Javed Ahmad Ghamidi / Dr. Khalid Zaheer vs Ali Sina
Part XVII
Dear Mr Ali SinaI am sorry for the slight delay in my response. I have to carefully sift the unnecessarily sensitizing stuff from the real gist in each of your messages. In the last message, the following were the real points: i) My claim that there could be realities which are subjective-cum-objective was rubbish. ii) Those who already want to believe are gullible idiots and the bright achievers are the ones who doubt. iii) There was no difference between the case of the prophet of Islam and the other bogus religious personalities whose fakeness is already established. iv) If God had to destroy His enemies, He should have done it Himself. v) The prophecies of the Bible do not fit into the description of the prophet of Islam. |
I am delighted that you write and please do not worry about the delay. As for points i) and ii), I would not use that language. As for the rest, you got my message right.
i) Unfortunately, in the jungle of your rhetoric there was no response to my example of the new moon. I gave you a very simple example of a case to help you understand how realities could be subjective-cum-objective. I will eagerly wait for your comment on it. |
I believe I already gave my response. You said that the Moon is there but only those who have clear eyesight can see it. This is the same kind of reasoning that Muhammad used to make. Anytime people asked him for proof, he would say you are deaf, dumb and blind and can’t understand the clear proof I am giving you, or that Allah has sealed your hearts. Well, 1400 years later, we are asking the same questions and you are giving the same answers. I am afraid this is not a very convincing argument. Any person can accuse those who disagree with him of being deaf, dumb and blind. This is called ad hominem and it is not a logical argument. “If you do not agree with my illogical claims, you are blind,” is not a logical argument.
You are telling us that the proof of Islam is as clear as the Moon in the sky. We ask you to show that proof to us. You have not done it. The only proof you have given so far is the claim that Muhammad was mentioned in the Bible, which we will discuss bellow.
The other proof you gave was that Muhammad foretold that he would subdue his opponents and he did it. This, as I explained earlier, is not a valid proof either.
I do not recall you gave us any other proof as to why we should accept Muhammad as a prophet of God. So it is not fair that you call me blind for not believing in your unproven claim.
Let me give you an example of blindness. Let us say I claim that my friend Joe is a prophet of God; however I have no convincing proof to support that claim. You on the other hand make hundreds of very convincing arguments that Joe cannot be a prophet. For example, you say that Joe is a convicted felon, has been involved in armed robberies and has killed a few people. He has also kidnapped an airplane full of passengers and after killing the men, has raped the women at gunpoint. So, based on all these evidences and his asinine statements about science such as splitting the Sun, sperms being created from the shoulder bone, etc, you say Joe cannot be a prophet. But I am a believer and say that I have seen Joe performing miracles such as multiplying food, materializing an apple out of thin air, reading my mind, etc. You tell me that this Joe is a magician and that all his so called miracles are visual illusions and tricks. However, I am reluctant to listen to you and continue believing in him despite all the evidence against him. Then you can say I am blind and you would be right. However, it would be ludicrous if I call you blind for not believing in Joe since I have failed to give any proof. Replace Joe with Mo and you will see who is blind.
ii) If you are thrilled by the idea that you belong to the class of intelligent people and we to the unintelligent, let it be that way. I would just want to remind you that I have been an admirer of Bertrand Russel. I hope you would agree that he was slightly more intelligent than you are and yet his critical essays on religion didn’t affect my faith; in fact, they strengthened it. I grew in strength through those writings because I knew that I was reading someone who could be as ruthless as anyone in criticizing my beliefs while I am carefully considering each point he is raising and yet he hasn’t been able to remove me from my conviction. The same thing is happening in my exchanges with you. The desperate use of foul language that emerges from your messages, believe me, makes me even more confident. When one is confident one doesn’t need to be desperate in one’s expression. You then go on to claim that we are gullible idiots who have been brainwashed! |
First of all I did not use foul language. Would you please give one example? I have accused Muhammad of the crimes that he committed. If he killed, then he is a killer. If he raped, then he is a rapist. If he robbed then he is a robber. These are not insults but facts. If you disagree with me, all you have to do is prove me wrong and I will withdraw those charges.
