Concerning a New Definition of Non-Muslims
Submitted by Jacob Thomas on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 06:54
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Back in September 2005, I came across an article in the daily Arabic online Al-Sharq-al-Awsat with this headline: "On Defining 'al-Akhar' (the Other): A Discussion between Two Generations at a Preparatory Session of the National Dialogue Initiative." Here are excerpts from the article. "On Tuesday, 20 September, 2005, the preparatory meetings of the National Dialogue Initiative that took place at the Meridian Hotel in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, ended. A large generational gap surfaced at the close of the discussions. It became clear, during the meetings which had lasted for three days that the sixty-three adult participants were looking for an exact and proper definition of "Al-Akhar." At the same time, seventeen young men and women who participated in a training program, in conjunction with this meeting at Jeddah, had already completed their deliberations, having concluded that their relations with the "Akhar" must have one purpose only, that of calling him or her, to convert to Islam. "The specific goal that had been set for these young men and women was to teach them the art of dialogue, and the proper means of communication. They were expected to learn the relation between dialogue and convincing the 'Other' of one's point of view, without alienating him. However, as far as these young people were concerned, only the non-Muslim should be classified as "Al-Akhar," regardless of where he or she had come from." The fact that Saudis were discussing a new definition of the Other, indicates that a totally new situation in the history of Islam had surfaced. It was precipitated by the discovery of oil in Saudi Arabia. This brought thousands of non-Muslims from Europe, America, the Middle East, and Southeast Asia, to work on Saudi soil. Their presence was essential for the economic wellbeing of the Kingdom. Added to that, millions of Muslims from North Africa, the Middle East, and Southeast Asia rushed to work in Western Europe soon after the end of WWII. This new phenomenon has initiated serious discussions among Saudi intellectuals, as they begin to realize the full implication of emerging inter-dependent world. The September 24, 2005 article went on to explain: "The differences between the two groups did not consist only in their ages, or in the degree of their education. The real differences consisted in their definitions of the identity of the 'Other.' Here it must be mentioned that the theme of the dialogue initiative was 'We and the 'Other': Toward a National Vision for Dealing with Western Cultures.' "The average age of the academicians, intellectuals, and businessmen and businesswomen who met at the main hall of the Meridian, ranged between the mid-thirties to the mid-forties. As far as they were concerned, the term 'Other' should be understood etymologically. In that sense, it should not carry any derogatory baggage, the non-Muslim should be known by his nationality, and not his religious affiliation. "In contrast, the ages of the students who participated in the learning sessions and who had come from Saudi secondary schools, ranged between sixteen and eighteen. They defined the Other as a Kafir or Infidel. For them, the term was not understood etymologically, but culturally and religiously. So, as far as they were concerned, the goal for learning the art of dialogue was restricted to da'wa (calling) i.e. inviting the 'Other" to embrace Islam, the true Pathway of Allah." Fast forward to 2009 In January of this year, the Kuwaiti website kwtanweer visited the subject of the need for a new definition of non-Muslims in an article with the title, "The 'Other' According to the Islamic View" (Al-Akhar fi'l Tsawwor al-Islami) Here are excerpts from this timely article. "According to the Islamic view, the 'Other' is any non-Muslim. He may be a follower of Judaism or Christianity, a Zoroastrian, or an atheist. Sunnis would add to this list all those who don't follow their brand of Islam such as Shi'ites, Ismailis, Ahmadiyya, and Abadiyya. The vast majority of Shi'ites have the same attitude as the Sunnis vis-à-vis those Muslims who do not follow their own understanding of Islam, not recognizing, for example, Non-Twelvers Shi'ites. 1 "The Muslim view of the 'Other' is not a theoretical subject; it translates itself into the practical areas of life on earth, as well as the afterlife. So we find real discriminatory practices in the areas of human rights, duties, and the treatment of those classified as 'Others.' For example, in the Islamic Republic of Iran, only a Shi'ite may become President; which implies the non-Shi'ite is not a Muslim, and is therefore not eligible to occupy the office of president! And even though the vast majority of Sunni countries with written constitutions have no specific article that bars a Shi'ite from assuming the office of president, nevertheless the very idea of such a thing happening is unthinkable. "The discriminatory practices against non-Muslims are actually very grave. Usually, all non-Muslims are regarded as Kuffar. They may be either followers of revealed religions such as Christianity and Judaism, (with Zoroastrianism added by some Fuqaha 2), or simply heathens. The difference between them is that the former are allowed to pay the Jizya tax, thus gaining the freedom to remain in their own religion, while the heathens have only one choice: either convert to Islam, or have your neck cut off! One must add here, for the sake of objectivity, that such an awful rule was seldom put into practice, even though the sacred text was very clear about that punishment! There were quite a few differences within the Four Sunni Schools for the interpretation of the Shari'ah Law whether followers of non-revealed religions (heathens,) may pay the Jizya tax, and thus avoid Islamizing. "All non-Muslims living within Islamic societies are thoroughly marginalized. After all, the sacred text requires the killing of the Mushrikeen 3, wherever they may be found. See, Qur'an, Surat al-Tawbah #9 (Repentance) ayat 5 and 29. When the sacred months are over, slay the pagans wherever you find them. Capture, besiege, and ambush them. If they repent, perform prayers and pay the religious tax, set them free. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful (9:5) Fight against those People of the Book who have no faith in God or the Day of Judgment, who do not consider unlawful what God and His Messenger have made unlawful, and who do not believe in the true religion, until they humbly pay tax with their own hands. (9:29) "It is clear that the verses do require fighting those who do not believe in Allah, or the Last Day, and forbid what Allah and His Prophet have forbidden, and do not practice the true religion, even though they are the People of the Book (Jews and Christians), and they must pay the Jizya with an attitude of abject humility! "Regardless of what the constitutions of Arab and Islamic countries may clearly state regarding nondiscrimination and equality between all their citizens, it is a well-known fact that non-Muslims are regarded with suspicion, and treated as second-class or third-class citizens. The testimony of a non-Muslim against a Muslim is not admissible in a court of law. When a Kafir kills a Muslim, he will surely be punished with the death penalty; whereas if a Muslim murders a Kafir, the Muslim is not liable to the death penalty, according to the Hadith of Bukhari. It is well-known that a non-Muslim may not marry a Muslim woman. Some authoritative texts command that Muslims may not greet Jews or Christians. And should a non-Muslim greet a Muslim, the latter may 'take back' (reject) that greeting. And when a Muslim meets a Jew or a Christian on the road, he should make it hard for them to proceed easily on their way. "When it comes to the Jizya tax that Muslims are to impose on non-Muslims, it constitutes a very complicated matter in the relations between the two groups. At present, it is not applied in any Muslim society, even though the consensus of the Fuqaha is that it must be paid to spare the lives of the Kuffar, or merely to allow them to live within Daru'l Islam. Some even claim that the Jizya is a punishment laid on the Kuffar for their refusal to accept Islam. As Ibn al-Qayyim put it: 'The Jizya is placed on the heads of the Kuffar to humiliate and debase them, making them feel inferior.' 