Beating up Women for Allah

If the women remain in Islam maybe they are STUPID and a bad omen Hadith 9:162,3 Tabari 1:280

hmmmmm.....does this bring on a new perspective or what? lol We have two Muslim regulars who claim Islam does not sanction wife beating, rape and worse yet...they value and honor women more than any other religion. Perhaps they themselves do not commit any of these barbaric crimes, but they follow a prophet who did and so many others who have followed in his footsteps....so....Muslim regulars...what have you to say to this........!!!

Muslims use women to set examples because they do not know how to pick on anyone their own sizes! Why don't you punish men as equally for committing the same crimes? Find me an article or a verse in the Koran that says men are stoned if they commit adultery, have premarrital sex, mingle with men outside their family, etc and I'll keep my mouth shut and my keys on permanent lock! Lashes don't equal to being put to death!

Find me a Muslim male who believes that a man can be as much of a whore as a woman.

Find me a Muslim woman who will not be put to death for leaving Islam in a country like Saudi!

Find me a Muslim male who has been "honored killed" for putting his family to shame by committing such an act as premarrital sex!

Great reaction, Megha, thank you! Both here and in the other thread (Awaken to truth).

You were referring there to an Afghan who had converted to Christianity, was threathened with death, in Afgh. 2007, I believe. And eventually was given asylum in Italy. Ibn Kammuna, in a debate about apostasy, showed LS a video in which it was shown that in Saudi Arabia a girl was executed because she converted to Christianity and would not give it up. I remember LS brushed it off by saying that senseless killings happen everywhere. In Iran there are even now 2 girls in jail for having converted to Christianity. Top of the iceberg, we think.

Kabirlaw and LondonSpirit, in a good democratic society, in which Muslims by and large also behave impeccably democratic, your explanations make much sense. But in the past, when these rules were implemented, in the societies where they were implemented, men were very dominant over women, everywhere. And Muslims, being militarily superior, became ever more dominant over other religions, such as Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism. But no attempt was made by Muslims to guarantee equal marital rights for the underlying religions. And still not today in most Islamic countries. Now we know this, we more and more demand justice, balance, equality in these societies, as we have them in the Democratic countries.

And now bring the conversion-component into play. In a country where Islam is dominant, it is OK for Christians/ Jews/ Hindus to become Muslims but absolutely unacceptable that Muslims become Christians/ Hindus. That’s the first great injustice in such societies. Under those circumstances it is also ruled that Muslim men can take wives from Christian/ Hindu, no doubt converting these women, because of male dominance over female. But in such societies it would be blasphemous for a Christian/ Jewish/ Hindu man to even consider marrying a Muslimah. And the idea that that would be OK if only the Muslimah stepped out of Islam is again totally unacceptable by the vast majority of Muslim men in such societies.

These are other injustices, imbalances among religions, we feel. In the long run some religions just must give the other religions their fair share of influence, rights, space, power, we feel. The same for women versus men. Kabirlaw is very good in carefully pointing out the differences in anatomy, character, mother&fatherhood of men and women, but frankly, after the enlightenment, many of us Westerners just prefer simple autonomy for women, to let them be their own boss.

In the end, it always boils down to LS and Kabirlaw explaining and defending the interpretations of Islam in a way that makes it look fair, reasonable, even beautiful. But then we see the other interpretations of Islam in countries where Islam has majority and power and we see a different picture.

So FFI reports this and deduces the role of Islam in it. Then Muslims like LS and Kabirlaw vehemently defend their interpretation of Islam, but the real cause of the criticism in the FFI-articles is the different mainstream interpretation. So that is what makes Islam look bad, not the mere observing or commenting on it by FFI. So that is the issue that really should be addressed, by Muslims themselves!

And yes, Muslims are welcome to point out all the relevant faults and shortcomings of other religions/ society-organizing ways, but Islam is just again shown not to be an improvement on them, which is enough to be shown for me.

Demsci,

WOW! Well said....I honestly could not have said it any better myself! You're a gem to humanity!

I see light at the end of the tunnel.

To Megha

You said:

hmmmmm…..does this bring on a new perspective or what? lol We have two Muslim regulars who claim Islam does not sanction wife beating, rape and worse yet…they value and honor women more than any other religion. Perhaps they themselves do not commit any of these barbaric crimes, but they follow a prophet who did and so many others who have followed in his footsteps….so….Muslim regulars…what have you to say to this……..!!!

I say:

(1) The article does mention WHY they were flogged, so we cannot really come to any conclusion on this can we. For all we know it could be something totally unrelated, I say, could be.
(2) The article is not talking about wife beating but punishments handed out to them by the State (Not their husbands)
(3) There is no rape mentioned in the article, so try that one on another occasion.
(4) There is punishment for pre-marital sex for both males and females in Islam and so this legislation is not gender discriminatory. Therefore the premise of your argument here is false
(5) Crime happens everywhere and punishments take place everywhere. Muslim countries nowadays are not the epitome of the of the Islamic system. Almost ALL muslim countries do not adhere to the notion of a pure Islamic State. None. Saudi Arabia is far from being an Islamic State as it has an absolute monarchy and Monarchies and Kingdoms are Illegal in Islam. So when you use these countries as examples you are missing the mark by miles.

You then said:

Muslims use women to set examples because they do not know how to pick on anyone their own sizes!

I say:

I think picking on the whole of the Roman empire, Byzantium empire and the Persian empire by a group of desert Arabs was pretty brave of them!

You then say:

Why don’t you punish men as equally for committing the same crimes? Find me an article or a verse in the Koran that says men are stoned if they commit adultery, have premarrital sex, mingle with men outside their family, etc and I’ll keep my mouth shut and my keys on permanent lock! Lashes don’t equal to being put to death!

I say:

If you are a sincere and honourable person you better stick by what you said here and shut your mouth in future. Your question is basically equality in punishment for the same crimes for men and women in Islam. the question of whether stoning to death is in the quran or not is irrelevant because it is in Authentic hadith and so is indeed a precribed punishment in islam. Here I go:

(The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.) (An-Nur 24: 2).

and:

The most accepted collection of Hadith Sahih al Bukhari has 4 entries under 3829, 8804, 8805 and 8824 which refer to stoning by death. The case under 4829 involved Jews who were stoned to death in accordance with the Law of the Torah. 8805 says: "A married man from the tribe of Bani Aslam who had committed illegal sexual intercourse and bore witnesses four times against himself was ordered by the Prophet (s.a.s.) to be stoned to death". 8804 and 8824 overlap each other. I dont know what happened to the lady, I think she might of got off because she did not admit it like the man did.

Therefore, it is crystal clear that the punishments that apply in Islam are the same for both men and women. Now lets see if you will shut your trap or not like you promised.

