aatif vs FFI Staff

Printer-friendly versionSend to friendPDF versionFrom: aatif khan Reply-To: aatif khan To: faithfreedom2@gmail.com Date: 22 Mar 2006 04:20:00 Subject: Just one Surah!!!!!! WE ARE PROUD TO BE MUSLIM AND YOUR SITE MADE US MORE PROUD TO BE A MUSLIM. THE ONLY THING THAT YOUR SITE DID TO US WAS THAT WE LAUGHED AT YOUR SHORT SIGHTNESS AND ABILITY TO QUOTE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT.THAT'S WHY YOUR QUOTES ARE ALWAYS VERY SMALL,YOU PICK CERTAIN WORDS TO GET YOUR MEANING YOU WANT NOW YOU CLAIM U WILL REMOVE YOUR SITE IF PROVEN WRONG,I CLAIM I WILL LEAVE ISLAM IF YOU PRODUCE A SURAH OF QURAN.I REALLY MEAN IT.YOU DON'T HAVE TO WRITE LONG ARTICLES,TESTMONIES AND OTHER BLAH BLAH BUT JUST ONE SURAH,JUST ONE SURAH.IF YOU DO THIS I CAN SAY MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS WILL LEAVE ISLAM. MIND IT JUST ONE SURAH. [color=purple] Aatif, Check the following site: [url=http://suralikeit.com/]http://suralikeit.com/[/url] You will find many Surah that are as good or better than those in the Quran. The challange in the quran about producing one surah is a stupid challange. If you want to discuss more go to the forum and post there You can find the link to the forum on the faithfreedom.org website. Doubtless.[/color] Date: 26 Mar 2006 14:30:10 Subject: Surah like it!!!!! Again ur stupid site made us more proud of being a Muslim and also to laugh at ur childish surahs. First of all ,they lack a mathematical code which Holy Quran has. second ,if ur are so sure of there quality then why don't u get them published in a international newspapers and get them checked by Quranic Scholars. Lastly,when ever we lose a little bit of faith in Islam,we visit ur site to get it increased. Really,ur helping many muslims being more proud of there faith. [color=purple] Aatif, You should do a little search on surahlikeit and you will find that the mullahs tried their hardest to prevent them from being published on the net. Please type 'surah like it' or 'suralikeit' into any search engine and you will get lots of material on the topic. Many many people find the surahs produced to be better than the surah of the quran. If your faith increases visiting our site, I hope you will tell all your muslim friends to visit our site and to get their faith increased. Again if you want to know more about codes in the Quran, and about surah like it, visit the forum and the participants can answer your questions there. These issues have been discussed by others. Doubtless [/color] First of all,I pray to All Mighty to help u!! Again, i see u have a habit of saying things without proper backing. Plz name the mullah's ,do these muhallahs are creditible enough ??how do i know all this.again can u plz verify the mathematical code of Quran in ur kindergarden poem's. Show me point by point,word by word every detail of the mathematical code in ur poem's. And yes.plz don't repeat ur habit of saying things without proof's ,of saying things out of context.That's why wat ever you quote from Quran are few picked words from here and there,to make them look totaly differnt in meaning. one thing more,can u give me ur concept of God? And yes,thanks for increasing by faith more by replying to my e mail Hope u will reply to this mail also so as to increase my faith in Islam. [color=purple] aatif, did you do the search that I asked you to do? No you did not. Why not? I reply because the purpose of this faithfreedom.org is help muslims see that Islam is one big lie. If reading the website increases your faith and increases the faith of muslims then I hope you will tell everyone at your jumah namaz about faithfreedom.org. You do want all your muslim brothers to have stronger faith, don't you? Now read this link to learn a little about the suralikeit like I gave you earlier: [url=http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/29/036.html]http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/29/036.html[/url] It was the mullahs of the Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt who had denounced the publication of the suras on AOL in 1998, i.e. 8 years ago. Are those mullahs reputable enough for you? Then read the link: http://www.exmuslim.com/khaled/news/index.htm to see some of the comments in the egyptian newspapers. There is no code in the Quran. That is a silly idea. I have told you that if you want more information then you should look in the forum at faithfreedom.org. The idea of codes has been discussed a lot there. Muslims always use the excuse that any criticism is out of context, or arabic cannot be translated, etc. Why don't you read AliSina's writings first? Doubtless [/color] Date: 27 Mar 2006 11:33:22 Subject: Another Good Joke First of all thanks for replying and increasing my faith in Quranic verse whose translation is that---"Unless human is not guided by truth it will always become lowest of the low" 2.why do u give me site of non muslims.i want reaction from reputed international media like bbc,cnn,famous newspapers. 3.if u can't find a mathematical code in Quran then it does't mean Quran does'nt have mathematical code! I can help u a bit in finding the code --visit "http://www.submission.org/math-ap1.html" 4.I can't imagine any media will not publish ur kindergarden poems because the challenge of "Suran like it" is one of the most revered challenges that a muslim has to offer to a kafir,and if someone has tried to break it ,it will be accepted by any media. 5.U dind'nt gave me ur concept of God,and which religion you followed after getting blind to the signs of Almighty. Really ur making me proud of being a muslim Date: 27 Mar 2006 11:51:07 Subject: Another Good Joke part 2 I missed some more point i wanted to mention in my previous mail. 1.Does ur kindergarden poem's have any fact which is not yet discovered by Science. 2.Does ur kindergarden poem's have any future propheies Like Quran 3.While listeing to Quran many people cry.does that same happen when ur kindergarden poems are read. (yeah as far as laughing is concerned,yes it happens!!!!!) 4.Then as uasal that code which must have got in detailed from that link which i gave. 5.Today if any one wants to prove that the Qur’an is not the word of God, u just has to point out a single contradiction in the Qur’an. which u will never find except when u use ur "quoting out of context skill" or "skill if pluking words from here and there to make them look totally differnt" 6. The Qur’an maintains throughout the highest possible standard of in its speech. 7. The language of the Qur’an is most clear, meaningful, intelligible, unsurpassable and miraculous. 8. It does not deviate from the truth and still maintains its eloquence, rhythm and style unlike human poetry and literature. 