You say that you read Bertrand Russell and your faith in Islam grew. Is that an objective and a logical argument? If your inability to see the superiority of the wisdom of Russell over Islam constituted proof of his lack of logic, then many people read the Qur’an and are not impressed by it. Is that enough to prove that the Qur’an is nonsense? Or perhaps you are the paragon of all wisdom and only you can decide who is right and who is not? I hope this is not what you say. So as you see your argument is flawed to begin with. You must tell us exactly which arguments of Bertrand Russell you reject any why you think they are illogical. I read the Qur’an and found that book is full of nonsense. Why should anyone care what I think? If I had not given examples of the errors of the Qur’an no one would have paid much attention to what I say. The same is true with you and your opinion of Bertrand Russell. Now, I am not a Russell follower. However, he was a brilliant man. I would not be swayed by your dismissal of him unless you tell me which parts of his views are wrong. Anyway, let us not get distracted. Russell is not the subject of our discussion. Let us focus on Muhammad and his claim.
iii) I was expecting that in response to my last message you would mention, to prove me wrong, names of many other religious people who, like the prophet of Islam, made clear claims in the early part of their missions that they had brought the message of God and that if they were rejected their enemies would be destroyed. You didn’t mention a single individual. Let me give you a clearer view of what the prophet’s miracle was. In surah al-Qamar (moon) which was revealed in the fourth year of the prophetic mission when the prophet was accompanied by a handful of followers, the Qur’an says thus: “The folk of Lot rejected warnings. Lo! We sent a storm of stones upon them (all) save the family of Lot, whom We rescued in the last watch of the night, as grace from Us. Thus We reward him who gives thanks. And he indeed had warned them of Our blow, but they did doubt the warnings. They even asked of him his guests for an ill purpose. Then We blinded their eyes (and said): Taste now My punishment after My warnings! And in truth the punishment decreed befell them early in the morning. Now taste My punishment after My warnings! And in truth We have made the Qur’an apt as reminder; but is there any that gets reminded? And warnings came in truth unto the house of Pharaoh, who denied Our revelations, every one. Therefore We grasped them with the grasp of the Mighty, the Powerful. Are your disbelievers (O Muhammad) better than those, or have you some immunity in the scriptures? Or do they say: We are a host victorious? The hosts will all be routed and will turn and flee. Nay, but the Hour (of doom) is their appointed trial, and the Hour will be more wretched and more bitter (than their earthly failure). (Qur’an; 54:33-46) Look at the connection the Qur’an is making between the fate of the earlier nations and the destiny of the rejecters of the prophet; look at the confidence and certainty with which the worldly doom of the enemies is being predicted. Are you still insisting that some other miracle be shown to you? Behind the smokescreen of your rhetorical criticism there is a clear acknowledgement that the miracle did take place but since it falls short of your expectations you don’t want to accept it. |
Is this your proof? Do you really expect people to believe in these fairytales of the Qur’an? These fables constitute proof for you because you are a believer. To the rest of us who think the Qur’an is the delirium of a mentally deranged man they mean nothing. Can you show the authenticity of these stories from any book of history? These are fairytales. Some of them are taken from the Bible and the rest either is made up by Muhammad or existed in the lore of the Arabs. Apart from the fact that the story of Lot narrated by Muhammad is different from the one mentioned in the Bible, in no other book do we find any reference to Lot, Abraham or Moses. Archeologists have found a lot about Pharaohs, yet they have found no evidence of the claims made in the Bible about what Jehovah did to the Egyptians and yet these events were of great portent. No mention of Moses exists in any archeological find. The Old Testament, particularly the books of Pentateuch, is fairytale. Do you expect us to believe in the Qur’an that plagiarizes this book of fables as evidence? So in your opinion just because Muhammad said Allah punished those people who rejected his prophets, we should believe? What if Muhammad lied? We have no evidence that any of the claims made in the Qur’an are true. We have plenty of evidence that Muhammad lied on many occasions. Why should we assume that these stories are true?
