Fatima and a Group of Young Muslims Leave Islam
Editor’s Note: More and more, groups of Muslims leave Islam. It is not always individuals on their own anymore. All it takes to leave Islam is to subject its creeds, belief system and moral code, to critical analysis and scrutiny, and to discuss incidents in the unholy life of its satanic prophet. Below is a short, yet telling, story of Fatima and her group of friends, on how and why they left Islam. Congratulation to this young and courageous group of apostates.
My name is Fatima Muhammad and I’m originally from Pakistan and born into a Muslim family. I was a Muslim for 19 years and went through many episodes of extreme devotion to Islam and sometimes less so. After watching many debates from Christopher Hitchens, Sams Harris etc., and also reading about Islam I gradually began to see a huge vacuum between what reality actually was, and how it was described by religion.
Also, Muhammad’s extremely evil nature convinced me that he was just a man, who exploited the Arabs to get his own way. Even if he did everything perfect, there is no way to reconcile his marrying 6-year-old Aisha, and then sexual intimacy when she was 9. It doesn’t matter if the Arabs practiced it. A man sent as a perfect example in all matters of life for the entire world till the end of times would never do this. And how could Allah’s morality be so warped that he was unable to tell Muhammad that it would be considered inappropriate in later centuries?
Anyway, there’s too much wrong in Islam to even begin to justify the good that it does occasionally contain. My brother and two other girls I know have also left Islam and we’re all from Pakistan. I wish Pakistan as a country would give up Islam and re-join with India since India is a progressive country, whereas Islam has literally reduced my country to chaos. Peace to everyone (including Jews) 
Here is a supplementary Video from another Ex-Muslim
Posted by Administrator
on July 27 2010. Filed under Apostates of Islam.
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Congratulations ……. to all of you for comming out from darkness…… May God bless you all …. and guide you in your bright future …….. A life with Truth, freedom and understanding …..
A wonderful, courageous decision indeed. As a fellow human being, I am concerned about your safety. As an Indian, I am happy that you want India and Pakistan to unite. Take care and have a great life ahead.
It was hard for me to look at her injuries, but I forced myself. Every time a woman says that Muhammad respected Womens rights, I will think of Nazanin.
To fatima & group
We welcome you with warm hearts to the realm of the free where you will find great relief from the bondage of Islam.
@administrator,
What's the relationship with the story & the video above!!! When Fatima is from Pakistan. Anyone can easily understand from her fake expression that this Iranian lady is actually lying. She look's like a by born physically impaired woman,as broken bones joint would never look like that also beaking thais is extremely likely impossible or might happened due to fatal road accedient/ car crash. No one get 3 years impressionment for not wearing head scarf. Its silly. Also no prision Guard would dare to rape a uni student even in case of 1,000% chaotic situation. But if it really have had happened then Iranian nationals are evils not religion. Then you, Ali sina and other Iranians irrespective of religion should equally guilty for your Iran's social criminalisation not the whole muslim worldwide.
I know most estrange Iranians make some fascinating story to get a refugee status or residency status to OECD countries. or to change religion. This is very common to Iranian socio -economic context and absolutely nothing to do with religion.
So the story is absolutely rubbish, shits & craps.
Dear Administrator,
Seems like you don't have any answer, like Ali Sina except propaganda. Even you don't have any evidence about Fatimas conversion. If you have authentic evidence should you not undoubtedly & accurately produce through this web site without any hesitation.
The letter you posted above does not generate anything meaningfull to me. Please feel free to release sufficient evidence including the expalanation of the video link.
Surprising @ Devon want's evidence about Fatima's conversion from Ali Sina. Ali Sina has been requesting for ages for somebody to provide evidence that Muhammed was who the muslims say he is – an ideal man and prophet. I haven't seen any evidence. The only evidence I see from the mad Mo's life is that he was a pedophile, a murderer and a marauder.
Mr. Jacko( tacko) trade,
You are a mad man like Ali Sina, who thinks to be jack of all trade from politics, to theology, psychology to sociology, , economics, criminology, philosophy, neurology, cosmology, Godology( probably the new branch) and all other branches of knowledge. Every time I visit this web site feel like we are living in an Socratice- Plato- Aristotolian era (this triangle were also jack of all trade).
But the world has advanced too high, we don't need any jack of all trade, but require specialised skills due to competitive demand.
If any lunatic ask for evidence to show him when sun rises in the morning. Is there any need to explain him!!! Now you compare what Ali sina is asking about Prophet Muhammad.
I am surprise reading (free internet copy) his evil interpretation about the prophet in psychobiography of prohet. and some other articles on internet. Now I have no doubt about his mental health. Only a person with severely psychologically paranoid can mis interpret write things such a way. But people do not really have time to reseach and refute those baseless logical arguments.
Logic is a think like- Cows eat grass, we eat cows , so we eat grass. Very strong logic but base less.
If you check on internet, you may find thousands of this tpye of web site, and there prpaganda, people will still follow religion,no one cares what these Ali Sinas are saying. people will still convert to Islam, europe & north america will still accept muslim migrants, a mosque will be built at Ground Zero.
This is called the tradegy of Life of Ali Sina. One day Canadian Government might declared him as a security risk for that country. He might need to seek refugee status to another country. Life for him is a living Hell. But he does not understand the concept of Hell & Heaven.
@Devon
" If any lunatic ask for evidence to show him when sun rises in the morning. Is there any need to explain him!!! Now you compare what Ali sina is asking about Prophet Muhammad."
What a stupid argument from you.
shamu16,
things are simple. If Ali SIna or his few Ex muslim counterparties are so obsessed about Islam, Prophet and 1.6 million Muslim, Why don't they hang themself to take their own life, if there is no God, no afterlife, no Hell and Heaven.
So there will be no me chaos for them. But these scoundrel using Islam, writing craps as a bread earnings. Because this evil refugees got no good selling skills to make money, and utlimately became a security threat.
First u try bcoz u beleive u will get paradise, so c for ur self then comeback to prove us, bastard
@Devon:
Because it is the responsibility of every decent human being to stand up against slavery, against tyranny and against evil… That is what islam is and it is my job and all other ex-muslim’s responsibility to expose this cult of death… and we are doing so very successfully considering most people don’t even pray in iran anymore
The same Devon who has a racist view on trans-people was here and as usual this Muslim doesn’t have anything to bring but denial and denial. Let’s see:
He said:
“She look’s like a by born physically impaired woman,as broken bones joint would never look like that also beaking thais is extremely likely impossible or might happened due to fatal road accedient/ car crash.”
Are you a doctor? Please give some medical reference and explanation.
“No one get 3 years impressionment for not wearing head scarf.”
Why when I see this comment I see a cheap statement? Anyone knows? It’s too obvious it’s almost shameful to explain it. In my country there is a sharia law in Aceh and in there women MUST wear headscarf and no jeans. Morality Police keeps stopping the women from the street and give them some words as a first warning or else. This law is just a start, just wait until the next 10 or 20 years. In Afghan and Saudi? Bah, only a blind can overlook it.
“Also no prision Guard would dare to rape a uni student even in case of 1,000% chaotic situation”
Another cheap statement. Talking without proving. Concluding without basis. Where did this sentence come anyway? From research? Survey? World Statistic? Even Saudi’s prison guard can rape why not Iranian?
“I know most estrange Iranians make some fascinating story to get a refugee status or residency status to OECD countries. or to change religion. This is very common to Iranian socio -economic context and absolutely nothing to do with religion.”
Cheap statement again. Generalization is very common in defending this kind of thing. So he should have no problem giving another country (let’s say non muslim countries) with similar “social economic” condition as other examples, right?
I remember the words from an arrogant Muslim who said, “All Asian muslims act the same, think the same, and behave the same.”, “my friend act like this….”. So, by knowing his friend means he knows the whole continent. Really funny indeed. What did he miss here? Oh, yes he missed the explanation as why Iranians have become refugee in the first place and why they need to RUN from their land just because they change religion. It’s typical, isn’t it? Always leave something unfinished. Ah, I remember Ahmadi sect who want to get refugee status in Australia. Maybe their problem is socio economic too. No, religion has nothing to do with that, why? It’s because I say so, duh.
