The Illusion of Reforming Islam
Since, thanks to Islamic terrorism the interest to know Islam has picked and Islam has come under scrutiny, the westerners began asking where are the moderate Muslims. Well, there is none. The concept is absurd. Muslims view this issue differently. You are either a ‘good’ practicing Muslim or a bad wishy-washy Muslim. It’s the latter group that the westerners have misnamed moderate Muslims. As far as Muslims are concerned they are ‘hypocrites.’ Not surprisingly, the ‘moderates’ also confess of being hypocites. They will tell you they believe in Islam but they are not good Muslims. In the back of their minds however, they plan to become ‘good’ Muslims once they have done all the ‘sins’ and enojyed life enough.
Islam is really a bad religion. The problem with Islam is with its sacred book and not just with its followers. Taking advantage of this confusion, a breed of Muslims has come up with the idea of “reforming Islam.” A few of these “reformers” have also gained some recognition among the unwary westerners who have placed their hopes on them , even though they are ignored and derided by fellow Muslims at large.
In this article I would like to discuss whether Islam can be reformed.
Let us consider the etymology and meaning of ‘re-form.’ Reform derives from Latin refōrmāre, which means to redeem, to reclaim, to renew. All these imply restoring something to its original shape.
Before talking about reform in Islam let us first take a look at reform in Christianity.
The Christian Reformation
The Christian Reformation began as an attempt to reform, not the Christianity, but the Catholic Church. Many believers were troubled by the Church and its practices, such as the sale of indulgences (tickets to paradise) and simony (buying and selling church positions). They considered these as false doctrines and malpractices within the Church.
Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, John Calvin and other reformers protested these and other practices and beliefs of the Church such as Purgatory, devotion to Mary (Marina veneration), the intercession of and devotion to the saints, most of the sacraments, the mandatory celibacy for the clergy (including monasticism), and the authority of the Pope.
None of these are doctrines of Christianity. These were practices of the Church. The reformers protested against the Church. They did not defy the authority of the Bible. They suggested that the Bible should be read literally. They rejected the allegorical interpretations of the Scriptures and took the texts of the Old and New Testaments as something like statute law. The words meant what they said; any difficulty, contradiction, or obscure meaning was the fault of the reader and not the text.
Anything not contained explicitly and literally in the scriptures was to be rejected, and anything that is contained explicitly and literally in the scriptures was to be followed unwaveringly. source
This is the essence of Protestant Reformation
The Islamic Reformation
An analogous reformation also took place in Islam. This reformation was Salafism.
Many westerners, erroneously believe that Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab, (1703–1792) is the founder of an extremist sect of Islam. This is not true. Abdul Wahhab did not found a new sect. He was merely a reformer of Islam in the same way that Luther was of Christianity.
The core of Abdul Wahhab’s thinking is that Islam was perfect and complete during the days of Muhammad and his companions and its decline is the result of religious innovations (bid‘ah) and that an Islamic revival will result through the emulation of the three early generations and the purging of foreign influences from the religion.
The concept that Islam was perfect in its early stages is asserted in the Quran.5:3
الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الإِسْلاَمَ دِينًا
Today have I perfected your religious law for you, and have bestowed upon you the full measure of My blessings, and willed that self-surrender unto Me shall be your religion.
Abdul Wahhab, proposed that Muslims should refrain from any innovation and follow the examples of the salaf, (“predecessors” or “early generations) hence the name Salafis.
Salafi: سلفي, takes the pious ancestors of the patristic period of early Islam as exemplary models.
This belief is not an invention of Abdul Wahhab but is based on a hadith that reports Muhammad’s saying:
The people of my generation are the best, then those who follow them, and then those who follow the latter (i.e. the first three generations of Muslims).[Bukhari 3:48:819 and 820 and Muslim 31:6150 and 6151.] (Tabi‘in and the Taba‘ at-Tabi‘in,)
In another hadith Muhammad, noted:
In order to demolish the western myth that Abdul Wahhab was the founder of Salafism, it is import to note that ibn Taymiyyah (1263 – 1328) was also a Salafi. Ibn Taymiyyah opposed the celebration of Muhammad’s birthday and the construction of shrines around the tombs of Sufi ‘saints’ saying: “Many of them [the Muslims] do not even know of the Christian [Catholic] origins of these practices. Accursed be Christianity and its adherents.”
Early usage of the term Salaf appears in the book Al-Ansab by Abu Sa’d Abd al-Kareem al-Sama’ni, who died in the year 1166 (562 of the Islamic calendar). Defining the term al-Salafi he stated, “This is an ascription to the salaf, or the predecessors, and the adaptation of their school of thought based upon what I have heard.” He then mentions examples of more scholars who were utilizing this ascription.
There is a hadith where Muhammad says, “I am the best Salaf for you.” [Sahih Muslim: no. 2450]
The desire to reform Islam and go back to its original pristine state is actually an old thought. Abdul Wahhab, however, succeeded to give shape to this concept, which took ground thanks to the Saudi kings who are his descendants through one of his daughters.
The Similarities between Christian Reformation and Islamic Reformation
There are many similarities between Protestantism and Salafism. The former rejects devotion to Mary and saints and their intercession. The latter rejects devotion to Muhammad, his intercession and the intercession of Islamic holy men (such as practiced in Shiism). Both these reform movements want to take their respective faiths to their original purity and eschew the innovations that have been added to the religion after the death of their founders.
Dr. Ingrid Mattson, the woman who was invited by Hussein Obama to represent Muslims in the interfaith prayer of the Democrats Presidential convention, and who is the president of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), when asked whether Wahhabism is an extreme right wing sect of Islam, responded:
No it’s not true to characterize ‘Wahhabism’ that way. This is not a sect. It is the name of a reform movement that began 200 years ago to rid Islamic societies of cultural practices and rigid interpretation that had acquired over the centuries. It really was analogous to the European protestant reformation.
The Outcome of Reform in Christianity
Although Christian Reformation and Islamic Reformation are almost identical in their scope and methodology, the outcome has been very different. The literal reading of the Bible became the underpinning of the social theories and organization of Protestant societies and the foundation of social organization of the English colonies in America.
These reformers literally transformed the philosophical, political, religious, and social landscape of Europe. We still live in a society dominated by protestant theory of social organization.
American political discourse is essentially Calvinistic. In other words its social organization is based on the literal meaning of Christian scriptures.
According to Calvin and Zwingli, not only should all religious belief be founded on the literal reading of Scriptures, but Church organization, political organization, and society itself should be founded on this literal reading.
Luther wrote a letter to Pope Leo, (which resulted his excommunication from the Church) in which he explained the substance of his ideas. The letter is entitled “On the Freedom of the Christian.“ This letter explains the core of Luther’s thinking. According to Luther, the essence of Christianity is “freedom,” or “liberty.”
It is this concept that eventually gave rise to the notion of individual freedom, political freedom, and economic freedom.
Most of the European Enlightenment revolves around freedom and the project of “liberating” people: liberating them from false beliefs, false religion, arbitrary authority, etc.–this is, what is called “liberation discourse.” Westerners still participate in this Enlightenment project today.
That is why America invaded Iraq, to prevent a dicator taking control of most of the world’s oil reservers, to liberate Kuwaitis and a decade later, to liberate the Iraqis. That is why America has fought nearly forty wars abroad, from Japan to Germany, to Italy, to Panama to Nicaragua, to Kosovo, to Vietnam, to Korea, to Angola, to Somalia. Whether these wars were right or wrong, the motivation has been always the same, to liberate people, to stop dictators, to export democracy and freedom. This idea of “liberating” people, of democracy, so entrenched in America’s international politics, comes out of Luther’s idea of “freedom.”
(For those who attack me because I speak of Luther, let me make it clear that I am not defending his anit-semitism. I am merely definig the concept of Protestant Reformation. Let us seperate the issues.)
Other factors have also played a role in these wars, such as protecting the economical and political interests of America. However, the underlying denominator has generally been liberating people from tyranny. Liberating people and defending American interest are not mutually exclusive.
There have been exceptions where America has acted purely out of self interest, disregarding the wellbeing of the people. One example is the ousting of the democratic Dr. Mossadq, the Prime Minister of Iran, in 1953 and reinstating an inept puppet king who turned a dictator.
This is not the discourse of the liberals. The liberals have no desire to liberate anyone. They are happy to deal with the most oppressive regimes with no concern about how they brutalize their people.
The Outcome of Reform in Islam
What is the essence of the reformation in Islam? The essence of the Wahhabi belief is that man is not free but a slave of Allah. People are Ibad. (slaves)
This is diametrically a different discourse from the discourse of Protestantism and here is the essential difference between Christianity and Islam.
On the surface, there are many similarities between Christianity and Islam. Both believe in a God, both rely on an intermediary between man and God, both faiths are eschatological – have a hell, a heaven and an afterlife, etc. However, in their core, they are very different, in fact opposite to one another. The reformatio of both these faiths took the same road, but seaking the origin of their faith, they went opposite directions. Islam is not a continuation of Christianity, as Muhammad and Muhammadns claim, but it is an anti Christian belief in its core. Christianity advocates freedom of man, Islam, his slavery. One brings the message of liberation, the other, of submission.
The discourse of freedom, so essential to Christianity is contrary to what Islam stands for. When Muslims carry placards that read “democracy is hypocrisy,” and “freedom go to hell,” during their laud demonstrations, they are expressing the true essence of Islam, which is anti freedom, anti democracy, pro slavery and pro subjugation.
Muslims are not free to choose, but they should obey Allah and His Messenger. The Quran.33:36 says:
وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ وَلَا مُؤْمِنَةٍ إِذَا قَضَى اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَمْرًا أَن يَكُونَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِمْ وَمَن يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا مُّبِينًا
“And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying.”
It is not up to Muslims to decide what is good for them. This decision is already made for them and all they have to do is to obey, even when they don’t like it.
كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِتَالُ وَهُوَ كُرْهٌ لَّكُمْ وَعَسَى أَن تَكْرَهُواْ شَيْئًا وَهُوَ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ وَعَسَى أَن تُحِبُّواْ شَيْئًا وَهُوَ شَرٌّ لَّكُمْ وَاللّهُ يَعْلَمُ وَأَنتُمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ
Fighting is ordained for you, even though it be hateful to you; but it may well be that you hate a thing the while it is good for you, and it may well be that you love a thing the while it is bad for you: and God knows, whereas you do not know. (Q. 2:216)
Islam can be distilled in its name: ‘Submission.’ Allah knows best. Therefore man must accept his command, blindly and unwaiveringly.
Democracy means the government of people by the people. In Democracy men make the law. In Islam the law comes from God. Man must obey even if those laws appear contrary to reason and are oppressive.
This is the reason why “moderate” Muslims cannot oppose stoning adulterers, killing the apostates or other abuses of their fellow practicing Muslims, and their protests do not go beyond a lip service, and that too is only for the consumption of the western media.
Both Christianity and Islam underwent through reformation. They took similar paths, but they ended up in two opposite poles. While Christian reformation brought freedom, Enlightenment and democracy, Islamic reformation bore terrorism.
Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Abdul Wahhab were reformers of Islam. Among the contemporary Islamic reformers we can name Maududi (1903 – 1979) who wrote an interpretation of the Quran and Sayyid Qutb, (1906-1966) the leading intellectual of Muslim Brotherhood in the 50s and 60s, who was the inspiration to all Muslim terrorists including Ayatollah Khomeini and Bin Laden.
Reformation vs. Transformation
What today’s so called Islamic reformers are proposing is not reformation but transformation of Islam. Unlike the above mentioned reformers, these new reformer wannabes do not want to go to the origin of Islam, but rather they want to eschew part of the Quran and the entire Sharia and invent an entirely different religion, still calling it Islam.
This is delusional thinking and impractical, both logically and logistically. It is also strictly prohibited in the Quran.
These neoreformers want to change Islam to something different. They want to bring bid’a to Islam. Is that possible? Can believers have an opinion contrary to what the Quran says? We already saw that the Quran 33:36, prohibits the believers to have any choice in their OWN matter when Allah and his Messenger have made their choice. How can they decide what is good for the RELIGION?
When the Quran says, “Fighting is ordained for you, even if you don’t like it,” the message is clear. This is God speaking. That is what you have accepted a priori. So how can you dispute with God? Once you accept the Quran as the word of God you cannot pick and choose and discard what you don’t like. This is strictly prohibited, not once but repeatedly.
أَفَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِبَعْضِ الْكِتَابِ وَتَكْفُرُونَ بِبَعْضٍ فَمَا جَزَاء مَن يَفْعَلُ ذَلِكَ مِنكُمْ إِلاَّ خِزْيٌ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَى أَشَدِّ الْعَذَابِ وَمَا اللّهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ
Do you, then, believe in some parts of the divine writ and deny the truth of other parts? What, then, could be the reward of those among you who do such things but ignominy in the life of this world and, on the Day of Resurrection, they will be consigned to most grievous suffering? For God is not unmindful of what you do. (Q.2:85)
أَفَغَيْرَ اللّهِ أَبْتَغِي حَكَمًا وَهُوَ الَّذِي أَنَزَلَ إِلَيْكُمُ الْكِتَابَ مُفَصَّلاً
6:114 “Am I, then, to look unto anyone but God for judgment [as to what is right and wrong], when it is He who has bestowed upon you from on high this divine writ, clearly spelling out the truth?”
وَإِن تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَن فِي الأَرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَن سَبِيلِ اللّهِ إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلاَّ الظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلاَّ يَخْرُصُونَ
6:116 Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but guess.
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَكْتُمُونَ مَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَيَشْتَرُونَ بِهِ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلاً أُولَـئِكَ مَا يَأْكُلُونَ فِي بُطُونِهِمْ إِلاَّ النَّارَ وَلاَ يُكَلِّمُهُمُ اللّهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَلاَ يُزَكِّيهِمْ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ
2:174 Verily, as for those who suppress aught of the revelation which God has bestowed from on high, and barter it away for a trifling gain – they but fill their bellies with fire. And God will not speak unto them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He cleanse them [of their sins]; and grievous suffering awaits them.