Furthermore, in these stories it is allegedly God who punishes those who disbelieve. In the case of Islam Allah is unable to harm his enemies and relies entirely on his henchmen followers, who like zombies kill his opponents with no thought of their own. There is a big difference between the killings perpetrated by Muhammad and what happened to the people of Sodom as described in the Bible. The Sodomites perished by a natural disaster, while the victims of Muhammad were killed by him, cowardly and treacherously. Anyone can be a terrorist. Muhammad’s acts of terror do not prove his claim.
If I tell people I have magical powers and can hurt those who do not believe in me, and then something were to happen to all those who disbelieve in me, then you will not be blamed to believe that maybe I do have magical powers. However if I send a bunch of hoodlums to beat and kill those who disbelieve in me, you will not conclude that I have magical powers but rather that I am a gangster, a mafia godfather. Muhammad claimed that if anyone disbelieves in him he will be humiliated. Yet nothing happened to those who disbelieved in him until he raided them. Does this constitute proof of his prophethood? Any gangster can do what Muhammad did. Do you see how baseless the proofs you are giving us are?
iv) God destroyed the nation of Lot Himself. Are you comfortable with that decision? Who can stop you from criticizing that decision as well? The important difference between your approach and mine is that while you are insisting that unless the reality appears the way you expect it to be, you won’t accept it, while I believe that the reality has to be seen and acknowledged in its real form. If I tell you that if you were to ascend to a high altitude without taking oxygen along, you could die and you respond by saying that you didn’t accept that such a thing could happen because you didn’t like the idea, what can be done of you? The Sun shines brightly, whether you like it or not. Muhammad, Allah’s mercy be on him, was able to overcome his enemies exactly the way God’s book predicted. The fact that you don’t like the way it happened doesn’t change the reality an inch. |
You did not answer my question. My question was if God wanted to kill people why would he not do it himself? Why does he ask Muslims to act as his assassins and henchmen? Why does he want to convert Muslims into murderers?
Whether I am comfortable believing in a terrorist god or not is beside the point. The point is that the story of the destruction of Sodom by God because of their impiety is not a fact but a fiction. We can’t quote the fables of the Bible to prove the Qur’an is true. This is circular reasoning. This is like I tell you I can walk on water and the proof is that I did it when no one was watching. This does not constitute proof to you. The evidence should be independent of me. As the claimant my own testimony does not count. Did any reliable person see also this miracle happening? If not, then you should not believe me, particularly if you have seen me lie on many occasions and if I have committed many sins. Since we have no evidence that a person known as Lot existed and there is no other book beside the Bible talking about him (The Qur’an only rehashes what the Bible says and even then Muhammad makes mistakes), we can’t accept this story as fact. In those days people did not have television and this much entertainment that we have today. When the Sun went down, they gathered around the fire and narrated stories. These are fireside stories. As rational intelligent people of the 21st century, we must not believe in them.
If you tell me in high altitudes there is little oxygen, I can verify the truth or falsehood of that claim personally. Is there any way to verify the claims made by Muhammad about God destroying people for disbelief? Absolutely not! So it would be foolish to believe in something that can’t be proven, and it sounds irrational. Why should we believe in the claims of Muhammad and not in equally irrational and unproven claims of other false prophets and pretenders?
Last year there was an earthquake in Pakistan that killed thousands of people. A year before that there was a tsunami that killed nearly one hundred thousand people, mostly Muslims. The year before that there was an earthquake in Bam, Iran that killed over 50,000 Muslims. Is there a message in these? Is God punishing Muslims for believing in a false prophet? I know that some Mullahs were going around telling the gullible Pakistanis that Allah is punishing them for not being good Muslims and not sending their children for Jihad. Now, how can we determine what message actually God is sending? Is he sending these calamities because Muslims follow a false prophet or is he killing them because they do not follow him enough? Do you see the absurdity of your logic? Any person can interpret these natural calamities according to his own penchant. It is foolish to think that these natural events have anything to do with us.