“But if it really have had happened then Iranian nationals are evils not religion.”
What does this mean? Does this mean he’s not sure about this himself? First, he was convinced to deny this article and now he doubted it? When he accused Iranian nationals as being evil and excluded religions as the cause then he must bring proof and example, not just empty words like this. Can this muslim show me the same treatment of women in non Muslim countries?
“Even you don’t have any evidence about Fatimas conversion”
Every article or letter about apostate is of course classified, other wise it will risk the life of subject. On the contrary I can say the same to countless articles and videos promoting Islam as NON EVIDENCE. Same sentence same meaning stronger reason.
“So the story is absolutely rubbish, shits & craps.”
See? This kind of statement makes his position weak. Mentioning it as a fake is sufficient enough but he chose these 3 unnecessary words. How can someone believe a person with full emotion like this?
I really enjoy this guy’s writing, first he wrote a logical sentence like:
“But the world has advanced too high, we don’t need any jack of all trade, but require specialised skills due to competitive demand.“
But suddenly the next sentence was totally absurd:
“If any lunatic ask for evidence to show him when sun rises in the morning. Is there any need to explain him!!! Now you compare what Ali sina is asking about Prophet Muhammad”
Even a random blind man knows that the sun rises every morning because it can be felt with his body. But why he compared to it Muhammad? Does a random blind man (let’s say a man without any knowledge at all) know about him whether as a proven prophet or not automatically? What kind of sentence is this? Fact is faith and faith is fact? Ali Sina’s book is a logical deduction taken from Muslim sources themselves while sun rise is a clear fact. His brain really amuses me.
“I am surprise reading (free internet copy) his evil interpretation about the prophet in psychobiography of prohet. and some other articles on internet. Now I have no doubt about his mental health. Only a person with severely psychologically paranoid can mis interpret write things such a way”
Who would believe this statement? Muslim maybe? With all their subjective feeling which is by far not surprising at all. The main issue is that he didn’t explain why:
1. Ali Sina’s interpretation is evil
2. Ali Sina is mentally sick
3. The book is the result of a misinterpretation
4. He has the credibility to declare someone as psychologically paranoid
He’s spewing emotion just like always. On the next sentence his inability to prove and refute anything becomes clear through this sentence:
“But people do not really have time to reseach and refute those baseless logical arguments.”
I say, Bingo. It seems our little friend here doesn’t even realize the presence of scholars around the world who are dedicated to study solely on religions in their entire life. Excuse is for a loser.
“Logic is a think like- Cows eat grass, we eat cows , so we eat grass. Very strong logic but base less.”
Wait. Is there something wrong with this human? I’m at loss reading this. Logic is a process of analysis using 2 or more facts as inputs resulting to logical conclusions as outputs. His 3 sentences were all facts and inputs at the same time. Why would the sentence like “we eat grass” which is obviously wrong become an output? We use logic when we have enough information (input) to find something which is previously unknown (output), not like this. The correct one should be like this:
Input 1: Every cow eats grass (correct) => can be used
Input 2: Humans eat cows (correct in majority) => can be used
Input 3: Humans eat grass (wrong) => cannot be used
Input 4: Grass and cow both contain nutrients (correct) =>can be used
Output 1: So, cows get nutrients from grass then majority of humans get nutrients from cows which eat grass.
Output 2: Grass is somehow got processed by cow so that human can eat the cow
It seems he didn’t even know what logic is. If you already know something you don’t need logical analysis to find an answer. Mo was attracted to 6 years old (already known from hadith), someone who’s attracted to 6 years old in this era is called a pedophile (already known), so Mo is a pedophile in this era (this is a conclusion since this statement doesn’t exist anywhere in history which makes it unknown previously).
Let’s take a look at faith. Faith is a think like – Hey, we have a creator, the creator is Allah and he wants us to subdue this earth, so we just do it. He must be right because we think he’s right. Very strong faith, but it’s still unproven and of course baseless. What he didn’t know is that everyone uses logic in their everyday life whether they realize it or not. Even Muslims like to use logic (circular) which he has deemed as baseless.
“If you check on internet, you may find thousands of this tpye of web site, and there prpaganda, people will still follow religion,no one cares what these Ali Sinas are saying. people will still convert to Islam, europe & north america will still accept muslim migrants, a mosque will be built at Ground Zero. “
Is the same also applied to Islamic propaganda? Change the subject to Islam, religion to secularism, convert to apostate, etc. The world is vast and people are mostly ignorant at some extent. The nature of human is complex and selfish. Take smoking for example, many Islamic scholars had issued haram fatwa and governments gave full support with daily advertisement and warning of smoking. Even after all of that we still can’t get rid of smoking. Humans are too many and too ignorant even a clear upper ground campaign with full support of everyone has failed. In my country the movie 2012 is haram but that fatwa is useless because many people are still watching it. Another example is the campaign of global warming which has failed to produce any significant result even after the topic is posted almost everywhere. Now, we should expect the bigger obstacle with underground movements like FFI and other site considering the danger. It of course takes time but slowly it will be known to people because this issue will affect them sooner or later. Islam in my country doesn’t have any significant influence to the masses anymore as you can find many unislamic elements here which will shock any true muslim.
We don’t need anyone to teach us that or maybe he wrote that to feel much better over his incapability to defend and prove Islam. Ground Zero? His true feeling is slowly but surely revealed as a true muslim. Truth is indeed cannot be hidden for long.
Some sentences from video which are facts on real life:
1. Islam is a failure = consistent with present day Muslim world which is backward
2. Islam is rape = consistent with abusive behavior towards women in Muslim world and it’s sanctioned in Quran too
3. Women are not human = consistent with her position as woman and of course many cases of discrimination towards them made her say that. Recent example is woman without nose and ears in Afghanistan. Maybe that’s a fake too? Can our “doctor” enlighten us?
4. They are worth half = Very accurate, woman testimony and inheritance is also worth half of men, and in Saudi their blood money also half of men.
5. Islam is oppression = true, oppression of non muslim and women alike, don’t forget about sectarian oppressions.
So, there are 2 possible scenarios:
1. This video is a fake, but those 5 points still remains undisputed
2. This video is real then those 5 points will strengthen the case
Either way, Islam is the culprit of almost every bad thing in Middle East. Even if there is some small elements which are unislamic still Islam does nothing to change it or against it thus making it useless and destructive at the same time.
Every time I visit this site I always see no Muslims counter or refute anything and they love to make comment like, “no one refute me”, you don’t have any answer”, etc. They also have the habit of using selective article (apostate in letter section is the favorite) to show their “opinion”. Why oh why?
Moooo
Excellent arguments. Keep it up.
@Moooo
You some sort of psychological analyst? Good analysis of bad logic from devon.
Mr. Moooooo,
Fact denies logics where logics are fallacies.
"a random blind man knows that the sun rises every morning because it can be felt with his body." Theis is a good effort of idiotic logics. which your one dimentional brain only can think. Blind can not feel the sun shine in a chill frosty day. no matter whether he feels or not but Sun will still rise as an absoulte thruth and does not have any impact on Sun. So prophet Muhammad is an absolute thruth, whether blind you or Ali Sina feel or not.
I am not surprised about your understanding of facts due to the quality of high school education you received. you only understand -1+-1= -2, or -1+-1 = +2, which is an school maths., But the fact is -1+-1 = 0, to understand this you need some quality education.,
You are amazed about Ali Sina's lunatic interpreation of fact using logics which also teach you -1+-1=-2, or +2, but real world its value is – '0',. He does not understand the basic difference between the splitting moon and two full moon. He does not understand the basic difference between mental disorder & high intuition. apparently look like he never seen a mentally disorder patient and read some articles in the newpaper or mazagine about lunatism which he tried to describe by evil motivation of his autistic inner circle.
Also reading your failed ANALYTICAL effort I understand that you still live in a kids zone, did you watch the video! her expression saying she is a big liar. Who recorded this video!! where is the copy right!! your Ache brain can not think that level. How many Fatimas are there in Pakistan! what is the evidence that the posted letter is true while administor can not produce any evidens, as he knows himself, its a complete lie.
