The Clash of Islam and Liberalism
Submitted by Dr. Sam Vaknin on Fri, 02/06/2009 - 06:06
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PDF versionIslam is not merely a religion. It is also - and perhaps, foremost - a state ideology. It is all-pervasive and missionary. It permeates every aspect of social cooperation and culture. It is an organizing principle, a narrative, a philosophy, a value system, and a vade mecum. In this it resembles Confucianism and, to some extent, Hinduism.
Judaism and its offspring, Christianity - though heavily involved in political affairs throughout the ages - have kept their dignified distance from such carnal matters. These are religions of “heaven” as opposed to Islam, a practical, pragmatic, hands-on, ubiquitous, “earthly” creed.
Secular religions - Democratic Liberalism, Communism, Fascism, Nazism, Socialism and other isms - are more akin to Islam than to, let’s say, Buddhism. They are universal, prescriptive, and total. They provide recipes, rules, and norms regarding every aspect of existence - individual, social, cultural, moral, economic, political, military, and philosophical.
At the end of the Cold War, Democratic Liberalism stood triumphant over the fresh graves of its ideological opponents. They have all been eradicated. This precipitated Fukuyama’s premature diagnosis (the End of History). But one state ideology, one bitter rival, one implacable opponent, one contestant for world domination, one antithesis remained - Islam.
Militant Islam is, therefore, not a cancerous mutation of “true” Islam. On the contrary, it is the purest expression of its nature as an imperialistic religion which demands unmitigated obedience from its followers and regards all infidels as both inferior and avowed enemies.
The same can be said about Democratic Liberalism. Like Islam, it does not hesitate to exercise force, is missionary, colonizing, and regards itself as a monopolist of the “truth” and of “universal values”. Its antagonists are invariably portrayed as depraved, primitive, and below par.
Such mutually exclusive claims were bound to lead to an all-out conflict sooner or later. The “War on Terrorism” is only the latest round in a millennium-old war between Islam and other “world systems”.
Such interpretation of recent events enrages many. They demand to know (often in harsh tones):
- Don’t you see any difference between terrorists who murder civilians and regular armies in battle?
Both regulars and irregulars slaughter civilians as a matter of course. “Collateral damage” is the main outcome of modern, total warfare - and of low intensity conflicts alike.
There is a major difference between terrorists and soldiers, though:
Terrorists make carnage of noncombatants their main tactic - while regular armies rarely do. Such conduct is criminal and deplorable, whoever the perpetrator.
But what about the killing of combatants in battle? How should we judge the slaying of soldiers by terrorists in combat?
Modern nation-states enshrined the self-appropriated monopoly on violence in their constitutions and ordinances (and in international law). Only state organs - the army, the police - are permitted to kill, torture, and incarcerate.
Terrorists are trust-busters: they, too, want to kill, torture, and incarcerate. They seek to break the death cartel of governments by joining its ranks.
Thus, when a soldier kills terrorists and (”inadvertently”) civilians (as “collateral damage”) - it is considered above board. But when the terrorist decimates the very same soldier - he is decried as an outlaw.
Moreover, the misbehavior of some countries - not least the United States - led to the legitimization of terrorism. Often nation-states use terrorist organizations to further their geopolitical goals. When this happens, erstwhile outcasts become “freedom fighters”, pariahs become allies, murderers are recast as sensitive souls struggling for equal rights. This contributes to the blurring of ethical percepts and the blunting of moral judgment.
- Would you rather live under sharia law? Don’t you find Liberal Democracy vastly superior to Islam?
Superior, no. Different - of course. Having been born and raised in the West, I naturally prefer its standards to Islam’s. Had I been born in a Muslim country, I would have probably found the West and its principles perverted and obnoxious.
The question is meaningless because it presupposes the existence of an objective, universal, culture and period independent set of preferences. Luckily, there is no such thing.
- In this clash of civilization whose side are you on?
This is not a clash of civilizations. Western culture is inextricably intertwined with Islamic knowledge, teachings, and philosophy. Christian fundamentalists have more in common with Muslim militants than with East Coast or French intellectuals.
Muslims have always been the West’s most defining Other. Islamic existence and “gaze” helped to mold the West’s emerging identity as a historical construct. From Spain to India, the incessant friction and fertilizing interactions with Islam shaped Western values, beliefs, doctrines, moral tenets, political and military institutions, arts, and sciences.
This war is about world domination. Two incompatible thought and value systems compete for the hearts and minds (and purchasing power) of the denizens of the global village. Like in the Westerns, by high noon, either one of them is left standing - or both will have perished.
Where does my loyalty reside?
I am a Westerner, so I hope the West wins this confrontation. But, in the process, it would be good if it were humbled, deconstructed, and reconstructed. One beneficial outcome of this conflict is the demise of the superpower system - a relic of days bygone and best forgotten. I fully believe and trust that in militant Islam, the United States has found its match.
In other words, I regard militant Islam as a catalyst that will hasten the transformation of the global power structure from unipolar to multipolar. It may also commute the United States itself. It will definitely rejuvenate religious thought and cultural discourse. All wars do.
Aren’t you overdoing it? After all, al-Qaida is just a bunch of terrorists on the run!
The West is not fighting al-Qaida. It is facing down the circumstances and ideas that gave rise to al-Qaida. Conditions - such as poverty, ignorance, disease, oppression, and xenophobic superstitions - are difficult to change or to reverse. Ideas are impossible to suppress. Already, militant Islam is far more widespread and established that any Western government would care to admit.
History shows that all terrorist groupings ultimately join the mainstream. Many countries - from Israel to Ireland and from East Timor to Nicaragua - are governed by former terrorists. Terrorism enhances social upward mobility and fosters the redistribution of wealth and resources from the haves to haves not.