9. The Qur’an repeats several information in different styles and by passages and narrations of varying sizes, all being of a very high standard that one cannot be preferred to another. Hope to get a reply to increase my faith in islam and yes some more lauging stock in the form of ur replies and those kindergarden poems (v) The Qur’an encompasses a vast range of meaning in a surprisingly small number of words without losing its charm and majesty. [color=purple] aatif, please use the reply button to answer the mails instead starting new subjects. It clutters up the mailbox. This mail address is not for an individual debate. If you want answers to your questions and answers on your code in the quran as by submitters then please post your inquiries at the Forum on the faithfreedom.org. The code of '19' has been debunked many a times. Quran does not have any science in it as well. That has been debunked as well. If you want to know more go read the information on the website. Afterall muslims keep telling how there is a haith that 'to get knowledge go to china even if you have to" , and you will not even read the information that is already posted. Take the time to go read the information I have sent you already, and what is already available on the Faithfreedom website. Doubtless [/color] Regarding science in Quran ,i will show in next few days. But plz answer my questions: 1.What is the concept of God at FFI 2.How does God communicate with humans acc to u at FFI 3.Which are divine books present in world according to u at FFI 4.In which persons-Moses(pbhu),Jesus(pbhu)etc do u beleive at FFI 5.Do u belive in angels at FFI [color=purple] aatif, thank you for replying using the reply button. There are people from many different backgrounds at FFI forum. There are many ex-mulims. There are christians, jews, buddhists, hindus, atheist, agnostics, deists, freethinkers, Aastrauians, etc. FFI does not promote any particular concept of God or religion. That is upto the individual. Personally I consider moses to be not real, a creation of story tellers (there is a lot of support for that by the archelogists and historians now), and I consider jesus to be very likely to be not a real historical person. But that is personal opinion. Other people on the forum will disagree and disagree strongly. Here is a link started by Edip Yuksel of the code of 19 in the Quran on the forum. Read it and you will get an idea about the validity of the code: [url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=95198#95198]http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=95198#95198[/url] Doubtless [/color] Date: 28 Mar 2006 09:32:20 -0000 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Another Good Joke part 2 I got ur point but you give me ur institues point of view and not which are at ur forum. 2.There are many things that science can't prove but u amd me beleive in.so the reason that there was no moses(pbuh) and jesus(pbuh)(or something like that just)becoz historians can't prove is not the write things 3.Personalities like Moses(pbuh) and Jesus(pbuh) are not propagated from story tellers 4.Life time of Muhammad(SAW) was and is perfectly recorded.There is no scope of addiion. Finally,i think there are two types of anti muslims 1.one who learns islam and then don't like it 2.one who don't like it and then learns it. i think u people are in catagory 2.Learing are thing with baising will never let u know "signs of All Mighty" [color=purple] aatif, I had a hard time understanding you this time around, but I reply to what I understood. I gave you my personal point of view. There are thousands of members of the forum and they all have their own opinions and point of view. It is not that historians cannot prove, but there is no internal consistency to the claims. For example, Quran and the bible claim a certain age when the Universe was created, or when Adam was created. Science directly contradicts that. The earth is billions of years old and not thousands of years old as claimed by the religious scriptures. To believe in the religious scriptures one has to ignore the facts that science has discovered. Ask yourself what does the Quran say about the creation of Adam, and how long ago was that and then see all the scientific evidence against that simple story. What should a person in the 21st century believe? Stories from a 7th century text from arabia or the knowledge that man has learnt painstakingly through science? Again if you have questions or comments, please ask them or post them at the Forum. Doubtless. [/color] We should beleive the All Mighty which is in turn is holy books. Science itselfs is never sure about its own facts and contradicts it own beliefs.One study says something and another study says something else. this is not the case of Quran.it has no contradictions,i repeat it has no contradictions which many non muslim scolars aggree with. Now to the question: What do you(one who responds to my emails) thinks about All Mighty.Till now i have guess that he is atheist. Yes ,u are still not able to prove that Quran is not Divine in origin Beleive me if ur kindergarden poems would have been a touch of wat Glorious Quran has,it would have created a havoc in the World,but i say its not even in much publicity. If u are so sure that those poems are good enough,WHY?!!! dont u get them published in everywhere where u can think of.And then let the justist be done about them.let the world decide.why not bring them in full light. one thing more,the very first letters in our kindergarden poems is Alf,Lam,Mim.can u explain me the meaning of these!!! and yes, i am still awaiting ur explaintion of word by word of ur poems with that of code of 19.you cant deny,i repeat u can't deny code 19.if u cant find it then it doent mean it's not in quran. And yes.plz dont forget to give me ur concept of God [color=purple] aatif, I urge you to post your questions and inquiry at the Forum. Here is link to it http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum . You will find many people who can answer your questions. As for myself, I do not believe that Quran has no contradictions. It is full of contradictions. I do not believe that Quran is the word of God at all. I am convinced that muhammed was an evil barbarian and the muslims of today have been fooled into believing the nonsense of the quran. Man does not know everything and that is the reason why science is not sure because it always finds more and corrects its mistakes. Quran is set in stone and any errors in it (and there are many) are also set in stone. That is why muslims have to say the Quran is perfect because they cannot change one word of it. Even Allah cannot change the past. Because a single word cannot be changed, muslim have to assert that quran is perfect and will defend it no matter what. If you find one mistake in the quran, then you know it is not the word of God and the whole facade of Islam comes crashing down. So you are stuck in believing that quran is perfect. That is why muslims are trapped into being backward and being left behind in the world and the kaffirs are moving way way ahead. Look at results of science: a long time ago man learned to make a wheel, and he learnt some more and learnt to make a wheelbarrow and then a bicycle and then made a lot of mistakes but learnt from the mistakes and now sends ships to saturn and beyond. What has quran taught the muslims in the 1450 years? If you want to learn more and interact with people who used to be muslims and now know better and have left Islam, post at the forum and ask your questions there. Doubtless [/color] To: FFI Date: 30 Mar 2006 04:02:20 -0000 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Good Joke part 2 I see u have a habit of ignoring some part of my email.I again ask u 1.What is your(one who responds to my emails) concept of God.I want only ur concept,not of anobody else. 2.Why don't you get ur kindergarden poems published everywhere you can think of. I really see if your work of making people blind to the signs of Allah(SWT) becoming very easy if you get them to whole(by whole i mean whole)world.Get them on very channel of every language,on every newspaper u can think of.Because very few use internet as compared to TV or newspapers. 