Any way, I am not going to give you much details because neither you not Ali Sina will pay me for the job. And free service is always up to a limited edition. But its always fascinating for you to have toddler supporter Bharat.user & Shamu16.
Allah in Quran is not the God of the Bible
Muslims believe that Allah in Quran is the God of the Jews, the Christians and everyone else. When examining the profile of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and comparing it with Allah’s profile, there are a number of distinct differences between them that can only result in one conclusion: These profiles simply do not match! Allah is NOT the God of the Bible! One of them is true, the other is false (fabricated).
There are a number of major differences between the God of the Bible and Allah. According to the Holy Scriptures, the God of the Bible is the one true God while Allah is a false god.
God’s Begotten Son
The Hebrew Scriptures clearly teach that God has a begotten Son. The Old Testament reference can be found in Psalm 2:6-7, which states:
2:6 “I myself have installed my king on Zion, my holy hill.”
2:7 The king says, “I will announce the LORD’S decree. He said to me:
‘You are my son! This very day I have become your father!
2:8 Ask me, and I will give you the nations as your inheritance, the ends of the earth as your personal property.
Though the Muslims are taught that this passage refers to King David, David was begotten of Jesse. Therefore, this passage clearly teaches that the God of the Bible has an actual begotten Son.
As fulfilled in the New Testament, Luke 1:30-32, 34-35 declares that He was born of a virgin:
1:30 So the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God! 1:31 Listen: You will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David. 1:33 He will reign over the house of Jacob 1 forever, and his kingdom will never end.” 1:34 Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I have not had sexual relations with a man?” 1:35 The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called the Son of God.
Though both Old and New Testaments teach that God has a begotten Son, the Koran emphatically rejects Allah having a son. In the following Suras, Muhammad declares:
The Believers
Sura 23.91 “Never did Allah take to Himself a son, and never was there with him any other god—
The Distinction
Sura 25.2 “He, Whose is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and Who did not take to Himself a son, and Who has no associate in the kingdom, and Who created everything, then ordained for it a measure.”
In direct opposition to the Koran, Jesus teaches in John 3:16-18 that He, as God’s only begotten Son, is the only way to eternal salvation and everlasting life. He also instructs that those who deny Him as the only begotten Son of God are doomed to destruction:
3:16 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 3:18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned.
With respect to this passage, John 3:18 is just as important as John 3:16 when considering the teachings of Muhammad in the Koran. John 3:18 declares condemnation to those who do not believe “in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Meanwhile, Muhammad teaches to reject God’s Son.
Throughout the New Testament, the message that Muhammad rejects remains consistent. Jesus Himself continues to testify in John 14:6 and Matthew 10:32-33 the following:
• John 14:6 “…I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.”
• Matthew 10:32-33 “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. (33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”
Since this chapter illustrates that Allah is NOT the God of the Bible, there is only one conclusion that can be made: According to Exodus 20:2-3, Deuteronomy 6:4, Deuteronomy 32:39, Isaiah 44:6, and John 17:3, the LORD God of the Bible and His only begotten Son reject Allah. Allah is not a true G(g)od. Therefore, he is a false god!
God in bible said to the Jews “I’ll bless who bless you and curse who curse you’; but Allah and Muhammed in Quran cursed the Jews. So Allah is not God of the bible.
God is holy and hates sin, God can never send messenger who kills and steals and rapes and commits sin. So God in Bible is not Allah in Quran.
Posted in Scribd by Viviansteven
How to Become Christian
If you are a Muslim and wants to turn to Christianity, you do not need to change your name and you do not need to change your National Identification Card from religion Muslim to Christian, We know that this is impossible. All you need to become Christian is to be baptized. By Baptism you receive the Holy Spirit of God Jesus Christ. During Baptism, the priest put you in water and put holy oil on your forehead and pray, thus the Holy Spirit descends on you and you become Christian. The Holy Spirit gives the person clean thought, without evil thinking, gives wisdom in God’s ways, protects you from committing evil actions. Above all and most important is that no one will enter the paradise of God Jesus Christ without being peptized. It is the down-payment for entry to paradise; the remaining is to live a holy, clean life without bad actions or thoughts according to the Ten Commandments and the rules of the bible.
Jesus says in Mark 16:15-16, ". . ."Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."
Acts 2:38 reads, "and Peter said to them,
Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Before going to the priest for baptism, you have to fast 40 days. The Christian fasting is easy, you can eat all types of fruits on earth, all types of vegetables, you can drink your coffee and tea at any time, you can cock with plant oil and plant margarine. All what is not allowed is animal products and chicken. Fish of all kinds is allowed.
Second thing you have to read the New Testament bible, or at least the first 4 books of it; you can read the Old Testament also if you are really committed to God Jesus Christ. Third you pray regularly and ask God to help you and guide you and forgive your past wrong doing.
If you have accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior, you can be sure you are a Christian. You are not a Christian because you go to church, or because you do good things. The Bible says "If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9). Christ came to die for our sins, so that "To all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God" (John 1:12 ).
The Bible tells us “If we draw near to God, He will draw near to us” (James 4:8). You can start growing in your relationship with God right now.
You can receive Christ right now. Remember that Jesus says, "I'm standing at the door and I'm knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in."15 Would you like to respond to his invitation? Here's how.
This prayer might help you:
"Jesus, I want to know you. I want you to come into my life. Thank you for dying on the cross for my sin so that I could be fully accepted by you. Only you can give me the power to change and become the person you created me to be. Thank you for forgiving me and giving me eternal life with God. I give my life to you. Please do with it as you wish. Amen."
Ask God to forgive you of your sins and to give you his Holy Spirit. Get baptized. Study your bible. Fellowship with others who believe the bible is true.
You can buy copy of the bible easily from the small library attached inside every church. No one will ask you any question. It costs two pounds up to thirty pounds.
Warning: 1- All sins can be forgiven except blasphemy on the Holy Spirit. So if you are not honest in becoming a Christian do not go for Baptism till you are sure. 2 – There is no sex in paradise of God Jesus Christ.
Posted in Scribd by Viviansteven
Devon,
As always, I’m still dealing with selective responses from muslims. You are just like others. Let’s see:
You said, “Fact denies logics where logics are fallacies.”
Wrong statement. Fact denies faith and logical fallacies. Logic has some fallacies, not logic is fallacy.
You said, “Theis is a good effort of idiotic logics. which your one dimentional brain only can think. Blind can not feel the sun shine in a chill frosty day. no matter whether he feels or not but Sun will still rise as an absoulte thruth and does not have any impact on Sun. So prophet Muhammad is an absolute thruth, whether blind you or Ali Sina feel or not.”
Oh dear oh dear. Chill frosty day don’t happen everyday in a year, does it? Unless that you live in a north pole which is of course very hard for any human let alone a blind man. Do you even know a weather named summer? Do you even aware that blind men all over the world live through summer too? Do you even aware that blind man’s skin can feel warm and heat? If the blind feel that, he/she will ask about it and the normal people will say it’s the sun. That will be his/her concept of sun. What you didn’t realize is that I stated the sun as a clear fact and Muhammad as a faith. This main issue was clearly avoided by you. You picked “the blind man” which was only my hyperbole responding to your statement about “any lunatic” which – I assume- was normal. So, the main issue is that you cannot compare the sun rise which is very obvious (fact and we both agree to that and that’s why I don’t understand why you picked this) to normal human eyes (even a blind man can feel) to Muhammad which is no more than a faith (you ignored this part). So, if I ask whether Muhammad is a true prophet or not then you have to prove it. When I ask whether Muhammad is a pedophile or not, again you have to prove it. Do you understand? Or I need to repeat it again? You are having a really hard time to digest argument, aren’t you? So, to ease up your “little brain” I will give you a very simple kindergarten summary:
The sun = fact, why? It’s because it’s visible and can be felt. Example: you, Devon. You wouldn’t say like that if you haven’t seen or felt it yourself. Also, you wouldn’t say the same thing about alien, would you? Know the difference?
Muhammad = faith, why? It’s because he’s not visible to anyone. The best you can do is to believe it from old stories. Just like that, nothing more.