Al-Qaida, despite its ominous portrayal in the Western press - is no exception. It, too, will succumb, in due time, to the twin lures of power and money. Nihilistic and decentralized as it is - its express goals are the rule of Islam and equitable economic development. It is bound to get its way in some countries.
The world of the future will be truly pluralistic. The proselytizing zeal of Liberal Democracy and Capitalism has rendered them illiberal and intolerant. The West must accept the fact that a sizable chunk of humanity does not regard materialism, individualism, liberalism, progress, and democracy - at least in their Western guises - as universal or desirable.
Live and let live (and live and let die) must replace the West’s malignant optimism and intellectual and spiritual arrogance.
Edward K. Thompson, the managing editor of “Life” from 1949 to 1961, once wrote:
“‘Life’ must be curious, alert, erudite and moral, but it must achieve this without being holier-than-thou, a cynic, a know-it-all or a Peeping Tom.”
The West has grossly and thoroughly violated Thompson’s edict. In its oft-interrupted intercourse with these forsaken regions of the globe, it has acted, alternately, as a Peeping Tom, a cynic and a know it all. It has invariably behaved as if it were holier-than-thou. In an unmitigated and fantastic succession of blunders, miscalculations, vain promises, unkept threats and unkempt diplomats - it has driven the world to the verge of war and the regions it “adopted” to the threshold of economic and social upheaval.
Enamored with the new ideology of free marketry cum democracy, the West first assumed the role of the omniscient. It designed ingenious models, devised foolproof laws, imposed fail-safe institutions and strongly “recommended” measures. Its representatives, the tribunes of the West, ruled the plebeian East with determination rarely equaled by skill or knowledge.
Velvet hands couched in iron gloves, ignorance disguised by economic newspeak, geostrategic interests masquerading as forms of government, characterized their dealings with the natives. Preaching and beseeching from ever higher pulpits, they poured opprobrium and sweet delusions on the eagerly duped, naive, bewildered masses.
The deceit was evident to the indigenous cynics - but it was the failure that dissuaded them and others besides. The West lost its former colonies not when it lied egregiously, not when it pretended to know for sure when it surely did not know, not when it manipulated and coaxed and coerced - but when it failed.
To the peoples of these regions, the king was fully dressed. It was not a little child but an enormous debacle that exposed his nudity. In its presumptuousness and pretentiousness, feigned surety and vain clichés, imported economic models and exported cheap raw materials - the West succeeded to demolish beyond reconstruction whole economies, to ravage communities, to wreak ruination upon the centuries-old social fabric, woven diligently by generations.
It brought crime and drugs and mayhem but gave very little in return, only a horizon beclouded and thundering with vacuous eloquence. As a result, while tottering regional governments still pay lip service to the values of Capitalism, the masses are enraged and restless and rebellious and baleful and anti-Western to the core.
The disenchanted were not likely to acquiesce for long - not only with the West’s neo-colonialism but also with its incompetence and inaptitude, with the nonchalant experimentation that it imposed upon them and with the abyss between its proclamations and its performance.
Throughout this time, the envoys of the West - its mediocre politicians, its insatiably ruthless media, its obese tourists, its illiterate soldiers, and its armchair economists - continue to play the role of God, wreaking greater havoc than even the original.
While confessing to omniscience (in breach of every tradition scientific and religious), they also developed a kind of world weary, unshaven cynicism interlaced with fascination at the depths plumbed by the locals’ immorality and amorality.
The jet-set Peeping Toms reside in five star hotels (or luxurious apartments) overlooking the communist, or Middle-Eastern, or African shantytowns. They drive utility vehicles to the shabby offices of the native bureaucrats and dine in $100 per meal restaurants (”it’s so cheap here”).
In between kebab and hummus they bemoan and grieve the corruption and nepotism and cronyism (”I simply love their ethnic food, but they are so…”). They mourn the autochthonous inability to act decisively, to cut red tape, to manufacture quality, to open to the world, to be less xenophobic (said while casting a disdainful glance at the native waiter).
To them it looks like an ancient force of nature and, therefore, an inevitability - hence their cynicism. Mostly provincial people with horizons limited by consumption and by wealth, these heralds of the West adopt cynicism as shorthand for cosmopolitanism. They erroneously believe that feigned sarcasm lends them an air of ruggedness and rich experience and the virile aroma of decadent erudition. Yet all it does is make them obnoxious and even more repellent to the residents than they already were.
Ever the preachers, the West - both Europeans and Americans - uphold themselves as role models of virtue to be emulated, as points of reference, almost inhuman or superhuman in their taming of the vices, avarice up front.
Yet the chaos and corruption in their own homes is broadcast live, day in and day out, into the cubicles inhabited by the very people they seek to so transform. And they conspire and collaborate in all manner of venality and crime and scam and rigged elections in all the countries they put the gospel to.
In trying to put an end to history, they seem to have provoked another round of it - more vicious, more enduring, more traumatic than before. That the West is paying the price for its mistakes I have no doubt. For isn’t it a part and parcel of its teachings that everything has a price and that there is always a time of reckoning?
Note - Globalization - Liberalism’s Disastrous Gamble
From Venezuela to Thailand, democratic regimes are being toppled by authoritarian substitutes: the military, charismatic left-wingers, or mere populists. Even in the USA, the bastion of constitutional rule, civil and human rights are being alarmingly eroded (though not without precedent in wartime).
The prominent ideologues of liberal democracy have committed a grave error by linking themselves inextricably with the doctrine of freemarketry and the emerging new order of globalization. As Thomas Friedman correctly observes in “The Lexus and the Olive Tree”, both strains of thought are strongly identified with the United States of America (USA).
