Islam. In my view, these apologists are our strongest adversaries. I encourage everyone to study the arguments they present, and expose their fallacies. Ex-Muslims and antitheists must confront them with logical and well-laid arguments and show them their folly.
To defeat Islam, we must defeat them first.”

Other people here seem to underestimate you and Kabirlaw, but I recognize how good and effective you 2 can be. I always read your posts well, try to understand them, try to search for the truth above all else. And yes, there is beauty in them, there is beauty in Islam. But you claim it has divine origine. And your real opponents are not Christians, Hindus, Buddhists etc anymore, they are all democratic-inclined people, using their evolved advanced laws and morals, choosing them over a lot of Islam’s laws and morals.

And here is the thing; Divine laws have the “advantage” of coming from a wise, all-knowing God, but they stand still in time, get obsolete. Human laws, on the contrary, have been improved and expanded and humans continue to do so. Perhaps that is God’s fault; He neglects to maintain his laws. He gives them, plans a Armageddon, and in between does nothing. Although an alternative explanation of God’s behavior might be that he is inspiring mankind all the time, and so also all great ideas, laws, morals that evolved after Muhammad.

LS, great to hear from you again.

K4:34"Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. (35)And if ye fear a breach between the twain (the man and wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment Allah will make them of one mind. Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Aware." (Pickthall).

LS: I have re-quoted this verse (4:34) and the following from Pickthall (which seems to be most accurate translation readily available). Having looked at 28 english translations (Online Quran project) I find the following:
Three make no mention of beating in any form at all, 7 speak of beating (or similar) lightly (or similar) and 18 simply use the word "beat" or similar with no modifier.
In the case of the seven with a modified form of beating the use of parentheses indicates that the word is interpolated into the text.
This is supported in that the majority (~2/3) have no such modifier.
Why three translations elide the whole issue I don't know - unless it is to make the Koran "interpretation" more acceptable to non-Muslims.

Thus the majority view of K3:34 is that beating is allowed without limitation.
With regard to this verse you also wrote "...if you read the end of the verse you would see it say not to transgress."
Where does it say anything about "transgressing"? I haven't found that at the end of ANY translation of K4:34 (which is why I also quoted K4:35), so please at least state which translation you use.

Now, to be fair to you, I do agree that if a married couple live together in accordance with the prescriptions of Koran and Sunnah, no such wife beating would occur and that they will love together in "tranqillity".
After all, the wife would be humbly obedient , keep herself covered, not venture out without a 'Mahram', provide sex-on-demand (to avoid the angels' curses) etc.
However, some women actually have a will of their own! And things may go wrong for other reasons too.
So what happens then? Your quotes K9:71 and K30:21 no longer apply. Your other Koranic quote (K4:19) which you use to say that men should not "treat women harshly" does not necessarily support your contention either. Here is the relevant part:
"...Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them..."
The key word here is "that". A man should not (note, the Koran does NOT say MUST NOT) treat a women harshly to get back part of the dowry he has given her.
It does not say men should not treat women harshly in a blanket sense.
So then, we fall back on the Hadith.
Here I agree with you that they clearly state that a man should not beat his wife, but should treat her with honour and kindness.
However, I regard you as having weakened your own argument by the Tirmithi quote "The best of you is one who is best towards his family and I [Mohammed] am best towards the family” since in another Hadith Mohammed hit Aisha. Therefore the "best" behaviour towards the family is to hit your wife even if you should not "beat" her. Perhaps this means that only a single (painful) blow may be struck?

You then wrote:"But if a point does arise whereby the man is cruel to his wife and beats her due to trangression than the quran gives the following verse:
'And if a wife fears cruelty or desertion from her husband, there is no blame on them if they reconciliate them, reconciliation between them is far better, and souls are prone to avarice. But if you do good and are God fearing then surely God is aware of what you do-' (Qur’an 4:128)"
So, a woman's recourse if she fears cruelty is reconciliation? According to this verse even if she is treated cruelly she should not use this as a cause for "automatic" divorce.
This is put into practice in Sharia divorce courts where, if the woman brings a petition, she is often required to return to her abusive partner and try to affect a reconciliation (and often more than once) before the (Islamic) divorce is granted. (From a TV program on "Sharia in the UK").

Now, I have looked through your post in detail and it gives little or no support to your contentions.
Taken overall, it would seem that a from the Koran and Hadith quotes you have used and following the example of Mohammed with Aisha:
1. a man is (at minimum) allowed to hit his wife (once only perhaps) hard enough to cause pain (how much we don't know) when she gives him offence.
2. A woman suffering from, or anticipating cruelty from, her husband is expected to attempt reconciliation.
This is certainly NOT a bad thing in principle, though it results in muslim women being sent back to abusive husbands to attempt this.

That said, LS, I am delighted that you personally repudiate wife-beating and I respect your attempt to strip Islam of this egregious attitude, but I don't think that your quotes do so. I think that it will require a more radical reform of Islam, or perhaps I mean Islamic thinking, to do this.

You point about sufferage is well taken, LS. But here is the rub (also mentioned by Demsci). In the West our laws on sufferage, equality etc are evolving as we genuinely reasile the fundamental equality of the sexes.
Neither your religion nor your laws (Sharia) do, and because they are 'divine' in origin, they are not amenable to change.
Therefore Islam locks in the inequalities for all time.
Out of interest LS, would you deny that the Islamic societies around the World are the most patriarchal ones remaining?
---
Returning to Saad Haqqui's point that this verse offers a kinder alternative to killing your wife.
I think he has a point. Anyone who reads/listens to/watches the news is aware of "honour-killing" (a brilliant mis-nomer).
I suppose that the sort of Mussalman that Haqqui is(or is referring to) would feel justified in killing his wife if he thought she had "dishonoured" him, so perhaps a really good beating that stopped her before he felt dishonoured might actually save her life.
Of course, this line of reasoning says a lot more about the man (a loosely used term here) than the woman. But it is the sort of perverse reasoning that has been met in these cases (amongst others).
---
Secularist: your incident was enlightening. Note how it fits with my points above. A single, painful slap - how like Mohammed.
---
Demsci:
Your point about laws is excellent.
A consequence of this is that we face a stark choice: either Islam (and its laws) are totally correct in all aspects (after all anything "of God" must be perfect by definition); or, if a single one of the "revealed" laws is proven wrong then Islam itself is not "of God" since it is imperfect.
It then follows that "Allah" is not God and thus Mohammed is not a prophet of God.
This then begs the question: Is there one example where non-Sharia laws are objectively and demonstrably superior to Sharia laws?

Beating women is never ok - whether mohammed said so or not

Please could any UK people support this. Thanks

Universal Children’s Day and International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women - 21 November 2009 in London, England
http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/universal-childrens-day-and-international...

SECULARIST: you wrote an incident whereby a man slapped a woman whilst you were in the gulf, and that was enough for you to question islam. Did you know the following facts:

1. two countries, india and china which consists of 1/3 of the world population practice killing featuses once they are identified as female. These countries are not muslim nations.

2. Every 15 seconds in america a woman is getting beaten by her husband or partner and america is not a muslim nation.

If you want references go to articles on this site and than go to beating up woman for allah. Now by the time i have finished this post 12 woman have been beaten in america. Shocking statistics. Yet america is the most democratic an so called country that heavily practices woman rights and yet it presents such a shocking statistics. Isnt that enough for me to question christianity and the democratic law.

