The Story of Bani Al-Nadeer Under Scrutiny

Ibn Kammuna

In this study, I investigate the story of the banishment of Bani Al-Nadeer, a Jewish tribe from Medina, by the prophet of forgiveness Muhammad (PBUH). No views are offered in advance, but rather the events are discussed as they come. At the end of this article, I present to the reader some of the related hadiths.

The Story
The full story can be found in “The Life of Muhammad: A translation of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah” translated by A. Guillaume – twenty first impression, 2007 (pages 437-8). A summary of the story follows this sequence of events:

1. The prophet Muhammad goes to Ban Al-Nadeer, along with some Muslim leaders like Abu Bakr, Umar and Ali, and asks them to help him in paying bloodwit money for two men of Ban Amer killed by mistake by Muslims. It is important here to remember that Bani Al-Nadeer were under no obligation to help the Muslims here. The agreement between the Muslim camp and the Jewish tribes of Medina was to help each other in case there is an external threat to attack Medina (i.e. Quraysh coming to town to attack the Muslims, or the Medinan tribes).

2. Bani Al-Nadeer tell Muhammad that they will help him with money.

3. Muhammad leaves the other Sahaba in the meeting and vanishes. He actually went back home.

4. His Sahaba leave after they realize that Muhammad is not coming back

5. When the Sahaba see the prophet, he tells them that the Jews, Bani Al-Nadeer, were conspiring to kill him. How? By having someone go on the top of the wall that was behind them where they were meeting, and dropping a rock on him (Muhammad) thus killing him.

6. Muhammad gives orders to prepare for war against Bani Al-Nadeer, and marches against them. Muhammad lays siege to Bani Al-Nadeer, who sought refuge in their forts. He also orders the burning and destruction of their palm trees (Bani Al-Nadeer were mostly farmers who tended the land and raised crops). Orders were carried out to the letter.

7. Bani Al-Nadeer receive some promises of help from other tribes that never materialized.

8. Finally Bani Al-Nadeer struck an agreement with the prophet (PBUH) to allow them to leave town with all their belongings except their weapons. This, in fact, came to pass. Some of them went to Khaiber and some went to Syria.

9. All of their left property and land became Muhammad’s. He distributed it amongst the first immigrants, and a couple of Ansars who were in need. (What a generous thief!!)

The above, pretty much sums up what happened. Please note that Bani Al-Nadeer were in no position to fight the Muslims. The reasons for my claim here is that Muhammad has become the main war lord of Medina. Earlier, he had successful attacks against the Meccan commercial caravans. He had attacked unprovoked Bani AL-Mustaliq. He had gotten rid of the Qainuqa tribe from Medina. He had just assassinated Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf, the Bani Al Nadeer leader. He suffered no consequences from all this. This, in my view, indicates that a farming community like Bani Al-Nadeer was in no position to put up a good fight against the Muslims.

So, when Muhammad went to them asking for money to help the Muslims who killed two men from another tribe, Bani Al-Nadeer were under no obligation to help the Muslims financially. But they knew what Muhammad was up to. He was looking for their refusal to pay, so that he can have a reason to attack them in war and take their belongings. However they were smart enough to tell him that they’ll help him. That answer did not sit well with Muhammad, and so he leaves in a hurry and invents the story that they were plotting to kill him with a big rock dropped from the top of a wall behind where they were sitting.

What a ridiculous story! Even a naïve person can read between the lines and see that they, Bani Al-Nadeer, could have killed all the Muslims’ leaders who were in that meeting if they wanted to. After all, Muhammad and his Sahaba in the meeting were probably no more than five or six men, sitting in in the heart of Bani Al-Nadeer tribe. Bani Al-Nadeer could have killed them all right then during that meeting. This did not take place, and we are supposed to believe that ridiculous story about the Jews trying to kill his holiness, Prophet Muhammad the First, with a big rock! Only a man with no reflective thinking ability can believe such a story.

The fact of the matter is, Muhammad wanted to attack them, one way or another. He hoped they will say no to his money request. When this did not work out, he invented the “rock from the top of the wall” story. And, amazingly enough, Muslim apologetics buy into such a story. Religious fervor blocks their brain cells, and no analytical thinking is done. They just believe a ridiculous story and move on.

Hadiths and Qur’an references related to the Bani Al-Nadeer incident

Hadith- burning of palm trees:
Muslim -Book 019, Number 4324:
It is narrated on the authority of ‘Abdullah that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) ordered the date-palms of Banu Nadir to be burnt and cut. These palms were at Buwaira. Qutaibah and Ibn Rumh in their versions of the tradition have added: So Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, revealed the verse:” Whatever trees you have cut down or left standing on their trunks, it was with the permission of Allah so that He may disgrace the evil-doers” (lix. 5).

Hadith – prophet Muhammad gets all of the Bani Al-Nadeer’s properties
Muslim-Book 019, Number 4347:
It has been narrated on the authority of Umar, who said: The properties abandoned by Banu Nadir were the ones which Allah bestowed upon His Apostle for which no expedition was undertaken either with cavalry or camelry. These properties were particularly meant for the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him). He would meet the annual expenditure of his family from the income thereof, and would spend what remained for purchasing horses and weapons as preparation for Jihad.

Hadith – Qur’anic Sura “Al-Hashr” was revealed because of the above incident

Muslim-Book 043, Number 7185:
Sa’id b. Jubair reported: I said to Ibn ‘Abbas about Sura Tauba, whereupon he said: As for Sura Tauba, it is meant to humiliate (the non-believers and the hypocrites). There is constantly revealed in it (the pronoun) minhum (of them) and minhom (of them, i. e. such is the condition of some of them) till they (the Muslims) thought that none would be left unmentioned out of them who would not be blamed (for one fault or the other). I again said: What about Sura Anfal? He said: It pertains to the Battle of Badr. I again asked him about Sura al-Hashr. He said: It was revealed in connection with (the tribe) of Banu Nadir.