Thus, liberal democracy came to be perceived by the multitudes as a ruse intended to safeguard the interests of an emerging, malignantly narcissistic empire (the USA) and of rapacious multinationals. Liberal democracy came to be identified with numbing, low-brow cultural homogeneity, encroachment on privacy and the individual, and suppression of national and other idiosyncratic sentiments.
Liberal democracy came to be confused and confuted with neo-colonial exploitation, social Darwinism, and the crumbling of social compacts and long-standing treaties, both explicit and implicit. It even came to be associated with materialism and a bewildering variety of social ills: rising crime rates, unemployment, poverty, drug addiction, prostitution, organ trafficking, monopolistic behavior, corporate malfeasance, and other antisocial forms of conduct.
The backlash was, thus, inevitable.
Note - Exclusionary Ideas of Progress
Communism, Fascism, Nazism, and Religious Fundamentalism are as utopian as the classical Idea of Progress, which is most strongly reified by Western science and liberal democracy. All four illiberal ideologies firmly espouse a linear view of history: Man progresses by accumulating knowledge and wealth and by constructing ever-improving polities. Similarly, the classical, all-encompassing, idea of progress is perceived to be a “Law of Nature” with human jurisprudence and institutions as both its manifestations and descriptions. Thus, all ideas of progress are pseudo-scientific.
Still, there are some important distinctions between Communism, Fascism, Nazism, and Religious Fundamentalism, on the one hand, and Western liberalism, on the other hand:
All four totalitarian ideologies regard individual tragedies and sacrifices as the inevitable lubricant of the inexorable March Forward of the species. Yet, they redefine “humanity” (who is human) to exclude large groups of people. Communism embraces the Working Class (Proletariat) but not the Bourgeoisie, Nazism promotes one Volk but denigrates and annihilates others, Fascism bows to the Collective but viciously persecutes dissidents, Religious Fundamentalism posits a chasm between believers and infidels.
In these four intolerant ideologies, the exclusion of certain reviled groups of people is both a prerequisite for the operation of the “Natural Law of Progress” and an integral part of its motion forward. The moral and spiritual obligation of “real” Man to future generations is to “unburden” the Law, to make it possible for it to operate smoothly and in optimal conditions, with all hindrances (read: undesirables) removed (read: murdered).
All four ideologies subvert modernity (in other words, Progress itself) by using its products (technology) to exclude and kill “outsiders”, all in the name of servicing “real” humanity and bettering its lot.
But liberal democracy has been intermittently guilty of the same sin. The same deranged logic extends to the construction and maintenance of nuclear weapons by countries like the USA, the UK, France, and Israel: they are intended to protect “good” humanity against “bad” people (e.g., Communists during the Cold war, Arabs, or failed states such as Iran). Even global warming is a symptom of such exclusionary thinking: the rich feel that they have the right to tax the “lesser” poor by polluting our common planet and by disproportionately exhausting its resources.
The fact is that, at least since the 1920s, the very existence of Mankind is being recurrently threatened by exclusionary ideas of progress. Even Colonialism, which predated modern ideologies, was inclusive and sought to “improve” the Natives” and “bring them to the White Man’s level” by assimilating or incorporating them in the culture and society of the colonial power. This was the celebrated (and then decried) “White Man’s Burden”. That we no longer accept our common fate and the need to collaborate to improve our lot is nothing short of suicidal.
_____________
Dr. Sam Vaknin is the author of Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited and After the Rain - How the West Lost the East. He served as a columnist for Global Politician, Central Europe Review, PopMatters, Bellaonline, and eBookWeb, a United Press International (UPI) Senior Business Correspondent, and the editor of mental health and Central East Europe categories in The Open Directory and Suite101.
Great Article! When I
Great Article! When I actually see young college kids wear Che Guevera T-shirts and proclaim him as their idol, i feel really sad.
These people are not very different from the muslims who idoloze muhammad. while the pobject of idolization might be different, the basic intent is the same.
There is a rock band based in US, which proudly flaunts Che Guevera images on its musical instrumenst as if he were a great guy. This admiration for a person is extremely high in cultists, be they muhammadans or followers of other cults.
However the appreciation for muhammad is something that is unparralel in all other cults. cheifly because islam or muhammadnism is a cut disguised in the veil of a religion. allah or god, has lent a huge deal of legitimacy of the thoughts of muhammadans. so following muhammad's example is the biggest high in a muslim's life.
If those people only knew
If those people only knew what they ask for. Islam is nothing but a cult. Muhammad found out how to use his own people first and then others. All he had to do was promise goodies on earth and in Paradise as long as they did what he wanted. He became Allah! He became god. Karl Marx is now god of Communism as Obama's mother was a fellow traveler, a code word for communism in the 60s. Jim Jones became god!
I cannot agree with all he says, but this is how he sees the situation.
Ibrahim, I missed your
Ibrahim, I missed your attention in one post so here I am. You were disappointed by one guy who was still throwing insanities at Muslims. You probably were disappointed because your family were still Muslims although you turned an apostate.
That’s what I said all along. It’s difficult to have unmoderated messages and stream of hate and angry comments to invite people. How different was that guy from the angry clergy who have all the hate for non Muslims in this world. If this web site is about ‘’Faith Freedom’’ then remember you have done a bad job. Because you have attacked a faith of billion plus people. Your intentions were to fight the evil within Islam but sadly you became the same evil you were fighting. It’s not you but many more people who comment bringing the same hate here.
I always want to debate with people who can help Muslims come out of this heart wailing and wrenching conservativeness.
Here is my simple gist:-
1. Not all whites are racists.
2. Not all Catholics go around in poorer countries brining people with money to change religion.
3. Not all Hindus become bad because a group of loonies in India break a mosque or attack Muslims in Gujarat or Christians in a village. In fact in Pakistan I get a headache when people having made this state into a dismal failure even talk about India. A state where there are Muslims and Christians head of states and army generals and a population which has fought to keep its constitution fiercely secular especially with we as neighbours need to be saluted rather than denigrated.
