Apostasy in Islam: LondonSpirit vs. Ibn Kammuna – Part II

This is another great article from Ibn Kammuna.

Almighty Allah and his 'GREAT PROPHET OF ISLAM MUHAMMAD' love such truthful writings.... No?

Hi Ibn Kammuna,

I dont believe you have rested your case for I'm certain londonspirit will come back with some mental gymnastics. This is what all muslims apologists do by presenting an entirely different story to what is sanctioned in the authentic islamic documents and what is happening in real situations. They say they do not what worship muhammad, while the reality is the Sunna itself translates in worshiping muhammad. They say they provide equality to people of all faiths in their lands, while the reality is people of other faiths are seriously living in hardships in muslim world as sanctioned per islamic texts.

Now londonspirit comes with his interpretation of dealing with apostates in islam when the reality is quite different in that the apostates have to be killed as per islamic texts and they are being killed at this very moment, everywhere in the muslim world.

Good job Ibn Kammuna and take care.

Londonspirit give it up man! Mo said kill apostates. In fact you are an apostate. You are asking questions about Islam and sura 5:101,2said dont do that. Londonspirit, ALLAH IS THE DEVIL SURA 3:54. Muhammad is the DEVIL's Messiah.

Muhammad said kill poet women in bed asleep with kids. Kill old women by quartering. Kill the black woman in the idol of Manat and then stole the jewelry around her neck. Killed the scribe that wrote part of the Quran and left Islam after he discovered the lies Mo told.

Islam is death. Islam is a dying cult after exposure. That is why you live in London and not Saudi Arabia. You would not be able to use the computer.

Londonspirit are you a spirit for Allah.

AHH, the truth is a beautiful thing. Don't you think so kabirlaw? Very well explained Ibn Kammuna.

Normally 70-75 % of the muslims havent read the quran and just remain as normal muslims, they sometimes goes to masjid, hear mullahs and continue in there life.
Now approx 10-15 % muslims are well versed in quran , hadith etc and they are actually true muslims and become terrorists and are extremely dangerous. Osama type persons are telling the truth in blunt way, they are honest in telling what Islam is while the muslims in the garb of so called 'moderate' come to media and tell that its another religion of peace and some persons have highjacked it are more dangerous as they are lying. Now after so many terrorist attacks , muslims playing the victim card everywhere, non-integration with other religion people, high rate of crimes among muslims, ghettoes of muslims in any big cities etc have prompted many to analyse the whole truth of islam and go to the roots and then they realise that its nothing but a evil ideology. The mullahs using Islam enjoy there life without doing anything, they live like parasites. Get good zakat, respect of muslims, politicians approach and power. These mullahs have created a evil structure.
Now many ordinary muslims have also started reading websites like these that why so much noise of Islam and muslims and then after reading them they have three reactions:
1) Oh my God, a shock feeling that they have been duped for so long and they leave islam, stops going to masjid, stop zakat and try to integrate with society. Many dont tell to everyone and try to remain muslim by name. But a big question remains , what about there future generation. As they can become terrorists. Now some solution have to be reached for them, best is to change to other religion like buddhism or hinduism or christianity. Christianity is more organised and they have handled many such cases and help these guys.

2) A reformist view like Irshad manji, they think that islam is reformable and interpret it in many ways to look human like giving excuse that 7th century situation is different from 21st etc and try to cherry pick some good human verses, neglect worst verses and change the meaning of Jihad to 'spritual struggle'. These persons try to create a personal islam, they want to enjoy freedom, liberty provided by non-muslims and try to create a space for Islam. They dont know Islam is rotten from the roots and Islam is a fixed thing, either you follow 100 % or leave it. Thats why they get threats from muslim fundamentalists. They are in deep illusion about islam, they are nowhere.

3) The third reaction, they will twist every reasoning. They show extreme stubborness. They will claim its jew-americam-kuffar conspiracy. They will claim why then islam is growing fast, bark that islam is true religion, threaten others, provide some videos that europeans are converting, or some high profile has converted so true religion, show the videos or articles created by treacherous mullahs showing that ex-muslims are fake. They have closed there senses and will listen no critical thought and will bark , repeat same thing, point out other problems and tell see you also have problem.

What I am trying to show here is not new in Islam. In fact, all four Islamic schools of Jurisprudence prescribe the death penalty for apostates.

If all the major islamic schools of Jurisprudence say the same thing including their websites have the same view as Mr. Ibn. Kammuna, Mr. LS should explain why is that so?

al-islam's view on koranic verses on apostasy

al-islam's full explaination on apostasy

Pdf Download of al-islam's veiw on apostasy

In the last debate upon asking this question, his response was he can't answer each and every person, hope he has time this time around.

--

If he seriously believes in his view, he should atleast hold a debate with the islamist on this topic in the city of London if not Saudi Arabia.

Will LondonSpirit renounce Islam now that He has learned the depth of its depravity?

I wonder if Mr.LondonSpirit is familiar with and knows the meaning of this lovely passage from the Quran:

9:23: Believers, do not befriend your fathers or your brothers if they choose unbelief in preference to faith. Wrongdoers are those that befriend them.

Are you able to understand this verse Mr.LondonSpirit? Is this not the sick workings of a highly insain cult leader named Muhammad?

Who in their right mind would choose to raise their own kids in Islam knowing these realities?

Look. Let me create some real debate here. Lets say, just for argument's sake, that Islam does indeed teach that the apostate should be killed. full stop.

Does that mean that this religion is untrue? Or Muhammad is not a true Prophet?