See also 16:89 39:23,
كَمَا أَنزَلْنَا عَلَى المُقْتَسِمِينَ الَّذِينَ جَعَلُوا الْقُرْآنَ عِضِين فَوَرَبِّكَ لَنَسْأَلَنَّهُمْ أَجْمَعِيْنَ:
Q.15: 90-92 Such as We send down for those who make division, Those who break the Quran into parts. Therefore, by the Lord, We will, of a surety, call them to account,
وَلاَ مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللّهِ
Q. 6:34 there is none that can alter the words of Allah.
لاَ تَبْدِيلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللّهِ ذَلِكَ هُوَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ
Q.10:64 There is no changing the Words of Allah that is the Supreme Triumph.
وَاتْلُ مَا أُوحِيَ إِلَيْكَ مِن كِتَابِ رَبِّكَ لَا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِهِ وَلَن تَجِدَ مِن دُونِهِ مُلْتَحَدًا
18:27 And recite that which hath been revealed unto you of the scripture of your Lord. There is none who can change His words, and you will find no refuge beside Him.
How can one claim to believe in the Quran and disregard all these warnings?
The so called reformers of Islam are misguided at best and deceptive at worst. Their efforts should not be welcomed. Whatever their intention, whether genuine or malicious, they are pulling wool over the eyes of non-Muslims and as the result giving legitimacy to a very dangerous creed.
The Good, The Bad and the Ugly:
Muslims can be classified in three categories, the good, the bad and the ugly.
The good Muslims are those who follow the Quran and the examples set by Muhammad and become terrorists.
The bad Muslims are those wishy-washy Muslims who don’t practice Islam completely, don’t read the Quran, don’t pray and rarely, if ever, go to mosque. Their knowledge of Islam is deficient even though their faith may not be necessarily weak. However, because of their lack of understanding of Islam they don’t harbor ill feelings towards non-Muslims, although they are often suspicious of them and they strive to improve their lives and live like others.
Many of these bad Muslims will admit that they are not good Muslims and hope that eventually they will summon enough faith to become good Muslims. These are the majority.
The ugly Muslims are those who know the truth about Islam but lie about it. They try their best to portray Islam in a good light. They even agree with you that the good Muslims are bad, and claim that Islam has been hijacked by the good Muslims.
Only truth can set us free. By sugarcoating Islam you cannot change its nature. You can purify filthy water and drink it. You can even purify urine into drinking water. But can you purify gasoline enough to make it drinkable? The essence of Islam is evil. It is not a contaminated good faith. You cannot reform it enough to make it a humane faith. Can you reform Nazism? This whole notion is misguided and absurd.
What is the point of reforming a religion founded by a mentally deranged man who committed so much evil on Earth, who lied, decieved, rapied, tortured, raided, looted, massacred and committed the most despicable crimes? Why keep his cult alive and his memory honored? That man deseves scorn, not recognition?
Reforming Islam is impossible. It is either a dilution or a ruse. Jiahd is based on two pillars, war and deception. I don’t want anyone to be fooled by the soothing promises of Muslim reformers. Moderate Islam does not exist. It’s a myth.
I prefer jihadi Muslims to these “Muslims against Sharia,” fellows. With the jihadis I know my enemy. I do not trust Muslims who are against Sharia. I do not understand them. What they say does not add up. I don’t know what they are up to. I do not trust people who say, I am a follower of Muhammad, but I do not follow Muhammad. There is something fishy, something dishonest and hypocritical about their claim.
If you are a Muslims, be a Muslim. I do not agree with you but at least I know where you stand and where I should stand to be safe from you. But if you are a Muslim and against Islam and the Sharia, I don’t trust you. You are either a fool or a crook. “You are neither hot nor cold. I will spit you out.”
Some of these so called reformers hide their identity and face claiming to ‘fear Muslims.’ Why should they? They are not saying anything that CAIR does not say when it wants to Con Americans with Islamic Ruse. This is all sham.
Reforming Islam is impossible, but to transform it you need divine authority. Only God can change his words. Where is that divine authority? If you are allowed to pick and choose from the Quran, why Osama Bin Laden should not have the same right? Which Islam is the right Islam? Wouldn’t this lead to more division and fight among Muslims?
The only serious reformer of Islam was Baha’u’llah. He realized Islam cannot be reformed. So he founded a new religion and announced that he was vested with authority from God to annul all His previous mandates in the Quran.
He told Muslims, whereas before you were told to slay the unbelievers, now God wants you to love all the people irrespective of their faiths. Whereas before He told you women are deficient in intelligence, beat them if you fear they may disobey you, now He says men and women are equal and give preference to the education of your daughters, because they will be the mothers an the primary educators of future generations. Whereas in the previous dispensation God told you all non-believers will go to hell, now He says it’s your deeds that matter and your faith without good deeds is worthless and that He is not going to discriminate against anyone because of his belief. It’s the purity of heart that matters not what you profess with your tongues. Whereas before He had built a huge rotisserie to burn humans for disbeleif, He has actually shut it down. He wants you to obey him for the love of Him alone and not because you fear him. Just act as mature people. There is no threat. Whereas before He said ”fighting is good for you,” now He is tired of all the fighting and says fighting behoove the ferocious beasts and choiced deeds behooves humans. Whereas before you were promised virgins, there are no virgins. Your body will rot here. The rewrds are all spiritual in nature, like joy and love. There is no hanky panky in paradise. Also there is no punishment, except the regret that you’d feel for losing the chance to develop spiritual limbs in this world.
That requires courage. Now this was in 19th century in the middle of Shiite Persia. Of course Baha’u'llah was put in a dungeon and spent the rest of his life in exile. Many of his followers were executed. However, there is a logic in that argument. The logic is that only God has the authority to abrogate His laws. This logic remains valid, until you ask, what was God smoking when he sent Muhammad? Baha’u'llah is the only credible transformer of Islam. But again, Baha’i Faith is not Islam. It’s entirely a different religion.
You cannot reform Islam and you cannot transform it. All you can and should do, is dump it. Please, let us stop this charade. Either be a Muslim and do as Muhammad said or leave Islam and don’t become a shield for the terrorists. Don’t muddy the waters. Don’t mix among the enemy and pose as a friend. This is the same tactic that Palestinians use in war. They mix among civilians and innocent children to make it difficult for their enemy to target them. You are causing confusion. You provide a protective shield for the enemy. I am not writing this for you. I know you are not going to change. You are a deceiver. I am writing this for the non-Muslims so they do not fall into your trap and don’t provide for you free podium to deceive them.
Islam cannot be reformed. They tried it in every imaginable way. The Mu’tazelis tired it, the Sufis tried it, hundreds of old and new schools tried it and they all failed. If you cannot stomach the Sharia, why do you want to keep Islam at all? Islam belongs to the toilet of history. Dump it and flush. Get rid of it and don’t fool yourself with this nonsense. Accept the truth. Yes truth matters. Islam is a lie. Mhammad was a mentally sick conman. Get over with it and stop this ridiculous farce of reformation.
Posted by Ali Sina
on April 18 2009. Filed under Free Thought.
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It is possible to accept some of Luther’s writings and reject others because he is not the messiah, not any messiah. He was a simple mortal man.
He studied the scriptures from his early years in the church. He saw blatently wrong behavior based on a misunderstanding of the scriptures and thus, a lack of faith that lead to legalism. Legalism leads to human law instead of divine law, and rigid dictatorialism instead of grace and mercy. It also can lead those same people who are dictatorial toward others, to find ways to justify their own particular sins.
Thus, Luther was right on somethings and totally wrong on others. Christians are not told to blindly follow any mortal human, but to follow Christ. Instead we are told to “test the spirits” and to search the scriptures to see if a teaching is true. So Luther’s ideas regarding salvation through grace lead to the reformation. They also lead to the understanding (once again) that Christians are to each read the scriptures for themselves individually rather than only be taught by others.
Martin Luther provides more evidence, of which we have much, that satan can fool and sidetrack any mortal human being, no matter how well versed in scripture he or she may be. The scriptures tell us that when we are helping others who have fallen, we should be aware that we could fall into sin as well if we are not watchful of our own thoughts, attitudes and choices.
I recall reading something about Luther being warned at some point not to post his antisemitic writings for public reading, but he did so anyway, and died three days later. I don’t remember the details of that story, but it appears that he was dealt with by God for his actions. God is the true judge.
I believe that Luther did the primary work of helping to bring the Church back to salvation through grace, just as the scriptures teach. There was so much hierarchy in the church at the time, the common people were literally prohibited from reading the scriptures. They began to read them anyway, thank God.
Islam is like an ugly, smelly, hateful, foul-mouthed, irredeemable old hag. These hopeful reformers can give their beloved hag tons of cosmetics, deodorant, lip-stick, powder and rouge to try and hide the ugliness but this will change nothing. She will still remain a hag.
The only decent thing to do is to bury her. Deep, deep underground, never to be heard from or seen ever again.
Ali,
A very good article. I do agree with your assessment of the reformation in Christian history. It was the Church that needed reformation, really its leaders needed it the most. The Bible states that to whom much is given, much is required. Other verses in the NT make it plain that church leaders will come under more scrutiny than the average person in God's judgement of men. Most christian leaders understand this, at least all of the ones I have ever met.
Very well-thought article. Thank you brother. Just to add a little note.
I am very impressed not with Ali's understanding of Islam, since he grew up in it, but with his accurate understanding of Christian history and the reformation era. I just need to add that in addition to "Main Line" reformation movement, there was another movement that wanted to reform the way Christianity was lived by establishing a church of the people through following the teachings of Christ and avoiding "official" church completely. Those were the Pacifist reformers; not known much in main line reformation, but their influence was great indeed. One of the largest pacifist churches nowadays is the Mennonites. Their history goes to a group of their founders. The most well-known name is Menno Simons. There were others too who established other Christian groups (The Brethren Church is another one)..etc. Peace to all
Ali Sina, that was the best article I have seen from you in a while. It is direct and to the point. I am going to link it as a "source" material for my better understanding of Islam.
Additionally, your understanding of the Protestant movement is exactly what I was taught in college.
Again, I tip my hat to you sir.
Democracy is un-Islamic: Swat cleric http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Democrac…
" True Muslims should not be free to choose, but they should emulate Muhammad."
Yes, They MUST-APE MonkeyMAD the Pervert Profit$$$$$$!
@Humanist
Your right, this is one of Ali Sina's best articles. The popular view of religion in the West is that their all the same. We even see this view propagated by many users on this site.
I would say that this popular misconception of religion is one of the primary reasons why the arguments proposed on this site are not resonating in mainstream society.
"Islam will reform just like Christianity has reformed" or "Christianity has violent verses too!" the Western Leftist argues.
This view is propagated by most Western academics. Unfortunately the history of the Protestant reformation that was taught to you in college, is not the same as its being taught to the college students today. I'm an undergrad and I see the revision of history happening in most every class I attend, and it is frightening.
The Taliban marches unhindered, takes over Islamabad….The Nukes fall into their hands…They threaten India….Diplomatic upheaval….They transport some Nukes to the middle east (read Iran / Iraq)….They now threaten India and Israel….Unlike the Indian politician ( Read Chakka – Translation – Eunuch) the Israelis take the nukes out within Iran…The Muslim world goes berserk….The Taliban launch a nuke into India…..The world wakes up…..Indians begin the slaughter in-house….Muslim baby blood all over India…Village after village town after town…They have nowhere to run…The Indian army marches on Pakistan….The world watches NATO thinks Muslims can still be pacified peace can be reached…Unfortunately this is the voice of "the moderate Muslims" who have taken over NATO….The blood shed in India is graphically described in the mosques of NATO with a lot of spice added….The Muslim communities in these lands bring out the years of accumulated arsenal…. The Thames, The Seine and The Scheldt turn red with blood, Christian blood….Muslims unleash barbarism unknown to these countries and unseen for generations…..NATO starts to regroup….Europe and America join the war to save themselves, India and Israel….The superior technical firepower first stops, and then begins to push the Muslims back….The Allied forces gain inch by inch in the middle east and the sub continent….14 terrible years later slowly but surely the followers of truth and righteous win…Terms of surrender is to ban Islam….The Muslims insist and the politicians agree not to ban, but reform…..We still don’t learn, and leave for our children a cult which will not reform but will wait for strength and the circle of life will come to haunt us for centuries to come.
Yes Ali is right to say reformist muslims already failed. But it's not that Ali is
wining. It is islam that emmerging victorious from Somalia to Iraq, Afganistan to
Indian subcontinent. Be honest to admit there is none to stop islam of allah and
mohammad. Scrutinise the 1400 hundred years history of islam. I think never it was so ruthless so barbaric so inhuman in his global conquest the way we witness today. The message of islam is loud and clear, either surrender or go
to hell.
This must be a joke. Americans wanted to protect their interests in middle east and so they invaded Iraq and Kuwait. Liberty my ass. If you are so gullible enough you can believe it.
This must be a joke. Americans wanted to protect their interests in middle east and so they invaded Iraq and Kuwait. Liberty my ass. If you are so gullible enough you can believe it.
Each of these wars have specific set of circumstances.
Japan started with Pearl Harbor incident. Germany was threatening whole of Europe and America with its expansionist policies. Both these countries were a threat to America. So America acted. Where does freedom come into picture. It was survival of the fittest.
America wanted to control Panama to advance US interests ($$$$) in Central America.
In case of Vietnam it was a war against communism and part of wider strategy of "containment" (against communism) and prevent domino-effect to secure American interests all over the world.
Infact every American war fought abroad is to protect its own interests.
