Apostasy in Islam

Islam is a simple crime syndicate. Just like 'drug gang'; 'Mafia' etc works. Islam also works in same way. Any person leaving a gang is no doubt dangerous as he knows in and out of the treacheries and bad secrets, so the apostates. That's why muslims panic to hear the name of persons like Salman Rushdie, Taslima Nasrin, Wafa Sultan, Nooni Darwis etc.

Unfortunately, the western world due to political correctness and OIL factor is not tackling this menace. They should by now know that mullah scums want a easy job, just preach hate speach. Thats why the most cruel persons become mullahs.
Whenever needed they will give special emphasis of Jihad suras and lo zombies like terrorists are formed , with assurance that Mr Mo will provide them 72 virgins.
In Saudi arabia 90 % of the workers, technicians, architects , managers etc are from outside the country.Similarly UAE. There the people just because of oil, dont do anything. Now they are wasting money on madrassa , terrorism etc instead of working on developing human capital, human rights, propagation of science etc. The shieks most of the time enjoy girls, belly dancers, casinos etc. Many poor maids from other countries are sexually abused.
These things will go down in history as most shameful, along with the appeasing politicians.

The grim reality for a modern Muslim regarding apostasy is that its death penalty is rooted in the Qur’an and in the Hadith. I have shown that this is the case in this article. Such a punishment for a behavior that is not a crime at all, but a right that any human being of our time should enjoy, cannot be a morally justified punishment. One should be able to change religious beliefs if one wants to without the threat of being killed.

That is why we should reject the Quran and the Hadith. They are not divine words as proudly proclaim but words of the humans filled with sense of insecurity. I'm being taught during my younger days "Allah is formless. You cannot create or Image Allah as form as it will be considered as haram"

"Why cant we form Allah into an Image" I ask the ustazah.

"because.... Allah is so great... by forming an image, we are limiting Allah greatness. His form is great that no human mind can conceive it"

And this young inquisitve child [ that is me] ask her again "So if we are not able to form the image of Allah because the limitation of our rmind, how can we understand the words of Allah. You did say the Quran is the word of Allah. How sure are we that those words transmitted to Mohammed are not misinterpreted?"

The Ustazah looked at me : "how dare you ask such a question" Atlas I am but just a Child then....trying to understand. Now I really understood.

Ibn Kammuna, many thanks for a well researched article. You have shown with proof the treatment to be meted out to apostates in the hadiths. As far as the Quran is concerned, I am not so sure because those verses which you have Quoted may be in connection to the Meccan Idolaters and not the apostates. Please clarify.