WOMAN according to Islam is just a THING. A thing to be screwed, to be tilled, to be sold, to be bought, to be raped, to be used as and how any Muslim male Pig wants to : just like their Pedo Prophet MoHamMad the Pig was doing:Sunnah. Ha Ha ha ha

Can any Muslim Pig tell me , what are the other uses of any WOMAN? I mean Muslim or Infidel Woman.( covered or un-covered Meat)

I am sure Muslim pigs don't have any mother (as mother means some woman) They are a product of some Muslim male Pig just like their pedo. prophet. MoHamMad. Ha Ha Ha Ha Pooped out of some Muslim male Pig's rectum just like MoHamMad the Rasool of Islam. Ha Ha Ha ha Who was Pooped out of Allah the Pimp God of Muslims' rectum.

MoHamMad the Sh!t of Allah Dalla the Pimp God of Islam.

JONC seriously dont know what your trying to get at, by trying to manipulate the quranic verses. You have made some pointless arguments, which shows you will never accept what I am saying. Let me give you an example

If i was to say the following:
1. I respect my wife and love her and i treat her as my best friend.
2. i look after her and clothe her and treat her to the same meals that i have.
3. I am the best to my wife
4. i treat her with dignity and if matter arise whereby we fight i try to reconciliate the matter by talking with her and if that doesnt work i avoid her and than as a last resort i put matters into my own hands but if she listens i dont do nothing to her but yet again treat her with dignity and love.
5. If she feels unhappy with the marriage than she is freely able to leave.

If iI WAS TO SAY THESE STATEMENTS TO YOU OR ANYONE ELSE WAS TO SAY IT YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS SITE WOULD SAY WHAT A ROMANTIC GENTLE MAN I AM AND A CARING HUSBAND TO MY WIFE.

But the second i add the word ISLAM and this is how ISLAM requires a husband to treat his wife than you become biased and you question every bit of it. You are fools attempting to dislodge and create a society that is full of hatred. You are just like the BNP, First they start on asian migration and hatred towards all asians, than they start hate campaigns against the blacks and now they start hate campaigns towards muslims, and than i nthe near future they will start hate campaigns against all religions.

Likewise prior to 9/11 you lived amonst muslims, but you hated something else. Now this is just a new agenda for you.

PEACE MATE AND STOP BASHING ISLAM WHEN IT TEACHES RIGHT. WHY DONT YOU FIND AND I SAY THIS AGAIN AND AGAIN, FIND A SINGLE VERSE FROM ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS MAN AND WOMAN ARE EQUAL AND THAT THEY HAVE RIGHTS. PLEASE ANYONE

Hi Lund-on spirit; Blame all my comments on your pedo. prophet Mo. whose Sunnah you Male MuslimPigs are following. I love you pigs, as Pigs are delicious. I wish some cartoonist draw a cartoon of Pedo. Mo getting Sodomized by some dirty Pig.

Fact is ; When Rasool MoHamMad got Sodomized by a pack of dirty wild Pigs he gave birth to the vilest of all killing Cults called ISLAM.

Now are you a Muslim or a Human? You can't be both at the same time. Ha Ha Ha

Ask your mentor Jerk off Zakir Naik. Baby.

POKEMADINA: SHUT UP

LondonSpirit,

Are you interested in truth or propaganda? Propaganda is easy, truth requires hard work. About your 1st point in post 24995 you were right, and Muslims don't do this. But China by now has realised it's mistakes and now gives bonuses to families with girls. I am sure the Indians will come to their senses soon too.

About the Americans and the Western world in general; I think their laws are good and in place. Now the American authorities and police, and health services too, are at last, taking rape and domestic violence very seriously. Helping the victims in a broad and good way, I hear, and this is happening in Holland too.

However, now a huge can of worms is opened, which the public and the UN statistics on which you rely, was previously not aware of. Victims, who used to suffer in silence, now come forward. The police painstakingly record it. Rape and domestic violence probably are universal human, or human male, behavior, and it did happen before but was only recorded partially and not measured.

But many countries lag behind America, UK, Holland, other Western countries in respect to give reaction to rape, domestic violence high priority. Now does this mean that it does happen a lot less in their countries, OR that it does happen, maybe even more, but does not get reported to the police, or registered by the police, is an open question. I showed you a video by Sameer about Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA) where it was made clear that a 19-year old victim of rape was sentenced to lashes and jail, with the result that another rape victim stayed silent and tried to get an abortion and was apprehended because of that. Now if a rape-victim is treated like a criminal and that is known, then the next victims are not going to the police, and the police are not going to record, report it and the rapes in KSA are not being recorded, or punished, like they are in USA!

So while we have no conclusive proof of Occurrence of rape/ domestic violence in Islamic countries, you have no conclusive proof of Non-Occurrence of rape/ domestic violence in those countries. So you just have no point against America. In due time, the whole truth will come out and you know what we suspect.

One last point; there are 440.000 reported victims of rape per year in a USA of 305.000.000 people, how high a % is that? 0,14 %!

LS comment #24997:
I hope you would say all that about your wife. And I will grant that you are a gentle man (and probably a gentleman to boot) and a caring and loving husband. As for being a romantic ... not my place to comment!
Indeed I said I was "... delighted that you personally repudiate wife-beating..."
(If I wanted to be picky I might ask what you meant by "put matters into my own hands", but let that pass.)

It is not my contention that Muslims can't be all the things (and more) that you wrote - I am sure they can, it is that Islam sanctions a certain level of wife-beating.

Further, I'd not dispute that wife-beating occurs (perhaps is prevalent in) many non-muslim countries. Now, we are both Brits, so we both know there are criminal laws against domestic violence in UK which treats it the same as assault. That not all Brits obey the law is also indisputable and down to individual nature (sinfulness if you wish).
---
Question: does Shariah law catagorically forbid wife-beating of all degrees?

If you look at the Hadith you quoted about how Mo treated his wives and add the Aisha Hadith, you find that he hit his favourite and caused her pain. Mohammed also says he (Mo) is the best to his family (see above posts).
Therefore (unless Mo lies, which he can't - being God's 'perfect' prophet) the "best" attitude to one's family permits hitting the wife and causing her pain.
There are other Hadith: Abu Dawd 2141, 2142; Muslim 2127 (the Aisha incident), 3506; Bukhari 7:132, which show Mohammed either supporting or tolerating violence against women.
Ipso facto: a limited amount of wife beating permitted through following Mohammed's "Sunnah" (example).
This is reflected in that a number of translations(or 'interpretations') interpolate "lightly" etc into the text of K3:34 to show that the permission to beat has limits.
Some scholars claim a "light" beating is: one that does not break bones (Ibn Kathir), or one that does not wound (Al Nawawi, Sheikh Muhammad Kamal Mustafa).
The point here is that the scholars, whilst limiting wife-beating do not repudiate it.
(This also shows how hard it is to understand the Koran without Tafseer, Hadith etc. On it's own the verse merely reads "beat" or "scourge" without any qualifier at all.)

Thus it seems to me that Islam itself permits wife-beating according to Koran, Hadith and Tafseer.

PS It pains me when posters here abuse you personally, LS, you do not deserve it.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/08/31/a-note-from-a-secularist/

Hello Londonspirit,

This is my story on FFI. Please read it when you have time.

The slap the woman received, at that time did not drive me away from Islam as I was ignorant at the time. My personnel experience drove me from Islam and question it, as actions such as wife beating is quite clearly encouraged in the scriptures.

This is exactly what my husband practiced to the extent that I threatned him of running to the Police if this ever occurs again.

DEMSCI WROTE: Are you interested in truth or propaganda? Propaganda is easy, truth requires hard work.

ANSWER: Ask that question yourself. I am interested in the truth. And the truth is America has the highest rate of crime. That is the absolute truth. It is the most democratic society but yet it holds a great rate of crime than a few european countires put together. Yet we dont blame christianity or any other form of religion for its highest rape crime, highest adultry rate, highest bugalry rate, highest murdering rate.