3.U did'nt gave me the meaning of Alf Lam Meim,the very first words of ur kindergarden poems. 4.If you say dont beleive in Holy books and only in science,then u should not beleive God as science as not proved that.U should not beleive in life after death and most importantly as there will be no God so there will be not accountability of ur deeds so we can say we can do anything!!!!!!!!! Plz reply soon and mind it your reply should be to the point.In the later email i asked to something and you gave me something else. I would appreciate if you answer these 4 questions only and that to in pointwise form. [color=purple] Aatif, 1. I do not believe that enough is known by man to even define what most people mean by "God". If you tell me exactly what you mean by "God" then I can answer better. Different people mean different things by God. 2. Those are not my poems or owned by anyone at ffi. You wanted a surah like the one in the Quran and I gave you a site that has published more than 10. And I also gave you links to the Al-Azhar mullahs who were fooled by them, and wanted them banned. If you do a search, you will find that many poets and scholars think that they are better "poems" than the quran "poems". They are published on the net and are far easily available to anyone who wants them. Personally, I think that is better than publishing as a hardcopy. Since I do not own them, I have no say in whether they should be published in hardcopy or not. 3 Quran uses Alif, Lam, meem, and other alphabets like that at the start of surahs. I assume who ever wrote these new surahs was imitating the Quran. Ibn Abbas had conjectured that in the Quran Alif, Lam, meem were the first letters of "ana Allah a`lam" in arabic or "I, Allah, am the best Knower". It is a conjecture only since others have disagreed and have other ideas about what it means. 4. Why do you assume that man will act responsibly only when he is afraid of some punishment? Do you love your children because you are afraid that if you do not you will be punished by allah? Tell me truthfully. When you see an old man fall down, do you help him up only because you are afraid that if you do not then you will be punished by allah? There have been many people who did not believe in God who have been very good people. Do you only act out of fear? You see most non-muslim socities are better than muslim societies because humans act responsibly not because they are afraid of allah or they are earning bonus points to go to heaven, but because they want to live in a society where they can raise their families and be able to be productive. Even as kids people learn that if you are mean to others then they will be mean to you. You have a rediff email address. I assume you are indian. Excuse me if I have made a mistake. In india there are many communist parties and many of them are atheists and do not believe in any god. Why do they work so hard for the rights of the workers? Aatif, I do not worry about God or about the life after death. I have found that many people say that there is a God and many say that there is no God. Many people say that there is a life after death and many say that there is no life after death and that when we die, we die and that is it. I do not think it matters who is right or who is wrong. I worry about this life. I can make a difference in this life. I can make this world a better place. I can work to make sure that my family can live in peace. I can work to make sure that my neighbors can live in peace. I try to help my fellow man and I try to teach my kids to help other people. What will happen after death will then take care of itself. I do not accept "Allah" as God because even though the quran says that allah is very merciful etc. but then it also lays out some very very horrible punishment for eternity for the kaffirs. I just do not want to believe in a God that can be so cruel to his own creation. I know that if my child made a mistake and made me very very angry, I would still not try to kill him or hurt him. If I cannot do that to my child, I cannot accept that Allah will make the kaffirs drink boiling water, or pour molten metal on their heads. If that is what God is then I do not care for such a God. [/color] To: faithfreedom2@gmail.com Date: 31 Mar 2006 10:59:00 -0000 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Good Joke part 2 Thnks for the point wise reply 1.Defination of Allah(SWT) is not hidden to anybody.I hope you know that definition.If not read Quran especially (112)Surah Ikhlas. The anology used by u that "If something is not know then it should not believed" is not logical. 2.Regarding those kindergarden poems i am not saying you own it.I am saying why is the owner them hestitating to get them in public.You cant deny that getting them in public on TV and newspapers would certainly get more publicity than on internet.I am not saying remove them from internet.I am saying give them every pubilicity u can think of.Sell there copies free of cost.Post them on walls. REASON for why am stressing on this point again and again is that Quran claims you can not produce it,but you produce it=Quran is wrong=Quran is not divine in origin=the very basic belief of Islam is proved wrong=You acheive what you want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Simple equation!!! Isn't it!!! You don't have to write long articles,conduct debates,publish books,maintain websites,and many other thing that you your self know.So my suugestion is that you stop every thing and dwell on this challenge only.Put everything you have--money,energy,resources to prove this challenge wrong. 3.Your reply about Alif Lam Meim was not all convincing.Why this uncertainity.Since you consider Quran to be not divine in origin,then why are you not geting ant concrete meaning of these words,or many similar words.There are many difficult codes which where decode,why then spare this code. 4.Yes,fear of punishemnt is not the only reason to do good thing,but is one of the reason.Regarding non-muslim socities are better than muslim societies,this sentence is without any proof so i will not comment on it. I repeat when ever you say something give "names,refernces" etc.I don't appreciate "shooting in the sky" claims. 5.The example of "I will not kill my child even if my child makes me angry" is not correct. To what extent your kid can disobey you?.At worst become a "Hitler". Don't you think this kid deserve to be killed or you love for your kid will be there also.Now you may say how can a "Kafir" be equal "Hilter"?!! This world,sun,moon,land,sea,animals,plants,atoms as well as universe are signs of that Almighty.That Almighty created a ant as well as blue whale,he created hot sun as well as freezing Pluto,he created such a perfect machine called human body.All those thing you and I can't even imagine. He has given us such a power brain by which (a)we have learnt to fly though we don't have wings, (b)we can save yourself from dangerous animals (c)we go that places which even don't have a atom of oxygen Dont you ever think of the creator after watching discovery channel,national geographic,animal planet. I am sorry to say that if you dont think about that creator after so many signs of Almighty then you are worse than a MAD person.Then you don't have feelings in your heart.