Jamshed Iqbal vs. Ali Sina
Submitted by Ali Sina on Thu, 04/16/2009 - 08:15
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PDF versionThis debate is on going. Please check regularly and scroll down for new updates. Last updated. 2009/04/16 (20:37 GMT)
This debate is being simultaneously published in the Islamic site http://www.sunninews.co.cc/ and it will be updated as the new discussion take place. New material will be added to page.
Dear Ali Sina, Having come to know about your challenge to Mr. Zakir Naik and other Muslim scholars, I accept your challenge of providing you rational/ logical and psycho-philosophical insights to prove Mohammad’s (pbuh) genuin oneness with supreme reality and prophethood through debate! I accept your challenge for once, I too, used to think like you! Therefore, I know well that Mr. Zakir Naik could not answer your questions for he himslef is, what Bacon would call , ” an idol of a cave” that have no existance outside his forced abode! Morever, I would also offer you some post-modern scientific, sociological, psychological and anthropological insights (to be weighed and considered) as well so that you could see the things in totality! The debate would be published on some blogs, including yours, to have wider public attention, feedback to value your (or mine) arguments in exchange. I would eagerly wait for your kind mail! Sincere, Jamshed Iqbal
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Hello Mr. Jamshed Iqbal,
Will you kindly send me your bio and let me know which blog will publish our debate?
Best Regards
Ali Sina
Dear Jamshed Iqbal
I don’t know how many of my articles you have read. If you read enough you’d know that the reason I think Islam must go is because it is a doctrine that does not allow peaceful co-existance.
Let us say there is a religion with the following teachings. Do you think you can have any peaceful co-existence with the followers of that religion?
We will cast terror into the hearts of Muslims. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. 8:12 Let not the non-Muslims take for friends or helpers the Muslims. 3:28, Rouse the non-Muslims to the fight against Muslims. 8:65, Then fight and slay the Muslims wherever ye find them, 9:5, Fight the Muslims, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame. 9:14, O ye the non-Muslims take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love Islam.9:23, O ye the non-Muslims! Truly the Muslims are unclean. 9:28, O ye non-Muslims! fight the Muslims who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you. 9:123, Therefore, when ye meet the Muslims, smite at their necks; At length. 47:4, I hope you agree that such religion has no right to exist, that its followers must be re-educated or if they persist they should be separated from the rest of mankind to maintain peace. Anyway, I have had many debates with Muslims who at first were confident that they know more and they can easily prove me wrong. The strength of their faith (which is a vice and not a virtue) was no substitute to the strength of their argument. For more than a decade I have debated thousands of Muslims. I assure you there is no argument that has not been discussed already. Repetition of the same is not exciting. So I require those who wish to debate with me, to at least familiarize themselves with my arguments.
I suggest you read my book first and only after you know my views we should engage in debate. I know your views. There is nothing in Islam that I do not know. I was born a Muslim and studied it thoroughly. I am among very few people who understand Islam. This does not mean I have more knowledge about every detail of Islam. But I understand Islam and Muhammad better than most people and all the Muslims.
So I request that you read my book first. If then you think you have found some flaws in my arguments, I would be glad to listen to you. If you want to tell me things that I have already discussed, there is no point in debating. All you have to do is read more and you will get your answer.
Are you willing to read my book? I don’t want you to buy it. I will send it to you as ebook. A lot of people who read my book left Islam as the result. You may also end up doing the same. By the time you reach half of the book you’ll start doubting everything you were told about Islam and by the time you finish it you will no longer call yourself a Muslim.
However, if any of the sites you sent the Cc of this email agree to publish our debate right from the start as it proceeds, I would drop that requirement and will debate with you right way. This would make the debate a lot more interesting because the end result will not be known until the very end. Since you are confident that Islam has all the answers, I am sure you’d all welcome my proposal. I am willing to publish our debate as it proceeds.
Regards
Ali Sina
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2009/4/14 (18.25)
Thank you for publishing our debate. I would be more than glad to take part in this discussion. Now how can we proceed?
You can just write a rebuttal to one of my claims. Or you can answer the question that I asked above. I quoted a few verses from the sacred book of a new religion called Malsi. As you can see this faith teaches Muslims are filthy, they should be killed, they are fuel for hell, they are pigs and monkeys, and it encourages its followers to fight against the Muslims, strike their heads and be very harsh with them.
Ironically, the Malsians, the followers of Malsi claim their religion promotes peace and they want peaceful co-existence with Muslims. I would like you to instruct me how to respond to these people?
I tell them if they want peaceful co-existence they should purge their holy book from all those evil teachings. What I quoted is just the tip of the iceberg. Wait until you read the book. It is full of hate against Muslims. Many Malsians, following the teachings of their prophet, are constantly killing Muslims, burning the mosques have no mercy even on Muslim children. Other Malsians however, repeat ad nauseam that Malsi Faith is a beautiful religion of peace and that it is misunderstood.
What do you think we should tell these people? Don’t you agree that they are misguided at best and evil at worst, that their faith is false and they need to be weaned from their faith of hate? Do you think Muslims can have any peaceful co-existence with Malsians while they hold their book of hate and terror sacrosanct?