4. Not all Jews are bad.
5. Not all Muslims are misguided.
6. Not all who attack Muslims belief are humans. They are guided by intense hate for humanity as well. If they wanted betterment of Muslims they would have debated in a sane way.
I have been studying a lot and somehow it seems true Islam got lost. The Quran itself was written after 200 years of the prophet (PBUH). Maybe a lot of Muslim scholars just distorted prophets (pbuh) character or filled hate verses to serve their vested agendas. Remember the wars started after the prophet (pbuh)
What Halal pork did to you made you feel bad? Like you not all Muslims can be apostates but a collective consciousness can be evolved.
The ordinary Muslims are innocent. They are fed hate. And that hate is justified based on the holy book. They can’t escape that circle. They are fed opium of distrust because that serves agendas of higher clergy. In a Muslim country Muslims are still victims because of the west or India in Pakistan. In Countries where Muslims are minorities they are still victims because of number of other reasons. And then they find the sudden flash of lightening that they need to fight a war for which they will be rewarded.
Remember if you want this web site to be any credible and Muslims to join in a debate then first moderate messages. There can be many like halal pork and others and amim but then are u for an open debate or are u for a hate mongering web site? If not then your web site probably never had direction or has missed the direction.
‘’IF YOUR PURPOSE IS GOOD THEN GOOD WILL HELP YOU’’ but if your purpose is to denigrate and attack you will fail and your failure will turn you into the same bad that you are supposedly fighting.
You can’t bring sanity in an insane world by attacking someone’s belief system which he has nurtured for years. You became an apostate because of years of hate in your surroundings and because what you saw.
All religions are crap. I am a Pakistani Sindhi Muslim whose forefathers were Hindu Brahmins. So why do I hate Hindus? Just because of jahaliyat. I will fight from within the folds of Islam so that people see what they have lost the strength to see.
Dear Wasim I used to feel
Dear Wasim
I used to feel just the way you do Wasim. i understand what you are trying to tell me. I have been saying this again and again in this Forum that not all muslims are hateful people and nor do I say that I hate all Muslims.
If I say that I would be including a lot of my family in that list. I have met some muslims who are more peaceful than jains. My mother has been a vegeterain all her life is an excellent example. She just cannot hear the moans of an animal when it is slaughtered for Qurabni or otherwise.
However Wasim the point that I was trying to make is that people like my mother and those other good muslims are not following their Deen. They actually straying away from it. what they practice is not Islam. This is what I have been trying to tell you.
Look at Sindhi Muslims, till very recently they were perhaps amogst the most peaceful of muslims in the subcontinent. Even during the 1947 riots very few Sindhis participated in the riots. However this sympathy did not come as a result of beeing good Muslims, rather it came as a result of not following Islamic traditions.
Of course one could argue that the Prophet's biography and his traditions have been corrupted by some Muslims. But if that is the case then we dont have much islam left? I mean one cannot undertand the Qur'an without reading the Tafsir and the relevant Hadiths. To any person reading the Qur'an without the Tafsir is a task which will get him no where. One cannot understand it and its a fact. Hence the very notion that Qur'an is of divine origin is put in jeopardy.
So tell me Wasim what do we do in such a situation. Today Muslims expecially the younger generation is being brainwashed by the mullahs as you said. However what are these Mullahs using as brainwashing material? Verses from the Qur'an..... So they are not mutilating their religion in order to brainwash people, rather what they are doing is presenting the truth of Islam as it is written and understood.
This is the point which I want you to understand, my dear brother.
As far as crazy people are concerned, there are plenty. You are still a Muslim and I have well a 1000 times declared my apostacy and yet that is not good enough for some people. They wil atck me with everything that they have in them. However this should not deter me from seeking the truth.
Ofcourse I feel hurt when I see such comments coming from people who don't even know a single muslim. They are full of hatred. For such people there is no cure. The best we can do is to stay away from them.
As I had said in a previous post' " some people are keys to goodness and locks to evil and others are keys to evil and locks to goodness"
There are many times that I feel like abandoning the FFI forum for good, after looking at the posts of a few commentors. But then again Wasim, are these people worth it. No they are not, I know they will hate me either way. Just because I was born in a Muslim family.
Like you my ancestors were Kashmiri Pandits. My ancestor had to convert to Islam inorder to save the honour of the women in his family. He did not have a choice. So will I ever love those people who forced my ancestor to do that.... Never.... But why hate me for what someone else did, and that too when I have left the faith.
But then again , Wasim, some people cannot be satisfied.
I'll give you an example. Irfan Khan who is a fine cricketeer and plays for India. Whenever he performs well, people appreaciate him and call him a great criketeer and a good India. But when this guy does not perform, there is a minority of who call him a salla Mullah, or a bloody paki.
These people are few and they dont matter, the vast majority is not like that. Hence let us not allow such people hijack the purpose of the site.
A few more points for you to
A few more points for you to reflect upon Wasim
( I am pasting your comments above to make the conversation clear)
I have been studying a lot and somehow it seems true Islam got lost. The Quran itself was written after 200 years of the prophet (PBUH). Maybe a lot of Muslim scholars just distorted prophets (pbuh) character or filled hate verses to serve their vested agendas. Remember the wars started after the prophet (pbuh)
Let us say that the real Islam and real Qur'an were lost somewhere down the line and what we have today are corrupted scriptures. So what are we left with, its something else. Hence there is no point in believing in something about that which you do not know. Maybe the Prophet was a good man, but how will we ever know. We cannot go on believing in something when the facts tell us something else.
The second point is that why would Muslims distort their own history and the history of their prophet? I don’t see any reason for doing so.....