Errrrm, unfortunately, NO, it doesn't.

You see, the real question is, Is Islam for real? Not whether it permits the killing of apostates or not. Ali Sina has mastered the art of beating around the bush and getting Muslims worked up on issues, although serious, but are neither here nor there when it comes to assessing the truth of the divinity of Islam.

"PICKTHAL: What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O MUhammad) canst not find a road."

"SHAKIR: What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him."

Why would Allah who chose Muhammed to be his messenger in order to lead the people back to the right path cast them back to disbelief? This makes absolutely no sense.

"Now, I would like the reader to see what is meant by “hypocrite” in the above verse. The question is not one of definition here, but rather what is meant by that in that verse. If you were not a Muslim, why would Allah cast you back to disbelief? If you are not a Muslim to start with, then casting you back to disbelief (as the above verse states) won’t make sense. So, indeed those people became Muslims at one time, then left Islam after the Muslims loss of the Uhud Battle."

Either they joined Islam because of the booty or they realized Muhammed was a fake.

Kabirlaw:

Let see how do we check the divinity of Islam and how would be check if one is following the true religion.

According to Koran, Non -believers should be punished as they are the enemy of Allah, but what about the natural catastrophes in recent years in Islamic region like tsunami- 2004 ( the Centre was a place called ‘Ache’ in Indonesia well known for Sunni extremists/terrorist), Earth quake in Kashmir in 2005 in the holy month of Ramdan ( When poor Muslims were fasting for 30 days ). Most of the people died in these incidents were Muslims.

When Allah himself don’t mind killing his own true followers in the holy month of Ramdan, than who else would care for them.

I can see some divinity here.

In regards to the video how can those verses be historical in context when the Quran came directly from Allah?

Kabirlaw wrote:

Look. Let me create some real debate here. Lets say, just for argument’s sake, that Islam does indeed teach that the apostate should be killed. full stop.

Does that mean that this religion is untrue? Or Muhammad is not a true Prophet?

Errrrm, unfortunately, NO, it doesn’t.

No wait yes it does, because it shows God's lack of love for his creation. Look God wants to have a relationship with his creation because and making laws against apostasy will hinder this because it will cause fear in the people and therefore they will worship him out of fear, not out of genuine desire to be with God.

#8 kabirlaw

Look on comment #5 and You are category no 3,

Firstable do you believe hadiths that tell story about all atrocities and sex addiction of mad ham mo, don’t tell me Mohamed try to look after widows, its all about pussy, why would your allah want to pick some immoral and no sense of wisdom person to guide mankind.

what is quran? Nothing but war’s handbook and You need tafseer to understand it when it says it clear and easy to understand

Does that mean that this religion is untrue? Or Muhammad is not a true Prophet?

Errrrm, unfortunately, YES, it does

You see, the real question is, Is Islam for real? It’s a joke,
And its being promoted by a clown like you

Look. Yes let us create some real debate here Kabirlaw...lol

Or course Islam is not real. Of course Islam is a lie. This is all very obvious. Of course Islam in totality is a terribly unjust ideology. Do you not see this Kabirlaw? A person must be either deeply indoctrinated by the cult of Muhammads Islam or he is a bold-faced dark-hearted liar to claim otherwise.

Are you a crack head Kabirlaw? Do you smoke the pipe?! I ask these questions because something seems to be wrong with you man. Your brain doesn't seem to work right. You are not a liar are you Kabirlaw? You need not take this personally Kabirlaw, i am just curious.

Have you even read Ali Sinas book Kabirlaw? If so why don't you take him up on his challenge, win all that money and have FFI shut down to boot? Wouldn't that be good Kabirlaw? What's your excuse and what bull***t will you come up with next? Let's hear it dingle nuts. The floor is yours.

You really think i am going to renounce islam when i have easily set up a rebuttal to mr. IBNKAMMUNA. So easy to answer him. I aint like you guys. I just dont read and belive. I research. I am in my final touches of presenting my rebuttal. All yous should see it by tomorow. If you guys had any curiosity you can also pick out the flaws of ibnkammunas post.

15 Londonspirit:

I hope you would say that in order to leave Islam apostate has to Pay twice the Poll taxes or something like that. What a great and merciful religion is Islam.
Allah is as merciful as Mafia.

LS

“I just dont read and belive. I research.” ??!@#%#

I don’t understand, what about the news about apostasy, people get killed, beheaded, and fatwa for apostasy. What do you say about those reality sir?

Did your research cover those aspect s?

As I said, you don’t need to know what made up the trunk or the branch of the tree, all you need to know is to see and taste their fruits.

That’s why I don’t really like quoting from quran, it can be interpreted different way, 1001 nights is not enough to get the conclusion of it, as it just gonna go around and around

LS, that IS exactly what you do with the Quran; reading and believing, no more. All your critical mind is engaged with here is with Ali Sina, FFI, refuting them to the smallest detail. If there would be some new Muhammed-like prophet, you would be so against him/ her and telling the world about it. But just because Muhammad lived so long ago, you believe his preposterous claims, into the smallest of details. You know, all scientists can admit small mistakes in their writing or that of other. They certainly can admit to unclarity, vagueness, ambiguity, even if approving of the meaning of their writing. But even this seems impossible for you regarding the Quran.

Kabirlaw, thank you for creating debate so well. When today a new Prophet, Messiah comes, this person will have to prove any Divine Revelation she/ he claims. And people like you would rightfully reject it, unless given ample proof. And so it is with Muhammad and Islam, the burden of proof is on them, they came along in world-history, making these preposterous, so improbable claims. We are just like you being critical of our writers, only we are critical of Muhammad.