(Sorry,but it may sound harsh) What should one say to that person who still can't reconize that Almighty and instead workship an stone,human or even deny his existence.Obivosly "MAD".Hilter was also mad. Now to the point of punishment.After so many signs of Almighty and after being given such a power machine called Human mind then also you dont reconize that Creator or for your matter don't even CARE to know about them,then i think all the punishment given in Quran are justified. And to the point of making this life good for self and others.This point of view is already in Islam.There is no denying in that.Islam never has preached to become sages ,to leave all worldy things and go to hill to workship.Islam preaches to prepare for both this and that life.There are many who have very well juggled this mixture and made there both lifes succesful. Yes,I am an Indian. I would appreciate your coming replies in this point wise format as it makes sence as well as help us in not missing anything. [color=purple] Aatif, 1. I do not think I have said "if something is not known then it should not be believed". How can you believe or not believe in something you do not know?. I say do you believe in Gaxihtanauo? Won't you ask, what the heck is that? How can you believe or not believe in Gaxihtniauo if you do not know what it is? Sura Ikhlas is YUSUFALI: Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. That is the standard stuff that is stated by many other religions and is not unique to Islam. That definition applies to the Universe as well, but many argue that the Universe is only Allah's creation, but they offer no proof or evidence to it. The Cosmos is the One and Only as far as we know. It is Eternal and Absolute as far as we know. And there is nothing like the Cosmos as far as we know, and the Universe does not begetteth nor does it seem to be begotten. And according to the latest Ideas in String Theory, it is "beyond time" and it seems to be for "forever". 2. I have no contact with the owner. But I do not think it will help to publish them on paper. They are there and many muslims are getting to know about them. Why don't you take them to your arabic scholar and ask him what he thinks of the quality of the work. Many muslims claim that the challange in Quran was only during the time of Muhammed and not for later times. Do you know arabic? Quran is not divine in origin. What proof do you have that it is divine in origin? Read at FFI all the errors that exist in the Quran. Muslims keep saying that Quran is the Word of Allah and not one word can be wrong in it. Quran was in the 7th century, and there are many things that we know now that were not known then and they are just wrong. Muslims will keep getting further and further behind because they cannot accept the fact there are errors in Quran and to learn. 3. I do not know who wrote the new surahs. How can I know why he wrote Alif Lam Meem? I told you what I guessed. I do not know. I told you what some muslims think is the code of Alif Lam Meem in the Quran. You can read ibn Abbas yourself and find out why he says that is the code. You see I do not think Quran is divine and consider it a waste of time to find silly codes in a book written in the 7th century by barbarian arabs. 4.Look around you. Nearly all modern things that you need and use was invented by kaffirs. What proof do you need that kaffirs have left muslim socities in the dust? Look at the UN report and it tells you that the muslim countries are at the bottom of achievement when compared to the kaffir countries. How many Noble prizes have the muslims gotten? Tell me an invention that muslims have made in the last 500 years. All modern medicines you take, automobiles, airplanes, telephone, televison, DVD, computers, radio, sowing machine, internet, movies, and the list is endless and all of these are by kaffirs. Give me a list of what have the muslims created in the last 700 years. 5.You do not know if Allah actually did all the things you say. You are merely repeating what you have been told by you mullahs. Aeroplanes were invented by kaffirs who did not believe in Allah. Travel in space or underwater was again master by kaffirs who did not believe in Allah. Allah did not give us the brains. It is a process of Evolution and it took millions and millions of years for brains to develop. There is no evidence for a creator. As I have shown you in 1 above that Universe is unique. Again When I watch Discovery Channel, national geographic, animal planet I see that kaffirs made all those shows and not muslims. And these kafirs know about Science and this science talks about Evolution and principle of nature, and laws of physics, biology, etc. and they are doing things that people in the past could not even imagine. I have feelings in my heart. I see the chinese kaffirs, the indian kaffirs, the european kaffirs, the american kaffirs all learning and educating themselves and leaving behind the much of the nonsense of their religions, but I find the muslims clinging to the Quran and all the errors in it and falling further and further behind. How long can the muslims insist on making that mistake? Look you worship Allah, but then why do you use all the stuff that kaffirs have made and invented? Why do use all the stuff that these MAD kaffirs have made. From the time you get up to the time you go to sleep, look at how much you use that was invented or made by muslims and how much you use that was invented or made by kaffirs. That should tell you something. What has islam prepared you or your children to do? Who is talking about leaving all worldly things and going to hills? Even the buddhists and hindus who used to do that have learnt and moved on. Look at the difference between India and Pakistan and Bangladesh. Pakistan is filled with Islam and muslims are killing each other because they cannot decide who is a muslim and who is not. Aatif, please look at the forum and you may wish to post there. But look at it first for some time. You can interact with a lot of different people there. Doubtless. [/color] To: FFI Date: 3 Apr 2006 12:20:41 -0000 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Good Joke part 2 I will reply soon,i am busy To: FFI Date: 12 Apr 2006 04:13:33 -0000 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Good Joke part 2 I am late in reply as my school examinations were going on. 1.What is Gaxihtanauo? Why are you in so much of doubt.GIVE ME YOUR CONCEPT OF GOD.I want a straight reply.Are you shy of your religion that you are not giving me its concept of God.I am proud to be a muslim and will very quickly give him info on islam if someone ask for it.Why are you shying in giving your info on your religion. 