All the best
Ali
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New Addition
2009/04/16 (06:41)
Deare Ali Sina, Please remember, I accepted your debate challenge:
§ To prove Mohammad’s (pbuh) genuine oneness with Supreme Reality &
§ Reality of his prophetic experience! (plz go through my previous message) It meant that my position, in the debate was supposed to be affirmative one, and yours, the other way round. The other point I made clear was that: § It should not be just point-scoring or ego-strutting! &
§ We, as members of human family and meaning-seeking creatures, would try to solve the puzzle of our existence with some perennial and ever-fresh questions before us........ Let me clear you certain points. Problem of the prophet-hood is the question of means, sources and ends of knowledge—the question of epistemology in scholarly terms. Here you were supposed to announce your “position” by clearing, what according to you distinguishes adequate knowledge from inadequate (false) knowledge To lay the basis of your conclusion that Mohammad (pbuh) was charlatan—false pretender of knowledge (nauzu billah). You would have to choose one position among some possibilities:
§ Putting more emphasis on logical and empirical methods, stressing that knowledge is an apprehension of necessary and universal principles. (causal determinism, empirical materialism: Aristotelian position)
§ You had other option to declare that, ” knowledge is merely an awareness of absolute, universal Ideas or Forms, existing independent of any subject trying to apprehend to them” (Idealism: Platonic position)
§ Knowledge is the product of sensory perception, and rationalism which sees it as the product of rational reflection (Post-renaissance scientific empiricism)
§ Knowledge results from a kind of mapping or reflection of external objects, through our sensory organs, possibly aided by different observation instruments, to our brain or mind. (reflection-correspondence theory: if you adopted that position you would have to enter into the mazy realm of language and its relation to reality towards Structuralism & Post structuralism)
§ Knowledge is an empirical statement which comes from analytical truth (Comte’s position: Logical Positivism) Please, honestly, go through my last messages and see if you had any understanding of my position I declared in the very first message! Please see clearly if you have any understanding of your own position! What you put forward is quite irrelevant at this stage. For:
§ We were to see the issue in light of some perennial and ever-fresh questions (see my first message wherein I discussed about the norms) What are these perennial questions? The “umbrella question” is “what is truth”. All the branches of sciences and philosophy, in some way or other, have this one question before them. Human beings responded their impulse to know the truth in four distinctive ways: 1. Mythmaking (with the aid of imagination of symbolism) 2. Philosophy (with the aid of reason) 3. Science (Analysis and apparatus) 4. Religion (empathy and intuition)
I am sorry my friend you have even no idea as what the debate is about! What areas of knowledge or disciplines our debate falls in! or even how to debate on these issues! You were right in inviting Mr. Zakir Naik for he was your good match! And your whole knowledge abut Islam is based on the understandings of Zakir Naiks! You have never been fortunate enough to see those who live Islam or those who found Islam!
You and Zakir Naiks are, in principle, sailing in the same boat—they do not know what they are defending and you don’t know what you are criticizing! Both of you are perspective-less—but perspective is everything!
It goes without saying that you have never bothered to ponder upon these problems quite seriously. Please ask yourself this question in some honest moment! Or you left them for they were far beyond your observational understanding badly entangled somewhere else? So your intellect remained dormant (it tells)—and it was entangled in minor things—in phenomenal world or appearance that is always deceptive!
I am sorry my friend, you have lost the debate before it started! However, I am giving you thirty years’ grace period to let your intellect ripe! To let these perennial questions pinch the sleep from your eyes and pinch rest from your soul—to let your bones melt in pangs of wonder and doubt until you get a peace of truth within you! I pray for that peace for you! I would salute your honestly if you publish this comment on your blog as well! I would even acknowledge your integrity if you stop challenging Muslim scholars for debate! I would even adore you as a friend if you, honestly, rub out from your heart the prejudice that is product of your myopic understanding! I assure you Mohammad (pbuh) is lovingly offering you a priceless treasure but you are refusing it for your gaze is tenaciously fixed on filth! And one is there where one’s gaze rests! I have nothing more to say. I will debate when you are ripe! For its question to save the humanity! Sincere, Jamshed Iqbal Manager Advocacy & Liaison Power99 Islamabad. Cell:0345-7358171
Jamshed Iqbal <jamshed.eqbal@gmail.com>
CC editor@indianmuslims.in, warsibrother@gmail.com, imranshaykh@gmail.com
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2009/04/16 (8:10)
Dear Jamshed Iqbal,Please remember that it was you who accepted my challenge. Did you read it before accepting it? My challenge is simple and clear. I have stated that Muhammad was not a prophet of God but a mentally sick man and a liar. I have also laid a series of charges against that man that disqualify him as a good man let alone a prophet. You said “I accept your challenge” and promised to provide “rational/ logical and psycho-philosophical insights to prove Mohammad's (pbuh) genuine oneness with supreme reality and prophethood through debate!”
To put it in a simple language, you said you would provide proof that Muhammad was a true messenger of God. I’d love to hear that proof. Where is it?
I asked you a simple question. The question is how can a man who engaged in all sorts of evil acts, lied, cheated, raided, looted, massacred civilians, raped his captives, and tortured his prisoners to make them reveal the whereabouts of their treasures be a messenger of God? Muhammad claimed to be the best of the creation and a perfect example to follow. Were his actions exemplary? They were not. So how can such a man guide mankind to good deeds, when his deeds were evil?
You want to discuss epistemology. Who cares whether knowledge is an apprehension of universal principles, an awareness of absolute, a product of sensory perception, or the result of analytical reflection?
Whatever the nature of knowledge, it does not diminish the abhorrence of the acts of Muhammad. It cannot also justify the absurdities of the Quran. Muslims are killing innocent people everywhere. Since 9/11 there have been over 12000 terrorist attacks. That is an average of five per day. People die as the result. And you want to talk about epistemology? This is red herring. What the hell does the nature of truth has to do with the fact that Muslims are terrorists?
Okay, so my intellect is dormant. Can you please awaken it by telling us how your questions on epistemology change the violent verses of the Quran? I did ponder on these questions Sir. But they have nothing to do with the claim of Muhammad. They are intellectual musings, luxuries allowed to those who live in freedom, something Islam wants to take away.
