On it there are Nineteen (Qur'an 74:30)
Submitted by Ibn Kammuna on Tue, 10/13/2009 - 05:07
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In this article, I discuss verse 74:30 in the Qur'an. The flow of the article will be as follows: I will ask the reader to read with me verse 74:30 in the Qur'an. We will try to decipher the meaning of that verse from the context. Trust me, this verse is clear when read in context. After that, I will discuss some website that made a big deal out of this verse. I will introduce some of what this site says, then provide some critical analysis on the claims presented there.
Reading verse 74:30 (from Yusuf Ali translation)
074.024 Then said he: "This is nothing but magic, derived from of old;
074.025 "This is nothing but the word of a mortal!" 074.026 Soon will I cast him into Hell-Fire! 074.027 And what will explain to thee what Hell-Fire is? 074.028 Naught doth it permit to endure, and naught doth it leave alone!- 074.029 Darkening and changing the colour of man! 074.030 Over it are Nineteen. 074.031 And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this?" Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind. 074.032 Nay, verily: By the Moon, 074.033 And by the Night as it retreateth, 074.034 And by the Dawn as it shineth forth,- 074.035 This is but one of the mighty (portents), 074.036 A warning to mankind,- 074.037 To any of you that chooses to press forward, or to follow behind;- 074.038 Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds. Now that you read the verse, may I ask what do you think it is talking about? When I read such verses, I may not understand every aspect of them, but it seems very clear that verse 74:30 above talks about something in hell. This is a very evident fact (note verses 26 and 27 as a prelude to what Allah is talking about). Major Tafsirs agree with our reading. Below is what Jalalyn and Ibn abbas say about this verse:Jalalyn
There are nineteen [keepers] standing over it, angels, its keepers; a certain disbeliever, who was a mighty stalwart, said, ‘I will avail you seventeen of them, if you avail me [just] two’. God, exalted be He, says:
Ibn Abbas:
(Above it) above the Fire (are nineteen) angels; they are the keepers of the Fire.
Human creativity is amazing. Below, I provide the reader with two links to a website that made amazing “discoveries” about verse 74:30. There are people out there who made the number 19 in the above verse the basis of the claim that the Qur'an is miraculous. I will introduce those links below followed by some analysis of their claimed “Miracles”. This article was first motivated by a comment by "The Truth", an FFI reader, on FFI's web site. Here is his/her comment:
To Nameless —-You stated ["Islam claims to be the true religion of God, the burden of proof is on you people."] ++ Islam has already proved itself to be a true religion through the Miracle of the Koran. An example of a valid proof and solid evidence that can be examined in regard to the “Miracles of the Quran” and that it is a true religion of God can be found in the links below: 01. http://miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_02.html 02. http://miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_03.html What interests me is how Muslims think. In a previous article, I stated that, by definition, a miracle has to establish a physical event in the natural world, with at least one violation of one natural law. Some people believe in miracles. Some people don’t. Some people believe in a looser definition of miracles. Such people may see an answer to their prayer as a miracle. However, this does not fit a strict and objective definition to what a miracle is. In this sense, there is no such thing as mathematical or statistical miracles in the Qur’an. However, the above reader gave two links. So, I will play her/his game, and see if there is anything unusual (by definition I can’t with good conscious call such claims miracles or miraculous). The links are lengthy and detailed when one goes to them. So, I will only copy and paste relevant information. First Link: here is a table pasted from the first link
When one goes to this site, number 19 is made substantial in their analysis of the above table. Please note that the order of the letters was made to fit the Muslim scheme. Any Arab will see that the order of the Arabic letters is wrong. First, Arabic letters start from right to left. Second, why do we need to follow the Gematrical values of the Arabic letters. Would it not be better to follow the Arabic order of letters? After all it is an Arabic Qur'an
041.044 Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said: "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?" Say: "It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!"
It is evident that, if anything, the Arabic order of letters, and nothing else, should be followed. this was not done in the above table. A correct way of giving order values to the Arabic letters is to order them, from right to left (not like the above table) starting with "Alef"(a) as number 1, "Ba" (b) as number 2, "Ta"(t) as number 3, "Tha" (th) as number 4, and so on. This order was not followed. In fact, Gematrical values are not purely Arabic. In addition, in the Qur'an we use language to convey meaning. Why do we need to insert mathematics into this? and did Allah not know that most people are not very good in doing complicated mathematics? In any case, let me do some analysis of the above table. Please note that the above table has no "Hamza" in it (I provide an example of "Hamza" in the second table below). This is fine if we view the Hamza as not representing a letter. But look at the next table from the same site:
Please note the sixth letter above. It is what we call “Hamza” in Arabic. It is used as a letter in the above table. It was included to make things fit by the “miracle expert” of the site. If one argues that it is a letter, and should be included, then why did it not show up in the first table I presented to the readers?