2.U say that Sura Ikhlas can also be appied to universe!!.So your knowledge about big bang theory is very less as it is well acceprted that universe was once an atom(biggining) and one day it will explode(end).String theory is not accepted by all.Big bang is accepted by all. Your username is Doubtless but u always use "as far i know".Arnt you haing convincing knowledge.May be science will one day prove that cosmos is not one.Science always changes.Religion never changes as it is from the All mighty. 3.I repeat my challenge to get those poems to the whole(whole means whole)world.If you dont have connact to that person then get any other poem or from FFI or try to make your own!!!! I just cant imagine why you people are running and neglecting this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ challenge.I hope you remeber my equation.Really,if i was at your place ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ i would have dwelled at this challenge only as it will break the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ backbone of islam.Why not compose poems on FFI and get them to 1.5 billion poeple?????Let justice be done to them. As far as those opems are concerned i studied there english translation ,trust me,i sewer in that name of Allah (you sholud know a proud muslim will never take a false oath on the name of Allah)they are not a shade of what the Quran has to offer.One if them says about Jesus's(pbuh) divinity which Quran simply rejects. 3.As far as inventions are concerned,plz don't tell me how much fraud these christians and jews are.The world knows how beautifuly the removed and hide all the contributions of muslims in everyfield and attributed to themselfs.They pronunce the name of muslim scientist in such a way that it sounds like a Chistians or jewish one.Muslims triggerd the Renissanace in europe after the chruch has simply thrown the whole europe in darkness.All these theories and knowledge was litterly translated from arbaic poeple. Chirstains are famous for the fraud policies,this thing the whole world knows. And i can also say why do u use oil from middle east?!!!! 4.As far as behaviour of muslims are concerned -there are black sheeps in every herd.Christains also have bad people If a bad driver driving a Merc Benz hits a tree--what wuold you say!!!Driver is at fault or Merc Benz??????.Hope you can relate this example to your debate. 5.See these Quotes from Quran (A)"Do not the unbeliever see that the heavens and earth were joined ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ together (as one unit),before we clove them asunder? 21:30 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Can you see a striking similarity between this verse and Big Bang theory!!!!!!!!!!!! (B)"And the earth,moreover hath he made egg shaped"79:30 ^^^^^^^^^^ This vesre strikingly gives the geospericial shape of earth. (C)"And the sun runs its corse for a period determined for it"36:38 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Today science also says that Sun will extinguish after some time after its helium will become empty. (D)"He has let free the two bodies of flowing water meeting together.Between them is a barrier which they do not transgress"55:19 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Today science says the place where water of two ocens meet they dont mix because of the barrier so that there temp,salinity etc reamins intact. (E)"We made from water every living thing"21:30 "And Allah has created every animal from water"24:45 Even a 4 grader knows that every living thing is 70-90% made of water (F)"Created man,out of a mere clot of congealed(leech like substance) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ blood"96:2 Today have only the embryolist know that human embroyo in its intial satges appears like a leech (G)"And he gave you hearing and sight and feeling"32:9 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Today science accepts that foetus first develops hearing and then sense of light 6.The reason i dont come to your forum is that i am not afraid but because i have a very slow tryping speed and it also doent make sense in debating to many at a time because then the topic surly goes devaited.Its better to have a one on one. And why are you inviting me to forum.Are you not sure of your own knowledge!!!!!!! 7.As a compititor shows benifts of one product over other,similarly show me the benifits of the other religion over Islam.Islam give me code of conduct of everything so you have to show me all the code of conduct that you want me to follow. READ THE POINT 5 [ESPECIALLY 5(B)] VERY PATIENTLY AND YOUR REPLY SHOULD HAVE THE ANSWER OF THE QUESTION "FROM WHERE DID SUCH SCIENTIFIC FACTS IN QURAN CAME 1400 YEARS AGO WHICH SCIENCE HAS FOUND RECENTLY????????????????????" 8.I wish i could show you more scientific facts in Quran but as a student that too with slow typing speed i cant have much time on net. At last i will quote one verse which aptly apply to you "Deaf,dumb and blind, they will not not return (to the path)"2:18 I told you na!!!It apply perfectly to you!!!!!!!!! [color=purple] 1. I am not shying from giving you my concept of God. I find the concept of God to be ill defined and really there does not seem to be a need for it. Most concepts that people give of God are easily shown to be nonsense. I know you are proud to be a muslim. That is why you are so certain of everything even when you do not know. Ignorance never bothers muslims. 2. You do not know much about Big Bang. Big Bang is a theory just like String theory. Big Bang merely describes the universe after a certain temperature, and that is all, and the reason is that the laws of physics do not allow men as yet to tell what the laws should be for very very small and very very massive yet. String theorists are trying to bridge that gap. And no one knows if it will explode or not. No one knows whether it was created or not. And no theory is accepted by all. You seek certainity when there is not enough information. Again Sura Ikhlas is satisfied by the Cosmos and you have no proof or real argument that it is not. Everything changes. The problem with Islam is that it cannot change, and the world and the facts have changed to the extent that makes Islam a dinosaur that is causing massive problems to its followers because they do not know how to step into the modern world. 3. Look the poem challange is silly. One guy says the poem is better than the nonsense in the Quran and you will find a muslim saying it is not. You give me an unbiased criteria according to which the poems could be judged as better or not, and then we can apply the criteria. What is your criteria according to which someone could judge whether a sura is better than the one in the Quran or not? Who is running away? I have given you 10 sura that arabic scholars claim are better than any sura in the quran. You state your criteria unambiguously. Right now it is your judgment from their english translation against the arabic scholars. How do we decide who is right? You are a muslim; you are emotionally tied to the quran and ofcourse you will find the quran sura better. So what is an independent criteria? That is impossible to define. Look at [url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19726]http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19726[/url] 4. Look at muslim history of 1450 years and see how much blood has been shed by the muslims. Christians have not been all that better but atleast they have changed and do not kill as the muslims are still blowing themselves up all over the world. Hardly a week goes by when some muslim is not blowing himself up seeking shahaadat. 