Dear rajiv12, thanks brother for your comment.
My native tongue is Arabic. When I read verses 4:89 and 4:90, I see them prescribing killing anyone who leaves the faith. Here they are:
﴿فَمَا لَكُمْ فِى الْمُنَـفِقِينَ فِئَتَيْنِ وَاللَّهُ أَرْكَسَهُمْ بِمَا كَسَبُواْ أَتُرِيدُونَ أَن تَهْدُواْ مَنْ أَضَلَّ اللَّهُ وَمَن يُضْلِلِ اللَّهُ فَلَن تَجِدَ لَهُ سَبِيلاً - وَدُّواْ لَوْ تَكْفُرُونَ كَمَا كَفَرُواْ فَتَكُونُونَ سَوَآءً فَلاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ مِنْهُمْ أَوْلِيَآءَ حَتَّى يُهَاجِرُواْ فِى سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْاْ فَخُذُوهُمْ وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ وَلاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ مِنْهُمْ وَلِيّاً وَلاَ نَصِيراً - إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ يَصِلُونَ إِلَى قَوْمٍ بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَهُمْ مِّيثَـقٌ أَوْ جَآءُوكُمْ حَصِرَتْ صُدُورُهُمْ أَن يُقَـتِلُونَكُمْ أَوْ يُقَـتِلُواْ قَوْمَهُمْ وَلَوْ شَآءَ اللَّهُ لَسَلَّطَهُمْ عَلَيْكُمْ فَلَقَـتَلُوكُمْ فَإِنِ اعْتَزَلُوكُمْ فَلَمْ يُقَـتِلُوكُمْ وَأَلْقَوْاْ إِلَيْكُمُ السَّلَمَ فَمَا جَعَلَ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ سَبِيلاً - سَتَجِدُونَ ءَاخَرِينَ يُرِيدُونَ أَن يَأْمَنُوكُمْ وَيَأْمَنُواْ قَوْمَهُمْ كُلَّ مَا رُدُّواْ إِلَى الْفِتْنِةِ أُرْكِسُواْ فِيِهَا فَإِن لَّمْ يَعْتَزِلُوكُمْ وَيُلْقُواْ إِلَيْكُمُ السَّلَمَ وَيَكُفُّواْ أَيْدِيَهُمْ فَخُذُوهُمْ وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ ثِقِفْتُمُوهُمْ وَأُوْلَـئِكُمْ جَعَلْنَا لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ سُلْطَـناً مُّبِيناً ﴾
(88. Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites Allah has cast them back because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made to go astray And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him a way.) (89. They wish that you reject faith, as they have rejected, and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Awliya' from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah. But if they turn back, take (hold of) them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Awliya' nor helpers from them.)
It seems clear from the verses that when Muhammad and the Muslims had the upper hand, they are instructed to kill the apostates.
The way I think Islam should be understood through Qur'an, Hadith and Sirat. The more evidence you have from those sources, the more accurate or correct your understanding of an Islamic teaching is. When you combine the Qur'anic teachings, with Hadith (both should be in agreement), you will reach the same conclusion about how to deal with apostates. Maulana Maududi had a deep understanding of Qur'an, and he flat out says the apostates are to be killed. Same for other well-known Islamic scholars.
It is only in the last 20 years or so we had Islamic scholars trying to say that Islam does not prescribe death penalty for apostasy (i.e. Ghamidi, Badawi)
I do have other material to mention brother. I am at work right now, but will probably post another comment on the available evidence.
Thank you for your comment brother.

JAH, You are sidetracking the discussion. While the author has provided a clear proof of the death penalty for apostasy is rooted in the hadiths, the reader doubts the same for the Quran. The Quranic verses quoted by the author may have been for the Meccans who were the mortal enemy of Allah and Muhammad. Call them idolaters, disbelievers, polytheists, pagans, etc.

Thanks Ibn Kammuna for your post @no 4.

I checked 4:89 Tafsirs on line. it is clear it is talking about anyone who became a Muslim, then left the faith. The prescription is to kill the apostates.
Here is one text of Tafsit (Sunni Tafsir)[others like Jalalyn and Al Wahidi prescribe the same penalty]

Quote:"(They long that you should disbelieve) in Muhammad and the Qur'an (even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them)) in following idolatry. (So choose not friends from them) in religion or for seeking assistance and backing (till they forsake their homes) until they believe again and migrate (in the way of Allah) in obedience of Allah; (if they turn back) from faith and migration (then take them) as prisoners (and kill them wherever you find them) in the Sacred Precinct or anywhere else, (and choose no friend) in religion or for seeking assistance and backing (nor helper) a protector (from among them),

I think the Qur'anic evidence is clear on this matter.

I wonder if Spinoza,the great jewish philospher was declared heretic by Muslims?

IBN KAMMUNA you have showed two verses from the quran about killing apostate. Can i just relate to your comments as to why you have chosen this specific verse and not mentioned the verses before and after. As if you did you would know what this verses actually mean. Lets start with 4:89 we will go one verse before an one verse after

[4:88] Why should you divide yourselves into two groups regarding hypocrites (among you)? GOD is the one who condemned them because of their own behavior. Do you want to guide those who are sent astray by GOD? Whomever GOD sends astray, you can never find a way to guide them.

