Did the Prophet endorse suicide bombing?
Submitted by Ali Sina on Sat, 07/25/2009 - 19:09
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PDF versionA Response to Dr. Mohammad Omar Farooq
A couple of years ago, I invited Mr. Tawfiq Idris, a self proclaimed Catholic priest who converted to Islam to explain what he finds in Islam so compelling. I sent him four emails. Mr. Idris, chose silence. I never heard a squeak from him.
Someone mentioned this in a blog created by a Muslim terrorist also known as Mujahid, and complained that the scholars’ silence vis-à-vis criticism of Islam can lead many Muslims to vacillate in their faith.
The terrorist responded, “Efforts of Murtideen don’t need a “Debate” as a response. They should get what they deserve and what Shariah order us to do with such people. Beheading them. And Inshallah this Pig of Faithfreedom will soon meet this definite fate.”
Someone alerted me to this discussion and I joined that blog nicknamed as Zafar, and posing as a concerned Muslim begged this terrorist to answer the charges. This man was inviting Muslim youths to join the Jihad, kill until they are killed. Was he able to defend logically the faith for which he was ready to take so many lives?
The terrorist’s response was the same. He insisted that Muhammad never explained his religion to anyone. He sent ultimatums to the rulers and if they did not accept him, he raided their towns and imposed his religion on their inhabitants by force. He said, “arguing with someone about Islam always lead to confusion and mislead the person towards Irtadaad (apostasy)” and added, “The True Path, The True Solution was Qitaal (fighting and killing) at that time. Is Qitaal today, and WIll be Qitaal forever, no matter how much the time will change.”
The fact is that this terrorist knew his religion well and unlike most Muslims who shamelessly conceal the truth and lie to you in your face, he was very candid about what Islam really is. At no time Muhammad tried to reason and to explain his claim in a logical way. He simply resorted to threats and violence. That was how Islam spread during his time and after him. In the field of reason, he was very weak.
Today, some Muslim intellectuals think they can do what their prophet failed to do and try to defend Islam logically. As the result they expose the fallacies of Islam more and bring further disgrace and disrepute upon their religion.
I have extended an open invitation to all the Muslim scholars to respond to my charges against Muhammad, and to prove me wrong. I have promised to publicly announce my defeat, to shut down faithfreedom.org, and to even pay them $50,000 dollars reward if they can prove any of my charges against Muhammad wrong. Few have taken up this challenge. My debates with those who were valiant to debate are published for all to see. These debates have caused more doubts in the minds of Muslims and have led many of them to leave Islam.
Following the tradition of their prophet, Muslim scholars avoid real debates. They will occasionally debate with Christians and use tu quo que in lieu of logic, but never debate with ex-Muslims because they know they cannot claim victory through logical fallacies. Even converts to Islam, like Hamza Yusuf, Yusuf Islam, Yusuf Este, and Tawfiq Idris have been affected by the Islamic cowardice and have refused to answer this author’s invitation to debate. I asked these gentlemen to please explain what they saw in Islam that led them to convert. They did not respond. Doesn’t it mean that they cannot answer this question logically and their conversion has been whimsical?
However, Muslim or not, we are all humans and give in to temptation. Today I am going to talk about the temptation of Dr. Mohammad Omar Farooq, an associate professor of economics and finance at Upper Iowa University.
Dr. Mohammad Omar FarooqSahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 509: Narrated Salama bin Al-Akwa:
We went out to Khaibar in the company of the Prophet. While we were proceeding at night, a man from the group said to 'Amir, "O 'Amir! Won't you let us hear your poetry?" 'Amir was a poet, so he got down and started reciting for the people poetry that kept pace with the camels' footsteps, saying:-- "O Allah! Without You we Would not have been guided On the right path Neither would be have given In charity, nor would We have prayed. So please forgive us, what we have committed (i.e. our defects); let all of us Be sacrificed for Your Cause And send Sakina (i.e. calmness) Upon us to make our feet firm When we meet our enemy, and If they will call us towards An unjust thing, We will refuse. The unbelievers have made a hue and Cry to ask others' help Against us." The Prophet on that, asked, "Who is that (camel) driver (reciting poetry)?" The people said, "He is 'Amir bin Al-Akwa'."
Then the Prophet said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him." A man amongst the people said, "O Allah's Prophet! has (martyrdom) been granted to him. Would that you let us enjoy his company longer." Then we reached and besieged Khaibar till we were afflicted with severe hunger. Then Allah helped the Muslims conquer it (i.e. Khaibar). ... So when the army files were arranged in rows (for the clash), 'Amir's sword was short and he aimed at the leg of a Jew to strike it, but the sharp blade of the sword returned to him and injured his own knee, and that caused him to die. When they returned from the battle, Allah's Apostle saw me (in a sad mood). He took my hand and said, "What is bothering you?" I replied, "Let my father and mother be sacrificed for you! The people say that the deeds of 'Amir are lost." The Prophet said, "Whoever says so, is mistaken, for 'Amir has got a double reward." The Prophet raised two fingers and added, "He (i.e. Amir) was a persevering struggler in the Cause of Allah and there are few 'Arabs who achieved the like of (good deeds) 'Amir had done."
After quoting this hadith Dr. Farooq concluded:So, did Amir commit suicide and the Prophet praised his "suicidal" action? No. Amir DID NOT commit suicide and the Prophet DID NOT praise suicide. Such are the glaring misrepresentations and lies being spread about Islam!
Such exposure of lies or ignorant claims of these former Muslims may not stop them from their anti-Islamic propaganda, but Muslims themselves need to be educated about Islam and its various sources (the Qur'an, hadith, history books, commentaries, etc.). More importantly, Muslims need to be educated in these regards in a self-critical manner.