4. "While Islam was tolerant with the People of the Book in allowing them to practice their faith, nevertheless it placed upon them some severe restrictions such as forbidding showing the Cross over their churches, or praying and reading their Scriptures in a loud voice. "Someone may say that most of these restrictions are no longer being applied. This is true. However, the very fact that they exist (in the sacred texts of Islam) constitute a sword placed over the necks of non-Muslims that may go into action any time. This is why it is necessary to strengthen those constitutions and man-made laws (i.e. not based on Shari'a) for the protection of individual freedoms and personal rights against the encroachments of the religious leaders, by forbidding them to interfere in the peoples' daily lives, in a tyrannical manner." Thus far the quotations from the article in the kwtanweer website The strength of his words is verified in the history of Islam itself and in its sacred texts. For example, at the very time when Islam was spreading its hegemony, at first in the Arabian Peninsula, and later on in the world at large, the two verses he quoted from the "Repentance" Surah explicitly mandated the killing of non-Muslims. Verse 5 is very clear in the Arabic original, "Faqtulu al-Mushrikeen haythu wajadtumuhom" translated as "kill the infidels wherever you find them." Verse 29 of that same chapter, mandates fighting against those who give no credence to the basic teachings of the Qur'an, and refers specifically to "allathena ootu'l Kitab" i.e. those who have been given the Book which they consider to be Allah's previous revelations, the Torah, the Zaboor or Psalms, and the Injeel) While it is true that these Medinan texts are not being put into practice in many parts of the Islamic world where non-Muslim minorities live, yet they have not been abrogated, and may be used any time a radical Islamic group takes it upon itself to initiate a plan of persecution and murder of non-Muslims. The writer ended his article by pleading for the strengthening of "those constitutions and man-made laws (i.e. not based on Shari'a) for the protection of individual freedoms and personal rights against the encroachments of religious leaders, by forbidding them to interfere in the peoples' daily lives, in a tyrannical manner." However, one has to ask: where in the Arab world can be found those who are willing to declare that man-made constitutions and laws should be considered as more authoritative or normative than the so-called "divinely-inspired" rules and regulations of the Qur'an? Thus, while I appreciate the author for bringing this subject to the attention of the readership of kwtanweer, I have to say that his closing sentiments are nothing more than wishful thinking! So I must conclude that what I had read back in 2005, and at the beginning of 2009 about the quest for a new definition of non-Muslims, remains a merely academic subject. Nothing has changed in the Islamic worldview. One either is a Muslim or a Kafir, and the status of the latter does not improve be calling him, al-Akhar! Notes 1. Several sects and sub-sects arose in Islam after the assassination of Ali. Some Shi'ites believe that it was the Twelfth Imam (descendant of Ali) who went into occultation, and would return to earth to bring justice; others believe that it was the Seventh Imam. Ahmadiyya Muslims follow an Indian Muslim who claimed that he was a Prophet. Ismailis are radical Shi'ites, and so are the Nusayris, and the Druze. Abadiyya are the spiritual descendents of the Khawarej who assassinated Ali in 661 A.D. 2. Fuqaha, plural of Faqih, a legal authority in Islam, similar to a theologian. 3. Mushrikeen, all non-Muslims who do not adhere to the strict monotheism of Islam. 4. Ibn al-Qayyim (1292-1350) was a Syrian Sunni jurist and a commentator on the Qur'an. The URL of the Arabic text is: http://www.kwtanweer.com/articles/readarticle.php?articleID=2119
This is not new, Muslims in
This is not new, Muslims in India call the Kafirs as "Ghair". It would roughly translate to an outsider or an unknown. It does not matter what terminology they use to describe the Non-Muslims. At the end of the day, we are still fait game for the Muslims, whether they call us as Kafir or al-Akhar.
Islamic shit is like the
Islamic shit is like the sword of Democles hanging over the kafirs and can fall on the kafirs any time.The kafirs are completely unaware of this surah of the qrand.The fortunate thing is moscums themselves are also ignorant!
Any way what's or who's to prevent from expressing the shahada la illaha at the drop of a hat?
Moscus are really stupid.The moscums in not arabic land are even stupidier.they have no say in islam at all except making their 6 year old daughters to bed the 90 year old sodis for a few riyals.
This has been he problem with all abrahamic religions.they teach the followers to look down upon others of a different faith.Moslems call them kafirs, the christians call them heathens. The result is the same.There is an inferior class of people to be subdued.This is the law of the arsehole allah and rapist mohammad as much as the stupid lord and the dead jew on a stick.
Indian moscums for all I care can give away their infant daughters to the syphilitic old men for thighing, but that can/ does not give these gutter moscums, the right to look down upon kafirs.Infact kafirs and heathens have achieved under the circumstances far more than the moscums.
Until and unless these rabid religions of middle east reform and start looking at all the religions as a way to" discover personally " truth of God,' Ekam sat" truth is one, but people and sages approach the truth differently, we will continue to have these problems.Its's important for people of all religions to realise that religions are all man made and one does not have any divine right to annhilate the other of a different religion. Why not the moscums in india and the stupid pope declare that people of all religions can go to heaven by doing what's just,ethical and humane and right? To do that one has to have brain and that's exactly what they lack.
Proud Kafir, I really dont
Proud Kafir, I really dont think there is anything in the Bible that is akin to Jihad or holy war, which asks Christians to kill the heathens and subdue them into dhimmitute. Hence the comparison between Islam and Christianity on this one would be unfair. Islam is in a league of its own, no other religion: Reveiled or otherwise, can match up to the barabrities and predudices that are inherent in the Islamic thought.
Proudkafir, my personal
Proudkafir, my personal understanding of the bible is that Jesus Christ universally paid the penalty of all people, all races. For that case, even those people who are not christians but instinctively do stand for what christ preaches, whether they've read the bible or not they are graced heaven by God. Which also means that certainly there will be some cultural muslims, hindus, atheists, etc who will get there in heavens. The point is no one deserve to go in heaven because of his religion, so no one should look down at someone beliefs. However, although I do not know the nature of Hell, I guess hell will be full of people who clearly knows at what Jesus Christ teaches, but discard his teachings as irrational, or say we do not essentially need Jesus or brand Jesus as a myth. These are no different from mohammad who sought to replace Jesus message and consequently downplayed him among his followers.
Dear Ibrahim True the
Dear Ibrahim
True the christians do not have a jihad, but they had plenty of crusades! Please tell me what was the end point of these crusades?
See , now there may not be a central authority to declare a crusade and people may not be willing to go on crusades ( they can and will rather send a missile on crusade), but it is unfair to not even recognise the existence of jihadic crusade .
" Many Christians were willing to take on violent challenges and eager to fight for God’s cause. Interpreting the will of God correctly was vital. Interpreting fighting on God’s side as holy and praiseworthy varied from carefully thought-out theories like Saint Augustine’s [left] concept of a "just war," ... to spontaneous rioting incited by fear of plague or disaster, to campaigns preached by the church to get rid of its non-Christian enemies. The motives and persuasive skills of these interpreters were sometimes employed effectively toward ends that were far from holy or praiseworthy.
Through the ages, Christians have struggled between the extremes of pacifism and war, with enormous consequences to themselves and to others. All Christian interpreters used biblical foundations to justify their points of view. Texts exist to support all of them"
Please note that there were plenty of biblical foundations for the heinous crime against humanity.People were massacred in the name of christ and bible.Its another matter that christians may not be killing now a days in the name of christ/ bible ( though mant moslems will disagree) but that biblical prodding is always there
Proudkafir, again I want to
Proudkafir, again I want to let you know that what makes Islam evil is far from being inspired by some bible verses that are violent. There is some extra evil forces driving Islam. Just imagine how can a decent, educated, rational european convert from christianity to Islam if not some extra forces behind these moves.
Compare these verses from the quran and the bible that can be described violent:
When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you. Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes” (Deuteronomy 20:10-17)
Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him. (Bukhari 84:57)
I admit both verses are violent, however just tell me honestly, which is applicable today according to your own interpretation. Or how could have the crusaders used the above bible verse if not just their warped and distorted understanding to justify their actions?
Sick. This whole civilization
Sick. This whole civilization is sick. These 'intellectuals" in Saudi gather to discuss such topics like 'Al-Akhar' , 'Kuffar' etc.
Are they Mad?
Don't they teach science and maths in Saudi Arabia? It seems only the shit Koran is being taught in schools and universities.
This civilization is dying but they will kill many people before getting consumed themselves.
Proudkafir, first of all I
Proudkafir, first of all I wish to confess that I am a Christian, a Catholic. I try to practice the teachings of that "dead Jew on a stick." I think you should be ashamed of yourself for ridiculing my Hero Jesus Christ who taught to "Love your neigbor," Love your enemies," and even "Do good to those who persecute you." It's true that I sometimes fall short. Those all tall orders, but possible because I have practiced these orders even when I was under fire. Instead of ridiculing my Hero, why don't you try to practice these commands. It will make you a good and complete human if you can reach this goal. Despite the fact that you are persecuting me, I wish you well, and I hope the Creator of all things may bless you.