[4:89] They wish that you disbelieve as they have disbelieved, then you become equal. Do not consider them friends, unless they mobilize along with you in the cause of GOD. If they turn against you, you shall fight them, and you may kill them when you encounter them in war. You shall not accept them as friends, or allies.

[4:90] Exempted are those who join people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, and those who come to you wishing not to fight you, nor fight their relatives. Had GOD willed, He could have permitted them to fight against you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

[4:91] You will find others who wish to make peace with you, and also with their people. However, as soon as war erupts, they fight against you. Unless these people leave you alone, offer you peace, and stop fighting you, you may fight them when you encounter them. Against these, we give you a clear authorization.

You checked tafsir wrong because if you read 4:88 it clearly is talking about hypocrites. these people say they belive but they didnt. Than they waged war. So in 4:89 and than authroization was given to kill those people who fight you.

And than if you read 4:90 it is saying it is forbiddon to touch those people who has signed a peace treaty

So IBN KAMMUNA you can clearly see from the verses that it has got absolutely nothing to do with people who leave islam.

Now 002.217
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: “Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members.” Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

This has nothing to do with apostasy either. Firstly it is reffering to a satge of war. secondly if you read to wards the end it says

And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

it is clearly just saying if you reject faith you will bear the fruits of heaven. It has no mention of anyone in this life killing these people. So again it has nothing to do with killing the people who leave islam.

Read the verses properly IBNKAMMUNA.

Now

009.011
YUSUFALI: But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practice regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.
009.012
YUSUFALI: But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained

Have you even read this verse. What has it got to do with people who leave islam.

it is talking about the leaders who broke their oath of not to start war. It is gives authorization that if the leaders break the oath than you can attack the leaders.

IBNKAMMUNA you have failed to produce a single verse from the quran in regards to killing an apostate. As a matter of fact there aint a single verse in the quran that says we should kill people who leave islam. Its a known fact and even the person who you respect (ALI SINA) knows that.

In regards to hadith these are all narrations. as you can see from the hadiths the prophet never ever said kill those who leave islam, these are actions of other people. Any way the hadiths can never be scientifically proven correct, therefore it is the quran that it is to be followed. Not the hadith. The hadith is considered to be a sunnah not farz.

So mate you havent proved nothing on this forum.

There is no need to look for a proof in Quran. Apostasy is not left unpunished.

Some muslim countries who follow Quran to the end, kill people who leave Islam. Rest, punishes them in society, making life harder, sometimes forcing them to leave the neighbourhood. They stop talking to you, they don't let you marry their daughters or sons. They won't want anything to do with you, because you are now an infidel.

And being a non-muslim, is not welcomed in Muslim world. You don't need to read the entire Quran to see that.

I don't understand people like londonspirit (above). When you quote Quran to point out violence, or injustice in Islam, they always reply "Why didn't you read the verses before and after that one you refer to? It is not violent (or not injustice), only you couldn't get it".

This is not rocket science. It's just a book. You get what you read. There are no hard-to-get figurative speeches, or metaphors. You must have already realized if you read Quran, that it is plain and simple. Yet Muslims try to defend their religion when you make an argument, and they accuse you for not understanding its true meaning.

Well, there is no true meaning other than what we already got. If Quran says, "Don't be friends with infidels", then that's it. You don't need to read the verses before and after that. Even if you do, it will not change the meaning. It will just add a few conditions to the statement, which really don't make any impact on the meaning.

How many muslims out of 100, really thought about Islam and chose it intentionally? I am pretty much sure it's way less than the number of muslims who inherited Islam from their parents (or society). So it's dumb to make an argument and say "You read Quran and didn't get it", because majority of the Muslims didn't even bother to get.

Going back to Apostasy, I suggest every Muslim to leave their religion as it feeds on violence. It doesn't have tolerance to non-muslims.

I'm not saying Islam is bad and other religions are good. I'm just saying that Islam is a terrible religion to convert to and "leave", and please don't bother to say it's not.