You then said:

Find me a Muslim male who believes that a man can be as much of a whore as a woman.

I say:

Forget Muslims! Allah and the Prophet are telling you that men are to be punished equally for being whores, as you so eloquently put it. Megha, baby, the punishment IS THE SAME FOR BOTH GIRL AND BOY.

You then retorted:

Find me a Muslim woman who will not be put to death for leaving Islam in a country like Saudi!

I say:

We need to ask the Saudi Government. What does that have to do with the other 1.45 billion Muslims. Also, see above about Saudi Monarchy.

You then retorted:

Find me a Muslim male who has been “honored killed” for putting his family to shame by committing such an act as premarrital sex!

I say:

Megha, I'm not fighting with you, but seriously you are being very childish and ridiculous. Honour killings happen in a lot of places. They happened before the advent of Islam. They happen in predominantly Hindu India. There is no such thing as an honour killing in Islam because the punishment for pre-marital sex (as I have shown you above) is 100 lashes for both men and women (Not an honour killing).

Honour killing is culturally ingrained in the people that do it. The cruel truth is that these families find it less shameful for the men of their families to have engaged in pre-marital sex than their women. What does Islam have to do with that. We are not debating culture, traditions and mindsets of people in different parts of ther world, we are debating the religion of Islam. And Islam is telling you that if a woman has pre-marital sex she should be lashed 100 times and if a man has pre-marital sex he also should be lashed 100 times.

If a woman has sex with another man whilst she is married she should be stoned to death and if a man has sex with another woman whilst he is married he should be stoned to death (BUT, and thats a big BUT, the trial should be conducted in line with Islamic Justice which requires there to be 4 adult sane witnesses who have actually witnessed the physical act of penetration (So the chance of them being convicted of the offence if it is denied is next to nothing). Moreover, adultery and fornication happen in Islamic countries as well and people ARE indeed getting off scot free because of the high standard of proof required.

I'm looking forward to silence from you now. Take care babes.

The likes of kabirlaw and LS are what married off beauty to the beast, good people turned bad because alternative interpretations were there to lessen the barbarism in Islam, in Afghanistan, the Taliban gave Islam its true picture this made even the muslims flinch at the mention of that regime, a muslim society where sugar-coating is the norm could hardly understand its own bondage.

Keeping the average muslim half-informed is a sure way of maintaing the number, when Islam conquered new lands it went with the promises of mercy and equity, this generates a form of stockholm syndrome to the conquered and subjugated population.

They infuse the 'religion of peace' line till it permanently becomes a subconscience, they ridicule the position of an unmarried woman in the umma till she becomes ready to accept an abusive husband as 'the god's chosen one'

The whole Islamic concept is one big divorce from reason, the placebo effect is taken as an answer to a prayer, the aesthetic side of nature becomes a premeditated symbol of Allah's existence, honor for Allah oftenly take the place of real love for children from their parents, sometimes it is hard to grasp the fact that Islam coexists with the current freedom loving and technologically advanced biosphere we all live in.

My advice to muslims is to get off their butts and knees and work hard to better their not too appealing habitats, as the saying goes 'whoever keeps praying without working, will be playing without knowing'

Kabirlaw why lie.
allah is the greatest liar deceiver and schemer and planner to lie deceive and scheme Sura 3:54.
4 witnesses to see a rape. If 4 men saw a rape why not stop it. How insane! allah is insane!
Sura 4:34 said men can BEAT women but can women beat men. Even gay MEN are forgiven but gay women are killed sura 4:15,16.

If a Christian killed it is wrong, so why try to compare killings. Both are wrong. Everytime a Muslims says something they either blame a JEW or a Christian. Why cant Muslims take responsibility for their own mess.

Kabirlaw said:
“(5) Crime happens everywhere and punishments take place everywhere. Muslim countries nowadays are not the epitome of the of the Islamic system. Almost ALL muslim countries do not adhere to the notion of a pure Islamic State. None. Saudi Arabia is far from being an Islamic State as it has an absolute monarchy and Monarchies and Kingdoms are Illegal in Islam. So when you use these countries as examples you are missing the mark by miles.”

May I point out to you, Kabirlaw, that we get all these articles about behavior of Muslims in countries where they have majority and power. One would think that there eventually the true result of the Islamic faith would be shown.

So much of criticism on Islam, which you abhor, comes about because of what we see Muslims practice in these countries, especially the Muslims in power. Or the ones that have the majority-upper hand and unjust more rights than minorities etc.

Now I hardly dare ask you, but what about people like you and LS every now and then siding with us against these Muslims that
I. Have too much power, because they let the followers of other beliefs have too less.
II. Who abuse that power, even according to your interpretation of Islam, which you inform us of so well. Well, there seem to be plenty of other interpretations believed and practiced.

Please side with us:
I. For NATO against Taliban.
II. For the demonstrators against the oppressors in Iran.
III. For the apostates in Islamic countries against those who imprison or kill or threathen them. Because YOU maintain “There is no compulsion in Religion” but they don’t.
IV. Even support the GOAL of democracy in Islamic countries somewhere in the 21st century. Because that would give the followers of other beliefs equal rights to Muslims there, and that is only fair.
Furthermore; MUST Islam depend on force? Look at Turkey, Islam is doing so well there, but it relies on democracy there.

If you were WITH us on those 4 points, then your words would gain so much more credibility, I believe.

Kabirlaw.

What a discouraging waste of energy you just spouted off above, first off megha knows the rules of the game, your invisible friend Allah is too hypothetical to be a law giver, her premise is that all those laws are nothing but some illitrate society's masochistic approach to justice, whether saudi is a monarchy or sharia the point is 'they apply the sanctioned laws from the quran' the sudan case of beating up women because of wearing trousers has Islamic obtuse morality in it, if you disfavor the 'misconception of Islam' by the majority of muslims go to Afghanistan's Taliban strong hold and have a go at it, all you do is talk off fallacies from existential to shameless equivocations, as a mature individual you should refrain from juvenile exuberance, how can you be confident of truth where evidence of it is severely lacking?

The first baby step you should take is by putting your right foot on a concrete piece of evidence, failing to do that will be a tough act to follow! You desire to morphe the women beating, right hand possession, ghildat, killing and all-humanity reject verses but you can't, all you do here is letting us know that you are some of togue-twister who is struggling to master his lack of talent.

Prove Islam is true then we can move on to differentiating state laws, sharia laws, monachical laws and even kabirlaws, put up or shut up otherwise we will put you on the 'robotic parrot' list, the brain is a terrible thing to waste.

Kabir men get as many wives as they want so they cannot commit fornication or adultery.