Here are the links in Arabic and in English to this Sura:
This Sura is no more than a Muhammadan justification to take over the belongings of Bani Al-Nadeer, mixed with a lot of threats from Muhammad’s sock puppet, Allah.

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Posted by on Jan 17 2009. Filed under Op-Ed. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback to this entry

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  49. proudchristian

    Live by the sword die by the sword. Muslims relish their past glories which they acquired through annihilating and opressing others, now it is their turn. Every blood of innocent people that was shed by muhammad is being repaid now. By Iraqis, palestinians, afghanis, sudanese, somalis, pakis, etc. They became rich by plundering on others, now it is their turn. I see around the most poor people are muslims. What goes around comes around!

  50. jenn

    Mohammad was a Terrorist

  51. Ibrahim

    Philip for one, I dont follow any religion. I think you have not read what I wrote properly. I adressed a whole lot of issues in my post. Ranging from USA to Africa and Phillipines. Sadly you choose only to comment on Teresa. Free education huh! there are so many Non-Christian organisation who are doing better work than her. But they will never get the Media attention just because they are not Christians. Westren Media does not consider it good stuff! And who are my friends. I have only one friend in this Forum and he is Christian.
    Philip I am not judging you. Now who is judging whom?

  52. Ibrhim, I have been to New York several times. I didn't see any poor children there. Remember that in our country even poor people get a welfare check every month. Ibrahim, do "peace loving Christians" have to sell their land? About Mother Teresa again, she was not from my country. I believe that a person can go to any country that he wants if he is welcomed. Apparently, Mother Teresa was allowed to live in India. That's why she stayed there and even became a citizen of that country. Good night, it's 2:40 in the morning here.

  53. Ibrahim

    You ealier accused me and my so called friends that they are evil. Are they evil beucause they dont belive in your God. You dont belive in theirs either. In all probablities you call them false Gods. So are you evil?
    No your not Evil. Because you have been taught to worship Jesus as your God since you were a kid. There is nothing wrong with that. Even if you think that others worship false Gods that's cool. Cos you have every right to believe in what you like. Perhaps you should not extend your beliefs to others. What Christians understand as evil might not be evil to others. Just as Muslim think that the Kuffar are evil for hating Muhammad. I ask you, Philip, since I hate what Muhammad did, do I become Evil.
    Now, Philip you asked me If I had heard Teresa say the word Heathen. Did you see Jesus dying on the cross. How do you know that it is a fabricated story. How do you know that Judas was the guy who sold out on Jesus. It could very well be a myth perpetuated by some believers inorder to find a scapegoat. Dont tell me that you love Judas for what he according to you did? Or do you Philip.

  54. Ibrahim, don't forget that you have the Catholic Church and then you have Protestants. The many Protestant faiths have conflicting beliefs. My experience is that fundamental Christians sometimes get out of hand. Of course I'm against that. I didn't say that you prejudged. I am giving advice not to prejudge. However, you went ballistic because Mother Teresa called some folks "heathens." To her "heathen" was a person that did not accept the God of Christians and Jews. Okay, let's start fighting Muslims before they run over you.

  55. proudchristian

    Phillip Saenz I think you do not understand Ibrahim. Ibrahim says Islam need to be defeated not because it is a false religion but rather because it inspires its followers to be violent and as such it harms us. Islam may be false as Catholicism may be false as evangelical christianity may be false as hinduism may be false as atheism may be false! While we all recognize that religious matters are issues of personal convictions, it is ironic for muhammadans to think they got absolute truth as to reach a point of killing apostates and critics. This is his concern and this is the concern of FFI!

  56. Ibrahim

    Okay, let’s start fighting Muslims before they run over you.

    You can count on me Philip.

  57. Continuum.

    I have to say BRAVO man.

    The post you made about the similarity between Islam and Christianity is just so darn accurate, why can't the the fundies come to the defence? it has been shown that both Christianity and Islam's verses instigate violence as is the case in the Islamic Jihadists' movement so also the Christian violence in Sri lanka, India and the Christians attacks on Bhuddists' temples.

    Verses have been posted here from both these books, still the fundies say the same thing: you do not understand our religion.

    I really am astonished by the action of this man IBN KAMMUNA, if one can point out terrible verses in the quran why can't he point the same terrible verses in the bible, anybody that doubts the equality of violent statements, hatred for others and the subjugation of women in the quran and bible should re-read the post made by continuum above, how can any mental acrobat sugar-coat the above horrible verses in the two supposedly holy books without being a total hypocrite and not a really honest person? if the Christians argue that the present Christian don't do violent acts, does that eliminate the fact that the book contains violence and demands a believer to obey it? if you feel embarrassed and won't obey your book, then you are better than the god that inspired the book, infact you are not a believer of that book.

    I agree with an earlier poster who said the post made by continuum concerning the holy books' violence is better than the original post of the thread made by Ibn Kammuna, the reason is glaring, if Ibn Kammuna was a nonreligious person, then there is no need to ridicule hid post, but a Christian pointing bad thigs in Islam while his own book contains the same thing is downright hypocritical, this is why I say it is better to have no book to follow so that when individuals commit crimes, they can't hide under anybody's authorityh but themselves, people should be governed by the constitutions of their states, and if the constitution itself says things that instigates vciolence, it should be discarded and reforms should be made, but the holy books can not be reformed, they are closed system type books, so the only thing to do is to educate the people about the religion issue.

    BD ( who wonders why people can't admit the obvious )

  58. bategu

    I smell a typical aroma of an arabikan cofee sand desert booby trap here… , taqiya program to let the antiblackstone to be redirected to hare madeva camp, hooray..bum bum bum, mooslump where are you…?

  59. God


    Hi I am God, I am new here.

    You said [you feel embarrassed and won’t obey your book, then you are better than the god that inspired the book, infact you are not a believer of that book.]

