Is Islam Really America’s Second Largest Religion?
Submitted by Paul L. Williams on Sun, 07/05/2009 - 02:48
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“The dream of opportunity for all people has not come true for everyone in America, but its promise exists for all who come to our shores. And that includes nearly 7 million American Muslims in our country today who, by the way, enjoy incomes and educational levels that are higher than the American average.” – President Barack Hussein Obama, The University of Cairo, June, 2009
Is President Obama correct in his claim that America is now one of the world’s leading Islamic countries with a population of 7 million Muslims? Ibrahim Hooper, president of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), believes this figure is correct. He bases this conclusion on data extrapolated from his agency’s study of mosque attendance. This data, he says, supports the President’s contention that Islam has eclipsed Judaism to become America’s second largest religion. Mr. Hooper maintains he has been an eyewitness to the changing religious landscape. “When I came to the D.C. community ten years ago,” the CAIR director says, “the mosque that I attend in Sterling, Virginia held only one Friday prayer service for a handful of people.” Now, he adds, the mosque has built a large new facility, conducts multiple Friday services, and operates several satellite locations. However, Mr. Hooper adds, “no one really knows the exact figure.” The Problem with Projections Why this lack of pertinent demographic data? One reason, according to Dr. James Dretke, executive director of the Zwemer Institute, “is the fact that Muslims do not join mosques as Christians join churches, so it is impossible to count them from membership rolls.” Another reason resides with the U.S. Census Bureau. For the past 50 years the United States government (unlike some countries) has not included questions about religious affiliation in its census. In accordance with the new census forms, Americans are required, by law, to state their race; their means of getting to work, their income; their mortgage or rent payments; and their mental and physical condition. They are even compelled to inform Uncle Sam if their homes have a flush toilet and a refrigerator. But they are not asked their religious affiliation, since such an inquiry would violate their civil rights. And so, the number of Muslims who now reside in the country remains a matter of debate. Is Obama’s Figure Inflated? Daniel Pipes, director of the Middle East Forum, says that the claim that Muslims in the U.S. now number 7 million is grossly inflated. “Study after study,” Mr. Pipes contends, “has found that demographic figure about three times too high.” But the studies which Mr. Pipes uses to support his argument were conducted almost a decade ago. His first reference is to The American Religious Identification Survey which was carried out by the Graduate Center of the City University of New York in 2001. It polled more than 50,000 people and estimated the total American Muslim population to be 1.8 million. The second study, sponsored by the American Jewish Committee, placed the Muslim population at 1,886,000 in 2000. These early studies, which prop up the contentions of Mr. Pipes, were widely contested. The 2000 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches estimated there were 3,900,000 Muslims in the U.S. at that time, while a Zogby International Survey, released in August 2000, placed the number of American Muslims at 8 million. What is the right number? Recent Independent Surveys Several recent studies show that Muslims may number considerably more than 7 million in the U.S. Surveys conducted by The American Society of Psychiatrists and Cornell University estimate the number of U.S. Muslims somewhere between 8 to 10 million. These findings have been called into question by the Pew Research Center which holds that Islamic population of America is 2.35 million. But there is a serious problem with this estimate. Pew researchers admit that the study does not take into account immigrant and poor black Muslims. What’s more, the Pew telephone survey was conducted strictly with landlines and failed to take into account the fact that nearly 50% of Americans and age 18-35 and nearly 100% of the illegal immigrants use cell phones exclusively. Many people in the know, including municipal police officers, accept the higher estimates. Detective David Casey of the New York Police Department, for example, states that there are more than a million Muslims within the five boroughs of New York. The Muslim Presence If CAIR is correct in its projections based on mosque attendance, then America’s present Islamic population may well exceed 12 million. In 1990, America housed less than 600 mosques. By 2000, that number had climbed to 1,400. This figure failed to reflect the Muslim houses of worship that had sprouted up in low-rent storefronts, abandoned warehouses, Middle Eastern social clubs, private residences, college campuses, and second story business space. What’s the exact number of Muslims in America? No one knows. New Religious Phenomenon But no one can doubt the widespread presence of Islam throughout America – a phenomenon that has taken place in a relatively short span of time. In 1976, Leo Rosten’s published his sixth edition of Religions of America. It represented an exhaustive compilation of statistical information concerning every major and minor body of believers in the country. Entire chapters were devoted to such Protestant denominations as the Disciples of Christ, the 7th Day Adventists, the Unitarian Universalists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the various manifestations of Presbyterianism, Lutheranism, and Methodism. The study provided abundant data concerning the three forms of Judaism (Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform) and a lengthy discussion about the liturgical and doctrinal differences between Greek Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. It even contained facts and figures concerning the five percent of Americans who claimed to be Agnostic. But Rosten’s exhaustive work contained no mention of Islam, not even as a footnote. This was not an oversight. The Muslims in America were statistically insignificant, numbering less than 10,000. As little as a decade ago, Americans could walk through crowded airports without encountering a woman in a burka or a student in a shalwat kameez. Words such as jihad, imam, Sunni, and Shiite were not in common usage. Many major cities contained no Islamic bookstores or clothing shops featuring designer Muslim headdresses. And vendors selling halal hotdogs were non-existent on the street corners of midtown Manhattan. Now Muslims have managed to infiltrate all aspects of American life, including the prison system, the military, the highest recesses of academia and college administration, and every branch government. And, no less than their counterparts in Europe, American Muslims are making demands that are being met. Muslim special agents in the FBI insist upon separate potties from “infidel agents;” Muslim teachers in public schools, while denigrating Christianity, promote Islam by having their students recite prayers and verses from the Koran on prayer rugs; and Muslim women call for the expulsion of all men, including male lifeguards, from public pools and parks at certain hours of the day so that they could swim and stroll without fear of any violation to their sense of modesty. Other developments have been infinitely more disturbing, including the perpetuation of Islamic attacks on American soil – the killings by the Beltway snipers, the “honor killings” in Scottsdale and Louisville, the attack on the Jewish Federation Center in Seattle, the shooting rampage at a mall in Salt Lake City, and the murder this month of an American soldier at an Army recruiting station in Little Rock, Arkansas. The fact that such crimes were accompanied with cries of “Allahu Akhbar” gained scant mention in the press. Clinton Recognizes Islam’s Sudden Ascent In recognition that Islam has become the country’s second largest religion, Former President Bill Clinton recently told an Arab-American audience of 1,000 people last Saturday that the U.S. is no longer just a black-white country, nor a country that is dominated by Christians and a powerful Jewish minority, given the growing numbers of Muslims. Mr. Clinton said that by 2050 America will no longer have a majority of people with European heritage, adding that “this is a very positive thing.” ONE LAST NOTE There are currently 5.128 million Jews in America – a substantially lower amount than the President’s estimate of Muslims. FamilySecurityMatters.org Contributing Editor Paul L. Williams is the author of The Day of Islam: The Annihilation of America and the Western World, The Al Qaeda Connection, and other best-selling books. He is a frequent guest on such national news networks as ABC News, CBS News, Fox News, MSNBC, and NPR. Visit his website at http://thelastcrusade.org.