I know that Muslims want me
I know that Muslims want me to become an Islamist. But pray tell, wish of the 72 contradictory Muslim sects do they want me to embrace? Should I embrace the Sunni Muslims who are murdering Shiite Muslims because the Shiites are infidels, or do they want me to embrace the Shiite Muslims who are murdering Sunni Muslims because the Sunnis are infidels? Or perhaps they want me to embrace the Talibans who are murdering my beautiful little girls simpley because these children are seeking an education. Which of the 72 contradictory belligerent Muslim sects is infallible? What a big problem I would have trying to choose a Muslim sect that would suit me. Naw, I'll remain a Christian and try to live Jesus' non-violent teachings. Frankly I wish that everyone would start thinking like a good Christian, like my Hero Jesus Christ.
Proudchristian I don't think
Proudchristian I don't think your point get into the head of this street kid called proudkafir. Firstly he(proudkafir) don't understand why did the crusade started in the first place.
Well said Philip, Christians
Well said Philip,
Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. We all have our shortfalls brother. Peace
Dear Proud Kafir You have to
Dear Proud Kafir
You have to understand the reason why the crusades happened in the first place. Furthermore the crusades were not the outcome of Christian doctrines. If the Muslims had not gone all the way to Spain and then tried to attack France. The crusades, the inquisition, none of it would have happened.In my country India, there were great warriors who screwed up the Foreign Islamic armies. However they did not kill all the Muslims. They just fought with the armies. Had they behaved like the crusaders, probably my ancestors would not have to convert to Islam. It was because of these crusaders that Europe was safe for all these years. Today history is repeating itself. So if you see bloodbath on the streets of Europe,who would you blame? Look at Indian today, people are not tolerant as they used to be even ten years ago. If today people loose control and say enough is enough and we don't want to die anymore and there is a backlash, which side would you be on? Its easy to blame someone. However its better that we understand the context before we comment on it.
You have to understand the
Do yo think crusades and inquisitions happened ONLY against Muslims ? Please educate yourselves regarding history.
The first crusade started against pagans of Roman empire and Greek Hellenistic followers, when their Roman King Flavius Theodosius converted to Christianity and made it their state religion. Check the following websites...
Early Christian crusades against Pagans.
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stopthereligiousright.org/demolish.htm
THE CHRISTIAN DESTRUCTION OF PAGAN TEMPLES IN THE EMPIRE
From Vlasis Rassias' book "DEMOLISH THEM..", published in Greek, Athens 1994, Diipetes Editions, ISBN 960-85311-3-6)
worldfuturefund.com/wffmaster/Reading/Censorship/Christian%20Intolerance.htm
LAW BANNING ALL RELIGIONS OTHER THAN CHRISTIANITY
"It is Our will that all the peoples who are ruled by the administration of Our Clemency shall practice that religion which the divine Peter the Apostle transmitted to the Romans. According to the apostolic teaching and the doctrine of the Gospel, let us believe in the one deity of the father, Son and Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. ... The rest, whom We adjudge demented and insane, shall sustain the infamy of heretical dogmas, their meeting places shall not receive the name of churches, and they shall be smitten first by divine vengeance and secondly by the retribution of Our own initiative." -- Codex Theodosianus, XVI.1.2.
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EDICTS AGAINST NON-CHRISTIAN WORSHIP
"No one shall consult a soothsayer, astrologer or diviner. The perverse pronouncements of augurs and seers must fall silent. ... The universal curiosity about divination must be silent forever. Whosoever refuses obedience to this command shall suffer the penalty of death and be laid low by the avenging sword." -- Codex Theodosianus, IX.16.4
Source: Brian Croke & Jill Harries (eds.), Religious Conflict in Fourth-Century Rome: A Documentary Study (Sydney: Macarthur Press, 1982).
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Check out there how Jews and other suffered due to Crusades. If crusades were only against Muslims, why they attacked so many other communities ?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_the_Crusades
In the First Crusade flourishing communities on the Rhine and the Danube were utterly destroyed by some crusaders (see German Crusade, 1096). In the Second Crusade (1147) the Jews in France suffered especially. Philip Augustus treated them with exceptional severity during the Third Crusade (1188). The Jews were also subjected to attacks by the Shepherds' Crusades of 1251 and 1320.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade
The Crusades were a series of religion-driven military campaigns waged by much of Christian Europe against external and internal opponents. Crusades were fought mainly against Muslims, though campaigns were also directed against pagan Slavs, Jews, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, Waldensians, Old Prussians, and political enemies of the popes. Crusaders took vows and were granted an indulgence for past sins.
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Talking about inquisition, do you even know that Hindus in Goa, India were subjected to inhumane inquisitions of Church with help from Portuguese Kings. Infact the so called saint Francis Xavier, a jesuit priest of Catholic church, ordered inquisition in his letters to Rome.
Do you think they burnt witches and heretics in stake because they were Muslims ? How ignorant one must be to make a statement that inquisition is due to Muslims ?...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
Purpose
A 1578 handbook for inquisitors spelled out the purpose of inquisitorial penalties: ... quoniam punitio non refertur primo & per se in correctionem & bonum eius qui punitur, sed in bonum publicum ut alij terreantur, & a malis committendis avocentur. [Translation from the Latin: "... for punishment does not take place primarily and per se for the correction and good of the person punished, but for the public good in order that others may become terrified and weaned away from the evils they would commit."
What "evils" this Catholic church is talking about ? It could range from following any non-Catholic religion to anything that seems to be against their interests...No wonder Hindus in Goa were tortured....
Now Christians will claim all
Now Christians will claim all these were against teachings of Jesus.... but never explain how thousands of people in ancient and medieval world, including Popes and Catholic priests and so many "theologians/philosophers" have made statements in favor of Crusades and Inquisitions.
They often quote Jesus' teachings which is meant for personal relationship between two people or relationship with the society, as though this teaching is applicable to state laws imposed on its citizens. Jesus never opposed state laws implemented according to old testament rules against idolatry or following other God(s). This is where the doctrinal justification comes to crusades and inquisitions against non-believers and heretics and pagans and idolaters, which Christians have zealously implemented all through their history. I will list below Jesus' own words justifying OT laws to killing people for silly reasons.
Matthew 5:17-19 (New International Version)
17: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Jesus approves of iold testament laws here.)
18: I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Jesus says here OT laws are perpetual)
19: Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Here Jesus shows the danger of NOT following OT laws and thus tells Christians to apply OT laws through their state.)
Luke 16:17 (New International Version)
It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. (Jesus again protests aganst any attempt to invalidate Mosaic laws.)
Mark 7:9-13
Here Jesus confirms that killing disobedient children as per OT laws is God's law.
9: And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions!
10: For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,'[d] and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[e]
11: But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God),
12: then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother.
13: Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
2 Timothy 3:15-17
When Paul wrote to Timothy, he mentions OT as the source of doctrine, spiritual and moral laws for Christians. Without OT, Christians are NOT complete according to Paul.
15: and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/2timothy/wesley/2timothy3.htm
Commentary on Verse 15. From an infant thou hast known the holy scriptures - Of the Old Testament. These only were extant when Timothy was an infant. Which are able to make thee wise unto salvation, through faith in the Messiah that was to come. How much more are the Old and New Testament together able, in God's hand, to make us more abundantly wise unto salvation! Even such a measure of present salvation as was not known before Jesus was glorified.
16: All Scripture (includes old testament) is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17: that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
It is foolishness to say only new testament is Christian or that new tetsament overrides all of the old testament laws or teachings.
This should be clear now why Christians ask for death penalty to homos, witchcraft, idolatry etc. This should also make it clear as to why Churches implemented brutal inquisitions and murdered pagans. Despite all these if people like Ibn Kammuna ignorantly claim Christianity is NOT intolerant, they are only fooling themselves, unless one is a Christian in which case he is fooling others.
Now Christians will claim all
Now Christians will claim all these were against teachings of Jesus…. but never explain how thousands of people in ancient and medieval world, including Popes and Catholic priests and so many “theologians/philosophers” have made statements in favor of Crusades and Inquisitions.