Does this hadith make Islam look better? We never said Muhammad encouraged suicide. Although he himself attempted it, he said that Allah will punish those who commit suicide. He encouraged murder-suicide. He said getting killed while killing in the path of Islam will attract the highest reward. So, if Amir had turned the sword on himself intentionally, he would have gone to hell, but since his intention was to kill a defenseless Jew and was killed accidentally by his own sword, his reward will be doubled. The moral of the story is clear. If you kill yourself you will go to hell, but if you are killed while attempting to kill an infidel you will be rewarded. Doesn’t this encourage suicide bombing? Many of the suicide bombers are frustrated people. They are ordinary Muslims who face a life crisis. Then they are told that if they kill non-Muslims and in the process end their own miserable life, they will be rewarded handsomely and all their problems will go away. Using this Islamic logic, an Iraqi woman had 80 young women raped then recruited as suicide bombers. Once these girls were raped, she told them that they are sinners, that there is no future for them either in this world or in the next. But there is one way out. The way out is to become martyrs. In this macabre enterprise no one was doing anything unIslamic and everyone thought he or she will be rewarded. In Islam you can commit all sorts of crimes and if they are done for the advancement of Islam you will be rewarded. The rapists, raped these poor girls belonging to their own religion, their own people, and thought they will be rewarded, because the goal was to convert them into soldiers of Allah. The woman who encouraged these victims of rape to become suicide bombers thought she will be rewarded too. And the victims themselves who carried out the suicide bombings thought they will be rewarded. In Islam, it is the intention that counts. If your intention is to murder non-Muslims, or even Muslims whom you think are murtad and do not interpret Islam in the "right" way, you will be rewarded. You can rape them, loot them, murder them and treat them with utmost savagery and you will be rewarded. This is Islam – the only major religion that is completely divorced from the Golden Rule and actually prescribes ghildhat, (harshness, cruelty) to unbelievers. (Q. 48:29; 9:123), Dr. Farooq ended his article saying “Life is the most precious and sanctified thing in this world. That applies to our lives and others' lives.” However, he failed to mention that the life of non-Muslims is not worth much. There are countless verses and hadiths that make this point clear. For example:Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them" (Q. 9: 5; 2:191)
orIt is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise. (Q. 8:67)
This sura, appropriately called Spoils of War, was written after the battle of Bar. Muslims did not want to kill the captives. They wanted to return them in exchange for ransom. But the bloodthirsty prophet of Allah wanted his vengeance. Hence in the above verse he told his followers, don’t worry about ransom, there is more to come. It does not behoove a prophet to stop killing just for a miser ransom. My thirst for blood must be satisfied. These captives derided me when I was in Mecca and now I want to take my sweet revenge. So he ordered the captives to be beheaded and their bodies thrown in a well. No matter how you look at it, what he did was war crime. Don't tell me about moral relativism. That beast claimed to be a prophet of God and he should have set a better example. It is shameful for Muslims, especially those who claim to be scholars and know the truth to tell us that Islam respects human life when the reverse is true. From the time Muhammad managed to fool a bunch of savages in Medina, he did nothing but raiding, looting and killing. How can anyone say Islam respects life when some estimate that more than 280 million people have been slaughtered by Muslims since the inception of Islam? Muslims follow the examples set by their prophet. The victims of Islam are increasing and will continue to increase until Islam is eradicated. No other cause has taken more tolls on humanity than Islam. Then Dr. Farooq quoted the Talmudic fairytale about Abel and Cain that is rehashed in the Quran to claim Islam respects human life.“We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land, it would be as if he slew the whole people; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our Apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land." [Qur'an 5:35]
What this story has to do with Islam is unclear. Why Muslims keep parroting it when this is not a teaching of Muhammad, but part of a nonsensical Jewish narrative that Muhammad recounted? Who is engaging in deception here? As far as Muhammad was concerned non-believers have to be killed, punished by Muslim’s hands, and covered with shame. (Q. 9:14). Muslims must kill the infidels and if in the process they are killed they will be rewarded in the afterlife. Doesn't this lead to suicide bombing? Which part of this Dr. Farooq wants to deny? It is amazing that Dr. Farooq is incapable to see the goriness of the hadith that he quoted. Muslims are so engulfed in evil that they cannot see it. This hadith alone is enough to prove Islam is evil, but to a Muslim who has been exposed to such evil teachings since his childhood, it is normal. I will send Dr. Farooq the link to this article. Does anyone think that he will respond? Muslims are valiant only in killing defenseless people. There ends their valor. When it comes to defending Islam logically they are timid. And Dr. Farooq wonders why Muslim youths are leaving Islam. It’s because they can see Islam is a lie and the so called Muslim scholars are phony. They are dumbfounded when Islam is criticized. All they can do is to kill, but they cannot answer logical questions. I will publish Dr. Farooq's response, if he ever responds. But don't hold your breath. Hell may freeze before Muslim schoalrs find the courage to confront ex-Muslims. Nothing will destroy Islam faster than such a confrontation. Muslim scholars know it. That is why they pertend they do not see us. That is why Muhammad prescribed swift death for apostates.
“We ordained for the Children
“We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land, it would be as if he slew the whole people; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our Apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.” [Qur'an 5:35]
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In your article you failed to emphasize this part of the above verse:
"unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land"
This is basically saying that killing non-muslims is ok if they are "spreading mischief". This quote is vague and "mischief" can mean many things. So muslims have another quote that they can use to justify killing infidels (not that they even need anymore).....................................
Islam is so much rotten to
Islam is so much rotten to the core. Its worst than nazism and only way is removing all mosques from west and deporting all muslims from the west. There should be a study subject called dangerous ideologies where islam. nazism etc should be taught to everybody. Just like a child is taught to avoid snake so a non-muslim should avoid muslims as much as possible. Let them live in 7th century barbaric style.
Muslims are most irrational, brutal and dangerous people. Islam and the filthy quran should not be allowed in peaceful human societies.
Hi friend Ali Sina Neither
Hi friend Ali Sina
Neither suicide nor suicide bombing is allowed by Quran/Islam/Muhammad. Please quote the verses from Quran with the context to prove your point.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
[...] “Did the Prophet
[...] “Did the Prophet endorse suicide bombing?” By paarsurrey http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/07/25/did-the-prophet-endorse-suicide-bombing/ [...]
Excellent article.
Excellent article.
paarsurrey says: "Neither
paarsurrey says:
"Neither suicide nor suicide bombing is allowed by Quran/Islam/Muhammad. Please quote the verses from Quran with the context to prove your point............."
Another example of word games from followers of "Religion of peace" Just tell me dont these jehadis allways show a copy of quran before blowing up people ? is it some different version ? The jehadis fully find justification of their insane acts through the holy books, is it not proof enough ?
If you look properly , people like you carry your day to day activities and learn your religious books at spare time , but the jehadis spend their whole lives only learning the holy books before blowing up people , so whom do you think has more knowledge of the books and understanding of religion ?
I bet if bombs would have been invented by time of muhammed , they would have found its way in holy texts by now
Paar When Muslims are out
Paar When Muslims are out killing and are killed that is suicide and approved by allah.
Mischief in the land is any religion but Islam. Mo was a slick man.
Rickishi, you got it! The
Rickishi, you got it! The word games that paarsurrey, and other muslims, play in this instance is with the word 'suicide'. No, they do not encourage suicide. BUT!! And that is a BIG BUT!