One of the major problems in
One of the major problems in counting the exact number of Muslims in America and the rest of the world is the very large number of invisible Muslims who are Jinns. Did you infidels know that these imaginary creatures that exist only in the delusional minds of Muhammad and his foolish followers are Muslims?
How do we know this - why it says so in the Quran of course, so who are we mere humans to argue with Allah. Read this and weep -
Quran sura 72 The Jinn:
"1. Say (O Muhammad) : It is revealed unto me that a company of the Jinn gave ear, and they said: Lo! It is a marvelous Quran,
2. Which guideth unto righteousness, so we believe in it and we ascribe to our Lord."
Let us also not forget the very large number of criminals who are also potential revert Muslims. They also find Islam a great blessing from Allah as they don't have to give up their present lifestyle activities such as murdering, raping, looting, child-molesting and vandalizing to enjoy Allah's promised carnal heaven. In fact the more of it they do, the greater the reward. What more could they ask for? Islam is tailor-made for them.
As the number of rapists,
As the number of rapists, child molesters, thieves, highjackers,looters etc who are caught and imprisoned, the moslem scum bag population is bound to increase in US of A.
I have a small advice to citizens of US .Dont wait till thwe population percentage of these criminals increases to 10% then they will want a separate law, land etc to practice their child molesting, raping, looting etc with out the fear of being imprisoned.The fear none but the pimp allah.
Islam is the world's most
Islam is the world's most lying religion. It claims to be the most converting religion wen it is the most sexing and birthing religion as old men marry babies and make them pregnant at first monthly. With as many wives and slave girls as they want Islam grows by a sexual jihad. Sex within Islam is the way of the Islamic world. Muhammad made everything the Arabs wanted holy, robbing, stealing, killing, lying, little girls and boys (ashnas) slave girls and boys, concubines. War was the most holy as they killed for allah, If allah was god why didnt he do it instead of making stupid men do it. PO MO made it believable that they would get 72 big breasted WHITE women as black women were cursed and 28 white boys as white as egg shells. Black Muslims dont even go to Paradise so why are the so dumb. Allah said he did it lol.
Hi friends I understand that
Hi friends
I understand that this forum is of the ex-Muslims. May I request the following friends who have posted into this thread as to what was their denomination when they choose to leave Islam? Please also mention as to what religion/denomination they joined when they left Islam.
1. Shafee al-Zindig
2. proudkafir
3. Raisin Head
This is only an optional question out of curiousity; no compulsion to answer.
All humans are but one family; love for all, hatred for none.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
To the Admadi Muslim PO MO
To the Admadi Muslim
PO MO hated you all as much as he hated the Jews. You didn't follow his wishes and allah's wishes. You are am apostate. Muslims of the shia and sunni kind hate you Admadi, the NOI, and all infidels. IrAn makes you wear a different color. Allah wrote the same Quran for you as he did for Shia and Sunni.Kill all non-muslims, then kill each other.
I was never a muslim, I read the crap and it said kill non-muslims and no way would I kill anyone. Next, it called my people, blacks, ugly nappy headed pug nosed slaves or abeeds. You must be kidding if you think I would read such evil and join it. Why did you. I love all people aS GOD CREATED ALL OF US AND aRABS ARE NO BETTER THAN anyone else. They stink like anyone else.
Islam is the world's
Islam is the world's stupidest religion because it does nothing but brainwash Muslims into believing they should not question the authenticity of Muhammed and the Quran. Another reason Islam the world's stupidest religion is because it has created cultural stagnation that leaves it's followers eternally stuck in the 7th century. The only reason some Muslims have flourished is because they are living in kafir countries.
Paarsurrey not everyone on
Paarsurrey not everyone on this website is an ex-muslim. This site was created by ex-muslims and the posters here are ex-muslims, Hindus, Jews, Christians, atheists, agnostics, and exc.