Moreover Wasim how will you fight within the folds of Islam. There were many like you and me who use to think like that. They were labelled as heretics and killed. Look at what happened to the Ahmediyyas in Pakistan. Today there are so many heretical sects living in India, eg. The Dawoodi Bohras and the Isamilees. They do not fear the Sunnis, because they live in a democracy. While the same Ahmediyyas have to live in fear in a Muslim country. The Green and Red turbans are a minority but do you know where they get their strength from. The masses.... We the people are their strength. When the Mullahs see Muslims leaving Islam for good they will be left redundant and helpless.
Another big problem in reforming Islam is that how do go about it. You will have to throw out most of what is written in the book, the traditions, Sunnah, Fiqh. So where do we begin with. In the last 1400 Muslims have created a huge mess and it is impossible to rectify this mess.
I know you might think as to how a religion followed by 1.5 billion people can be challenged, but then again these 1.5 billion are at the greatest risk. Muslims today are killing each other and others like never before and they find their justifications from their book. What will you tell them, don’t follow your book.
The whole premise of Islam is based on Islam being the only true religion of god or allah. Can you reform this basic fact, Wasim. No you cant do that, because if you do that people don’t have any reason to follow Islam. Other than the claim that Islam is the only true religion, Islam does not offer anything in terms on spirituality. So tell me Wasim, if really are serious about reform Islam, tell me how you wish to do it and I would be more than happy to help you out.
"Would you rather live under
"Would you rather live under sharia law? Don’t you find Liberal Democracy vastly superior to Islam?
Superior, no. Different - of course. Having been born and raised in the West, I naturally prefer its standards to Islam’s. Had I been born in a Muslim country, I would have probably found the West and its principles perverted and obnoxious.
The question is meaningless because it presupposes the existence of an objective, universal, culture and period independent set of preferences. Luckily, there is no such thing. "
Well, I beg to differ. The western standards are superior because we grant basic human rights to all humans regardless of race, gender or religion. This is not true for Islam. Furthermore, liberalism as an ideology is not based on an irrational belief in a book but on rational reasoning. Political or moral values are not right or wrong, because they were taught to you as a child or written down in some book. They are right, because they make sense. So why is there human dignity? Why do we grant human rights? Read Kant:
"Everything has either a price or a dignity. Whatever has a price can be replaced by something else as its equivalent; on the other hand, whatever is above all price, and therefore admits of no equivalent, has a dignity. But that which constitutes the condition under which alone something can be an end in itself does not have mere relative worth, i.e., price, but an intrinsic worth, i.e., a dignity. (p. 53, italics in original)."
" In all creation every thing one chooses and over which one has any power, may be used merely as means; man alone, and with him every rational creature, is an end in himself." This is the reason for man's dignity!
"Therefore, "Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, always at the same time as an end and never merely as a means to an end."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant#The_second_formulation
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/ikcpr10.txt
Regards,
kikl
[...] The Clash of Islam and
[...] The Clash of Islam and Liberalism » Faith Freedom International [...]
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The entire non-Muslim worlds
The entire non-Muslim worlds are afraid of two things:
- A Book by the name of Al-Qur’an, which is made up of ink and paper!
- And a man by the name of Muhammad who is long dead!
No one seems to be afraid of the blood thirsty and racist book like Bible, or war manual Gita, or even Mein Kampf! No one is afraid of Hitler, Stalin, Bush, Atomic Bomb, etc. either! But they are afraid of Muhammad and the Qur’an! Isn’t the Qur’an the Greatest Miracle and Muhammad the Greatest Influential Personality for all times then?
Well Amim, could you give us
Well Amim, could you give us any reasons? What is Islam and why is it "the truth"?Don't tell me it's the truth because somebody else said so or because it's written in some book. Give me reasons!
Regards,
kikl
We're not afraid of the book,
We're not afraid of the book, we're afraid of the terrorist who use the book as a manual for killing. All that is proven is that Islam is a violent religion, which uses terror. If that's what you wanted to prove...
Regards,
kik
I cannot understand what a
I cannot understand what a hateful article like this is doing on this site. What a load of garbage!
Just to take one pitiful quoted example:
"Terrorism enhances social upward mobility and fosters the redistribution of wealth and resources from the haves to haves not."
I have better things to do with my life than to even bother to rebut the rest of this pile of culturally relativist crap.
[blockquote]Al-Qaida, despite
[blockquote]Al-Qaida, despite its ominous portrayal in the Western press - is no exception. It, too, will succumb, in due time, to the twin lures of power and money. Nihilistic and decentralized as it is - its express goals are the rule of Islam and equitable economic development. It is bound to get its way in some countries.[/blockquote]
Is al-qaida a group or an idealogy? it is more of like an idealogy whose followers co-operate amongst themselves but take lead from their father figures like bin laden and there is every reason to differentiate it from other "isms" particularly because it does not promise as many rewards here as it does in the hereafter.
"Conditions - such as poverty, ignorance, disease, oppression, and xenophobic superstitions - are difficult to change or to reverse."
These conditions have only marginal impact on creating terrrorists and as karl Marx had said.. religion is the opium of masses and since these islamic terrorists are on a high , it matters little to them whether they are rich or poor. Extremely rich muslims would not be joining these terror groups otherwise.
"Ideas are impossible to suppress. Already, militant Islam is far more widespread and established that any Western government would care to admit."
Yes ideas are impossible to supress and yes western governments may not admit it but people in west do realise the games that muslims play as well as the threat posed by islam to the free world. Similarly, apostasy in islam is growing and its suppression will become increasingly difficult as more and more people leave islam.
Yeah Wassim, the guy post
Yeah Wassim, the guy post (halalpork) was waaay beyond morals and norms. Fortunately the mod deleted it immediately otherwise it would have caused a stint in the forum. Also I suggest that the mod should be a bit more sensitive to detect posts that contain injectives.
