Quran or Hadith, which is more authentic?
Article was first published in June, 2009
[Editor's Note: This study presents strong reasons in support of the claim that "Hadeeth" is in fact more reliable than the Qur'an itself. The reasons behind this claim is the way Hadeeths were collected in comparison to the way the Qur'anic Suras were collected and preserved. Details below.]
The Quran is considered like the backbone of Islam although the bulk of the religion is made from the sunna, or Mohammed’s traditions, which is based on his hadiths or sayings and considered second to the Quran in its importance. Practicing Islam is impossible without sunna because the Quran doesn’t explain anything about the Islamic rituals or sharia and refers Muslims to take Mohammed’s example which only comes through his hadiths (Q.59:7).
It is frustrating that whenever ‘intellectual’ Muslims are debated they become very quick to distance themselves from any hadith that seems implicate their religion, no matter how authentic that hadith was. Denying a hadith is an easy defence tactic by Muslim apologists in their effort to maintain the integrity of Islam. Their logic is that Islam doesn’t fall by the loss of one hadith or two because Islam is kept up by the Quran. On the other hand, those Muslims are not ashamed to quote other hadiths, no matter how unauthentic they are, to boost their argument. However, most ordinary Muslims remain strong believers in both the Quran and hadith, which they rightly consider to complement each other. The main stream Muslims consider those who deny the hadith as infidels who would eventually deny the Quran as well.
Behind the declared reason for denying the hadith is another undeclared, but true, reason. The hadiths come in detailed language and with several narrations that support each other, which leaves little room for word games or manipulating the meanings. On the other hand, the Quran comes in a vague abridged and self contradicting format that leaves more room to twist the language and meanings of its words. The Quran is covered with a thick layer of haze and some Muslims use that lack of clarity to argue and claim they can see a different picture from the others.
How authentic is the hadith?
There are different collections of hadiths that Muslims consider to be the most authentic; the most well known collections are Sahih al Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. Other collections include Al Nissaey, Al Tirmithy, Ibn Dauod and Ibn Maja. Together, these six collections are called the authentic six, the Sahih Sitta.
The ‘science of hadith’ or ‘Ilmul Hadith’ is a well known and prestigious speciality in all Islamic universities. It teaches how those scholars managed to gather their collections and how they travelled the Islamic world to accomplish their objective. The methodology they used, considering its time, was exemplary. They studied each hadith in details; its text and its chain of narrations and classified them into grades according to their authenticity. Even by today’s standards, their scholarship and dedication to objectivity was amazing. Most of the two hundred thousand or so hadiths that were subjected to their thorough assessment were rejected and only a few thousands made it to their Sahih (correct) books. Their objectivity meant that many ‘good looking’ hadiths had to be rejected while others, not so good looking ones, had to be included. If Muslims can be proud of anything at all it is that objective academic approach adopted by those scholars who collected the hadiths.
Those early Muslim scholars, like Al Bukhari and Muslim, were no ordinary people; they were well informed highly educated and intelligent. In short, they were the geniuses of their time. It is laughable that some Muslims of today, with questionable knowledge and education, dare to dismiss the works of those scholars as faulty just because it happens not to go well with their biased opinions.
How authentic is the Quran?
Q.2: 106. Any verse We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We substitute with something better or similar. Don’t you know that Allah can do anything?
The above verse is a short answer to those who claim the Quran was preserved. The verse is a clear admission that the Quran contains contradicting (Muslims call it abrogated) verses, as well as verses that have been completely forgotten! But not to worry, Allah was capable to bring similar to those verses or even better!
Unlike the hadith, the collection of the Quran was politically motivated with none of methodology or high standards of scrutiny that characterized the hadiths’ collection. The vulnerability of the Quran lies in the fact that the presence of only one error, say a misplaced word or letter, is a good enough proof that the entire book is a hoax.
It is essential in Islam to believe that the Quran is the preserved word of Allah. Therefore, it has an unquestionable authenticity. Indeed the Muslims do not question the authenticity of the Quran, which is where their problem lay. The Muslims believe that the reason why Islam came to existence was the distortion which the previous holy scriptures were subjected to. In other words, the Muslims believe that Allah revealed the Quran with the determination to preserve it. With that in mind, one would expect Allah to have employed extra ordinary measures to preserve what is supposed to be the most important document to mankind. But He didn’t! On the contrary, all the circumstances created an ideal setting for the Quran to be lost, which it did.