“The dream of opportunity for
“The dream of opportunity for all people has not come true for everyone in America, but its promise exists for all who come to our shores. And that includes nearly 7 million American Muslims in our country today who, by the way, enjoy incomes and educational levels that are higher than the American average.” – President Barack Hussein Obama, The University of Cairo, June, 2009"
There is nothing to prove this statement. To my knowledge immigration from Islamic to the U.S. has increased during the last 30+ years and the Muslim community is still growing, unless Obama was referring to the Arab-Americans who have become very successful, but 80% of them are Christians.
In 1990, America housed less than 600 mosques. By 2000, that number had climbed to 1,400. This figure failed to reflect the Muslim houses of worship that had sprouted up in low-rent storefronts, abandoned warehouses, Middle Eastern social clubs, private residences, college campuses, and second story business space.
There are two Mosque's in my county. One is an actual building and the other is in a rented store-front. While the first one is considered to be a Mosque, the second is not. By the way if Muslims in America were so successful as Obama states, they would be building more buildings to worship instead of using low-rent storefronts, abandoned warehouses, private residences, and second story business space.
#4. paarsurrey To satisfy
#4. paarsurrey
To satisfy your curiosity and to silence those who would falsely claim that we are all Jews pretending to be ex-Muslims.
I was born to a Hanafi Sunni family going back many generations. As I grew older and wiser after many years of study of all points of view, I realized that Islam was not for me.
I am content to remain a freethinker and see no need to exchange one mind-numbing addictive drug such as Islam for any other. It is like giving up cocaine and taking up heroin. Why would anybody be that foolish?
#4. paarsurrey Darling, the
#4. paarsurrey
Darling, the first time I saw a Jew in my life was when I wen abroad for studies. Since you wish to know more about the ex-Muslims on this site, let me give you my brief introduction.
I was born in a Sunni Ahle Hadith family of Kashmir. I was a practicing Muslim till about 3 years back. Being from an Ahle Hadith family, I was particularly unhappy with blasphemers including Ahmedis, Agha Khanis, Dawoodi Bohras, and I considered all of them fuel for hell fire.
Thanks to FFI and my own intelligence, I got out of this cult called Islam. It took me almost 3 years to get over my fear of hell fire as this was the last connecting link between Islam and me.
As for your fear of Jews, lol, this is something expected of a Muslim, even if they are Ahmedias. After all they drink from the same well of trash called the Quran as the Sunnis.
I can see the downfall of the
I can see the downfall of the great USA here. Americans, this is what you get for accepting anyone without filtering them. Years ago an american wouldn't even know what muslim or islam is. And know they are watching them everyday. Even MJ is a muslim (?). King of pop that you loved so much is a M.....
Dear Paarsurrey, I am(was)
Dear Paarsurrey,
I am(was) not a muslim, but recently I uttered the shahada "La Ilaha Illallah, Muhammad al rasoolallah"
Since then I have changed completely lake any other muslim. The ghost of our beloved prophet is haunting me: he is urging me to go after babies, sodomise them, screw girls below the age of 9, beat my wife black and blue then screw her, screw any kafir woman wherever and whenever I get opportunity, kill as many kafirs as possible, loot their property. Oh Allah, I have started to believe that these thing are HOLY!
Dear Ahmadi Muslim, it is only when I visit FFI that I am brought back to sobriety. Common Paarsurrey, let us join hands and go kill kafirs!!! Allahu Akbar!
#12 Man get real. Take a
#12 Man get real. Take a shower a cold one. Viagra then will do. Come to the red light district and have a great time. All different kinds and colors. Have a great time allah will be happy. Everytime u use them they revert to virgins like in Paradise. loooooooooool allahu akbar. You dont have to kill to get sex.
#11 I agree very much with
#11 I agree very much with you. Muslims are using our freedoms to make Islam look good. We cannot even have a Bible in Islamic world. There is no freedom in Islam not fairness nor love of mankind. Muslims dont even love each other. Blacks Muslims are waSTING THEIR TIME. aLLAH HAS NO virgins for Black men so there is no need to kill Jews. Jews help black Africans and Black Americans. Most have never seen a Jew and hate them. Black Mussies run to Israel not Gaza. Wonder why not. Because Arabs hate blacks and kill them as fast as ever. Egypt killed many asking for help in front of the UN building in Egypt. Take the Un to Mecca or Medina or China, please. UN needs to be made live in Islamic world as 57 states are there right now enjoying the goods of America. All of you who need a place to run help SAVE AMERICA from Islam. Tell the world the real deal. Tell your neighbor how evil Islam is and make sure you show them FFI. Tell them to read the book Religious Bullying by Raisin Head at Barnes and Nobles. Islam is a Bully, the religious bully of the world. When as a child a bully came along and he tried to get over bullying us for a while, then we got together and beat him butt aND told him to go away and if he came back, its over. He came back and it WAS over. Like the raven, NEVER MORE.
Ah, paarsurrey. Can you
Ah, paarsurrey. Can you explain what are the differences between your sect and another islamic sects? muhammad said there will be 73 sects and only 1 of them go to islamic heaven to lick the houris.
Hi friends I believe that
Hi friends
I believe that Muslims numbers will increase as Muslims have more children than others in the West. They pray five times a day and keep fasting in Ramadhan and perform Hajj; this keeps them well knit and religious.
With the advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908; the Promised Messiah and Imam Mahdi (the peaceful Reformer of the Revealed Religions of the World ) the scenario has been changed; the peaceful teachings of Islam/Quran/Muhammad have been highlighted by him; and under his banner all the religions would unite peacefully . He has come as a successor of Muhammad, so his convincing, rational and logical arguments would do this job as destined by God Allah YHWH.