They often quote Jesus’ teachings which is meant for personal relationship between two people or relationship with the society, as though this teaching is applicable to state laws imposed on its citizens. Jesus never opposed state laws implemented according to old testament rules against idolatry or following other God(s). This is where the doctrinal justification comes to crusades and inquisitions against non-believers and heretics and pagans and idolaters, which Christians have zealously implemented all through their history. I will list below Jesus’ own words justifying OT laws to killing people for silly reasons.
Matthew 5:17-19 (New International Version)
17: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Jesus approves of old testament laws here.)
18: I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Jesus says here OT laws are perpetual)
19: Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Here Jesus shows the danger of NOT following OT laws and thus tells Christians to apply OT laws through their state.)
Luke 16:17 (New International Version)
It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. (Jesus again protests aganst any attempt to invalidate Mosaic laws.)
Mark 7:9-13
Here Jesus confirms that killing disobedient children as per OT laws is God's law.
9: And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!
10: For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
11: But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God),
12: then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother.
13: Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
2 Timothy 3:15-17
When Paul wrote to Timothy, he mentions OT as the source of doctrine, spiritual and moral laws for Christians. Without OT, Christians are NOT complete according to Paul.
15: and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
ewordtoday.com/comments/2timothy/wesley/2timothy3.htm
Commentary on Verse 15. From an infant thou hast known the holy scriptures - Of the Old Testament. These only were extant when Timothy was an infant. Which are able to make thee wise unto salvation, through faith in the Messiah that was to come. How much more are the Old and New Testament together able, in God's hand, to make us more abundantly wise unto salvation! Even such a measure of present salvation as was not known before Jesus was glorified.
16: All Scripture (includes old testament) is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17: that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
It is foolishness to say only new testament is Christian or that new tetsament overrides all of the old testament laws or teachings.
This should be clear now why Christians ask for death penalty to homos, witchcraft, idolatry etc. This should also make it clear as to why Churches implemented brutal inquisitions and murdered pagans. Despite all these if people like Ibn Kammuna ignorantly claim Christianity is NOT intolerant, they are only fooling themselves, unless one is a Christian in which case he is fooling others.
George W. Bush and Tony Blair
George W. Bush and Tony Blair are at a White House dinner. One of the important guests walks over to them and asks what they are talking about.
"We are making up the plans for WW III", says Bush.
"Wow", says the guest. "And what are the plans?"
"We are gonna kill 140 million Muslims and one dentist", answers Bush.
"The guest looks to be a bit confused. One...dentist?" He says. "Why will you kill one dentist?"
"Blair pats Bush on the shoulder and says, "What did I tell you? Nobody is gonna ask about the Muslims."
Having said facts on
Having said facts on Christian intolerance and shown evidence for doctrinal support of these things in their bible, no one has to assume that I am condining Islam and Muslims. They are at the least as worse as the crusaders and in reality even more barbaric.
These damn islamaniacs are running free in UK and driving police officers off their streets. It is shameful for UK government to let these things happen. In Germany, police officers forcibly entered an apartment with Jewish flag displayed and removed it in order to appease Islamaniacs. This is going too far. Europeans need to take up arms against these murderous terrorists and force their government to act.
Enough of human rights bull shit to these terrorists. How the hell they can dare to drive police officers out of their streets in UK ?
One need not hide one evil to expose another evil.
kaffirji, I don't understand.
kaffirji,
I don't understand. Who is the dentist ?
thats a damn joke, and you
thats a damn joke, and you prove nobody cares for 140 million muslims...
Everybody, I wonder why
Everybody,
I wonder why Christians like Tuvong lie to cover up the violent teachings of the Bible.
Maybe Tuvong is ashamed of the Bible.
Maybe Tuvong feels that we couldn't understand the mercifulness and kindness of Jesus (Jesus is God) who said to rip up pregnant lady and kill children in Hosea 13:16 .
Maybe Tuvong despise the Bible
Maybe Tuvong is a despicable Muslims who disguise as Christian here to defame Jesus' wicked teachings
Maybe Tuvong is an illiterate idiot who don't read and could NEVER ever understand what logic and reasons mean
Maybe Tuvong is a pig ............................
I think the last one sounds more logical than the rest cause it explains everything about Tuvong the son of Gay God.
Conclusions : A true Christians will always proud to call God his holly homosexual father. And they are very proud for being the descendant of incest and glad to be infected with AIDS. So stay away from Christians for the sake of your own safety. I mean safe sex.
I'm amazed at how much of the
I'm amazed at how much of the discussion on religion goes back hundreds of years and dwells on such matters as the crusades, OT teachings, the Inquisition, etc. Let's get with the here and now. We're here to make the world a better place and to hell with all this ancient history. I suggest the proponents of Islam tell us how the world would be a better place if Islam prevailed and Christianity was wiped out and the proponents of Christianity tell us how much better off we would be of the entire world were Christian.
continuum, Brother you still
continuum,
Brother you still think Christians are intolerant. You are really mistaken brother. Jesus taught to love and care for those who even hate us and are our enemies. How much more tolerance do you want. I gave you a link before on the life of menno Simons. You probably did not even read about his life. Brother, please do not keep confusing Christianity with what "supposedly Christian people" do. There is a difference between the two. I do understand that where you live in India you had some bad experiences with "Christians". I really understand that, and I am sorry that you had such experiences. But please brother, do not generlize that anf say that the source itself (i.e. Jesus) is bad (i.e. intolerant). Take care brother and i hope that in the future you will get to meet Christians who uphold faithfully the name of JESUS. Peace
It's incredible. Why don't
It's incredible. Why don't all you crazies cut it out? What do you expect to gain by hashing old wars that happened hundreds and even thousands of years ago. Bear in mind that these violent people that you're talking about could very well have been your forefathers. When 9/11 occurred, I entered the fray because of what is happening now, and what might happen tomorrow. How are we going to rectify the grave crimes that are occurring at present if you continue to waste your time discussing ancient history? I feel for the poor people, especially children, who are suffering now. Come on! Let's see how we can save the people who are in grave danger now. Okay? May God bless you.
Raakshas wrote: "Sick. This
Raakshas wrote:
"Sick. This whole civilization is sick. These ‘intellectuals” in Saudi gather to discuss such topics like ‘Al-Akhar’ , ‘Kuffar’ etc.
Are they Mad?
Don’t they teach science and maths in Saudi Arabia? It seems only the shit Koran is being taught in schools and universities.
This civilization is dying but they will kill many people before getting consumed themselves."
Raakshas these people are not intellectuals by western standards, they are morons.
Philip Saenz wrote:
"It’s incredible. Why don’t all you crazies cut it out? What do you expect to gain by hashing old wars that happened hundreds and even thousands of years ago. Bear in mind that these violent people that you’re talking about could very well have been your forefathers. When 9/11 occurred, I entered the fray because of what is happening now, and what might happen tomorrow. How are we going to rectify the grave crimes that are occurring at present if you continue to waste your time discussing ancient history? I feel for the poor people, especially children, who are suffering now. Come on! Let’s see how we can save the people who are in grave danger now. Okay? May God bless you."
Simple answer: People who keep on bringing wars that happened hundreds and thousands of years ago, are stubborn old fools who will use anything to pick on Christianity.
Excellent article.
How are we going to rectify
Really.... Are you ready to deal with with Christian terrorism happening today then ?
stephen-knapp.com/christian_terrorism_in_northeast_india.htm
National Liberation Front of Tripura
The National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) is a rebel group operating in Tripura, North-East India. The NLFT were declared a terrorist organization under the Indian Prevention of Terrorism Act in 2002. The NLFT manifesto says that they want to expand what they describe as the kingdom of God and Christ in Tripura.
Nagaland Rebels
The Nagaland Rebels is a coalition of rebel groups operating in Nagaland, North-East India. The largest of these is the National Socialist Council of Nagaland-Isak-Muivah (NSCN-IM), which is fighting for the establishment of a "Nagaland for Christ".
My post was a reply to somebody who claimed that Crusades was a result of Islamic attacks, which is patently a false claim which Christians have been making in this site as well writing fake stories.
Brother you still think
Mr. Ibn Kammuna,
I am getting tired of your wily games.
Your god Jesus says
“And if any one will not receive you in your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town. Truly, I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.” (Matt. 10:14-15).