5. Science in Quran. The points you bring up have been debunked often and muslims just look silly by bringing this up again and again. Just do a search and you will find how stupid these arguments by people who do not know any science. Here are a few links at the FFI forum but there is a whole lot more on the net. See: [url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12609]http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12609[/url] [url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15933&start=0]http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15933&start=0[/url] [url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16605&start=0]http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16605&start=0[/url] [url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1898&start=0]http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1898&start=0[/url] [url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5606&start=0]http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5606&start=0[/url] [url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7509&start=0]http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7509&start=0[/url] [url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14448]http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14448[/url] [url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12898]http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12898[/url] [url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11459&start=0]http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11459&start=0[/url] [url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19174]http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19174[/url] [url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14914&start=0]http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14914&start=0[/url] [url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17873]http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17873[/url] [url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16655&start=0]http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16655&start=0[/url] [url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16773&start=0]http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16773&start=0[/url] 6. If you do not want to go to forum, that is your choice. 7. I am not here to try to convert you to anything or anybelief. That is upto you. Smoking is dangerous for your health, and I can tell you that smoking will kill you without having to state what you should smoke instead of tobacco. You see I asked you to tell me a few inventions that muslims have made over the last 500 years. You show all the science in the Quran, that muslims discovered in the quran after the kaffirs had stated it in their science books first. If there is so much science in the quran, how come the muslims never have been able to find a single law of science? Think about that? You are so terrified of the punishment of allah, that you are unable to think clearly. And you call me dumb and blind? Open your eyes and see how backward and ignorant the muslims are compared to the kaffirs. Why is that? Doubtless. [/color] To: FFI Date: 13 Apr 2006 11:28:47 -0000 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Good Joke part 2 I suggets you should change your id from "Doubtless" to "Doubtfull" because your emails are full of "as far as i know", "may be" etc. 1.I have been persiting for your concept of God but U have not given me a clear cut answer.Still i assume that "U DONT CARE TO KNOW ABOUT OF GOD".Am i right?but do tell me do U believe that God exists or you simply deny its existence.Plz be clear in this topic in your reply.I want a clear cut answer. 2.Some time ago,it was illogical to think a thing heavier than air can fly but this view was proved wrong by aeroplanes.Science itselfs changes,contradicts itself so you can never depend on it.The word of God doent need to be changed.You can depend on it.Regarding scientific facts in Quran.These facts where first in Quran and was realized by science and not vice versa. "And the earth,moreover hath he made egg shaped"79:30 ^^^^^^^^^^ This vesre strikingly gives the geospericial shape of earth. YOU JUST ANSWER ME THIS QUESTION --"HOW DID THE CORRECT SHAPE OF EARTH IS GIVEN IN A 7CENTURY BOOK AS THIS FACT WAS FOUND IN 17CENTURY" I WANT THIS ANSWER IN YOUR REPLY(NOT A LINK BUT YOUR ANSWER) OR ELSE I WOULD THINK YOU CAN'T ANSWER THIS QUESTION.I REPEAT THE QUESTION-- "HOW DID THE CORRECT SHAPE OF EARTH IS GIVEN IN A 7CENTURY BOOK AS THIS FACT WAS FOUND IN 17CENTURY" 3.Yes,you afaird of the "surah like it" challenge.I give you a scene--- - YOU BRING YOUR POEMS TO 1.5 BILLION>>HELL BREAK LOSE>>YOU GET DEATH THREATS>>BUT SOME MUSLIMS GIVE IT A FAIR LOOK>>MAY BE 1 OR 10 OR 100 OR 1 MILLION OR EVEN 1 BILLION ACCEPTS YOUR CLAIM>>YOU ACHEIVE WHAT YOU WANT. I SEE YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE IN THIS ATTEMPT.EVEN IF 10 PEOPLE ACCEPTS IT YOU ACHEIVE WHAT YOU WANT.EVEN IF NO ONE ACCEPTS YOUR CLAIM THEN ALSO YOU GET TREMENDOUS PUBLICITY.I HOPE YOU REMEMBER MY EQUATION ALSO. LOOK HOW UNBIASED I AM WITH YOU,I AM LITTERLY INVITING YOU.TELL ME,WHAT MORE I CAN DO THAN THIS. BUT I KNOW, DEEP DOWN INSIDE,YOURSELF,YOU KNOW THOSE POEMS NOT A SHADE OF WHAT QURAN HAS TO OFFER. QURAN MAKES ME CRY THOUGH I DONT KNOW ARBAIC BUT YOUR POEMS MAKE ME LAUGH.THATS THE DIFFERNECE. 4.How hippocriate(dont mind the speeling) you are!!!!!!!You talk of unbiased judge.What ever news you get,you get from westrn media,so how can you expect to get the truth.They will show only there side. Why will they show the fact that USA(modern day crusader) has created more violence than any other group after WWI-I.Since World War II, the United States actually dropped BOMBS ON 23 COUNTRIES. These include: China 1945-46, Korea 1950-53, China 1950-53, Guatemala 1954, Indonesia 1958, Cuba 1959-60, Guatemala 1960, Congo 1964, Peru 1965, Laos 1964-73, Vietnam 1961-73, Cambodia 1969-70, Guatemala 1967-69, Grenada 1983, Lebanon 1984, Libya 1986, El Salvador 1980s, Nicaragua 1980s, Panama 1989, Iraq 1991-1999, Sudan 1998, Afghanistan 1998, and Yugoslavia 1999,Afganistan 2003,Iraq 2004. Plz note that there are many non muslim country in the list. Plz visit this link:http://www.missionislam.com/conissues/motherofallterrorists.htm Just because you dont get the news of what happening to muslims doent mean they are living in peace.You should know what the hell of the lives have been made of muslims in many country. When Hamas man blows himself then hell break lose but when israelies kill 10 year old with rockets then no one thinks about it. USA tell other not to make nukes but itself has so much of it.What do you make if it. If All Mighty have given you brain to think,the think why does muslims take such drastic steps...............for money,fame...no to respond back.We will never tolerate innustice. Why Osama,a rich man sacrifies his comfortable life,wants to live in mountains running from here and there.Think