- The Quran was revealed to Mohammed who was, as Muslims insist, illiterate and therefore unable to verify the accuracy of the scripts written for him by some volunteering scribes. Trusting Mohammed with the Quran is like trusting an illiterate person to edit a newspaper. With a document as important as the Quran, it would not be enough just to assume that the scribes were honest and trustworthy, especially that at least one of them, Abdulla Ibn Abi Al Sarh, admitted that he regularly made changes to the text of the Quran without Mohammed even noticing!(1)
- Although the Muslims claim that the Quran was completely written during Mohammed’s life time, but there is no acceptable evidence to support such a claim. It is logical to believe that the Quran was not properly written in the first thirteen years of Islam while Mohammed was still in Mecca because he simply didn’t have the resources to do it. One would expect writing the Quran to be Mohammed’s first priority after he assumed power in Medina, but he was too busy in wars to think of it.
After establishing his Islamic state in Medina, Mohammed could have ordered a formal recording, indexing and safe keeping of the most important document of Islam. Even he could have stamped it because he owned a stamp. But Mohammed did nothing of that, which indicates that he never took the matter seriously. In fact, there are reasons to believe that Mohammed actually benefitted from that chaotic state of the Quran. An undocumented Quran gave Mohammed the freedom to change his mind or contradict himself and get away with it because the earlier verses were forgotten or faded away from memory. Recording the ‘revealed’ verses in Medina took place in a casual manner that was carried out by whoever was available from those volunteering scribes. Some verses were written by more than one scribe, causing confusion, while others may never had the chance to be written at all, causing even more confusion.
- The Quran was revealed in the seventh century in Arabic, a language that had not yet a well developed script. Many Arabic words with different meanings shared the same script. The Arabs solved this problem by adding different numbers of dots to the letters that share the same appearance, but that solution came years after Mohammed’s death. As an example, the Arabic word harb, which means war, has the same appearance like a dozen other words with completely different meanings, like these:
حرب.خرب.حزب.جرب.حزن.جزت.حزت.خزن
(The above words mean: war, damaged, party, tried, sadness, rewarded, caused pain, stored)
If you strip the letters from their dots, all the words look exactly the same, and it was left to the readers’ common sense and intelligence to work out which particular word was meant by a particular script.
Ideally, for a better preservation of the Quran, Allah should have educated Mohammed and created the dots before ‘revealing’ the Quran.
The Arabs claim that their language is a superior language, hence chosen by Allah as His official means of communication. Other Muslims agree with that claim and praise the language as the most beautiful, without even speaking the language. The truth is that Arabic is a complicated language that is difficult to develop especially that it is now attached to the Quran, which is holding it back.
Even in our time, and after the ‘invention’ of the dots, reading an Arabic text is still a guess work. Arabic books and newspapers are printed without the diacritical marks to reduce the clutter around the words. The diacritical marks were ‘invented’ over a century after the dots. Without the diacritical marks, the fourth word in the above example, Jarab, could be read as follows: Jarraba=tried, Jurriba=has been tried, Jarab=plague, Jurub= suffering of plague!
- Writing technology in Arabia was very primitive and employed poor quality and perishable writing materials like palm leaves and bones.
Although we only read the Islamic history from it’s heavily biased Islamic sources, but we frequently stumble upon some historical facts like the following:
- Ibn Massoud was renowned among Mohammed’s companions as the most notable in his knowledge of the Quran; it is claimed that he recorded his own copy which he kept with him. Ibn Massoud’s copy of the Quran was significantly different from the official copy of Uthman, which he refused to recognize (2). Some verses were lost, even the ones kept in Mohammed’s own house! Aysha admitted that she used to keep the stoning verse under her bed until it was eaten by a goat! (3)
- AlHajaj Ibn Youssef Al Thakafi, the ruthless ruler of Iraq during the Umayyad dynasty, made many changes to the official Quran many years after Uthman(4).