Muslim men can sex a temp wife for an hour not WOMEN but only men. Islam is not fair. Men get 72 big breasted women and 28 white boys in paradise women get nothing so quran written by allah the liar said. You know I's right and you know allah said so. How sick and insane and downright crazy.

To: Busted

You said:

What a discouraging waste of energy you just spouted off above, first off megha knows the rules of the game, your invisible friend Allah is too hypothetical to be a law giver, her premise is that all those laws are nothing but some illitrate society’s masochistic approach to justice, whether saudi is a monarchy or sharia the point is ‘they apply the sanctioned laws from the quran’ the sudan case of beating up women because of wearing trousers has Islamic obtuse morality in it, if you disfavor the ‘misconception of Islam’ by the majority of muslims go to Afghanistan’s Taliban strong hold and have a go at it, all you do is talk off fallacies from existential to shameless equivocations, as a mature individual you should refrain from juvenile exuberance, how can you be confident of truth where evidence of it is severely lacking?

I say:

rant, rant and more rant. Megha put forward a challenge (a challenge you, Demsci and others were championing). I demolished that challenge very simply and clearly and instead of comforting megha you go off on a tangeant for all to see above. My response was not shameless, your reply to my response was!

You then said:

The first baby step you should take is by putting your right foot on a concrete piece of evidence, failing to do that will be a tough act to follow! You desire to morphe the women beating, right hand possession, ghildat, killing and all-humanity reject verses but you can’t, all you do here is letting us know that you are some of togue-twister who is struggling to master his lack of talent.

I say: "Tongue twister who is struggling to master his lack of talent." Have you been talking to my girlfriend? Damn, I thought she told me my french kissing was pretty phenomenal, we need to talk!

You then said:

Prove Islam is true then we can move on to differentiating state laws, sharia laws, monachical laws and even kabirlaws, put up or shut up otherwise we will put you on the ‘robotic parrot’ list, the brain is a terrible thing to waste.

I say: The brain is a terrible thing to waste. Amen.

Busted, Kabirlaw said absolutely nothing.

"Eltahaway sensibly asks, where is the outrage?"

Where is the outrage for Rifqa Bary who ran away from her father and is now fighting to keep away from him for fear that he will kill her because she is an apostate and a Christian convert?

So far the American media has been silent.

Thank you, BustedDivinity!

I am keeping my promise as I said I would, but you Kabirlaw have proven to be nothing more than a Muslim sexist pig like your pedo Mo prophet and pimp Allah! You intimidate women....I'm not your baby/babes...I might be a khaphir, but I'm sure as hell not yours for the taking.....you will see that more and more you'll prove yourself to be the big hypocrite! Goodbye!

You know what....I changed my mind! Ok, KL....maybe your hadith says women and men should get equal punishment, but they don't! I read a book by Jean Sasson telling a true story of a Saudi princess.....she stated that her own brother, a prince raped an 8-year-old girl! One of her friends was sentenced to death by drowning because she had relations with different men....did the men become punished...no...mainly because they were foreigners and were no where to be found...another friend was punished by being put into a dark small room by her uncle...the family swore once the uncle died (as her parents were already dead)...they would let her out.

In Jordan, Egypt, Saudi, Turkey there are "honor" killings and it is funny that all these victims are women....

When I left that sorry bastard of a husband...I made a vow I would help women and educate them on the evils of Islam....this promise means more to me than my silly challenge to you.....I would not be an hornorable and sincere if I allow women to go on believing Islam is for them.....as far as I'm concerned...this challenge is void anyway because even you Muslims do not stick to your Koran and hadith....everyone knows women are not equal fairly in Islam...koran and hadith alike so sorry...you will not be blessed with my silence.....women throughout history have suffered through enough intimidation...especially by you Muslim pigs!

My duty and honor is towards humanity...not you...you don't bother honoring anyone or respecting anyone elses beliefs....there is no tolerance in you! Sorry you will not get what you want like you are used to...promise or no promise!

Oh my god not another post on woman rights and islam. Megha you seemed to have side tracked from the previous post of the awakening and now have joined this post. You didnt answer a single question that I posed to you. Actually sorry, you did make an attempt which got everyone excited but that attempt was in relation to india's law and how they want to improve on the old laws of india, which wasd gathered from your gita.

Lets bring this discussion completely to an end.

Yes woman are classed differently to men in most asian countries, including china and india which have majority of buddists and hindus. These two countries alone contribute to over 2 billion of the 6 billion worldwide populations and it is in these two nations that have the most abusiveness to womans rights.

Lets look at U.N statistics:

The Los Angeles Times [in The Toronto Star, February 28, 1994.]) According to census statistics, "From 972 females for every 1,000 males in 1901 ... the gender imbalance has tilted to 929 females per 1,000 males. ... In the nearly 300 poor hamlets of the Usilampatti area of Tamil Nadu [state], as many as 196 girls died under suspicious circumstances [in 1993] ... Some were fed dry, unhulled rice that punctured their windpipes, or were made to swallow poisonous powdered fertilizer. Others were smothered with a wet towel, strangled or allowed to starve to death."

Dahlburg notes that "In Jaipur, capital of the western state of Rajasthan, prenatal sex determination tests result in an estimated 3,500 abortions of female fetuses annually," according to a medical-college study. (Dahlburg, "Where killing baby girls 'is no big sin'.") Most strikingly, according to UNICEF, "A report from Bombay in 1984 on abortions after prenatal sex determination stated that 7,999 out of 8,000 of the aborted fetuses were females. Sex determination has become a lucrative business." (Zeng Yi et al., "Causes and Implications of the Recent Increase in the Reported Sex Ratio at Birth in China," Population and Development Review, 19: 2 [June 1993], p. 297.)

Now look at these statistics. These are hindus and buddists commiting the crime. And the worst thing is that they think they are doing a good job. All these gals killed and you think islam treats woman badly.

Anyway before we look at verses from different religious scriptures lets look at some muslim nations abusing their power.

In afganistan recently it has become a law that men are allowed to starve their wife if she refuses to give sex. Now where in the quran would you find such a law. This is not islam it is abusing power.

In all countries you get womans being abused. UK and AMERICA again not a muslim nation has the following number of wife beating. Again these are statistics

A woman is beaten every 15 seconds by her partner; it happens at some time in 25-35 % of American homes; 4,000 women die from such abuse each year. (FBI)

Physical abuse by male social partners is the single most common source of injury among women ages 15 to 44, more common than auto accidents, muggings and rape by a stranger combined. (U.S. Surgeon General, 1989)

Approximately one-third of the men counseled (for battering) at Emerge are professional men who are well respected in their jobs and their communities. these have included doctors, psychologists, lawyers, ministers, and business executives. (For Shelter and Beyond, Massachusetts Coalition of Battered Women Service Groups, Boston, MA 1990)

These are shocking statistics. In America every 15 seconds a woman gets beaten. Sor far its taken me 5 minutes to write this post. In this time 20 ladies in america have been beaten by their partner. And your telling me ISLAM teaches violence and beating against their partner. You seem to focus your attention on one case from a islamic nation, but If i was to focus on wife beating in america I would have to employ 1000 people to keep up with the sheer volume of reports. And obviously these statistics are only taken to be the ones that are reported. What about the abuses that aint reported.