about it ,peacfully The world knows what the intenstions of usa is--to stop terrorism or getting OIL. Shame on you,who advocates a group who in name of making world a better place has inturn made it hell. 5.I thought i was making you open your eyes to signs of All Mighty rather than myself becoming blind!!!!!!!!!!!!! As far looking around is concerned,when i look , i am more than proud of being a muslim (a)I see kafirs in porns and all the immorality but see muslims gaurding there modesty. (b)I see every minute many women are raped in kafir country but not on muslim country. (c)I see westerns having divorse like changing moblies but not in muslim country. (d)I see rich kafirs accumilating wealth but even a very modest muslim giving atlest 2.5% of this wealth in charity. (e)I see chruch begging christians for"15 minutes a week" ,but muslims coming to mosque 5 times a day X 7 X 365. (f)I see many christians not beleiving in Jesus's(pbuh) virgin birth,but we muslims do. (g)I see muslims fasting atlest 30 days to realize what does it feel to be hungry,which many kafirs cant even imagine (h)I see kafir drinking alcohol,doping but muslims not even touching it. Aggreed that there is backwardness in muslims but not moral backwardness as compared to kafirs.And i hope you aggree to this think that "morality is better than money" Atlast i want to repeat my words If a bad driver driving a Merc Benz hits a tree--what would you say.Driver is at fault or Merc Benz??????. So i would appreciate if we debate on what is better:Islam or any other religion and not on what muslims or kafirs do. And not to forget my question.I repeat it so that you may not forget it. "HOW DID THE CORRECT SHAPE OF EARTH IS GIVEN IN A 7CENTURY BOOK AS THIS FACT WAS FOUND IN 17CENTURY" I WANT THIS ANSWER IN YOUR REPLY(NOT A LINK BUT YOUR ANSWER) OR ELSE I WOULD THINK YOU CAN'T ANSWER THIS QUESTION.I REPEAT THE QUESTION-- "HOW DID THE CORRECT SHAPE OF EARTH IS GIVEN IN A 7CENTURY BOOK AS THIS FACT WAS FOUND IN 17CENTURY". And by the way,you use the word "kafir".Do you know what it means.It means "who hides or rejects truth".So by using the word to yourself you are yourself admitting that you are wrong. I suggets you should change your id from "Doubtless" to "Doubtfull" because your emails are full of "as far as i know", "may be" etc. [color=#993300] You assume that Doubtless applies to me.  You may choose to call me what you like.[/color] 1.I have been persiting for your concept of God but U have not given me a clear cut answer.Still i assume that "U DONT CARE TO KNOW ABOUT OF GOD".Am i right?but do tell me do U believe that God exists or you simply deny its existence.Plz be clear in this topic in your reply.I want a clear cut answer. [color=#993300] The Cosmos fits the definition of God provided by you in Sura Ikhlas.  I do not know what else you mean by God.  The common assumption that people make where God is an anthromomorphic representation of some omnipresent, omniscient, etc. being can be easily shown to be silly.  If that is what you mean by God, then no I do not believe in such silliness.  Again I do not find that there is a need to have a God as you seem to want to define one. [/color] 2.Some time ago,it was illogical to think a thing heavier than air can fly but this view was proved wrong by aeroplanes.Science itselfs changes,contradicts itself so you can never depend on it.The word of God doent need to be changed.You can depend on it.Regarding scientific facts in Quran.These facts where first in Quran and was realized by science and not vice versa., [color=#993300] Are you telling me that muslims told the world that the earth was round first because they read it in the Quran?  You that is wrong.  Kaffirs figured it out that the world was round and made it well known, and then the muslims when asked why their allah had said the word was flat started coming with weird interpretations from the Quran to tell themselves that the earth was round.  As a matter of fact ibn Baz the mufti of Mecca in 1993 stated "that the earth is flat and anyone who denies it is a kaffir". [/color] "And the earth,moreover hath he made egg shaped"79:30                                         ^^^^^^^^^^ This vesre strikingly gives the geospericial shape of earth. YOU JUST ANSWER ME THIS QUESTION --"HOW DID THE CORRECT SHAPE OF EARTH IS GIVEN IN A 7CENTURY BOOK AS THIS FACT WAS FOUND IN 17CENTURY" I WANT THIS ANSWER IN YOUR REPLY(NOT A LINK BUT YOUR ANSWER) OR ELSE I WOULD THINK YOU CAN'T ANSWER THIS QUESTION.I REPEAT THE QUESTION-- "HOW DID THE CORRECT SHAPE OF EARTH IS GIVEN IN A 7CENTURY BOOK AS THIS FACT WAS FOUND IN 17CENTURY" [color=#993300] This claim comes from translating the Arabic word Daha used in the verse.  Muslims are starting to lie about what the word means by claiming that it is derived from Duhiya which they now claims means egg of an ostrich. The translation of 79:30 by islamic scholars has been: 079.030 YUSUFALI: And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse); PICKTHAL: And after that He spread the earth, SHAKIR: And the earth, He expanded it after that. IRVING: Were you harder to creat, or the sky He has raised? He has lifted its canopy up and smoothed it off. He darkens its night and brings forth its morning glow; and the earth has He spread out besides, and produced its water and its pasturage from it. The mountains has He anchored as an enjoyment for you and for your livestock. Dahaha means expanse and the connection to an egg is silliness by idiots like Zakir Naik.  You tell me if the arabs had ever seen an Ostrich in the 7th century in arabia.  Why can you not do this research on your own?  Are you lazy? [/color] 3.Yes,you afaird of the "surah like it" challenge.I give you a scene--- - YOU BRING YOUR POEMS TO 1.5 BILLION>>HELL BREAK LOSE>>YOU GET DEATH THREATS>>BUT SOME MUSLIMS GIVE IT A FAIR LOOK>>MAY BE 1 OR 10 OR 100 OR 1 MILLION OR EVEN 1 BILLION ACCEPTS YOUR CLAIM>>YOU ACHEIVE WHAT YOU WANT. I SEE YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE IN THIS ATTEMPT.EVEN IF 10 PEOPLE ACCEPTS IT YOU ACHEIVE WHAT YOU WANT.EVEN IF NO ONE ACCEPTS YOUR CLAIM THEN ALSO YOU GET TREMENDOUS PUBLICITY.I HOPE YOU REMEMBER MY EQUATION ALSO. LOOK HOW UNBIASED I AM WITH YOU,I AM LITTERLY INVITING YOU.TELL ME,WHAT MORE I CAN DO THAN THIS. BUT I KNOW, DEEP DOWN INSIDE,YOURSELF,YOU KNOW THOSE POEMS NOT A SHADE OF WHAT QURAN HAS TO OFFER. QURAN MAKES ME CRY THOUGH I DONT KNOW ARBAIC BUT YOUR POEMS MAKE ME LAUGH.THATS THE DIFFERNECE. [color=#993300] That is upto you.  Others have seen the same surahs and have decided that your quran is just nonsense and have left islam.  And they are more than ten.  