Your god wishes a fate worse than Sodom and Gomorrah for unbelievers. Is this the love and tolerance your Jesus stands for ?
As the video below shows, why Christians refuse to even communicate with Hindus and call Hindus as devil worshipers…
“But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partaker of the Lord’s table, and the table of devils.” (2 Corinthians 10:20,21)
Paul compares idolatry to fornication:
“But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat. ” (I Corinthians 5:11,13)
Paul even calls unbelievers as dirty, just like Islam.
Young’s Literal Translation (2 Corinthians)
6:14 Become not yoked with others — unbelievers, for what partaking is there to righteousness and lawlessness?
6:17 wherefore, come ye forth out of the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and an unclean thing do not touch, and I — I will receive you,
I do not have to think Christians are intolerant. I know they are... I quoted some videos and and events that happen in India and around the world to prove that. I quote some examples again.
stephen-knapp.com/thirteen_years_of_killings_in_tripura.htm
buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/pic1/list.html
youtube.com/watch?v=Jmj-_BB6zWY
youtube.com/watch?v=0dmwTuhmfEA (This part clearly shows how much xians hate Hindus, Hinduism.)
youtube.com/watch?v=-z6meEmZRog
You claimed that these are NOT Christians, but a few misled Christians.
Then I showed you all along history of Christianity full of brutal crimes committed by Christians.
Now Christians like you claim this is only history.
In order to show that these people are acting according bible, I quoted in comment 15, that application of state law against idolatry, witchcraft, etc. is legal as per OT laws which Jesus himself has approved, you never even attempted to read this comment.
I have showed what is Christianity from your bible, which you have neglected constantly.
When your bible preaches that followers of other religions are dirty, unrighteous etc. only for the reason that they follow another religion, and calling their God(s) as devils etc. no wonder Christian history is full of blood shed against non-believers, especially polytheists or pagans of Europe just like the story of Muhammad.
You are dishonest in NOT seeing the intolerance and hatred in Christianity.
Ahhh..... Now you think I am making conclusion without reason, even after showing you so much evidence to the contrary.
Continuum, sometimes I think
Continuum, sometimes I think you are a Muslim plant. Look, friend, when Christian in my country do something bad we put them in jail. There are some in jail now. But in Muslim countries, Muslim perverts may continue to rape little children. You are angry about something. Incidentally, why don't you print your real name? What are you afraid of? I publish my real name because I'm not afraid of anyone, especially your type. I'm a seasoned soldier. Only a few years ago, I and my warriors destroyed 6,000 thugs with the same intentions that Muslim thugs and Muslim perverts have. They, too, kidnapped little childrens and did what Muslim lechers do to children. They then took it one step further, they drank the children's blook. The difference is that we took care of that
problem because we are Christians. It seems you are pulling for Muslims. Come on, give us your name. Don't hide like a woman. Incidentally, Muslims are very cowardly.
Why should my name matter to
Why should my name matter to you ? For all I know you can be a Muslim posting with fake names and targeting posters here...
Why don't you answer the questions raised here ? Why on Earth are you interested in my personal details ? Are you NOT the same crazy fellow who wrote that those thugs were demon possessed and like..... Why are yo looking for my personal data, just like Muslim terrorists ?
I agree that western
I agree that western countries take of of thugs and criminals. What does this have to do with Christianity preaching intolerance and hatred for others ?
Ahh the street kid again! See
Ahh the street kid again! See when you can not refute a valid point logically, what do you do? Simple.Bring on biblical language.Just because I can not convince myself to believe the crap that the earth is flat and sun is going round the earth, how does that make me a street kid? Oh forgot typical biblical logic.When you call me names, you do not in any way demean me, but you expose the level of your thoughts and upbringing.It reflects on your culture.
OT is as valid as NT and infact NT has no meaning with out OT.
Christians just like the evil moslems have used the biblical violent vomitus to kill people all over. The happenings in NE of India is exactly inspired by the bibilcal vomitus as much as by the vile cunning missionaries. You may have a lot of respect for the dead jew on a stick , cunning missionaries and may be willing to kill in his name, but that's beside the point.Which is , belief and freedom to believe are different compared to the truth and your arrogance to consider every one who disagrees as inferior itself shows the level of intolerance.
If you do not agree with my statement" Ekam sat" truth is one but sages approach it in different ways" that does not give me the right to call you names. Or does it? That's the biblical logic
I have come across perfectly sensible and sane people who are born in to both christian and moslem families, who know the crap peddled in both bible and qrand.They have known my thoughts about B & Q and never have they called me any name.That's because they have humanistic approach and not biblical approach.
whether it happened in the past and so we must not rake up the issue is ok for a murderer to say but for the relatives of the one murdered it's important to remember the history.Those who forget the history are condemned to repeat the same.
continuum, at least you
continuum, at least you should tell me if you are a Mr. Mrs. or Ms. At present your questions are irrelevant. I'm not interested in the distant past unless it has something to do with Islam. As far as your interpretations go about the New Testament, you need to study Catholic theology to learn the meanings of scripture. I could answer what you were interested in, but I don't have time. As far as demon possession, I see, I hear and I report. If you don't want to believe, it's okay with me. But if I were you, I would try to become more humble, and remain open. I understand that many people don't believe in the supernatural, but I do because of the many experiences in the supernatural. I'm not alone. Many good, sincere, highly intelligent people have experienced the supernatural. Of course it's easy for me to believe because I too have experienced the supernatural. You may laugh all you want and even condemn me, but there is another world, and it's supernatural. If I were you I would leave my mind open. May God bless you.
continuum, at least you
That too does NOT matter...
How convenient ?
You are typing so many comments everywhere, all you need to do is type an explanation for these verses.... I see the verses are very clear and you do not have an answer....
When Ibn Kammuna, Philip, and
When Ibn Kammuna, Philip, and others can think rationally and point out the horrible verses in Quran, what is preventing them from accepting that the acts of crusaders were influenced by the teachings in the Old Testament and few verses in the New Testament? For every Islamic word condemning the Non-Muslims, there is an equivalent Christian word. If these people are true scholars they must say "DUDE THESE VERSES ARE OUTDATED AND NOT THE WORDS OF GOD".
Kaffir, heathen, pagan, infidel, nonbeliever, burning hell etc are some of the commonly used words in Islam and Christianity.
Dear Ibrahim,
Dear Ibrahim,
The crusade wars of Christians started right after the birth of political Christianity in 325 AD after the council of Naecea. The Hellenistic temples, the Roman temples, the Gentiles, the Druids, the Celtecs, and all other so called PAGAN and HEATHEN religions/cultures were systematically destroyed by the Christians, which was fully backed by successive Popes (Paapis). I admit that they did a good thing against the Jihadis when the latter invaded Europe. But don't forget Christianity destroyed many civilizations, cultures, and religions ruthlessly. Look at the verses from OT and NT quoted by Continuum. Those verses are the root causes of Christian Jihad.
If current Christians are not following what is outlined in OT and few verses in NT, it means they don't believe in them anymore. Rational thinking has prevailed over blind faith. More importantly, the separation of RELIGION from STATE in the West is the prime cause that prevents them from creating further troubles.
Everybody, I see many people
Everybody,
I see many people trying very hard to explain why Crusade or Jihad including how they started. But believers should ask themselves why would an all merciful, all loving, all powerful and all knowing God watched all these killing and yet did nothing to stop ? Even he if knew crusade and jihad will happen when he created them ? Is it love to let people die ?
If we are too obsessive or too passionate in helping Christians and Muslims to see the truth, then they will consider us intolerant and trying to force them swallow the facts. Therefore why make them smart when we could enjoy and play with their silly minds ?
Conclusions :
There is nothing more dumber than being a Christians and Muslims. It is impossible for any logical and rational person to believe in the Bible or Quran and to let others call them smart at the same time. These things won't happen parallel in human brains. The scientists who go to church or mosque after they leave the laboratory are fake scientists just like the moderate fake Muslims and love teaching fake Christians.
Remember this there is no such things as smart idiot. Because this statement is too contradictory to be true.