A seperate statistics say that these results only account to 16% of the total number of abuses. And you have the mouth to say that ISLAM promotes wife beating when it is in your back yards.

ISLAM gives the solution to wife beating from the following verse:

[4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.

Here there is 3 stages. The first stage is communication. THAN NEGLET and in last resort beat. But in most cases the matter should be resolved within the first two stages. You may think it says well it still says beat, but again I say at least islam gives prefrences and options before you undergo such an act unlike what we see in the modern day where anger leads to wife beating on the first occassion.

The next verse shows the love for your wife should be adhered to:

[ 30:21] Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think.

So who says islam teaches about beating wife.

Finally the neext verse says the following:

[3:195 ]"Their Lord responded to them: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you MALE OR FEMALE, YOU ARE EQUAL TO ONE ANOTHER........."

WOW now how would you get such a powerful statement from the so called devils book. WOMAN AND MEN ARE EQUAL. WOW mind blowing. I aint saying this. No other muslim is saying this. But the quran is saying this

Bring me any scripture of the world that posses such a powerful statement.

Now we go to rights of a woman

[4:19] O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit what the women leave behind, against their will. You shall not force them to give up anything you had given them, unless they commit a proven adultery. You shall treat them nicely. If you dislike them, you may dislike something wherein GOD has placed a lot of good.

[2:229] Divorce may be retracted twice. The divorced woman shall be allowed to live in the same home amicably, or leave it amicably. It is not lawful for the husband to take back anything he had given her. However, the couple may fear that they may transgress GOD's law. If there is fear that they may transgress GOD's law, they commit no error if the wife willingly gives back whatever she chooses. These are GOD's laws; do not transgress them. Those who transgress GOD's laws are the unjust.

Beautiful, Allah gives rights to the woman and allows her to freely make her own choices.

Now i have presented this. I ask anyone to bring me from any religious scripture in the world that has any comparison to the quranic words. I ask any of you people to bring me a verse fro mthe quran that shows that woman should be beaten .To this day no one, not even ali sina is able to bring a verse from the quran that allows beating of the spouse.

Meet my challenge. OR SHUT YOUR MOUTH

Londonspirit man you are sick. In America men go to jail. sure we have wife beatings and murder And etc, but NONE ARE sanctioned by god. Muslims do the same and are holy by allah's words.

INFIDELS HAVE NO SANCTIONS BY GOD
MUSLIMS ARE PURE AND HOLY FOR DOING THE SAME CRAP

MUSLIM MEN MARRY 4 WIVES TO STOP FORNICATION AND ADULTERY
AND THEN SEX SLAVE GIRLS WHO ARE NOT HUMAN BUT PROPERTY AND SLAVE MEN TOO. iNSANE ISLAMIC MEN AND stupid WOMEN tABARI 1:280 EVIL IS A BETTER WORD AND LS YOU ARE AS EVIL AS THE TALIBAN WHO JUST CUT OFF THE LIMBS OF SHIA IN PAKISTAN. SEE BARE NAKE ISLAM FOR PICTURES.

LS YOU ARE AS MUCH A LIAR AS ALLAH. SURA 4:34 SAYS BEAT WOMEN AND SEX MUTA MIYAR WIVES OR FOR AN HOUR. WHORES IN IRAN DO MUTA.

OMG!

LS I AM STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO RESPOND TO MY LAST ACCUSATION. YOU HAVE UNTIL TOMORROW TO RESPOND OR ELSE I AM ENDING THE DEBATE AND TURNING MY ACCUSATIONS ALONG WITH YOUR RESPONSES INTO AN ARTICLE TO BE POSTED HERE ALONG WITH MY COMMENTARY.

"I’m looking forward to silence from you now. Take care babes."

Kebir..kebir.. Never respond to my questions and challenge and here you are, poping out like a mole, pathetic. How many times i have silenced your big mouth eh, kebir? Do that first before boasting like usual.

To londonspiritous liar, you too didn't respond to my question about pedo mo as a comforter. Shut your mouth if you can't do it. Boasting as usual without any concrete proof.

Megha,

"We have two Muslim regulars who claim Islam does not sanction wife beating, rape and worse yet…they value and honor women more than any other religion."

Do you mean those two big mouth liars? Don't bother, reality speak itself. In advanced and democratic country wife beating, rape, etc is illegal and punished by law, but in islamic countries wife beating and rape (kafir woman) is perfectly legal or HALAL.

Raisinhead,

"Busted, Kabirlaw said absolutely nothing."

You took that long to know that? From the very start he showed up in this site, he had proved nothing. No need to surprise.

"You know what….I changed my mind! Ok, KL….maybe your hadith says women and men should get equal punishment,"

Megha, let me give you an information: in islam man and woman are treated differently (man ruled over woman) but when comes to punishment, suddenly they become same! May i remind you that woman have all the disadvantages than man in islamic law including if a crime happened. It's like a parable: i keep the good things for myself but i share my suffering with you. Here is one example: an indonesian worker raped by arab muslim, then the victim couldn't prove anything and there were no witnesess also, so guess what happened next. Sharia court flogged the victim 80 times for adultery and the culprit escaped. Woman always at disadvantage. So don't bother with those two big mouth liars, i knew what kind of human they are from the very start, so i never give respect to them. Muslim can't fool me, i have seen many like them. Reality speak itself.

Moooo,

Yes, I'm talking about the liars, but you are right. My question to these two is why don't these Islamic countries go strictly by the Koran instead of imposing even more inhumane laws!?! If they want to downsize India's laws vs. Hinduism, they need to take a look at their own religion and laws of Islamic nations! They're no better than India if that is the case....dumb asses! Pardon my language

How did you come up with that name? It is definitely different? Not trying to get off topic.

I sometimes have flashback and nightmares about my ex and experience....Kabirlaw caused me to have a flashback and remember the pain and intimidation again, but I snapped out of it....sometimes when that happens, I forget I'm no longer under his power....I'm sure many women who were blessed to get out of the evil clutches of husbands like this go through the same thing. My heart goes out to them!

Yeah....funny the punishment is always the same....but it is not imposed by law....ppsssshhhh

LS...yes, I did respond to your post in the "Awakened" article....perhaps they did not arrive until the article was no longer on the "recent posts" list, but they are there...view them and happy reading!