Words like "freedom", "liberty" etc. are for consumption of naive American citizens.
What a load of BS?
Motivation is to secure American interests abroad. That is why America assassinated so many democratically elected people all over South America. Mr. Ali Sina, are you working for some government agency or are you so ignorant of history really?
You are surely not a dumb person. The question is why do you knowingly lie?
I do not understand why sensible people have to praise EVIL MEN for any purpose?
Martin Luther's idea of "FREEDOM".
I would like to ask Ali Sina, how is this "freedom"? This man Martin Luther is as evil as Muhammad and grants freedom ONLY to Christians, just as Muhammad grants freedom ONLY to Muslims.
Your article is misleading. Reformation of martin Luther is aas evil as Salafist ideas. ONLY you have little knowledge on these issues.
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html
The above link gives the quotes on writings of this evil man Martin Luther.
Thank you Ali Sina. I enjoyed your article very much. I have read lot of materials about reformation but the beauty of your article is that you have put the essence in a nutshell. However the fact remains that the people in general are cling to ritualism of a religion that to the truth of it. Hinduism, Islam and Catholicsm have a common thread. These religions contain lot of ritualism. I know many Catholics in Australia who do not read the Bible frequently but recite rosary every day with the family , do the way of the cross, and go to Mass and involve in church community activities.
What Voltaire said of the people is true of a religion. ”When it begins to reason, all is lost.” American Historian Will Durant is correct when he said "Catholicism gave us beauty without truth, and Protestantism TRIED to gives us truth without beauty. I suspect that in the end beauty will win." He reveals the secret of Catholicism. “The advance of science leaves Catholicism untouched, because Catholicism does not pretend to reason; it builds on faith, and appeals to the senses and the imagination, rather than to the intellect. When sense and hope are satisfied, the mind remains at rest. That is the secret of Catholicism"
When the protestants stop reading the Bible they ceased to be Christians but not the Catholics.The fact is that not everyone is fond of reading. I have found Islam and Hinduism thrives because of ritualism.
I agree with you that the reformation had given freedom and liberty to Christianity that there are around 10,000 Christian denominations poped up after the reformation.
# 19, 20
Dear Continuuam1, just as a coin has two sides, every suject under sun has two sides. Unfortunately you are trained to see the negative sides. USA had lost 400,000 soldiers in the WWII not to find oil but to Stop Nazism. I have read all the letters exchanged between Winston Churchill and Franklin Rooswelt. USA fought communism in Korea and lost 64,000 soldiers and in Vietnam 68,0000 soldiers not to find oil but to stop evil communism. Do you agree that after the fall of communism in Russia there is peace in the world, at least in Nicargua, El Salvador, Angola, Mozambiqe, etc? There is no more KGB inciting violence and CIA countering it. When Saddam Husein invaded Kuwait, USA was awaken to the fact that 70% of oil to the world comes from Persian Gulf. USA gets only 20% of its oil requirements from the Persian Gulf. However USA watnted stop Sadaam capturing other oil producing countries. Continuum1, it is very very difficult for a democratic country to send its soldiers to other countries for its foreign policy. It is very difficult to convince the opposition parties and its citizens. Yet I admire the way American leaders and American people sacrificedd their men for the good of the world. Is there anything wrong defend their own interests?
Again. If Nazism did not have an expansionist policy, like China has today, America would NOT have bothered at all. The circumstances forced America to act, otherwise their own interests and even their existence would have been at stake. This is the reason they acted.
As far as common Americans are concerned, there may be many reasons. I cannot debate on that.
The question is what was American government's motivation? As always, it is to preserve its self-interests abroad. Have you heard about "containment policy"?
Human history is full of examples. One empire competing to contain or destroy others. The reality is much more complex than mere fight between so called good and evil. It is about survival.
I am happy that communism was nipped and wish for complete destruction of communism and Islam, two most dangerous enemies of humanity. However, I cannot accept lies without exposing what is the reality.
The reality is that this world is run by $$$$ and power. It has always been so and it will continue to be so. Decisions will be based on this factor, not freedom and democracy. They are good concepts, but reality is NOT dictated by ideals alone, but the main factor that determines the coarse of world is self-preservation, power and wealth. I do NOT blame America for this as long as they do NOT unnecessarily harm other countries, but let us NOT create an illusion and pretend that America stands on some high moral ground justifying some brutal crimes such as attempted murders of foreign heads of state in South America because they refused to peddle American interests in their countries at the risk of their country's peril (economic, social etc.). I cannot also codone America for supporting Taliban and training terrorists like OBL at one point.
I cannot imagine how a country and its policy makers could NOT see that they were feeding snakes and because of whom so many Indians died in Kashmir etc.
Ali, Martin Luther did retain much of the Catholic teachings of devotion to Mary. My Church denomination is Lutheran. I listen to both Catholic radio and Television and it is a fact that Lutheran did retain devotion to Mary in honor of her, even though it is not a practice in the modern Lutheran Churches. Most protestants do not know about this.
roman wrote:
USA had lost 400,000 soldiers in the WWII not to find oil but to Stop Nazism.
Unfortunately that is the kind of crap they teach in American colleges and universities. In fact that was what I was taught in college. It's seems continuum has fell under the spell of his ideologue professors.
continuum1
I learned about Luther's bigotry not from the media, not from some leftists, but from a Christian pastor and author John Hagee. He, along with several others, has made it one of his goals to inform Christians of the history of anti-Semitism in the church, and for the church to avoid it in all of its often disguised forms. A number of christian leaders have called on Christians to reject so called "replacement theology", which is fundamentally anti-Semitic as well as unbiblical, and to support the right of Isreal to exist in peace.
Christian writers have laid bare the ugly details of church leaders of past centuries; how they were bought and paid for to maintain the status quo of a few wealthy families, etc. They do this because of the biblical warning that "judgement begins with the house of the Lord". We are exhorted in the Bible to clean up our own house first, before telling others how God wants us to live. The values we are told to abide by are the Ten commandments, summed up by the Golden rule: Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself.
average american wrote:
continuum1
I learned about Luther’s bigotry not from the media, not from some leftists, but from a Christian pastor and author John Hagee. He, along with several others, has made it one of his goals to inform Christians of the history of anti-Semitism in the church, and for the church to avoid it in all of its often disguised forms. A number of christian leaders have called on Christians to reject so called “replacement theology”, which is fundamentally anti-Semitic as well as unbiblical, and to support the right of Isreal to exist in peace.
The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod denounces Luther's antisemitism.
Luther's Anti-Semitism
Q. What is the Missouri Synod's response to the anti-Semitic statements made by Luther?
A. While The Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod holds Martin Luther in high esteem for his bold proclamation and clear articulation of the teachings of Scripture, it deeply regrets and deplores statements made by Luther which express a negative and hostile attitude toward the Jews. In light of the many positive and caring statements concerning the Jews made by Luther throughout his lifetime, it would not be fair on the basis of these few regrettable (and uncharacteristic) negative statements, to characterize the reformer as "a rabid anti-Semite." The LCMS, however, does not seek to "excuse" these statements of Luther, but denounces them (without denouncing Luther's theology). In 1983, the Synod adopted an official resolution addressing these statements of Luther and making clear its own position on anti-Semitism. The text of this resolution reads as follows:
WHEREAS, Anti-Semitism and other forms of racism are a continuing problem in our world; and
WHEREAS, Some of Luther's intemperate remarks about the Jews are often cited in this connection; and
WHEREAS, It is widely but falsely assumed that Luther's personal writings and opinions have some official status among us (thus, sometimes implying the responsibility of contemporary Lutheranism for those statements, if not complicity in them); but also
WHEREAS, It is plain from scripture that the Gospel must be proclaimed to all people–that is, to Jews also, no more and no less than to others (Matt. 28:18-20); and
WHEREAS, This Scriptural mandate is sometimes confused with anti-Semitism; therefore be it
Resolved, That we condemn any and all discrimination against others on account of race or religion or any coercion on that account and pledge ourselves to work and witness against such sins; and be it further
Resolved, That we reaffirm that the bases of our doctrine and practice are the Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions and not Luther, as such; and be it further
Resolved, That while, on the one hand, we are deeply indebted to Luther for his rediscovery and enunciation of the Gospel, on the other hand, we deplore and disassociate ourselves from Luther's negative statements about the Jewish people, and, by the same token, we deplore the use today of such sentiments by Luther to incite ant-Christian and/or anti-Lutheran sentiment; and be it further
Resolved, That in our teaching and preaching we take care not to confuse the religion of the Old Testament (often labeled "Yahwism") with the subsequent Judaism, nor misleadingly speak about "Jews" in the Old Testament ("Israelites" or "Hebrews" being much more accurate terms), lest we obscure the basic claim of the New Testament and of the Gospel to being in substantial continuity with the Old Testament and that the fulfillment of the ancient promises came in Jesus Christ; and be it further
Resolved, That we avoid the recurring pitfall of recrimination (as illustrated by the remarks of Luther and many of the early church fathers) against those who do not respond positively to our evangelistic efforts; and be it finally
Resolved, That, in that light, we personally and individually adopt Luther's final attitude toward the Jewish people, as evidenced in his last sermon: "We want to treat them with Christian love and to pray for them, so that they might become converted and would receive the Lord" (Weimar edition, Vol. 51, p. 195).
From The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
How come the WELS have never commented like the Missouri Synod about Martin Luther & his anti-Semitic views. It’s common knowledge about his writings and views about the Jews. Have you never heard of the book about called “The Jews & their Lies”. In particular he called for a movement (could it be another protestant reformation) that the homes & synagogues of the Jewish people to be burned & torn down. He also wrote and spoke freely about their money and businesses should be taken away and when they were out in public they should not be allowed a safe passage. I know as a Lutheran that you believe that Luthers 95 thesis was a basis for the invention of a new Christian Faith. I am confused how you actually believe that God inspired him to start the movement based upon his grievances with the Catholic Church and not also accept all his teachings, including those of his views toward the Jews of that time. I also believe in the book of Concord you are to unconditionally except do certain things to be a Lutheran. If this is the case I see some hypocracy & scandal also in the past of the Lutheran faith. I can’t understand how any Lutheran can not question everything that Luther wrote and did (including his 95 thesis) once they become aware of his frame of mind and his views regarding the Jews. If you are to believe Luther was inspired by God then why not embrace everything he did…. Blindly with faith…. If he was correct about the Catholic Church of that time, than maybe he was correct about the jews too.(I don’t think so, but as a Lutheran it sure can make you think about your founder and his beliefs differently) Or are you willing to say he was wrong about the Jews but in the next breath say he was correct about the Catholics. Modern day scholars believe that his beliefs about the jews in the 1500’s tainted the views of modern day Germans from the reformation until the jewish holocaust. His written word in Germany was seen almost as important as that of the bible. Many people believe that because of Martin Luther and his movement, his written and verbal views allowed & reinforced the mistreatment of Jews and eventually helped the German to justify the holocaust. Luther’s own words were used by Hitler to justify and support what happened during WW II. It’s hard to read Luthers views and not have a vision of Germany during WW II, a Germany where Jews were moved from their homes and places of worship & not given protection by the government. Why haven’t the WELS become more open with their members about everything Martin Luther believed in during his movement. The question truly that should be asked is “who truly inspired him?” and “was it truly God”. Why not Luthers 100 Thesis instead of the 95, it’s what he believed. Even in his last sermon days before his death, from the pulpit he spoke poorly of the jews and how they should be treated. Many believe he wasn’t inspired, but just an eccentric sometimes “angry” person who had many views. When any Lutheran finds out this closet secret about Martin Luther it should shed a whole new light on Martin Luther and the role he should really have in any religion and even make you question the basis of your Lutheran denomination back to it’s inception. I am sure you won't respond or post this on your web site as I know that you are not anxious for your flock to know of this. My friends who are WELS members became angry about this and accused me of lying to them. I had them look on the internet and now they feel deceived by their church.
A:
When we hear or read things that we wish Luther had not said or written, it is important to remember that Lutherans do not put their faith in Martin Luther but in the written Word of God. Truth is what Scripture teaches and not necessarily what Luther says. I do not know any Lutherans who endorse or teach what Luther called for in "On the Jews and Their Lies." Needless to say, this writing is not part of Lutheran doctrine. Those who appreciate his catechisms, hymns, sermons, and other writings do not endorse or condone his tirade of 1543.
Early in his career (1523) Luther wrote "That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew." In that treatise he chastised European Christians for their treatment of the Jews.
Near the end of his life, in 1543, he wrote "On the Jews and Their Lies." Luther's argument was not with Jews as a "race" or ethnic group. That is, he was not an Antisemite. His anger was directed at Judaism, and he wrote because of his disappointment that the Jews did not accept Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah. What Luther had to say about the Jews is mild compared to the writings of many of his contemporaries, including the great humanist Erasmus of Rotterdam and the Roman Catholic Saint Thomas More.
To speak of Luther's 1543 treatise as a sort of blueprint for the Nazi's twentieth century "final solution" is anachronistic and unhistorical. Luther never proposed putting any Jew to death, let alone annihilating the Jews as a people. In the preface to "On the Jews and Their Lies" he wrote: "We must indeed with prayer and the fear of God before our eyes exercise a keen compassion towards them and seek to save some of them from the flames. Avenge ourselves we dare not."
The alleged connection between Luther's writing and Hitler's "final solution" was suggested to William Shirer by the author Thomas Mann. It was popularized in Shirer's "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich." A book dealing with Shirer's notion is "The Fabricated Luther: The Rise and Fall of the Shirer Myth," by Uwe Siemon-Netto (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1995).