Let me provide one more example of the deception of such Islamic miracles sites. Look at the following table provided by the same website:
There are many problems with the above analysis. Look under the seventh word. This is the letter “wow” (like “O” in English). There are similar letters like it that are ignored. There is the letter “B” which comes in first in words numbered 2nd and 15th. However, the critical error in the above analysis is in the 19th word/block. That word above is actually two words! The first two letters (L and M, pronounced “Lam”) should be a separate word on its own, just like the 18th word in the above table.
What I am trying to say is that Qur’anic miracle experts, with some “flexibility”, will be able to make things “fit”. Do you blame them?
You see, the job of a Qur’anic “miracle expert” is to “make things fit”. The first table above, adopts a sequential order of the Arabic letters that is wrong. It does not conform to pure Arabic language. But, it is a Qur'an revealed in Arabic after all. Consequently, all following analysis on that site is flawed. The second table shows how “miracle experts” lie. They can get by with that, since most readers do not know much about the Arabic language. The third table shows that a miracle expert needs to be trained well to be “flexible” enough to make things “fit”.
After all we need some imagination in our lives. Don’t we?
(1 vote)
Mr Ibn kammuna You are a
Mr Ibn kammuna
You are a kafir and your heart and mind has been blinded by allah the pimp and so you are unable to decipher qrand properly.The qrand is clear.Kill a kafir and or get killed while banging a kafir woman you go to heaven and in allah's whore house there will be 72 virgins and 28 boys and add them up.100 allah'serfect miracle and each man entering the whore house will have the sexual strength of 100 men! see the miracle of allah? Allah does things for a reason and you kafirs are jealous of allah and moslems and 100 times sex in whore house.
The so called numerical
The so called numerical miracle of quran are nothing but to attempt to deceive the Westerner. Muslim stupid scholar are only good at finding these numerical absurdity rather than contributing in science and technology.The bogus islamic science are pure deception,lie and stupidity.They are like parasite, only feed non muslim scholar's achievement and shamelessly claims this modern achievement were told by allah 1400 years ago.
If the Quran is really the
If the Quran is really the word of God, then we are to believe that the Bible is God’s Word. The Quran says that God’s word cannot be changed. It also says that the Bible IS the Right way. It was not until a few hundred years after the creation of the Quran that Muslims began to say that the Bible was corrupted, when they began to notice they did not agree, but before Mohammad gave the Quran, the Bible had been distributed all over the civilized world. In order for the Bible to have been corrupted, it would be an impossible task for anyone or any group to have gathered up all the Bibles in the world and change and redistribute them. No Muslim can say WHEN It was changed and by whom because it hasn’t been. The many seemingly contradictions have been explained and when one is filled with the Holy Spirit, [Comforter]Whom Jesus promised He would send to be IN His disciples and in US, the greatness of God’s power is revealed in the Holy Scriptures and the revelation of God’s vast dimentional wisdom is illuminated to them explaining what seems to be contradictions.
Hey you know what? The word
Hey you know what? The word Gematrical exists neither in oxford, webster or dictionary.com. I could not understand this lofty chicanery, but it stinks to the low hell-fires.
Read the verses, nothing
Read the verses, nothing special there, the usual monstrosity of the bully god is displayed in those verses, the religious nuts are proud of their bully, and because of their willful delusion, they somehow attached some miraculous outlook to the very verses that describes the torture chamber created by their merciful lord whose love knows no bounds, what a shame, the god-belief might have had a case if it was uniform and the holy books contained no contradictions, historical blunders, stupidities, gender inequalities and generally conform to a one objective item of belief that will save mankind with no discriminations, but what we have are gods whose characteristics are based on their followers' attitude and location, the founder of the barbaric Allah is himself barbaric, the more liberal Jesus produced the more accommodating Christianity, the Inca or Mayan gods obeyed the Mayan traditions, this is what happens when the need for evidence is disregarded.
There are two things about
There are two things about (74:31) that I find disturbing:
1. \Angels are the guardians of hell fire\.I thought that was Satan's (if he exist) job.