Nor do we blame buddism or hinduism for chinas and india's highest rate of female killings. You ask yourself are this statistics comparable to islamic nations. And like I have siad to you before yes we can use these statistics especially with 1st world islamic states such as saudia arabia, jordan, UAE, oman, egypt. We may not use it not so much in countries like bangladesh or pakistan, But we should at least compare the greatest democratic nation with the nation that practice shariah to its full extent. And like i said to you demsci go compare statistics between saudia arabia and america and lets see who comes up on the top of every evil act than only than will we know the TRUTH. Like it says on the X-FILES THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE. SO LETS SEEK IT. START THE COMPARISON.

DEMSCI WROTE: I showed you a video by Sameer about Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA) where it was made clear that a 19-year old victim of rape was sentenced to lashes and jail, with the result that another rape victim stayed silent and tried to get an abortion and was apprehended because of that. Now if a rape-victim is treated like a criminal and that is known, then the next victims are not going to the police, and the police are not going to record, report it and the rapes in KSA are not being recorded, or punished, like they are in USA!

ANSWER: Demsci ask your self why she got the lashes and sentanced in jail. Do you know the saudi law of rape?.
The reason she got sentenced and lashes was because of the following reason:

Saudi Arabia has condemned Western interference in the case of a rape victim who was sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in prison.

The Saudi Justice Ministry today confirmed that the flogging sentence would be carried out after the 19-year-old admitted to cheating on her husband in violation of Islamic laws.

For the full story go to::
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570495/Saudi-Arabia-defends-s...

The girl cheated on her husband and further presented herself in a situation whereby she would get raped. She got lashes primarily for adultry and for also meeting her boyfriend alone. She knows very well that the shariah law states

''Under Saudi Arabia's strict interpretation of Islamic Sharia law, women are not allowed in public in the company of men other than their male relatives.''

So now DEMSCI ask yourself do rape victims present themselves if they literally did get raped under their own influence or did they present themselves to a serious or a single guy that allowed the rape to commence. Any way i dont think you will agree on me upon this so lets skip rape out the question and focus on other matters and lets see which nation holds the highest statistics in criminal affairs.

London spirit,
In Islamic countries they call a crime something else...eg. prostitution is called temporary marriage. In a single second the Muslims found a solution to the world's oldest profession. But it is still prostitution. LOL.
In reality these countries would have the world's highest crime rate if the same standard was applied across all nations.

And Mohammad would be the most wanted criminal by Interpol.
Thank You

Was reading about Roman Polanski...

Roman Polanski, the controversial director arrested in Switzerland last week after more than 30 years on the run from US courts, has long flirted with danger. But there may be no escape this time.

Londonspirit, where is your reply to Comment ID #24926???????

Kindly do not insult pigs by calling moslem pigs. Pigs are any day better than moslems. Thank you.
Moslems fool ( at least think they do) every one including allah the pimp.
1.Example 1. Sex out sid marriage is prohibited by the pimp allah( wonder why the pimp should cut his own business?) Moslem scum bags have found jawaz al matta( temporary marriage) to circumvent the obstacle to the dik!
2.No riba or interest! Great the moslem scum bags have a better trick, They will buy the goods worth say $ 100 and resell it to you for $ 120 payable over 12 months at 10$ a month! Allah the dumbest pimp ca not even recognise what a fool he has been! They dont call it as interest but as assistance charges.
3.Allah said marry 4 women and moslem scum bags keep deleting th e ugly or the older cow form the list they have nad keep the harem halal, just like the dumb pimp said!
4.Ramadan time.Sun rise to sun set allah thepimp says dont eat or drink and the moslem pigs turn the life upside down.Sleep through the day and be awake at night and binge all night.The funny part is the all knowing pimp does not and can not stop being fooled!
5.Moslems scum bags lie to allah the pimp and so did mohammad the rapist

Hello, LondonSpirit, it was very good of you to react so relevant + extensively to the video about the "19-year-old-rape-victim-that-deterred-the-23-year-old-rape-victim-from-reporting."

The article opened another can of wurms, like why should adultery be punished by law? Another choice no democratic society ever made, only Turkey came close to it recently. And why the hell can't a woman, married or not, be with someone of the other gender in public? Is this the kind of shit we can expect when Islam takes over a country, or a district? Furthermore, in Western countries, the rape by the gang of both woman and man, THAT would of course have taken precedence in Democratic countries. It would create a public outcry if the rape-victim would have even been reprimanded in the slightest for being alone with another man, committing adultery. Now it looks as if she deserved to be raped according to Saudi Justice Department, as if they say; Look, when you commit adultery, are with an unauthorised man, the law no longer protects you! Probably the 23-year-old also did something that was wrong in Saudi justice department-eyes, then got rape and pregnant.

But as you said we won't agree on the statistics of rape any time soon. So I await further substantion of your claim that America is the most criminal nation on earth. and all comparisons with KSA (Kingdom S.Arabia) are very welcome.

PK,

Although you do not ascribe to providing proof for your claims and you operate under the strategy of "Shame and Ridicule" I like to say that your post 25110, was very funny! And quite challenging to Muslims. Particularly exchanging the "old cow" made me laugh out loud.

I dont know why you lots expect me to reply to every single post. When I sleep, the next morning i wake up there is a bombardment of messages. Now do you expect me to sit in front of the computer all day long replying to your meaningless posts. (i.e. ratiopnalist). I will give a example of your stupid discussions:

This example is from GOOD ATHESIST

''In Islamic countries they call a crime something else…eg. prostitution is called temporary marriage.(25073)''

What kind of dumb lame lie is that. You see this is just purely due to the hate of islam that he could type in something so stupid like that. Mr. Good atheist prositution is illigal in islam and their is a strict punishment for that kind of act.

Further more to PROUD KAFIR COMMENTS:

1.Example 1. Sex out sid marriage is prohibited by the pimp allah( wonder why the pimp should cut his own business?) Moslem scum bags have found jawaz al matta( temporary marriage) to circumvent the obstacle to the dik!

ANSWER: This doesnt exist in islam. Read islamic texts on this matter, you dumb fool.

2.No riba or interest! Great the moslem scum bags have a better trick, They will buy the goods worth say $ 100 and resell it to you for $ 120 payable over 12 months at 10$ a month! Allah the dumbest pimp ca not even recognise what a fool he has been! They dont call it as interest but as assistance charges.

ANSWER: Mate that is called trade. You buy at one price and you sell at a higher price to your consumers. And the bit where you pay monthly that is called installements. It is not called interest you dumb fool.

Interest is like for example you give someone a loan and than you charge a rate of say 10% per month. That is called interest you fool.

3.Allah said marry 4 women and moslem scum bags keep deleting th e ugly or the older cow form the list they have nad keep the harem halal, just like the dumb pimp said!

ANSWER: Go to the quran verse an read the section about marraige of four woman. You pig. You can only marry if your capable if not marry just One.

4.Ramadan time.Sun rise to sun set allah thepimp says dont eat or drink and the moslem pigs turn the life upside down.Sleep through the day and be awake at night and binge all night.The funny part is the all knowing pimp does not and can not stop being fooled!

ANSWER: you dont even fast you fool. So how do you know. If we sleep all day than how do we support our family, if we sleep all day than how do we pray our zuhr and asr salah, if we sleep all day than how do we do our zikr. Your a fool to state such stupidness. And muslims dont drink so how do we binge all night. If we binge all nioght than when do we get time to pray taraweh. If we binge all night than when do we get time to wake up at 3am to eat and get ready for the fasting day. Your again a fool to quote such stupidness.