The result would be opening of the hearts and minds of the West and others for Islam/Quran/Muhammad; but there should be no worry for anybody as it would be done peacefully; and this is what West wants.
So Islam would be number one religion this way in the West (including America), I believe.
All humans are but a family; love for all, hatred for none.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
paarsurrey wrote: "With the
paarsurrey wrote:
"With the advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908; the Promised Messiah and Imam Mahdi (the peaceful Reformer of the Revealed Religions of the World ) the scenario has been changed; the peaceful teachings of Islam/Quran/Muhammad have been highlighted by him; and under his banner all the religions would unite peacefully . He has come as a successor of Muhammad, so his convincing, rational and logical arguments would do this job as destined by God Allah YHWH."
Hmmm, can you show us that this Ghulam fellow was really a successor of muhamMad? Had muhamMad predicted it? Show us the verse that talk about messiah.
"So Islam would be number one religion this way in the West (including America), I believe."
Wait..wait.. What i'm asking is a sect. Did you mean that your sect will be no. 1 in this earth? Because other sects consider this ghulam fellow as a fraud. Do you know how many ahmadi follower up until now? in USA maybe?
In the Name of Allah, The
In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious The Most Merciful.
La illaha illallah, Muhammadur rasulullah.
I am a proud Muslim.In fact very proud that this kind of a site exists.With all the trash and lies about Islam spread by you people, its astonishing to find that Islam grows by the day.The truth will always illuminate and falsehood will set aside.When people know the truth, falsehood escapes.This is what is happening in the USA.We will continue to show people the truth till the end of time.
Wake up Americans.Distinguish falsehood from the Truth.
ISLAM stands for the TRUTH.
May Allah be Exalted.
#18 I am a proud Infidel. I
#18 I am a proud Infidel. I dont want Islam as it says kill and Jews and christians are apes and pigs and Jesus was a Jew and Moses was a Hebrew. My God created all languages so why just Arabic. In Iran the Adhami are made to wear a different color like Jews were made wear yellow, Hiter copied from Muslims anto Jews.
Islam staND FOR DEATH NOT TRUTH. THE ONLY TRUTH iN iSLAM IS sATAN THE dEVIL SURA 3:54. aLLAH SAID SO. wAKE UP mUSLIMS iSLAM IS FALSEHOOD. kILL jEWS, cHRISTIANS, hINDUS AND EVERYONE. sEX BABIES AND GET 72 BIG BREASTED WHITE VIRGINS. yOU GOT TO BE KIDDING. Such mythology.
Islam stand for death,
Jack: In the Name of Allah,
Jack:
In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious The Most Merciful.
La illaha illallah, Muhammadur rasulullah.
I am a proud Muslim.In fact very proud that this kind of a site exists.With all the trash and lies about Islam spread by you people, its astonishing to find that Islam grows by the day.The truth will always illuminate and falsehood will set aside.When people know the truth, falsehood escapes.This is what is happening in the USA.We will continue to show people the truth till the end of time.
Wake up Americans.Distinguish falsehood from the Truth.
ISLAM stands for the TRUTH.
May Allah be Exalted.
Islam is incompatible with democracy and American values. If you want sharia law then go live in a country where it is practiced and leave us nonbelievers alone.
The last paragraph in 20 is
The last paragraph in 20 is my statement.
17. Moooo Says: July 9th,
17. Moooo Says:
July 9th, 2009 at 9:04 am
Hmmm, can you show us that this Ghulam (Ahmad 1835-1908, the Promised Messiah, the Imam Mahdi) fellow was really a successor of Muhammad? Show us the verses that talk about messiah.
“So Islam would be number one religion this way in the West (including America), I believe.”
Paarsurrey says:
In my opinion, almost all denominations of Muslims believe that Imam Mahdi or the Promised Messiah would be a follower successor of Muhammad.
Muhammad had himself prophesized about advent of the Promised Messiah (Issa, Ibne Maryam, Jesus Christ, Imam Mahdi) from amongst his true followers.
I quote here from Muhammad:
1. [~~Yushaku man aasha minkum ianyulka eisabna maryama imamun mahduyyun , hakamun iadualun yakserus saleba wa yaktulul khinzera]
One who would be alive (at that time), he would meet Issa (JesusYeshua) s/o Maryam (MaryMerium) in the position of ImamMahdi (DivineGuided), a truthful judge (among faiths/religions); he would break the Cross (with arguments) and kill the swine. (Masnad Ahmad 156/2)
2. ~~Abu Hurairah narrated from the Prophet Muhammad SAW that he said"
:
I swear by Him in whose hands rests my life or death that you would definitely witness advent of the Ibne Maryam (Son of Mary); a truthful judge (among faiths/religions), he would break the Cross (with arguments) and kill the swine and suspend the war (for religious conversion).
(Bukhari Kitabul Anbeya, Bab Nazul-e Essa Ibne Maryam)
]
All human beings are but a family; love for all, hatred for none
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
[...] Muhammad prophesized
[...] Muhammad prophesized about advent of the Promised Messiah (Issa, Ibne Maryam, Jesus Christ, Imam Mahdi) from amongst his true followers By paarsurrey http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/07/05/is-islam-really-america%e2%80%99s...... [...]
• 4. paarsurrey
• 4. paarsurrey Says:
July 5th, 2009 at 9:44 pm
Hi friends
I understand that this forum is of the ex-Muslims. May I request the following friends who have posted into this thread as to what was their denomination when they choose to leave Islam? Please also mention as to what religion/denomination they joined when they left Islam.