The article even says this, I quote: 'We never said Muhammad encouraged suicide. Although he himself attempted it, he said that Allah will punish those who commit suicide. He encouraged murder-suicide. He said getting killed while killing in the path of Islam will attract the highest reward.'
WE are the ones who have labeled it 'suicide bombers' or 'suicide bombings'. Because we are putting OUR morals on this whole thing. WE view it as suicide. These people think that dying while killing non-muslims deserves the highest reward. That is why the whole community celebrates, and especially the families, of these murderers because they are hoping the murderer names them as one of the saved too. It is the only way they know they will get to heaven without a question. Otherwise, it is NEVER assured to them they will attain heaven - no matter what they do.
And if they had half a brain cell they would figure out that their allah/mohammed were the greatest of deceivers - so all of it is just a bunch of hooey anyway!! IT EVEN SAYS THAT IN THEIR TEXTS.
Qur'an 9:3 "Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations."
NOTE:
paarsurrey - look up the previous and following surahs yourself - and I don't accept your translations of them anyway since you are not one of the accepted translators.
One more thing, in a religion
One more thing, in a religion that has dualism, we should look at the actions of the majority of muslims.
- none of them do anything to change the 'institution' of suicide bombers
- many celebrate when one of them is a suicide bomber
- telethons were held in order to donate to families of suicide bombers (remember after 9/11, the Saudis were holding telethons)
- we see children being trained for suicide bombings, especially the Palestinians (that I know of) as young as pre-kindergarten marching around with belts with fake bombs on them.
- oh, did I mention that not one protest of the masses come out to protest any of that - only when the infidels strike back at muslims. The audacity of those infidels! We might get a letter of condemnation from such ilk as CAIR while they fund terrorists such as Hamas. It is just to quiet us up about it all.
In the Name of Allah, Most
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Islam is a religion that God commanded humanity to follow as God Almighty “Allah” (s.w.t) said in Holy Qur'an Al Ma'idah 5:3:
"...This day I have Perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.
In Surah Aal-I-Imran 3:85, God Almighty “Allah” (s.w.t.) also says:
“If anyone desires a religion other than Islam never will it be accepted of Him and in the hereafter is one of the losers”.
The name of religion “Christianity”, “Judaism”, “Buddhism”, “Hinduism”, “Zoroastrianism”, and other sects and religions are not mentioned in their holy books (i.e. from very first page to last page of Bible whether in New Testament or Old Testament, and other holy book respectively) that God said mankind has to follow their religion respectively because these religions are made by men. They are not made by God. This is the reason that such religions are named after names of men who supposedly teach or reform the people. For example, Christianity is named after Jesus Christ(a.s.), Judaism after the clan Judah, Buddhism after the reformer Buddha, Hinduism after the tribe Hindus, Zoroastrianism after Zoroaster, etc... Finally, the most important reason of all, is that all of these religions in one way or another, WORSHIP A CREATION, which contradicts the Purpose of Creation.
If all the above mentioned religions don’t have evidence themselves that their religion is to be followed, so, how much more Darwin’s Theory of Evolution? All parts of human body and fossils discovered as evidence of the theory did not evolve but remain the same for billions and billions of years until today - - an evidence that they are created.
God Almighty “Allah” (s.w.t.) says so many times in the Qur’an how Allah (s.w.t.) Created All Creations as Signs for people to reflect. Allah (s.w.t.) chose the name Islam as a religion for humanity because of its meaning “Submission to the will and commands of Allah (s.w.t.)” . Obviously, ALL Creations including all parts of your body (i.e. heart beats, blood flows, etc...) function under the Will and Command of Allah (s.w.t.).
Think how all parts of your body, inside and outside, are systematically and intricately shaped, formed and organized, each part serves a purpose - - your heart beats, your blood flows, even the tiniest part that you don’t know exists. That is how God Almighty “Allah” (s.w.t.) puts or “commands” them to do. All parts of your body are true muslims than what you think - - not Christians, atheists or whatever religion you follow - - since they just function under the commands of Allah (s.w.t.).
"Islam is a religion that God
"Islam is a religion that God commanded humanity to follow."
Stop right here please. Where is the proof that Islam has anything to do with God. Before you quote us from the Quran telling us Allah says this or that, you have to first prove that the Quran is the word of God. Once you do that, it would be the end of discussion.
Please do not confuse the clima with the proof. You are making a claim that the Quran is the word of God. Where is the proof?
Dear Ali, Please refer me to
Dear Ali,
Please refer me to some sources where I where I can check the number of 280 Million non-Muslims slaughtered by Muslims since the invention of Islam by Muhammad.
Thank you
I would love to preset this information to the legislators of Hawaii who have just recently proclaimed the 24th of September as "Hawaii Day of Islam".
I would appreciate support with the following initiative:
I would like to make a "Hawaii Day for Honoring the 280 Million Victims of Islam"
Would love to get your assistance with this.
Thank you.
mpresent@gmail.com
Mr. Sina, this guy -
Mr. Sina, this guy - IslamTheTrueReligion - is posting the same thing on several different threads - at least the ones that I have been on. At least one other thread he posted this exact same post is on 'Shaming the Muslims of Islam (by Telling the Truth)'
To the submitter of the false
To the submitter of the false religion:
Sina sahib is right that there is no "proof that Islam has anything to do with God." I find it very funny that you operate on proofs assuming that your audience believes in those Qur'anic verses. Your use of circular logic is in no way convincing. You are saying something along the lines of this:
- Why is Islam true?
- The Qur'an says it.
- What does the Qur'an say?
- That Islam is true.
Let's call Islam by its rightful name, Muhammadanism. After all, Muslims do worship Muhammad in that they obey Muhammad.
Take the hadees on the authority of `Adi Ibn Hatim, it is reported that he heard the Messenger of Allah reciting this Qur'anic verse: " They have taken their rabbis and their monks as lords beside Allah and [they take as a lord] Al-Maseeh, `Eesaa, the son of Maryam, yet they were not commanded but to worship One God: None has the right to be worshipped but He - Praise and Glory to Him: [Far is He] from having the partners they associate [withHim]" (Qur'an 9:31) "...and I said to him : "We don't worship them." He said: "Do they not forbid what Allah has permitted and do you not then forbid it (to yourselves), and do they not make permissible for you what Allah has forbidden, and do you not then make it permissible (to yourselves)?" I replied: "Certainly!" He (may Peace Be Upon Him) said: "That is worshipping them." (Narrated by At-Tirmizi, who graded it as Hasan)
Are Muslims really worshiping God, or have they been deluded into following a misogynist charlatan who committed child abuse, banditry, genocide, sexual perversion and debauchery, rape, slavery, terrorism, fraud, iconoclasm, oppression, and various other crimes against humanity. Think about it, in namaaz, you recite Darood Shareef which is a form of personality cultism to Muhammad. Fajr has one darood, while the other four prayers have two, and without them your namaz is incomplete.