- Political corruption, power struggle and instability characterised the period of Uthman’s rule. It was in such unhealthy political climate when Uthman ordered the compilation of the Quran.
- Uthman sent four copies of his official Quran to the various regions of the expanding Islamic state and kept one copy in Medina. None of those copies seem to have survived. There is no evidence that any of the old copies of the Quran we have today dates back to Uthman’s time. The oldest copy available, which is the manuscripts of Sanna/ yemen, dates back to many decades after Uthman and contains significant differences from the current copies of the Quran (5).
- Many Muslim scholars are aware of the weakness of the argument that the Quran was documented during Mohammed’s time. They claim that the Quran was preserved mainly in the Muslims chests, the written documentation was only a backup! Unfortunately for them, making such a claim is like digging the grave for the Quran because the main reason behind writing a formal copy of the Quran, and burning all the others, was to stop the disagreements between Muslims. The Quranic verses that were preserved in the Muslims’ chests were so different that they accused each other with kufr (unbelieving)!
The Quran is probably the least authentic document in Islam as evidenced from the state of confusion and disagreements that prevailed among the early Muslims. The early Muslims disagreed on what constituted part of the Quran and what didn’t. Ibn Massoud’s copy of the Quran included two chapters less than Uthman’s copy because he did not believe the last two chapters were actually Quranic chapters (2). Others reported that surat tauba (chapter nine, which contains 129 verses) used to be as long as surat Bakara (chapter two, which contains 286 verses) before the verses gone missing (2). Abdullah Ibn Umar reportedly said, ‘Let none of you say, “I have got the whole of the Qur’an.” How does he know what all of it is? Much of the Quran has gone’. Let him say instead, I have got what has survived (6). The enormous amounts of repetitions and contradictions could be an indication of some degree of duplication and manipulation of the original text.
According to the existing Quran, the penalty of adultery is only described in verses Q. 24:2 (flogging hundred lashes) and Q4: 15 (house detention) and nowhere in the Quran is stoning mentioned. However, Muslims agreed for fourteen hundreds years that the penalty of adultery is stoning to death because the verse, which abrogated the above two verses, was there and remains effective in its orders hukman even though its words were cancelled kawlan. We can add this logic to the pile of other bizarre justifications used by Muslims to understand the Quran. However, we have the right to ask: why Allah keeps in the Quran the obsolete verses and omits the valid ones?
References
1. Ali Dashti, 23 years, a study of prophetic career of Mohammed.
2. Al Itqan fi ulum al Qur’an - Al Sayuti. ‘Arabic’
3. Abu Bakr al Suyuti, “al Itqan fi `ulum al Qur’an”, 1935/1354, pt 2, p. 25) ‘Arabic’
4. Ibn Maja,1944, Musnad Ahmed 25784 ‘Arabic’
Posted by Mumin Salih
on May 9 2010. Filed under Quran (Koran), Recommended Reading.
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I'm afraid Allah was just an impy little jinn in Mo's head who helped him convince his gullible followers that his every base desire was divinely sanctioned. Of course, it helped the holy mission when his companions realized that they could get their share as well. Somehow, I doubt they cared much about the literary consistency of the good books written to canonize their plundering.
First let us define Authentic: Entitled to acceptance or belief because of agreement with known facts or experience; reliable; trustworthy:
By that definition very little of the Quran ascends to the level of agreement with known facts. The Quran mostly relies on unquestioned belief, supposition and faith with no verifiable sensible proofs needed or readily available. The Ahadith speak to known facts, in other words things that actually occurred or were said to have happened. Muslims learn how and when to prayer specifically, not from Quran, but from traditions and Ahadith.
The Ahadith were generally and mostly collected by Islamic scholars, who were men of learning and consummate conscientious investigate data gatherers. The fragmentary Quran was cobbled together after the passing of Muhammad by the close personal gang members of Muhammad, most being semi-literate. Such being the case the Ahadith would tend to be more authentic, while the Quran is more esoteric and spiritual.
Chiulo-Ruiz- you are one of the Zombie I have ever known.