Let us say your backyard is flooded and a colony of ants living there is drowned. Now imagine one ant tells the other ants that this happened because you did not believe in me when I told you I am the messenger of the landlord. Wouldn’t that be ludicrous?
As far as this universe is concerned, you and I and our entire species are less significant than ants. In the great scheme of things we don’t even count. This Earth is living its own life doing what it is supposed to do as a living planet. Earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, tsunamis, rains, and droughts are all functions of the life of the Earth. Earthquakes must happen because tectonic plates are constantly in motion. They have been happening for billions of years before we humans existed and will continue to happen billions of years after we are gone. The same can be said about other functions of the Earth. Nature is not aware of our existence. It does its own things. If we have the bad luck to be in its way when it is most active, we can get crushed.
Now, we have ways to predict these acts of nature. We can get out of the way and stay safe. Also we can build better houses to withstand many of these natural disasters such as flooding, earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. We can overcome the effects of drought. Does this mean that we have tied the hands of God and he can no longer kill us in his traditional way, i.e. the divine terrorism? To think that these natural phenomena have anything to do with God is childish. It is depressing that intelligent people should think like that. And you are leaders of the community. If leaders think like this, what can we expect of the average Muslims? This is the cause of our backwardness. The enlightened people see the problem and try to solve it, come with ways to overcome the difficulties while Muslims say this was the test of God and continue in their ignorance. As long as Muslims hold to these childish beliefs, there is no hope for them. Why is it that the possibility of a Jew winning the Nobel Prize is 2,800 times greater than a Muslim winning that prize? It is because of this mentality. While the enlightened people of the world rely on their own powers and face every problem as a challenge, for Muslims, everything is inshallah. How can they progress with this primitive mentality?
When humanity was passing through the stage of its childhood, people felt helpless. They depended on the forces of the nature. They thought that drought, rain, fertility, health, disease, and natural phenomena were controlled by gods. They prayed to these gods for everything, sacrificed for them, and slaughtered animals, or even humans, to appease their gods. They had shamans and medicine-men with power to intercede on their behalf. These men wielded absolute power. Islam is also a primitive fear-based religion and Muhammad is a shaman. He claimed to be the intermediary between a vengeful and unforgiving deity that controlled everything. According to Muhammad Allah has created everything good everything and evil. Yes, even evil is created by Allah. Islam is extremely primitive. It is no different than Voodoo, Shamanism or any other animistic religion. While the animists believe in many gods, Muhammad preached one god. This is the only difference. The philosophy of Islam and animism is the same. Muhammad’s mind was very primitive. It is foolish to believe in him. I am giving proof after proof that he was a liar. Where is the proof that he was a prophet?
v) You claim the prophecy in the Book of Deuteronomy was for a Jew prophet. Let’s look at the prophecy: “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not give heed to my words which he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.” (18:18-19) |
First of all I do not believe in prophecies. I don’t believe that the authors of the Bible could foresee the future. They miserably failed to decipher the mysteries of the world around them and made countless statements that are scientific heresies. Such men could not certainly see the future. Therefore, those words are neither for Jesus nor for Muhammad. They refer to Joshua, whom Moses was preparing to succeed him. Note that the verse 18:15 emphasizes that this prophet will be someone from among the Jews (your own brethren). In the verse 18 it shifts from second person to third person and says “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers.” How can we explain this difference? This is because allegedly Moses is speaking of a future generation. This is the only way to explain the discrepancy between verse 15 and 18. “Your brothers” and “their brothers” is the same only if you think of the same people and their descendants. If I address you and tell you that the Pakistanis did such and such thing 50 years ago, I could use both third person plural or second person plural. I could say “you people” or say “your ancestors”. Both forms of speech are correct.
Moreover, in what ways does this verse refer to Muhammad? I could claim that it refers to me. I have as much evidence to back up my bogus claim as you have to back up yours.