1. Shafee al-Zindig
2. proudkafir
3. Raisin Head
This is only an optional question out of curiousity; no compulsion to answer.
• 5. Raisin Head Says:
July 5th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
To the Admadi Muslim
I was never a muslim, I read the crap and it said kill non-muslims and no way would I kill anyone. Next, it called my people, blacks, ugly nappy headed pug nosed slaves or abeeds. You must be kidding if you think I would read such evil and join it. Why did you. I love all people aS GOD CREATED ALL OF US AND aRABS ARE NO BETTER THAN anyone else. They stink like anyone else.
• 9. Shafee al-Zindig Says:
July 6th, 2009 at 9:42 am
To satisfy your curiosity and to silence those who would falsely claim that we are all Jews pretending to be ex-Muslims.
I was born to a Hanafi Sunni family going back many generations. As I grew older and wiser after many years of study of all points of view, I realized that Islam was not for me.
I am content to remain a freethinker and see no need to exchange one mind-numbing addictive drug such as Islam for any other. It is like giving up cocaine and taking up heroin. Why would anybody be that foolish?
• 10. ibrahim Says:
July 6th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
I was born in a Sunni Ahle Hadith family of Kashmir. I was a practicing Muslim till about 3 years back. Being from an Ahle Hadith family, I was particularly unhappy with blasphemers including Ahmedis, Agha Khanis, Dawoodi Bohras, and I considered all of them fuel for hell fire.
Thanks to FFI and my own intelligence, I got out of this cult called Islam. It took me almost 3 years to get over my fear of hell fire as this was the last connecting link between Islam and me.
paarsurrey says:
I thank brothers and friends in humanity here in these forums; who write here and who were Muslim previously and changed their religion. Following have answered my query and I thank them in this connection:
Raisin Head, Shafee al-Zindig ,Ibrahim,
Our friend proudkafir has opted not to enlighten us about his previous faith or his present religion. I thank him also.
I would like everybody who writes here to enlighten us about his previous and present faith/religion; it helps to understand in a number of ways their opinions, perspectives and visions, if they talk rationally and logically with good intellectual arguments.
All human beings are but a family; love for all, hatred for none.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
Hello Paarsurrey, I was
Hello Paarsurrey, I was raised as a Protestant Christian, tried to live accordingly until about my 21st birthday. But I could not dispel my doubts, which I had had all my life. So I stopped going to church. I kept on searching, reading, and now I consider myself a Darwinist. I consider Science the best way to help us find ever more of the Truth.
I am glad that there are Ahmadi Muslims who only want to change the world peacefully, which appeals to a democrat-to-the-core-person like me.
Paarsurrey says: Hi friend
Paarsurrey says:
Hi friend Demsci
Thanks for your appreciation.
I congratulate you on being bold enough to leave Protestantism. They, the Protestants left the simple and rational teachings of Jesus; and opted to follow the cunning Paul and sinful scirbes of the Bible. If we see the real character, teachings, acts and Revelations Jesus had from God Allah YHWH, we have to admit that he was one of the perfect men that walked on Earth.
After when he survived death on Cross and he migrated to India; most unfortunately, his enemies took over; they changed and tailored his teachings and also his acts according to their own low motives. Jesus was not responsible for that changes made in his name;in fact he had warned his follwers of this phenomenon.
I would say that the Man Jesus was a truthful Messenger Prophet of God Allah YHWH; and hence his teachings consisting on his pure revelations were originally truthful. I would suggest you to rediscover the perfect man Jesus; and follow him, if you can.Jesus was not god and he never claimed to be one. The present Christianity has got nothing to do with Jesus and persents only a mythical Jesus carved out of thin air by Paul and the Church unauthorized.
If you still remain disgusted with the Bible; then you enjoy your life being a Darwinist; but don’t oppose Jesus; a natural fruit of humanity and truthfulness. This is only a brotherly advice; no compulsion.
Please concentrate on your new religion - your present abode of faith. You may present merits of Darwinism if you so like and tell us as to how you cherish it. This may benefit us, who hardly know anything about this religion; if it is a religion.
I understand that there have been many scientific changes in the theory Darwin presented.What is your opinion about it?
You may present your interesting write-up as a separate topic in this forum for benefit of us all; if the owners/moderators allow it.
All human beings are but a family; love for all, hatred for none.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
paarsurrey: I congratulate
paarsurrey:
I congratulate you on being bold enough to leave Protestantism. They, the Protestants left the simple and rational teachings of Jesus; and opted to follow the cunning Paul and sinful scirbes of the Bible. If we see the real character, teachings, acts and Revelations Jesus had from God Allah YHWH, we have to admit that he was one of the perfect men that walked on Earth.
I say:
Most Protestants follow the teachings of Jesus.
Paarsurrey:
After when he survived death on Cross and he migrated to India; most unfortunately, his enemies took over; they changed and tailored his teachings and also his acts according to their own low motives. Jesus was not responsible for that changes made in his name;in fact he had warned his follwers of this phenomenon.
I say:
Jesus died on the cross. The loss of blood from his wounds and from being tortured would have caused tremendous stress on his heart, being nailed to the cross and possibly having his spine exposed from being whipped with rope and glass would have caused tremendous agony to his body. It is well known that being hung from such a position on the cross would have caused a lot of stress to the chest and lungs and many victims as a result died from asphyxiation. Also while Jesus was walking to the site where he was to be crucified, he fell on the ground while carrying the cross on his back which may have caused a puncture in his heart and as a result blood flow might have been blocked resulting in a sack of blood forming until it burst.