Islam promotes ignorance. Because of Islam Muslims cannot progress. They are filled with hatred of everyone and want to kill and destroy. They are reduced into beasts. Yes beasts. If one has no empathy for other humans, he is a beast and not a human. Now these beasts have atomic bomb. As the result the world has become powder keg. Mankind has never been more in danger of extinction as it is today. So much stupidity and hatred is thought in the madrassas of Pakistan that that country is about to fall in the hands of the Taliban any time. When that happens, it would be the end. It won’t be just non-Muslims who will die, Pakistan and Iran will be obliterated. And you want to talk about epistemology?
In your second email you wrote “I pondered seriously on the conditions and questions of human life on this solitary hospitable planet. Peaceful coexistence of human family has been my main concerns of thought and writings.”
What do you think is threatening the peaceful coexistence of human family? Is it because people don’t agree on the nature of knowledge or is it because a fifth of people follow a man who told them kill the disbelievers wherever you find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight with them (8:65 ), strive against them with great endeavor (25:52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (66:9) and strike off their heads; then after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives” for ransom (47:4)?
Were those men who hijacked four planes and killed 3000 innocent people angry because their victims did not know that “knowledge is merely an awareness of absolute,” or did they do it because their prophet told them slay the unbelievers(9:5), no other religion but Islam is accepted (3:85), the unbelievers are najis (9:28), so fight them and kill them until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193)?
Dear Jamhed, what you call “peace of truth,” is peace of ignorance. I quote the young AlwaysAisha who explains this eloquently. She wrote, “After my conversion, I felt a sense of peace and happiness that I had never before experienced in my life, and hope to never experience again. This was the peace that came with knowing with full certainty that I was in the right path. Knowing that there was a Creator who was watching over me and who had a plan for me. Knowing that He had in his infinite mercy bestowed me with the Qur’an, an instruction manual for life so that from now on I could always know the right choice and be certain of my decisions. Knowing that earthly problems did not matter at all, because this life would eventually be over and then I could look forward to paradise.”
She came to her senses and realized that this peace was gained through numbing her senses and silencing her intelligence. Shun this peace. Today you are alive; you must be inquisitive and learn. A time will come when your heart will no longer beat and your mind will be at peace, but until then avoid that peace like a plague. Bertrand Russell said, “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” The certainty and peace you attain through faith is the certainty of foolishness.
I did publish all your emails. I see the Islamic site http://www.sunninews.co.cc/ where our debate was publish is not accessible. I hope it is a tecnical problem and that page will be back with the new addition. Please also provide the link to this page http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/04/14/jamshed-iqbal-vs-ali-sina/
See the science that Muhammad brought to the world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F5kYWceTsI
This is the 21st century and these educated Muslims believe the Earth is flat because the Quran says so and the Quran cannot be wrong.
This is the sad reality of the Ummah. When you follow a stupid man you become stupid. When you follow a violent man you become violent. When you follow a stupid and violent man you become a Muslim.
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2009/04/16 (19:17)
One of our friends, Fisk wrote to Mr. Jamshed Iqbal and got the following response. (see comment # 92)
92. Fisk Says: April 16th, 2009 at 7:00 pm e Greetings to all. Earlier today I wrote to Jamshed Iqbal, and to my surprise he wrote back. Here is our exchange: On 16/04/2009, Bill Fisk wrote: Dear Mr Iqbal I have just read the final installment of your debate with Ali Sina, and I would like to ask you a question. Mr Sina opened the debate with a very simple argument, which was to posit a fictional religion whose principal tenets were the hatred, vilification and persecution of Muslims. His question then was, What would you think of such a religion and what would you say to its followers? What is it about this simple question that you find so difficult? I notice that you claim to have won the debate, when it is clear to everyone that you didn’t even trouble to take part in it. Yours Fisk Reply: Dearest Fisk, It was in fact a cross question to avoid real question! The real question was about the condition of Enlightenment and genuine prophetic/spiritual experience. I just asked him to declare his position (atheist, agnostic or what???) but he is beating about the bush! His was not a question but an evasive technique. He wants others to run on the track he is habitual to run on…One who does not even know what to talk about….and what not and how….Whose position is only hatred…and, ironically, he claims to fight against hatred! What he is doing is just point scoring or showing is only ego-defensive attitude! May be to his loyality to his funders at the cost of being faithful to humanity at large! At the cost of our hospitable home—the earth! This is the common problem with Charlatans or hate-mongers… I request you to make him declare his position……so that we could go ahead! And please advice him to move away from puffed cliches! This is the matter of life of human family….this is the matter of upcoming innocent angels……not a joke! The issue we are to decide collectively (as human beings) is locating the source of violence! He says, they are Muslims… is not it a sweeping generalization..and logically speaking…these kinds of generalizations are always wrong! They make healthy debate impossible! Violence is “shared characteristic” of human kind….it is the product of id….it is what we learnt from caves and tribes! We, humans, are basically cave or tribal species! and to be civilized human, one needs to surpass id.And Religion (I am not talking about only Islam…Islam is one of the religions) was, actually, a device to drive it away from within! I would request you express your comments on his site for it would become difficult for me to answer hundreds of friends…you wrote and thought it improper not to answer you! Sincerely yours, Jamshed Iqbal ______________ 2009/04/16 (20:37)
Hello Jamshed.
You say I avoided the real question, which was “the condition of Enlightenment and genuine prophetic/spiritual experience.”
I am the one who posed the question and challenged Muslims to answer me. You are the one who accepted that challenge. It is you who has to answer my question and not the other way round.
So you want to talk about the “condition of Enlightenment and genuine prophetic/spiritual experience.” What would that prove? Would it prove that Muhammad was a real prophet of God and not a charlatan as I have called him? Please go ahead and prove it. Give me one solid irrefutable evidence that this man was not making things up, and what he said can be proven to be truthful and without resorting to logical fallacies.
If you can provide that proof, I will drop all my charges against him. I have proven that Muhammad was a pedophile, a rapist, a thief, a mass murderer, a torturer, a narcissist and a mentally sick man. You cannot disprove any of these charges, but you have evidence that he was a genuine prophet?