Dear LondonSpirit, thank you for your comment. You have provided me with enough material for a follow up article. Thanks
A quick couple of things: 1. Can you tell us what the Qur'an prescribes for apostasy? I'd like to hear what you say about this.2. verse 89 above prescribes death penalty for apostates. I read it in Arabic, English, saw many Tafsirs. I have no doubt it prescribes death penalty for apostasy. Verses before and after do not change this fact.3. When Azhar professor Mark Gabriel left Islam, and declared he became a Christian, his father came after him with a gun shooting. Can you in all honesty tell me that this is not true Islam in practice? By the way, the verse 217 above came to Muhammad after the Nakhla raid where the Muslims attacked a Meccan commercial caravan during a holy month. Muhammad wanted to justify what he and his desert pirates did. Just wanted to get you straight on this one.
I'll be using your comment above brother for my follow up article.
By the way, hadith complements Qur'anic teaching. You can deny hadiths till the cows come home. before modern criticism of islam, no one rejected hadith as you all do now. The knew better. Hadith is integral to Islam. people like Maududi, and all 4 islamic schools leaders knew that. Only people like you who want to save a barbarian desert religion try to deny hadiths.

"The third Hadith shows that Muslims will go to war to fight a group of apostates. There is also some economic benefits to Muslims out of such a war."

Sura 4:88-89

Why are you thus divided concerning the hypocrites, when God has cast them off on the account of their misdeeds? Would you guide those whom God has confounded. He whom God confounds you cannot guide. They would have you disbelieve as they themselves have disbelieved, so that you may be all alike. Do not befriend them until they have fled their homes in the cause of God. If they desert you seize them and put them to death wherever you find them. Look for neither friends nor helpers among them.

By the way why would God confound his creation away from him. The only people who could confound people away from God is Satan.

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 59:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
When the Prophet died and Abu Bakr became his successor and some of the Arabs reverted to disbelief, ‘Umar said, “O Abu Bakr! How can you fight these people although Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, ‘and whoever said, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’, Allah will save his property and his life from me, unless (he does something for which he receives legal punishment) justly, and his account will be with Allah?’ “Abu Bakr said, “By Allah! I will fight whoever differentiates between prayers and Zakat as Zakat is the right to be taken from property (according to Allah’s Orders). By Allah! If they refused to pay me even a kid they used to pay to Allah’s Apostle, I would fight with them for withholding it.” ‘Umar said, “By Allah: It was nothing, but I noticed that Allah opened Abu Bakr’s chest towards the decision to fight, therefore I realized that his decision was right.”

If Allah is suppose to be a merciful god, then why does he demand total obedience from his creation?

While Allah makes all these demands for his worshippers to show they are faithful and love him, Allah has done nothing to show his people that he loves them. Allah demands this and that and has done nothing in return to show love for his creation, while demanding that all people return to the "right path" which is suppose to be Islam. If Allah wants people to return to him then why hasn't he done something to show he loves his creation and wants to be with them? God has done many things to save the Israelites from destruction and Jesus gave his life on the cross in order to bring salvation to the world. But Allah has done nothing.

009.011
YUSUFALI: But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practice regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.
009.012
YUSUFALI: But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained

God gave us freewill to believe in him, so where is the freewill by killing those who don't believe in him?

"The law of apostasy", clearly shows there is no spirituality in this doctrine. Just like any dictator cant tolerate the critisism of him, so was Mr Mo.

Infact, we should be greatful of the apostates who came forward and show the ugly face of Islam. Also Taliban showed us what true sunni islam is while Islamic Iran showed us what shia islam is.
Its painful to see girls like 9-18 or women around 71 getting killed just for talking with some strangers.

Islam is a shame or disgrace to humanity. Every muslims should feel shame for being the carrier of his mohommedan virus.

It troubles us to see our brethen is carrying Islam virus and wants to infect others.

World needs freedom , liberty, diversity. This concept of one God, one religion is dangerous. Its like eat only burger for removing hunger and no other diet.
Just like to remove hunger multiple food and dishes we can have, similarly to have a human and spritual success, we need the thought process of multitude of thinkers like socrates, buddha, jesus, rama, krishna, cyrus, ayn ryn etc.