There are a considerable number of Q&A entries on the subject of Luther and the Jews at the WELS web site. WELS publications that deal with the subject include "Martin Luther and the Jewish People," by Nylak Tjernagel (Milwaukee: Northwestern Publishing House 1985) — "Luther and the Jews," by Siegbert Becker (The Northwestern Lutheran 70, p 347f, 1983) — "Tom Hardt on Luther and the Jews," by E.C. Fredrich (Wisconsin Lutheran Quarterly 80, Fall 1983, p 303) — "Luther, Lutherans, and Jews," by Richard D. Balge (Wisconsin Lutheran Quarterly 94, Spring 1997, p 135ff) — "Luther and Anti-Semitism," by John F. Brug (Forward in Christ 87, No 1, March 2000) — "Pizza, Patriotism, and Luther," by John F. Brug (Forward in Christ 89, No. 1, January 2002) – "Anti-Semitism and the Death of Christ," by Gary P. Baumler (Forward in Christ 91, No 4, April 2004).
From what I understand Luther in his early life was philo-semitic-a lover of the Jews and because of this he hoped there would be a mass conversion in which they would embrace Jesus as their messiah. When they didn't, well we all know the results. His rants were so horrible it is totally appropriate for Lutherans to repudiate them, even though his writings were never made part of Church doctrine.
It ot possible at all…
Well….Martin Luther did it and History Proves it..
we christians are really Humble to accept things..bt wat ab8 otherss,,,
thy cant and they never,,,be..y dont we have Prayer Chain to Pray for our Muslim Brothers and sisters…
m i rite r its bad idea…
heheh
bt we have too…
we have to publish all this material in many other languages…Like arabic…urdu and many many more languages
[...] I Love Travel put an intriguing blog post on The Illusion of Reforming IslamHere’s a quick excerptLet us consider the etymology and meaning of re-form. … the notion of “individual freedom,” “political freedom,” and “economic… [...]
Although I've much respect to the catholic church of its role in canonizing the bible and martyrdom of catholic christians defending their faith as well us pope Urban standing tall to prevent the muslims conquring europe but what I'm yet to understand is why the roman catholic church is still stuck in those medieval dogmatic practices, that are even worse unbiblical? And I dont know if catholic christians recognize this – they invest so much time practicing rituals instead of reading the bible and ultimately they become spiritually dead christians. And I've come to realize most of the so called christian converts to islam are of catholic background who
- didn't understand the power of salvation by faith and not works
- were fooled easily by muslim apologists that muhammad is
prophecied in the bible or that Jesus is also present in the quran too
or
- were not able to understand the trinity doctrine.
#32 The reason for most converts to Islam being Catholic is because there are more Catholics. In the Black community they are Protestants, because most Blacks are protestants. the main reason for this is a lack of concrete teachings and a lack of moral values. One cannot tell his congregation not to fornicate and they do. I have debated many Protestants and they are never able to defend the Bible. Muslims call Jesus a white man on a stick, then the Black members of christendom are unable to defend Jesus or their belief in Jesus. the Muslims tell them that Islam is a Black Man's Religion, whenIslam condemns Black people every opportunity it gets, The Black Christendom member is not able to defend their beliefs, because they have not been taught.
The Trinity is a doctrine from Egypt to Rome, and therefore not a Christian doctrine. This is why Muslims are able to defeat so-called Christians. Hellfire is a pagan doctrine and Muslims and Christendom both can be defeated on this one!
Raisin head wrote:
#32 The reason for most converts to Islam being Catholic is because there are more Catholics. In the Black community they are Protestants, because most Blacks are protestants. the main reason for this is a lack of concrete teachings and a lack of moral values. One cannot tell his congregation not to fornicate and they do. I have debated many Protestants and they are never able to defend the Bible. Muslims call Jesus a white man on a stick, then the Black members of christendom are unable to defend Jesus or their belief in Jesus. the Muslims tell them that Islam is a Black Man’s Religion, whenIslam condemns Black people every opportunity it gets, The Black Christendom member is not able to defend their beliefs, because they have not been taught.
The Trinity is a doctrine from Egypt to Rome, and therefore not a Christian doctrine. This is why Muslims are able to defeat so-called Christians. Hellfire is a pagan doctrine and Muslims and Christendom both can be defeated on this one!
Raisin Head this is the the early Church fathers and the Bible state about the trinity and hell.
Were the Early Church Fathers Trinitarians?
by Michael J. Partyka
Jehovah’s Witnesses, who are organized under the leadership of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, subscribe to Arianism, a belief that Jesus Christ is not fully God (as the doctrine of the Trinity maintains) but is rather a created being, made of a different substance from that of the eternal, uncreated substance of God the Father.
While hopping around the Watchtower’s official web site, I stumbled across a series of pages explaining the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ rejection of the Trinity. Partway through, I recall blinking several times furiously, because I literally couldn’t believe what I was seeing: The Watchtower was actually quoting certain ante-Nicene Church Fathers, from Justin Martyr to Origen, in an attempt to disprove that early Christians ever subscribed to the doctrine of the Trinity. They wrote:
The ante-Nicene Fathers were acknowledged to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christ's birth. What they taught is of interest.
Justin Martyr, who died about 165 C.E., called the pre-human Jesus a created angel who is “other than the God who made all things.” He said that Jesus was inferior to God and “never did anything except what the Creator…willed him to do and say.”
Irenaeus, who died about 200 C.E., said that the pre-human Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior to him. He showed that Jesus is not equal to the “One true and only God,” who is “supreme over all, and besides whom there is no other.”
Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 C.E., called Jesus in his pre-human existence “a creature” but called God “the uncreated and imperishable and only true God.” He said that the Son “is next to the only omnipotent Father” but not equal to him.
Tertullian, who died about 230 C.E., taught the supremacy of God. He observed: “The Father is different from the Son (another), as he is greater; as he who begets is different from him who is begotten; he who sends, different from him who is sent.” He also said: “There was a time when the Son was not….Before all things, God was alone.” (The word “tri'as” appears in its Latin form of “trinitas” in Tertullian. While these words do translate to “Trinity,” this is no proof in itself that Tertullian taught the doctrine of the Trinity.)
Hippolytus, who died about 235 C.E., said that God is “the one God, the first and the only One, the Maker and Lord of all,” who “had nothing co-eval [of equal age] with him….But he was One, alone by himself; who, willing it, called into being what had no being before,” such as the created pre-human Jesus.
Origen, who died about 250 C.E., said that “the Father and Son are two substances…two things as to their essence,” and that “compared with the Father, [the Son] is a very small light.”
The testimony of history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown for several centuries after biblical times.
Oh, really?
Was the Trinity “unknown” to Justin Martyr? Justin writes that “God begat before all creatures a Beginning, who was a certain rational power proceeding from Himself… which was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with Him.” [1] This squares precisely with the Nicene Creed, which declares God the Son to be “begotten, not made.” Justin explains further that “this power is indivisible and inseparable from the Father,” [2] and that the Son was “begotten from the Father, by His power and will, but not by abscission, as if the essence of the Father were divided,” [3] which means that the Son is begotten from the very same essence which the Father himself possesses – not dividing the Godhead into parts, but rather allowing each divine person a full sharing in the Godhead – which is exactly what the doctrine of the Trinity maintains.
Was the Trinity “unknown” to Irenaeus? Irenaeus’ teaching that “the Father is Lord and the Son is Lord, and the Father is God and the Son is God, since he who is born of God is God, and in this way, according to His being and power and essence, one God is demonstrated: but according to the economy of our salvation, there is both Father and Son,” [4] couldn’t be more Trinitarian. Moreover, Irenaeus distinguishes the Son and the Holy Spirit from created beings when he says, “The Word, namely the Son, was always with the Father; and that Wisdom also, which is the Spirit, was present with Him, anterior to all creation.” [5] So, according to Irenaeus, the Son and the Spirit are co-eternal with the Father, just like the doctrine of the Trinity says.
Was the Trinity “unknown” to Clement of Alexandria? Clement calls Jesus “the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe” [6] as well as “God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand, and with the form of God is God.” [7] And Clement is decidedly adamant that “the Son of God, being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreated.” [8] Jesus, according to Clement, wasn’t created, but “existed always, without beginning.” Rather than holding Jesus to be an inferior, created being, Clement clearly teaches that Jesus is “co-eternal” and “co-existent with the Father.” Isn’t this exactly what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches?
Was the Trinity “unknown” to Tertullian? On the contrary, Tertullian loudly proclaims, “Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other… [9] and that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that They are distinct from Each Other.” He continues, “All are of One, by unity of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God.” [10] He finishes, “All the Scriptures attest the clear existence of, and distinction in, the Persons of the Trinity, and indeed furnish us with our Rule of faith,” [11] and, “I must everywhere hold one only substance in three coherent and inseparable Persons.” [12] To reproduce here all that Tertullian says in support of the Trinity would probably take up another page or two. Suffice it to say that in his declaration, “The Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God,” we have a nice, simply-rendered summary of the Trinity doctrine.
Was the Trinity “unknown” to Hippolytus? Hippolytus says, “The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God. Now the world was made from nothing; wherefore it is not God.” [13] So Hippolytus, too, sets the Logos of God, a.k.a. Jesus, apart from all creation and all created beings. He further declares of Jesus that “by nature He is God,” [14] and that Jesus, “who was co-existent with His Father before all time, and before the foundation of the world, always had the glory proper to Godhead.” [15] According to Hippolytus, Jesus “was in essential being with His Father” [16] and “is co-eternal with His Father,” just as the doctrine of the Trinity says. And, with regard to the Trinity as a whole, Hippolytus says, “We cannot otherwise think of one God, but by believing in truth in Father and Son and Holy Spirit,” [17]and, “Whosoever omits any one of these, fails in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. The whole Scriptures, then, proclaim this truth.” [18] Clearly, Hippolytus is a Trinitarian.
Was the Trinity “unknown” to Origen? Origen teaches, “God is the Father of His only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of Him, and derives from Him what He is, but without any beginning, not only such as may be measured by any divisions of time, but even that which the mind alone can contemplate within itself, or behold, so to speak, with the naked powers of the understanding. And therefore we must believe that Wisdom was generated before any beginning that can be either comprehended or expressed.” [19] Likewise, Origen says, “We have been able to find no statement in Holy Scripture in which the Holy Spirit could be said to be made or created.” [20] He therefore concludes that “all things which exist were made by God, and that there was nothing which was not made, save the nature of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit,” [21] and that “the Father generates an uncreated Son, and brings forth a Holy Spirit, not as if He had no previous existence, but because the Father is the origin and source of the Son or Holy Spirit, and no anteriority or posteriority can be understood as existing in them.” [22] Accordingly, “the Holy Spirit is reckoned in the Unity of the Trinity along with the unchangeable Father and His Son.” [23] In all of Origen’s teachings we have, once again, the doctrine of the Trinity proclaimed loud and clear.
Given the overwhelming evidence, we must conclude that the doctrine of the Trinity was not “unknown” for several centuries after biblical times, as the Watchtower would have us believe. We must additionally conclude that, contrary to the Watchtower’s implications, the ante-Nicene Church Fathers cited by them – Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus, and Origen – were all Trinitarians, as all of them believed that Jesus is of the same substance as God, thereby making him co-equal and co-eternal with the Father.
Matthew 28:19
Go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit
John 10:30
The father and I are one
John 14:9
Whoever has seen me has seen the father.
In John 1:42 Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter and for a Jew changing names was something only God could do.
Hell
Matthew 25:41
He will say to those on his left, depart from me you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
2 Peter 2:4
God did not sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgement.
[...] The Illusion of Reforming Islam | Faithfreedom.org [...]
[...] The Illusion of Reforming Islam | Faithfreedom.org [...]
[...] The Illusion of Reforming Islam | Faithfreedom.org [...]
[...] four-minute video weaves in archival stadium footage … market research, surveys and trends The Illusion of Reforming Islam | Faithfreedom.org Since, thanks to Islamic terrorism the interest to know Islam has picked and Islam has come [...]
This is very true, some 'Muslims' are barbarians reformation or not. Likewise, so are some Christians.
I reverted to Islam 5 years ago, I don't believe that God died on a cross then came back to life. My wiife on the other hand is a Christian and does, a minor technicality in my opinion. I pray 5 times a day and consider myself a good Muslim.
I attend the Catholic Church regularly with my wife. There are no Muslims that I associate with who frown upon this; many encourage me to attend church with my wife and make comments such as, Christians love the Prophet Isa (s.a.w) more than we love the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w)
as for the comment; Islam promotes slavery, Christianity promotes freedom.
Unfortunately Christians these days don't believe Jesus (Prophet Isa) is the way to freedom. Same for Muslims. They have confused Christ (Allah) with the crude idol of Capitalism. I would rather be a slave to Allah or Christ than a slave to the Godless existence that the monstrosity of unchecked capitalism promotes. In the modern world, the spirit at the heart of Christianity and Islam, in many cases, is watered down so much that we have failed to identify the real al-shaitan and anti-christ; the greed, gluttony and excesses of materialism and capitalism. Such a shame.
Instead of arguing over who has the correct doctrine for salvation, why don't 'the people of the book' work to end the excesses of the rich and the exploitation of the poor and helpless. This is what Christ and the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) would of wanted, not petty bickering and idle slander that keeps us from uniting against the real foe.
How to convert a democracy to ISLAMIC Country
Where Imams decide parties and devotees vote http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20090419/812/tnl-wher…
One Muslim candidate turns Muslims against Congress http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20090419/818/tnl-one-…
Its evolution, when muslims will evolve spiritually, they will leave islam. When non muslims will evolve in I.Q, they will leave political correctness and call islam for what it is. If humans don't evolve fast enough, muslims may well destroy the human species, or drag them far behind along with themselves.
Non muslims then will have to take some part of the blame for non stopping the spiritually unevolved species.
—
Even when I type muslims and islam, the inbuilt dictionary wants me to begin them with a capital letter, even our dictionaries are unevolved.
Let there be no illusion/delusion.Islam be bansihed for ever.Who ever wants to restrict his practice of islamic evil to only these following aspects let them
1.Fasting during ramadan month.