Let us say that you can prove Muhammad knew things no one knew. (I heard a lot of such claims, such as the Quran is a mathematical wonder or it has foretold about all the inventions and discoveries. All of them are wishful thinking of Muslims with wild imagination.) Does that prove that that knowledge came from God? How do we know it did not come from Satan? How do we know it was not Satan that visited Muhammad, disguised as Angel Gabriel? How could Muhammad know the difference if he had never seen Gabriel before?
This question is important. The answer lies in the deeds of Muhammad. Did he live a saintly life or were his actions demonic and evil? So assuming you prove Muhammad had extraordinary powers, you still have not proven that he was indeed a prophet of God. He could have been a deception of Satan to fool the gullible.
However, let us not even go there because there is no proof that Muhammad had any knowledge that ordinary men of his time did not have. In fact he was a very ignorant man in comparison to the learned men of his time and place. So not Gabriel and not even Satan visited Muhammad. Muhammad suffered from a series of mental disorders. He had vivid hallucinations. I have shown all this in my book Understanding Muhammad and have proven with ample evidence that he was mentally sick.
You ask about my position vis-a-vis God. Is it relevant? You are here to prove that Muhammad was a genuine prophet of God to all and sundry. Who gives a damn what I believe or don’t believe?
However, if it is important, and you can’t prove the truth of Muhammad without knowing my position, let me make it simple for you. For the sake of argument I accept whatever is your definition of God. I even agree that Allah, the same deity that was worshipped by the Meccans prior to Muhammad, and the same god that sent Jesus, as Muhammad claimed, is the real God. Now I want you to prove that Muhammad was a messenger of this Allah. Please provide evidence that he did not make up the whole thing to fool the gullible and make them wage war for him and make him rich and powerful.
I am not asking you to prove God. I even recite the first part of shahadah. Ashhado in la ilah illa Allah. Happy? Now please prove that Muhammad was Rasool Allah.
You keep talking about humanity and the need for peaceful co-existence while at the same time you believe in a book that calls for the massacre of all non-Muslims and the submission and subjugation of all mankind. There is a cognitive dissonance between what you profess with your mouth and what you actually believe as your faith. How can you talk of peaceful co-existence when you think words such as “the unbelievers are filthy, the Jews are pigs, the non-Muslims are the worst creatures in the sight of Allah, slay them wherever you find them,” are divine teachings?
Can you have peaceful co-existence with the Malsians whose sacred book mirrors the Quran and incites hatred against the Muslims? You did not answer this question? Would you say that Malsi religion is a peaceful religion?
No! Violence is NOT“shared characteristic” of humankind. People become violent when exposed to violent teachings. Yes, violence dose also have psychological components, such as greed, envy, anger, etc. all byproducts of low self-esteem. However, crowds have a psychology of their own and they can become violent through external influences. We do not expect to see violent behavior among a crowd coming out of a church, a synagogue, a Hindu or a Buddhist temple, or a Zoroastrian or a Baha’i gathering. But if I see a crowd coming out of a mosque towards me, I will run as fast as I can.
Non violent people can become violent when they believe in violent teachings. If religion had no effect in how we humans behave, then what is the point of having religion at all? The very purpose of religion is to influence people and make them do things their way. If their way is peaceful, the believers are likely to behave peacefully and if it is violent, the believers will act violently.
Let us hear now what proof you can present to make us believe that Muhammad was a genuine, prophet and a real McCoy. .
Mr. Ali Sina: I have not
Mr. Ali Sina:
I have not debated as many people as you have (smile) but the few that I have debated they lose, thanks to you. Thanks for being an inspiration for all of us who are willing to fight this scourge of demonic trash. It takes courage and knowledge which you have plenty of and I wish to thank you for being so courageous and intelligent.
Mr. Sina, What a start you
Mr. Sina,
What a start you made to this debate. Cant wait to read more.
I am wondering what Mr. Iqbal will have to say about Malsians.
very interesting indeed.
very interesting indeed. please post the links of all the blogs that are going to publish this debate and a very good beginning. How about sending mails to main steam tv channels who have become gungo about blogs to start monitoring and presenting this blog. they cannot get a more interesting topic in current affairs can they?
If jamshed iqbal is from
If jamshed iqbal is from India as he claims(?),then the debate will be closely watched by hindus.Hope some of the so called Hindu guru's read the debate.Maybe it will help them in future to debate muslims,instead of feeding us the crap that all religions lead to "One God"
hmmmmmmmmm it is good to see
hmmmmmmmmm
it is good to see that ali has started debating with "every one" but i dont think that debate is going to be interesting because Mr jumshaid seems to be a sufi and i know sufis very well they just beat around the bush....
well lets see.
testing
testing
Suggestion Brother Sina,
Suggestion
Brother Sina, please request that all those sites that will publish the debate provide FFI link to its readers. That way, we insure people will know the naked truth about Islam. But maybe you already did that. Thanks
Mr Iqbal: You sound like one
Mr Iqbal: You sound like one of those who think islam,the religion of peace, has been hijacked. I bet you also believe that Mohammed was a very peaceful man who never killed any one and who married old widows to support them or to propogate islam and that Ayesha was 25 when Mo married her.You probably also believe that Mo attacked Meccan caravans to retrieve his own goods from Mecca and that 900 Quraizans were beheaded for their treachery.
That is exceptionally
That is exceptionally beautiful. As India carries a large population of Muslims, it is very crucial that this debate reaches them uncensored.
The start by Ali Sina regarding Malsi religion was great! That's the question exactly all the non - Muslims and ex - Muslims have regarding Muslims in the present times. Let the believers' too feel the heat.
That is exceptionally
India is NOT like America. Majority (may be as high as 70%) are illiterate peasants who barely eat twice a day. These people have not seen a computer much less internet access.