Mohammed gave a lethal poison in the form of koran which not only destroys the host but make him dangerous for others.

pathfinder wrote:

“The law of apostasy”, clearly shows there is no spirituality in this doctrine. Just like any dictator cant tolerate the critisism of him, so was Mr Mo.

There is no spirituality when a deity demands total blind obedience.

IBNKAMMUNA To my knowledge i dont think there is a single verse written in the quran in regards to apostate. I cannot say for sure there is one as i aint no muslim scholor or anything. All i did was get your verses and actually read to understand what the whole chapter was talking about. And if you read the verses clearly you can tell that out of the three verses you quote from the quran not a single one you can generally claim to be talkng about apostates.

IBNKAMMUNA i will go through the verse you go step by step as you really fail to understand. Lets look at it from the top because to understand 4:89 you have to look at what the previous verse says. You cannot start a book or a chapter from the middle. you always start from the begining. In this case you have to look at the begining and the beginging starts of at 4:89, verses previous to that are in relation to something else.

Now to understand the verses into the proper format you have to understand the historical context. Why would such an order be given to kill disbelivers?

The primary reason was that muslims were being attacked regularily and fritening the muslims of medina. So allah issued the order, which can be established in 4:89 which says

4:89] They wish that you disbelieve as they have disbelieved, then you become equal. Do not consider them friends, unless they mobilize along with you in the cause of GOD. If they turn against you, you shall fight them, and you may kill them when you encounter them in war. You shall not accept them as friends, or allies.

you can clearly tell that it was relation to war because it says IF THEY TURN AGAINST YOU. from this you can also clearly understand that the muslims were given permission to fight only if the non-muslims did such an action and hence in the following bit it says

you shall fight them, and you may kill them when you encounter them in war

nowhere does this verse indicate that it is reffering to apostates. So i dont know where you got that idea that it does. Please explain to me IBNKAMMUNA where does it say people who leave islam should be killed. Dont you think if the verse was reffering to killing of an apostate it would say something like this

4:89] They wish that you disbelieve as they have disbelieved, then you become equal. Do not consider them friends, unless they mobilize along with you in the cause of GOD. If they leave the true path you, you shall fight them, and you may kill them when you encounter them. You shall not accept them as friends, or allies.

if the verse was arranged in this way i can put my hand on heart and say yes it refers to killing of apostates. But it doesnt.

My question to you is please IBNKAMMUNA explain to me how you go about that conclusion that this verse is reffering to apostates leaving islam.It is important that you give your answer in accordance to religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted.

Moving on you say someone left islam and his dad came with a gun to shoot him. And for this and probably many other situations you have started to blame islam for an individual actions.

Let me tell you know, i live in england and i have come across similer situations from the newspaper and also the news. It is not common only with muslims but also with christians, hindus and espcially sikhs.

Why i say espcially sikhs is because i have read from newspapaers that sikh gal falls in love with muslim guy and converts to islam. And her dad goes kills her mum, the gal and her husband.

Other situations hindu family throws acid at her daughters eyes because she left hinduism for islam.

Other stries christian family slices daughters throat and her lover because she left christianity for islam.

If you want proof of these stories just write honour killings on google and you would come with combinations of different faiths who have individuals performing these actions.

Now i ask you a question. Am i now to say that all these other religion says to kill people who leave their religion. or am i going to be more open minded and say it was the individuals selfious actions that led to these tradgies.

Think about it IBNKAMMUNA. You clearly have brought all these verses of the quran out of context, if you havent then bring the proof. If you think i am lying on what i say than please guide me an show me, but you will be unsuccessful in your serach to find a verse like this

# BIBLICAL DEATH PENALTY: KILL UNBELIEVERS - Acts 3:23
"And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear the prophet, shall be destroyed."

# BIBLICAL DEATH PENALTY: KILL UNBELIEVERS - 2 Chronicles 15:13 (NIV)
All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.