    Who said that ? IBN KAMMUNA ? How dare this pathetic bigoted creature self proclaimed to be better than me. If IBN KAMMUNA thinks she is ashamed of mentioning my most "merciful" verses from the Old Testaments which was my debut revelations given to Moses. I know what to do with her in Judgment Day.

    IBN KAMMUNA just watch your back. I will strike you with thunder for cover things up. I will give you another tsunami which I did several years ago. But remember this ….. I love you all.

    Best Regards

    ( the most merciful one who gave you earthquake and tsunami )

  60. Hello God, are you there? ooops, I forgot, you are omnipresent.

    Actually I am reporting your beloved creations for refusing to acknowledge some passages in your book, as you said you probably will strike them with thunder, I as a nonbeliever in any religion am seeking forgiveness for them, I know they are embarrassed by your murderous commands, but remember you created them with some compassion in them, so if God will allow me I will like to demand for a review of the holy book to eliminate the violent, error filled and inconsistent statements in the book.

    I hope I didn't piss God off by this merciful demand.

    BD ( who hopes God won't decide to strike thunder to both myself and the people that are in denial stage )

  61. freedomfighter67

    Dear Hindu brothers,
    As you can see, I’m a new convert to Hinduism, thanks to you all my Hindu brethren here in FFI, I am very happy for the decision that I have made. I understand that FFI is for the ex-Muslims exposing the ills of Islam, but one thing that bothers me the most is not how my new found religion of Hinduism differs from Islam but its similarity. So if it is possible, I need my Hindu brothers to reassure me again that Hinduism is the absolute truth and shed the Light of Satana Dharma onto my unbelieving mind and explain to me that there is no connection between the evil Islam and Hinduism.
    The similarity goes as follows:
    1. Allah is mentioned by Name in Hindu Scriptures
    The Word “Allah”, which refers to Almighty God in Arabic, is also mentioned in
    Rigveda Book 2 hymn 1 verse 11
    Rigveda Book 3 hymn 30 verse 10
    Rigveda Book 9 hymn 67 verse 30
    There is an Upanishad by the name ALO Upanishad.

    2. Similar Verses in Hindu Scriptues
    There are several passages in the Hindu Scriptures, which have the same or similar meaning as Surah Ikhlas.

    1. Say: He is Allah, The One and Only.
    (Al Qur’an 112:1)
    It has a meaning which is very similar to:
    “Ekam Evadvitiyam”
    “He is only one without a second.”
    (Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1)
    2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.
    He begetteth not, Nor is He begotten;
    (Al Qur’an 112:2-3)
    It has similar meaning as:
    “He who knows Me as the unborn, as the beginning-less, as the Supreme Lord of all the Worlds.”
    (Bhagvad Gita 10:3)
    and “Of (check – or For Him?) Him there is neither parents nor Lord.”
    (Shwetashvatara Upanishad 6:9)
    3. And there is none Like unto Him.
    (Al Qur’an 112:4)
    A similar message is given in Shwetashvatara Upanishad & Yajurveda:
    “Na Tasya pratima asti”
    “There is no likeness of Him.”
    (Shwetashvatara Upanishad 4:19 & Yajurveda 32:3)
    Remember, the Brahma Sutra of Hindu Vedanta is:
    ‘Ekam Brahm, dvitiya naste neh na naste kinchan”
    “Bhagwan ek hi hai dusara nahi hai, nahi hai, nahi hai, zara bhi nahi hai”.
    “There is only one God, not the second, not at all, not at all, not in the least bit”.

    The Brahma Sutra of Hindu Vedanta is:
    ‘Ekam Brahm, dvitiya naste neh na naste kinchan”
    “Bhagwan ek hi hai dusara nahi hai, nahi hai, nahi hai, zara bhi nahi hai”.
    “There is only one God, not the second, not at all, not at all, not in the least bit”.
    All the above quoted verses and passages from Hindu Scriptures clearly amplify the Oneness and Uniqueness of Almighty God, the Creator of all. Furthermore, they negate the existence of any other deity besides the One True God. These verses essentially propound monotheism.
    Therefore only if one carefully studies the Hindu Scriptures, will one understand and realize the correct concept of God in Hinduism.


    If you ask some lay persons who are Hindus that how many gods do they believe in, some may say three, some may say thirty-three, some may say a thousand, while some may say thirty-three crores i.e. 330 million. But if you ask this question to a learned Hindu who is well versed with the Hindu Scriptures, he will reply that the Hindus should actually believe and worship only one God.

    (Everything is ‘God’s’ – Everything is ‘God’)

    The major difference between the Hindu and the Muslim is that while the common Hindu believes in the philosophy of Pantheism, i.e. “everything is God, the Tree is God, the Sun is God, the Moon is God, the Snake is God, the Monkey is God, the Human Being is God”, all Muslims believe that “everything is God’s”.

    The Muslims believe that everything is God’s. GOD with an apostrophe’s’. Everything belongs to the one and only unique eternal God. The tree belongs to God, the sun belongs to God, the moon belongs to God, the snake belongs to God, monkey belongs to God, the human being belongs to God.

    Thus the major difference between the Hindus and the Muslims is the apostrophe ‘s’. The Hindu says, “everything is GOD”. The Muslim says, “everything is God’s”, GOD with an Apostrophe ‘s’. If we can solve the difference of the Apostrophe ‘s’, the Hindus and the Muslims will be united.

    The Glorious Qur’an says

    “Come to common terms as between us and you”,
    Which is the first term?
    “that we worship none but Allah”
    So let’s come to common terms by analyzing the scriptures of the Hindus and of the Muslims.

  62. Halalpork786

    Nice to hear " FreeSodomyF67" barking again . This forum needs some rabid Christian and Islamic rabid dogs to perform for the entertainment of the readers. Ha Ha Ha Ha.