I hope the academia, politicians, middle class and upper class Indians in India takes note of this debate.
I loved the Malsi religion!
I loved the Malsi religion! Where can I sign in to become a member?
Unlike Slam,it is purged of Rabid-ths and there's no Q-Randy, no Pervert Profit$$$ MonkeyMAD/MuuuuhCowMAD/Mumm-Ra-MAD or whatever. It does not hold aping the Pervert actions such as butt-lifting, arabic grunting, Muuuublablahheeela, Vuuuduuu, Sin-na, JIHAD, etc.
I sincerely hope Malsi advocates building gas chambers tailored for muslims.
From the site linked above
From the site linked above http://www.sunninews.co.cc/ there is an article talking about economic crisis saying that sharia finance was not affected by the current crisis. furthermore , it is only focused on tangilbe goods. However, these Gulf States sold oil $150/bbl in a asset in stock market exchange, I don't know the name in English,but it is the expectancy of reaching in the near future the value of $150/bbl. So,it is not a tangilble value, just a speculative one. The "real" value is indeed $40/bbl. That was the reason,when the market stock exchange collapsed, the oil value dropped.
So,why on Earth did the fiefs from Gulf States(such as Caustic Sodium Arabia) sold oil on a non-tangilble price, although higher, if they are to follow the tenets of Pislam? Was it Economic Jihad?
Malsi religion my ass..... he
Malsi religion my ass..... he is provoking, the muslims are persecuted uuuhuu
What is the Malsi religion?
What is the Malsi religion?
Islam read backwards,
Islam read backwards, that'swhy it's better!
Yes, I myself am a member of
Yes, I myself am a member of the Jewish Masli sect. We're nice bunch of peaceful cannibals.
You people always take things
You people always take things out of context and try and use it agains a religion. Dr. Sina is just one of those people. I am a muslim, be sure not a very good one. But just looking at those verses I myself a student can tell they are out of context. An if any of you had an brains or a bit of curiosity you would look up the previous and the following verses to see what the quran is actually saying.
1. We will cast terror into the hearts of Muslims. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. 8:12. May I suggest ali sina to add the whole verse. which states
[8:12] Recall that your Lord inspired the angels: "I am with you; so support those who believed. I will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved. You may strike them above the necks, and you may strike even every finger.
This verse is relating to a war. When the muslims fighted the disblilevers they were scared so Allah telling them that he has made the disbelivers scared even more. And to finish the people at the battle you have been given permission to strike them and kill them in battle.
If you think this is barbaric. Look what usa are doing to the people of afganistan, iraq. Raping iraqi gals. Tieing one hand to a post and and the other hand to a car and then accelrating the car until the hands rip off. Dont you think that is barbaric. I would rather die than be tortured. We dont allow torture. People with no morals dont care cause they think no one is watchin and they will not get punished. Oh yeah An the humiliation of the iraqi men in the jail. Does that answer your question?
londonspirit - I think you're
londonspirit - I think you're point is very well taken: that the verse Ali quotes was in the context of war and should be properly viewed in that historical sense. The problem I have, however, is that it the verse is stated, like so much of the Quran, in a hortatory, or commanding way, and does not make clear that it should not be taken as divine advice. It is thus all to easy to take that verse as a universal, immutable command, and I'm afraid that's how a lot of Muslims read it.
Modern reseach has found that the Islamic scriptures were written after the Arab conquests in order to regulate and justify them. They make a very poor recipe for a modern society.
#16 Muslims are always at
#16 Muslims are always at war. Muslims are to kill until we submit to allah. Well we wont so you all will have to fight foever. Let's roll.
Malsi are doing to Muslims are muslims are doing to them. GO MALSIANS.
aMERICANS ARE NOT RAPING YOU NASTY WOMEN. Stop lying. Hussein's boys did that and Americans died to stop the crap. Say thanks sometime. Iraqi is a racist nation and needs to be terrorized. USa saved your women. Look at the faces of the Pakis women all burned out from acid and all noses cut out. Look at your girls who have their vaginas cut out. Islam is barbaric. Look at the suicide martyrs killing for 72 big breasted wshite women and 28 white boys who do not bleed. Look at your evil racism calling Africans ugly, pug nosed slaved created by allah to be slaves and hellfire. Muslims are created by the halla (Malsian god) to be slaves to stupidity. In American jails the Muslims dont want to leave. They get 3 hots and a cot and play soccer, get free dental, health care and good halal food. Some were released by appeasing Americans and went back and died a martyrs. Waste of dental care aND FOOD. Maybe they should have been given a GUN TO SHOOT THEMSELVES.
Now this is the Ali Sina I
Now this is the Ali Sina I know and love. This is what he does best; orchestrating the complete and total destruction of Islam.
Ali, you're rockin' like a hurricane.
Dear Ibn Kammuna Your
Dear Ibn Kammuna
Your suggestion is excellent but please accept my brotherly critique. Please my friend don’t take my criticism personal but having lived with muslims for many years, the quran, hadith and isalmic history was shoved down my throat, ears and nose (and every other orifice of my body if you know what I mean). It would be extremely naïve to believe they will even publish the debate let a long provide a link to FII. They will publish nothing that would damage islam and will invoke the Taqiya and Kitman as a disclaimer for their deception.
READ MY LIPS, THEY WILL PUBLISH NOTHING,
I’ve been wrong before; let’s hope I am wrong this time. (I have doubts)
#16 LOL! To #17: Dear
#16 LOL!
To #17:
Dear LondonistanFathom,
When you say you're not a very good muslim, you mean you have not already taken part in any JIHAD,practised any Take-ia, have not endowed in any perversion, nor have lusted for pre-pubescent girls?
"And to finish the people at the battle you have been given permission to strike them and kill them in battle."
Have you already been given permision to wage JIHAD by your next door horny pearl-like boy lusting muuuhlah? I hope not.