Deutronemy Chapter 13

13:12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
13:14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

As you can see from these above verse they were not taken out of context and it clearly says to wipe out disbelivers. But you IBNKAMMUNA cant seem to open your eyes to this but you open your eyes to verses that are out of context.

Expand your knowedge dont just listen to others. Research for yourself.

I hope to wait for your reply.

I always find it amusing when debaters use bad verses from the Bible to justify bad verses from the Quran and vice-versa.

The method of execution of apostates was not specified in the Quran. My Lesson 7 covers that topic.

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Farsideology:_Lesson_7_-_Apostates

Enjoy!
Farside

to londonspirit #9

yes, the honour killing tragedies occur in other communities too, the sikhs and hindus were no exception. HOWEVER, the sikhs and hindus do not execute this heinous act on the basis of religious commandment.

Ibnu Kammuna and Ms Marie in her post above just provide verses from quran and hadiths about the consequent effect of apostasy in islamic terminology. the problem with islam is that they emulate and apply the injunction derived from quran and sunnah when deal with apostasy issue. other religion followers are not so and they committed the cruel act solely on the basis of emotional tendency. even if there were religious influences in the despicable action executed by all the religious followers you mentioned, the best thing is to condemn all the pepertrators and advocate freedom of religion.

Humanity is but one family. :)

guys, londonspirit will always put his argument like that. he did that in many other thread comments in this website. his is blind total devotion towards islam and the unholy quran. of course most of the time his comments are nothing but stupid.

if a book is sooo perfect as acclaimed by muslims around the world, then it shoud not not have produced soooo many extremists seen today. i will the the quran is soooo stupidly imperfect as it baffled so many people along the course of history.

it belongs in the sewerage.

he also did not answer many of our questions, and he could not present any proof at all when being asked, for example in the pete rottier and ali sina debate comment. this guy is talking rubbish without any solid evidence.

This is an excellent article from Ibn Kammuna. He has proven through actual texts quotes that apostates are to be put to death according to Islamic theology.

I remember when i was a Muslim, looking at my Muslim "friends" and thinking that if i were to "quit being a Muslim" these people would not only turn their backs on me, they would consider me an enemy. What a disgusting "religion". The horror of these basic realities and falsehoods of Islam awaken Muslims to the fact that they should quietly walk out the back door and leave the sick cult of Muhammad known as Islam behind them. Seriously, who in their right mind would choose to raise their own kids in Islam?

This is news to me, I think I must not have lookeked at the verse critically when I read it. Thanks for the information, IK.
As far as Londonspirit is concerned, I feel he is still more corteous and well spoken than the many trolls who infest FFI.
I would also like to thank the admins for taking corrective measures against the troll/ trolls who were creating a nuisance on this site.

Thank you Ibn Kammuna, very much, for all your research and explanations.

I feel exploring the issue of anti-apostasy-texts, laws, customs, behavior in Islam and behavior of Muslims is a crucial issue. It is very good to get to the bottom of this. Even if LondonSpirit would be right, still in Iran in 2008 the Majlis (parliament) verified an anti-apostasy-law. Still, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan and probably many other Islamic states have these laws. Still many Muslims are so intolerant with apostates, that is obvious. And Timeflux' post reminded us that by far the most Muslims do not get into Islam in a conscious way, but because of let's say "Child indoctrination".

I am in FFI because I, like many others, perceived "bad behavior" in a part of the Muslims, perpetrated by governments, terrorists, clerical leaders, other followers. Which, yes, seemed to stem from their loyalty to Mohammed, Quran, Hadith. When a part of a part of mankind (Muslims) seems to behave badly, AND they are a very successful and powerful religion, when they are multiplying and migrating a lot into countries that on the contrary slowed down in population-growth, it is only logical that a threat/ danger is perceived.

A threat to an established way of life, to freedom. It is all explained extensively here and elsewhere. I feel you cannot blame people for perceiving a threat, real or imagined. Especially Muslims should not be angry at the mistrust of their fellow humans, but rather should address their concerns in a conscientious way.