5.Moslems scum bags lie to allah the pimp and so did mohammad the rapist

ANSWER: we will surely find out this answer when we die.

DEMSCI WROTE: like why should adultery be punished by law? Another choice no democratic society ever made, only Turkey came close to it recently. And why the hell can’t a woman, married or not, be with someone of the other gender in public?

ANSWER: You ask why?. firstly i would like to say if its a law in a country and is punished strictly than dont do it. Secondly if your wife was seeing me behind your back and you loved her very much and also you had 3 kids with her. When you find out that she has been sleeping with me and i had bore an illigitamate child with her. Whta kind of pain would you be in and furthermore and most importantly what kind of pain would the children be in.

Islam thinks about the other party. Many cases of adultry lead to suicide of the other partner and adultry also leads to children suffering and worse of all adultry leads to what we tend to call BASTARDS. In the UK there are so many children homes and alot of these kids turn to a life of crime because of no love of their parents. Now why is their so many children homes in america and UK but their is a low number in saudia arabia. I tell you why because of the law of adultry.

DEMSCI WROTE: Now it looks as if she deserved to be raped according to Saudi Justice Department, as if they say; Look, when you commit adultery, are with an unauthorised man, the law no longer protects you! Probably the 23-year-old also did something that was wrong in Saudi justice department-eyes, then got rape and pregnant.

ANSWER: Demsci did you read the article in full. Cause if you did you would have known WHY she recieved those lashes. It was not because she got raped, it was because she broke 3 laws. 1st. Meeting up with former lover, which obviously led to adultry, 2nd. being with an unknown man. 3rd. presenting her self to being raped.

The rape is so low is Saudia arabia, ask yourself why?. Why do you think woman must not walk alone but must walk with another female company, why do you think the law states that woman shouldnt be alone with unknown man.

Ask yourself is the rape count in saudia arabia low due to these aspects or is it low because the law prescribes a very harsh punishment.

Namaste

I am a Hindu, and fiercly defend Dharmic paths, Hinduism (real name is Sanatan Dharma- Universal law/path/truth), Sikh Dharma, Buddha Dharma, Jain Dharma as well as Pagan paths and native/animist systems of knowledge, and I strongly oppose islam and all Abrahamic ideologies that are nothing but spiritually blind tyrannies, however, I deplore the way some people talk to LondonSpirit and other Muslims here. To insult people as pigs etc is not civilised. Unlike Koran that calls Jews Pigs, we must be better than the ones we oppose. Respectfully addressing people goes a much longer way to have your message heard. Muslims are victims of relentless indoctrination and brain washing/mind control from birth and thus it makes it very difficult to "deprogramm them". Islam is the most effective and destructive cult ever devised, so to try to break free is very hard. especially when the penalty to dare to think differently or disagree is death, and that fear of hell during the whole life of a muslim...terrible life indeed, however, the best act of kindness we can offer our muslim brothers is to help them break free and reject islam. And this cannot achieved with insults, as it only retrenches the person further into defensive mode, and thus into a "defending the un-defendable".
In response LondonSpirit's affirmation that no islamic site denigrates other religions/faiths...that is totally wrong. I have been on many islamic sites and forums where all non muslims are denigrated, cursed and showed nothing but hatred for them.
But most of all, the so called "holy" book of islam cannot stop denigrating the "non believers" nevermind the fact that they actually believe, in their own faith....The Koran is obsessed with "non-muslims" and why? because a book compiled from the whims of a xenophobe, megalomaniac and paranoid deluded mind is more worried about those who "oppose" him than anything else.
So not only do islamic sites denigrate other faiths, but the koran itself and sunna do!

So now I have a challenge for the muslims: You say islam is a religion of peace: PROVE IT!

1/ Stop all attacks on non muslims such as Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, atheists AND apostates.

2/ Defend your lands wrongly invaded by foreign powers NOT in the name of islam, but in the rights of your own sovereignity, and do this via proper diplomatic channels and only use force as last resort.

3/ If your faith in islam, Allah and Mohammed is truly deeply secure in your own hearts and souls, then criticism of them should not touch you at all, and wash over you as water washes over a duck's feathers, secure in your faith. Just carry on your worship and your life, unaffected, without hysterical reactions and mindless rioting.

4/ Lastly, practice your faith privately, and befriend all humans as brothers/sisters wherever they are from/their faith is, as ACTIONS speak louder than words. Lead by exemple. Maybe then, islam will be taken more seriously, but until you PROVE the "peace" of islam, by the above steps, islam will not have any credibility and less still if you continue to use violence, insults, oppression and threats, as these only show and serve the nature of intolerant fascistic ideologies...

Unity can only be achieved through Diversity, and NEVER through exclusivity, as exclusivity is against the laws of Dharma/Universe/Divine cousciousness.

Aum Shanti - Peace

Yes, yes, LondonSpirit, in your response to me you are making sense.

I am not saying I agree with you mind you, but I see the logic in your position. The theory is logical, but does it translate to a good reality? Of course we would like to see Saudi Arabia to try to show how good an Islamic society could be, after all it is the country where Islam originated, with the holy places of Mecca and Medina. I saw the TV-show you mentioned with the lady in Saudi Arabia talking to the people there and that often looked positive.

Yes, I see the problems with the children you mention in our society and I can conceive that the law of adultery may be helpful in giving children a youth with both their parents. But I myself believe that it should be possible to have single mams and divorce, and that adultery is none of the state's business. Your price is too high to pay.

Yes, I can conceive it possible that women get less raped in Saudi Arabia, because of this Islamic system. But I still choose the free democratic system, with ever changing and improving laws. Again, your price is too high to pay.

I was thinking to let Saudi Arabia do this and also eventually making sure that people would live there voluntarily. Letting eventually leave all those in favor of other democratic laws, letting in all those from democratic countries that like to live under Islamic laws. So that both these, apparently conflicting, systems of organising societies can coexist on Earth peacefully. And be properly compared. But now the anti-apostasy-laws in KSA simply is barbaric, outrageous, blatantly unfair and totally unacceptable.

On a lighter note; I saw on CNN: Going green, Eco Pioneers, Greening the Desert, it is on www.cnn.goinggreen. It already happens in Morocco and Jordan. Also in Israel. Imagine if Saudi Arabia did that! Peace.

LondonSpirit has got guts. Everyone attacked him, insulted his beloved prophet and religion and yet he firmly stood his ground and made his points without resorting to four letter words. This guy is an interesting character. Unfortunately he is a naive brainwashed Muslim whose logic makes no sense at all. eg...He responded to my comment of temporary marriages being prostitution by stating prostitution is illegal. Yes LondonSpirit, we know that, but is is temporary marriage prostitution? What is the difference? Dont you think you should have addressed that ?
You also made no sense when Demsci commented on the lashing of a 23 year old girl. You explained she broke the law and thus deserved the lashings. We know she broke the law but Do those laws meet your moral standards? Is'nt that what you should be explaining.

Demci,

What an awesome response to LS and K:-) I too read to understand the refute their claims, and believe your assertion the their real opponents are all free democratic governments and people.

LS, I do not care if you believe you book only calls for a light beating of a woman, if any man or attempts to beat me, even with a wet noodle, I will press charges against them.

LS, you claim "
Koran 4:34 is a Pre-Emptive Strike. It prevents you from killing your wife !!