There are five features identified in the prophecy: a) He would be a prophet like Moses. Only Muhammad, Allah’s mercy be on both, was a prophet like Moses: Both had natural births and deaths; both had families; both had large followings; both brought books which had laws from God; both migrated with their followers. b) He would be from amongst their (Jews’) brethren. The brothers of Children of Israel were the Children of Ishmael and Muhammad was from that branch of Abraham’s family tree. c) God would put His words in His mouth. There is no text that fits into this description except the Qur’an which is the very word of God, fully preserved. d) He shall speak to them all that God would command him. The Quran tells the prophet: “Messenger, convey to them whatever has been revealed to you from your Lord; for if you don’t do so, it will be as if you have not communicated the message (at all)”. (5:67) e) He shall speak those words in God’s name. Each chapter of the Qur’an begins with this verse: “In the name of God, the most Merciful, the One Whose mercy is lasting.” Khalid Zaheer(Words: 1197) |
a) In what ways was Muhammad like Moses? If having a natural birth and death is evidence of similarity between the two, can you show me one person who did not have natural birth and death? In that case all humans qualify.
b) From amongst your brethren, means from amongst YOU the Jews and not from among the Arabs. I already mentioned what the Bible says about Ishmael and that this man was referred to as a “donkey of a man” that would have his hand against every boy’s, and who would fight with everyone. I also quoted the Biblical verse where God, talking to Abraham, speaks of Isaac as the “only son” of him even though we know Abraham’s first son was Ishmael. This verse makes it clear that Ishmael had no place or rank in front of the Jewish god. He did not even count.
c) To make such a claim, you first must prove that the Qur’an is the word of God. You have not done that yet. Anyone can make such a claim. In fact all the Biblical prophets claimed that it is God that speaks through them. Even today, charlatanical cultists such as Warren Jeffs, John de Ruiter, Sai Baba and others have made this very claim. As long as you can’t prove that the Qur’an is the word of God, this claim is no more valid than those made by other charlatanical prophet pretenders.
d) In this point you make the same unsubstantiated claim as in the previous one and the answer is the same. So far you have not given a single proof that the Qur’an is the world of God. If the Qur’an is a book of satanic verses, these claims must be also false. So not too fast please. First you have to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God and then claim that among all other words of God, it best fits the requisites of the verse Deuteronomy 18:18.
e) And you think just because Muhammad initiated his suras with the mantra “in the name of Allah,” it is proof that he really spoke in the name of God? My erudite friends: Speaking in the name of God means speaking truthfully and promoting divine wisdom and love. None of the words and actions of Muhammad were godly. If my actions are unjust, I do not become a just person by saying “in the name of justice.” What kind of god is this Allah that is so petty, so ruthless, so unforgiving and so vengeful? Forget the letterhead – pay attention to the content of the suras. The Qur’an is a demonic book. It is written in the name of Satan. If Satan wanted to fool people through a fake religion, would he start his letters with “in the name of Satan?” Of course not! He would claim to be God, or an angel of God, and once he has the confidence of the gullible, he would convert them into murderous beasts, instilling evil in their minds and hatred in their hearts, inciting them to kill their fellow beings in the name of God. Furthermore, Sura 9, the last revealed sura, does not start with the basmala because the mercy has been lifted.
In my previous message I asked you about predestination. You did not answer that. Instead you chose to present your proofs that Muhammad was a prophet of God. That is fine. The reason I asked you that question was because I kept asking you for proof and you were not giving them. Now you finally are presenting your proofs. I have answered these claims. So please present more proofs if you have. I think we are now moving forward. It is important to get to the bottom of it and understand the things that attract Muslims to Islam. The point is not that you and I agree. The point is that you prove the prophethood of Muhammad to the world. Several readers have asked me to print this debate or make it available in PDF format for easy download. I would certainly be glad to do that. So please present everything you consider to be undeniable proof. I will add my two cents and let our readers decide.
I remain cordially yours and again reiterate my deepest respect for you and Mr. Ghamidi. Our disagreement is on ideological level. On the human level I have utmost respect for both of you.
Recent Comments