Islam has a lot of relevance in terms of power, yes. But we are not yet totally convinced of its Divine origine or truth, sorry. So Islam has no relevance for us in that respect, it is at best one of the myriad sources of guidance, usable ideas for mankind.

Second, about usefulness. Nowadays we have so much guidance, wisdom, from so many sources, from so many sciences. We have tried out so many ways of organizing society, so many ways to enhance personal happiness. Islam is for usefulness about these goals, so irrelevant to us in the 21st century.

And now we realise that it is high-ranking and many ordinary Muslims who block progress by prohibiting Muslims to broaden their mind, taking other views, other religions, with these anti-apostasy-laws.

#20 What difference if Moses did this or that. Muslims always try to use what others did to justify their evils. If Moses was wrong so are you. Jesus didnt even keep the Sabbath or the Mosaic Law as he fulfilled it. FULFILLED MEANS ITS OVER. YOU ALREADY DID IT. BEsides no one ever kept the Law anyway. God only told the Israelites not to eat pork and camel No one else. Jesus freed us from the Law so now I can eat chitterlings and pork chops and pig feet, tails, pork sausage, hog maws, etc. You eat what you wantand I eat what I want. Afterall, God made it all. Noah was told to eat anything he wanted Gen. 9:3. Noah was not under the Mosaic Law and neither am I nor you. Mo stole that from the Jews in Yathrib (Medina) before he stole and kiled them. It became advantageous for Mo as he was trying to convert Jews into his gang of thusg and religious robbers. Jews felt good, the pagans felt good and the false christians felt good. He was a slick dude.

What kind of a god would create people just to die or be slaves to white people.
What kind of a god would make people to go around and kill others who really think they are serving Godhonestly!
Only a lysing God called allah Satan the Devil sura 3:54.

@23 #23 It is relevant because you try to keep it. When god told Moses to kill, it was not to make them Jews. It was to keep them from killing them. Today no one is attacking Muslims until you decide to attack us. Then we kick your butts. Then we do unto muslims as muslims do unto us. fair is fair. dont you think people get tired of your crap.

Marie has a right to choose ohers over Muhammad. didnt you choose Muhammad over other prophets? She has a right to tell you she doesnt like islam nor Muhammad as your dont like her prophets. She has that right!

Muslims dont believe others have the right to serve their gods but only serve allah or die! Well we dont feel that way. Although I am not a member of any religion, I will defend anyone who decides to serve a god as long as the god doesnt tell them to kill me or cut my girls vaginas out or tell ME what to eat.

MARIE is exercising her free speech which Islam is trying to stop. forget it Kabirlaw!

Are there any North Korean Muslims? If not why not?
Kim Jong il says submit or die? He serves allah also. His father was their prophet and before that it was Karl Marx!

DEMSCI the sole reason why we wont accept no other man to be prophet, because it clearly says in the quran that prophet muhammed is the seal of the prophets. Thats it there can be nothing after him. However we do belive in 2 people that would come in the near future to bring peace according to the prophecy whereby there would be a time where there would be so much destruction on the earth, due to wars and greta natural disasters.

As you can see this is happening already and as the years go by this is getting even worse. There is currently over 20 wars taking place. The propehcy talkis about the coming back of the messiah jesus and the MAHDI. so we do belive someone else will come to save mankind but we dont belive a new prophet will be established to help mankind or any new revelations will be brought.

In regards to the rel;evance of the quran and islam. That is totally up to you whether to belive or not. I myself would never become an atheist because it is absolutely impossible for the universe to move in perfect order. Actually i just look at the ants and i see the miracle of the ants is enough to make me believe that there is a bigger power.

#27 Yessssssssssss
Oh America has flown to the moon, again, yesterday and the earth is a circle as the Jews said Isa. 40:22.

earth
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w O e 4 points
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KABIRLAW dont listen to raisinhead, she can speak the most amount of nonsense here. She deludes herself by thinking that the bible says magnetic headings when it clearly says corners. Raisinhead corners are not magnetic headings. Corners are the edges where to intersections meet. Magnetic headings are located at the centre between two corners.

The worst thing is people are not correcting her here but agreeing with her. Or the ones that cant answer say this forum is about islam not chrisitianity.

Look what she said about North Korea president. Lets see if someone corrects her stupidness

kabirlaw, you seem to be having a lot of problems with the FFI forum and our ways, so I think I would do you a courtesy and diable you from commenting on this Forum again.

IBN KAMMUNA I think you done a very good job in presenting your findings but it is still possible to rebut your claims. I will go step by step to rebut everything you said.

Firstly you quoted the following translations of verse 4:88 004.088

YUSUFALI: Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
PICKTHAL: What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O MUhammad) canst not find a road.
SHAKIR: What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.

You have underlined a specific section of the verse to justify your claims that If you are not a Muslim to start with, then casting you back to disbelief (as the above verse states) won’t make sense. So, indeed those people became Muslims at one time, then left Islam after the Muslims loss of the Uhud Battle. Please note that that Muhammad came up with the above verse after the battle of Uhud,

ANSWER: I have got a few point I would like to make to you. Firstly I should have mentioned this before

1. The verse 4:88-4:91 is a story foretold in the quran whereby allah has given permission to attack the hypocrite who attack the muslims. It is not a law to be followed. Because if it was it would have been written like this

[4:92] No believer shall kill another believer, unless it is an accident. If one kills a believer by accident, he shall atone by freeing a believing slave, and paying a compensation to the victim's family, unless they forfeit such a compensation as a charity. If the victim belonged to people who are at war with you, though he was a believer, you shall atone by freeing a believing slave. If he belonged to people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, you shall pay the compensation in addition to freeing a believing slave. If you cannot find a slave to free, you shall atone by fasting two consecutive months, in order to be redeemed by GOD. GOD is Knower, Most Wise.