  63. freedomfighter67

    If what Dr. Zaik (a Muslim scholar like continuum) said is true that Hinduism has more in common with Islam, now I undestand the reason why we as Hindus divert the subject of attacking Islam into attacking Christianity and the Bible. Thus I will take this as my Hindu duty to attack the Christians with all my strength, my mind and my smell.

  64. Halalpork786

    Don't any one hold it against those rabid dogs as they are not real Muslims or Christians : They are just freshly converted Christians and Muslims from the Indian sub continent. They want to feel proud of their new found Belief system, poor rabid Dogs need some group or cult to belong to. Mob mentality. Only some vet can cure them.

  65. freedomfighter67

    How you doin Halalpork,

    By the way, are you Hindu? How come you don't like me? I always like you. Dang, this crap sounds gay as hell. Sorry. This yoga crap does make you feel feminine. No wonder why the Californians are mostly gay. I need to minimize this yoga crap.

  66. God

    Hey BD,

    You said [Hello God, are you there? ooops, I forgot, you are omnipresent.]

    Of course I am omnipresent, I was there during tsunami and 9/11. And I was standing beside Hitler when he gassed the Jews. I witness all the disasters and genocide, but I don't give a shiit about it. Who cares. It is not my problem, although I created them and gave them all the freewill to mess things up. But I don't give a damn about it. But I love them all.


    You said [Actually I am reporting your beloved creations for refusing to acknowledge some passages in your book, as you said you probably will strike them with thunder, I as a nonbeliever in any religion am seeking forgiveness for them, ]

    Oh how you have embarrassed me again by showing me that those who don't believe in me are better and kind hearted than those who believe in me.

    Since you said so, I don't see any reasons why I should continue to punish them with thunders and tsunami like I used to do before.

    By the way I do get a feelings that somehow Atheist are more better than me. I wonder why ?


    You said [I know they are embarrassed by your murderous commands,]

    Who said that, I am proud of all my satanic and violent teachings in the Torah, Bible and Quran.

    It is my believers who will be struck by thunders by me that are embarrassed of my Words. If it wasn't because of you I am sure they be all dead by now. But I love them all.


    You said [ but remember you created them with some compassion in them,]

    No this is not true, that is a lie, I never created anybody with any sense of compassion. Please don't put words in my mouth.

    If I did then Hitler wouldn't be killing 6 million of Jews, and Osama couldn't have brought down the twin towers I love most.

    I said very clear in my diaries, Torah, Bible and Quran. I said I gave all the creations freewill to sin, to loot, to subjugate women, to bash babies against the rock ( sorry I think I said that before ) , to rip open pregnant women (strange I am familiar with this one too ), to sell drugs, to genocide, to gay, to rape little girl …. etc. I really can't remember what I said, I said too much.

    However I although I knew what they will do with their freewill the moment I created them, but I still insisted to release these monsters from my factory.

    Please don't call me a liar again ok ? By saying I gave you guys compassion and yet so many criminal and terrorists everywhere will certainly make me a liar but nothing else. I care about my notorious reputation.


    You said [ so if God will allow me I will like to demand for a review of the holy book to eliminate the violent, error filled and inconsistent statements in the book. ]

    That's a good idea, but I am worried about Atheist. Once they know about this, they will call me a liar again who never sure about my creations and always change my thoughts like a weather.

    Are you sure you can take care of Atheist especially licence to flush ? You must understand Atheist are always very clever than my believers. You can't easily fool them like that.

    Please be careful when you lie for me ok ?


    You said [I hope I didn’t piss God off by this merciful demand.]

    Don't worry I won't. Because you are a non believers. Remember punishments and Judgment Day are meant for members only, since you are not yet a registered member in our club. Me, Adam and Eve, Jesus and the talking snake have no right to do anything to you.

    However you are your spouse and some family members including non believers friends are sincerely invited during the party of Judgment Day to witness how I love my creations by hell fire.


    You said [BD ( who hopes God won’t decide to strike thunder to both myself and the people that are in denial stage )]

    I am not sure about myself neither, therefore I am not sure I love my creations or hate them when I created useless hell to torture them ? Can you help me to explain to the unbelievers ? Tell them why I have to torture sin people whom I gave them freewill to sin in the first place. And yet I punished them over something I allowed by hell fire. Please.

  67. God


    Hi there, it is nice to see that you survive from the bombardment of the Jews in Gaza.

    Oh yes before I forgot, since you are a Muslim, please choose an event for the Judgment Day. Just download the application forms from my Harem and fill it up. I am sure the virgins will guide you how should you have any doubts.

    Any way how do you like my recent works in Gaza ? Will you believe me more after I helped the Jews to kill your people there ? Will you pray more often to me now knowing that you are a loser compare to Jews ?

    Keep in touch with me ok ? For I am God.

    Who always there in Gaza to witness the killing of Muslims

  68. Ibrahim

    Champion of Islam thank you for your post.

  69. uvwxyz

    56. freedomfighter67 Says,

    'All the above quoted verses and passages from Hindu Scriptures clearly amplify the Oneness and Uniqueness of Almighty God, the Creator of all. Furthermore, they negate the existence of any other deity besides the One True God'.

    You are absolutely right.

    Then you further say,

    "If you ask some lay persons who are Hindus that how many gods do they believe in, some may say three, some may say thirty-three, some may say a thousand, while some may say thirty-three crores i.e. 330 million. But if you ask this question to a learned Hindu who is well versed with the Hindu Scriptures, he will reply that the Hindus should actually believe and worship only one God."

    If I say both are right, that is the commen Hindu as well as the learned Hindu, both are right that it becomes very confusing to you. Isnt it??
    But there is no confusion, if you go deeply,

    Learned hindu is saying FOOD is God and the common hindu is saying Roti is god, parantha is god, cake is god, beans are god, sweet dish is God.
    The Sagun Roop ( Menifested god) is just a form of the Nirgun Roop ( Formless, omnipresent and omnipotent unmenifested God)

  70. wagamama

    So Freedomfaarter67, you also clean the t0ilet of Zakir Naik. Wow.. but don't eat anything there. Now coming to your question on the concept of God in Hinduism, it always says ONE. There are innumerable avatars/incarnations. Whenever semitic evil doers are on the rise, at that time that force will act to establish Dharma. Anyways, the different demi-gods you see control various forces of nature. For example, Agni is fire; Varun is water; Vaayu is air and so on. Remember these forces of nature are not God but they are under the control of that Supreme.