Posted by admin on 10/02/09 • Categorized as Letters

FFI has published a first part of our correspondence with Mr. Saad Haqqui. Readers can read the first part Here

This is the second part of this correspondence. We wanted to narrow our discussion to one Koranic verse at a time. We started with verse 4:34 which sanctions beating your wife. This was the first verse we wanted to discuss. Here is what we wrote to him:

1. Qur’an 4:34 clearly sanctions hitting a woman, by the divine ordinance of Allah. Do you accept that verse as divine. Do you think that the almighty creator will sanction a man beating his wife? Now, verse 4:34 is one of the most evil verses in the Koran in my view. Do not try to claim that the hitting should be done with a feather or a Siwak. That is nonsense. Pleas watch this:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/09/25/hit-them-quran-434/

and this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&hl=en&v=iWGA8i6scYY

Now, tell me that verse 4:34 is not an evil verse “coming down” from an evil prophet.

I have other verses for you, but I want to start with this verse. I await your response. No need for you to discuss other things in your email other than this verse. I hope that you are an honest person in your search for the truth, and not just trying to defend a man who does not deserve to be defended.

Thank you

Editor

Mr. Haqqui was forthright and honest in his response. He admits the the verse does indeed sanctions giving the wife a good beating. However, this is a pre-emptive strike, and for a good reason, which prevents the man from killing his wife! Here is his email:

dunno what kind of scholars this guy has consulted, and why they gave such lame excuses like miswak or hadkerchief, u guys live in 21st century and u dont know about a pre-emptive strike?? well here is an example…
you have a wife who goes out quite often to the market
you know that she is exceptionally flirtatious with a certain guy who is also flirtatious with her, you dont know how long this has been going on and dont know what exactly is going on between them.
so one day you sit her down and talk to her,” listen i know you and that guy are flirting each other a bit too much for my comfort, so stop it” and so on…
it doesnt stop, but neither did you catch them actually at it..
so you stop sleeping with her at night and tell her why it is so…
it still doesnt stop in fact now your wife stands up to you and begins defending that guy also going as far as to say that that guy is a lot more man than you..
she even says so what if i sleep with the guy, whats it to you?
wont you even beat her now???
and believe me i know of many such incidents with the sole exceptions that the guys actually killed their wives, now, what do you think about the verse now???
islam actually stops you from killing your wives until proven that she is sleeping out.
and unlike in western countries, people usually marry only once in their life in the sub-continent, and when your wife is sleeping with another, people dont think like, what the hell, there are many more. they are actually devastated.

Here is our editor’s response to Mr. Haqqui:

Dear Sir, thank you for you email. You have admitted that the verse does indeed sanction giving the wife a good beating. I am sure that when this part of the correspondence is published, our readers will have a “Hay Ride Day” dissecting what you said. In any case, please allow me to mention the following:

a) Verse 4:34 allows beating the wife in certain conditions. If the reverse was true, can the wife give the husband a good beating? As you know some husbands will flirt with other women, and they won’t listen and obey the wife when she warns them. Is that a good enough reason for the wife to give her husband some beating. Maybe that will make him aware of his errors. If the Koran is to be fair to the man and the woman, the woman should have a right to do that in certain circumstances. However, we have one problem. There is no verse that sanctions beating the man. It is only the woman who is on the receiving end. For this reason Mr. Haqqui, I hope reincarnation is true, and you will be reborn as a good Muslimah married to a good wife-beater. Maybe then you will see how it feels to be on the receiving end of the beating.

b) Your suggestion about being able to beat your wife to avoid killing her is just ludicrous. There are situations where the inevitable end of the marriage is at sight. In such situations, a divorce is in order. The man will go his way, and the woman will also go her way. No harm done. The solution is not in killing another human being Mr. Haqqui, or even beating him/her, no matter what the problem of the marriage is. Divorce is a very civil and practical solution.

I will end our discussion of verse 4:34 here and leave it to you and the readers to comment on this verse. I still believe it is an evil verse. I have shown that your justification for verse 4:34 is not warranted. There are better alternatives. If a man beats his wife, I do not care who he is, He does not deserve to live in a civil society. This is why civil countries prosecute and imprison such individuals.

1.

Let me move, if I may, to discuss with you another verse. This is called the verse of the sword. This verse was on my mind, but was also suggested to me by one of our readers. Here is the verse:

فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ وَخُذُوهُمْ وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُواْ لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَآتَوُاْ الزَّكَاةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (9:5)

Here is the verse in English. Please read it carefully:

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Muslims wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Well, what do you think Mr. Haqqui? If you say I gave you the wrong verse you are partly correct. I just took the Koranic verse and changed one word in it. The purpose was to show you how evil that verse is. It is just saturated with evil and hate. I am sure the above verse offended you since it is talking about the Muslims. I am with you. Such a verse should offend any Muslim, and any decent human being for that matter. Well, below is the accurate verse in the Koran. It is also dripping with evil, but this time it is not talking about the Muslims. It is talking about the Pagans.

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Mr. Haqqui, I hope that you can see that verse 9:5 in the Koran is an evil verse indeed, and cannot be divine. Muhammad just wanted to target the pagans for his hate and his killing sprees. I await your response regarding this verse.

Important note regarding verse (9:5): I invite you to read a debate on this verse. Here is the link:

http://www.islam-watch.org/MA_Khan/Challenge-to-Close-Islam-watch-Debate...

Please do read this debate. I think anyone who has interest in understanding the verse of the sword will benefit from reading it.

Regards

Editor

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49 Comments

1.
rationalist Comment ID #24691
October 2, 2009 • 5:26 am

I am sure Haqqui won’t respond to this. What about Kabirlaw and Londonspirit? Where are they hiding????
2.
g-blade Comment ID #24695
October 2, 2009 • 6:27 am

rationalist
Comment ID #24691
October 2, 2009 • 5:26 am says:

“I am sure Haqqui won’t respond to this. What about Kabirlaw and Londonspirit? Where are they hiding????”

I say:
They are here my friend, they’re in disguise.
3.
proudkafir Comment ID #24701
October 2, 2009 • 7:00 am

May be the two are in to molesting children and so in a kafir country behind bars?
Typical moscums.Wife beating is pre emptive strike to prevent her from being killed!
Why not pre emptively strike the black stone holy kabba and nuke moslems ?
4.
plain talk Comment ID #24711
October 2, 2009 • 7:56 am

You could say, in a way, she does get to strike back. As it says in the Bible “an eye, for an eye”. This does not mean to go and pluck someones eye out. It means in equal measure.

As people get to choose and decide, they should be aware all people are actually choosing for themself. If you gift another with kindness and compassion, well then, you have just gifted it to yourself.
Angry; and decide a family member needs to be beaten? Again, you have just chosen for yourself. An eye, for an eye.

This is fair.
5.
Secularist Comment ID #24728
October 2, 2009 • 9:51 am

What a Moron :( ((

I pity the woman who’d marry or married to this paerson. This is exactly what made me choose the free path from Islam.

BTW, what was Allah almighty doing during the Tsunami and the earth quake??

He’s suppoused to be all powerful and mighty, couldn’t he wave his magic wand and rescue the unfortunate?? Why does lightning have to struck twice in the same region??

Or is it a geological co-incidence??

I’d settle with the latter.

My son was diognosed with a kidney infection thanks to modern science. And I’m ever so greatful to all the Kuffirs who invented excellent medical treatment and giving him that hope in life. If this had been in an Arab country they’d say ‘Inshallah’ and carry on.

Thanks again to all the Kaffirs who helped me get through this tough time.

The secularist from Bavaria.