Paul was martyred for his testimony about Christ and who would die for something they know is false. Not only was Paul martyred for his testimony, he was originally a pharisee who persecuted the followers of Jesus until one day Jesus appeared to him. Also Paul was not the only apostle who was martyred for testifying about Christ, most of the other apostles were martyred also for their testimony, which also included Christ's ascension up into heaven.
Hi, Marie, I know you are a
Hi, Marie,
I know you are a Christian and very knowledgeable, I respect that very much.
But at this point in my life I believe the theories of Earl Doherty, G.A. Wells, Kenneth Humphreys, who argue the mythicist theory. With the elements of:
- Myths abounded in the Classical world, also in Persia. Jews could have had their own version.
- There is no proof that Jesus even existed, as portrayed in the New Testament. Maybe some itinerant preacher existed, but then much was fabricated around him. The alleged proof, like that of Josephus, is either refuted, or in reasonable doubt among scholars.
- The apostle Paul is examined a lot. And the striking feature about his testimony is that he did talk a lot about some sort of heavenly Jesus, but never about a person that was alive in Pauls lifetime, not long before Paul started his mission. The few times it does look that way, there are plausible alternative explanations. So yes, it does look like Paul in large part was the originator of the Christian religion. And your claim that people do not die for lies is countered, we think they do die for illusions.
Paarsurrey, thanks for your friendly reaction. So I do not believe your version of Jesus' life either, I believe the myth-theory. If there was a role-model for Jesus, it just was not the perfect, high moral man that was described in the Bible and Quran. Almost all of that came from myth, many historians convincingly argue.
Yes, I left Christianity, every human has the right to choose his own religion, or way of life. But I can tell you that the majority of Europeans left Christianity after World War II. I was no exception.
Frankly it is my hope that:
- Islam gets in doubt too in large parts of the Islamic world, then gets massively abandoned just like Christianity was.
- In the Islamic world it gets understood that just being born into the religion of your parents and your people does not oblige you to follow that religion or that your loved ones, compatriots should treat you any differently when you find another religion, way of life.
- All religions get to only rely on fair, peaceful ways to convince people of its truth and usefullness. With no unfair advantages as in current Islamic dictatorial states.
- All children, including girls, get decent education in the future, including education of the tenets of all religions or ways of life, not just the one their parents prefer.
Seeking the truth through the scientific method is the best way to do it, I feel. That means that when religions like Christianity and Islam are explaining history, reality, the world as we know it, thus creation or evolution, they enter the terrain where Science also explains these. And in these cases we should prefer Science's authority and conclusions. Because it provides the best investigation-methodes, objectiveness, evidence, logic. And the best argument; it gets controlled, over and over, allows criticism, has on principle the intention to let the best theories win, NOT the alleged "divinely inspired" theories.
And Darwinists think religions are not MORE useful than what a lot of humans together can think of and organise. In fact many of us believe that there was a huge progress in history which gets ever faster too, and which was due to us humans, without any Divine Help!
Hi friend Marie (at # 26
Hi friend Marie (at # 26 above)
I think you have not informed us as to what was your religoion/faith before you converted to the present one. Please name your present one also.
I love Jesus and Mary
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
Hi friend Ibrahim (# 10
Hi friend Ibrahim (# 10 above), a brother in humanity
It is alright with me that you left Sunni Ahle Hadith denomination; who have a lot of untruthful and irrational creeds that a sane person won’t like or rather abhorr it; so your leaving Ahle Hadith denomination is quite understandable to me.
For instance the Ahle Hadith, I think, believe that one cannot leave Islam if one is not convinced at heart and soul; and is bound to live a hypocritical life in Islam. It is totally un-Islamic and Quran/Islam/Muhammad never supported it.
If one is unsatisfied and unconvinced with Islam/Quran/Muhammad; one should leave it. One is not to be harmed just for not being satisfied with it or being unconvinced with it. Similarly, one could join Islam again if one’s doubts about Islam/Quran/Muhammad become clear.
I however would say that a person who has left Islam should now concentrate in one’s new religion one has converted to. It is not a rational approach for him, in my opinion, to become an enemy of Islam/Quran/Muhammad and start hating it. Those who do it, in fact remain attached to Islam though negatively; perhaps they deep at their heart are not perfectly satisfied and in peace with their new faith or religion.
They left Islam; but Islam does not leave them; one reason for such behavior could be that they in fact were dissatisfied with the denomination of Islam they belonged to; their grievance was with the specific denomination they were in; and not against Islam/Quran/Muhammad in reality.
This is my sincere understanding; others could believe differently, no compulsion.
May GodAllahYHWH bless you!
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
paarsurrey: Hi friend Marie
paarsurrey:
Hi friend Marie (at # 26 above)
I think you have not informed us as to what was your religoion/faith before you converted to the present one. Please name your present one also.
I say:
I'm a Christian. I come from a family of nominal Christians ( we only went to Church and that was it ). I'm probably a more devout person then the rest of my family.
paarsurrey:
I love Jesus and Mary
I say:
The Quran states you cannot worship anyone other then Allah and his prophet Muhammed.
Now I love Jesus for he is my savior who gave his life on the cross in order to save mine. As for Mary I hold her in high regard for she is Theotokos ( God-bearer ) but not as high as the Catholics do. I do keep a picture of her in her honor.
Hi friend Marie (refer # 30
Hi friend Marie (refer # 30 above))
It is good to know that you are a deist; a believer in God.
I only worship God Allah YHWH. I don't believe that Jesus was god; he was one of the perfect men who walked on earth. Mary was also a woman; mother of Jesus who gave birth to Jesus very naturally. Jesus did not die on Cross; he survived with the grace of God Allah YHWH who always helps His Messengers Prophets , like He saved Jonah as Jesus himself mentioned.