Chiulo-Ruiz: There is another definition of authentic that would apply in this case: "genuine, not forged" – Oxford English Dictionary
What I mean is this: the writings of (eg) Socrates are thus authentic – but he believed in a terro-centric universe. Or, for another example, the writings of Newton (the Physicist) are authentic – and his laws of motion taught to this day – but they are not completely accurate (eg you can't fully predict the orbit of Mercury with Newtonian mechanics). Thus neither Socrates nor Newton are "reliable; trustworthy" in an absolute sense.
Further, on the basis that the earliest moslems (and Mo) "experienced" Islam first-hand and the later scholars "experienced" the effort of compilation of the Ahadith, then even on your definition it could be argued that the Koran and Ahadith are "authentic".
On that basis I would say that the Koran quite accurately (authentically) reflects Mohammed's (and his companions) beliefs and attitudes (both self-serving) and the Hadith quite accurately (authentically) reflect the beliefs and attitudes of moslems some 200+ years later. In this sense both are authentic.
Whether they are "true" in any sense (moral, scientific etc) is another matter entirely.
Both Koran and Hadith (Sharia and Sunnah too) certainly provide the basis for all Islamic belief, attitudes and actions since – much to the grief of the whole world.
Agreed, there is no other choice. The definition used for a word does rule the meaning arrived at.
However, " The Quran and Hadith, which is more authentic? ", the ahadith does have more sources (contributors) than the Quran. The Ahadith and Sunnah can stand on their own and tell a complete story whether such is true or false is another matter. That can not be said for the Quran which was assembled with few inputs and classes itself as literally true at all times and for all times complete and perfect.
Agreement is certain on this:
" Both Koran and Hadith (Sharia and Sunnah too) certainly provide the basis for all Islamic belief, attitudes and actions since – much to the grief of the whole world ".
Zombie – a people, person or thing being controlled as laborers by a powerful wizard. Ahahaha, OK sounds just like the pagan God Allah' minions ah, Muslims to me. An Apostate goes, comes, says, believes or disbelieves and does as they please, no Allah permission necessary or needed, the same can not be said for Islamites.
Here is the stupidity of the Quran
1. Did you know that every time when a person converts to Islam there are two verses in the Quran that become false and Allah becomes a liar and powerless?
Allah said in the quran that he does not guide those who do not believe the quran(the unbelievers).
Verily! Those who believe not in the Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, Allah will not guide them and theirs will be a painful torment. – Chapter #16, Verse #104
2. So since Allah does not guide the unbelievers to the right path which is Islam, Do the unbelievers have the choice to guide them selves and be Muslims? The answer to that question is no because this verse below tells us that people do not have the power to be Muslim without Allah's will. This tells us that people do not have free choice to be Muslim.
No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand. – Chapter #10, Verse #100
3. So now we know that people do not have the free choice to be Muslim ( quraan 10:100) and we also know that Allah said he does not guide the unbelievers. The question is why do we see people converting to Islam? It shows us that Allah is a liar or he is powerless whenever someone converts to Islam. Since people do not have free choice to believe and Allah said he does not guide the unbelievers why do we see people converting to Islam? Are those people more powerful than Allah or is Allah a liar?
These points can make any Muslim shut up even the biggest Muslim scholars because it shows them the stupidity in the Quran. Please spread these points and hopefully it will destroy the believe system of Islam.
[...] The Quran as well as Hadith, that is some-more authentic? | Faithfreedom.org [...]
In the name of peace for the enlightened and educated it is a waste of time and effort to try and change the hearts and minds of the muslim nation. They are set in their ways and will not awaken to the truth because it is from birth that the teachings have started. SO to save the world and all the reigions it is a futile attempt to even think about pushing this wave backwards. They are multiplying in number, getting more stronger and defiant and it just causes more hatred all round.