If you're smarter than any muuuuhlah or iman, why don'tyou tell then the correct Tafsir for this verse? Would you allow,from the deep of your ape-brain, the remaining MUST-apes to go astray by doing something different from Allah the moon god commands?
As you may know, although Slam tells that jews and christians are apes and pigs, I think I figured out that the profit of piss was a chimpanzee, because he himself aped profusedly jews, sabeans, christians, hanafis, pagans, etc.
Its only merit was adding JIHAD and WAR BOOTY, besides making other apes ape it for 14 centuries!
To #17 Nothing is barbaric
To #17
Nothing is barbaric when is about getting rid of must-apes. They are NAJIS, poisonous,cancerous, and have to be removed for sanitation purposes. Between my life and must-apes deaths, I take the first option.
Islamophobic wrote: Islam
Islamophobic wrote:
Islam read backwards, that’swhy it’s better!
LOL.
jewdog wrote: Yes, I myself
jewdog wrote:
Yes, I myself am a member of the Jewish Masli sect. We’re nice bunch of peaceful cannibals.
Jews rock!
Forgot to say Jews rock and
Forgot to say Jews rock and Muslims get their asses kicked by the Jews. The Quran says Jews are apes and pigs. So it's apes and pigs that are kicking the Muslims ass.
Allah, mohammad mummy where
Allah, mohammad mummy where are you all.Please help us the moslems.This ali zina is dissecting your instructions.the manual handed over to us the pious ,good people moslems is being ripped apart by this zina fellow.
How are we to rpotect ourselves? Ban this internet.Nuke the internet.Allah you konw every thing.The thing is this chappy zina is maligning you allah and laos our rasool.How can you keep quiet? Please allah stop this site by tomorrow.If the site is still up and cursing you, I consider the rasool as beti chod and you as pimp.The malsi people are evil.they are teaching all wrong things like women are equal to men, not to bang the child wtih out pubic hair, not to kill in your name mohammad and allah.that's unacceptable. Rasoll they are veen saying you were a lunatic.is that really true? How dare they say such things to rasool.they are quoting every thing out of context.We are all in 7th century arabia and we are licking the ara b arse. We want to nuke the bustards.Allah please help us moslems.Mummy help us.Mohammad help us,Ali zina I will kill you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ahhh that feels better.Lets us go back to child banging.Guys book my train to hyderabad!
Mr. London Spirit, Greetings
Mr. London Spirit, Greetings brother and thank you for your comment.
Kindly please go to the "Challenge" on top of page FFI. We claim that Muhammad was an assassin as one accusation against the holy prophet (PBUH). Can you please read that part, and let us know what kind of "out of context" we are doing.
thank you brother for your comment.
These are the different
These are the different translations of 8:12...
008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
Two of the translations do not say the word "remember" but "when" and that's a big difference. But no matter how Muslims water down the Qur'an to make it more palateable for the so called moderates, though everybody knows there is no moderate Islam, the translations are still violent and satanic.
Shit does not smell of
Shit does not smell of perfume how ever much you water it down! It has to be flushed out of sight.So shuld the qrand,mohammad amd moslems be! No point is served in watering it down.Even in smallest concentration sh1t is the same.Stink.Islam is evil stink
Hey Ali Sina!! You are the
Hey Ali Sina!! You are the Messiah we were all waiting for! You are the prophet of Malsi! Please induct me into Malsi.
I love Malsi! I am proud to be a Malsian!
And as a devout Malsian I can't wait to read the rest of the debate. I am myself into little debates with Muslims and I shall gleefully use every word of our Great Prophet Ali Sina to punch the brains of the followers of Malsi reversed.
And I have a few suggestions:
From here onwards followers of Malsi would also be called Milsums.
All the anti-Malsians are Rifaks!
And our One and Only God is Halla!
Ali Sina, our beloved Loosar, is the First, Last and Only Prophet.
Any more!!
I don't understand why you
I don't understand why you guys hate islam. Its is afterall the only true religion of allah and it means peace. Look around you and look at the peaceful muslims around you. All the terror strikes carried out in the name of Islam are done by Jewish, Christian and Hindu people. You see Muslims are very nice who only believe in Quran and the hadeeth which teaches us to live in peace and tolerance.
One of the best ways of bringing about peace is by converting all human population to Islam. Once our aim is achieved we can go around having a nice peaceful co-existance.
Behead those who insult
Behead those who insult masli. Chop their necks and chop their finger tips,Banish moslems from every where.throw them out from every nook and corner,let them find harshness in you that's un paralleled. Kill them all!
My halla is morror image of allah just as malsi is !
I hope the moslems do realise two things.
How ever much the islamic scholars try and defend the islam, there are certain stinky things in the pooh that can never be defended,
like Child molesting, beating the wives, killin the kafirs. etc.Out of context crap and all other excuses the deluded moslems give is all outlined a number of times.
Dear Ibrahim, May the Love
Dear Ibrahim,
May the Love and the Blessings of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you and ur family...
we sweet brother Islam really means Peace..but in reality its not...
we dont talk ab8 those who are doing bad things like killing abd bla bla..we dont say every moslim is terrorist..bt all terrosit are moslim..i dont say u r terrorist...and i realy value humanity and love...but where Allah says Love and where Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) said to love...
tell me hoestly..widout marriage having a girl and do sex is wat...is it fair and Allah is Glad for this act.ofcurse may b allah is glad bt NOT GOD.
dont get harsh on this comment...
but instead of this think positivly...
lets suppose...
ur sister is married...
and if i come to ur area.
kill ur sister Hubby,ur Father and you and Thn take ur sister to bed and after tht in morning ur sister will b glad and will accept me and all my works,and Praise to God..
is it possible...do u accept tht..well mine sister will never accept tht..and sure ur sister too..
and if accept thn wats ab8 tht night sex wat we call it...
its a holy sex right...
coz after tht in moring she will be married..
man forGod sake...try to understand...wat a Man he was..
if he was really chosen one from GOd...no way....
y God changes his words,,
in Bible God said Love ur enemies
and in Quran Allah says Kill
they both are not same God.only one of Thm is true God..u've to decide.who is real GOd.God of Bible r Allah of Quran.
i love it tht u love Peace
bt u r ot following Islam thn...u cnat travel at a time in two boats..
otherwise u'll not reach to bank of the river..
u've to chose one..
coz Quran clearly says...
dnont make frndship wid Christian and Jews...
y simple they are not human beings...
wat ab8 women..beat ur wife...and beat and sex forcly if she dont have mode for sex.and u know in moderan days...forced sex is called rape not love...