Look at the name Islam. Islam is derived from aslama, "submission" which is far removed from any peaceful connotation. Submission can only mean peace when there is a gun to your head. Is that really peace after all? Submit to shariah, and we'll leave you alone. You can give up your freedom to believe what you want as a Muslim, or you can be taxed to death paying jizya. Submission is not a good word. Submission is just a few steps away from outright slavery, which is a complete reversal of freedoms that man gained from the Western Enlightenment. If anything Islam makes you the biggest slaves to creation, to the mullahs.
Muslim apologists love to
Muslim apologists love to talk about context when verses from their Evil Quran are quoted by non-Muslims. When these critics of Islam quote the killing and enslaving verses which riddle the Evil Quran, the Muslims shriek about ''out of context'' and "what about the verses before it and after it".
Yet lo and behold, these same Muslims will unashamedly and deceitfully (like their Allah) quote Evil Quran 5:32 only - about the killing of one innocent person being the same as killing the whole of mankind. They then conveniently ignore the embarrassing verses before it and after it.
For example Q5:31: "Then Allah sent a raven scratching up the ground, to show him (Cain) how to hide his brother's (Abel's) naked corpse "
Just think about this verse for a minute everybody (most Muslims need years!) Allah, who is supposed to be the Supreme Creator of our Magnificent Universe and not just some mere petty desert god, is an accomplice to murder who proceeds to show Cain how to cover up this despicable crime of fratricide. Actually conspiring to defeat the ends of justice. Is this the type of god we are supposed to worship? Not in a million years!
Then after Q5:32 we have the horrifying verse Q5:33 which commands:
"The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His Messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their feet and hands on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom."
Now think about this verse everybody. Is this from a loving and merciful God? Those sincere non-Muslim people, who in all conscience asked for proof of Muhammad's unilateral claim to be a true prophet of God and who in self-defense resisted his brutal aggression and forced conversion, being arbitrarily labeled enemies of God. This de-humanizing of his critics now excusing cruel and unusual punishment. Does this get any sicker than this?
Incidentally Q5:32 clearly commands Jews only (Children of Israel) to observe this command. Nowhere in the Evil Quran and Foul Hadiths does it command Muslims to observe this noble rule. Which is why we have the curse of Jihad being observed by Muslims only.
IslamTheTrueReligion.........
IslamTheTrueReligion............This day I have perfected your religion. It means before that day our religion was imperfect/incomlete. Which was the special item told by Prophet (pbuh) that day which caused the completion of our religion, moreover, God chose for us the religion Islam. It means before making this choice God must have considered other religions also. Which were they?
Round aplause for true muslim
Round aplause for true muslim who is in hell and ones who ready to go to hell, booo... for those who's taking part of the script and disregards others
poor suicide bomber dont have money to pay 'mahr' for sex, so instead they fall victim of women in paradise who's never had period (blow up dolls)
quran is just collection of gibbrish, prone to misinterpretation, ask ahmadi follower which islam is right one
***He insisted that Muhammad never explained his religion to anyone. He sent ultimatums to the rulers and if they did not accept him, he raided their towns and imposed his religion on their inhabitants by force***
exactly right when look on islamic timeline, conquer, battle, defeated until the time of crusader, even so they still continue after.
we should thanks the crusader, otherwise we might still think the earth is flat
Hi friends So our friend Ali
Hi friends
So our friend Ali Sina did not find a verse for one to commit a suicide or doing a suicide bombing. It is not there.
May I know as to what denomination Ali Sina was before he left Islam; and what religion he joined afterwards?
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
[...] What denomination Ali
[...] What denomination Ali Sina was before he left Islam; and what religion he joined afterwards? By paarsurrey http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/07/25/did-the-prophet-endorse-suicide-bombing/ [...]
Paarsurrey, Are you a
Paarsurrey,
Are you a follower of Muhammad, aren't you? And you believe him as to be a prophet of God and model to emulate for morality, dont you?
Then, it is written in the Quran that muhammad cheated on his wife with a cute maid of his wife. So now, do you believe all those things above about muhammad to be true?
To Ali Sina If you are so
To Ali Sina
If you are so desperate for Muslims to respond to you logically then why are your moderators and editors removing my posts, which, I can assure you have not been abusive or irrelevant?
I have been responding to Pooo's question on Science and Islam and I provided the link to your debate with Nadir Ahmed of Examine the Truth (where you lost miserably) and my post was removed. My subsequent postings were not displayed. period.
Why?
Paarsurrey says: "Neither
Paarsurrey says: "Neither suicide nor suicide bombing is allowed by Quran/Islam/Muhammad. Please quote the verses from Quran with the context to prove your point."
My response:
I am sure both you and Ali Sina know that there are no clear verses as such in the Quran or Muhammad actually advocating suicide.
My question to you: Can you produce even one verse from your Quran or from Muhammad condemning suicide?
I bet you can’t.
Here’s another tricky question for you about circumcision:
I bet nobody, including you, all your moolas in their various manifestations or even the imaginary Muslim Jinns, can produce even one Quranic verse ordering circumcisions for men or women either. Yet over a billion Muslims practise circumcision because it is Sunna.
Similarly you also have millions of Muslims all over the world believing suicide-bombings or martyrdom-operations (as they disingenuously call, it) are legitimate against those they perceive to be enemies of Islam. Even if they don’t actually do it themselves, they give these so-called Shahids hero-status.
To Ali Sina With regards to
To Ali Sina
With regards to this current Article I can draw a clear conclusion. That Islam clearly does not endorse suicide. Full Stop. You then start using loose and self-concocted terms like "Murder-Suicide"! What on God's green earth is Murder Suicide?
Suicide is suicide. It's not rocket science. If Islam is strictly against suicide, that includes ALL forms and methods of suicide, inlcuding your own additions to the English language, known as murder-suicide. Call it whatever you want, try to cloud the subject as much as you want, but you cannot escape the fact that Islam is vehemently against knowingly taking your own life (including murder-suicide, suicide-bombing, suicide-missiling, suicide-falling from the sky and hitting the enemy targets because they are infidels). Suicide is just not debateable in Islam and you know full well that suicide bombing is a new phenomenon that has never existed in Islam for centuries.
On the other hand dying in combat is something entirely different! There is no parralel between the two.