From myside – I see the Holy books written in a time dimension that was perfect for the preiod, people, level of education and so forth. Today the modern muslim scholar or not is trying to find miracles in the holy books to show modern people that their book is true and correct. This will not change because to change – it has to be a fundamental mind shift. A mind shift that many will not take because of the chasm it causes between families, friends and muslim society. The basic truth is as follows – and if you hate me for it me for the enlightenment then bless you….All religion was started by a man or more than one man with teachings that was above the normal human being in that period. Some men then wrote these down and people were told to practise the teachings. Unless GOD ALMIGHTY camed down from the heavens or dropped the book in a persons lap, it is will contain errors and mistakes that we see now, but at the time it was the best and most correct teachings, therefore these books are out of date today. Trying to explain what a word, or sentance means in today's modern culture will only cause more harm as -like the pyramid writings, these are at best translated in accordance with what we think….notice what we think, therefore what we think today and what was written 1400 years ago will not match because the people then were not educated, literate and clever. This is fundamental in the truth….I say we leave the techings and the book as they are because we cannot change it or the people that follow it. The enlightened muslim scholar should study the period in question, start of Islam, when the quran was written, most importantly where it was written and how the information was gathered and transcribed. From this period in history the muslim scholar – if true- will reflect, that at that time in life, there were universities, libraries schools of astronomy, medicine, social sciences etc. These are all factual and blatantly open when you look at Alkexandria the great, aristotle, etc. The period before islam was rich in education speculaution and the enquirying mind was the heights of science, reason and logic. Now when Islam came about, the Prophet was a business man, traveller, educated above the rest of the people, this will be experience more than school because he could not read nor write. but he also had an enquiring mind and when he met with the jewish traders at mecca, temple of pagan GODS before islam, on business trips he learnt a lot and obviously meditation may have helped, probably helped and was probably spoken to by and Angel but we dont know apart form hearsay…. who saw Moses get the 10 commandments, we only believe beacuse it was written down that way. I say leave them alone and they will find a way to overcome. GOD Bless you all, hatred will solve nothing, anger will solve nothing, if you really want to help change the thinking then you have to win the hearts and mind and you do this with LOVE and show them the way, if they argue say peace brother and on your way. I say this because we are simply dumb, ignorant and stupid and fighting proves it. Let us clearly and logically start a list of the period, the events, knowledge at that time, books and teachins, schools etc at that time and how people lived in society, and why they did certain things. This will then create a manual that is hard to disprove and if a brother asks,m explain this is why and if they get upset, then peace brother…that is the noble way.
@Mohamed /or David
wat a pathetik load of camel dung. Stik to writing comics
very well written. Although i can't find some of the refrences. Where did you get this: -
"Let none of you say, “I have got the whole of the Qur’an.” How does he know what all of it is? Much of the Quran has gone".?? NEED to know!
Thank you, education is a fragile thing but mastery of life leads to enlightment. Enlightment shows what was, what is and what lies beyond. The impact of yesterday, the effect of today and how it will affect tomorrow. what to leave behind, what to take with you and what will help you tomorrow. That is my enlightenement……not in a book, not in religion, logic…I use pure logic and reasooning power….The quran has mistakes when we look at it now, becuase tinme has changed. It was perfect then. If the quran has mistakes then it cannot be from GOD direct. Man has written it, a arabic man or men have written it. They wrote what was given to them by the followers and learned one's. WHAT EVERY MUSLIM SHOULD KNOW BUT DONT WANT TO………..The Bible we can see the people who wrote each chapter – which we call book of Simon, david, peter etc etc….The quran was written exactly the same way, people and followers, learned people at that time was aksed to provide their information and teachins as learned fromn big mo and some idiots took this detailed information down and wrote it as one piece. A true scholar will admit that it was compiled exactly the same way as the bible. Now who these idiots were is not Known, but the man who instigated the writing is known. Where was it writtin is also not known and who took charge of it after that is not known. But today it has come to be the original divine book from heaven the true word of GOD…truly did GOD write the words down, did he write the sentences or did HE give it to someone personaly —that means came down to earth met the unkown authour and gave him the book and asked him to declare it as the word of GOD….that is what every mulsim is saying….. I have the quran, I have read and dont use it at all. Now if GOD wrote the book then will be full of love and be absolutely correct in every detail or not……will it be handbound or golden and in material from heaven…..