This is a law. Not what you quote. There are also many other verses from the quran that is written clearly and concisely like the above verse, which indicates it is a law and must be followed. IBNKAMMUNA try and show verses from the quran like the above verse which says to kill apostates clearly and you wont be able to find it because there is not a single verse like that in the quran. Apostates like any other disbeliever well get their punishment after death according to the quran.

2. why do you have to use mid sections of a verse to justify your claims. I have said before that translations can never be fully correct due to the sensitiveness of the Arabic language. Although in the modern day the translation to English is getting better and better, but this may further take some time to translate into the appropriate text. The reason it takes so long is that Unlike Christianity, which has a main body where every decision in regards to Christianity is made, there is no such body in Islam to verify all these translations. If you are going to use certain aspects of a verse to justify your claim especially using a little section in verse 4:88, which is when Allah cast them back (to disbelief), I will use the following translations

Yusuf AliWhy should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.

Arberry How is it with you, that you are two parties touching the hypocrites, and God has overthrown them for what they earned? What, do you desire to guide him whom God has led astray? Whom God leads astray, thou wilt not find for him a way.

KhalifaWhy should you divide yourselves into two groups regarding hypocrites (among you)? GOD is the one who condemned them because of their own behavior. Do you want to guide those who are sent astray by GOD? Whomever GOD sends astray, you can never find a way to guide them.

MalikWhat is the matter with you, why are you divided into two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has cast them off on account of their misdeeds? Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has confounded? Whomever Allah has confounded you cannot find a way for them to be guided.[88]

There are many more translation like this. For your reference

http://www.islam-muslims.org/quran/4/88/default.htm

Try and use these translations to justify that god were speaking about apostasy or that he was setting a law for human kind to kill apostates.

You see IBNKAMMUNA don’t take little sections from a verse to justify your claims. I can take any story from the bible and than present the explicit words as a law. When something is a law it is presented as a law not as a story. It is pathetic for you to try an justify your claims of apostasy from a story and than use limited translations to then present it.

But anyway lets assume what you say is correct. You have chosen to use that section of the verse to justify your claims. Further in your post you say the following:

The word used in the Qur’an is “Munafiqeen” which probably translates best as Hypocrites. However, please note that the meaning of Hypocrites here does not conform to the definition given by LondonSpirit as to what the word “Hypocrite” means

Ok so you don’t believe me in the definition I gave in regards to hypocrites. Ok let me give you the verses of the quran used to describe hypocrites

[2:8] Then there are those who say, "We believe in GOD and the Last Day," while they are not believers.

And these are their attributes of hypocrites as indicated from the verses of the quran:

[9:54] What prevented the acceptance of their spending is that they disbelieved in GOD and His messenger, and when they observed the Contact Prayers (Salat)*, they observed them lazily, and when they gave to charity, they did so grudgingly.

[4:38] They give money to charity only to show off, while disbelieving in GOD and the Last Day. If one's companion is the devil, that is the worst companion.

The main verse to consider in regards to hypocrites is the following verse from the quran
[9:64] The hypocrites worry that a sura may be revealed exposing what is inside their hearts. Say, "Go ahead and mock. GOD will expose exactly what you are afraid of."
[9:65] If you ask them, they would say, "We were only mocking and kidding." Say, "Do you realize that you are mocking GOD, and His revelations, and His messenger?"
[9:66] Do not apologize. You have disbelieved after having believed. If we pardon some of you, we will punish others among you, as a consequence of their wickedness.
[9:67] The hypocrite men and the hypocrite women belong with each other - they advocate evil and prohibit righteousness, and they are stingy. They forgot GOD, so He forgot them. The hypocrites are truly wicked.
Now the verse 4:89 is talking about the people who took the shahada so they showed to the human eye that they believe but in actual fact they didn’t. This is the people Allah is talking about in these verses. Now to answer the question you posed
If you were not a Muslim, why would Allah cast you back to disbelief?

Its because these people showed to everyone that they were muslims. Do you understand IBNKAMMUNA these people were pretenders to the human eye.

But for arguments sake lets just say these people were apostasies. The following verse tells us the story on how to deal with these hypocrites/ apostasies.

[4:90] Exempted are those who join people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, and those who come to you wishing not to fight you, nor fight their relatives. Had GOD willed, He could have permitted them to fight against you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.
[4:91] You will find others who wish to make peace with you, and also with their people. However, as soon as war erupts, they fight against you. Unless these people leave you alone, offer you peace, and stop fighting you, you may fight them when you encounter them. Against these, we give you a clear authorization.
These two verses explain the treatment of the apostasies/hypocrites. As you can see it says that those who stay away from you and do not fight they should be left alone in peace (4:90 Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them. )
But those who do treason against the muslims and come and fight you than only do you fight them (4:91 Unless these people leave you alone, offer you peace, and stop fighting you, you may fight them when you encounter them. Against these, we give you a clear authorization.)
So from this you can see that these verses are only giving permission to attack those hypocrites or apostasies who attack you. It is not setting out a law to kill all hypocrites or apostasies it is permission for the muslims to kill them if they come and attack the muslims. In noway does it correspond to your statement of the following
‘’But there are those individuals who belonged to stronger tribes/alliances. Muhammad was not strong enough yet to go after those individuals. Going after them will put Muhammad and his pirates in trouble facing stronger tribes. To avoid such possible conflicts, Muhammad establishes an exception to the rule.’’