To Shafee Al-Zindig You
To Shafee Al-Zindig
You said:
My question to you: Can you produce even one verse from your Quran or from Muhammad condemning suicide?
I bet you can’t.
I say:
“And do not throw (yourselves) with your own hands to destruction; but work (deeds of) excellence for verily Allah loves the people of excellence.” [Sûrah Baqarâh 2:195]
“And do not kill yourselves. Surely, Allâh is most merciful to you.” [Sûrah Nisa 4:29]
“Whoever kills a soul – unless for another soul or for corruption (vice and mischief spread) in the land – it is as if he had slain the whole of mankind. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved the whole of mankind.” [Sûrah Ma’idah 5:32]
"Whoever throws himself down from a mountain and kills himself, he will be in the Fire of Hell throwing himself down for ever and ever. Whoever drinks poison and kills himself will have the poison in his hand, drinking it in the Fire of Hell forever and ever. Whoever kills himself with a piece of iron (i.e. a weapon) will have that piece of iron in his hand, stabbing himself in the stomach with it in the Fire of Hell forever and ever." The Prophet Muhammad (Compiled in Sahih Bukhâri).
The circumcision question is ridiculous! Are you serious about an answer?
I like how all the muslims
I like how all the muslims are complaining to either Ali Sina, or to non-muslims, about how the koran doesn't say to be a suicide bomber and yet none of them are bothered that it is being done in islam.
Heck - why tell us? Stop it then. Start protesting all the Palestine children from marching around with suicide belts on. (not one peep will come out of them - instead they get bothered that we show a picture, or a video, about them - or they ignore it hoping that we forget about it).
Here is a link of a search I did on only these words 'suicide bomb children'
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=suicide+bomb+children&search...
If you use different words, you will get even more. And then if you just do a google search on it you will get results that show some in the Taliban are buying children for suicide bombers. Iran, Afghanistan, Al Qaeda, etc all use children for suicide bombers.
And no muslim country has done anything noticable to stop the Taliban, or Al Qaeda - especially before we went in. Not one Muslim country even bothered, or cared, about any abuse of their fellow muslims by what they keep telling us are the 'misunderstanders of islam', such as the Taliban, Al Qaeda, etc. Instead we get protests on the streets when such ilk as Hamas is finally attacked back after they have been attacking Israel on a daily basis. And not a peep out of those protestors that the Hamas hide behind women and children. We didn't get a peep out of any muslim when Hezbollah did it either. Instead they use the dead they hide behind as propaganda.
kabirlaw provided verses from
kabirlaw provided verses from the quran wherein muhammad is purpoted to be condemning suicide. He quoted :
“And do not throw (yourselves) with your own hands to destruction; but work (deeds of) excellence for verily Allah loves the people of excellence.” [Sûrah Baqarâh 2:195]
The above quote is just the later part of the verse. The verse in entirety reads as follows :
YUSUFALI: And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good.
PICKTHAL: Spend your wealth for the cause of Allah, and be not cast by your own hands to ruin; and do good. Lo! Allah loveth the beneficent.
SHAKIR: And spend in the way of Allah and cast not yourselves to perdition with your own hands, and do good (to others); surely Allah loves the doers of good
--------->Evidently muhammad commands muslims to spend towards their Allah(read religion). The threat of destruction could mean hell fire as mentioned in many other verses. Despite all the twists by kabirlaw, there is no direct reference that Allah (read muhammad) condemns suicide.
The other verse quoted by kabirlaw :
“And do not kill yourselves. Surely, Allâh is most merciful to you.” [Sûrah Nisa 4:29]
The actual verse reads as follows :
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful!
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Squander not your wealth among yourselves in vanity, except it be a trade by mutual consent, and kill not one another. Lo! Allah is ever Merciful unto you.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not devour your property among yourselves falsely, except that it be trading by your mutual consent; and do not kill your people; surely Allah is Merciful to you
The above three reliable translations provide its true context, believers are commanded (1)not to squander wealth & (2) Not to kill yourselves(beleivers)---Yusufali ; Not to kill one another---Pickthal ; Not to kill your people---Shakir.
It is evident from above kabirlaw is playing al takia by producing half truths.
Kabirlaw: Where on earth did
Kabirlaw: Where on earth did you obtain such imaginative and deceptive translations of your Quran? Numerous translations in my library and my own understanding of Arabic give me another meaning.
2:195 "And spend in the Cause of Allah (i.e. Jihad of all kinds) and do not throw yourselves to destruction (by not spending your wealth in the Cause of Allah and do good. Truly, Allah loves the good-doers"
(Hilali and Khan translation)
4:29: "O ye who believe! Squander not your wealth among yourselves in vanity, except it be a trade by mutual consent, and kill not one another. Lo Allah is ever merciful unto you.
5:32 Please see my comment at 8:58 am July 26 regarding this verse.
Your Bukhari quote conveniently omits the pertinent disclaimer "Unless it be in the Cause of Allah (Jihad). "
Why is the circumcision question ridiculous? Yes, I do want an answer.
Ali Zina and his Pagan
Ali Zina and his Pagan masters know very well that ISLAM (Peace and Submission to God's Will) is the only true Religion in the world - the Religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. While his Pagan masters haven been trying their best to destroy ISLAM (PEACE) since its inception and miserably failed, a tiny pagan like him is dreaming from a dark hole to destroy the same! It is as though he is trying to move Himalaya Mountain to emerge into the Atlantic Ocean using his head! Hahahaha! We also know very well that the liar and deceiver like him has been suffering from insomnia for the last ten years.
Thanks Dajjal for your
Thanks Dajjal for your comment with additional clarifications of these misquoted verses of Kabirlaw. I could not have said it better myself.
Yes Marie! Excellent
Yes Marie! Excellent article!
Non-Christians will go to hell! Because your god Jesus loves them!
kabirlaw: Any truly "living"
kabirlaw:
Any truly "living" language is always borrowing/inventing words for itself.
The expression "suicide-bomber" is relatively new - and a (partial) misnomer.
I dislike it because it carries an implication that there is only the suicide of the bomber involved- would that that were true!
A more accurate description would be "murder-bomber". There are tens of thousands of corpses strewn around the globe as evidence. The term "murder-suicide" is a good way of describing the actions on the so-called 'suicide-bomber'.
S/he blows up killing or maiming those around him/her and (incidentally) dies (by his/her own hand) at the same time. So the action is well described as "murder-suicide".
I will grant that (l'll use the convention!) suicide bombers are a new invention ... but until quite recently (historically speaking) the mechanisms to carry out such attacks were not available.