Having said that I would love to respond to your gist #5: Not all muslims are misguided. I say all muslims are misguided. As far as I understand a muslim for the past fourteen centuries hs been the one who says " I testify that there is one God called allah and muhamad is his messenger". Now the purpose of this site is to tell people especially muslims that if there is God (considering that there are some atheists who do not beleive in any spiritual sorts), certainly would not have his muhammad as his prophet. I'm sure you have read all charges that Ali Sina and other pundits of this website bring forth against him. So on your part it could have been a lot meaningful to defend your prophet and not bring up these excuses like "halalpork", "not all muslim are bad", "catholics", etc.
By the way why are you a muslim? You will say because it teaches there is one God a concept that was absent in your part of the world prior to islam. Is islam the only one that teaches that? Forget Christianity and their trinity concept but Judaism says there is only one God.
"You can’t bring sanity in an insane world by attacking someone’s belief system which he has nurtured for years."
No one is attacking hindus or budhists or confucianism. Mainly attack on religion is done to those that claim to be the only true ones and seeks to proselytize people, Islam and Christianity. It happens that this site is for attacking Islam after identifying that if not attacked it will attack us through Jihad and limiting our freedom through sharia laws, precedent provided by countries like Iran and Somalia.
Congratulations AMIM, you
Congratulations AMIM, you have improved much.
Now I am reading your posts and pondering on them.
Cheers
Amim, " The entire non-Muslim
Amim,
"
The entire non-Muslim worlds are afraid of two things:
- A Book by the name of Al-Qur’an, which is made up of ink and paper!
- And a man by the name of Muhammad who is long dead!
"
You are wrong. People are afraid of the millions of muslims who think that the book is god's revelation and mohammad was his messenger. Book by itself does not cause harm. it is the people who follow that book which pose danger.
"No one seems to be afraid of the blood thirsty and racist book like Bible, or war manual Gita, or even Mein Kampf! No one is afraid of Hitler, Stalin, Bush, Atomic Bomb, etc. either!"
Do non-muslims prepare suicide bombers citing Gita/Bible? They don't. I guess you should blame your brethren for using islam and Koran for creating terrorists. Search any video hosting website and it is filled with muslims holding koran and preaching for jihad.
mein Kempf is infact banned in most of europe and Quran should be banned for the same reason.
"But they are afraid of Muhammad and the Qur’an! "
No, no one is afraid of muahmmad.. he is long dead. people are and should be wary of his preachings
"Isn’t the Qur’an the Greatest Miracle and Muhammad the Greatest Influential Personality for all times then?"
Can you please explain and subtantiate how?
3. Wasim Says: "All religions
3. Wasim Says:
"All religions are crap. I am a Pakistani Sindhi Muslim whose forefathers were Hindu Brahmins."
I am curious about something. If this is how you feel about all religions, then why are you so anxious to blindly defend Islam? Are you also not contradicting yourself here, just as Muhammad himself did in his Quran so many times and then he had the gall to claim it was from God?
Are you also not guilty of emotional attachment when it comes to Islam, even if your logic tells you it is all made up by the moolas?
Remember actions speak louder than words! All your fine words about Islam are undermined every time there is a brutal bombing of girls' schools or an unfortunate woman is raped and then savagely stoned to death for adultery or a young girl is strangled by her own parents and family because she doesn't want to wear a veil. The biggest crime to humanity is that the vast majority of your fellow Muslims remain indifferent about their fate. However, let there be even one petty insult to your religion and they take to the streets in their millions. Speaking about warped values!
All this and many other appalling crimes are done by Muslims every day today, in this day and age, because their religion Islam teaches them that these are not sins and is the will of your unmerciful Allah. They did not happen thousands of years ago, as you so love to point out happened in the Bible.
Hi A-PedoMime; I mean AMIM;
Hi A-PedoMime; I mean AMIM; Don't hold it against me . I am just an Infidel , but I like your logic.
" The entire non-Muslim worlds are afraid of two things:
- A Book by the name of Al-Qur’an, which is made up of ink and paper!
- And a man by the name of Muhammad who is long dead!"
I am afraid Baby as you said . Only recently I had a telephonic conversation with Allah The Dalla (Pimp) And the Pimp told me I have to be afraid of him (Allah Dalla) if I need the 72 virgins and the Islamic heaven.
Now tell me , how one can convert to Islam ?
Some Porkystany Mullahs like Jerk off Zakir Naik told me I just have to recite the following Sahada to become a Muslim.
"Lā ilaha ill al-Lāh Dalla, Muhammadun rasūlu l-ullāh Chode Pilla “. In English :There is no Pimp but Allah, Muhammad is the Pedophile Messenger of Allah who Sodomizes kids"..
You said --
"No one seems to be afraid of the blood thirsty and racist book like Bible, or war manual Gita, or even Mein Kampf! No one is afraid of Hitler, Stalin, Bush, Atomic Bomb, etc. either! But they are afraid of Muhammad and the Qur’an! Isn’t the Qur’an the Greatest Miracle and Muhammad the Greatest Influential Personality for all times then?""
I don't know about others but I am afraid of all the war manuals you have mentioned. Now be kind enough to tell me the E-Mail address of Allah Dalla. I want to forward your comments and the link to this site FFI. I am sure Allah Dalla will take care of Ali Sina and dispute him to win the $50,000, which I think will help him to buy few more recyclable virgin dolls for the Jihadi Muslims like you.
Not a bad deal I think.
Halalpork786, Your language
Halalpork786,
Your language clearly implies that you are a true follower of Krishna. Read the Gita and see what I am talking about. I would rather die than following your foul mouth God! That's it. Ok, sister? I am a circum man, btw.