Bible says Love ur wife like u love urself...not beat ur wife...
men and women are equal in Bible.but not in Quran.man are allowd to ahve four wives...even ur gf dont allow u to have other gf thn how ur wife allow u to have other wive..whn u dont allow ur wife to have sex wid any other man.thn how u can do tht...and u know it will never ever happen in ths world tht ppl will come to Islam..no way..coz now ppl r understanding...and now more thn Christinas Muslims are converting to Christianity...
tht fair and u can search as well...
i've alot of things to write bt lack of space and time i cant...hope u cant understand and write me back
Oh my god the level of
Oh my god the level of stupidity of moslems is really absurd! Ali sina is saying the verses of the qrand and says if there is a religion malsi and it says and just inserts the verses of the raddi qrand .Its unbelievably stupid and idiotic.No wonder moslems claim win always!
I may be a fool, but
I may be a fool, but thankfully not a moslem. I may be a fool, but thanks to my god,Ceratinly not th epimp allah. I do not approve and follow the teachings of the pedophile prophet who taught you scum bag moslems
1.How to sleep with children aged 6 and below.
2,Taught you scum bags how to thigh an infant.
3.Taught you scoundrel moslems how to rape the right hand possessions.
5.Taught you despicable moslems how to sleep with your own daughters and have sex.
5.Taught you bright scum bags how to lie, cheat, steal,rob ,kill etc.Do I need to go on? I am a fool but am proud that I am not a moslm scum bag
Jah God Bless u... i'm not
Jah God Bless u...
i'm not talking ab8 culter...dear,,,if ur talking ab8 americans...thn u can say Bible allows Lesbians,Bible allows Biknis.u cna say bible allaows gays..bt this is not the fact...
instead of critcizing my dear read the whole post which i post..u not even ui Dr.Zakir and many scholars are doing the same thing,so u r also muslim so u have to do the same.Dear...things are to understand not to play...
y u dont understand..tell me wat happend with Jewish girl do u think she happily acept all this...if this happen to ur sister will she accept..and He didnt married her at tht night he had sex wid her tht night married her next morning..so wat we call tht night sex HOLY SEX..r trile sex to check is she able to b the wife of Allah chosen one r not.
hey JAH instead of
hey JAH
instead of Critiizing..y dont u understand..y dont u consider all these logics...
dont blame urself...coz these are the realities.
The evil cult that promotes
The evil cult that promotes thighing of the infant rightfully belongs to you and your rasool.Neither Do I approve of sleeping with daughters nor Do I respect peope who do that evil. If you support the rasool, you approve of all the evil things he did. so you are evil too.
hey proudkafir this is not
hey proudkafir this is not fair...we should not judge others...infact u should b sorry for tht...bt things are true either Jah belive r not b they are true..bt we should not say like this to any one tht u r evil...let thm live the way they are living....
i'm sorry bt i hope u understand wat i mean...
this is evil and we should Pray for thm thy accept this reality and turn to God..we should show thm love...and shuold Pray for thm instead of calling thm evil...thy even know this too...
u know one of my female frnd said tht beating wife is right according to Quran,,,and thn i said if ur hunny beat u thn,,,she was not able to answer...
if ur wife is not agree for sex at night beat her and force her...bt thy dont accept it as a rape..coz there is no word rape in Islam...so how thy can say its rape...thy can beat there wife...if the same thing happen to there sisters...its wrong..wao nice na
no one is on islam...only the country which are degreading women and insulting human rights they are practicing the true islam
#4. krishna786 Says: Hope
#4. krishna786 Says:
Hope some of the so called Hindu guru’s read the debate.Maybe it will help them in future to debate muslims,instead of feeding us the crap that all religions lead to “One God”
Krishna, I think you are referring to Sri Ravishankar. Pl remember that the reason Hindus do not defend their faiths as well as you want to is, we are suffused with a healthy skepticism. I know my path is most likely the right one, but it does not mean that there exists no other correct way. I am open to change, and don't mind ridding my system of aberrations, or adapting appealing ideas from another religion.
On the other hand, both christianity and islam seek an unchanging order, and swear that their creed alone leads to salvation. It is but a step ahead to say all others are false, and their adherents will burn in the hell-fires.
Hindus also appreciate the fact there is no ONE absolute truth concerning any given situation. The reality around us is rarely in pure black and white, but rather in shades of gray.
Apparently, in your eyes, these are weaknesses - but remember that India is the only country where both islam and christianity arrived with the sword and tried every means of persecution and coercion, but could not convert the majority, or obliterate existing cultures.
I think it is futile debating zakir naik and his ilk, for they are so deluded and conceited that they will never see the truth. You must have read the recent hilarious debate Sina had on the question of megalomania and narcissism. Serves for good entertainment, but do you think it changed the bloke's heart? No way.
Let us remain open, skeptical, receptive to criticism, and above all, intellectually unshackled.