Thanks.
6.
indian_kufr Comment ID #24746
October 2, 2009 • 11:44 am

I think the Muslims can outsource the beating works to Malaysia. They are very intelligent and clever to define the nots and donots of islam. They will watch every woman waht they drink, whether it is beer or wine. They will check the dress put by the Muslimas inside their hijabs and what not. You will be helped and relieved of the decision making whether to beat or not , if yes how many beatings and what sticks to be used and where should the beating happen. “Everything Muslimas wanted to know about beatings but are ashamed to ask” are available with the Malysian Mullahs and to some extent with Indonesian Clerics.
7.
Light Comment ID #24757
October 2, 2009 • 12:30 pm

Ok so if a husband is flirtatious with a woman (neighbour, secretary, colleague, super market clerk – temptattions for muslim men lurk around every corner), then what can the wife do?

Can she also beat him in a pre-emptive way?

And when he beats her back eventually pacifying her then what?

I find it strange that Allah himself was unable to state clearly that it is pre-emptive?

Logically speaking in the 21 century – why not divorce a spouse who is being immoral, unfaithful or rebellious to the extent, that the husband does not feel he can live with her, sleep with her or talk to her?

Makes more sense rather than beating each other for the remainder part of life.

Why is violence deemed an appropriatye measure to get your point across?

Violence onlys creates fear, threats, disrepect, hate and involuntary submission.
Not exactly the foundation for a healthy marriage between equals.
8.
indiafirst Comment ID #24777
October 2, 2009 • 1:20 pm

Mr. Haqqani put all these conditions like flirting to justify the verse. Are those conditions documented in qoran or elsewhere or he just made them up? Muslim women are beaten up for sillier reasons than this.

If one of the spouse flirts, it is natural for the other to get upset. I wish allah taught muslims more spirituality and how they should conduct themselves in civil socieities than wasting his time on specifiying rules on how muslim men should behave with a flirting wife.

Thats why i find koran very shallow in content, it lacks depth.
9.
Charles Comment ID #24780
October 2, 2009 • 1:24 pm

On what basis Allah chooses one soul as male and another as female from 2 souls?
From where the souls come and how which soul is male and which female?
Female has been taken as booty in Islam. Paradise of allah is harem with 72 virgins? Who are these virgins? Why the souls of virgins have to satisfy the lust of one man, who died after killing innocent non-muslims?
Some plain mathematics and logic.
muhammed told that hell(allah’s) is full of women. Thus almost all women will go to allah’s hell except for 1% or 2 muslimah who happily allowed men to beat them, served the sex and other needs of husbands, allowed husband to be polygamous and take his ‘right hand possession’.
Now say allah made equal number of men and women souls in earth.(As male female ratio is almost equal, and we know using chance or probability that male and female ratio should be 50% each.)
Also as per allah all non-muslims will go to allah’s hell. Thus in allah’s hell non-muslims will have there pairs of almost equal men and women. Also we have extra 90% of muslimah women. Thus non-muslim men has the company of more women in allah’s hell than on earth.

Now who are these 72 virgins? Are they kaffir women, then this means kaffir women without being muslimah can be in allah’s heavan , while all muslimah women will be in allah’s hell.
Ask any women, will she like her husband of boyfriend or lover to be shared with other women? No lady of senses will be happy to share his husband or man with any other woman leave alone other 71 virgins?
The mathematics and logic doesnt sum up.
Also what’s the significance of 72? Why not 10, 100 or many? This number is just absurd taken randomly by muhammed to fool the sex hungry arabs for a ‘HOPE’.
10.
raisin head Comment ID #24787
October 2, 2009 • 1:57 pm

Charles
Allah creates 72 big breasted white women of the same age and 28 white boys when the martyrs get horney for some butt. Like in Afghanistan with some ashnas or bakeeza baki or africaca. O no africaca are allowed in paradise only white women. racism is islamic.
11.
proudkafir Comment ID #24790
October 2, 2009 • 2:15 pm

Men will get the sexual power of 100 men! LOL dont know what exactly allah sorry mohammad wanted to say? The sum of 72 revirginating virgins and 28 boys is 100! The jihadi scum bag can have sex with 100 creatures at a time? Can the jihadi scum bag ejaculate 100 times? Or does it mean jihadi scum bag and moslem scum bags can keep on having an erection till they have polished off all the 72 and 28 boys? Can some pious musalmann explain the meaning ? I am quite interested in pronouncing the shahada.
12.
myLORD Comment ID #24832
October 2, 2009 • 4:40 pm

Beating the wives to prevent the killing?can you believe this xxxxxx?Beating is the beginning step to a killing.better off dead than get beaten everyday.First of all why must beat them ?they are not animals!even animals can be trained without beating.what kind of stupid teaching is this.Its even silly to talk about beating a wife.Somebody out there (mr.saad’s brother,sister,friend or even the neighbor)PLEASE HELP MR.SAAD TO PULL HIS HEAD OUT FROM HIS XXX AND MAIL ME YOUR BANK ACC. NO. I M WILLING TO PAY.(and MR.SAAD DONT BE SURPRISE IF I CAN TELL YOUR WIFE’S ACC NO. CORRECTLY).
13.
The good atheist Comment ID #24839
October 2, 2009 • 5:40 pm

Mr. Haqqui,
You have proven if there is such a thing as the devil, it was Mohammad.
14.
Intelliboy Comment ID #24863
October 2, 2009 • 7:35 pm

The arguments given by Ali Sina / FFI is good.
Mr Haqqui takes the scenerio/case when woman is flirting, but not taking the case when husband itself is flirting. Also just say husband likes to beat women ‘just like that’, daily he comes from work, find the food not to taste, then takes a rod and beats her. What woman can do?
Also these muslims wont tell what a muslim woman do in a sharia country like saudi arabia, where sometimes filipino maid women are raped by husbands. These babrbaric arabs keep or do sex with non-muslim women as ‘right hand possession’, what shall wife do to such husbands.
15.
RAISIN HEAD Comment ID #24865
October 2, 2009 • 7:39 pm

Muhammad was Satan the Devil’s Messiah sura 3:56.
allah said he created muslim women stupid tabari 1:280 and if they allow some man to beat them they are stupid and need to get their stupid butts beaten. There is no way I would allow any man or woman to beat me. It will be me or him. This man is absolutely stupid or the son of stupid.
16.
Moooo Comment ID #24869
October 2, 2009 • 7:47 pm

Intelliboy,

“Also these muslims wont tell what a muslim woman do in a sharia country like saudi arabia, where sometimes filipino maid women are raped by husbands. These babrbaric arabs keep or do sex with non-muslim women as ‘right hand possession’, what shall wife do to such husbands.”

Not just Filipino, but many indonesian were/are tortured and raped by muslim arabs. They often came back to indonesia with bruises, wounds, illegal child, and even dead! As you put it right: “right hand possession” is in practice here.
17.
Moooo Comment ID #24870
October 2, 2009 • 7:49 pm

“I am sure Haqqui won’t respond to this. What about Kabirlaw and Londonspirit? Where are they hiding????”

They are in the well playing with water.
18.
londonspirit Comment ID #24891
October 2, 2009 • 10:53 pm

Bloody hell, your on about this again, wife beating. When will this ever finish. You people love repeating yourself. I left this particular topic unfinished in the previous wife beating debate, which one member of this forum was astounded and shocked( DEMSCI), he saw the beauty of it. The reason it was left unfinished was because no one could respond to it. Actually only one member which was ibnsahr, who kept on saying but it does sanction wife beating.

And now your repeating the same topic again. This editor is a moron.

EDITOR WROTE: a) Verse 4:34 allows beating the wife in certain conditions. If the reverse was true, can the wife give the husband a good beating?

ANSWER: No editor thats not waht the verse states, the verse doesnt say wife beating is allowed in certain conditions nor can the wife give the husband a good beating.