2.Braying 5 times a day.
3.Screaming at the top of the voice with our disturbing others the sick mantra
" la Illahi illallah, mohammadan rasool allah"
4.Wants to visit the sick land of mohammad paying his own money.
5.Wants to marry off hhis daughter aged 6 to 60 year old man for money
6.Wants to lensd money to others with out interest
7.Wants fridays to be special day of congregartion
8.Wants to cover his wife and women in blackest of the clothes possible.
9.Wants to shave off moustache and keep the henna dyed beard.
10.Wants women to be not educated at all.
Let these stupid moslems practice their own islam.But the moment it affects the life of kafirs, slaughter them where evr you find them!
The only way to reform pisslam is to nuke Mekkah and Medinah. That will prove that Muhammad's Allah is full of shit.
Mmmmmm, Ali, may I respectfully request/suggest that you refrain from entering waters you do not know, nor understand. The majority of Christians in the world do not agree with your assessment of the so-called "reformation / protest". And the One Holy and Catholic Apostolic Church is the majority of the Christians in the world. Looks like that reform/protest sort of failed.
Must admit, I haven't read what you had to say about Islamic reform; so I can't comment as my attention was drawn to your post-enlightenment atheist view of the "protest / reform".
But, for what it's worth. Islam cannot be reformed because then it wouldn't be Islam.
i think mohamed laughing in hell, cos what his intention was just for fun while his alive, having lot of money by robing, bullying stupid peasant, and sex whoever he wants, bring mohamed alive, he'll be scratching and shaking his head saying: "you we're an idiot…can't you use your brain or something, if i knew there will be such education or school in next few centuries…, i wouldn't lie that stupid"
"The Illusion of Reforming Islam" Ha Ha Ha Ha
But the fact is Reforming Evil Islam is not an Illusion( But a wet dream) according to American, British Christian politicians. They have been at it ( Reforming Islam) for last few decades: only when it comes to punishing the Soviets in Afghanistan or the Indians in Kashmir or the non Christians any where in the world. Now they are facing their own music.
Just enjoy the show of Jihad and Crusade at each others throat.
I have no illusion about getting rid of this XXXX islam from this earth.There are over a billion deluded minds following that pedophile prophet and his pimp allah.Their thinking goes perhaps like this.
1.You the kafirs hurl and abuse saying your prophet XXXXXXXX XXX XXXXXXXX a child aged 6 .
The deluded mind of a moslem will say this.
No the child bride ayesha was handed over to the prophet for a reason to screw.Allah even ensured that the child bride did not suffer any injury and even reduced the dik size of mohammad.There must have been some reason for rasool to get it on the child.It's only for rasool and not for all moslems!
2.You say women are oppressed and covered in black.
The deluded moslem mind will say no we are protecting our women from the prying eyes of kafirs and in our moslem countries rape is non existent!
3.You say women are oppressed and treated as chatel.Moslems will say no we have given moslem women important place inside the house!!
The trouble is the deluded fellows not only say that but believe in that crap too.See no hope
The USA now has a kafir President who bows down very far, suggesting that he wants to perform an act of fellatio on the Saudi King!
Perhaps O-bow-ma wants Islam to be reformed to allow acts of homosexuality, so that he can then take the Saudi King to bed and thigh with him. Anything to ensure the Saudi oil keeps flowing into the USA after all…
Unfortunately, this has turned out to be a page about luther's antisemitism. Nevertheless, I would like to congratulate Ali Sina for his recent post, which is really good.
Regards,
Kikl
Kikl wrote:
Unfortunately, this has turned out to be a page about luther’s antisemitism. Nevertheless, I would like to congratulate Ali Sina for his recent post, which is really good.
I think the issue is that history has painted Luther as this great reformer saint and that is really far from the truth. Luther's movement to reform the Church was a great effort to bring the Church to what it is meant to be. But other then that Luther was no saint, he had a hot-temper and a potty-mouth. Then again no one is perfect.
Ok this will be my last post to Raisin Head on this subject:
More on hell:
The Early Church Fathers on Hell – Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Stay Catholic ^
Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 2:19:51 PM by NYer
The Early Church Fathers taught that any one who dies in a state of mortal sin will suffer for all eternity in hell.
Ignatius of Antioch
Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2 [A.D. 110]).
Second Clement
If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
Justin Martyr
No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons (ibid. 52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Athenagoras
We [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God…. [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortally by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . , For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]).
Irenaeus
The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire," they will be damned forever (Against Heresies 4:28:2 [A.D. 189]).
Hippolytus
Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: "Just is your judgment!" And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
Minucius Felix
I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (Octavius 34:12-5:3 [A.D. 226]).
Cyprian of Carthage
An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike; For if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).
Matthew 13:42
They will throw them into the fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
verse 50
And throw them into the fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation 19:20
The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Oh Dear! I know you have a point dear Sina. But do you really think you are doing it the 'ideal' way to convince whoever you are trying to convince? By the way, who is it that you are trying to convince here? Is it the Muslims? Or the non-Muslims? Or in fact yourself?
Ali Sina's point is clear, and the article is very well appreciated. I do hope that the readers can get back to the point of it. It's just that women tend to follow tangents, or threads, in their conversations. I'm guessing of course, that many of the commenters for this particular article are women, more than for most of the articles on this site.
Mr Molvi again
why dont u come and debeta wid Ali sina r send ur scolars on ths site to debeat wid ali sina…its really easy tht u think…ali sina is Clearing the minds of PPl…
ppl who think Talbans are not muslim…thy are wrong there isnt a Moderate islam at all…i too belive…
coz If we talk ab8 veil…
u r not allowed to go infront of ur brothers wife and ur wife is not allowd to go infront of ur brother,,,if u u can change its up to u..bt quran states the links of mahram
Brother
father
son and Husband no one else..
bt look arounfd wats going on
look at ur girls..
first clean ur home thn come to us..
we are not fake…our ids are fake…
we learnt islam alot..and we realy dont wanna learn more..we jst come ther coz we love you ppll….
and we all want you ppl to know the reality..
tell me widout marraige if i'm doing a sex..
wat you call it..
answer my simple question
Davide did tht and God said to david u r not gona build my temple…
so who is on the rite way….
so simple question need simple answer..not a lenghty one..
i hope u can answer..ur dp name shows u r some kind of Preist..
so tell me if i do sex widout marriage wat u call it…
Love
care
help
wat u call it
R u can sand Bravly and call it sin…
if u know wat is rite and wat is wrong
# 38
Hello Molvi
Are you saying that I have no chance of winning Miss Congeniality context? I suppose you're right! But I hit the nail on the head and don’t mince my words. It’s over eight years that these people are writing books about what is wrong with Islam, writing articles, giving conferences, making videos, making television shows, and saying everything the westerners want to hear and presenting themselves as Moderate Muslims.
What's it that they want? They want to protect Islam. They want to pull wool over the eyes of the westerner and make them believe Islam is not all bad.
They are educated people. They are not stupid. They know Islam, They know they are lying. They know the Islam that they present exists only in their imagination and that it has never existed before and can never eixit. Who can stop the mullahs from reading the Quran and hadith to people and tell them this is the real Islam? So what is it that they are selling?
I am tired of these people and their deceptions and lies. I don’t want to be liked. I don’t want to be popular. I want to tell the truth and I want to demolish Islam.
100 years from now, we will be all dead. Who will care whether I was popular among my contemporaries or not. The only thing that will matter 100 years from now is who was right.
And you know what? They can’t refute what I said. Sometimes it is good to be harsh and draw the line in the sand. These people are smart. They will realize that they are playing a losing game and they better join us sooner and save face.
Now that their hands is exposed, (and I will write more on this subject) the world can see that there is nothing in their hands. They have no cards to play. I am going to pound on them until they stop this charade.
There is a time to be gentle and a time to be harsh. With people who do not understand you should be gentle. These people understand.
With this article out, it will be harder for them to continue. They have to make their minds, one way or another.
Their audience are the westerners, not the Muslims. Once they see the truth, they are not going to listen to these reformer wannabes anymore and they will have to stop.
Dear Sina: I understand what you are trying to tell me here. But try to understand my point too: If most Muslims are willing to accept a softer version of Islam and then go about their lives without worrying about it too much, then I think we can take heart in knowing that Islam is not going to be a major threat to the safety of the 'Westerners' and hence need not be eliminated. Now please do your math here before you say anything further.
Most muslims in Egypt, Turkey, Malaysia, UAE, Kuwait, India, Indonesia, and a large number of Muslims in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Iran and Iraq actually follow a softer version of Islam. When we talk about suicide bombers and radicals and their supporters, we are only talking about less than 1 percent of the Muslim population. What about the 99 percent who want to live a different life where religion is viewed as very flexible and as something to be kept as a source of guidance for higher values.
I know what you say here. You say those people who follow a softer version of Islam do not actually know Islam and therefore they don't follow it properly. And also, there can be no softer version of Islam because there is only one, which by no means is soft. Therefore, to be a Muslim one has to follow Islam 'the one right way'. The way you describe!
That maybe so in your eyes through your ideals. But how are you going to convince those who believe and then actually follow a softer version of Islam? They are not radicals, they don't support suicide bombers, they are not against the Westerners. Are you going to tell them to first become a radical by following the 'correct' version of Islam and then actually discard the religion after having seen the 'truth'? How absurd. Can something like this really happen? All I say is, be a realist and use your intelligence in a right way. Do criticise Islam but have realistic goals. I read a few of your articles where you came up the idea of ousting Obama because of him 'apparently' suffering from NPD? Are you for real? Do you think this can happen? Come on!
WOW softer version and harder version?? Is islam like dik, soft mostly and hard when stimulated!!!
Most moslems at heart are dik heads who would want sharia on one and all.the jihadi scum bags carry out the threatening scum parts of islam.The softer diks will populate the infidel lands to out number them and silently breed like pigs to stink out the area. Then comes the cess pit islamic land. Want examples??
Egypt was ones a land of pagan egyptians and then christians followed by cess pit of islamic land.
The persian empire is now atotal cess pit of moslems was ones a prosperous land of the cyrus the great.
The porkis land is the absolute cess pit of moslems who are stinking out the whole world.
Then the banglades scum pit was again a land of non moslems till the moderate moslem scum bags filled the place and stunk out the rest of humanity.
This has always been the story of islam.It destroys the localulture and the pigs multiply to occupy the place
Proudkafir, everyone is hard when 'stimulated'. Look at Ali Sina when he is 'stimulated' and look at yourself. Aren't you too 'stimulated' in your last post?
Hmm intellectual masturbation?? Perhaps.
I am very slightly inclined to agree with you when you say quite a lot of moslems are infact not radicals.But remember a moslem is only a stone throw away from becoming a radical.
Why is the majority softer diks keeping floppy when the harder diks are creating a mess in the society? Pakisthan follows a softer version of islam????? Killing going on daily ( of sunnis by shias and the of shias by sunnis) will, to your rasool worshipping mind is a softer version of pisslam!
Why moslems are following the rapist pedophile in molesting children? Softer dik would not help here!
Why softer dik moslems are protesting on streets against rapist's cartoon, but not a tweek against the suicide attacks,, bombings, beheadings, child molesting? Taliban imposed tax on sikhs, father in law screwing the daughter in law and the molvis( any relation?) forced the daughter in law to divorce the husband and marry the rapist father inlaw! This is the story of a softer islam.The harder verison is yet to come.This is only a trailor(.sample of things to come). I dont think I ever heard of the scum bag moslems protesting about this despicable fatwa! Shabana the tawaiff was eerily silent! So was arundhati roy!
Why no moslem is protesting about the sodi barbarian islam? It's ok to protest in streets of India about a cartoon of the rapist published in Denmark and kill people on the streets of India, but its Sodi barbaria's way of islam and not our problem? We have heard enough of the nonsense.The days of chaos on the streets of London where moslem scum bags will be hacked are not too far off.This will affect one and all.Moslem scum bags will be affected as much as any one else.
42. Molvi_Sittar Says:
I truly agree wid you and Ali too…
i'm not aginst both of Thm..bt dear Molvi tell me honestly…who are in pakistan safe…u ppl are saying ab8 the soft corner..you know wat Bible and JESUS means to Christians….
what God means to Christians..
u simple state Bible is Change…
isnt this Blasmphy….
why ther is 295C and B in Pakistan…
y Christians and other relgions are not free in Pakistan,,,
shame on u Molvi…I m really sorry…u call me wat ever u wanna calll..
bt this is the soft corner..
this is wat u call freedom of Right…
Burnt whole Village in Pakistan Called shanti Nagar by radical Muslims…no case…
raping Christian girls..no cases..
coz Christian girls are not able to pay…
and next thing thy dont have 4 male witness..
Which christian is Blasting r doing a sucide boombing and saying in the Name of JESUS and thn blast..no..
so every Paki muslim is saying wat ever is happening in SWAT is doing by Kafirs…
Man come to the point..
wat Quran Says Beat ur wife.
Lets talk ab8 Mahram
if u r not following ur own religion thn dont blame us,,its ur fault..
if u really follow it..u should b like other sucide bombers……..
its really simple Molvi…
Follow it r leave it..
wat ur religion says…
dont make Frndship wid Christians r Jewish..
thn who u r to make a soft corner..
R u ALLAH
ALLAH is ur God and
whn Allah dont allow you to have frndship wid thm y u r doing tht..
Whn Allah say Kill non-muslims..
thn who you are to say thy are bad…
honestly speaking they are Preaching real islam
although it hurts..
bt its true..they are Preaching the reality..
you ppl are not even joined together,,,,
and RESPECTED MOLVI sir dont belive me..read urseld…and do tell us…where is the soft corner..its honestly if u try to develop the soft corner thn u r INFADAL….r bla bla..
so if u dnt wanna follow the things which are in Islam Quran and Hadith thn leave it..y u r giving pain to urself…
take ur step and understand it…
Wher is love..