KL....I don't get it....you seem at times so kind and sincere....it is a shame we disagree....but nonetheless...I blieve you followed the teachings of a mad man.....It is nothing personal towards you just as I'm sure the fact that you do not believe as I do is anything personal towards me, but point blank....most members on this site disagree with you....I'm not the only one.....perhaps my emotions are still high as I have said, but....no one here blames me just as I don't blame them!

The point is...the koran clearly states that wife beating is sanctioned...even if it is a last resort....as I stated...it should not be any resort!

Marie....way to go girl...I like your style!

Comment deleted due to filthy language

MARIE i do not wish to answer your question, not that I cant becasue I have the answer ready for you. But I am waiting for you to answer my single question. Where have you heard about a debate whereby I spend time to answer all your questions but you cant spend a single moment to answer a single one of my question.

So dont give me OMG, because I have answered 7 of your questions, and I am still waiting for you to answer My one single question. Answer the one and than I will answer your last accusation.

RASINHEAD your just a waste. I told you many times dont reply to my posts. So far none of you have even attempted to answer my post on august 20th 2009. I will be waiting for anyone to give me a verse that say to beat woman if they dont give you sex, and I will be waiting for any single person to provide a single verse from the scripture that comes even anywhere in comparison to what the quran says.

MEGHA: I did see that post. you tld me to look at the website that contains two verses. OK lets assume that the hindu scriptures have two such verses, I will now produced many verses that goes against woman

INDEPENDENCE OF WOMAN

Her father protects (her) in childhood, her husband protects (her) in youth, and her sons protect (her) in old age; a woman is never fit for independence. Manusmriti 9.3

Well this just shows that woman have no independence

"Tasmat striyam jatam parasyanti ut pumamsam haranti"(Hence they reject a female child when born, and take up a male.) [Taitt. Samh. VI.5.10.3] [Muir I 26]

"A man, aged thirty years, shall marry a maiden of twelve who pleases him, or a man of twenty-four a girl of eight years of age; if (the performance of) his duties would otherwise be impeded, he must marry sooner."[Manu IX.94]

Aryan husbands cut off the ears and nose of their wives if they left the house without their prior permission. The Pancatantra mentions one such story [Pancatantra p.54, I.7th story "The Weaver’s Wife"]. The weaver cut off his wife’s nose because she did not respond and he considered her unfaithful. (actually he cut off the barber’s wife’s nose who was there instead.) The Ramayana and Lord Rama practiced the cutting off of womens’ noses for minor offences, thereby providing divine sanction for the custom. Shurpanakha was a Dravidian lady ( referred to as Rakshis or female demons by the Aryans) who fell in love with Rama. She proposed to him, but he directed her to his brother Laxman. He cut off her ears and nose for this crime, and Ram condoned this act. [Alld Chmbrs 1036]

"When a woman, proud of her relations [or abilities] deceives her husband ( with another man), then the king should [ensure that] she be torn apart by dogs in place much frequented by people"[Manu Smrti 8:371] "And the evil man should be burnt in a bed of red-hot iron"[Manu Smrti 8:371-2]

VIII.371. "If a wife, proud of the greatness of her relatives or (her own) excellence, violates the duty which she owes to her lord, the king shall cause her to be devoured by dogs in a place frequented by many. VIII.372. Let him cause the male offender to be burnt on a red-hot iron bed; they shall put logs under it, (until) the sinner is burned (to death)."[Manu Smrti Buhler VIII 371-372]

A wife, a son, and a slave, these three are declared to have no property; the wealth which they earn is (acquired) for him to whom they belong. A Brahmana may confidently seize the goods of (his) Sudra (slave); for, as that (slave) can have no property, his master may take his possessions. [Manu VIII.416-417]

"whilst her husband is absent, she shall sleep with one of her female relatives and not alone"[Vasishta’s Padma Purana]

LIFE OF WOMAN AFTER HUSBANDS DEATH

"If a woman’s husband dies, let her lead a life of chastity, or else mount his pyre"[Vishnusmrti xxv.14] [Clayton 13]

"It is the highest duty of the woman to immolate herself after her husband,"[Br.P. 80.75] [Sheth 103]

Some serious things here. And it is also custom according to the rig veda, puranas and also practicsed by krishna to do widow burning(sati)

The most sacred of Aryan scriptures are the Vedas, and the Rig Veda, the oldest veda, explicitly sanctions the custom of sati. The following famous `Sati Hymn' of the Rig Veda was (and still is) recited during the actual immolation of the widow [ Kane 199-200 ]: -

Rig Veda X.18.7 : " Let these women, whose husbands are worthy and are living, enter the house with ghee (applied) as corrylium ( to their eyes). Let these wives first step into the pyre, tearless without any affliction and well adorned."

-- [ Rig Veda X.18.7 ] [ Kane 199-200 ]

Several of Krishna's wives performed sati upon his death, including Rukmini, Rohini, Devaki, Bhadraa and Madura [ Mah.Bhar. Mausalaparvan 7.18 ] [ Alld, p.977, 1018-1019: Rukmini ]
* Madri, second wife of Pandu, considered an incarnation of the goddess Dhriti, performed sati [ Mah.Bhar. Adiparvan 95.65 ] [ Alld, p.985 ]
* Rohini, a wife of Vasudev, Krishna's father, who gave birth to Balram ( Devki's child ), later became a sati. [ Alld.1018 ] The Vishnu Purana refers to this mass burning of Krishna's wives :

Vishnu Purana.V.38 : " The 8 queens of Krishna, who have been named, with Rukmini at their head, embraced the body of Hari, and entered the funeral fire. Revati also embracing the corpse of Rama, entered the blazing pile, which was cool to her, happy in contact with her lord. Hearing these events, Ugrasena and Anakadundubhi, with Devaki and Rohini, committed themselves to the flames."

-- [ Vis.Pur. 5.38 ] [ Vis.Pur. {Wils} p.481 ]

NOW MEGHA i have produced mny verses and can still produce more. You are seeing complete disregard to woman in your own scriptures. According to your scripture woman dont even have rights. Than you have the mouth to say things like that about islam when you cant even produce a single verse which comes anywhere close to what the hindu scripture teaches.

I am not blind, I am following a religion that gives woman choice, assests, and the best says woman are equal to men and your following a religion which says woman are not independent, are followers to their husband and should live a life of neglect.

Hmm i wonder if i am following the right religion?

Yeah right Mr Moderator,

Way to go, You just did not want that comment displayed did yer. If that comment was filthy then the comments from your pals that you are letting through are Pornographic. I'll try again later with amendments and I hope you let it through.

Megha:

Marie….way to go girl…I like your style!