These 2 things are very different. That’s my core point which you’ve missed. Comparing these 2 would be a logical fallacy just like your own accusation. Did you only mention this “sun” (we both agree) in order to have a word or 2 against me, for the sake of refuting me?
You said, “I am not surprised about your understanding of facts due to the quality of high school education you received. you only understand -1+-1= -2, or -1+-1 = +2, which is an school maths., But the fact is -1+-1 = 0, to understand this you need some quality education.”
I’m also not surprised to see no refutation from you and you didn’t even point to me about how my statement about your “logic” is wrong. -1 + -1 = 0? Tell me, where did you get this lesson? Feeling lesson? Biased tendency to idolize someone? Can you give some example? Let’s assume that there is certain condition which renders math impossible to become part of this particular logic, could you give me that “certain condition”, instead of using personal attack? Is your presence here only to spew your ego or educate people? Is this behavior was the result of your high school moral education? Protesting without explaining and posting without proving?
You said, “You are amazed about Ali Sina’s lunatic interpreation of fact using logics which also teach you -1+-1=-2, or +2, but real world its value is – ‘0′,. He does not understand the basic difference between the splitting moon and two full moon. He does not understand the basic difference between mental disorder & high intuition. apparently look like he never seen a mentally disorder patient and read some articles in the newpaper or mazagine about lunatism which he tried to describe by evil motivation of his autistic inner circle.
First of all, when I look at his book I look at the opponent to compare them. So far I don’t see any good argument to counter his, all I see is complaint and more complaint. If you interpreted mine as “amazed” then you were looking into yourself (Your feeling towards Muhammad). Second, if he doesn’t understand the difference between:
1. Splitting and copying then you can explain it here, not complaining like this and left it unfinished. To satisfy your ego I assume? Are you talking about one of Islamic miracle, splitting the moon?
2. Mental disorder and high intuition then you must fix that here. Give the exact details about the characteristic of people with mental disorder and high intuition based on reliable references then you add some comparison to differentiate them. So, if according to you, by reading some articles in newspapers makes you an expert in this field and can gives you the ability to refute other “expert”, then be my quest, show your expertise. Everyone is watching and waiting, doctor.
Lastly, if I’m not mistaken Ali Sina used Sam Vaknin as his source on narcissism, you can start from him. Show the mistake right here right now. I hope you don’t use lame excuse like you always do to avoid it. Muslims are watching this, you know.
You said, “Also reading your failed ANALYTICAL effort I understand that you still live in a kids zone, did you watch the video! her expression saying she is a big liar. Who recorded this video!! where is the copy right!! your Ache brain can not think that level. How many Fatimas are there in Pakistan! what is the evidence that the posted letter is true while administor can not produce any evidens, as he knows himself, its a complete lie.
Failed analytical effort? Does it look like that to the readers or only in your eyes? I think you need to explain more detail on how I have failed. I live in kid zone? How so? Is that your analysis? You obviously missed all my points about Iranian woman. I watched the video and I don’t have the right or the proof to judge whether she was a fake or not since I don’t make my decision on feeling like you or like a kid. I already said in my previous comment that there is no evidence to determine that. So, what did I see in that video? I see the 5 points she made in that video and confirm it in real world. Are those 5 points real or not? That’s my point. One (let’s pretend it’s fake) video doesn’t change those 5 points since there are many incidents similar to this happen which most of it are hidden from public.
Copy right? Video on religions especially apostate of Islam needs a copyright? Do you want to do business here so that everyone can’t distribute it except they pay you? Are you aware that apostates are in danger including their supporters (in this case, the one who recorded it)? Just try giving a group of muslims an apostate’s information and their supporters, we’ll see what will happen. Or are you hoping to know it yourself so that you can…
About Fatima, that’s an anonymous. You don’t think Fatima is her real name, do you? Why would anyone mention their real names on apostate section? You didn’t read my previous post about Fatima and why there is no evidence. You like to repeat useless argument, don’t you? On the contrary just like the Iranian woman, there is no evidence to determine it as fake or real, not even you so your accusation is also baseless. I’ll do it again, one (let’s pretend it’s a fake) Fatima doesn’t change the fact that apostate exists since there are many incidents similar to this happen which most of it are hidden from public unlike conversion.
You said, “Any way, I am not going to give you much details because neither you not Ali Sina will pay me for the job. And free service is always up to a limited edition. But its always fascinating for you to have toddler supporter Bharat.user & Shamu16.”
Well, when I see this statement I have already known my answer to my above response. Either you always do something for money or you don’t have any argument. Many muslims are watching this and they will be “enlighten”, also non muslims may think Islam as religion of peace because of your “great” argument. Don’t you ever think like that or your brain never reaches that stage? Talking is indeed cheap. Excuse is, again and again, only for a loser.
They are my supporter? Just because they agree with me doesn’t mean they are always agreeing with me all the time. If you start to label everyone who agrees with someone as supporters then the word “agreement” itself should be erased from the dictionary and in everyday practice. I too sometimes can disagree with anyone here including non muslims depending on the issue. I wonder about who’s the kid now? A kid usually cries and shouts without good reason or explaining it, just showing their present emotion then left.
Now, when I deal with your kind, the selective respondent, I always add the ignored list, here:
1. Your medical reference and explanation about the Iranian woman
2. Morality Polices in Islamic countries
3. Your world statistic on prison guard’s behavior even in 1,000 % chaotic situation
4. Similar socio economic cases in non muslim nations to compare it with this article for a good example of socio economic phenomenon and for an addition, give me other reasons for refugee from Islamic countries other than Islam (I’m curious as why they always pick Islam as the cause)
5. My question about the cause of Iranians leaving their homes just because they change religion
6. My 5 points in video, you forgot about it or…
7. My 4 points about your deduction to Ali Sina’s mind
8. The logic of cow and human
9. The logic of pedophile and Muhammad
10. The concept of faith
11. Your hypocrisy to decide logic as baseless but at the same time using logic itself (like circular logic) not to mention other small matters which is easily missed.
Next time read the whole post, not just partially and carefully selecting the “looks like answerable” and “not answerable”. Stop that behavior.
shamu16,
I’m not a psychological analyst I’m just stating what I see.
See his sentence, “If Ali SIna or his few Ex muslim counterparties are so obsessed about Islam, Prophet and 1.6 million Muslim, Why don’t they hang themself to take their own life, if there is no God, no afterlife, no Hell and Heaven.”
Now, please choose between the 2:
1. He’s right about Ali Sina’s mental disorder => analyze his data if it’s existed => result?
2. He’s wrong about him (to fulfill his Islamic anger) and in order to make his accusation to become “true” he suggested Ali Sina and others to hang themselves.
Tell me, is he himself sure about his own accusation?
[...] Fatima and a Group of Young Muslims Leave Islam | Faithfreedom.org [...]
Mr. Mooooooooooo
The big fat cow headed man, is there anything important in your log big fat post as you don't know all fact may have logic but all logics are not facts. so logic without fact is fallacy. I don't understand the difference between moral & ethics, etics always supercede moral.
Mr. Cow, you said "you didn’t even point to me about how my statement about your “logic” is wrong. -1 + -1 = 0? Tell me, where did you get this lesson?"
That's why I advice you to spend some money to take quality education and don't flash off before switching on. if you sum up million times -1+-1+-1+-1+-1+-1+-1+-1+-1+-1( its value in the real world still ) =0,not = -1000,0000, ok! Mr. Moooo the gentle fat cow. If you buy 10 call, exercise price $21, the price at due date is 20, so value of call is 20-21=0, not, -1*10= -10, buying 5 put at $22, price at expiration is $25, so value is 0, not -$3,or $3
Apparently you have never been outside hot Indonesian 150 degree Fahrenheit zone, so you don't konow how Sun rises in southerner or northern Hemisphere, and some places at mid night. or only have 4-7 hours daylight. Mr. Moooo, I remember you had breast swelling up issue, So,are you still milking and making money!!!