Is Allah Preaching LOVe.
no way and no where…
thn y u r not following ALLAH..
belive me r not..
bt u r disturbed now…same as i…
where to go wat to do..
yesterday one of my frnd from Pakistan told me tht…
in BONER near to SWAT
Talibans asked thn to Pay jazia (TAX)
y u r calling it wrong..open Hadith and Quran and u come to know every non muslim have to pay…
I'm not against Muslims…
i want all of thm to understand and i love all of them
Bt y u dnt wanna understand…who is doing all evils,,,
i dont call muslims as terrorist
by y every major terrorist is a Muslim…
i belive u r also from Pakistan…
its ot ur fault…if u ever try to deny Islam u should b killed…
if ur Brother in law beat ur sister its his write coz it is written in Quran..
wat ab8 value of Women…don go to culture…
look wat religon says…
if dog,donky and women walk infront while u r Praying thn ur pray finsih,,,
look the value of women…
u've MOM..lovly mom who gave birth to u…ur loving sister….who always ther to Press ur cloths
wash ur cloths,,,
make food and try different foods for you to eat..give water to u whn u come from out r work…
in a form of female…
may u r married thn U have loving wife..who left her family and come to u…living wid you…taking care of you….may b u have sweet littel dolll and sweet daughter…
is thy all are dog,and monkey..
dont shout at me…i;m so sorry coz i respect and value ur mom more than u
ur sister more thn u.
ur wife as elder sister
ur daughter as my loving doll
i dont have any issue wid thm
thn thy belong to u
y u have issue wid thm
u know now science proves tht girls who are wearing Black Viel tht are having lack of Vitamin D.
so whose fault Islams not urs…
go and read tht articals of FFI http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/03/20/islam-in-d…
look and read and watch wat tht lady is talking ab8 and wat they are saying are you gonna belive tht
now read this one http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/03/20/islam-in-d…
and now read tht one the real value
how u cant stop all this
where is the soft corner..
if u put the soft corner..thn u will called as KAFIR
so i'm sure u dont wanna b a kafir
dear the belwo video after watching tht vedio i have tears in my eyes..i know if u watch u too have..
i'm not saying Christians are very good..they are also rapping
but thy are not beating there wives if they are doing thy are agaisnt Christianity…
bt if muslim is beating he is a true muslim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bru-a_fbRns
Cooldown, PK.
Dont redicule the prophet as pedophile, murderer, etc. because:
In an article prior to this (there are 352 comments as of now), Londonspirit has written that what was written in Quran about embriology – the leech like thing – has been proved correct by a scientist. So I am inclined to believe that after all, there may be some logic or scientific truth in the following that are awaiting discovery by scientists, if not today may be tomorrow:
1. Thighing of babies by Adult muslims
2. Screwing pre-pubescent girls
3. Using odd stones for wiping arse after defecating
5. Wife beating
6. Screwing daughter-in-law
7. Killing and looting caravans
etc.etc.
Perhaps there may be divinity and spirituality in these acts that infedals can't detect. Lo! Allah knows the best.
proudkafir: I believe you are not in a right state of mind. Maybe you are Ali Sina hiding as usual behind some nick and a personality of his creation. Or maybe you are someone else, but just as disturb as he is. Like i said before, there is no point in discussing anything intelligent with you mentally retard and stupidly idealistic people. How do you know Moslems are not protesting in Pakistan? Have you been there? How do you know what the reaction of people is in cities like Karachi, Lahore, Faisalabad, Rawalpindi, ? Just because you don't read that in papers? How pathetically stupid you are for thinking that. Before you say anything about 'moslems' just look are you mentor Ali Sina and then at yourself (that is if you are not him). Would you really call yourself a tolerant person? Get a life. Get out of this misery of yours. See the world the way it is.
And Kaalan, come up with something else apart from 'raping', 'molesting', 'looting', 'wife beating'. It really feels like we are talking to 100 Ali Sinas here.
Poma: Now we are talking. You believe I am from Pakistan? I could be. Does it make any difference? But it does tell me one thing very clearly: that almost everyone here tries his best to prove an opposing person's 'Muslim background' and then his/her ties with Pakistan, Iran or similar countries. Like it is going to make a damn difference.
Now look at what you wrote in your last post
"so every Paki muslim is saying wat ever is happening in SWAT is doing by Kafirs…"
Now if you say something like this about a nation of 160 million people then you are for sure not in your senses. How on earth can you say such a thing about 160 million people? Do you call this intelligent discussion? You have got not point to discuss here. You know nothing about the situation there and in other cities of Pakistan. Pakistani people are getting killed in suicide blasts by the Talibans. Do you think Pakistanis are supporting their cause? How anyone in his right senses can support killing of their own people? Maybe the people there are just too helpless because of a weak government, which in a way is also helpless before those Talibans. Look at what the government just did a few weeks ago. It struck a deal with the Talibans to impose a shirah-style government in Swat simply because it was unable to do anything else. Whose fault it is? A few people in the government or a nation of 160 million people? Think before you speak.
Right
If the typical natural moslem behaviour is alluded to ( raping,looting, child molesting, wife beating ) it's an expression of hatred against moslems.. What is so mentally retarded about asking you as to why softer dik moslems are not protesting about the violence perpetrated by your coreligioniits on nonmoslems? Can you please give an answer?
Why do you think we are stupidly idealistic? In an ideal world inhabited by the scum bag moslems only the non moslems are supposed to just vanish?
Infact your rapist peodphile says asks the non moslems to walk on the other side of foot path as they are najjis. I think your prophet and quite a few moslems who wipe their back side with odd number of stones after crapping are najjis. Let us see how using the odd number of stones sunnah is a clean habit! Don't side step the question.Please answer as to how using the even or odd stones to wipe your back side is a clean habit.I am quite aware of many msoelsm who carry the brick pieces in to the toilet. What a prophet and what a sunnah.
You are not just arguing with 100 ali sinas.You will be arguing with millions soon.
Is there god ?then who he is?These are questions that are harassing humanity ever since civilizations.But these god fight lead to destruction and burning of other faith temples(all ancient temples of hindus right from Somnath temple by Mad Ghazini) and universitites (like The great Nalanda university of india and university of Alexandria)only started only after islam .Babar Demoilished Ram temple in Ayodya and built masjid on the walls of it.He lived only 5 years afer invading india but destroyed temples which were built for centuries.No ancient temple in north india was left .However some the temles in south india and temples in mayanmar and Angkor watt survived beacuse the islamic invaders could not go forward to east beacuse of thick forests and strong defence in south.but the great city of Hampi was destructed and was burnt for 6 monthe.All theses evil and mad desrtuction techniques are all ispired from Mad Mo who looted the carvans ,beheaded armless rivals,destroyed drinkink water wells,burnt the trees.Muslims still hide their conscience by saying Allah ordered him to do so.Mo just lied to satisfy his greed for wealth and respect.Muslims are brain washed and confused of all morals and logic by suppressing them by saying allah knows better.
o was not a prophet at all.He suffered from Schizophrenia and dilusions and hallcinations.
Ok proudkafir, I am gonna answer your questions one at a time:
You asked: "What is so mentally retarded about asking you as to why softer dik moslems are not protesting about the violence perpetrated by your coreligioniits on nonmoslems?"
So just because they are not protesting on the streets and it doesn't get to the papers means they are actually supporting all this? This is why I called you a mental retard — for thinking like that. You generalise too much. You generalise whatever it is you want to believe. Use logic. Got it?
"Why do you think we are stupidly idealistic? In an ideal world inhabited by the scum bag moslems only the non moslems are supposed to just vanish?"
You didn't actually get my point. You guys are 'stupidly idealistic' because you have your guru's ideals of 'eliminating Islam' for whatever reasons. The stupidity is that you all, like your guru, firmly believe that this can actually happen. Hence 'stupidity idealistic' for having unachievable ideals. Now you might say this can happen if we keep on spewing out our venom by writing stupid and nonsense articles. But any realist would tell you that it simply cannot happen. Why? Just get down own on earth and look at it exactly as it is. You will know exactly why. And tell me something. Are you really gonna listen to a guy and then declare him an intelligent person who actually believes the President of the USA should be ousted because he suffers from NPD? Jeeez. I laughed for the whole day when I read his intelligent articles on Obama's claimed narcissism. The guy doesn't even have a clue about this particular condition. And he is telling the world to join his stupid cause. He's got Sam Vaknin wrote a line or two in ancient English on his book. What does that mean? That Sam Vaknin is a narcissist himself. At best, Mr Sina's endless praises to Mr Vaknin are what Mr Vaknin calls 'Narcissistic Supply'. Does Sina know that?
"Please answer as to how using the even or odd stones to wipe your back side is a clean habit.I am quite aware of many msoelsm who carry the brick pieces in to the toilet. What a prophet and what a sunnah."
I can't answer that. I am not favouring Islam here. Something you idiots would never understand. If Islam says something like this and Muslims follow it then let it be so. Not my concern. There are hundereds of rituals in other religions and cults in this world. We can prove them all wrong by applying logic. Do you think it is really that difficult? DO you think Ali Sina has achieved something unachievable by pointing out these things in Islam. Bullcrap. People do everything in faith. Philosphy or logic fails when you have faith. OK? Mr Dumbo.
"You are not just arguing with 100 ali sinas.You will be arguing with millions soon."
Again you are being unrealistically idealistic. We don't know anything about Ali SIna. We don't even know if you are Ali Sina using a different nick. We don't even know if he a runaway from a mental asylum. DO we? All he says is believe him blindly. This is not going to happen. If continues on this path he is probably gonna die a very miserable death after having lived a painful life. He can choose!
Dear MOlvi..
so sorry for my post coz i was not mention clearly my post..
even Paki ppl are saying tht it happens coz of Muslims…
…tell me wat happened in Karachi yesterady..
whos fault is this…yes Government..i agree wid you..bt look Brother who are doing,…Government is Muslim and you are too..y dont you ppl come on Roads to stop all this shit..y u are not stopping your brothers and sisters to let us live..
we are afraid to go to Churches…
missinory schools are closed in Lahr and pindi..thy have sucside threats…whos fault is this,..not urs not mine…bt look who are doing this Muslims…on whos name u know well more thn me…i know ths is really bad..no human being really like..even Muslims are killing Muslims..i know wat ever is happing in Pakistan..
whn they hit Marriot…
my frnd House windows also got scratches…..this is not only muslims country
this is Christians country as well..
and this is not islamic country at all
if u know the meaning of Pakistan thn tell me wat it means..
Allah is ONe.this is the meaning of Pakistan
so simple you call ALLAh and we Call God..so one thing is Clear GOd is ONE..so jst stop all this tht Pakistan is Islamic county…its is NOT at all..y Christians are not allowed to Preach openly..
why the Hell is 295C.
so simple na
u can say to Chirstians and do to us wat ever u wanna say…bt Christians are not allowed….y y y
can u gimme the answer..there are many Islamic Channels working…bt y not a singal Channel…
who is in fault..
definatly you…
you agree wid me r not..bt its ur fault…wat ever is happening to Christians u dnt stop ppl…bt now things comming to you and now u r shouting..
man wat ever written in Bible ab8 Christians is happening to Christians..so Christians are not Worried…
y They pay Jazia to tht So called Muslims…
first come to humanity thn talk ab8 religions…
y they leave tht country…this is theire county…
they live there…there grand Parents died in tht country..
there Christian Army man Died to defend Pakistan.y they leave and pay thm for living freely in this country…if u say u r preaching peace..thn come on roads and ask ur govenment ab8 all this…answer me..man…I Love Muslims…bt i really hate Teaching of Islam…and u have to agree wid me..
dnt make frndship wid Jews r Christan…
y we are worst Creations…
bla bla…
man do u really have mind…
who is really creating Problem…
not you not me..
only Islam…
and i'm sure if u r really a humanity lover..thn u will b agree wid me..
Love and Prayers for you
Right we are getting there inch by inch.
You can not comment on the najjis habit of moslems.Good.I am glad that you have a few neurons still left and not completely damaged by the islamic evil.Let us work on those to improve your level of understanding.
Do you approve of a 55 year old man sexing it with a girl aged 6? Yes or no? that will do.Thank you for your learning.We shall get you to se the light.
Your statement " I can’t answer that. I am not favouring Islam here. Something you idiots would never understand. If Islam says something like this and Muslims follow it then let it be so. Not my concern. There are hundereds of rituals in other religions and cults in this world. We can prove them all wrong by applying logic. Do you think it is really that difficult?" is interesting indeed.
I never argued that it's difficult to disprove other religions.I am arguing that islam is not only stupid but also evil, not necessarily in that order.
You are not agreeing with islam about the butt cleaning habits as desired by the prophet.So at least 1 point you do not agree with the rasool.the next point is already there for you to answer. Am waiting for your answer.Let us take one verse by verse!
"Again you are being unrealistically idealistic. We don’t know anything about Ali SIna. We don’t even know if you are Ali Sina using a different nick. We don’t even know if he a runaway from a mental asylum. DO we? All he says is believe him blindly. This is not going to happen. If continues on this path he is probably gonna die a very miserable death after having lived a painful life. He can choose!"
Ali Sina says believe him blindly!!!
I have read all his articles in ffi and it ask readers to judge for themselves. He is not asking anybody to believe him blindly. On the other hand it is the pedophile rasool who asks his followers to believe him blindly.
Recently I have read a lot in newspapers about Taliban takeover of Swat in Pakistan and people around the world express their fears and apprehension of it. I wonder what is there to be surprised about it. Pakistan was created for muslims 60 years ago and yet people could not realise their dream of real Islam reigning them until now. And it is only right that Taliban or Al Quaida are doing what Pakistanis have been craving for. It was amusing for me to watch on TV channels the decent looking western clothed (suit) advocates protesting in the streets of Pakistani capital the other day. Even though they were wearing western clothes, their minds and hearts are set in the 7th Century Arabian culture and no civilization on earth can bring it back to 21st century. It is none of our business too. So what is the point in non-muslims worrying about it. Let them follow thier prophet and enjoy life as their leader showed them.