I say:

Thanks.

Londonspirit has another 4 1/2 hours to answer my last accusation.

To Marie,

Hello stranger, how are you? Is it ok me calling you babes or similar? Or do you find it offensive like Megha?

MARIE: Post what you wanna post. it plays no concern to me. you do as yu wish whatever you feel like. your not gonna get the answer to your last accusation until you answer just one of my questions.

Adebate consists of questions from both side. It doesnt consist of only one party asking the questions and the other party answering. People who have read the dabate between ourselves know that I have attempted all your accusations apart from one, which i am not refusing to answer, and they also know that you havent answered to a single one of my accusation.

Your most welcome to write anything you want. go ahead an be my guest.lol. It just makes me laugh

Londonspirit, what you have (mis)quoted is known to us. I remember a similar article on Hinduism containing the stuff you have written was published on Islam watch. However a rebuttal to that article gave marching orders to the author. Take your time to read this article. It also contains stuff that refutes what you have written.

http://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/02/25/abul-kasem-rebuttal-maliger/

http://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/04/10/women-in-hinduism-part-2/

Happy reading & have a nice day!

Ok LS and Kabirlaw, here is the pearl for you from Quran, the final book to mankind uttered by paedophile Muhammed. Yeah it is about beating women..... Allah sanctioned it to Muhammad without thinking twice!

4.34 YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, "admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) BEAT THEM(lightly)"; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)..... huh.. the almighty CREATOR is telling Muslims to beat their wives LOL So much for women in Quran!

OK LS and Kabirlaw, here is one more gem from Quran. This time it is about Muhammet's marriage to his adopted son's wife. I find it disgusting to even mention it let alone discuss it in front of friends. Look friend because of this episode I call your pedophile Muhammad a "male whore" (pardon my language...)

33.37 YUSUFALI: Behold! Thou didst say to one who had received the grace of Allah and thy favour: "Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah." But thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest: thou didst fear the people, but it is more fitting that thou shouldst fear Allah. Then when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee: in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And Allah's command must be fulfilled.

I know the history behind this. Zainab was Muhammad's cousin. Zyed, a slave, was adopted by Muhammed, who then arranged the marriage between Zyed and Zainab. Kabir and LS, didn't Zainab then become Muhammad's daughter-in-law. Muhammed then lusted for Zainab. Then Zyed had to talaaq his wife so that Muhammed could enjoy her. All of a sudden Zyed was no more Muhammed's adopted son.... lol

If you Muslims think otherwise, then I have a logic to counter that as well. Why did Muhammed adopt Zyed in the first place? Once adopted no matter what you do, an adopted son is equal to a biological son. Let us agree that there were differences (even though there were none) between Zyed and Zainab and that they had to part ways.... OK if Muhammed really wanted a bright future for Zainab (his daughter-in-law), he should have found another suitable person for her. Why did he lust for her? There were hundreds of women in Mecca or medina then. His harem was full of women and concubines. He threw away remnants of any sanity left in him, dissolved his relationship with Zyed, and took Zainab to bed. Why the hell the almighty creator would bless a Muhammed-Zainab marriage and risk his reputation. In other words, wasn't Muhammed faking just to satisfy his carnal desires. Then there is another verse from Quran which orders Muhammed's companions to finish talks and leave immediately when they are at Muhammed's home. They were supposed to talk to the wives of Muhammed from behind a curtain. It was Muhammed's insecurity that forced him to utter this verse in the name of Allah. Finally, Muhammed sanctioned a verse not to remarry his widows after his death. Whereas it was OK for him to remarry others' wives and widows. He was a con-man for sure!

Tell me LS and Kabirlaw, isn't your pedophile Muhammed a MALE-WHORE? Pardon my language, but it is true. Think over this a zillion times from all possible angles and come to the right conclusion. I request all members to post their opinion on this. Personally I felt Zyed and Zainab got a raw deal out of this.

LONDONSPIRIT I HAD SPECIFICALLY TOLD YOU I WILL ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS AFTER YOU HAVE RESPONDED TO MY LAST ONE ( MY REASON FOR THIS IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE A HABIT OF NOT ANSWERING HARD QUESTIONS AND TRYING TO DEVIATE AWAY FROM HARD QUESTIONS THE POSTERS HAVE ASKED YOU ) SO STOP PLAYING GAMES.

BY THE WAY SINCE YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE LAST ACCUSATION AND WASTED THREE WEEKS OF MY TIME WAITING FOR YOU TO SHOW UP AGAIN I AM NOT GOING TO WASTE MY TIME ANY LONGER.

THE DEBATE IS OVER.

MY ARTICLE WILL BE POSTED SOMETIME SOON.

kabirlaw:

To Marie,

Hello stranger, how are you? Is it ok me calling you babes or similar? Or do you find it offensive like Megha?

I say:

I have no problem with it as long as there is no sexual intent behind it.

Hello Megha, I am sure you have flogged Kabirlaw and Londonspirit with your tough questions. I am confident that they will not be able to respond to your questions. I noticed that they didn't respond to Marie's questions either. Megha and Marie, you are doing a fine job.

Male-WHORE Muhammad..... ha ha ha it definitely sounds great for Muhammad. I would add something to it... Bose-d-k male-WHORE Muhammad.

Megha,

"If they want to downsize India’s laws vs. Hinduism, they need to take a look at their own religion and laws of Islamic nations!"

They are hypocrites. India is a secular country and many people from different culture live there. India is a great nation and cradle of asian civilization. Reality speak for itself, between pakistan and india, who is the better nation? About hinduism, there are no global threat from the hindus, because their religion is the nation's religion. Hindus in my country never create any problem, unlike muslim. Even when muslim in minorities they always create problems.

"How did you come up with that name? It is definitely different? Not trying to get off topic."

Did you mean my nick or those big mouths's nick? If you talked about my nick, i got it from their prophet.
- Their prophet is Mo (short english version)
- Sound of a cattle (Moo) represents the condition of woman under islamic law.
If you talked about those big mouths's nick, well search it at indonesian and english dictionary. You can see what is the position of a person from their nicks.

Kebirilewd,

Begining to show your true self, i see. No need to shy, let it out big mouth.

Rationalist,

LS says he is not blind.....lmao (laugh my ass off).....if he only knew.....;) Thanks for your encouragement, bro!

I suppose LS thinks I'm the blind one...or rather...all of us khaphirs...what do yoou think? ;)

LS,

There are two other comments I have posted in the "awakened" asside from the one obtaing info about the Stephen Knapp article....based on your comment, I see you didn't even bother to look....I said.....they arrived after the article was taken off the "recent posts" list.....look in the section on apostasy in the "awakened" article......did you not see them? Are you blind?

lmao

They are there....no mention of Stephen Knapp in them....stop playing your stupid manipulative games!