This is a silly answer. IBNKAMMUNA you should know better than to state that these people belonged to stronger tribes and alliances and that muhammed was yet not strong enough to go for these individuals. In all Wars that muslims fought against the makkans they were always outnumbered 3:1 or 5:1 and many more but they always defeated the makkan army. When the makkans came to attack the muslims in medina, the muslims were utterly outnumbered by the makkans so they built a trent to hold them out. who won than?

Therefore for you to say these statements is easily disputable. Therefore it can be established that the exception rule were for those who didn’t commit treason because it gives clear permission for those that did in 4:91 that they should be killed.

Anyway IBNKAMMUNA I have presAnyway IBNKAMMUNA I have explained the view from my literal translations. But obviously you may not believe my words or my interpretation so let me present the following by
On April 2, 2006, M. Cherif Bassiouni, a professor and the president of the International Human Rights Law Institute at DePaul University College of Law, wrote an op-ed in the Chicago Tribune on apostasy (leaving a religion), asserting that it is not a capital crime in Islamic law.
Bassiouni writes:
The principal category of crimes in Islam is called hudud. These crimes are referred to in the Koran and thus require prosecution. They are: adultery, theft, transgression (physical aggression), highway robbery, slander and alcohol consumption. Apostasy is included in this list by most scholars, but not by a few others. The Koran refers to it as follows: "And whoever of you turns [away] from his religion [Islam] and dies disbelieving, their works have failed in this world and the next [world]. Those are the inhabitants of fire: therein they shall dwell forever." Surat (chapter) al-Ma'eda, verse 35. This verse does not criminalize the turning away from Islam, nor does it establish a penalty.
Analysis:
(1) One of the most excessive aspects of Islamic law derived from the Quran and the hadith is its punishments for crimes like highway robbery and theft, and for sins like adultery. I have already written on most of the topics in Bassiouni's quick list. The following punishments are derived from the Islamic holy book and the sound hadiths.
Death for adultery
Death for homosexuality
Crucifixion or mutilation for highway robbery
Mutilation for male and female thieves
Whipping for alcoholism and gambling
Literal eye for eye
(2) Bassiouni quotes Sura (Chapter) 5:35 as if it were the only verse in the Quran that deals with apostates. But here are other verses: Suras 2:217; 3:72, 86-87, 90; 4:137; 5:54; 16:106; 33:14; 47:25-27; 73:11; and 74:11. He notes, correctly, that 5:35 says that punishment for apostates is reserved for Judgment in the Last Day. It must be conceded that these other verses also leave punishment in Allah's hands.
However, two verses put punishment in Muhammad's hands. The so-called hypocrites embraced Islam with reservations. Sometimes they supported Muhammad from a geographical and religious distance, for example, in saying prayers the Muslim way. At other times, they seemed to help the enemies of Islam (see Abul A'La Maududi, The Meaning of the Quran, vol. 1, pp. 361-62, notes 116-117).
In Sura 4:88-89 Allah tells the Prophet how to deal with these particular hypocrites.
4:88-89 Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance) 89 They wish that you reject (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So, take not Auliya (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold of) them and kill [q-t-l] them wherever you find them . . . . (Hilali and Khan, parenthetical insertions are theirs; mine in brackets)
We should note two facts from these verses. First, Allah himself made the hypocrites go astray, yet he orders them killed. Second, the Arabic verb qatala is used (root is q-t-l), and this word means exclusively to fight, kill, war, battle, or slaughter. Its meaning is much narrower than that of jihad, though this latter word also includes bloodshed.
Verse 90 goes on to say that if these nominal Muslims seek peace, not war, then Allah has not opened a way for Muhammad to fight them. He must allow them to live in their state of hypocrisy. However, as verse 89 says, if they turn back both from emigrating and Islam, then they shall be battled. So there is no ambiguity about Muhammad's policy on full apostates-death.
http://www.islam-watch.org/RebuttingIslam/JamesApostasy.htm
So according to this guy there were hypocrites but they were only faught in battle due to them wanting to fight the muslims otherwise if they stayed peacefully than they wouldn’t have been killed. According to him and many other scholars these people were only killed because they treasoned.
Further more IBNKAMMUNA I will present these findings:

Punishment of Apostasy in the Qur'an
As presented in excerpts from numerous sources below, and links to works available online, there is no worldly punishment solely for apostasy [i.e., changing of one's faith/religion] mentioned in the Qur'an.