Honestly speaking, grown up
Honestly speaking, grown up believers are really amazing in their capability to shun what their brain is telling them, take the muslims on this site as an example, they have seen contradictory verses, inconsistent verses, incongruous verse, violent and hateful verses, historical fallacies and things in their religion that even they themselves will not do if it really come down to it, still these grown ups persist in delusion.
The default position for any human born in to this world is that of neutrality about gods, why did I say so, because a child take his parents words as the truth, his parents also took it from their parents and so it goes, no one alive today or even close to 2000yrs ago saw any of the prophet and verified satisfactorily that the prophet wasn’t a charlatan, no one had a rendevouz with god or got any unambiguous, unequivocal and generally clear message from any god, it is just a faith issue, to drive the point home, god is far from beiong unique to his creations, everybody claims his own version which not only counters the other but specifically prohibits a believer from even considering an alternative god to worship.
To make matters worst, no religion ever passed the acid test, the monotheistic ones claim inerrancy and holiness but fail miserably when put to a kindergarten test, if 1 + 1 = 2, how come an omniscient and omnipotent, and absolutely merciful god allows children to suffer mercilessly from cancer and die later after under going a painful chemotherapy? How is it possible for a loving god to allow the slow decapitation of a human being while it/she/he/ have the power to stop that just by willing it? This is the point where I respect atheists and any other nonbeliever of the sadistic and remorseless make believe story of useless gods.
If we should be sincere with ourselves, we will at least ask a question like this: how am I sure my religion is the only true one, and why do I have to accept the condemnation of the majority of the earth people to an eternal hellfire? What o I do deal with the cognitive diassonance that is my head regarding the obvious inconsistencies in my holy book?
Some people say that atheism influenced some leaders to commit crimes, well if you understand the default position for you as a human being on the planet earth not a position as a wishful thinker, then you will consider the leader committing the crime as an aberration of humanity, your views about the world concerning gods should be rationally the same as the said leader, the only difference in your thoughts is the love for power and the zeal to stay in power for as long as possible that the leader had/has, some other leaders have been and some still are atheists, and they are considered excellent leaders, we all know the massacre that the mohammadan ideology brought to the world alone surpasses any other, that is Islam alone, a lot of others are there, it is better to deal with human weaknesses and find a human solution that is attainable than to turn to the never answered wishful prayers, and that is obvious, whenever fundies come across something they can’t copmprehend, they attach it to the supernatural, instead of remaining open to natural interpretations, they prefer to take it as supernatural, well it could be supernatural, but it does not prove god or a fundie’s personal god for that matter.
The only other argument for religionists will be to say that some humans need the religion to survive mentally, well I say they need proper education and a lot of human unity lessons so that we avoid the disuniting factor that is inherent in all religions for the betterment of the present world and for the brighter future of our kids and their kids too.
BD ( who hopes grown ups will start acting their age)
Dear Silenzer When I was
Dear Silenzer
When I was talking about the Crusades I was specifically mentioning the part when the Europeans drove the Jihadis back to where they came from. In any case I was not aware that so much of blood shed was involved with the spread of Christianity in Europe, so thanks for the information. However what I wish to now is that were these Holocausts inspired by the Christian texts? As far as I know Jesus never taught people to kill. To tell you the truth I like Jesus a lot for what he said. I mean atleast the part that I am aware of........
What actually keeps me
What actually keeps me astounded perpetually is the fact that most people are capable of rational thinking on many issues, but when it comes to the religious side of their life, the brain goes on hibernation mode, a couple of days ago, there was a debate on whether Einstein believed in god or not, the debate was on this site, now many Einstein’s quotations were made, I find it extremely dishonest if anybody thinks Einstein meant “ a personal god whenever he stated god in his remarks “ an example of such statement is this:
I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)
I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)
The difference between an atheist and Einstein is a matter of choice in expressing views, a religious person agrees on the truth of his scriptures without evidence, that is why it is called faith, while atheism in a nutshell can be defined as simply “ stating the obvious “ some people are of the opinion that atheists have disproven god, while the real position of atheism is “god is unproven” that is one can not prove a negative, if I tell you that I believe in gnomes living on a far away planet, you have no way of absolutely falsifying my beliefs, the rational thing to do will be for me to ask you for a credible evidence about those creatures, as simple as that, if you fail to do so, then your case along with a thousand of other invisible beings claimants' are 100% the same.
Air is invisible, but we can see its effect, how ablout god's effect, what differentiates god's effects from nature's effect?
The believers of invisible beings like to say that the atheist also believe there is no god, well they can have a case if they understand the similarity of that belief with these: I belief there is no married bachelor, or I believe square circles don’t exist.
If one substitutes belief with the word “ know “ from the above sentences, one will not be far from stating the truth, we all know that if a person is married, that person will be called “ a married person “ if he is a bachelor, he/she will be called by what he/she really is.
I will like to ask a fundie this question: what amount of faith or belief do you have to disbelieve in other religions? I hope you get my drift.
People like Einstein mention god in their statements not as a personal god or any anthropomorphic gods, they essentially mean a force that drives the existence of the universe, not the god of the gaps, it is easy for any atheist to ponder on such thoughts, Deists have taken it to another level of bringing in the possibility of a first cause that sets the world on autopilot, most atheists won’t find it too presumptuous if you tell them you are a Deist or that you believe in Spinoza’s god just like Einstein, at least they are rational enough not to be dogamatic and make absolute statements about things they aren’t sure of.
BustedDivinity, I must say
BustedDivinity,
I must say you hit the retards right in the heart. How I wish I could write as good as you. You are the best. Keep it up.
You said [If we should be sincere with ourselves, we will at least ask a question like this: how am I sure my religion is the only true one, and why do I have to accept the condemnation of the majority of the earth people to an eternal hellfire? What o I do deal with the cognitive diassonance that is my head regarding the obvious inconsistencies in my holy book?]
Go read what Marie posted in Cindy Dry's column, she keeps saying what other believe or don't believe. And she clams have read many books. And yet she refuses to explain to me, how could it be love for a merciful and all powerful God to witness 3000 lives killed in 9/11 ?
She said she is now reading a book entitled "There is a God". She seems very excited about it. But I beg her to share with me how the author said about God's absence in 9/11, holocaust and tsunami. I hope I didn't scared her off from here.
You see the problem with drug addicts are they enjoy the delusion drugs give them although they know it is bad to their life and their entire future. But religious retards like Marie enjoys the delusion of her faith as much as drug addicts. Except she refuses to believe her faith is nothing better than drug.
Go go BD go get the nitwits of God. Before they turn our planet into a land of drug addicts.
I have a serious doubt. I am
I have a serious doubt. I am not sure if I dont believe in a supernatural force, I know that I do not believe in the god of all religions. Just take a simple match box. Just place all the ingradients needed for makimg that match box together an leave them together for say 50 years.Do we get a match box?
Yes or no? Just placing all the components needed for making a computer, even if the individual parts are made, together will not necessarily bringforth a computer. Correct? I do not know how to answers these doubts. All religions are man made and you need not have a religious inclination to have a serious doubt about the non existence of a ?GOD,
BustedDivinity, When I
BustedDivinity,
When I googled on Einstein's belief. This is what I found ;
"God is cunning but He is not malicious."
"God is subtle but he is not bloody-minded."
"God is slick, but he ain't mean." (1946)
"God does not play dice."(On many occasions.)
"I want to know how God created the world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."(Unknown date.)
I was shocked to know the famous smart Einstein actually believing in a creator. Although many times he mentioned about the God he believed was nothing like the Bible, Torah or Quran. However he believed in a creator who created Hitler and earth. But on the other hand he was also very confused and not quite sure about what he believed. Maybe he didn't spend much time in understanding creationism.
That was why I told Marie that if Einstein is still alive today I will tell him how impossible to believe in creationism. I am sure he will buy my points. Imagine, a creator who is busily creating everything everyday, day in and day out. From Sunrise to Sunset, from am to pm, he never stops. Cause we know living things give birth every second. And then and maybe occasionally compel to answer some prayers from all the living things including birds and fishes. For what ? To make us suffer ? If you were God will you torture yourself with so much works over nothing ? Will you keep making African babies who immediately starve to death the moment they are born ? If you don't then you are smarter and more merciful than God. God should follow you to live his life and you will be his prophet.