Kabirlaw,

Stop being so naughty....we love reading what you have to say so tone down the filthy language! lol

Moooo,

Cows are very lovely animals! :) That is why I asked that question....liked your last comment by the way.

Hindus hardly bother anyone...sure u have your nasty ones....I don't live in India...the u.s.....but some Americans I know very well will tell me that they've never been bother by a Hindu because they go about their business...unlike Muslims who bitch and whine about their equal rights when they know damn well they would not give others of different religions the same treatment/equality they are given here......It is our own fault for being so trusting of them!

The only problem some Americans I have talked to have with Indians is they try to bargain and that is for the majority, not allowed here and sometimes they are rude about it and some clerks can be greedy...but rudeness and greed are in every culture.....

I had a professor from Indonesia....she was one of my favs....she and her husband were Muslims, but from what I could tell, nonpracticing....she said they had to separate her from her siblings in religion classes because she questioned so much....she also said they tied her left hand back in order to make her use her right....to eat and such...she is a lefty....how stupid was that??? See...no tolerance of anything "unhalal"/different!

To Megha and her cheer leaders.

You said:

I am keeping my promise as I said I would, but you Kabirlaw have proven to be nothing more than a Muslim sexist pig like your pedo Mo prophet and pimp Allah! You intimidate women….I’m not your baby/babes…I might be a khaphir, but I’m sure as hell not yours for the taking…..you will see that more and more you’ll prove yourself to be the big hypocrite! Goodbye!

I say:

You don’t know me for ****. I’m not sexist, I respect and value women. You say I intimidate women! Are you serious? This site is full of people who share your opinion on Islam. I am vastly outnumbered here and if you check the exchanges I have had with your comrades and go by the abuse that I have been receiving despite trying to be polite in return you will realise who was trying to intimidate who. It is quite a job to come up on top in the face of so much criticism, sarcasm, insults, degradation, numbers and bigoted BS!
I’m sorry for calling you babes if that offends you (it’s just how I am but I meant it in a nice way). I never meant to imply that you are MY babes or that you are mine for the taking. There is nothing that you have said that has filtered through as attractive or appealing that would captivate me.

Megha You then said:

You know what….I changed my mind! Ok, KL….maybe your hadith says women and men should get equal punishment,

I say:

Thank you for accepting that you were wrong. It takes a lot of bottle to do that. So end of story, what’s all the fuss about and the name calling and swearing and the preconceived ideas of me being a sexist when you yourself have conceded defeat of your challenge that was blindly championed by others? What’s all that about then?

You then said:

When I left that sorry bastard of a husband…I made a vow I would help women and educate them on the evils of Islam….this promise means more to me than my silly challenge to you…..I would not be an hornorable and sincere if I allow women to go on believing Islam is for them…..as far as I’m concerned…this challenge is void anyway because even you Muslims do not stick to your Koran and hadith….everyone knows women are not equal fairly in Islam…koran and hadith alike so sorry…you will not be blessed with my silence…..women throughout history have suffered through enough intimidation…especially by you Muslim pigs!

My duty and honor is towards humanity…not you…you don’t bother honoring anyone or respecting anyone elses beliefs….there is no tolerance in you! Sorry you will not get what you want like you are used to…promise or no promise!

I say:

Then you go around calling Muslims liars?! Then you go around calling Muslims hypocrites?! Then you go around calling Muslims deceptive?! Then you go around calling Muslims insincere?!

Then you wonder why I am so angry with you people. Megha, I would have more respect for you if you simply said you hated Islam and All Muslims no matter what they say. At least you would be honest instead of trying to disguise your unconditional hatred with trying to make out that you are an academic or intellectual opponent and that Islam teaches inequality and hatred of women.

I never asked you to post a challenge. You did that on your own accord. I never asked you to keep your mouth shut if you lost, you promised that you would. Now that you yourself have accepted that you were wrong, you are failing to adhere to your own promise which you so proudly and arrogantly posted not long ago! AND the f****** icing on the cake is that YOU call ME the f****** liar and hypocrite.

I personally do not want women (or men) to be silent (I note the insinuation you are trying to conjure up). Where’s the fun in that? You said you that you will keep your mouth shut Megha, not me! You are a proven liar for ALL to see. It’s exactly what Ali Sina is going to do when he’s proven wrong when he is challenged.

Do you really think he’s going to remove this website? Do you really think he is going to give $50,000 and convert to Islam if proven wrong. My a****! He’s going to do the same thing that you have just done, he’s going to say something as follows:

“Well, I still think Islam is bad and I will carry on teaching humanity the evils of Islam.” I say: well done pal, well f***** done

You then said:

I sometimes have flashback and nightmares about my ex and experience….Kabirlaw caused me to have a flashback and remember the pain and intimidation again, but I snapped out of it….sometimes when that happens, I forget I’m no longer under his power….I’m sure many women who were blessed to get out of the evil clutches of husbands like this go through the same thing. My heart goes out to them!

I say:

Well, if that is what happens everytime I reply to you then I tell you what this is my final post to you. I’m not here to cause people psychological or emotional pain. And I pray also that no woman, Muslim or otherwise goes through what you have been through at the hands of an abusive partner. (However, since my comment was deleted I see you have recovered quite remarkably and are now posting OTHER challenges).

You then said:

KL….I don’t get it….you seem at times so kind and sincere….it is a shame we disagree….but nonetheless…I blieve you followed the teachings of a mad man…..It is nothing personal towards you just as I’m sure the fact that you do not believe as I do is anything personal towards me, but point blank….most members on this site disagree with you….I’m not the only one…..perhaps my emotions are still high as I have said, but….no one here blames me just as I don’t blame them!

I say:

Megha, You just called me a Muslim Pig earlier. Leave it be, I’ve tried to be nice to you and even get to know you, but, I know what you’re all about. Everyone knows in their heart of hearts that you lost miserably. Have a nice life.

MEGHA: You seriously make me laugh. You have not yet responded to a single one of my comments, about the harsh killings of female children in india and china before they are born. You have bypassed that question completely. You also havent told me why every 15 seconds a woman gets beaten by her partner in america. If all you guys are so against wife beating and against inhumanity against female, why does it happen the most in non-muslim nations.

Stop bypassing questions and answer it. You people think that just because there are so many of you, you can bypass questions without thinking that I would realise.

Not a single of you have evn produced a single verse from the quran that permits intolerance against woman and yet you have the mouth to accuse.

MEGHA: The verses I got were not from islamic watch, they were from different website, but alot of them were taken from an online glossary of the hindusim scriptures. All you have to type in is woman, and every verse that contains woman comes up. I just wrote sati, and I got alot of verses.