• Ibrahim al-Nakha'i [d. 95 AH]
[a leading jurist and traditionist among the generation succeeding the Companions]

According to al-Nakha'i, apostate should be re-invited to Islam, but should never be condemned to death. [He] maintained the view that the invitation should continue for as long as there is hope that the apostate might change his mind and repent. [referred to in Chapter: Freedom of Religion in Mohammad Hashim Kamali’s Freedom of Expression in Islam Islamic Text Society, 1997]

• Sufyan al-Thawri [d. 161 AH]
[known as 'the prince of the believers concerning Hadith' (amir al-mu'minin fi'l-Hadith) and is the author of two important compilations of Hadith, namely al-Jami' al-Kabir, and al-Jami' al- Saghir]

According to al-Thawri, apostate should be re-invited to Islam, but should never be condemned to death. [He] maintained the view that the invitation should continue for as long as there is hope that the apostate might change his mind and repent. [cited in Kamali, as above]

• Shams al-Din al-Sarakhsi [d. 389 AH]
[An eminent Hanafi jurist and author of al-Mabsut]

"The prescribed penalties (Hudud) are generally not suspended because of repentance, especially when they are reported and become known to the head of state (imam). The punishment of highway robbery, for instance, is not suspended because of repentance; it is suspended only by the return of property to the owner prior to arrest. ... Renunciation of the faith and conversion to disbelief is admittedly the greatest of offenses, yet it is a matter between man and his Creator, and its punishment is postponed to the day of judgment (fa'l-jaza' 'alayha mu'akhkhar ila dar al-jaza'). Punishments that are enforced in this life are those which protect the people's interests, such as just retaliation, which is designed to protect life." [al-Mabsut, X, p. 110, quoted in Kamali cited above.]

• Abu Al-Walid Al-Baji [d. 474 AH]
[a noted Maliki jurist; a contemporary of Imam Ibn Hazm]

... observed that apostasy is a sin which carries no prescribed penalty (hadd), and that such a sin may only be punished under the discretionary punishment of ta'zir ... [mentioned in Kamali cited above]

If you want to know more visit

http://apostasyandislam.blogspot.com/

Dear London Spirit, thank you for the rebuttal you put. I will leave it to the readers to see who is on the right tracks. You really are lost. My mother tongue is Arabic. Those people were Muslims, then left because they felt that Muhammad is on the losing end after his Uhud Loss. Anyway, I'll leave it to the readers to judge.
However, one more thing I'd like to ask you. Toward the end of our debate article, you mention that Muhammd never attacked unprovoked, ..etc. I linked you to an article i wrote to show you that Muhammad did in fact attack people for no reason at all (Bani Almustaliq). Do you deny that too? Please go to my link, read the article. It has Sahih Hadiths to prove my point. Tell me that I am not understanding the hadiths too. Or maybe you want to deny the hadiths too.
Have a good day brother.

londonspirit wrote:

DEMSCI the sole reason why we wont accept no other man to be prophet, because it clearly says in the quran that prophet muhammed is the seal of the prophets. Thats it there can be nothing after him. However we do belive in 2 people that would come in the near future to bring peace according to the prophecy whereby there would be a time where there would be so much destruction on the earth, due to wars and greta natural disasters.

I know I should not be talking about this since I am a faithhead, but seriously londonspirit do you believe everything Islam states just because Muhammed said so?

Londonspirit:

1. Is it not true that Islam prohibit any kind of prophecy / fortune telling? Than how can you know that there should be 2 people who might come in near future?
2. How did Mohammad know that messages conveyed to him were from God not from Satan?
3. Regarding the Current discussion of Apostasy, I would rather believe the Islamic schools of Jurisprudence which advocates the death penalty for apostates.
4. No one is asking you to become atheist but you could become spiritual, who believes that there is some one some where looking after us.
But certainly It can not be someone who commanded prophet to discriminate among his own creation of different faith.

IBNKAMMUNA why do you assume I am lost? And if your mother tongue is arabic it would be easier for you to understand that the verses you quote are reffering to a story and permission. It is not revealing a law. Like I have stated in a rebuttal that laws in islam are presented clearly and concisely, which makes it easy for people to understand. It is no fault of the quran whereby you and muslims alike together with non-muslims use certain section of verses to satisfy your own desires.

In regards to Bani Almustaliq people do you think they were attacked cause Muhammed felt like it. Be serious man. No one attacks any one for no reason. And even if he did he would be contradicting himself. Cause in according to the quran muslims are not allowed to kill. IBNKAMMUNA if you reaserach on the internet in regards to this hadith which you and ali sina quote in regards to the attacking of Bani Mustaqlin you would know that it has already been answered in the following webstes:

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/companion/04_abu_bakr.htm

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/ch4s12.html

http://www.muslimhope.com/BanuMustaliq.htm

http://www.scribd.com/doc/12834987/Rebuttal-to-Ali-Sina-Article-Juwairiy...

You see ali sina has raised this issue many times. He just finds one hadith, not caring whther it could be authentic or not and not relating it to the story whereby it would give an answer. Because if he had actually read the text together with some other hadiths he would have realiszed that the attack was due to hostility from the other side. Here is just a little summary of why these people got attacked.

The Banu Mustaliq, a branch of Banu Khuza'a occupied the territory of Qadid on the Red Sea shore between Jeddah and Rabigh. In 527 C.E. news was brought to Madina that the Banu Mustaliq in alliance with some other tribes were gathering to make a raid on Madina. The policy of the Holy Prophet was that the Muslims should not lose the initiative in such cases, and should take such tribes by surprise. Another aspect of the policy was that action against individual tribes should be taken before they could effect an alliance.

Peace man I hope you realize that in regards to apostatsy there is no direct verse from the quran that says to kill them

MARIE that is a pathetic question to ask me. Really it is sincerely stupid. Let me ask you Do you belive everything that jesus has taught?