Have nice pork-shiitt!
Amim, forget halalpork, you
Amim,
forget halalpork, you are yet to rebutt my answers to your posers... why are you sidestepping the main issue?
Your language clearly implies
HP is not a Hindu. Nowhere Krishna uses any bad word or incites war against unbeleivers unlike your quran. Gita is talking about performance of duties without selfishness by the rulers or Kings specifically in this context. You have difficulty in understanding what is taught in Gita.
Here are some verses from quran which shows how foul-mouthed your allah is. You foul mouthed allah calls unbelievers as cattle, monkeys etc. and talks explicitly about sxual organs of women.
So when they exceeded the limits of what they were prohibited, We said to them: "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected." (Al-A'raf 7:166)
And surely, We have created many of the jinns and mankind for Hell. They have hearts wherewith they understand not, they have eyes wherewith they see not, and they have ears wherewith they hear not (the truth). They are like cattle, nay even more astray; those! They are the heedless ones. (Al-A'raf 7:179)
Wherein both will be those (maidens) restraining their glances upon their husbands, whom no man or jinn yatmithhunna (has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse) before them. (Ar-Rahman 55:56)
Whom no man or jinn yatmithhunna (has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse) before them. (Ar-Rahman 55:74)
Filthy allah talks about May's private parts. Farjahā comes from the Arabic root "Farj" which means female genital organ, Vagina. Allah talks about Mary's...
And (remember) she who guarded her chastity (sexual organ)(Farjahā), We breathed into her (sexual organ) [through Our Rûh Jibrael (Gabriel)], and We made her and her son ['Iesa (Jesus)] a sign for Al-'Alamin (the mankind and jinns). (Al-Anbiya 21:91)
And maryam (mary), the daughter of 'Imrân who guarded her chastity (sexual organ)(Farjahā); and We breathed into it (sexual organ) through Our Rûh [i.e. Jibrael (Gabriel)], (At-Tahrim 66:12)
Ibn kathir Tafsir
tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=66&tid=54466
And Maryam, the daughter of `Imran who guarded her chastity (private part).
And We breathed into it (private part) through Our Ruh,
meaning, through the angel Jibril. Allah sent the angel Jibril to Maryam, and he came to her in the shape of a man in every respect. Allah commanded him to blow into a gap of her garment and that breath went into her womb through her private part; this is how `Isa was conceived.
Excellent article.
Excellent article.
AMIM at least now your
AMIM at least now your comments are short and not copied from other sites.
Do keep visiting some day you will be able to answer all of them.
I am surprised Dr. Sam is
I am surprised Dr. Sam is blaming West for Islamic attacks. Islamic terrorism is caused by its ideology and NOT any other reason. May be some mullahs use economic, political situations etc. to their advantage, but the main problem is totalitarian belief system of Islam that is in clash with other civilizations. This is bound to happen with any totalitarian and/or exclusive system/ideology, which Dr. Sam has pointed out too.
[...] The Clash of Islam and
[...] The Clash of Islam and Liberalism » Faith Freedom International [...]
continuum1 the Hindutva
continuum1 the Hindutva moron,
You have deceitfully inserted your own insane words into the passages of the Holy Qur'an that you have learned from your Gods. You liar and cheat. You deserve no response. I will show your ignorance or deceitfulness from Gita without any deception. Muslims do not have to distort other religious scriptures to make them look bad. Because they are already the worst!
This is for the ignorant
This is for the ignorant Hindutva moron continuum1!
Krishna’s extreme hatred and foul language against the unbelievers who do not worship him:
"The evil doers, the ignorant, the lowest persons who are attached to demonic nature, and whose power of discrimination has been taken away by divine illusive power (Maya) do not worship or seek Me." (Gita 7:15)
"The irrational, the faithless, and the disbeliever (atheist) perishes. There is neither this world, nor the world beyond, nor happiness for the disbeliever." (Gita 4:40)
"Whatever is done without faith - whether it is sacrifice, charity, austerity, or any other act - is useless. It has no value here or hereafter, O Arjuna." (Gita 17:28)
"The agent who is impassioned, attached to the fruits of their work, greedy, violent, impure, and is affected by joy and sorrow is called passionate. The undisciplined, vulgar, stubborn, wicked, malicious, lazy, depressed, and procrastinating agent is called ignorant." (Gita 18:27-28)
"There are only two types (or castes) of human beings in this world: The divine, or the wise (believer); and the demonic, or the ignorant (disbeliever). The divine has been described at length, now hear from Me about the demonic, O Arjuna. Persons of demonic nature do not know what to do and what not to do. They neither have purity nor good conduct nor truthfulness. They say: The world is unreal, without a substratum, without a God, and without an order. Sexual union of man and woman alone and nothing else causes the world. Adhering to this wrong atheist view, these degraded souls - with small intellect and cruel deeds - are born as enemies for the destruction of the world. Filled with insatiable desires, hypocrisy, pride, and arrogance; holding wrong views due to delusion; they act with impure motives. Obsessed with endless anxiety lasting until death, considering sense gratification their highest aim, convinced that sense pleasure is everything; Bound by hundreds of ties of desire and enslaved by lust and anger; they strive to obtain wealth by unlawful means for the fulfillment of sensual pleasures. They think: This has been gained by me today, I shall fulfill this desire, I have this much wealth, and will have more wealth in the future; That enemy has been slain by me, and I shall slay others also. I am the Lord. I am the enjoyer. I am successful, powerful, and happy; I am rich and born in a noble family. Who is equal to me? I shall perform sacrifice, I shall give charity, and I shall rejoice. Thus deluded by ignorance; Bewildered by many fancies; entangled in the net of delusion; addicted to the enjoyment of sensual pleasures; they fall into a foul hell. Self-conceited, stubborn, filled with pride and intoxication of wealth; they perform service only in name, for show, and not according to scriptural injunction. These malicious people cling to egoism, power, arrogance, lust, and anger; and hate Me who dwells in their own bodies and those of others. I hurl these haters, cruel, sinful, and mean people into the cycles of rebirth in the womb of demons again and again. O Arjuna, entering the wombs of demons birth after birth, the deluded ones sink to the lowest hell without ever attaining Me." (Gita 16:6-20)
Amim, where is the foul
Amim,
where is the foul language used... i don't see any words like go and kill them , descendents of apes and pigs
atleast read before you cut and paste you stupid idiot.. and by the way, this does not justify in any way existence of islam or why islam should not be destroyed..