Any way i looked at the website. And i couldnt stop laughing. It is a debate between a well known lier called Abul Kasem, who is even on this site misquoting quranic verses. He is known for his misquotation.

The difference between him and me is that I am not misquoting. I have got direct verses. Ok do me a favour, i will quote two verses from you scriptures and I only want you to answer them. The first one is

Her father protects (her) in childhood, her husband protects (her) in youth, and her sons protect (her) in old age; a woman is never fit for independence. Manusmriti 9.3

“It is the highest duty of the woman to immolate herself after her husband,”[Br.P. 80.75] [Sheth 103]

1. why should a woman give her life up just because her husband died?
2. Why isnt a woman never fit for independence?

If you answer these two questions Megha I will disregard all the other verses I have that teaches against woman

Kabirlaw,

How have you tried getting to know me? How does arguing over religion qualify for getting to know somone...you don't know me either....you know my anger!

I said...maybe....I never said it did. If indeed the same punishment applies to both...then perhaps you should make it a point to preach to these Muslims who are disobeying the koran that they will indeed burn in hell for their cruel and barbaric punishments.....if the laws of Allah are not the laws of the land....my advice...do something to change it so hatred towards Islam will stop! Otherwise, there is no need to argue/defend your faith!

As far as the flashbacks...it was only the one comment.....anything can trigger them...not just you personally....

As for the challenge...I'm entitled to change my mind....I do live in a free country, you know! I never wrote the word promise......except for the comment where I said I'm not keeping it....how can I keep a promise I never made.....

Fine....I hate Islam....but I do not hate all Muslims....I don't hate you....I hate your religion....

Fine....I'll calm down my temper....if you want to know me a little better...fine....you'd probably actually like me if you saw me and spoke with me in person.....I can understand your dislike towards me.....I just wish you understood my dislike/hatred towards Islam.....

Ok....this promise I shallkeep if you are willing to accept.....I shall not lash out at you or swear at you or say anything cruel to you.....but I will give my opinions on Islam as everyone else does....Right here, right now in front of everyone....I will apologize for my anger towards you.....but don't mistake that as an apology towards Islam.

I do also apologize for calling you a pig.....sincerely apologize....if you want to get to know me....great....I'm actually a likable person....I'm not a bad person....just a bit angry....have a good day.

LS.....read the comments....do you want me to repeat it twice more...is 5 a number you understand? There are two comments on the other article...the last two, I believe....READ THEM for the 3rd time!

As far as China...what does that have to do with me? I'm not chinese and yes, they have mistreated women over centries upon decades and upon years....I'm not saying India has been fair....neither has America.....u don't even answer Marie's questions....so why should I feel any different.

Kabirlaw...I meant what I said.....I will keep my promise and be nicer to you....until I have a valad reason not to.....

Yes, I think many Muslims are liars.....I lived with them...remember? Perhaps you are a good person.....I'm sure you're not bad outside the site....but...I can't avoid what I feel towards your religion.....

l8r

Megha, I too read Jean Sassons books a few years ago, the titles had the word “Sultana’s” in them. And there are by now many other books about 2nd rate-status of women and honor killings in Islamic societies and now even in Islamic communities in Western countries/ India.

I admire your commitment about informing women all around the world about the treatment many Muslims give many of them, in Islamic countries and communities.

But unhesitatingly I will also agree with Kabirlaw and LondonSpirit, that many other groups of people, believing in other religions, in History, also treated women bad, as 2nd rate citizens. And they are absolutely right in asserting that honor killings happened in a lot of places and still happen outside of Islam too.

But when some religions, ways of organising societies, are sometimes, even often, mal-functioning, dangerous, that does not go away merely by pointing out that there are other causes of the exposed mal-functioning and danger too. It does not make the mal-functioning, dangerous religion harmless. It would still be an improvement for humanity to examine that religion thoroughly, and let people either abandon it or improve it. To let members of that religion declare what is right and wrong in the interpretations/ practices of their religion worldwide. TO THEIR CO-RELIGIONISTS, not just to its critics.

My theme is that Muslims should look with much humbleness and modesty to their religion. Because they have this ambiguous Holy text, presumably beautiful and beneficial, but in effect very ineffective in the world. Due to lack of any beautiful or beneficial interpretations/ practices anywhere it seems. At least lack of any that are not also practiced by believers of other faiths.

Resulting in: Performance of the Muslim part of mankind that at least nowadays on average, by and large, nowhere is any better than most common religions, faiths, ways of life. Islam, however meant, just doesn’t work in a way that makes it worth something extra! This is abundantly shown on FFI/ Islam Watch and many other places and it will be abundantly shown for a long time to come!

So, there is NO justification for any extra power, privileges for Islam anywhere anymore, so not in Islamic countries also, or in future in Democratic countries. Unless of course it is derived from fair elections.

MEGHA do you even no the debate me an marie had. There was conflict, she posed 8 questions and I posed 1. I answered 7 requesting her to answer my single 1. I said no before i answer your last question you have answer my single question. She saidNO. She wants me to answer her last accusation before she answers my one question. How is it fair in a debate whereby one party asks all the question without answering a single question. If that is the case it no longer becomes a debate, but rather more of a question and answering session.

I never denied to answer her last accusation, i am just waiting for her to answer MY ONE AND SINGLE QUESTION. One question is all i need to ask to prove the whole of christianity wrong and look how she avoids answering that one single question.

So now you know the story, just think of it with an open mind, did i answer her questions of is she avoiding to answer a single one of my question.

You wrote what has china got to do with me and how they mistreat woman. That is an appauling answer. So your telling me if someone was getting injustice you would just sit back and relax.

I ask that question because

1. You say islam teaches to beat the woman and dis honour them but you cant find a single verse that says such a thing.

2. two countries, india and china which consists of 1/3 of the world population practice killing featuses once they are identified as female. These countries are not muslim nations.

3. Every 15 seconds in america a woman is getting beaten by her husband or partner and america is not a muslim nation.

Wife beating and intolerance to ladies is happening more in non muslim countries than in muslim countries and yet your saying islam encourages it.

Why cant you people see outside the scope. Lets look at it logically. 1/5 of population is muslim and 2/3 of wife beating and intolerance to ladies happen in non-muslim nations. Do you see the trend here. These two countires alone cancels out the whole muslim population. And that is even before considering all african, european and aemrican nations.

londonspirit I have given my answer to your accusations against Jesus's divinity and so have five other people. My answer was Jesus spoke in parables about his divinity and I gave you my response to the verse about Jonah. So stop playing victim.

UNLIKE YOU I DID NOT DISAPPEAR FROM THE DEBATE.

I can't wait for your response when I post my article.