When you study ISLAM in its entirety you need to understand the period it was written, like wine you study teh age of maturity and enjoy, same as woman, you study the age, beauty, sexiness, character etc and then make nicecccy nicccyy….ISLAM is the same, we have to look around at the time that this was wriiten. It was after big mo went up the 7 layers. well after he went up the 7 layers. so lest see then, if he went to the 7th layer, who kept all this knowledge, was there a safe, a database, no it is written in the books, the learned and followers wrote some of the details down on leaves, bones, clay,m stones etc. Now at the time of the quran being written by man, many men were dying through war and also wherevere the muslim crusaders went and captured every city and town they claimed it in the name of islam but had no literature so some dumb shithead called uthman got people together to collect and write the teachings down —- now —- I am an ordinary shihead, albeit a rich shithead but have studied all this horse shit and camel dung but can realise here is the ultimate answer —- uthman a MAN got his people to write down the teachings….lets analyse this clearly so there is no fucking mistake and pisstake from the unbelievers —-PBUThem—– Uthman got his followers to collect —collect the information and had people to testify that it was correct —— companions to testify each bit of information was correct —– so big mo – had vision (maybe true) — he taught this to men, his followers, some could recite this and some thought they might have memory problems wrote them down…after big mo ascends the 7 layers —uthman writes the quran……surely this is the word of GOD ALMIGHTY…surely I say unto you —hey fucking non believers here is the truth……UTHMAN wrote the quran —from information gathered by his camekl riding donkeys and they haqd other people confirm that this information was true and then it BECAME – nooooo it is—– the original word of GOD…fucking dickheads — have them play chinese whispers — it is a game of a few people — have them in a line 2 meters apart and give a message to the first guy, have him repeat it to the next and so forth until the end and the last guy shoust the message out —-if this is the same as the original i will eat my arab girlks nicccyyyy niccyyy…. even if you recite this hundreds of times, a human will forget…….that is for islam—-now lets look at education and the content…remember the quran was wriiten by arabic scholars, they were not mule handlers or pimps,,they were scholars,,, and where did they write this quran….My best guess is at the university of Alexandra the great…I think they took over egyt at that time and used the the library to write, but already in the university were great scholars from all over the world, yes alexandra history states that he collected books and material and had scholars from all over the world. Therefore most of the scientific stuff you find in there was put in by the scholars to make the book authentic and more believable….history….for the content please go to library and get books on aristotle, alexandra, greek, chines, indian, persian history and you will find that all the stuff was in its infancy and being investigated, some material and studies were also advanced and books existed by many famous authours…..lets look at the silk trade route, camel driving trade routes and if you look at the routes you will see that these were used by the mongols, persians, egyptians, indians, arabs, greeks, etc and many passed and stopped at the old kabaa….the kabaa was built before big mo was born, this is also in history…..the level of education around at that time was clearly divided, the free thinkers and the uneducated….i think the best movie you can watch in —- the life of brian…..and listen to the part where it says —what did the romans do for us….also it will give you and idea of the life style around that era…..hope this helps…i am not educated in any of this but pure logic and evidence provided by history and what is written in the book tells you all of the above……to me the hadith is more authentic because it does not say it the word of GOD but shows you how to live like big mo……the quran says it is the word of GOD which I just diproved above and the hadith is the way fo the prophet…i am more likely to follow hadith
Does the Quran qualify to be a Hadith?
The Hadith is generally described by muslims to be a narration of Islamic traditions.
Muslims also claim that the surahs were first given to Jibreel from Allah,who then gave it to Muhammad who then gave it to the scribes to write down.