You also confesed that all stories posted in this website is fake and nothing's real, this is very acceptable, So I advice you to discuss this isue with half educated Ali Sina and his illeterate administration to post mark on the front page "ALL STORIES POSTED IN THIS SITE ARE JUST SIMPLY MOCKEY, SO DON'T BE OFFENDED IF YOU BELONG TO FAITH"
Instead of "I don't understand", please read "You (Mooo) don't undersatnd" thanks
Well, I see you have zero understanding of what I have said. It's easy to just behave this way.You also didn't give me your certain condition regarding the issue on Muhammad here and divert it to price issue. IS diverting issue your specialty? Your argument is not clear and not always affect every situation. Be clear on how this certain condition can be applied to Muhammad.
Ah, a blind man again. Do I need to repeat my self? Read my previous comment about "core" issue here. You seems to get stucked easily on silly thing. A blind man can easily known about sun in many ways either by themselves or other unlike Muhammad. Indonesia is not the only hot country, in Russia people also can get hot weather. Is understanding this simple thing so hard for you? Are you so afraid to touch Muhammad issue?
No, I don't know if the video is real or not because there are no evidences but the lack of evidence is understandable considering the danger unlike your accusation which is not understandable. So, neither of you or I can claim anything. That's why I turn to 5 points which you have ignored. What's happen to my 11 points? You're just like that kid raef not to mention the personal attack. Your personality is clear for everyone to see.
I remind you again, Devon. Logic is an analysis using facts avaliable to find an answer. Logic itself is not fact, is a process. This is what you don't know. Logical fallacy is a wrong process either in one part or all parts. Talking to you is really amazing since you never respond correctly and our discussion never connect.
Mr. Moooooooooo,
This is now clear about your undersatnding of logics. The turth or facts always can not be difine in logical terms but factual. Not all logic will have to have facts, because some cases facts denies logics, but could eventually happen, but not all logics have touches the facts. logical fallacies are an effort of describing facts but without facts.So, you are right " logic itself is not fact, is a process"—– ???? describing things using arguments. So not all arguments are acceptable although there is logics in itself. This is called logical fallacies.
Moral issues, customs, religious believe, emotion also can not be described by logics. Logics mostly use in ethical matters. which is a debate between legal and ethical choice. Also logical debates are never concret, not an absolute matter, so logic is an art of reasoning but not necessarily factual.
The story of describing Fatima and Video link has logical fallacies, ( bad logics). Raping an Iranian woman by Iranian prison guard is nothing to do with religion. This is itself the people of Iran. As raping of beautiful christian woman 18 year old Luise Nicolas by 3 christian policemen is not the crime of christianity. A prostitues was fined by a police officer and then raped her in he police car is not cause of christinity., crime is a social phenomena, not the religious issue. but as an Iranian Ali Sina can not avoide his responsibility as an Iranian if such incident realy happened. He should be ashmed of fellow countryman.
Also judging between truth and lie is a quality issue. So according to my above description now anyone can conclude that Ali Sina's Psychobiography of Prophet is a book "FULL OF FACTLESS LOGICS, is a "DESCRIPTION OF LOGICAL FALLACIES." Logical fallacies are not refutible but require sense of urgency reject it.
*** pricing theory was just a simplified example for your understanding of real world situation, not to teach you math.
Devon the ill mouthed creature, what did I tell you earlier? I told you not to carefully selecting the “looks like answerable” and “not answerable”. But hey, you did it again. Did you even read it?
Let’s summarize it since you have a very hard times following the direction to the conclusion and keep diverting topic. Finish this first:
1. Logic is a process to find a result much closer to fact by eliminating non fact input. You’ve avoided my version of “the cow and the human” logic since the result of that logic is a fact.
2. 1 + 1 = 2 is a mathematical formula using a very simple rule, like Muhammad had daughters and sons, the sons died in infancy, so Muhammad only had and lived with daughters in his entire life (this is also a real life example). In real life we also have another rule as input and make it more complex and create relativity. To be put lightly, it has more inputs than 1 + 1 = 2 but the concept is still the same. But since you couldn’t use this on Muhammad you chose not to talk about him at all. By refusing it you have to admit that real life’s relativity – which is not always affect everything – doesn’t apply to Muhammad. Call price has too many input uncontrollable by anyone.
When I talked about “how my statement about your “logic” is wrong” I was talking about the cow and human plus Muhammad, not irrelevant example like call price. Put the right issue in the right place. You also didn’t read my sentence, “Let’s assume that there is certain condition which renders math impossible to become part of this PARTICULAR logic”. See? Your brain was selecting sentences as your feeling’s command.
3. A blind man parable was only my hyperbole to support an undeniable fact like the sun, but you keep pressing on this issue which was not the main purpose of my argument just to get the upper hand on me. You again have avoided Muhammad on this one. The sun is so clear and easy to prove “even” to a blind man either by making him to feel the sun or take him to a place where there is a sun, with the assumption that the blind man disbelieves the sun. Pay attention to the word “even”, if you still don’t understand it then I have nothing to say. I couldn’t take you to the level which you never understand so I won’t bother. We are talking about blind man’s capability to “know” the sun despite the fact that he can’t see, not where he lives.
4. The video cannot be proven either as true or false either by you or me. The funny thing is, you keep claiming it as false without evidence. If we deal with unconfirmed situation like this we should look at other viewpoint. Is the message true entirely, partially, or false if we look at reality? What is the reason for this unconfirmed situation? Is it a strong reason or not? Do I take it as false? No, I don’t. It’s simply unconfirmed.
Now, these 4 main points have important things which you have deliberately ignored.
Number 1: You have ignored the result of my logic.
Number 2: You didn’t equate the “complex” example of logic with Muhammad’s case.
Number 3: It’s basically the same as no. 2. You have thrown Muhammad out from the topic deliberately. Muhammad equals to sun rise is a logical fallacy or should I say “plain wrong” if I follow your description. But you were narrowing it to “blind man” alone and did whatever necessary to make this “blind man” wrong.
Number 4: You didn’t do what I’ve asked you to strengthen your claim about the video (point 1-6 in my 11 ignored points).
So in general, you’re never addressing the main issue. And please, truly read it next time. I feel like I’m in school right now, teaching and explaining to a “slow” student.
Devon,
I conclude that you are an egoistic self serving person who likes to satisfy your own pride rather than solving the problem. When you looked at something that looked like you could reply, you would concentrate on that something with any means necessary, ignoring other more important matters. In this case, you are so adamantly stay on “logic is fallacy”, “irrelevant relative ‘real world’ calculation”, “blind man”, and “100 % fake video proven by feeling”. Your personality has become clear when you’ve carefully avoided many of my sentences in August 18, 2010 at 9:50 am.
You also love to slander people. I see it in your, “You also confesed that all stories posted in this website is fake and nothing’s real, this is very acceptable”. I never said the video is fake let alone the entire site. How can one (let’s pretend) false video make all other videos as false too? One murderer from a village makes entire population in that village as murderers too? Are you ok? Why do you keep making ridiculous comments and at the same time mocking others? Then you made capital words showing your oversized desire to win. Ali Sina is well educated man judging from his article and debate, while you have proven nothing but your emotion and selective response.
You like too insult people indicating that you have no other argument using these, “breast swelling up issue”, “milking and making money”, “The big fat cow headed man”, and “Mooooooooooo” with a very long ‘o’. Hey, I’m not the expert but are you mentally ok? It’s a pity to see a mentally disturbed person accuses another for being one. Actually, if I retaliate with DEVil ON or DEViant cONvict I will be making illogical word like you and I don’t want to be like you. But, hey, to you logic is a fallacy, isn’t it?
Lastly, you are either too lazy to learn something new, too ashamed to admit anything or don’t have enough capability to understand a longer post. This sentence is the proof, “is there anything important in your log big fat post”. In a matter of fact, yes there is, because logic is not the only one I spoke about in that post. When you are speechless you say things like this. Anyone can do this. Kids can too.
These are logical conclusions based on your post as input.
Devon,
Your response is too emotional judging from the fact that you are facing my standard tone. Why is that? Something makes you uneasy? Is it my tone or my post?
Oh, speaking of your suggestion for suicide and your accusation to Ali Sina, where did you get them? Is it from your Arabian idol?