    Now tell me when Romans were putting iron rods up into the gaanD of Jesus, why did he call for help saying "O Father why have u forsaken me?". Now you want him to be back. Mate, when you offer him f0ul smelling BBQ how can he come out of coma? I suggest you something different. Provide him Gulab Jamoon, Rasgulla, Jalebi, Halva, Mysore paak and other mouth-watering dishes. I am sure he will open his eyes, remove his only piece of cloth, n start running around the town like a wild man. By doing this, he will have fulfilled the prophesy of returning as well as enjoying mouth-watering dishes…. Howzzat??

  71. Halalpork786

    I thought the gender called Neutral (gay) does not hold good for the animals: I mean Rabid animals. But our "FreesodomF67" has proved me wrong. Ha Ha Ha Ha The rabid doggy claims itself to be a Gay. What else one can expect from a freshly converted Christian from India? I thought Freesodomy can find a Rabid B!tch as a life partner instead of " ChimpofIslam" as a life mate. Ha Ha Ha Ha

  72. Marie

    Ibrahim wrote:

    "Tell me something the are’nt there street kids in western countries who are Christians? In NY alone there are so many people who live on the streets. Why dont these missionaries help them. OR are they done with their agenda there?
    So many Black Christians in Africa die out of poverty in Africa. Look at the Philippines. Look at the condition of the people living there. Why dont these missionaries help them?"

    There are Churches and Christian charities in New York city that are devoted to helping the Homeless. But the reason why there are so many homeless people in NYC is because housing is so expensive and taxes are high. Many people are leaving the city to go live in where I live which is upstate New York, or to the South. Other reasons why there are so many homeless people in NYC is because they have no jobs, are mentally ill, or are too dependent on the government to help them.

    There are also Christian missionaries in Africa and the Philippines that are trying to help the people.

    Also tell me where in NYC did you see street children? While there are many homeless people in NYC, I have never seen any children begging in the streets.

  73. Ibrahim

    Listen Marie, that was something between me and Philip. If you wish to start a debate on how the Christian missionary operate in South Asia I would be more than happy to do so.
    By the way those Missionaries help people with a hope in their heart that these people will ultimately conver to Christianity. I dont know if there is reward for that or not, nor do I care for that. Ultimately the actions of the missionaries which are imporatnt than what the Bible says.

  74. Marie

    Ibrahim wrote:

    "Listen Marie, that was something between me and Philip. If you wish to start a debate on how the Christian missionary operate in South Asia I would be more than happy to do so.
    By the way those Missionaries help people with a hope in their heart that these people will ultimately conver to Christianity. I dont know if there is reward for that or not, nor do I care for that. Ultimately the actions of the missionaries which are imporatnt than what the Bible says."

    Dude I do not want to get into a debate with you, I was answering your questions.

    Also you never answered my question, so I will not bother having a discussion with you.

  75. bustFreedomFighter67

    It should be obvious enough to everyone that FreedomFighter67 is actually a muslim employing typical quranic teachings of deception. He claims to be a hindu but is actually satirical in all his sayings and trying to deflect the attention from islam = pure evil.
    FF67, the difference between hinduism and islam is
    a) hinduism has allowed itself to be reformed with times.
    b) you can be an atheist and yet be a hindu. HIndu scriptures do not inspire to kill unbelievers.
    c) you will never see a hindu convert being killed for changing his religion by other hindus
    d) even if there are some stupid practices , they are not done to harm people of other faiths plus majority are against such superstitous practices.. again those people are not declared unbelievers and killed
    e) hindus do not kill non-hindus invoking BHagwad gita
    f) Hinduism says god is inside you and in all of his creation
    have you heard sceintists calling some particle caled god particle because that is supposed to be the indivisible component that makes up entire universe.


    I will soon be sending my compilation of a scientic rebuttal to Zakir Naiks "Science and Religion".
    Here are some points for you to think about
    a) he says allah is neither he nor she. then why the hell choose a language for his word that has no pronoun to refer to him Why is referred using "HE". very stupid of allah ain't it?
    wait .. allahs stupdity does not end here.. he does not want you to eat pork because it is unclean(copied from torah) but anyway let us take naik's argument..
    pork is not good for health: science says even red meat is not. infact diabetics are forbidden from eating any red meat.
    swine eats excreta: why did allah give muslims intestines which have all the shit in it.. when you clean an animal for eating , do you find shit in its intestines..??
    –mo-ham-had recommends drinking camel urine to treat ill people.. now what on earth was allah thinking.. drink camels urine for get rid of diseases..

    rest in my book

  76. Naradan

    I think FF67 is a evangalical Christian, not muslim. He writes same crap in the Times of India with the name Bharat. His intention is not to uplift Dalits but to convert them to Christianity. He seems so frustrated that inspite of alleged indignities heaped on Dalits by Brahmins the former prefer to stay hindus to converting to Christianity. Evangalising is billion dollar business in India.

    I myself come from a Dalit background. At school I didn't have all the books the curriculum dictated, at home it was penury. Yet I managed to complete studies and got a job that eventually lifted my family from poverty. Same was the case with Mr. K.R. Narayanan whose family was wallowing in penury but he managed to go up to reach the position of President of India. And what about Dr. Ambedkar, Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, same story. The greatest saint in Kerala, after Aadi Sankara, Shri Narayana Guru was born in a Dalit family, acquired mastery in Saskrit and became a scholar in Sanatana Dharma and a guru to millions.