Proudkafir, you asked the question Ali Sina has already asked a million times. He's been given several answer of which he did not understand even one. I am going to give you an answer one last time. You asked:
"Do you approve of a 55 year old man sexing it with a girl aged 6? Yes or no?"
No I do not. But my understanding of this matter of entirely different than the people whole lived 1400 years ago. They had DIFFERENT ethics and morals. Ethics change with socities and so do morals.( Ali Sina's article 'Ethics vs Morals' or something similar is a complete garbage. He doesn't know what he is talking about). It was OK both ethical and moral to have sex with a 6 year old pubescent girl in Muhammad's time. End of story. By the way, your guru did mention Aisha was 9 and not 6 when Muhammad consummated his marriage with her.
Islam may be evil in the eyes of people like you and a lot other. But listen to what I am saying here: you cannot have the utterly unrealistic goal of eliminating this so called evil. It is just too childish to have such a dream. It is not going to happen, and deep down you know it. If you think it is evil then try to educate people about its aspect you think ARE evil. Believe or not but people out there are wiling to listen when you show them a way out by talking in a reasonable tone and manner. Telling them to discard it because it is some kind of curse is only gonna make them cling to it more and more. Got it? Dumbo!
And thanks for your point allocation. You are giving me points here is more funny than anything else happening here or anywhere else in the world. But i still appreciate it!
Good.We are getting there.
You have agreed that sex with a girl aged 6 or 9 ( does it matter) by a 55 year old as of today is immoral and was ok at the time of prophet! I shall give you one half point and and deducting 1/2 point for saying that it was ok at that time.( as per my and many sane people's understanding, it was and is never moral)
The let us move on to the next question.
Is it ok to have sex with daughter in law? Waithing for the next answer.Please remember you have already scored one and half points and when this reaches 10 you are not a moslem any more!
Sorry molvi you scored 2 and half points.
1 point for not wiping the back side wth odd number of stones, how odd indeed.
2.For " agreeing with us that "People do everything in faith. Philosphy or logic fails when you have faith. OK? Mr Dumbo"
That's precisely what we are sayoing that moslems are stupid and silly and irrational due to their faith in the pedo rasool! reverse that dumbo!
Next question is awaiting an answer. Do you think it's ok to screw your own daughter in law????
proudkafir: now you are babbling.
Kaalan :
You wrote: "And it is only right that Taliban or Al Quaida are doing what Pakistanis have been craving for. It was amusing for me to watch on TV channels the decent looking western clothed (suit) advocates protesting in the streets of Pakistani capital the other day. Even though they were wearing western clothes, their minds and hearts are set in the 7th Century Arabian culture and no civilization on earth can bring it back to 21st century."
Surprises me deeply that how on earth everyone here can read the minds of a million people by just watching them protesting on TV! You are a winner. Just like your champion guru (that is if you are not him). So how do we know you guru's mind is also not set in the 7th century Arabia? After all, we only read articles written by him. We don't know what his state of mind his. Just like those lawyers wearing 'western' clothes but having a backward mind, he too could be writing like a (wannabe) Westerner but with a backward mind. Do we know? And don't forget he an 'ex' Iranian Muslims. As they say, old habits die hard!
And then you wrote:
"And it is only right that Taliban or Al Quaida are doing what Pakistanis have been craving for. "
Again you are talking about no less than 160 million people. Come on now. try to sound more sensible and reasonable. Not even a KG child would say such a thing.
! I meant to ask you" if you think the concept of having sex with daughter in law is right or wrong ". Sorry the question was not phrased properly and conveyed wrong meaning.See the funny thing about english( not English!) is words do not mean what they are meant to mean! I guess that you think its not ok to screw one's daughter in law.Sunnah you see not to be followed. so you get 2 points.Now you have four and half points.
Right the next question.
Do you think its okay to beat the crap out of wife/wives? Hmmm
Marie The trinity goes back to ancient Egypt. Isis, Osiris, and Horus. The cross was called the anhk, and the never world was also an Egyptian teaching. Now I dont think Egypt was a Christian nation. In fact no nation should be a Christian nation and Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world.
Martin Luther was not doing God's will when he dissed Jews and advocated worst things for Jews than Muhammad. Luther was still a Catholic, but was mad at them for their abuses of the people. He still kept most of the teachings of Catholicism, a religion of Constantine in 325CE.
Now as far as the Trinity is concerned, every world power had a trinity. Jesus said his FATHER is greater than he is John 14:28 and John 3:16 said God sent Jesus to do his works. Jesus said pray to his god and our god, pray to my father and your father. If Jesus was god why didnt he say pray to him. A god is a god regardless.
The anti-Jewish comments in #21's comments are true from Luther and are pure evil. Jesus was a Jew, so what was Luther talking about, Judaism? The average catholic were mostly unable to read the bible and waited for the priest to read for them and tell them god's word, when they wanted too.
Christendom reformed because they had stayed so far from the bible's teachings they could reform. No where did it say kill Jews or anyone. So Christenndom could reform.
Islam cannot reform because allah's words are etched in stone. If Muslims reformed, then there is no Islam and thus allah will be a farce!
Proudkafir. I didn't know you had a well-developed sense of humor as well. I really liked it!
Now to answer your yet another black and white question.. You wrote "I meant to ask you” if you think the concept of having sex with daughter in law is right or wrong “
Ok. I know this is going to be a bit too much for you backward black and white mind, but here goes it:
"The society means all that is around you – not you, but all that is around you. All, minus you, is the society. And everybody reflects. You will go to school and the teacher will reflect who you are. You will be in friendship with other children and they will reflect who you are. Society is concerned with itself, and that's how it should be."
"They (society) are not concerned that you should become a self-knower. They are concerned that you should become an efficient part in the mechanism of the society. You should fit into the pattern. So they are trying to give you an ego that fits with the society. They teach you morality. Morality means giving you an ego which will fit with the society. If you are immoral, you will always be a misfit somewhere or other. That's why we put criminals in the prisons – not that they have done something wrong, not that by putting them in the prisons we are going to improve them, no. They simply don't fit. They are troublemakers. They have certain types of egos of which the society doesn't approve. If the society approves, everything is good. "
"One man kills somebody – he is a murderer. And the same man in wartime kills thousands – he becomes a great hero. The society is not bothered by a murder, but the murder should be committed for the society – then it is okay. The society doesn't bother about morality. Morality means only that you should fit with the society. If the society is at war, then the morality changes. If the society is at peace, then there is a different morality."
"Morality is a social politics. It is diplomacy. And each child has to be brought up in such a way that he fits into the society, that's all. Because society is interested in efficient members. Society is not interested that you should attain to self-knowledge. "
Do you get what the above four paragraphs trying to tell? Tell me if you don't and I will explain them to you. I think with that you also get your answer. Mr D.
Raisin Head wrote:
Now as far as the Trinity is concerned, every world power had a trinity. Jesus said his FATHER is greater than he is John 14:28 and John 3:16 said God sent Jesus to do his works. Jesus said pray to his god and our god, pray to my father and your father. If Jesus was god why didnt he say pray to him. A god is a god regardless.
Ok then why did Jesus have no problem when people did worship him these examples.
Matthew 2:11
On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary and they bowed down and worshipped him.
Matthew 9:18
While he was saying this, a ruler came and knelt before him and said, my father has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live.
Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshipped him saying you are the Son of God.
Matthew 28:9
Suddenly Jesus met them "Greetings", he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshipped him.
Matthew 28:17-18
When they say him they worshipped him, but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said "All authority in heaven and on earth had been given to me.
John 9:38
Then the man said, " Lord, I believe and he worshipped him.
Now in Jewish theology worshipping anyone besides God was a mortal sin. So why would Jesus let people worship him when it was a mortal sin to do so?
John 10:33
We are not stoning you for any of these, they replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you a mere man, claim to be God.
Here's the answer
John 14:10-11
Don't you believe that I am in the father and that the father is in me. The words I just said to you are not my own. Rather it is the father, living in me who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the father and the father is in me, or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
While it was ok for the Jews to refer to themselves as the sons of God in the old testament, but in the time of Jesus, referring to one self as the son of God was considered blasphemy.
Ok. I see. Now Mr/Ms/Mrs Raisin Head and Mr/Ms/Mrs Marie have jumped in to save proudkafir! That's OK. I am not having a debate either. Just playing with Ali Sina and 'all you guys' like I would with a 4 year old!
Molvi_Sittar wrote:
Ok. I see. Now Mr/Ms/Mrs Raisin Head and Mr/Ms/Mrs Marie have jumped in to save proudkafir! That’s OK. I am not having a debate either. Just playing with Ali Sina and ‘all you guys’ like I would with a 4 year old!
That's because pedophilia is the only thing you are good at.
By the way we are not having a debate, more like a friendly disagreement. No harm intended.
Marie: How do you know I am (just) good at it? I could be THE BEST!
Marie said "By the way we are not having a debate, more like a friendly disagreement. No harm intended."
Yes I agree. So who said anything about any 'harm intended'?
#68 Jesus at birth was bowed down to by Satan's followers. The wise men came from Satan, possible Iran, as stargazers, which was against god.
The Jews at the time of Jesus were from Judaism and not the OT. Jesus didnt even interfaith with them. Remember they were Sadducees and Pharisees all a part of Judaism, not the Mosaic Law which Jesus came to fulfill freeing us from slavery.
Because they were under Judaism, the teachingas of rabbis who had lost god's favor, the Jews were against calling men sons of god, but Jesus called us children of god. He called himself a son of god. remember he said in John 14:28 the Father is greater than I am.
John said The father and I are one like it says the man and woman are one in UNION. After Jesus healed them and did such good they thought he was god, but Jesus never said worship me. He always said worship the Father. 1 Cor 8:6
Now if Jesus was god he already owned the world. If he was GIVEN authority, it didnt belong to him anyway.
The OT Jews were not the same type Jews in the 1st century. They had been paganized under Iran while the Jews were captives in Iran.
54. Poma Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:47 am
Dear MOlvi..
so sorry for my post coz i was not mention clearly my post..
even Paki ppl are saying tht it happens coz of Muslims…
…tell me wat happened in Karachi yesterady..
whos fault is this…yes Government..i agree wid you..bt look Brother who are doing,…Government is Muslim and you are too..y dont you ppl come on Roads to stop all this shit..y u are not stopping your brothers and sisters to let us live..
we are afraid to go to Churches…
missinory schools are closed in Lahr and pindi..thy have sucside threats…whos fault is this,..not urs not mine…bt look who are doing this Muslims…on whos name u know well more thn me…i know ths is really bad..no human being really like..even Muslims are killing Muslims..i know wat ever is happing in Pakistan..
whn they hit Marriot…
my frnd House windows also got scratches…..this is not only muslims country
this is Christians country as well..
and this is not islamic country at all
if u know the meaning of Pakistan thn tell me wat it means..
Allah is ONe.this is the meaning of Pakistan
so simple you call ALLAh and we Call God..so one thing is Clear GOd is ONE..so jst stop all this tht Pakistan is Islamic county…its is NOT at all..y Christians are not allowed to Preach openly..
why the Hell is 295C.
so simple na
u can say to Chirstians and do to us wat ever u wanna say…bt Christians are not allowed….y y y
can u gimme the answer..there are many Islamic Channels working…bt y not a singal Channel…
who is in fault..
definatly you…
you agree wid me r not..bt its ur fault…wat ever is happening to Christians u dnt stop ppl…bt now things comming to you and now u r shouting..
man wat ever written in Bible ab8 Christians is happening to Christians..so Christians are not Worried…
y They pay Jazia to tht So called Muslims…
first come to humanity thn talk ab8 religions…
y they leave tht country…this is theire county…
they live there…there grand Parents died in tht country..
there Christian Army man Died to defend Pakistan.y they leave and pay thm for living freely in this country…if u say u r preaching peace..thn come on roads and ask ur govenment ab8 all this…answer me..man…I Love Muslims…bt i really hate Teaching of Islam…and u have to agree wid me..
dnt make frndship wid Jews r Christan…
y we are worst Creations…
bla bla…
man do u really have mind…
who is really creating Problem…
not you not me..
only Islam…
and i’m sure if u r really a humanity lover..thn u will b agree wid me..
Love and Prayers for you
Dear Mr Molvi my Commet number 54 is waiting for ur answer…
Love and Prayers for you
Dear Poma: I have answered these question at least a thousand times.
Look at your childish questions:
"Government is Muslim and you are too..y dont you ppl come on Roads to stop all this shit..y u are not stopping your brothers and sisters to let us live..
we are afraid to go to Churches…"
Why don't people come out on the roads? Because they are too damn scared of getting blown up in a bomb. There are wild raging Talibans just 100 miles from the capital telling everyone to stop shaving their beards. Would you go out or send your kids out in a situation like this just to protest? Say yes, and I will know for sure that you are a liar. And what about a Muslims government for Muslim people? DO you think the entire world share your guru's ideology? Rubbish. Get Real X 1,000,000,000,000,000,000.
"if u know the meaning of Pakistan thn tell me wat it means..
Allah is ONe.this is the meaning of Pakistan
so simple you call ALLAh and we Call God..so one thing is Clear GOd is ONE..so jst stop all this tht Pakistan is Islamic county…its is NOT at all..y Christians are not allowed to Preach openly.."
I think Pakistan means something else. Not what you said. I don't know exactly but it's got something to do with 'holy land' or something. Google up. I have no time for this.
Just tell me, who are you actually pretending to be? A Christian from Pakistan? Is that who you actually are?
And love and prayers for you too, Poma
My my my.You got my sense of humor! Right .Islam is serious business and no humor please.