LS
whats the point writting 1000 pages if you can not explain below

"what about the news about apostasy, people get killed, beheaded, and fatwa for apostasy. What do you say about those reality sir?"

when you wrote those boring esay did you see its coincide with reality

will you go to those ulama whos issue fatwa to chalange them and abolish those fatwa.
mad ham mo is false prophet, its been clearly described by JC,

kabirlaw,

your brain has been marinated in the xxxx flavour sauce for too long.

you wrote

"Out of his mercy he sent prophets to mankind to guide them aright after they had strayed and to bring man and woman back to the worship of the one true God"

simple logic

OT ===> NT ===> Quran
war and barbaric ===> loves ===> back to war (only if you been attacked, but still WAR?)

god guide people to leave in peace and love, but mad ham mo "guide" people back to stray.

londonspirit wrote:

MARIE that is a pathetic question to ask me. Really it is sincerely stupid. Let me ask you Do you belive everything that jesus has taught?

Nice try. Answer my question first and then I will answer yours.

KAFIR123 how can you pose a question like that. Why dont you find the difference between fortune telling and prophecy.

Prophecy is revelation given to prophets from god.

Fortune telling is of the following:
There are among mankind, people who claim knowledge of the unseen and the future. They are known by various names, among them: fortune-teller, soothsayer, foreseer, augur, magician, prognosticator, oracle, astrologer, palmist, etc. Fortune-tellers use various methods and mediums from which they claim to extract their information, among them: reading tea-leaves, drawing lines, writing numbers, palm-reading, casting horoscopes, crystal ball gazing, rattling bones, throwing sticks, etc.

Practitioners of occult arts, which claim to reveal the unseen and predict the future, can be divided into two main categories:

1. Those who have no real knowledge or secrets but depend on telling their customers about general incidences which happen to most people. They often go through a series of meaningless rituals, then make calculatedly general guesses. Some of their guesses, due to their generality, usually come true. Most people tend to remember the few predictions that come true and quickly forget the many which do not. This tendency is a result of the fact that after some time all the predictions tend to become half-forgotten thoughts in the subconscious until something happens to trigger their recall. For example, it has become a common practice in North America to publish, at the beginning of each year the various predictions of famous fortune-tellers. When a survey was taken of the various predictions for the year 1980, it was found that the most accurate fortune-teller among them was only 24% accurate in her predictions!

2. The second group are those who have made contact with the Jinn. This group is of most importance because it usually involves the grave sin of Shirk, and those involved often tend to be highly accurate in their information and thus present a real Fitnah (temptations) for both Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

In reads to your other question. I dont think satan would teach people to love one another or look after your elders or show mercy agains the young and so on.
You can belive who ever you want in regards to apostasy. Its none of my concern whoever you believe

MARIE i dont need to answer yours considering you already know the answer

Kabirlaw, You write well about your beliefs. Both you and LondonSpirit are very serious, deep thinking, diligent people with a lot of passion. I like that and I think we have a lot in common.

Yes, I genuinely want to understand Islam + have read a lot about it.

It is also totally up to you whether to believe or not. But a lot of what you believe I see as assumptions, choices. The biggest gamble being that the persons who really told you all this, were Divinely inspired. Because they could have been having illusions, or telling lies. Just like false prophets that claim the same, but who you don't believe.

But my only concern is that these beliefs, with a part of the muslims, will keep blocking the freedom of fellow-muslims to augment, supplement these beliefs with many other good ideas, becoming more broadminded, wiser. Or that these beliefs, with a part of the Muslims, will maintain, or lead to, the blocking of freedom of speech.

I came to call Islam irrelevant when:
I. FFI challenged Muslims about Islamic teaching and their influence on the bad behavior of self-professed followers.
II. Muslims, and many Westerners too, denied such influence completely. When the responsibility for it was always put on individuals and common human nature. When was argued that followers of other faiths showed the same bad behavior.

I considered the possibility that this was correct. But then I considered that the influence of Islamic teaching on good behavior of self-professed followers just as likely could be completely denied. Putting the responsibility for that too on individuals and common human nature. Arguing that followers of other faiths showed the same good behavior.

How relevant was and is Islam then? Can individuals with their human nature not develop in the 21st century on their own, using their own brains, with the help of Science, instead of relying on Divine Inspiration?

londonspirit wrote:

MARIE i dont need to answer yours considering you already know the answer

No I don't know your answer. Answer my question and then I will answer yours. Stop giving merry go round answers.

LS
good luck to you brother. Keep wasting your time and life following a thug.
What you are saying about Bani Almutaliq does not make sense. Did you even read the hadiths in my article. He did not even give them a chance to embrace "the religion of peace". Did not Muhammad say "I was made victorious with terror". How much evidence do you need man. Get real. Keep hiding your brain in the Arabian desert sand. Better yet, why don't you move to Saudi Arabia. Yes, its a civilized society over there. You can do the Jum'aa prayer then enjoy the seens of cutting of limbs. If you are lucky, they'll have some beheadings just to your liking.

LS wrote:
"I myself would never become an atheist because it is absolutely impossible for the universe to move in perfect order. Actually i just look at the ants and i see the miracle of the ants is enough to make me believe that there is a bigger power."

You know, my own mother talked like that, as a protestant. There was this proof of God, by some English Minister, in the 19th century. It said, if you found a watch in nature, you know it did not evolve, but that it was created by some maker. So the same holds true for all these complex creatures. But this was before Darwin.

Now, scientists say something like: OK, the very first beginning of life on Earth we can't yet explain, but from there we see the pattern. And everything that exists today, is just that; what exists today. Life could have taken countless courses in these billions of years and the one you see is the course it did take.