    The real problem with people, any people, Dalit or Brahmin, is that they lack will to uplift themselves through education; I have heard stories about great men having studied their books under street lamps on empty stomach. Without that kind of resolve, none can come up in life in this highly competitve world. If FF67's intention is to uplift Dalits then he should find ways and means to educate them instead of crying hoarse, complaining to President of US; what the hell US President can do with the affairs of Indians in India? As and when Dalits are educated the first thing they will do is adopt family planning thus reducing their number to half of current 300 million. When it reachs half, Brahmins will find it difficult to get Dalits to clean their toilets and that in turn will make them beg to Dalits for their services? Understand? Simply multiplying like pigs will only add to their miseries.

  77. Jenn said it all when she said that "Mohmmad was a Terrorist." But nowadays Muhammad's followers like Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Kaeda, are the terrorists. I know that others, like Satan, will start ranting about he distant past in order to divide, but that will not solve the problems of today. Fight on, intelligent people. Let's see what we can do about the evil Muslims that are at present killing, raping and torturing. Dear nice Muslims. I'm indicting only the evil Muslims who are also preying on you too. I'm condemning especially the long bearded, Muslim male perverts that are raping little girls everyday. Nice people, be careful and don't get carried away when satanic people try to divide and conquer. The best thing to do is not even read their nasty misinterpretations and sometimes outright lies. I have learned to ignore these creatures who rant and rave. If you are truly a nice person, then I know you can ignore and pray for the wayward creatures who try to pass as good persons but down deep are "ravenous wolves." Thank you and may the God of Christians and Jews bless you. Keep up the good fight against the horrible violence that is occurring now.

  78. Halalpork786

    Ibn Kammuna says

    '–the banishment of Bani Al-Nadeer, a Jewish tribe from Medina, by the prophet of forgiveness Muhammad (Piss Be Upon the Pedophile)–'

    And 1400 years after the death of Pedophile prophet of Islam , now and only now the Jews have a chance to pay back the Degenerate followers of Pedo Mo in their own coin.

  79. freedomfighter67

    There is no other way to fight the expansionism of Islam but through non-violent Hindu ways such as Yoga and Kama Sutra. The Israelis are fighting the Muslims the wrong way in Gaza. Only through appeasement and dhimmitude can we obtain peace on this earth in accordance with Hinduism. You can not fight a sword with a sword but through meditation. It’s very simple really. I’ll give you an example. When Muslims try to kill you and behead you because you’re worshiping a god with multiple hands, just assume the meditation pose by crossing your leg on a squat position, and touch both your index fingers and thumb to achieve the best mantra and close your eyes. I promise you this will work because Muslims will fall in love with you right away for demonstrating your courage as a Hindu follower. They will not cut your throat right away but will probably laugh their asses off first and then will proceed to cut your throat when their tired of laughing. I know you’re still dead but at least you can buy time to transform into a sacred cow once Krishna will save your existence. This is how peace on earth will be achieved through non-violent Hindu way. Trust me on this one because I have seen the ultimate truth through Hinduism.

    Now for the Jews that was massacred by the Muslims long time ago, I can’t blame them for not fighting because maybe they tried to be as peaceful as Hindus also. They should have accepted the life of dhimmitude like the Hindus in Bangladesh, Pakistan and Kashmir and in some part of mother India. Look how peaceful these countries are now. All of these countries are thriving with blessings and prosperity. Poverty and corruption is non-existent in these countries and all because of the peaceful means of fighting evil. You can also fight evil through vegetarianism. The competition to acquire Halal meat is no longer needed thus minimizing predatory urge amongst Muslim and Hindu population. So what if Hindus are required to wear an identifying scarf on their arms, as long as it is colorful and vibrant and the design conforms with the latest homosexual taste Beverly Hills can offer. I’m telling you people, just be happy and gay and everything will be alright.

  80. Practicing yoga will not pick the "untouchables" from Hindu gutters.

  81. Ibn Kammuna

    Hello Guys and Gals,
    I am almost done reading Sami Alrabba's book "Karin in Saudi Arabia". Some of the stories are just unbelievable to bear. The evil lying within that kingdom is just too much. I have believed, and published many articles to show, that Islam is evil and Muhammad is Evil Incarnate. However, I was theoretical in my analysis. But this book show a practical aspect of Islam as it is in real life, in a country that follows its edicts. I just cannot believe that the west keeps shutting its mouth to the Saudis and what those evil rulers there are doing. It is Oil that we care about in the west. We need it, and so we veil our eyes from seeing the pains and sufferings of people living in Saudi Arabia. By the book folks. Its great knowledge that awakens our minds, hearts and souls. Peace

  82. Ibn Kammuna

    I meant "Buy the Book" folks. Sorry about the typo

  83. My friend Ibrahim, we don't need poor people to come to this country, but we take them anyway. Some of you have talked about our so-called untouchables. Friend, did you know that anyone in my country who doesn't work receives a government check at the expense of the tax payers who are mostly Christians. It's true.And did you know that even the so-called homeless receive a welfare check. And did you know that these so-called homeless are homeless because they choose to do so? It's true. These so-called homeless could live in a half-way home if they wanted to, but refuse because they don't want to live with others. Okay, about the Muslims being the main enemy. Maybe you haven't been reading my letters. Over and over I have said that we should not deviate from our main objective, to fight against the cruelties of Islam. But over and over some writers here keep going to the distant past pointing out the crimes that happend so long ago. So why do your writers keep pointing out the crimes of the distant past when we cannot do anything about it? How can we alter the distant past? We can't but your friends keep going back to very old history? Why? We can alter the crimes of today if we all pool our energies for that cause. About my hating others. Sir, I don't believe that I know how to hate others. I'm an authentic Christian. That means that I'm very easy to get along with. The choice is yours. Be nice and I will allow you to be my friend. Don't worry about me. Like I said, it's very easy to get along with me. About Mother Teresa. Heathen might have meant something else to her, if indeed she used that word. Did you ever hear her say "heathen"? Your letter was the only letter that caught my eye. I skipped all the others because I'm sure they were dealing with ancient history. Besides, I don't like rants. Now tell me, do you hate Christians? I don't hate anyone of other religions. Be nice and we can be friends. May God bless you Ibrahim.