The verse only allows light beating if the attempts to resolve the matter fails on two occassions. Once after communication and the other after neglect. Than as a last resort you are to beat lightly. Why I say lightly because if you read the end of the verse you would see it say not to transgress. And if you read other verses about transgressing you would see that allah hates the transgressors.

So editor answer that?

Further more in regards to wife beating husband. If the couple followed the quran and the sunnah, theroetically this act should never come to surpass. As the quran clearly puts responsibility on the husband the following:

“And the believing men and the believing women, they are the friends of each other, they enjoin good and forbid evil, and establish prayers, and pay the alms, and obey God and His Messenger, these, upon them God will have mercy, indeed, God is almighty, All-wise.” (Qur’an 9:71)

“And among His signs is this; that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your hearts. Verily in that are signs for those who reflect.” (Surah Al Rum, Chapter 30 Verse 21)

“O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them – except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. “ (Surah An Nisa, Chapter 4 Verse 19)

And the hadiths say the following:

Narrated Mu’awiyah al-Qushayri: I went to the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) and asked him: “What do you say (command) about our wives?” He replied: “Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.” (Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 11, Number 2139) “The best of you is one who is best towards his family and I am best towards the family”. (At-Tirmithy). “None but a noble man treats women in an honourable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully”. (At-Tirmithy).

“The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manner and kindest to his wife.”

So therefore if the man follows the quran and the sunnah, a point shouldnt arise whereby the wife beats her husband. But if a point does arise whereby the man is cruel to his wife and beats her due to trangression than the quran gives the following verse:

“And if a wife fears cruelty or desertion from her husband, there is no blame on them if they reconciliate them, reconciliation between them is far better, and souls are prone to avarice. But if you do good and are God fearing then surely God is aware of what you do-” (Qur’an 4:128)

SO MR. EDITOR WHY DONT YOU LOOK THROUGH THIS. UNLIKE YOU I DIDNT TAKE SECTIONS OF A VERSE OUT OF CONTEXT TO JUSTIFY MY CLAIMS. ANSWER THIS AND ALSO DO EVERYONE A FAVOUR HERE BY BRINGING UP A SINGLE VERSE FROM ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS SCRIPTURE THAT TALKS SUCH BEAUTY AS THE QURAN.

FURTHER MORE IF YOU OPEN YOUR MIND YOU WOULD SEE THAT WOMANS RIGHTS WERE ONLY ESTABLISHED THIS CENTURY, PRIOR TO THAT WOMAN WAS DISREGARDED IN EVERY CULTURE EVEN THE WESTERN.

Again editor you have brang up the sword verse. You see your pathetic, because you know the historical context of the verse but yet you bring up that single verse to justify your claims. YOUR A MORON
19.
londonspirit Comment ID #24892
October 2, 2009 • 10:55 pm

And to the rest of you. Your just a bunch of losers who have to much spare time on your hands saying where is londonspirit or kabir law, they wont reply to this post. We together with other muslims do not need to justify ourselves to you, because your just hate seekers, who just formed a group on how to attack islam and make it look bad. There isnt a single site whereby muslims are attacking religions of other faiths but yet you got people as yourselves who are doing that and than you call yourself civilized.

PATHETIC
20.
The good atheist Comment ID #24898
October 2, 2009 • 11:50 pm

Foolish Londonspirit trying to justify wife beating. The Shariah laws are a disgrace to mankind. These people nbelong in jail.
21.
londonspirit Comment ID #24901
October 3, 2009 • 12:12 am

to GOOD ATHESIST no where was i trying to justify wife beating. Wife beating is wrong and shouldnt happen out of aggression or due to you just feeling like it. Nowhere does the quran state that wife should be beaten to your desire. Rtahe rif you were to read my post which i dont think you did you would have said what the prophet said on that matter and what the quran teaches in regards to mens behavious towards woman. So you are the foolish one not me
22.
The good atheist Comment ID #24925
October 3, 2009 • 4:06 am

Londonspirit:
“The verse only allows light beating if the attempts to resolve the matter fails on two occassions. Once after communication and the other after neglect. Than as a last resort you are to beat lightly. Why I say lightly because if you read the end of the verse you would see it say not to transgress. And if you read other verses about transgressing you would see that allah hates the transgressors.”

Then you say wife beating is wrong. I dont know who is more confused, you or me.
23.
rationalist Comment ID #24926
October 3, 2009 • 4:16 am

OK Londonspirit, you say that beating (lightly) of wife is permitted if the attempts to resolve the matter fails on two occassions. The same verse asks men to refuse sharing bed with wife. Refer to Quran and tell us what a wife should do if the husband transgresses? For example, he is allowed to have other women as sex slaves (WAR BOOTY) and it is perfectly halal according to Quran. I am sure your wife, if you have one, will not like your having concubines. Disgusting, isn’t it? What if a husband is preying on someone else and his wife notices it? What should the wife do according to Quran? If Allah believes in equal rights, then Quran should advocate the beating of transgressing husbands “lightly”. If Quran doesn’t say that then Allah aka pedophile Muhammad is stupid. Wodousay?
24.
Secularist Comment ID #24940
October 3, 2009 • 7:02 am

An incident I experienced when I was in the Middleeast.

I was about to leave the country having completed my project, hence I decied to have a garage sale to get rid of my paraphenelia.

An Arab couple walked in, and they wanted my washing machine, therefor I took the payment and then waited for them to take the object to their car. For some reason an arguement broke up between them. To my astonishment the husband ended up giving the wife a thunderous slap across the face and continued taking the machine to the car. The wife with lots of displeasure in her face followed the man.

I had trouble sleeping that night, nonetheless, did not expect an atom of expectations that my future husband would treat me the same way.

This was enough for me to question Islam.
25.
sisha Comment ID #24941
October 3, 2009 • 7:10 am

Is wife beating confined to only flirting with other men:what about the beating she gets because she didnot agree with him for something else like how to spend their money or their children’s education.Those kinds of cases also happen.
26.
Demsci Comment ID #24945
October 3, 2009 • 7:40 am

LondonSpirit, Let me explain what I saw the beauty of and of what I do not see the beauty of in your posts. To you and other readers. First of all, Quran 4;34 is a sore weak spot in the Quran and I agree with the editor and the other posters about that. But you explained how alcohol plays a big role in wife-beating and how you see how it should be countered. And in my country there is now a big campaign against domestic violence and many Muslims are doing their part in this campaign, even as you, using Islamic faith to condemn wife-beating. That is what I respected and saw the beauty of.

How I view you, LS? To me you are always respectful and I appreciate that. And I am for democracy worldwide and therefore against an Islamic system that would topple that, that would blockade that in Islamic countries. And very precious to me is eternal, omnipresent freedom of speech, which you yourself use so well. I wish with all my heart that someday you will use your passion and skills against theocrats and misogynists, in the service of a reformed democratic Islam. Maybe against a raging other religion, maybe against the Scientologists, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, if they want to take away (y)our autonomy?

Here is an excerpt of a very recent article on Islam Watch called:
“Muslim Apologetics on ‘Authenticity’ of the Quran”
(I recognize you and Kabirlaw and other Muslims on this website, like now The Truth on The Challenge, in this description.)

“There is a new wave of young intelligent Muslim apologists in Western societies trying to defend the Quran and Islam. We, as ex-Muslims, atheists and antitheists, must understand their workings and techniques, and seek out ways to counter them in best possible way. Simple anti-Islamic rhetoric is insufficient to stop this genus of people, who are striving hard to pursue the goals of Islam. In my view, these apologists are our strongest adversaries. I encourage everyone to study the arguments they present, and expose their fallacies. Ex-Muslims and antitheists must confront them with logical and well-laid arguments and show them their folly.
To defeat Islam, we must defeat them first.”