But if God enjoys making creatures and let them suffer or die, and he doesn't care about it. And he never gives a damn about the quality but only the quantity of his creations. Then such a God is crazy and must be stopped.
I say we nuke God before he created more Hitler and Osama to destroy our peaceful world. Agree ?
Conclusions : Not everybody knows everything. Even smart scientist like Einstein sometimes failed in common sense.
Hey LF, that was funny " I
Hey LF, that was funny " I say we nuke god "
Actually if god should all of a sudden become real and he/she/it accepts evil as his creation then I will be the first one to vote for nuking the idiot.
Einstein according to my deductions falls within the category of Deism sometimes while on some occassions he called himself agnostic, whichever one takes, the fact remains that he made a clear statement about him not having a belief in any personal god, this statement came at almost the end of his credible and cherished existence, so we can safely conclude his opinion on the issue.
The problem with these magical thinkers is their failure to follow the actual scientific pace and method of discovery and the general knowledge seeking procedure, anytime they find something that does not conform to the known reality, they ascribe god's input to it, anywhere they find a gap in our current knowledge, that is where science or other empirical researches have not covered, they jump in with the "god did it " statement, little did they know that another person from a different religion has already jumped into that gap long before them.
Harun Yahya likes this kind of argument, he will go to any length to discredit the evolution theory just to make allah real, well christians also discredit the theory to make their god real, while atheists don't have to agree with the said theory to disbelieve in both the christian and the muslims' god, all that a nonbeliever knows is that it is crazy to believe that: a loving god created two humans wih the disobeyance capability in them, put a tree in a garden with the knowledge that the two will eat it (omniscience) still held the two responsible for eating from the tree, later on dropped them down on earth to populate more hell settlers, later on god impregnated a middle-eastern girl with himself inside the womb, after his birth, he grew up to preach allegiance to himself and much later got killed by his creation to appease himself so that he can rescue his beloved creation from a hell that he created.
Now tell me that story is consistent with your brain's understanding of truth, compassion and reason, and don't give me the " god works in mysteriou ways cop-out, I have heard it from the muslim who believe that mo flew to heaven on a winged horse with a female face, it is not a mystery at all, it is a misery to the brain.
BD ( who is sure an Aztec believer also believed his god worked in a mysterious way)
Proudkafir. Agreed, lack of
Proudkafir.
Agreed, lack of knowledge about the mystery of the world does not prove god to be real, let alone personal or individual god, every believer must prove his god version independently since his god's attributes are unique to his god. To all the rational contributors, keep up the good work.
BD, Correction God didn't
BD,
Correction God didn't send his son Jesus down on earth for a suicidal mission. He sent himself. Remember this Jesus is God. So God sent himself down so that we can kill him. Why God wanted to do that ? Because God wanted people like us to laugh at him. God has a very good sense of humor I'm sure.
If you have Christians working in the production line, please be careful with the quality of the products. Because according to their deluded mindset, they prefer to send someone to help the customer rectify the problems of the product then making it right in the first place back in the production line. Christians learnt it from God that Quality is not important but Quantity is.
Yes it becomes the habits of Christians and Muslims to say God did this and God will do that. Therefore God did 9/11 and God did the tsunami. But ....God loves everybody including the victims.
If you never laugh and enjoy when you educate Muslims and Christians, then you are a very serious person who don't enjoy life. God made Muslims and Christians to amuse us and himself. This is the reason why I am so busy and yet I just can't quit here. I don't want to miss a thing from God's cretins.
Conclusions :
If stupidity can convert to dollar and cents then people like Marie, Tuvong, proudchristians and all Muslims are among the richest in the world. As for Bill Gate and Waren Buffet... go eat your hearts out.
Philip Saenz wrote: "I
Philip Saenz wrote:
"I understand that many people don’t believe in the supernatural, but I do because of the many experiences in the supernatural. I’m not alone. Many good, sincere, highly intelligent people have experienced the supernatural. Of course it’s easy for me to believe because I too have experienced the supernatural. You may laugh all you want and even condemn me, but there is another world, and it’s supernatural. If I were you I would leave my mind open. May God bless you."
Just want to let you know you are not alone.
Silenzer wrote:
"The crusade wars of Christians started right after the birth of political Christianity in 325 AD after the council of Naecea. The Hellenistic temples, the Roman temples, the Gentiles, the Druids, the Celtecs, and all other so called PAGAN and HEATHEN religions/cultures were systematically destroyed by the Christians, which was fully backed by successive Popes (Paapis). I admit that they did a good thing against the Jihadis when the latter invaded Europe. But don’t forget Christianity destroyed many civilizations, cultures, and religions ruthlessly. Look at the verses from OT and NT quoted by Continuum. Those verses are the root causes of Christian Jihad."
Dude the crusades did not occur until the late 11th century. Those imperial wars you were referring to did not happen until the late 4th century and Constantine had nothing to do with them. It was the Roman Emperor Theodosius who committed these atrocities to gain control over the populace. In fact during the first part of his reign he left the pagans alone, because he needed the vote of the pagan ruling class. But Theodosius figured it was no longer politically savvy to let the pagans practice their religion and eventually went after them. It was Theodosius who made Nicene Christianity the official Roman religion on February 27, 380.
Those verses were not the root of Christian jihad and in fact many historians state while there is violence in the Bible and while Christians did commit violence against nonbelievers, they did not use those verses to commit violent acts against nonbelievers.
Ibrahim wrote:
Dear Silenzer
When I was talking about the Crusades I was specifically mentioning the part when the Europeans drove the Jihadis back to where they came from. In any case I was not aware that so much of blood shed was involved with the spread of Christianity in Europe, so thanks for the information. However what I wish to now is that were these Holocausts inspired by the Christian texts? As far as I know Jesus never taught people to kill. To tell you the truth I like Jesus a lot for what he said. I mean atleast the part that I am aware of……..
I recommend reading Religion of Peace: Why Christianity is and Islam isn't by Robert Spencer, The Case for Faith: A Journalist Investigates the Toughest Objections to Christianity, by Lee Strobel, and The Faith: A History of Christianity by Brian Moynahan. These books talk about the history of violence in Christianity and what lead Christians to commit violence against others.
The point that is missing is
The point that is missing is that the Chriastian religion as taught by Christ and his followers did not advise people to follow the OT. That was fulfilled. Jesus said obey just two commandments. Love God and love your neighbor. Jesus said you cannot love God if you hate your brother. The OT was for Israel only and for information only.
Jesus was sent by God. God didnt send himself. If so he would have said i am coming, not I sent.
Islam and Christendom are the same and Muhammad copied from the Talmud not the Bible. The Quran is the Babylonish Talmud inreverse. Muhammad hated the Jews because they laughed at him. The Jews made fun and he made them write the Quran opposite of the Talmud and Muhammad tried to steal the religion of Judaism, Sabeans, and Roman Catholics and others.
Muhammad included in the Quran folktales of Jews and Arab Christians. They laughed at him, but to get them to convert, he included their teaching in his religion. He was slick. He became allah.
Tales of Jews Muhammad loved, Adam was 90 feet tall and landed in India.
Semen is in the belly
No chess
No wigs
Jews and christians are apes and pigs
Jesus never called anyone names
Muhammad tried to replace Jesus
Crusades was done by the Roman Catholics as no Protestants were around back then. Muhammad hated the Roman Catholics out of fear of Rome.
For the Muslims who are
For the Muslims who are trying to rewrite the Quran, get over it you are stuck with waste. the Quran cannot be rerwritten as Allah's word are permanent. You have to hate, kill, and have sex with babies, animals, and smoke weed.
All this is pointed out in your book that have been here for 1500 years.
Hitler and Muhammad were into the occult and sought the death of all Jews and the enslavement of all Africans. Muhammad aka Allah said Africans were made black to be slaves and the color would make them easy to see.
Islam is racism and slavery and pedophilia and incest and hate of dogs and women. Women are just for sex and to make more warriors for Allah-Afghanistan. Muslims rewrite everything. After moving into a nation, they claim that everyone was born a Muslim to make themselves feel good. Not one thing has ever been invented in Arabia by an Arab. NOTHING.