Sahih Bukhari Volume 11 Book 87 Number 111:
…the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, "O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah's
Apostle in truth" whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home. And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before.
Life is so cruel but death is too scary, so he just stuck at the middle being dragged by each side until…
It's silly to keep ignoring my 11 points all this time. One of your own post like raping Iranian has nothing to do with religion has already mentioned in my previous points. Read it first.
Mr. Moooooo———-
The word bubble boy. you have answer your own question, also agreed that most part of your long posting is just rubbish
“looks like answerable” and “not answerable”. It's true, garbase part is not answerabel.Thanks for the realisation.
as I said -1+-1= 0, not -2, negative does not generate any value in the real world. its not simple school math what you understand. You don't understand logic is not a process of empiracal evidence, logics is an art as I said before.
As sun is undeniable and universally thruth whether a bild can feel it or not is a situational approach, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is also an undeniable fact of nature whether you can feel it or not. The truth here is also undeniable. and you can not eleminate this from the universal history. you can not go back to 1400 years and say he never exist. So using logics refuting this is called a logical fallacy. The term logical fallacies is where plenty of logics supporting the issue but fact is otherway around.Whether the incident can occur or not is a logical analysis but incident occured so all logical analysis
continued– opposing the incident not occured is a fallacy.
"The video cannot be proven either as true or false either by you or me.—- Is the message true entirely, partially, or false if we look at reality? What is the reason for this unconfirmed situation?" Mr. MOOOOOOO—( because saying your name does not close the lips, using an infinite OOOOO), unconfirmed' meaing is not true, there is no in between.
"Ali Sina is well educated man judging from his article and debate" ali's well education neither change the factual world , histiorical fact, nor universal law. 'DEBATING SKILL IS AN ART not scientific analysis based on empirIcal evidence. Milk color is white, so this is strongly logical to say milk is white, but the fact is milk is colorless, any one ane claim milk is not white is illogical and could be considered as insane according to " your standard (avarage) theory". So there is nothing special in logics. Logic is the believe for standard ( average ) people like you. Becasue you always dream in the WORLD OF LOGICAL FANTACY which is far far away from practical world.
For this kind Corpse Fucker Paedophile believer named Devon:
dear black-stone-worshipper, I seek your guidance in the matters of the Most Loved and Aped Paedophile of All Times, Muhammad ibn Abdallah. As declared in the Horny Quran, The Pervert of Piss is the sole intercessor between Allah the Moon God and the masses of Believers on Judgement Day. Since the Horny Pervert declared everybody is born a black-stone-worshipper, and since the Paedophile was not the first human being, as there was no Aisha around to be thighed at the age of 6 by the time of Adam, how come the Pervert of Piss can intervene in favour of the Believers, isn't he supposed to get massages on his squeezing grave until Judgement Day? Will The Pervert bypass the queue line tobe the first to meet Allah the Moon God? Or he died as a Shahid?
If he died as a Shahid, so an Ape can turn into a Shahid by getting poisoned 2 years before his death by a slave?
Enlighten me in this particular matter, dear Muhammadan….
Devon, I urge you to read it carefully so that you can understand this issue,
You said, “This is now clear about your undersatnding of logics.”
Not my understanding, because that’s logic as it is. Logic is a method of reasoning, a way of thinking at particular way, not fact. Logic is objective because it’s based on existing factual information unlike faith. It’s like science, everyday get closer and closer to the truth. Check it yourself.
You said, “The turth or facts always can not be difine in logical terms but factual”
That’s why I said about the difference between logic and fact. These 2 are not the same. Fact is known not by faith but by observation, contact, experience, etc. You have to do a lot of things first to consider something as factual. Muhammad? Do you propose him as factual? Then explain that “many things” which made him a fact rather than faith. This is my point and you still don’t understand it. Sigh.
You said, “Not all logic will have to have facts, because some cases facts denies logics, but could eventually happen, but not all logics have touches the facts.”
Tell me what is that case? Something that impossible but actually happen, like splitting the moon? That’s a fact? Logic doesn’t always touch the fact but mostly does depending on how many input you have. Faith which based on fallacy never touches the fact. If this is what you mean. Faith itself is a fallacy according to logic.
You said, “logical fallacies are an effort of describing facts but without facts.”
No, Logical fallacy happens when you either don’t put enough information or you mistakenly put it in a wrong way. Logic doesn’t describe fact because something that called fact doesn’t need to be described, it describes a conclusion based on how many input you have had, the more info the more accurate it becomes. Let’s look at your own fallacies:
“This Fatima and Iranian video is a fake, so all stories posted in this website is fake and nothing’s real”
This is logical fallacy called hasty generalization if the fake thing is proven to be factual. The problem is, you can’t even prove that this is a fake. So, yours is not even considered as logic but a faith. If you inserted faith as input the result would never become a fact or even closer to it.
You believed Muhammad as true prophet and Islam as the religion of peace and full of goodness. Why? It’s because your imams say so, politicians say so, Quran says so (leaving other parts), etc. You believe them because they always tell the truth. This is also a fallacy called begging the question.
You said, “So not all arguments are acceptable although there is logics in itself. This is called logical fallacies.”
Logic uses factual and valid information as input, not vague argument. If the argument is not acceptable then the input itself is a fallacy and that shouldn’t be considered as input to create another output. Understand? You put so many “?” in your sentence indicating either your superiority feeling towards your opponent or disbelief of something you don’t know yet but you are too prideful to understand. Either way arrogance is one of your natures.
I’ve given you example like, “Muhammad was attracted to 6 years old girl”. This sentence is considered factual from muslim sources. This is not unacceptable argument. Earlier muslims wouldn’t write it if this wasn’t acceptable.
You said, “Moral issues, customs, religious believe, emotion also can not be described by logics. Logics mostly use in ethical matters. which is a debate between legal and ethical choice. Also logical debates are never concret, not an absolute matter, so logic is an art of reasoning but not necessarily factual.”
I notice your change of tone in this particular post. Why? Was that because you feel like winning? All of these things you have mentioned belong to particular values at particular places. This is called relativity. The problem is we are talking about Muhammad and Islam. These 2 things don’t belong to relativity according to Islamic belief. It is supposed to be absolute. How can an “absolute argument” be defended using relativity such as yours? Use the right tool at the right place.
“Mostly use” doesn’t mean it “always use”. Logic is not always about ethics and we’re talking about religion (an ethical teaching) so of course this can be applied to religion as well. In Islam:
1. it’s not ethical to eat with your left hand
2. it’s not ethical to eat and drink while standing
3. it’s not ethical to touch Quran or enter mosque in “unclean” condition
4. it’s not ethical for woman to reject her husband for sex
5. it’s not ethical to linger in some one’s house too long
6. it’s ethical to have slaves
7. it’s ethical to have 4 wives and right hand possessions
8. it’s ethical to beat your wives
9. it’s ethical to marry children
10. it’s ethical to kill apostate
11. it’s ethical to buy “wives” while at war
12. it’s ethical to call non muslim as unclean and fuel for hell
13. it’s ethical to view your wives as lands to be plowed, etc
Religion defines what is ethical and what’s not. Ethic is a moral principle and it considers something as appropriate, civilize, or repulsive based on certain situation. This contradicts the “absolute” claim by Islam. Debate in Islam follows 2 things, ethic (atrocities, bad deeds, etc) and legal (the truth about the verse, the personality of a god, contradictions, etc). So, you have to prove Islam has good ethics to human in general from past, present, future and the legality of Islam as true religion. I mostly use the second because others have already done the first.
Moral issues, customs, and emotions have the limit. If I kill you for insulting me, does it make me morally right? If I kill everyone on sight just for my bad mood, does it make me right? Humans may vary but there is a boundary, otherwise it’ll make you an alien.
Logic is not always right but it mostly right (depends on the input) while faith is unconfirmed argument. So, using logic we will have much higher possibility to reach the truth rather than faith. It’s like the difference between a well prepared person who calculate everything and a high risk taker who likes to bet and less thinking. Logic is like, “you are mostly right but you are not always right because of certain aspects”. Now, compare it with faith, “I don’t know you nor your decision is right or not, I know nothing of you”. Which one is more dependable?