But once started, life HAD to take a course. Had Dinosaurs become very intelligent and wondered about nature, they TOO would have said, how could this have happened pure by evolution, since it is sooooo complicated and wonderful? ANY intelligent being would have asked the same question after ANY possible course life would have taken. Since it HAD to take one course of the countless possible ones. And life being constantly in development, to ever more complicated forms.

38. londonspirit
I don’t think if Nastradamus was a Prophet or if He has been described as a Prophet by any religion. But for sure I know that his published collection is called prophecies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostradamus). So simply tell me if they are allowed or not. For me he is more important than Prophet Muhammad.
Yes I know if 100% of their fortune telling is accurate, than they would come next to God. Indians are very famous for this type of fortune telling.
Mafia also cares and love their family, friends and relatives and person who are associated to them. But at the same time Mafia leader would not mind issuing a death warrant against his loved ones if one goes against them. I see some similarity here.
Do you have any other evidence if Prophet was conveyed the Message of God? As for me God will never ask any of his prophets to discriminate among his own creation irrespective of religion as this is us who has created the religion.

Demsci wrote:

You know, my own mother talked like that, as a protestant. There was this proof of God, by some English Minister, in the 19th century. It said, if you found a watch in nature, you know it did not evolve, but that it was created by some maker. So the same holds true for all these complex creatures. But this was before Darwin.

I heard that once while taking a class on religion. One of the students got into a debate with the teacher who is an atheist and the student used the same argument.

The problem with the argument is the watch is not a living thing.

Now, scientists say something like: OK, the very first beginning of life on Earth we can’t yet explain, but from there we see the pattern. And everything that exists today, is just that; what exists today. Life could have taken countless courses in these billions of years and the one you see is the course it did take.

But once started, life HAD to take a course. Had Dinosaurs become very intelligent and wondered about nature, they TOO would have said, how could this have happened pure by evolution, since it is sooooo complicated and wonderful? ANY intelligent being would have asked the same question after ANY possible course life would have taken. Since it HAD to take one course of the countless possible ones. And life being constantly in development, to ever more complicated forms.

While I am not a fan of evolution, but your commentary does make sense.

Thank you Marie, it means a lot to me, you and I in agreement.

I think I am now a Deist, believing in a God, but not in the Christian God. As I know you do. Well, it can't be helped. By now we in the West have accepted the great variety of beliefs and we coexist peacefully together, often influencing each other positively.

It is that society that is missing in many Islamic countries. And it is that society that in the long term is threathened by: Islamic possible demographics, intentions, and behavior-patterns.

By the way; My brother from America was over today and for a few weeks.

By the way, the English minister, with the "proof of God" was Paley.

Demsci wrote:

Thank you Marie, it means a lot to me, you and I in agreement.

I think I am now a Deist, believing in a God, but not in the Christian God. As I know you do. Well, it can’t be helped. By now we in the West have accepted the great variety of beliefs and we coexist peacefully together, often influencing each other positively.

It is that society that is missing in many Islamic countries. And it is that society that in the long term is threathened by: Islamic possible demographics, intentions, and behavior-patterns.

I love being westerner and western society is great!

#25. kabirlaw wrote: "We keep Islamic law not Mosaic law. If there are any similarities between the two then that is because both Muhammad and Moses (PBUT) were sent by the same God and so many practices are the same. "

Don't say it is the same God. The Biblical God has a son Jesus, but the Quranic one doesn't. So how it can be, the same God having a son and not having a son at the same time? Yehweh and Allah are not the same. Allah is a figment of Mohammed's imagination. God. As for the Islamic law, Mohammed stole many of those from the Old Testament.

#29 Why tell people not to listen to me. The guys just went to the moon and the earth was round. ROUND not flat. The Jews said ROUIND in Isa 40:22 not flat as the Quran said. The Quran said the earth is flat.

#29 Muhammad was the Messiah of SATAN as sura 3:54 says. If yiou follow allah you follow the devil as sura 3:54 says and you can never prove me wrong. NEVER. Allah said he was the greatest deceiver, schemer, liar, planner to deceive and scheme. Allah is the DEVIL and sura 3:54 says so and so did Muhammad the ONLY prophet of Allah the DEVIL.

#51 I agree. Allah is more like the Greek God named Zeus. If allah is yhwh of the Jews, then he is insane. BecaUse Mo had no living sons and it was important to have sons in Arabia, Allah had no sons. Therefore he made up the lie that the God of the Bible had no sons. This is another crack in the Islamic wall of lies that is a big hole, which will cause the Islamic wall to come tumbling down, like Humpty Dumpty Down, down down, the Islamic wall is tumbling down.

Muhammad knew allah couldnt do a thing, so he said allah was doing it by using men. Baloney.

32. londonspirit Says:
2. why do you have to use mid sections of a verse to justify your claims. I have said before that translations can never be fully correct due to the sensitiveness of the Arabic language. Although in the modern day the translation to English is getting better and better, but this may further take some time to translate into the appropriate text.

There is so much lost in translation, (as claimed by LondonSpirit) wonder whats the mother tongue of LondonSpirit?
If its not English, then he should get the debates of Ibn Kammuna translated in his mother tongue and then read them again.
Even if his mother tongue is English, he would still need to improve his English language skills.

#51 Raisinhead wrote: "Therefore he made up the lie that the God of the Bible had no sons. "

Personally, I believe that Mohammed sincerely believed that God had no son and the Crucifixion never happened. Mohammed's small mind could not accept that God had a son and even if He had, it was possible for the son to die (But somehow he accepted the virgin birth). Hence the great curse called Islam on mankind.