BLACK AMERICANS HAVE BEEN made fools of by saying Islam is a black man's religion, yet Arabic is from Asia not Africa. Everything is Arabic. Which tribe if Arabic in Africa? Quranic verses always condemn blacks. If the religion of Islam is a black man's thing, why denegrate your self. I guess black men are insane Ishaq 243 or STUPID Tabari 1:280. THINK BLACK PEOPLE THINK.
Pakistan are insane also as Arabs invaded and almost destroyed the Indian civilization. Indian didnt speak Arabic nor Egypt until the Islamic hordes moved in,. I guess Muslims built the pyramids.
Why didnt Moses speak Arabic since it is God's language and so pure?
Psalms 83 shows that Arabs wanted the Jews dead in the sea 2000 years before Jesus. Muhammad came 600 years after Jesus. Lies, Lies is Islam or Satanic verses. Sura 3:54 says so.
Mary wrote: Dude the crusades
Mary wrote: Dude the crusades did not occur until the late 11th century. Those imperial wars you were referring to did not happen until the late 4th century and Constantine had nothing to do with them.
>> Never try to twist facts. Remember, it was Xian mobs who killed HYPATIA ,(in early 5th century) the western world's first female Mathematician, astrologer, and Philosopher by ripping apart each and every part of her body INSIDE A CHURCH. Being a woman (I guess so) how can you say it was not a crusade? Don't forget as soon as Xnity became the official religion of Rome, orders were given to persecute non-Christians. The Roman, Greek, Druid, Celtic, and other temples were razed to the ground in their iconoclastic futy. So what verses inspired the Christians to wreak large scale destruction of idols, sculptures? I have read OT and NT very carefully. Read them carefully in case you have missed them.
DEUTERONOMY 12: 2-3 Ye shall utterly destroy all the aplaces, wherein the nations which ye shall bpossess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: And ye shall aoverthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their bgroves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place. ---- Mary this is just an example; Bible has lot many of them. When you read them thinking that they are told by God, please use both sides of your brain to confirm.
It was Theodosius who made Nicene Christianity the official Roman religion on February 27, 380.
>> You see a Christian ruler did it with the backing of the Church. Right from the inception of Xnity till the day of separation of religion (Xnity) from the State, Xnity was barborous. Do all sins in the name of Jesus and he will carry them. When people become educated they will move away from such fairy-tale concepts. The fall of Xnity in the west is precisely due to this reason.
Marie: Those verses were not the root of Christian jihad and in fact many historians state while there is violence in the Bible and while Christians did commit violence against nonbelievers, they did not use those verses to commit violent acts against nonbelievers.
>> Now tell me why Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, and Jains did not destroy religious places and buildings belonging to other religions? This is precisely because there are no verses condemning idol worship or telling them that they will go to hell for worshipping idols. However Bible and Quran preaches that. I see a direct connection between what Xians and Muslims did with what their scriptures teach. Take Duetoronomy 12:2-3? If you are not following it, then you are no more a Christian but a human. If you say it was OT then the author of OT is not God.
btilly, You said [The point
btilly,
You said [The point that is missing is that the Chriastian religion as taught by Christ and his followers did not advise people to follow the OT. That was fulfilled.]
Maybe you are a new comer here. Tell me have you read the Bible ? Now, I assume you are an adults and educated and you know what you are talking about. Also I assume you don't submit your brain to God like Muslims do to Allah.
Here is my theory of crazily-silly which is quite similar to Einstein's theory of relativity
Is OT = words of God ? If yes then please substitute this equation into your quote,
Christ and his followers did not advise people to follow the words of God, meaning ....
Christ and his followers denied OT and denied the words of God. It also means,
Christ and his followers did not believe in OT and the words of God.
therefore,
Christ and his followers are smarter than God, and God must worship Christ and his followers according to your theory.
But then again the Bible says;
Jesus = God
Therefore it was Jesus who started OT and he denied his own words in OT or ....
God denied his own words in OT
But why God did such a crazy things ? Because he regretted what he said in OT and that was why he started NT which contradicts the OT ?
If you find my explanations crazy, silly and illogical, please don't blame me. It is the Bible that's silly and illogical here not me. I only trying to explain what is said in the Bible to you.
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You said [Jesus said obey just two commandments. Love God and love your neighbor. Jesus said you cannot love God if you hate your brother. The OT was for Israel only and for information only. ]
This is what the Bible says, Hosea 13:16
King James Bible
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Now we all know the Bible says Jesus is God, therefore according to King James Bible, Jesus said this ; their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Maybe Jesus was like Mohammad, playing 2 face. Jesus was a demon and prophet at the same time.
Tell us, will you rip up pregnant women and kill children according to God's words or Jesus' words in Hosea 13:16 ? If you don't then you are far more better than God and Jesus. The Christians should promote you as God and worship you.
Again if you find my explanations crazy, silly and illogical, please don't blame me. It is the Bible that's silly and illogical here not me. I only trying to explain what is said in the Bible to you.
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You said [Jesus was sent by God. God didnt send himself. If so he would have said i am coming, not I sent.]
Here is my theory of crazily-silly again
The Bible says
A. Jesus = God
The BIble says
B. God sent Jesus here to die for us
Now, kindlyy subsitute A into B, therefore ;
God sent God here to die for us, it means
God sent himself to die for us,
OR
Jesus sent Jesus here to die for us, it means
Jesus sent himself to die for us,
When you say "Jesus was sent by God. God didnt send himself", it means you don't believe Jesus is God. You deny the Bible. You deny God's words. You want to be a new prophet. You believe you are smarter than God. You call God a liar because he told you Jesus is God.
Therefore if you find my explanations crazy, silly and illogical, please don't blame me. It is the Bible that's silly and illogical here not me. I only trying to explain what is said in the Bible to you.
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You said [Islam and Christendom are the same and Muhammad copied from the Talmud not the Bible. The Quran is the Babylonish Talmud inreverse. Muhammad hated the Jews because they laughed at him. The Jews made fun and he made them write the Quran opposite of the Talmud and Muhammad tried to steal the religion of Judaism, Sabeans, and Roman Catholics and others.
Muhammad included in the Quran folktales of Jews and Arab Christians. They laughed at him, but to get them to convert, he included their teaching in his religion. He was slick. He became allah.
Tales of Jews Muhammad loved, Adam was 90 feet tall and landed in India.
Semen is in the belly
No chess
No wigs
Jews and christians are apes and pigs
Jesus never called anyone names
Muhammad tried to replace Jesus]
Thank you for proving to us the Quran is stupid and funny. In return of favor I shall share the stupidity of the Bible with you ? The Bible says;
Earth was created 4000BC ago which is almost 6000 years from present day.
Earth is immovable.
Could you help us to decide which one is more dumber ? The Bible or the Quran ? To us, it is 50 50.
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You said [Crusades was done by the Roman Catholics as no Protestants were around back then. Muhammad hated the Roman Catholics out of fear of Rome.]
Whichever, but one thing for sure. If God or Jesus is real then he was witnessting the crusade. Why do you think Jesus or God who said created the crusaders and loves all his creation but didn't do anything to stop the killing ?
If your answer is freewill. Then God and Jesus were cruel to give their creations freewill to kill each other and that contradicts with God and Jesus are merciful and they love us.
Btilly, if each of your stupidity worth one USD, then ....
congratulations, you are a multi billionaire now
Conclusions :
Sometimes the Christians and Muslims really make us jealous of them. Because they have the opportunity to sell their stupidity to God in exchange of wealth. I mean filthy rich, richer than Bill Gate and much much more than Warren Buffet.
tHE bIBLE SAYS ALL OF US GO
tHE bIBLE SAYS ALL OF US GO TO HELL, AS it is only the grave. We all return to the dust. Egypt had a hell. Jews never believed in a hellfire until Judaism. The Bible never said that. It was the romans who said that when they took over Christianity and made it Christendom. God does not punish us by everlasting fire. That is a satanic verse. That is why Islam followed Roman pagans and the Talmud not the OT not the NT. The hellfire is a lie and anti Jesus. Muhammad was lied to and he bought it. Islam is muhammad aka allah with 3 girls and no sons.