Logical debate never concretes? Take example of pedophilia. Pedophilia is a concrete practice in Muslim world. You theorize too much but less practicing. All your arguments so far never touch the real thing. You love to deal with theories for safety sake.
Devon
You said, “The story of describing Fatima and Video link has logical fallacies, ( bad logics). Raping an Iranian woman by Iranian prison guard is nothing to do with religion. This is itself the people of Iran. As raping of beautiful christian woman 18 year old Luise Nicolas by 3 christian policemen is not the crime of christianity.”
Oh, explain the bad logic. You previously said logic was fallacy and not factual which rendered it as useless. How could you add “bad” in front of it? Now, your sentence about the rape has nothing to do with religion is unconfirmed argument and called faith. A case rape in Christianity is different because every religion teaches differently. Your view on religions is a fallacy (hasty generalization).
Now, analyze the cause of rape in this video. In Iranian woman, the rape begin after the jail, the jail happened because of the burqa, the burqa happened because of religion. Let’s move further on psychological matters, in Islam women is degraded as half of man with very limited rights, this had created an ethical view that “you can do bad things to them and that’s ok”. How about the law, the Islamic law demands 4 reliable male witnesses to a rape/adultery case and this made them to think, “Oh, I would never be found guilty on Islamic courts”. So, Islam as a religion directly and indirectly made them like this and the system supports them. It has to do with religion after all. This is just one side. How about, raping wives, slaves, and beating them. That’s absolutely has Islam as the supporter. This is factual.
You said, “A prostitues was fined by a police officer and then raped her in he police car is not cause of christinity., crime is a social phenomena, not the religious issue. but as an Iranian Ali Sina can not avoide his responsibility as an Iranian if such incident realy happened. He should be ashmed of fellow countryman.”
Crime is 100 % social phenomenon? Again it’s a fallacy. Your lack of info made you like this. Ali Sina is perfectly aware of his own country because he lived there unlike you and he doesn’t always pick Iran as example. Many Islamic countries have similar cases.
You said, “Also judging between truth and lie is a quality issue. So according to my above description now anyone can conclude that Ali Sina’s Psychobiography of Prophet is a book “FULL OF FACTLESS LOGICS, is a “DESCRIPTION OF LOGICAL FALLACIES.” Logical fallacies are not refutible but require sense of urgency reject it.”
No, lie can be presented in high quality depending on how you present it. Truth doesn’t always in high quality or in complexion. How many lies on this world that has successfully been done? Many. My country history is one of them. That’s the proof of high quality lie. Your “anyone can conclude” is really another fallacy. The book contains logics with facts and the facts are Muslim sources itself. If you were so boldly to mention it as logical fallacies then you should have no problem refuting it. Why hesitate?
Logical fallacy is refutable by pointing the problem if one or more sentences were mixed into conclusion. Please, stop making stupid argument like this. A sense of urgency to reject is an emotion based on faith. Simply saying “NO” would change nothing and it only shows your lack of argument.
Here, a fallacy:
Input 1: If you punch the wall you’ll hurt your hand
Input 2: Your hand is hurt now
Output: You must had punched the wall
Problem: A hand can get hurt on many ways through deceases, got trampled, bites, etc
Here, another one which relying on incomplete input and wrong reasoning:
Input: Devon is very good at dodging the issue
Output: Therefore Devon is a very good (person)
Problem: Mixing a two different terms (discussion and personality)
This is how you prove a fallacy, not just by saying “no”.
"The word bubble boy. you have answer your own question, also agreed that most part of your long posting is just rubbish
“looks like answerable” and “not answerable”. It’s true, garbase part is not answerabel.Thanks for the realisation."
By simply accusing something you couldn't answer garbage, proves your level of intelligent and emotion
"as I said -1+-1= 0, not -2, negative does not generate any value in the real world. its not simple school math what you understand. You don’t understand logic is not a process of empiracal evidence, logics is an art as I said before. "
And also as I said before that world has 2, simple and complex. With the complex one you have to address the issue directly, not theorizing with irrelevant matter. Logic is something you need to learn.
"As sun is undeniable and universally thruth whether a bild can feel it or not is a situational approach, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is also an undeniable fact of nature whether you can feel it or not. The truth here is also undeniable. and you can not eleminate this from the universal history. you can not go back to 1400 years and say he never exist. So using logics refuting this is called a logical fallacy. The term logical fallacies is where plenty of logics supporting the issue but fact is otherway around.Whether the incident can occur or not is a logical analysis but incident occured so all logical analysis"
Sigh, this is where your stupid brain emerges. We may not see Mr. M but we can see his works (Quran and Islam). If this is applied then even Paganism in Arabia was the truth. You clearly didn't understand the difference. First you took them as the same, now after I said the difference you then said it like this. Again, fact is faith and faith is fact, what a weird thinking. If I said that big foot existed and it had vanished 1400 years ago I would be right too. Very easy.
"( because saying your name does not close the lips, using an infinite OOOOO), unconfirmed’ meaing is not true, there is no in between."
Someone need a dictionary lesson here. So, god is not true because it's unconfirmed? Wow. Emotion, emotion.
"‘DEBATING SKILL IS AN ART not scientific analysis based on empirIcal evidence. Milk color is white, so this is strongly logical to say milk is white, but the fact is milk is colorless, any one ane claim milk is not white is illogical and could be considered as insane according to ” your standard (avarage) theory”. So there is nothing special in logics. Logic is the believe for standard ( average ) people like you. Becasue you always dream in the WORLD OF LOGICAL FANTACY which is far far away from practical world."
Sigh, again you picked irrelevant matter without even touching Muhammad. We see it as white because we are human, but that's not false too. Both are facts. Colorless is also human's view. What is colorless? Islam use color too. The world as you see it is also the same as you see color and religion. Faith is also like this.
Lastly Devon,
After all this time you still didn't answer my ignored points which if you answered it could prove your case.
Devon, we keep going in circle because you keep repeating refuted arguments and avoiding others, I’ll go back again and point to the issue at hand so that we can continue to the next level:
I keep wondering as why you never dare to enter the battle ground called “Muhammad” and “Islam”. So far you only gave theories that don’t have clear connection to the issue. Are you that scared to lose? My ignored list will help you greatly if you have the gut and honesty to answer it. But, alas a dishonest cowardly person like you would never do it. Those 5 points in video for example, you didn’t even dare to touch it. You are pathetic yet you still maintain your arrogance. A trait of general muslim when defending Islam.
You also keep mentioning mathematical formula like negative value without even consider the concept behind it. -1 is just a symbol in our human’s view. Basically it has the same concept with positive value. The pedophile example that you have ignored has the same too. The real world applies both simple and complex input. Call option has so many inputs hidden from us so that we can’t control/predict it, it’s like 1 + 1 + ? + ? = ? and “?” is not visible and it appears in your little brain as 1 + 1 = ?. You picked this without even comparing it to Muhammad’s case, so this example has failed. I will keep repeating this cowardly act of yours.
Your “moral issue” is really pathetic too. It shows your deluded head because you had already chosen your side. Moral in history changes because of learning. If it gets better we should replace the old one. Maybe in your tiny head you’ll say, “What??? What’s make it better??? Define ‘better’!!! This is a fallacy!!!” One moral value is better than the other if it creates less damage and victim than the others either for people, animal, etc in general or individual, physically or mentally. Islam was just belonged to Muhammad’s standard moral.
Your “milk” example shows your other cowardly act evading the issue. White appears in human’s eyes, we are all human, so white is true. We can “recognize” milk with our own way (5 senses) and science with its own way. If both face the test to pick milk between other drinks, both will be right as well. Calling white as illogical would be true as well in the context of human. So, our senses don’t contradict science, unlike your Quran. This example again and again doesn’t have any correlation with the issue. It’s just another evasive maneuver.
This is the most stupid argument I have ever read and I'm serious no harm intended,
“Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is also an undeniable fact of nature whether you can feel it or not. The truth here is also undeniable. and you can not eleminate this from the universal history. you can not go back to 1400 years and say he never exist.”