After getting saved his life Jesus migrated to India; there he lived upto the age of 120/125 years and died there a natural and peaceful death.
I don't understand as to why you should oppose Islam/Quran/Muhamm which mentions of Jesus and Mary with love and affection; there is not a single word of hatred about Jesus and Mary.
I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
paarsurrey: I don’t
paarsurrey:
I don’t understand as to why you should oppose Islam/Quran/Muhamm which mentions of Jesus and Mary with love and affection; there is not a single word of hatred about Jesus and Mary.
I say:
I oppose it because Muslims have been killing nonbelievers in the name of Allah for over a thousand years.
It does not matter what Muhammed said about Jesus and Mary because Islam and Christianity have irreconciliable beliefs and Muhammed made inflammatory accusations against the Christians and non of them can be proven. Muhammed also promoted violence against the Christians ( The people of the book ).
I don't believe in the Jesus living in India myth.
Hi friend marie I will like
Hi friend marie
I will like you to first concentrate about Christians. Muhammad never killed any Christians during his life; Quran the primary and foremost source of Islam does not record of any such event, I think. If you have one; please quote it.
If somebody kills a person in the name of God Allah YHWH; the responsibility of killing does not shift on to God Allah YHWH; it rests on the same person. I think you will agree on this point with me.
I love Jesus and Mary.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
paarsurrey here's what
paarsurrey here's what Muhammed said about Jews and Christians in the Quran:
Suras 2:65, 2:88, 2:140, 4:160, 5:13, 5:41, 5:51, 5:59-60, 5:64, 5:73, 5:116, 9:29-30, 9:33, 10:68, 16:118, 17:4, 20:48, 37:151, and 98:6.
Hi friend marie I take your
Hi friend marie
I take your first reverence 2:65 and give it here with the context:
[2:63] اِنَّ الَّذِيْنَ اٰمَنُوْا وَالَّذِيْنَ هَادُوْا وَالنَّصٰرٰى وَالصّٰبِـِٕـيْنَ مَنْ اٰمَنَ بِاللّٰهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْاٰخِرِ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحًـا فَلَهُمْ اَجْرُهُمْ عِنْدَ رَبِّهِمْۚ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُوْنَ
[2:63] Surely, the Believers, and the Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians — whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds — shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.
[2:63] یقیناً وہ لوگ جو ایمان لائے اور وہ جو یہودی ہیں اور نصاریٰ اور دیگر الٰہی کتب کے ماننے والے جو بھی اللہ پر اور آخرت کے دن پر ایمان لائے، اور نیک اعمال بجا لائے ان سب کے لئے اُن کا اجر اُن کے ربّ کے پاس ہے اور ان پر کوئی خوف نہیں اور نہ وہ غم کریں گے۔
[2:64] وَاِذْ اَخَذْنَا مِيْثَاقَكُمْ وَرَفَعْنَا فَوْقَكُمُ الطُّوْرَؕ خُذُوْا مَآ اٰتَيْنٰكُمْ بِقُوَّةٍ وَّ اذْكُرُوْا مَا فِيْهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُوْنَ
[2:64] And remember the time when We took a covenant from you and raised high above you the Mount, saying: ‘Hold fast that which We have given you and bear in mind what is therein, that you may be saved.’
[2:64] اور جب ہم نے (تم سے) تمہارا پختہ عہد لیا اور طُور کو تم پر بلند کیا ۔ اسے مضبوطی سے پکڑ لو جو ہم نے تمہیں دیا ہے اور اسے یاد رکھو جو اس میں ہے تاکہ تم (ہلاکت سے) بچ سکو۔
[2:65] ثُمَّ تَوَلَّيْتُمْ مِّنْۢ بَعْدِ ذٰلِكَۚ فَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللّٰهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهٗ لَـكُنْتُمْ مِّنَ الْخٰسِرِيْنَ
[2:65] Then you turned back thereafter; and had it not been for Allah’s grace towards you and His mercy, you would surely have been of the losers.
[2:65] پھر اس کے بعد بھی تم پھر گئے۔ پس اگر اللہ کا (خاص) فضل اور اس کی رحمت تم پر نہ ہوتے تو تم ضرور نقصان اٹھانے والوں میں سے ہو جاتے۔
[2:66] وَلَقَدْ عَلِمْتُمُ الَّذِيْنَ اعْتَدَوْا مِنْكُمْ فِىْ السَّبْتِ فَقُلْنَا لَهُمْ كُوْنُوْا قِرَدَةً خَاسِـِٔـيْنَ ۚ
[2:66] And surely, you have known the end of those amongst you, who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. So We said to them: ‘Be ye apes, despised.’
[2:66] اور یقیناً تم ان لوگوں کو جان چکے ہو جنہوں نے تم میں سے سَبت کے بارہ میں تجاوز کیا تو ہم نے ان سے کہا کہ ذلیل بندر بن جاؤ۔
[2:67] فَجَعَلْنٰهَا نَكٰلاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهَا وَمَا خَلْفَهَا وَمَوْعِظَةً لِّلْمُتَّقِيْنَ
[2:67] Thus We made it an example to those of its time and to those who came after it, and a lesson to those who fear God.
[2:67] پس ہم نے اس (سَبت کی بے حرمتی) کو اس کے پیش منظر کی وجہ سے اور اس کے پس منظر کی وجہ سے سرزنش کا باعث بنا دیا اور متقیوں کے لئے ایک عظیم نصیحت (بنایا)۔
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=2&verse=62
I don’t see any verse there where it is mentioned that Muhammad killed any follower of Jesus. Please help me to locate such a verse; anybody please.