I think someone staggering towards a market full of women and children (a favoured target it seems) carrying a keg of gun-powder with a burning fuse sticking out the top might be a teeny-weeny bit obvious not to mention suspicious.
---
I must admit I had never realised how clearly grounded in Koran and Hadith this form of murder was.
The Koran is clear that people who die in Jihad go straight to paradise, K4:74; 4:95.
The Hadith (above) shows that if one's weapon is "returned to [you] causing [you] to die" you get a "double portion" and die a "martyr".
Now, obviously, the 'suicide-bombers" weapons 'return to them and cause [them] to die' so that's in line with the Hadith and the Koran says they are assured of paradise if they die in Jihad.
So, all that is needed is someone to fight ... that's easy too, since all the world that isn't under Islamic governance is the "Dar-ul-Harb" = "World of War", an 'attack' just about anywhere is permissible I suppose, as we've seen in recent decades.
Oh, if you can 'make a case' that somehow the Umma is 'oppressed' (and of course they are - after all the Quran tells Muslims that they are the best of people and (naturally) the best people should rule, so if they aren't 'masters of the Universe' Muslims must be oppressed) then their is double reason to murder kufr "wherever you find them".
JAH: Yes Marie! Excellent
JAH:
Yes Marie! Excellent article!
Non-Christians will go to hell! Because your god Jesus loves them!
I say:
All nonmuslims will go to hell because Allah is merciful.
All Muslims will go to hell because they worship Satan.
I guess this means everyone is going to hell.
@Marie Non-Christians are
@Marie
Non-Christians are cursed and will go to hell! Because Jesus loves them!
Jesus said:
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Matthew 25:41)
“They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:42)
@Marie Jesus said,
@Marie
Jesus said, unbelievers (infidels) cannot be taken as friend:
“Do not be yoked together with unbelievers (infidels). For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?” (2 Corinthians 6:14-15)
“If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.” (2 John 1:10-11)
To: All Y'all I took the
To: All Y'all
I took the verses from the internet without specifically checking who the translation is by. In future, I confirm that I will use one of the three english translations you regularly mention.
Now, lets go back to the issue and use your own accepted translations: The title of this Article is "Did the Prophet endorse suicide bombing?" AGREED. I'll move on:
To answer it simply. The answer is NO. Because (1) there was no such thing as a bomb or suicide bomber in the Prophet's time. So he could hardly have endorsed something that quite frankly did not exist at that time. (2) Suicide is Haraam in Islam and there is consensus on this in the Islamic world. (3) The Prophet has clearly stated in the Bukhari hadith mentioned above that suicide is a NO NO. There is another hadith (I don't have it at hand and I will have to dig it up that mentions the fate of a person (who apparently was a good Muslim) until he committed suicide.
Now. Having failed that argument (does Islam endorse suicide) you people are now saying. Well, where does it say that Islam is AGAINST suicide in the Quran? I presented the above verses and hadith but you are now calling into question the translation. So, lets use the Yusuf Ali translations you people have submitted in the above posts:
Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful!
Lets accept that this verse is a specific injunction for Muslims only. Since muslims are allegedley the perpetrators of the suicide bombing act, this injunction clearly tells them not to kill or destroy themselves. In order for a suicide bombing to take place the believer WOULD HAVE TO kill him/herself and any Muslim accomplice will have also contributed to the suicide of his fellow believer by helping him. Does it get any clearer than that.
The other verse states:
and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction;
Now put this in any context you want. If a suicide bomber prepares and orchestrates a suicide mission by detonating the bomb and blowing himself up Has he or has he not contributed to his own destruction? I say he has done worse, he has not only contributed he was the SOLE contributor to his own destruction by destroying this special gift Allah gave him called LIFE.
Now, please move onto another topic because this really is a ridiculously silly article, making apparent that you people will stop at nothing to simply malign Islam and it's Prophet by linking all the ills of the known universe since the creation of the Cosmos to Muhammad (May Allah's peace and blessings be upkn him).
Kibirlaw: Strictly speaking
Kibirlaw:
Strictly speaking the Koran can't "condone" or condemn something it knows nothing of.
However, I think that the point that the article is looking at is whether or not 'authority' for such can be found within the corpus of Islamic writings - and with particular links to Koran/Hadith (which are taken as authoritative by the majority of Moslems).
You make three points. To reply briefly:
1. This point is weak on two fronts:
a) the issue is really to do with someone dying whilst killing an enemy (of Islam), the exact 'weapon' is hardly relevant to the core issue.
b). The logical extension of this is that neither does the Koran "condone" tanks, planes, machine-guns or other modern weapons, the same could be applied to any product of modern science, technology etc. Does this mean that they can't be used by Muslims either?
Points 2+3: I think you have become mesmerised by the word "suicide" in "suicide-bomber". In war, soldiers may be sent on 'suicide missions' - missions from which their return is very unlikely or impossible. Assuming the action is part of a 'holy war' (if you like), are these soldiers ( who know they will die as part of their mission) suicides - or are they martyrs? What say you?
Welcome back Jah, I've missed
Welcome back Jah, I've missed your humourous takes on things!
Jah said:
"Non-Christians are cursed and will go to hell! Because Jesus ... said 'Then he will say to those on his left, ‘"epart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” ' (Matthew 25:41)"
The full story is Mat.25:31-46. It makes no mention whatsoever of un-believers, non-Christians, etc.
the reference is to "the people of all the nations" (GNB, NRSV), the "cursed" in this passage are those who failed to help others (feeding, giving drink, clothing etc).
“They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:42)This parable is Mat.13:36-43. Wherein those "thrown into the funace" are those who lead others into sin and whose who do evil.
Jah said: "Jesus said, unbelievers (infidels) cannot be taken as friend:"
“Do not be yoked together with unbelievers (infidels). For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?” (2 Corinthians 6:14-15)
Jah claims this means Christians can't be friends with unbelievers (as a parallel to the Koran's teaching on the matter).
However, the key word here is "fellowhip". This means we can't worship their gods.
The thrust of this (somewhat muddy and hyperbolic, I will admit) passage is to avoid resigning Christian principles through pagan influence.
“If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.” (2 John 1:10-11)
The context of this verse (given in verse 7) is that of "deceivers" who are defined as those who "...do not stay with the teaching of Christ, but go beyond it..." (v.9).
In other words, it is a warning against false prophets - not an injunction against having non-Christian friends!
In addition, in this last quote Jah makes yet another elementary mistake: he puts the words of St.Paul into Jesus' mouth.
Usual poor scholarship I'm sorry to say.