New formula from professor Devon:
1. Unproven equals to undeniable fact
2. Unproven = undeniable, proven = undeniable too
Example: My great grandfather can make miracles, it’s not proven but it’s an undeniable fact since it’s recorded in his journal.
Now, other prophets, religious figures, mythological characters, gods are also undeniable facts. Devon, your brain is really beyond me. Tell me, how do you deny my “big foot”? Gorilla exists is an undeniable fact, big foot is not. You considered “gorilla” and “big foot” as the same just because you are a fan of big foot. It’s childish.
When we are talking about Muhammad, we talk about 2 things:
1. His real presence (which is unconfirmed just like this video and have you considered other possibility about the forgery? All sources were made long after his death after all)
2. His claim for prophet hood (which has been proven wrong and contradicts present ethics and science)
Even if no. 1 is true, it doesn’t make no. 2 right. If no.1 is wrong, no. 2 will be automatically wrong. I’ve concentrated on number 2 at the very start. You pointed it at number 1 because your brain is confused. Read my previous sentence again in August 18, 2010 at 9:50 am. Stop making ridiculous mistakes with clear “upright face” like this, it’s so silly. Being stupid and arrogant at the same time is not a pretty sight.
So, let me imitate you,
“This Iranian woman’s story is also an undeniable fact of nature whether you can feel it or not. The truth here is also undeniable and you can not eliminate this from the universal history. You can not go back to the time when she had experienced that and say her story never exist.”
It’s so easy, like making instant foods.
As a former Muslim myself I know exactly what my sister Fatima is going through. I have tremendous respect for you for your courage and your strength gives me hope. When I left Islam I received death threats from some family members back in Pakistan and from some people in my community here even though I live in Florida. Please remain safe as your future is full of happiness and hate for none now that you are out of the dark closet of Islam. Please read what Ali Sina told me when I left Islam inspired by his book Understanding Mohammed. I dont follow any religion now and I am happy for it. I wish to remain free and love everybody.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/letters/how-…
Please read the link and tell me what you think. I would love all comments.
Hey Yousaf123,
What you are talking about!!! In asiatic society people are more traditional and want to stay togather. cultural heritage, customs, long traditions are their pathway. If somebody become apostate, its painful for their family members that sombody gone astray, socially the family become humiliated if middle class or come from low economic background. Like if one person marry more than one wife his childrens, they suffer mentally verbally, economically and became a silly bugger, if your parents alive they also being offended by their neighbours veryday for son's misdeed . So what's actually happening. you don't realise their pain because this is hidden but more severe.
When a new govt policy introduce in the society always a fraction of people strongly oppose this, because its not traditional.
If you don't follow religion its your choice, but let other people in your family happy, you don't need to declare you have gone astray, keep silent, and do the job.
A clever fox ( named Ali ) was entrapped and lost his tail (religion) , so gathered other foxs he told them that we actually don't need tail, because it's not useful, rather bring us plenty of trouble. therefore no one should have a tail from now. But did other fox listen to him!!!!
Devon – I expect everyone around me to accept who I am. If they dont then they are free to break their ties with me and go their way. Not everyone in my family was offended by my decision to quit Islam and some of my cousins remain good friends with me. My mother has also come to accept my beleifs and we both try and show each other respect. My brother has also quit Islam and we actually are more closer now than we were before. We can openly talk about our beleifs where as before we were scared to discuss religion for fear of retaliation in fact we did not even trust each other. But when we opened up about our feelings towards Islam it actually created a stronger than we both ever had before. Please dont tell me about Asiatic culture. I grew up over there in a Islamic nation and dont need your lecture on it. Beleive me getting rid of Islam was the most liberating experiance for me. Now I have friends who are Jewish, Hindu, Atheist and what ever they want to be. Try and get out of your little bubble Devon and you might experiance this liberation too. Man it feels good to not hate anybody.
Yousaf123,
I don't need to leave religion to make friends with jews, christian, Hindus , or Buddist, atheist. I already have good friends in all those religion. No one bother for my religion. I grew up with liberty and still have no restriction on it. I have got everything in life without changing religion. Some how you lost your tail and advising others not to have a tell.
Yousaf123, It's good to know that you had left Islam. If you stay then you can't befriend with others.
Q 3:28. Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you [To remember] Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
Q 4:144. O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?
Q 5:83. Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers. Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.
@Devon:
You seem much appreciative of Islam.In that case why dont you start by refuting the points that Ali Sina (PBUH) has mentioned instead of picking silly fights that most of dont give a damn? I would say that is your moral responsibility.Also,there is a bonus reward and a promise to shut this site down.The last one itself is one hell of an incentive to anyone who really knows the suppossed glory and truth of Islam. Please try.
Your comments:"A clever fox ( named Ali ) was entrapped and lost his tail (religion) , so gathered other foxs he told them that we actually don’t need tail, because it’s not useful, rather bring us plenty of trouble. therefore no one should have a tail from now. But did other fox listen to him!!!!"
By looking at the above comments by you,I think you are at the threshold of understanding Islam.
You have rightly described Islam as a tail (A tail is useful,but among the least useful of body parts,Even though you may lose a tail,you will not die from it and some might consider it a fashion statement.It all depends on your beliefs and how you can pull it off.)
'……..But did other fox listen to him"
Another valid point from you.You have more or less equated the followers of Islam with a fox.Considering that they have used cunning,power of groups and deception to decimate people,i think that is a pretty good assessment.
It is time muslims (foxes) became human beings.Losing the tail is a good start.And,Good luck trying to counter Ali Sina.
Hey Theinfidel,
There is nothing to debate Ali. He lacks basic understanding between things. read free internet copy of his Understanding Muhammad, how he misled information, misinterpret facts with evil intention. Refuting his claim require only one single sentence.
Apparently he has never seen a psyciatric patients.
Tail is the essence of beauty, most important part.
*** there is no reward offered in this site, Please read his statements and you will find the trick.
Hello Devon:
Do not insult true Muslims by calling yourself a Muslim. As a Muslim, you are not allowed to have Non Muslim friends. Either give up with your non Muslim friends or give up Islam. Here is a verse for you:
Qur’an 9:23 “Believers, take not for friends your fathers and your brothers if they love disbelief above belief. If you do, you do wrong.
Stop pretending to be a Muslim other wise you would face more painful torment than Non Muslims.
Anyway, how is it coming with your plan of meeting Jinn?
Theinfidel :
Devon or person like him are hypocrite, who do not follow sharia in day to day life and always ready to defend Islam. He is a converted Muslim from south Asia who feel very proud that His Great grand mothers were raped or put to sword or were unable to pay Jizya and as a result he is Muslim now.
These south Asian Muslim converts are the big insult to Islam as they misquote the Divine Islamic literature in order to justify their Non Islamic action.
@devon
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Hey Theinfidel,
There is nothing to debate Ali. He lacks basic understanding between things. read free internet copy of his Understanding Muhammad, how he misled information, misinterpret facts with evil intention. Refuting his claim require only one single sentence.
Apparently he has never seen a psyciatric patients.
Tail is the essence of beauty, most important part.
*** there is no reward offered in this site, Please read his statements and you will find the trick.
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Unfortunately ,that is a typical response.It shows that either you dont know how to refute or despite your knowledge,you are not willing to share.Since many of us havent taken a fancy for islam here, i think it is much better if you could elucidate.Otherwise you will be mistaken for a person who is all talk.
If you plan on clarifying,here are a few thoughts..
1.Kindly be explicit in your evaluation.(no comments like it is well known,we know,etc..you can backup with quotes and verses)
2.There are a lot of things that needs to be refuted in that book"understanding muhammed".If you can refute it with one single sentence ,please post that sentence here.
3.If your single sentence is "Ali Sina is a lunatic".kindly dont comment.It doesnt hold water for most of us here.Any other valid points are appreciated.
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4.Your comment :'Tail is the essence of beauty, most important part".
Answer:Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.Muslims hate Ali,Rest dont.All said ,i guess.
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5."there is no reward offered in this site, Please read his statements and you will find the trick."
Kindly explain here why you believe so.Tell Ali Sina to respond to that point and we too will try our best to get an answer for that.
thanks 4 reading