2.\Allah leads astray whom He pleases\.I thought Satan's job was to mislead people.
Is there any end to the similarities between Allah & Satan?
As for the rest of the verse,I'm clueless.
This discussion of "Nineteen"
This discussion of "Nineteen" would not be complete without mentioning Edip Yuksel, the translator of "Quran - a Reformist Translation." (This version merely softens harsh words in the text -- e.g. "beat" your women becomes "separate" them -- as in "beat it.") One associate, Rashad Khalifa, discovered the secret meaning of the verse, and he was assassinated in Tucson, AZ, in 1990, by the terrorist group al-Fuqra, with ties to al-Qaeda. Yuksel and his colleagues have a website, www.19.org, where they expound on a bizarre theory about this verse. The secret of 74:30 was discovered in 1974, which is 1406 (74x19) lunar years from its revelation. The letter values of the first verse of Surah 74 add up to 1974. The word RSHD (guidance) appears 19 times in the Quran. Etc. Etc. The whole construct of this theory falls apart, however, when one recognizes that the numbering of the Surahs in the Quran is not sequential, but arbitrary based on the length of the Surahs. Surah 1 which is one of the shortest, however, comes before Surah 2 which is the longest. This was done to open the Quran with something spiritual rather than discussing a cow. If the editors of the Quran stuck to their formula, Surah 74 would have been Surah 73.
More Taqiyyah, from the
More Taqiyyah, from the Religion that Worships A Pedophile. Allahu Snakbar.
santiago - 1. \Angels are
santiago -
1. \Angels are the guardians of hell fire\.I thought that was Satan’s (if he exist) job.
2.\Allah leads astray whom He pleases\.I thought Satan’s job was to mislead people.
Please wait till you get the correct translation/Interpretation from LS/KL/T.Truth. do not come to any conclusion.
These MFs wills try to convince you that the Evil spirit(ALLA) is the GOD and Rapist Pedo MO is Devil's Prophet.
It is also worth reminding
It is also worth reminding people that the "Rashad" translation translates RSHD as "Rashad", ie the 'translator' inserts his name into the Koran text 19 times and says it is in the Arabic too - and thus claims a sort of demi-prophethood for himself as a result.
It is little wonder that he was assassinated by traditional moslems for whom any alteration of the ARABIC version of the Koran is (one of) the worst sin.
There is lots of refutation etc by both moslem and non-moslem sources online and this "miracle" has been de-bunked from multiple directions.
Please explain why Quran say
Please explain why Quran say this?
verse 79: 32: And the mountains hath He firmly fixed - وَالْجِبَالَ أَرْسَاهَا
Elementary basic principle of geology say that mountains has grown ALONE by themselves by a push upward due to the collision between the earth plates.
Here is Wikipedia and all books of geology say that:
Geology
A mountain is usually produced by the movement of lithospheric plates, either orogenic movement or epeirogenic movement. The compressional forces, isostatic uplift and intrusion of igneous matter forces surface rock upward, creating a landform higher than the surrounding features.
So who is wrong geologists or Quran?
I need an answer on that
I need an answer on that question, a SCIENTIFIC answer! Not answer who talk about consequences or the role that mountain have on the soil and things like that!
My question is very simple!
Are they been FIRMLY FIXED by some one or they have GROWN ALONE due to a geological phenomena?
So please answer!
Moderators, I am bit
Moderators, I am bit off-track here. Excuse me for that. But this news is of utmost importance to all kafirs. Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhYtJKJkH1Y ; a 17-yr school girl was raped by two muslim goons in a moving car. These two youths were caught and got a good public beating. In the video, I enjoyed watching the woman kicking the rapist. The rapists were doing some stageshow before kidnapping the school girl. Seeing the public outburst, the Gujarath police first allowed the public to vent their anger on the culprits and then arrested them... Good move naah?
"After all we need some
"After all we need some imagination in our lives. Don’t we?"
I say:
LOL.
Nineteen is Really Seven
According to Christoph Heger, "nineteen" is a misreading of "seven". (http://www.christoph-heger.de/Surah_74_30.htm) Thus, the verse refers to the 7 gates of Hell. So,this is really a description of Christian Hell and predates Islam.
74:31 is Clearly an Islamic Interpolation
Much of this sura rhymes and consists of single sentence verses. 74:31 breaks the rhyme scheme and is several sentences long. This is evidence that it is an interpolation made after the sura was composed by Chrisitians.