  84. Dear Ibrahim, I reread your letter above. Why can't you love everyone regardless of his religion. What's your problem? Why can't you be my friend? Apparently, you're not a Christian. A Christian with the grace of God can love everyone. Don't forget that our religion, which I take seriously, teaches us: "Love your enemy." Do good to those who persecute you." Why don't you ask God to lead you to the true faith? Have you ever done that? I'm a Catholic. I cannot malign anyone. Some of your friends are very evil. I can see that. I know that some of your friends hate Jesus. During Jesus' time there were people like some of your friends. That's why Jesus was crucified. They hated Jesus because of His of his stringent message. Thank you for being sincere when you said that you don't like me. That's okay friend. Practice the message of Jesus, and I'm sure we could become authentic friends. Did you resent it when I said to "practice the message of Jesus"? If you did, then you have a problem. Ask God to soften your heart, and you'll see how much easier it is to get along with others.

  85. Oh, by the way, Ibrahim, remember when you said that we needn't the poor to help us? I said that we don't need them, and it's true. Did you know that sometimes the poor come here only to collect welfare checks. It's true. And did you know that we are being swamped by illegal immagrants? And did you know that when some of them become very sick or get hurt through their own fault, we pay their medical bills at the expense of the taxpayers who are mostly Christian. Ibrahim, let me say it again, we don't need poor people to come here, but many of them are breaking their necks to get here. There are about 14 million illegal immigrant now, and some of them are on welfare at the expense of the taxpayers, who are mostly Christian.

  86. Ibrahim

    Philip I understand that you dont want poor people in your country. I have no objections to that. Even we Indians are sick and tired of feeding the Bangladeshis who are mostly illegal immigrants in our country. I am not in favour of immigration in the first place. This is why I left a Western Country where I was staying earlier before. I really dont feel that refugees and people who dont have any skills have a right to migrate to others countries where they demand to be fed and pampered by the natives. You have every right to oppose these immigrations into your lands. I understand how you feel, as my land as been invaded twice. Once by the Muslims and then by the Christians Europeans. I understand the pain you feel when you see underserving people occupy your land. However the majority of Hindus who migrate to the West are neither poor nor are they uneducated, lacking skills. I can count many names of Indians who have made great countless contributions to the West in terms of economy as well intellectual contributions in the realm of science, literature, buisness, etc. These people wear their Americaness or Britishness on their hat. They feel proud to be Americans. Isnt America the land which is formed by immigrants. Or does the colour of the sking bother you Philip? There are plently of American Indians specifically Hindus who consider being American their only identity. Being an ethnic Indian comes second for these people. These people migrate to foreign shores because they lacked opportunities in the past. However this trend is reversing, atleast in my country. My Indians are returning to India, in view of changing economic conditions. I hope there comes a time that no India has to leave his country for any purpose than pleasure.
    Do you know I hate colonization, whether its through immigration or through forceful occupation of land, or through prothysing a foreign faith in someone else's land. And I am not hippocritical, it goes both ways.
    Now as for why we cant be friends. To be friends one needs to have a few things in common. While we can make superb Allies, friendship is something different Philip. Friendships are based on mutual common appreciation of culture. When you call my people poor and feeding on your money, its a little difficult for me to be friends with you Philip. Yes I know there are some Indians too who do stupid stuff. But why are you painting all Indians in the same colour. I too hate these buggers who go to Western lands begging for alms. However most of them are not like that. Now then Philip, it really does not matter to me if you are a Christian, or a Buddhist. All that matters to me is that Islam is a deadly religion which needs to be fought. If you wish to be on the side of truth and freedom, I am your ally. I will stand besides you through thick and thin. That is what matters right now.

  87. Ibrahim

    Philip, every religion except Islam teaches others to love Humans. Eastern philosophies extend that to the level of loving all living creatures. While you love all being a Christian, Ivan the Terrible killed so many Tartars in the name of his Lord and converted them to Christianity. Those Spainish people who killed the Indians were also Christians. Being a christian is no guarentee that you will love others. Ofcourse I am not saying that Ivan was following Jesus when the slaughtered those Tartars. But then again can you guanrantee that every Christian is like you?
    How you feel about others has more to do with the way you were brought up rather than the religion you follow, ofcourse except if you were a raised in a believeing Muslim family. There are so many Jains who would not even hurt a fly. Buddhists would not even think of harming a human. So what the big deal Philip. Yours is not the only religion that preaches love and brotherhood.

  88. proudchristian

    Ibrahim, well said. Remember that atheists and hindus started this hate game. FFI is for criticizing Islam, period. The fact that they can't hold their grudges and utilize every opportunity they get to spite their venom against christianity, is beyond me. However, I think, we as christians can help them to hold their venoms. Just by stopping preaching them about Jesus in this site. I think they hate christianity so much so that mentioning the name Jesus is simply provokative to them. So I beg non muslim here to stop promoting his/her belief (I was one of them) rather focus attacking our common enemies, allah, muhammad, suicide bombers, mullahs, mosques, quran, ahadiths, kaaba, mecca, medina, al aqsa, wahhabi, zakir naik, etc!