Sorry: spotted an errata in
Sorry: spotted an errata in my last post (10:09).
I wrote: "in this last quote..."
I meant "In these last two quotes..."
Apologies
It is a complete waste of
It is a complete waste of time to examine the Quran in order to extract some sense from it, after all it's essentially the self-serving ravings of a 7th century psychopath and his supporters. Moslems have a long history of suicide attacks starting with the Nizaris,the original "Assassins"who terrorised the Crusaders and their fellow Moslems, they were indifferent to their own personal survival and were very effective because of their ability to get close to their intended victims, the difference today is technology, not ideology.
to Mr Kabirlaw You said: "To
to Mr Kabirlaw
You said: "To answer it simply. The answer is NO. Because (1) there was no such thing as a bomb or suicide bomber in the Prophet’s time. So he could hardly have endorsed something that quite frankly did not exist at that time."
Perhaps you know how to differentiate between deliberate suicide and suicide bombing? Of course suicide is discouraged in Islam as it is a self inflicted damage to the performer. However, suicide attempt in a war or raid or loot or even to protect the "Prophet" for the benefit of Islam is encouragable and rewarded.
Please analyze this hadith:
"It has been reported on the authority of Anas b. Malik that (when the enemy got the upper hand) on the day of the Battle of Uhud, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) was left with only seven men from the Ansar and two men from the Quraish. When the enemy advanced towards him and overwhelmed him, he said: Whoso turns them away from us will attain Paradise or will be my Companion in Paradise. A man from the Ansar came forward and fought (the enemy) until he was killed. The enemy advanced and overwhelmed him again and he repeated the words: Whoso turns them away, from us will attain Paradise or will be my Companion in Paradise. A man from the Ansar came forward and fought until he was killed. This state continued until the seven Ansar were killed (one after the other). Muslim 19:4413) "
First and foremost, we are able to detect cowardice from the "Prophet"'s statement when his life was in great danger, nearing jeorpardy. Second, by hoodwinking his followers with false promise of paradise, he caused 7 Ansar to die in defence of him. Where were those angels that promised to wipe out the Unbelievers as in the case of Badr battle?
It's OK in case of battle to defend your commander's life, but if the commander make similar remark as the "Prophet", would you throw your life away at such stupidity? It's pure nonsense.
Look at this report:
"[Auf bin Harith asked] “O Allah’s apostle, what makes Allah laugh with joy at his servant?” He answered, “When he plunges into the mist of the enemy without mail.” (Ibn Ishaq 445)
As it turns out, Auf took his advice and did exactly that:
Auf drew off the mail-coat that was on him and threw it away: then he seized his sword and fought the enemy till he was slain. (Ibn Ishaq 445)"
Plunges into the midst of enemy without mail will invite certain death, as if a soldier goes to battle without arming himself. Then, God will laugh and happy? Is this not an indirect instruction of suicide?
I let you judge Mr Kabirlaw.
Humanity is but one family. :)
To Mr Paarsurrey PLease
To Mr Paarsurrey
PLease answer the above post.
As to your question to Mr Ali Sina, it's irrelevant.
You are an Ahmadi who respected Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani as a saint or messiah or even prophet, depending on which denomination of Ahmadi you belong, Lahori Ahmadi or Qadiyani Ahmadi?
I guess Mr Kabirlaw and Mr JAH here will undeniably brand you as infidel without much reservation. Please reconcile your differences first ok. Most Muslims like Mr Kabirlaw and Mr JAH believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani was a British agent.
By the way, here's some more evidence of the barbaric nature of Islam:
"It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: “They are from them.” (Sahih Muslim 4322, see also Bukhari 52:256)"
Islam is peaceful?
"The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to he a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside. (Sahih Muslim 4457)"
Honour killing perfectly justified. A child can be murdered if the parents can detect and distinguish sign of infidelity in them??
Here's more:
“I said (would you attack) my prisoners? But... The people formed a ring around us as I was protecting him. Then a man drew his sword and cut off his son’s foot so that he fell down and Umayya [the boy’s father] let out a cry such as I have never heard… They hewed them to pieces with their swords until they were dead.” (Ibn Ishaq 449)"
Is this a civilized religion??
Answer me Mr Kabirlaw, Mr JAH and Mr Paarsurrey. Judge for yourself.
Humanity is but one family. :)
kenmirzz, that hadith you
kenmirzz, that hadith you quoted - it also shows us that mohammed committed shirk (just one of so many times). He basically said that he could declare who would go to heaven.
Here is a part of the quote that shows mohammed committed shirk: '...Who so turns them away, from us will attain Paradise or will be my Companion in Paradise. A man from the Ansar came forward and fought until he was killed. This state continued until the seven Ansar were killed (one after the other). Muslim 19:4413) ”'
That is another thing that the muslims get upset about (when I have blogged about it on different websites). And they basically start doing the same thing - changing the subject (I call it deflection) onto something else - Paul and the 'paraclete' are their favorite subjects to change to.
Shirk is one of the major sins in islam according to mohammed. But it seems what was good for others was ok for him to commit. It was that way with his lusts too.
This is a great
This is a great article!
Perhaps I missed something (and I apologized if I did), but the man quoted in the article accidentally killed himself....but these suicide bombers are purposely killing themselves and so many innocent victims.....so, even though they are killing themselves and others for the sake of Islam...it is still purposely done....oops...never mind...I answered my own question in the thought process...sorry....
Anyway, Mohammedans should be avoided at all costs....they do not know how to live among themselves or others in peace! They are always griping and complaining about this matter or that and if their needs are not met or they do not get their way, they resort to terror and violence....um yeah...religion of peace.....more like religion from hell!
Dada, where are you? My posts aren't very good...help me out here!
to Mr R_not Be prepared to
to Mr R_not
Be prepared to hear apologetic excuses such as:" The sources you quoted are bizarre, from unauthorized Islamic legends, not worthy to be accepted in genuineness, hence, should be discarded." This is the ultimate attempt to filter Islam through whitewashing of the dirts stained in it.
I am not surprised though. As for Muhammad committed shirk, most of the Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims ( Barelwi, Hanafi, etc) except Salafi and Wahhabi believed that Muhammad is the intermediary between them and God. They invoke Muhammad,thinkingn that he is present and alive even today in Barelwi mosques. They quoted a hadith from Tabarani which stated that the "Prophet" taught a blind man to pray to God through him and then the blind man get healed.
But of course the Muslims that come to FFI do not subscribe to this idea as most of them are Quran- only or Salafi.