I love Jesus and Mary
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
paarsurrey Muhammed killed
paarsurrey Muhammed killed Jews and he did not kill any Christians but he did advocate violence towards them.
Hi friend marie I thank you
Hi friend marie
I thank you for acknowledging that Muhammad did not kill any Christians.
Now we come to the Jews who killed innocent Jesus and who blamed Mary for giving birth to an illegitimate child; and also the Jews attempted to kill a number of the Messengers Prophets of God Allah YHWH. Jesus cursed Jews and it is mentioned in the NT. You also know that Moses, their leader, also killed 3000 Jews in a day.
Kindly quote a verse from Quran with the usual context of Quran which is five prceding verses and five following verses of Quran, where it is stated that Muhammad killed any Jews.
I love Jesus and Mary
Thanks
paarsurrey: Now we come to
paarsurrey:
Now we come to the Jews who killed innocent Jesus and who blamed Mary for giving birth to an illegitimate child; and also the Jews attempted to kill a number of the Messengers Prophets of God Allah YHWH. Jesus cursed Jews and it is mentioned in the NT. You also know that Moses, their leader, also killed 3000 Jews in a day.
I say:
Nice try paarsurrey. I am not falling for your tactics.
The Jews did not kill Jesus, the pharisees did the deed and Jesus died from a roman execution. Jesus cursed the Jews? paarsurrey Jesus was a Jew.
Moses killed 3000 Jews in one day? Show me the verse.
paarsurrey:
Kindly quote a verse from Quran with the usual context of Quran which is five prceding verses and five following verses of Quran, where it is stated that Muhammad killed any Jews.
I say:
Here are the verses where Muhammed killed and expelled Jewish tribes from their lands:
Surah's 3:10-12, 33:26, and 48:29.
Hi friend Mari I give the
Hi friend Mari
I give the reference where Moses killed 3000 Jews:
Moses then gathered the sons of Levi and set them to slaying a large number of men (3000).(It is in the Exodus chapter 32)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_calf
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
Marie July 20, 2009 • 3:03
Marie
July 20, 2009 • 3:03 am
Here are the verses where Muhammed killed and expelled Jewish tribes from their lands:
Surah’s 3:10-12, 33:26, and 48:29.
Paarsurrey says:
Hi friend Marie
I give here for you first reference verses 3:6-15 for the context from the Quran:
[3:6] Surely, nothing in the earth or in the heaven is hidden from Allah.
[3:7] He it is Who fashions you in the wombs as He wills; there is no God but He, the Mighty, the Wise.
[3:8] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning — they are the basis of the Book — and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking wrong interpretation of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.’ — And none heed except those gifted with understanding.
[3:9] ‘Our Lord, let not our hearts become perverse after Thou hast guided us; and bestow on us mercy from Thyself; surely, Thou alone art the Bestower.
[3:10] ‘Our Lord, Thou wilt certainly assemble mankind together on the Day about which there is no doubt; surely, Allah breaks not His promise.’
[3:11] Those who disbelieve — their possessions and their children shall not avail them at all against Allah; and it is they that are the fuel of the Fire.
[3:12] Their case is like the case of the people of Pharaoh and those before them; they rejected Our Signs; so Allah punished them for their sins, and Allah is severe in punishing.
[3:13] Say to those who disbelieve, ‘You shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell; and an evil place of rest it is.’
[3:14] Certainly there was for you a Sign in the two armies that encountered each other, one army fighting in the cause of Allah and the other disbelieving, whom they saw to be twice as many as themselves, actually with their eyes. Thus Allah strengthens with His aid whomsoever He pleases. In that surely is a lesson for those who have eyes.
[3:15] Beautified for men is the love of desired things — women and children, and stored-up heaps of gold and silver, and pastured horses and cattle and crops. That is the provision of the present life; but it is Allah with Whom is an excellent home.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=3&verse=10
I don’t see in the verses Muhammad killing any peaceful Jews; correct me if I am wrong and establish your viewpoint from the above verses that Muhammad did kill them.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
paarsurrey: I give the
paarsurrey:
I give the reference where Moses killed 3000 Jews:
Moses then gathered the sons of Levi and set them to slaying a large number of men (3000).(It is in the Exodus chapter 32)
I say:
paarsurrey Moses originally did not want to have them killed, infact he begged God to have mercy on them. But when he returned to the camp and saw they were out of control he had no other choice but to stop their vile behavior.
3:6-15 talks about Muhammed's army battling the Jews because they disbelieved in his prophetship.
Hi friend Marie “paarsurrey
Hi friend Marie
“paarsurrey Moses originally did not want to have them killed, infact he begged God to have mercy on them. But when he returned to the camp and saw they were out of control he had no other choice but to stop their vile behavior.”
I thank you for admitting that there might come a situation in which a Messenger Prophet of God Allah YHWH might decide to take an action, while he does not like it, he has to take action as commanded by God Allah YHWH in the greater interest of his followers and humanity; to the point that Moses did kill 3000 Jews from the Jewish tribe Levi.
If such an action was taken by Moses; then he definitely set an example for future also. The Christians and ex-Christians (if you are one) should understand it. Nevermind
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
every one will come to know
every one will come to know what is right and what is wrong
even the flow of current cant
even the flow of current cant be seen but only when touched it u can feel...in the same manner on the day of judgement u will will come to know what is right and what is wrong