  89. Ibrahim

    One more thing Philip, I dont hate Christians and I dont hate Muslims. If I say that I hate Muslims I would be including a huge extended famil;y of mine in that hatred. Just because I dont hate some one does not mean I need to love them. Do you know why Philip, because that is the law of my ancestors. We Indians dont hate anyone. Had we been hateful, there would not have been Christians and Jews and Bahais and mebers of foreign faiths living amogst us since the last 2000 years. Every community came with nothing to my land and prospered while living as equal citizens. How old is the concept of democracy and Freedom of religion in the Western world Philip, 200 or 100 years. We Indians have been praticing it since the last thousands of years because its ingrained in our psyche. But now things are going out of control, foreigners wsih to subjugate my country using religion as a tool. Native Indian converts to desert faiths are becoming antagonistic to their nation because of the the hateful sermons that tell them that your ancestors are worthy of ridicule. In a senario like this its a bit difficult to keep the calmn.
    You say that you dont hate anyone and at the same time you say that you hate the poor who come to your country. Isnt this hippocracy?
    Now as far Teresa is concerned. She was no saint for me. All her operations were duly finaced by the Heathens of India partially with an abundant help from the Vatican. She was not out here to help the people. She had a mission to reap souls in India. This she did quite well. Tell me something the are'nt there street kids in western countries who are Christians? In NY alone there are so many people who live on the streets. Why dont these missionaries help them. OR are they done with their agenda there?
    So many Black Christians in Africa die out of poverty in Africa. Look at the Philippines. Look at the condition of the people living there. Why dont these missionaries help them? Or are they only concerened with reaping souls? Today the Christian chruch in places like Mizoram where Christians are the majority tells people who they should vote for, isnt this a great way of ovetaking India's politics. Isnt this coloniozation. A place like Goa, where again the majority are Christians have in the past under the Portugese rule demolished more temples than one can count. Even today a non Christian cannot live in a Christian locality in Goa. Do you know why, because the peace loving Christians wont sell the bloody heathens their land. In a city like Mumbai a Hindu cannot have his religious celebrations because the Christians say that this is Devil worship. Today we Indians are becoming stangers in our own land. Thanks to the efforts of the Peace loving European Christian Missionaries and the Sayyed Mullahs who think they are Arabs. Indian is being divided by forces ruling from outside.
    Thanks to our charity that we showed to the those poor immigrants, today they have successfully divided our people.

  90. Ibrahim

    Proud Christian
    How do you know that those claiming to be Atheists really are not Muslims? How do you know that?

  91. Ibrahim, I don't think you have read my letters very well. I said that I don't hate anyone. Now, what does skin color have to do with my religion? And there you go again, bringing up ancient history, talking about Ivan the Terrible, et cetera. Have many times do I have to say that we should forget ancient history, and try to solve the problems at hand? Who cares about Ivan the Terrible, who didn't practice Christianity? Again, I ask, how are we going to solve the problems at hand if are always discussing ancient history? It's incredible. About Mother Teresa, I asked you if you heard her say "heathen"? Be honest. Okay, I looked up heathen in the dictionary. HEATHEN — "One who belongs to a tribe or nation that does not acknowledge the God of Judaism or Christianity." If I know Mother Teresa, that's exactly what she had in her mind when or if she used the word "heathen." Ibrahim, always give people the benefit of the doubt. Don't prejudge. Wait and see if the person is truly evil before you say anything. Pray for discernment. Why do you and your friends continually bring up ancient history when at this very hour little girls are being raped by old Muslim male perverts with inpunity. Remember that this could happen in your country if you don't get busy and do something NOW. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I SAID TO FORGET THE PAST? And how many times have I mentioned that there are authentic Christians and hypocrites? Don't you have hyprocrites in your religion? I'm not ashamed of the truth. Yes, we have hypocrites in our religion. We have pretenders. Don't you have them? Aren't there any poor people in your country? What's wrong if I say that there are people in your country that need help? I don't know about you, but I enjoy helping others, no matter who it is. Why did so many in your country hate Mother Teresa? She was a living saint, and she never meant any harm on anyone. One more thing, millions of immigrants here have children. These children get free education and a free lunch every school day. We Christians don't mind helping others. But we do mind when the same people we are helping are biting our hands. That's our main complaint. May God bless you Ibrahim. Pray for discernment. Don't prejudge. Check out the person well before you decide to be or not to be friends.

  92. Ibrahim

    Before I forget, Philip let me add a few more things here. A few months back there was a huge controversy in North Indian Chruch of Believers regarding Christians going Yoga classes. They made the absurd claim that these Christians were being led into infidelity by the Yoga masters because they were using Vedic chants. First of all these Yoga masters dont go door to door selling their religion as members of certain other faiths do. They dont ask people to buy their God with the cliams that he cures all sorts of diseases. Secondly Yoga is an Vedic tradition. If the Chritian chuch has a problem with that then they can ask Christians to stop going there. Secondly even if the Yoga masters are preachig their religion somehow. Why does the Chruch get pissed? Or is prostysing the exclusive preserve of certain groups? In the 60's there was a hue and cry over people converting to Hare Krishna, who according to me are nothing more than cults and dont represent the Vedic culture at all.
    The Priest who appreared on TV said that the Yoga maters should use Quranic Nasheeds instead of the Vedic chants because according to him a desert fools creation is better than the creation of Indian scholars. So his hatred for the native culture was apparent. He went on to justify Islam in his hatred for Indian culture. In his hatred he forgot that justifying Islam means that he believes in its message and hence the pupose of Chritianity is redundant.
    I have yet to hear any sort of condemnation of any terrorist strike by the Christian Chruch in India. Since the last 1400 years Islam and Christianity have been opossing each other, each one claiming that they have the true message of God. Yet the Christian Chruch chooses to sleep with the Devil. In case of a terrorist strike they ask the Government to introduce a quota for minorities. Isnt this working their own selfish interets? Tell me now Philip after all this why should I love you or be your friend when you dont speak against your Chruch. I have for one spoken against my ex-Faith as well as the incorrect practices and customs in Hindus. Can you do the same, Philip. Can we expect a condemnation of the the Christian missionary work and the Christian chruch in India?

  93. [...] your boss be your Facebook friend? Part I: On reflection. « Hannah, just breathe… The Story of Bani Al-Nadeer Under Scrutiny | Faith Freedom International SF Bay Area Housing Opportunities Interview: So You Want to Own a [...]

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