How dumb can you pretend to be so as not to save your quran and islam.. i pity your thinking if you do any at all..
focussed, i thought you are
focussed,
i thought you are at least a worshipper of God. but you sound like a worshipper of Devil! who is that Devil, btw?
Amim, you really need to
Amim,
you really need to improve your reasoning skills. if there is no god, how can there be devil.
The reason you think that there is devil makes you to look for a saviour. and that is why people like you cannot even see the paedophile and rapist and murderer that mohammad was ..
don't you realize that devil was invented to invent god.. because if the devil does not exist, there is no need for the god either..
Well, I haven't met the devil
Well, I haven't met the devil personally. My hunch is that the devil is the imagined personification of everything that's evil. So, in order to recognize the devil, you must be able to tell right from wrong.
Now. most people - except maybe a few muslims - believe that lying is wrong. Therefore, a common synonym among non-muslims for the devil is the great deceiver.
Who is the great deceiver? The quoran tells you. Read Sura 3, verses 54 and Sura 8, verse 30.
Regards,
kikl
focussed, there needs a true
focussed,
there needs a true God to punish your devil god who raped 16,000 women. understood, sister?
Amim, you have utterly failed
Amim,
you have utterly failed to justify the existence of allah and therefore it is time you give up the cult called islam .. that will save you a lot of agony..
prove allah exists and i will accept islam.. if you can't you must give up islam and piss on that unholy terror manual called koran
focussed Says: [where is the
focussed Says:
[where is the foul language used… i don’t see any words like go and kill them, descendents of apes and pigs]
It's not considered as foul language to kill the terrorists and killers. It's not considered as foul language either to call apes and pigs by their names! Do you want us to call you a rabid dog instead?
No AMIM, we Humans must make
No AMIM, we Humans must make sure that there is justice in this world. At least you do recognize that rape is evil.
Mohammed, the supposed messenger of Allah, enslaved and raped women. So don't expect any justice from him and his ill conceived fictional novel called the koran.
Regards,
kikl
continuum1 the Hindutva
Did you learn that language from your allah. After all allah calls all unbelievers as cattle and allows muslims to rape infdel women and own them as sex sllaves as killing their men.
I have NOT inserted any word there....Infact I copied from your Islamic websites. You can check for yourselves.
thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=vs&display=20&surah=55&start=41
Wherein both will be those (maidens) restraining their glances upon their husbands, whom no man or jinn yatmithhunna (has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse) before them. (Ar-Rahman 55:56)
thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=vs&display=20&surah=55&start=61
Whom no man or jinn yatmithhunna (has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse) before them. (Ar-Rahman 55:74)
Also check Ibn Kathir's tafsir with the link which shows that farhahA means vagina.
LOL.... You are full of shit.
there needs a true God to
Why do you keep lying AMIM ? There is no such rape at all anywhere in Hindu scriptures.
However, if you are so keen that rape is wrong you should see your filthy quran or perhaps your more filthy Sahih Hadiths. Even your prophet owned sex slaves..
thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=vs&display=20&surah=33&start=41
O Prophet (Muhammad SAW)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those (captives or slaves) whom your right hand possesses - whom Allâh has given to you, (Al-Ahzab 33:50)
thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=vs&display=20&surah=70&start=21
Except with their wives and the (women slaves and captives) whom their right hands possess, for (then) they are not to be blamed, (Al-Ma'arij 70:30)
usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/008.smt.html
Sahih Muslim: Chapter 22: AL AZL (INCOMPLETE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE): COITUS INTERRUPTUS
Book 008, Number 3371:
Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): 0 Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Mes- senger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.
Ok people...give him some
Ok people...give him some room now...
i know that you are eager but don't gang up on him....
fight fair now people, fight fair..hear?
Brother Ibrahim, howz things
Brother Ibrahim, howz things going in Kashmir. You had mentioned that you would be sharing with us your horrific experiences of the Jihad in Kashmir. We are eagerly waiting to hear your story.
[...]
[...] http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/02/06/the-clash-of-islam-and-liberalism/ Islam is not merely a religion. It is also - and perhaps, foremost - a state ideology. It is all-pervasive and missionary. It permeates every aspect of social cooperation and culture. It is an organizing principle, a narrative, a philosophy, a value system, and a vade mecum. In this it resembles Confucianism and, to some extent, Hinduism. [...]
who ever is badmouthing
who ever is badmouthing Bhagwat Gita....is suffering from ignorance.....16000 women that you guys keep talking about were the rishis who through their prayers and austerities had requested Lord Vishnu to allow them to contribute and be liberated( moksha) by Lord Krishna( the 9th incarnation). There is no mention of any physcial intimacy between them....
Please do some research before leaving any comments , especially when it is with respect to a BELIEF...because its a very sensitive and a fragile issue...
I can understand how you muslims might feel , when kuran is abused...but instead of irrational thinking or playing the blaming game...try and do something resourcful for a change....if you can disprove what acqusations that anyone has against koran , then do it with proof and without prejudice...and if you cant then educate and liberate yourself....dont live in pain forever....
Jai Sri krishna