Humanity is but one family. :)
Another common fallacy that
Another common fallacy that Muslims like to promote nowadays is that suicide-bombings were invented by the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka (L.T.T.E.) and not by Muslims. They point out for example that the then prime minister of India, Rajiv Gandhi, was killed by a Tamil Tiger female suicide-bomber.
The reality is that suicide-bombing was invented by the Khomeini regime in Iran during the Iran-Iraq War that raged between them from 1980 to 1988. During battles young Iranians were encouraged by the moolas to strap bombs to their bodies and hurl themselves at the tanks of their fellow Muslim Iraqis. This successful strategy was then introduced by the Iranians to their Lebanese terrorist protégés the Hezbollah in April 1983 and used there with deadly effect against their fellow Lebanese, the United Nations peacekeeping forces and the Israelis.
The Tamil Tigers were trained in suicide-bombings in Lebanon by Hezbollah in December the same year and this deadly tactic was then used in Sri Lanka by them in the following years until they were finally crushed this year by the Sri Lankan army.
In summary, although the Quran does not specifically contain any actual verses advocating suicide by Muslims, it does however glorify suicide-missions against their perceived enemies. In Islam every means possible, no matter how despicable, are permissible to serve the Cause of Allah (Jihad).
Think about this following Quranic verse and then try telling me that Islam does not promote a suicidal frame of mind in its blind and fanatical followers:-
"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain..." -- Qur'an 9:111
agree with Rocky ***It is a
agree with Rocky
***It is a complete waste of time to examine the Quran in order to extract some sense from it, after all it’s essentially the self-serving ravings of a 7th century psychopath ***
thats why i rather asking about the reality, why most suicide bomber were muslim?, why don't you condemned them?, (just in case londonspirit listen) why muslim want to be told by jew to kill themselves
and same with kenmirzz, about reconcile the different first, whos the real sucked in muslim in here who truly follow the lie of criminal and psychopath of 7th century
YUSUFALI, PICKTHAL, SHAKIR, why would you need these stupid translators, christian, hindu, buddhist scriptures dont need translator.
look at this muslim hypocrite, they say the words in quran need to be preserved, that's why it should remain in arabic, so they don't loose the meaning, or what ever they try to tell you, look at the differentiate between the three of the whole quran, allah aka satan should be upset coz the words been change, apparently allah brothel only speak in arabic, man roh buka (something like that), i wonder if these stupid non arabic speaking get slap by allah, cause, they staring at allah don't know what he says
well Mr.Ali once again you
well Mr.Ali once again you opened a great topic well you must be aware from the state i belong is not thinking to crack down all those muslim who are spreading the truth from you'r site and relative to it and one has been happen that a foreign muslim doctor has been arrested on the blasphemy
here is the link
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=188713
R-not, You posted 2 good
R-not,
You posted 2 good entries (july 26, 4.28 am + 6.16 pm) about the reactions of Muslims to us and to their co-religionists or lack thereof. It echoed the fine speeches of the beautiful Brigitte Gabriel, with; " Actions speak louder than words".
You totally speak my mind. And now here in FFI, but also with ActForAmerica, Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, Islam Watch, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan, Nasleema Tasrin etc, there are those ex-Muslims, and those Islam-critics and Islam-opponents. And in Holland we now have the freedom-party of Geert Wilders, who are getting more popular and stronger every day.
And now, in the absence of real self-criticism of Muslims against co-religionists, many of us followers of other beliefs/ faits/ life-views, now join these ex-Muslims, Muslim-opponents, because they defend our freedoms, they choose for equal rights, equal opportunities for everyone, and unlike many spoiled Westerners, they are so committed to it, to the extent of them risking their lives. (Maybe they are in favor of suicide, without murder, for a good cause?).
And then many Muslims wonder why so many people vote for the Freedom Party, are so Critical and against Islam and they protest this, call it Discrimination, Hate-speech, Islamophobia. But it is they themselves who do not dare or do not know how to build trust with their fellow-humans. Namely by openly standing up to their violent, oppressing co-religionists, by siding with democratic governments and organisations against those who use violence against or oppress followers of other faiths. And we now are very well informed what they do.
Maybe the Quran-only and/ or Ahmadi Muslims will be the first to join the protests against the violent and oppressive Muslims? Because we see Moron and PaarSurrey sometimes clearly distinquish themselves from mainstream Muslims.
Demsci, that is the best news
Demsci, that is the best news I have heard for quite some time that the Dutch are waking up and ACTING!! It makes me proud to have Dutch ancestory (my grandfather was a Dutchman from Holland!!!!). And he was an activist that I suppose I 'get it from'. He tried to warn people about communism in a day when that was just not popular. I have had a new admiration for him.
Anyway, I divert, back to business - Brigette (a Lebonese Maronette Christian) is one of my heros, as is Ali Sina and a host of other mostly former Muslims. I didn't realize at first how brave they are for leaving islam. A bravery that I cannot even imagine now that I am more aware of what happens to muslims that leave. We have all heard the vileness of some muslims who post against Mr. Sina on these threads. It is just appalling, but good for us to realize and read - to see the 'viper' appear from the adherents of islam.
kenmirzz wrote: 'Be prepared to hear apologetic excuses such as:” The sources you quoted are bizarre, from unauthorized Islamic legends, not worthy to be accepted in genuineness, hence, should be discarded.” This is the ultimate attempt to filter Islam through whitewashing of the dirts stained in it....'
Thanks for that post, it was very informative. Yeah, I have heard (what I consider) them all. In fact, when I am getting to a point I can spot them a mile away. In the USMC, the one thing that I learned was that excuses are not worth a nickel, and they reflect a sorry state of mind of the persons who use them.
IbnSahr, you wrote:
IbnSahr, you wrote: "christian, hindu, buddhist scriptures dont need translator."
Well, I beg to differ - strongly.
My view on this is that if a scripture is untranslatable, by which I mean that you can't translate the meaning from one language to another (which Muslims often claim btw), then that is an admission that the scriptures are only for the people who are native speakers of that language.
Second: if you do not translate a scripture into the language of the people using it, you give vastly too much power to the Clerics who do understand it and open up the likelihood that the scripture will be abused.
Now, I realise that what I say requires that translators are both honest and honorable people, but given that in the end non-believering scholars (often native language speakers) will translate the books too, then any deceit will be found out in due time.
Now the original Bible languages are a mixture of Hebrew, Aramaic and (koine) Greek.
I speak none of those languages.
Even if I set out to learn them, I'd NEVER speak them as a native speaker.
So, I for one, am grateful that (panels of) linguistics experts have translated teh Bible so I can read and understand it in my native tongue - English.