Did I understand what you have written? in simple terme it's called bullshitting.When your isalmically trained brain can not give a clear answer, it means that your son should hide his wife from you.I do hope he is reading this arguement of yours.
You have not said it's immoral to have sex with daughter in law.Instead you went in to a long fart of an arguement as to what society is etc.I am quite well aware of the moral and etihical values of moslems in islamci society and in Non islamic society.Society consists of people with different thoughts and actions and some degree of freedom.i islamic societies it's ok for father in law to screw a daughter in law.Its the norm and there is nothing wrong.in Islamic society its ok for a 55 year old to screw a 6 year old girl.its the norm.
What we are concerned is that the moslem animals when they come to live in non islamic countries, want to practice the same norms as in islamic societies.
You got – 5 points and lost all your goody points.You are fit to be a moslem and nothing else.if at least ones you had agreed that it's immoral for father in law to screw ones daughter in law, I would have accepted that there is hope for improvement. Considering your long winded crap, i see no hope at all.Be endarkened and be in islmic paradise.I only hope your son reads your thoughts and keeps his wife safe from your moslem or animal instincts.,
74. Molvi_Sittar Says:
April 24th, 2009 at 6:54 am
Dear Poma: I have answered these question at least a thousand times.
SORRY FIRST OF ALL COZ I'M NEW IN THIS WEBSITE SO I REALLY DONT KNOW WHERE U ANSWER
Look at your childish questions:
YES I AGREE THT I'VE CHAILDISH QUESTIONS.I AGREE COZ I'M JST 25 AND BORN IN SO LOVING FAMILY THT I DONT EVEN COME TO KNOW THT I'M 25 NOW.BT STILL MY MOM SAY ME U R CHILD SO DONT GO OUT LATE NIGHT R AFTER DINNER
BT MY QUESTION IS WHO IS BURNING CHURCHES IN PAKISTAN.CHRISTAINS R SOME ONE ELSE.
WHO ARE RAPPING CHRISTIAN GIRLS AND FORCING THM TO CONVERT TO ISLAM.
DEFINATLY NOT CHRISTIANS COZ IF THY RAPE THY DONT ASK GIRLS CONVERT TO ISLAM,AND MARRY A PERSON WHO IS DOUBLE OF THER AGES
MAN U KNOW IF U GET KILLED WHILE KILLING NON-MUSLIMS U'LL GO IN HEAVEN SO U'LL GET 72 VIRGANS.SO THEY ARE PREACHING A REAL ISLAM…HOW DAER U HID ISLAM AND HOW DAER YOU CALL THM TERRORIST
THEY ARE MUSLIMS MAN,RESPECT UR BRPTHERS WHO ARE PROMOTING REAL ISLAM………
U R HIDING ISLAM.SHAME ON YOU
DONT PALY A GAME LIKE OTHER MUSLIMS…
U KNOW VERY WELL WAT ARE THE MEANING OF PAKISTAN IF U R FROM PAKISTAN..IF I KNOW THE MEANING THN U SHOULD KNOW
PLZ DO FORGIVE ME
MEANING OF PAKISTAN
LA IL LAHA ILL LAL LAHA
MEANS ALLAH IS ONE
OKIES COME TO POINT YOU CALL ALLAH
WE CALL GOD
ACCORDING TO U ALLAH IS ONE(ALTHOUGH I DONT AGREE)
ACCORDING TO US GOD IS ONE
SO WE HAVE ONE GOD
SO THIS IS NOT A MUSLIM R ISLAMIC COUNTRY
AND MY DEAR BROTEHR I REALLY KNOW THE REALITY OF CHRISTIANS IN PAKISTAN..THING IS HIDDEN…
MAY B U DNT NEED TO KNOW COZ NO BODY IS RAPPING MUSLIM GIRLS AND CONVERTING THM TO CHRISTIANITY
I DONT MEAN MUSLIM GIRLS ARE SAFE..
MUSLIM GIRLS ARE ALSO THE VICTUM OF RAPES…BT NEVER EVER HEARD THT IN PAKISTAN SOME CHRISTIANS RAPE MUSLIM GIRLS AND FORCE THM TO CONVERT THM TO CHRISTAINITY
AND MY QUESTIONS ARE STILL THERE
THEY ARE NOT ANSWER YET…
DID ALLAH CHOSEN ONE NEED TO CONFIRM THT HE IS PROPHET R NOT
Y HIS WIFE TOLD HER THT ITS WASNT SATAN IT WAS GABRIAL
HOW STUPIDE DEAR
GOD CHOSEN ONE DONT KNOW THT HE IS CHOSEN ONE
WHN HE GO TO MEET ALL
ON EVER SKY PERSON ASK HIM WHO U ARE
AND GABRIAL ANSWER HE IS LAST PROPHET
WAT A LOGIC
IF I'M SOME ONES GEUST THN HE WILL TELL HIS SERVENTS THT MY GUEST WILL COME AT THT TIME
MY B ALLAH FORGET AB8 THIS THING
IF HE IS THE CHOSEN ONE THN WHO PERSON ON HEAVEN DONT REGONIZE HIM..SURPRISING
IF HE IS REALLY CHOSEN ONE
THN Y HE IS NOT SURE AB8 HIS OWN JUDGEMENT
IF HE IS CHOSEN ONE THN ALLAH DID A BIG MISTAK
HE IS THE ONLY CHOSEN ONE FOR WHOME ALLAH CHANGE HIS ALL RULES..
MARRIAGE WID DAUGHTER IN LAW
MARRIAGE WID CHILD
SEX WID SLAVE GIRLS
AND DEAR SEX IS SEX…
EITHER WID SLAVE R WID PROSTITUTE
BT SEX IS SEX…BT IT WAS A HOLY SEX FOR UR PROPHET.
KILLING ALL REALTIVE IN FRONT OF A LADY AND SHE IS ACCEPTING ISLAM
R U MAD…
IF I KILL ALL
(I'M REALY SORRY I DONT MEAN THT JST EXAMPLE)IF I KILL U THN UR FATHER AND THEN UR SISTER HUSBAND INFRONT OF HER…
WILL SHE MARRY ME
SHE WILL MARRY ME COZ OF FEAR…
COZ IN FEAR PERSON GOES WIDOUT HIS/HER WILL…
SO ANSWER THESE CHILDISH QUESTIONS AGAIN
SEX IS SEX
THERE ISNT ANY HONLY SEX
SLEEPING WID YOUR WIFE IS NOT SEX…
BT SLEEPING WID OTHER IS SEX..
WHAT THE HELL IS THIS
IF UR WIFE DONT AGREE TO GO WID U ON BED
FORCE HER AND BEAT HER
THIS IS CALLED RAPE IN HUMANITY…BT IN ISLAM ITS CALLED RIGHT OF A MALE…
HOW ALLAH IS SO UNJUSTICE
Y WOMEN IS LOW THN MALE…
R U MAD…
UR MOM AND UR SISTER ARE ALSO FEMALE
R THY LOW FOR YOU…
I DONT THINK SO…U CARE AND LOVE UR SISTERS AND MOM ALOT…LIKE I…
HOW U CAN SAY THT NO WAY…Y LADIES ARE MORE INTELLIGENT THN MALES…
Y MY MOST OF FEMALE FAMILY MEMEBRS ARE DOCTOR
Y MY MOST OF FEMALE FAMILY MEMEBERS ARE TEACHERS AND STUDING IN BRITAIN AND TEACHING AS WELL…
Y THY ARE NOT DUMB..INFACT MANY MUSLIM GIRLS ARE DOING GREAT…THEY ARE MUCH MORE INTELLIGENT THT THEIR MALE FAMILY MEMEBRS…
COZ THY WANNA TELL ALLAH WAS MAD AT THT TIME COZ HE DIDNT KNEW THERE WILL B 21ST CENTERY WHN FEMALE GO ON TO MOON.
WHN FEMALE DRIVE PLANE
WHN FEMALE WILL PALY CRICKET,FOOTBALL
SO SAD OF ALLAH AND MUHMMAD THINKING
I'M STILL NOT AGREE WID YOU
GIVE ME MY ANSWERS…
Poma: those who are born to loving families would never agree with Ali Sina. Period. You are just pretending to be someone and something.
And yes all the Christians and good and all the Muslims are bad. Happy? But hang on, DO you know, out of 1600 or so medical seats for students in the Pakistani Punjab, how many are 'reserved' just for females? Just answer that!
No matter how different you write from each other, you guys all still sound remarkably similar to Ali Sina. And I wonder, why is that?
And sorry poma, I forget to say: Lot of love and Lots of peace upon thy!
Molvi-Sittar,
Madeline Albright said the other day that there should be no reason why not all Islamic countries could not be democratic. That Islam in fact is quite a democratic religion, she said. Tariq Ramadan definitely says that Islam and democracy can go together. And look at Turkey.
If most Islamic countries adopted real, strong democracy, most of us would lose fear of, hence interest in Islam. Eradication of it would not be very urgent anymore. We would probably all be friends and focus on new, common enemies, maybe organised crime or extra-terrestrials. So: I. Do Muslims prefer democracy over some sort of dictatorship or vice versa? II. What are the prospects of Islamic countries becoming really democratic? Especially if so many Muslims follow the softer version of Islam, as you say. Can they unequivocally side, even fight, demonstrate with us against would-be-tyrants like Taliban, Al Qaida, Ahmadinejad etc?
And please distinquish between tone and contents. People on this forum, Muslims included, have messages, important issues to discuss, which vex them. All sorts of people sometimes use harsh language. Is n't it better to react to the contents of the message, and ignore the way in which it is said? Endlessly we hear about "hate-filled, hate-speech, inciting hatred". As if that were our only motive, ridiculous! Often we get back nasty insults, or ridicule, every bit as hate-filled or more. Are'nt Muslims supposed to give a better example? Do you really think WE started it?
Most of the time it sounds like a cop-out, so people don't have to respond to the contents of the message any more. This arouses our suspicion that no one is really able to respond well to our message. But you at least answer on contents + everytime you do it, we appreciate it very much. (And your humor).
Dear Molvi
sorry for Late Reply
May the Blessing of the God be wid you and ur family..
Well mr.molvi…numbers and conditons are realy different…you cna see ur self..
i belive very very muslims are loving…bt if they are loving wid Non-Muslims thn thy are not on the way of ALLAH..so u should b..really i dont have any Problem wid thm if thy are loving wid Christians…infact i really love it…
Bt tell me…whn Christians Burnt Churches…
man come openly…
whn we listen the Zakir Nayk wid patience thn i surly know u r very much loving thn zakir Nayk..on one of his debeat zakir nayk said if girls are having periods thn thy can read and touch quran..tell me its against Islam rite..but on next he said..muslims are always pure ..bt every non-muslim is Najis and Napak means not pure….so this is wat the love is..man come on dear…
r u kidding
whn ur schoalrs preach this thn y u show love to us..
r u mad..
you scholars are reall god for u..u obey wat ever thy say..
Allah says kill disbelivers….who u r to show me love..i'm not against any one..
u again quote ali sina…he is not my relative…and i dont know who he/she is..
so stop quoting him..instead of it bt realistic..tell me wat Quran says ab8 non-muslims..
i love it tht u r loving..
bt u r still not giving answer of my questions..
my quesations are still there..y dont u clear my problems and save me from hell fire..so i can also enjoy wid 72 virgians…
hey bro help me and save me..
so i can mary 4 females…on earth…and have loads of maids so whn ever i wanna change my taste i can sex wid my slave girls…
and whn ever i wanna have sex i can go for MUTA…
and whn ever my wife say no for romance i can beat her and rape her…
i m male and i have all rights…BLOODY Islam kills women..
wat are you talking ab8 Islam…
i love tht u r not following islam…
coz if u follow islam..u will b same…u will not listen this and instead of this you will kill me..bt u r listening..
bt brother listening is not ok…
answer my questions…
y female is so shit in Islam…tell me
give me answer..
I really feel wat ever i m bt Praise The God i'm not Muslim…and i dont follow islam…
coz i know its really difficult to leave tht cult…coz Kill Who so Ever Leave the Religion
and u r talking ab8 freedom..you too dont have to choose wat is right and wrong and thn u are talking ab8 Peace,…whn u r not free who u can let us live in Peacce and Freedom..
man i still answers of my post number 74
if u r really a loving and caring person…and u wanna save me from hell..thn come and answer my Questions…
r other wise come to debeat.
May the Love and the Blessing of the God be wid you…
AMEEN
[...] in the Quran (Q.2:85, 6:114, 6:116, 2;174,16:89 39:23, 15: 90-92, 6:34, 10:64, 18:27). See this article also. That is why every attempt to modernize Islamic societies at the end fails. We Iranians have [...]
[...] prohibited in the Quran (2:85, 6:114, 6:116, 2;174,16:89 39:23, 15: 90-92, 6:34, 10:64, 18:27). See this article also. That is why every attempt to modernize Islamic societies at the end fails. We Iranians have [...]
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[...] has written the book Understanding Muhammad, which Fjordman reviewed previously at Jihad Watch: The Illusion of Reforming Islam Ali Sina (hat tip [...]
"I prefer jihadi Muslims to these “Muslims against Sharia,” fellows. With the jihadis I know my enemy. I do not trust Muslims who are against Sharia. I do not understand them. What they say does not add up. I don’t know what they are up to. I do not trust people who say, I am a follower of Muhammad, but I do not follow Muhammad. There is something fishy, something dishonest and hypocritical about their claim. "
Ali Sina: I have been telling fellow crusaders this for at least 2 years, since I first came across "Muslims Against the Sharia". But there is such a desperation for the mythical "moderate" muslims that many friends are (too) quick to embrace groups like M.A.S.
It is a confirmation of my initial instincts to see you write this.
Keep up the wonderful work you do. I pray you stay safe always.
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