absolute answer – no —- the quran is the so called word of ALLAH …..that is what is in question…like you mentioned. ALLAH spoke to gabriel who then came to earth 50000 years travel time later and passed this information to big mo. big mo then taught his camel dung followers to recite these sayings.. some camel dung wrote down these in case they forget, and also each person was taught a different verse, thsi is in the quran itself…over time with reciting and writing these down, they came to know all the verses dictated by big mo….so there was written material of each teaching before the quran was compiled together….otherwise this is another controversy that the quran was written 30 years or so after big mo went up the 7 layers….this is crucial… people were already reading some of the teachings while big mo was alive. i think this was noticed by one of the generals as well in the quran…see i dont read it….. big mo told him that it is more glorious to read the quran than recite it,,,or something like taht….where them camel dungs for brains now that i need them…..like the bible these teachings were all gathered after the big war with musmiyah or something like that,,this is the history part because the quran does not mention him as he was also a prophet,,but a different prophet, he used some of the teachings made his own etc and when big mo climbed up the 7 layers he tried to take over the entire arab region,…this is history,,go to library….now for the interesting part…..to compile the quran we know today like the bible all the teachings – recitals and writing were gathered by the camel dungheads and each had to testify (to whom is not mentioned) but they testified that their piece of contribuytion was the originla saying of big mo…now the shitheads put together the quran then claimed these are the original word of allah…that is written in the sunnah, hadith and quran and history….. the hadith is the way of the prophet — it teaches one to dowhat the prophet did, so if he wiped his penis with stones then they had to do it to. if he grew his bear then they did to….everything in life the prophet did, how he prayed, how he lived, bathe, have sex etc is in the hadith. the hadith is not and never was claimed to the word of allah………to me the hadith is a very reliable and believable book. it should be treasured more than the quran,,, because it shows you the weay of living a good clean life….this must be after big mo commited sexual abuse, killing, raping, robbing etc…but still kept the plaigerism bits because that is what he did. he was teaching philosophical stuff, religious stuff, stuff to help you live in a society etc…there was no science and maths etc,,,all that bullshit was put in by the scholars who made the quran so poetic that to make it believable they added the other 21 wonders of the ancient world, maths, science, astology, astronomy, medicine, sex, geography, history etc….this is my strong belief….that big mo probably taught people good stuff and did not know about the maths and science bits etc…the shitheads in rome did exactly the same with the modern bible, they compiled the bible in a way that suited them and added or took out stuff. especially woman power. the true power behing LORD Jesus was Mary. in fact both Mary….the mother and also the wife…these were left out to protect the male preaches today…and guess what you must have seen it…ok here it is again.,,,they left the woman out to protect the male preachers and they all enbded up as bum bangers…..there is nowhere in the bible, unless i am stupid or blind,,, does it ask for preachers to be men and not married,,,,GOD ALMIGFHTY made man to have wife,,,not bum bangers and there is no where in the bible again for NUNS,,,have you seen this in there,,,did my GOD ask these lovely sexy woman with lots of niccy niccyyy, very sexy niccyc nicccyyy to stay single and not get married, this is a life style choice created by the same shit heads in rome…so you see in christianity we can talk about it but in islam they will put fatwa on yourhead, because the towel is not strong enough.,,,hope this helps..if it doesnt,.. then you need to find a camel dung idiot and take the towel out and see what is written in his head….cheers
I forget to mention,,,in the compilation of the quran,,,the individual teachings were put into verses…it was not originally…to me it was another piece of information…when the shitheads compiled the quran they provided a structure and even thsi structure is incoherent, if yyou read the qurn it does not flow logically as many of the versus are repeated…unless i am wrong,,,so come on scholars show your light here….my belief is that the quran was structured after in a way consistent with writing a book but they did not think carefully about it, because of the repeations.this is my firm belief and only logic tells me this when writing a book or manuscript we have to structure it and they probably copied the style of the bible….in fact the more i think about it the linguastic way is the same as the bible,,,i did not know the jews and arabs spoke the same way, all the translations i have read show the writing is exactly the same format linguastically as the bible — example "verily" is a christian way and isreal is far from saudi, so how did they copy the linguastic style…can only be from the jews that visited kabaa and spoke to big mo..please any muslim scholars that can help me here will greatl;y appreciated
@mohamed.
I enjoyed reading your posts.
This is my favourite line."I see the Holy books written in a time dimension that was perfect for the preiod, people, level of education and so forth"
Same can be said of most religions.I guess, it is the level of introspection within the religion and acceptance of progressive visions to evolve with the times that makes a religion worthy of following.
@somaliman
Thanks for another gem of an info.I will quote you whenever an opportunity arises.
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Respects to both of you.
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It will be a shame if he does, since he is exactly like Obama. So much for having a “choice” of candidates in November.
why you may wish to outsource at…
least some of your blog writing. here are five of the most popular.1. enthusiastic start, slowly ebbs away.at the start of most projects, and blogs are no exception to this, we often have a great deal of enthusiasm, and plan to…