Hard shell of Islam has
Hard shell of Islam has started breaking from within.It is a very encouraging that many intelligent muslim scholars are comming forward to expose the intolerence,violent,illogical and inhuman natur of islam.World has become a global village and nothing can be hidden from rest of the world,sooner or later it has to be exposed.So Islam is being exposed Sura by Sura,Ayat by Ayat,and Hadith by Hadith,jehad by jehad, and Taqqia dar Taqqia.It is not that other religions are of gold,but they are ready to change for the good and humanity and are becoming rationalists,and are loosely conected to thier old faiths. All religions except Islam are trying to become kind and democratic and universal. But Islam is becoming more rigid,violent and irrational and evil, day by day,and in the same ratio
more and more muslims are leaving it day by day.
FFI & Ali Zina will be remembered as a great Hero,Emencipator and Liberator of muslims and of closed minds in the world.
#16 Londonspirit writes Ali
#16 Londonspirit writes Ali Sia quoting out of context.
Can u tell me on what context did Mo marry the 6 year old child Aisha?
an on what context did Mo slept with Safia same day after killing her male relatives?
#16 Lonspirit wrote "[8:12]
#16
Lonspirit wrote
"[8:12] Recall that your Lord inspired the angels: “I am with you; so support those who believed. I will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved. You may strike them above the necks, and you may strike even every finger.
This verse is relating to a war. When the muslims fighted the disblilevers they were scared so Allah telling them that he has made the disbelivers scared even more. And to finish the people at the battle you have been given permission to strike them and kill them in battle."
Why must there be a distinction ie believers and disbelievers? Why can't you follow your religion without forcing it on others? Did the disbelievers cause the war or Muslims did?
My dear friend, not a SINGLE Muslim country treats it's minority equally and it has never happened a single time when Muslims were majority in ALL of Islams history. You need to read a book and educate yourself.
"If you think this is barbaric. Look what usa are doing to the people of afganistan, iraq. Raping iraqi gals. Tieing one hand to a post and and the other hand to a car and then accelrating the car until the hands rip off. Dont you think that is barbaric. I would rather die than be tortured. We dont allow torture. People with no morals dont care cause they think no one is watchin and they will not get punished. Oh yeah An the humiliation of the iraqi men in the jail. Does that answer your question?"
Pure garbage out of a Madrassah. I am hereby challenging to you PROVE it!!!! Prove it that American GI's are torturing Afghanis and Iraqi's!!! You bloody barbarians! You are so quick to point out flaws in others while totally giving a pass for yourselfves and now you're manufacturing lies.
Do you know what Afghans history is? The countless invasions of Punjab, todays Pakistan and N.India?
Bloody walking, talking parrots. Read a book, surf the net and open up that brainwashed mind.
Dear Nusrat Ali... u r right
Dear Nusrat Ali...
u r right r worng,,,,
but i appericate ur words...
this is true...i dont know y ppl still close there eyes...i dont know y thy dont wanna understand..
LEt leave it to God...
I can't get it. My comment
I can't get it. My comment n#12 stills awaits moderation.
From the site linked above
From the site linked above "sunninews.co.cc" there is an article talking about economic crisis saying that sharia finance was not affected by the current crisis. furthermore , it is only focused on tangilbe goods. However, these Gulf States sold oil $150/bbl in a asset in stock market exchange, I don’t know the name in English,but it is the expectancy of reaching in the near future the value of $150/bbl. So,it is not a tangilble value, just a speculative one. The “real” value is indeed $40/bbl. That was the reason,when the market stock exchange collapsed, the oil value dropped.
So,why on Earth did the fiefs from Gulf States(such as Caustic Sodium Arabia) sold oil on a non-tangilble price, although higher, if they are to follow the tenets of Pislam? Was it Economic Jihad?
Jamshed Iqbal says: "Peaceful
Jamshed Iqbal says: "Peaceful coexistence of human family has been my main concerns of thought and writings."
Sorry to burst your bubble but it is your cult of Islam that makes any sort of peaceful co-existence impossible. Islam seeks to dominate, not to co-exist. Islam does not believe in the noble concept of the human family but instead divides the peoples of our world between true believers and infidels.
Dump Islam and then and only then will true peace and harmony follow.
10 demerits of why islam
10 demerits of why islam should not be accepted.
1.The nut case rasool was a betichod.He screwed his own daughter.it's repulsive and inhuman behaviour.
2.The pimp allah the rasools alter ego supplied girls here on earth and was willing to supply houries( whores) in jannat,
3.The rasool screwed a child aged 6 years and taught the followers to do the same.
4.The rasool taught the followers how to lie and cheat.
5.the rasool taught the followers to kill and rob the kafirs.
6.the beti chod pedophile rasool raped women after killing their husbands.This was called marriage by the brain dead zombies of Islam.
7.the nut case rasool wanted people to not think,
8.the nut case pedophile narcisistic bustard taught the followers to beat their wives.
9.The lazy rasool was a sex maniac with a leaky floppy dik and considered thighing of infants a good habit.
10.the rapist rasool felt that its ok to screw the slaves right hand possessions.
The zombies need no reason to be in this cult of brain dead moronic cult called islam.spit on allah, beti chod mohammad and the stupid arse holes moslems
JAH, Mashallah. You are very
JAH, Mashallah. You are very good at copy pasting. May Allah give strenght to your copy paste job Ameen, may Allah provide you with adress of more propaganda websites from where you can copy paste stuff, Amee.
That's my Dua for you RAH, Inshallah you will end up being a great copy paste guy and will never allow the memories of your former AVTAR , Amina AMIN One God, Faith One, die.
POMA
Oye you called me a terrorist. I will kill you in the name of Allah, never say that Islam is not a peaceful religion. Our beloved Prophet taught us that whoever says that Islam not a religion of peace should be killed in the worst possible way. And those Muslims fighting are not terrorists. Its Allah who guides their rockets at the Kuffar and its Allah who guides their bullets into the hearts of the enemy.