So the suras published on the net are working for people who can think and are not terrified of the boogey man allah who is going to roast them in hell for eternity. [/color] 4.How hippocriate(dont mind the speeling) you are!!!!!!!You talk of unbiased judge.What ever news you get,you get from westrn media,so how can you expect to get the truth.They will show only there side. Why will they show the fact that USA(modern day crusader) has created more violence than any other group after WWI-I.Since World War II, the United States actually dropped BOMBS ON 23 COUNTRIES. These include: China 1945-46, Korea 1950-53, China 1950-53, Guatemala 1954, Indonesia 1958, Cuba 1959-60, Guatemala 1960, Congo 1964, Peru 1965, Laos 1964-73, Vietnam 1961-73, Cambodia 1969-70, Guatemala 1967-69, Grenada 1983, Lebanon 1984, Libya 1986, El Salvador 1980s, Nicaragua 1980s, Panama 1989, Iraq 1991-1999, Sudan 1998, Afghanistan 1998, and Yugoslavia 1999,Afganistan 2003,Iraq 2004. Plz note that there are many non muslim country in the list. Plz visit this link: http://www.missionislam.com/conissues/motherofallterrorists.htm Just because you dont get the news of what happening to muslims doent mean they are living in peace.You should know what the hell of the lives have been made of muslims in many country. When Hamas man blows himself then hell break lose but when israelies kill 10 year old with rockets then no one thinks about it. USA tell other not to make nukes but itself has so much of it.What do you make if it. If All Mighty have given you brain to think,the think why does muslims take such drastic steps...............for money,fame...no to respond back.We will never tolerate innustice. Why Osama,a rich man sacrifies his comfortable life,wants to live in mountains running from here and there.Think about it ,peacfully The world knows what the intenstions of usa is--to stop terrorism or getting OIL. Shame on you,who advocates a group who in name of making world a better place has inturn made it hell [color=#993300] You have bought into the propoganda of the jihadis.  You do not know very much history of the United States and its actions.  You are merely repeating the lies that the jihadis are telling you.  The lives of the muslims are miserable because they have made them that way.  Why are the buddhists not miserable?  China, Japan are buddhists and one is now a superpower and the other is a super economy.  The bomb was dropped on Japan and the japanese are friends of USA and the japanese GDP is more than all the muslim countries put together.  Do you ever wonder why?  What are chinese doing to the muslims in the Xinjiang province?  Why?  Do you ever wonder why?  Or you are going to feel sorry for yourself and blame everyone else for the problems that muslims have gotten themselve into. [/color] 5.I thought i was making you open your eyes to signs of All Mighty rather than myself becoming blind!!!!!!!!!!!!! As far looking around is concerned,when i look , i am more than proud of being a muslim (a)I see kafirs in porns and all the immorality but see muslims gaurding there modesty. (b)I see every minute many women are raped in kafir country but not on muslim country. (c)I see westerns having divorse like changing moblies but not in muslim country. (d)I see rich kafirs accumilating wealth but even a very modest muslim giving atlest 2.5% of this wealth in charity. (e)I see chruch begging christians for"15 minutes a week" ,but muslims coming to mosque 5 times a day X 7 X 365. (f)I see many christians not beleiving in Jesus's(pbuh) virgin birth,but we muslims do. (g)I see muslims fasting atlest 30 days to realize what does it feel to be hungry,which many kafirs cant even imagine (h)I see kafir drinking alcohol,doping but muslims not even touching it. [color=#993300] Obviously you do not see very well.  You have not travelled or seen the world.  You are merely repeating the propoganda that you hear from muslims. Are you telling me that there are no prostitutes in islamic countries?  If you do then you are a liar.  Are you telling me that there is no porn selling in India?  You can talk about statistics of rape in the west because people report it here.  Who reports rape in Islamic countries?  The poor woman who is raped, if she reports she is killed by her family usually because she has brough dishonor on the family.  Look up honor killing on the web and see how much of that takes place in muslim countries.  Then under Sharia a raped woman has to bring four witness to prove rape.  Do you think that is possible?  Do you how many thousands of women are rotting in pakistani jails because they said they were raped and could not produce 4 witness and were jailed for zina?  Is that the muslim socity you are boasting about?  Just look up how much alcohol is consumed in muslim countries.  Are you telling me you ave never seen a muslim drink alcohol?  Yes muslim go to the mosque five times a day, and that is why that even the arabs like to hire non-muslims rather than muslim from india in the dubai, bahrain, UAE, SaudiArabia, etc. because they actually do some work rather than always going to the mosque. [/color] Aggreed that there is backwardness in muslims but not moral backwardness as compared to kafirs.And i hope you aggree to this think that "morality is better than money" [color=#993300] Muslims are morally bankrupt.  Because muhammed married aiesha when she was six and had sex with her when she was nine, muslims have been ruining the lives of little girls for the last 1450 years.  You consider marrying and having sex with 7,8,or 9 year old little babies moral?  How many old arab sheiks fly into hyderabad in India to marry a young girl and then divorce her the same day or next day? How many pirs, muftis, imams, etc. have preteen wives?  Have you ever opened your eyes and actually seen that?  How many of those stories have been reported in the indian newspapers?  Look at what the muslims have actually done and then tell me that muslims are not morally backwards! [/color] Atlast i want to repeat my words If a bad driver driving a Merc Benz hits a tree--what would you say.Driver is at fault or Merc Benz??????. I[color=#993300]f any one who drives that Merc Benz and ends up poor, backward, illiterate, and hitting the tree then it has to be the Merc Benz.  See what Islam has done to the muslims around the world and then think.  Why are muslims in any country, in china, in europe, in africa, in indonesia, in malaysia, in india, in arabia, in egypt, so violent prone, so backward, so uneducated, so poor, so illiterate? [/color] So i would appreciate if we debate on what is better:Islam or any other religion and not on what muslims or kafirs do. [color=#993300] If that is what you want to debate, that is fine by me. [/color] And not to forget my question.I repeat it so that you may not forget it.   "HOW DID THE CORRECT SHAPE OF EARTH IS GIVEN IN A 7CENTURY BOOK AS THIS FACT WAS FOUND IN 17CENTURY" I WANT THIS ANSWER IN YOUR REPLY(NOT A LINK BUT YOUR ANSWER) OR ELSE I WOULD THINK YOU CAN'T ANSWER THIS QUESTION.I REPEAT THE QUESTION-- "HOW DID THE CORRECT SHAPE OF EARTH IS GIVEN IN A 7CENTURY BOOK AS THIS FACT WAS FOUND IN 17CENTURY". I[color=#993300] have already given the answer to you.  You have been lied to by your muslims.  The verse does not say eggs.  Dahaha does not mean egg.  Go look up the verse in arabic. [/color] And by the way,you use the word "kafir".Do you know what it means.It means "who hides or rejects truth".So by using the word to yourself you are yourself admitting that you are wrong. [color=#993300] There you go being mentally blind like a muslim.  See how you used kaffir above in making a list of what is wrong with the kaffirs.  You used kaffir there as non-muslim and not who hides or rejects truth.  In my opinion it is Islam that rejects the truth and hence it is the muslims who are really the "kaffirs" in this sense of the word. Doubtless.[/color]