Other people here seem to underestimate you and Kabirlaw, but I recognize how good and effective you 2 can be. I always read your posts well, try to understand them, try to search for the truth above all else. And yes, there is beauty in them, there is beauty in Islam. But you claim it has divine origine. And your real opponents are not Christians, Hindus, Buddhists etc anymore, they are all democratic-inclined people, using their evolved advanced laws and morals, choosing them over a lot of Islam’s laws and morals.

And here is the thing; Divine laws have the “advantage” of coming from a wise, all-knowing God, but they stand still in time, get obsolete. Human laws, on the contrary, have been improved and expanded and humans continue to do so. Perhaps that is God’s fault; He neglects to maintain his laws. He gives them, plans a Armageddon, and in between does nothing. Although an alternative explanation of God’s behavior might be that he is inspiring mankind all the time, and so also all great ideas, laws, morals that evolved after Muhammad.
27.
jonc Comment ID #24978
October 3, 2009 • 12:15 pm

LS, great to hear from you again.

K4:34″Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. (35)And if ye fear a breach between the twain (the man and wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment Allah will make them of one mind. Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Aware.” (Pickthall).

LS: I have re-quoted this verse (4:34) and the following from Pickthall (which seems to be most accurate translation readily available). Having looked at 28 english translations (Online Quran project) I find the following:
Three make no mention of beating in any form at all, 7 speak of beating (or similar) lightly (or similar) and 18 simply use the word “beat” or similar with no modifier.
In the case of the seven with a modified form of beating the use of parentheses indicates that the word is interpolated into the text.
This is supported in that the majority (~2/3) have no such modifier.
Why three translations elide the whole issue I don’t know – unless it is to make the Koran “interpretation” more acceptable to non-Muslims.

Thus the majority view of K3:34 is that beating is allowed without limitation.
With regard to this verse you also wrote “…if you read the end of the verse you would see it say not to transgress.”
Where does it say anything about “transgressing”? I haven’t found that at the end of ANY translation of K4:34 (which is why I also quoted K4:35), so please at least state which translation you use.

Now, to be fair to you, I do agree that if a married couple live together in accordance with the prescriptions of Koran and Sunnah, no such wife beating would occur and that they will love together in “tranqillity”.
After all, the wife would be humbly obedient , keep herself covered, not venture out without a ‘Mahram’, provide sex-on-demand (to avoid the angels’ curses) etc.
However, some women actually have a will of their own! And things may go wrong for other reasons too.
So what happens then? Your quotes K9:71 and K30:21 no longer apply. Your other Koranic quote (K4:19) which you use to say that men should not “treat women harshly” does not necessarily support your contention either. Here is the relevant part:
“…Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them…”
The key word here is “that”. A man should not (note, the Koran does NOT say MUST NOT) treat a women harshly to get back part of the dowry he has given her.
It does not say men should not treat women harshly in a blanket sense.
So then, we fall back on the Hadith.
Here I agree with you that they clearly state that a man should not beat his wife, but should treat her with honour and kindness.
However, I regard you as having weakened your own argument by the Tirmithi quote “The best of you is one who is best towards his family and I [Mohammed] am best towards the family” since in another Hadith Mohammed hit Aisha. Therefore the “best” behaviour towards the family is to hit your wife even if you should not “beat” her. Perhaps this means that only a single (painful) blow may be struck?

You then wrote:”But if a point does arise whereby the man is cruel to his wife and beats her due to trangression than the quran gives the following verse:
‘And if a wife fears cruelty or desertion from her husband, there is no blame on them if they reconciliate them, reconciliation between them is far better, and souls are prone to avarice. But if you do good and are God fearing then surely God is aware of what you do-’ (Qur’an 4:128)”
So, a woman’s recourse if she fears cruelty is reconciliation? According to this verse even if she is treated cruelly she should not use this as a cause for “automatic” divorce.
This is put into practice in Sharia divorce courts where, if the woman brings a petition, she is often required to return to her abusive partner and try to affect a reconciliation (and often more than once) before the (Islamic) divorce is granted. (From a TV program on “Sharia in the UK”).

Now, I have looked through your post in detail and it gives little or no support to your contentions.
Taken overall, it would seem that a from the Koran and Hadith quotes you have used and following the example of Mohammed with Aisha:
1. a man is (at minimum) allowed to hit his wife (once only perhaps) hard enough to cause pain (how much we don’t know) when she gives him offence.
2. A woman suffering from, or anticipating cruelty from, her husband is expected to attempt reconciliation.
This is certainly NOT a bad thing in principle, though it results in muslim women being sent back to abusive husbands to attempt this.

That said, LS, I am delighted that you personally repudiate wife-beating and I respect your attempt to strip Islam of this egregious attitude, but I don’t think that your quotes do so. I think that it will require a more radical reform of Islam, or perhaps I mean Islamic thinking, to do this.

You point about sufferage is well taken, LS. But here is the rub (also mentioned by Demsci). In the West our laws on sufferage, equality etc are evolving as we genuinely reasile the fundamental equality of the sexes.
Neither your religion nor your laws (Sharia) do, and because they are ‘divine’ in origin, they are not amenable to change.
Therefore Islam locks in the inequalities for all time.
Out of interest LS, would you deny that the Islamic societies around the World are the most patriarchal ones remaining?
—
Returning to Saad Haqqui’s point that this verse offers a kinder alternative to killing your wife.
I think he has a point. Anyone who reads/listens to/watches the news is aware of “honour-killing” (a brilliant mis-nomer).
I suppose that the sort of Mussalman that Haqqui is(or is referring to) would feel justified in killing his wife if he thought she had “dishonoured” him, so perhaps a really good beating that stopped her before he felt dishonoured might actually save her life.
Of course, this line of reasoning says a lot more about the man (a loosely used term here) than the woman. But it is the sort of perverse reasoning that has been met in these cases (amongst others).
—
Secularist: your incident was enlightening. Note how it fits with my points above. A single, painful slap – how like Mohammed.
—
Demsci:
Your point about laws is excellent.
A consequence of this is that we face a stark choice: either Islam (and its laws) are totally correct in all aspects (after all anything “of God” must be perfect by definition); or, if a single one of the “revealed” laws is proven wrong then Islam itself is not “of God” since it is imperfect.
It then follows that “Allah” is not God and thus Mohammed is not a prophet of God.
This then begs the question: Is there one example where non-Sharia laws are objectively and demonstrably superior to Sharia laws?
28.
Natalie Comment ID #24990
October 3, 2009 • 2:15 pm

Beating women is never ok – whether mohammed said so or not

Please could any UK people support this. Thanks

Universal Children’s Day and International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women – 21 November 2009 in London, England
http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/universal-childrens-day-and-international...
29.
londonspirit Comment ID #24995
October 3, 2009 • 3:36 pm

SECULARIST: you wrote an incident whereby a man slapped a woman whilst you were in the gulf, and that was enough for you to question islam. Did you know the following facts:

1. two countries, india and china which consists of 1/3 of the world population practice killing featuses once they are identified as female. These countries are not muslim nations.

2. Every 15 seconds in america a woman is getting beaten by her husband or partner and america is not a muslim nation.

If you want references go to articles on this site and than go to beating up woman for allah. Now by the time i have finished this post 12 woman have been beaten in america. Shocking statistics. Yet america is the most democratic an so called country that heavily practices woman rights and yet it presents such a shocking statistics. Isnt that enough for me to question christianity and the democratic law."

This is off topic. The topic is that your book justifies wife beating. In the US, a woman can press charges against an abuser, and if guilty he is often jailed. In most of the Middle-East woman may press charges, the court uses Sharia Law to return her to the abuser.