To get to the truth of that possible threat I like it very much when we examine Islamic Holy Scriptures intensively. It is only logical that the most successful religion has to face scrutiny and opposition. So I like it so much when people like Ali Sina, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Robert Spencer etc challenge Muslims.

It is then that we encounter responses from Muslims and those culture-relativists, leftists and to be candid, many ignorant people. And this conversation is very interesting, exciting, and development-stimulating to me and I hope to many others too, both Muslims and believers of other faiths.

Hi Ibn Kammuna, this is my understanding of Quranic verses 2.217 and 4.89 ; correct me if I am wrong.

2.217- I believe, according to Muhammad, Allah is going to punish the apostates in hell-fire after death.

4.89 - There is no immediate death penalty after apostacy. Muslims should not maintain friendship with them until they (apostates) revert to Allah (ie Islam). Next statement in the surah is ambiguous because it says if the apostates turn renegades, then seize them and kill. Now the biggest question is : what is the difference between NOT reverting to Allah and turning renegade? If "NOT reverting" to Allah is same as "turning renegade" after apostacy, then the first part of the surah has no 'face value'. If 'NOT reverting' to Allah is different from 'turning renegades', then how can one be a non-Muslim (or apostate) and yet not an enemy of Islam? Elsewhere in Quran Allah says pagans and others will be rotten in hell even if they don't do any harm to Islam. You see Quran is full of logical errors.

And it even seems that a part of Muslims not only pose a threat, but also perpetrate a lot of injustice to other people, followers and others alike, especially women, so that too needs thorough investigation and discussion, I feel.

If Londonspirit believes what he says, he would in theory endorse some sort of Inter-faith-conference, resulting in a declaration, from authoritative representativers of all faiths, of Freedom of Religion everywhere, freedom to apostasize everywhere. Distancing Islam from all laws, customs, behavior etc. that forbid, discourage etc apostasy. Convincing us of Islams non-involvement is only half his job. He should also distance himself from all those who interpret Islam as FFI describes, in e-mails to these Muslims.

After all, we could argue, Islam is what Islam does. It simply does not inspire confidence in the future behavior of (a part of the) Muslims, when we observe what (a part of the) Muslims are practicing in the 57 or so countries where they have the majority and power, both in regard to what they do and to what do not do. As is so extensively described by FFI, Jihad watch and other sites.

I have just explained the verse of 4:89 bit by bit to you and i have clearly showed that it is in relation to war, when the muslims in medinah were being attacked. Thats why the verse was revealed. To give them permission to atack back. And yet you think its in regards to apostasy.

If you cant believe me than than research on your own.

FARSIDE i wasnt bring the bible into context to justify my claims. Because through careful reading i belive it has already been justified that those verses have no relation into killing apostates. I only quoted the bible because it clearly says of killing apostates and to tell IBNKAMMUNA why he has completely avoided looking at this.

KENMIRZZ honour killings are done for relgious purposes in all faiths. If it wasnt done in accordance to faith than what is the point killing them. Use your brain. Hindu farther that threw acid on her daughters face was because she wanted to marry an indian muslim. If he was a indian hindu do you think acid would have been thrown. All these honour killings are done primarily for relgion and then culture. So dont say they do it for emotional reasons, because that is totally untrue. I can tell you right now if i was to marry a sikh gal her father would defo not permit it but if i converted to sikhism than he would be more than happy so long i am a good person. I aint saying that it dont happen in muslim families. Surely it does but likewise a same number happens in chrisitan, hindu and sikh families. So dont jus be one sided and look at islam.

Each individual has been given a brain. they use it as they wish. You cannot blame relgion for their actions.

MOHAMMED i have answered all your posts. Everything in proper format and with facts to back up my claims. You have not provided any facts when you discussed a conversation with me but relied on you rown judgement.

This is to everyone. bring a clear concise verse from the quran where it says to kill an apostate. Please i aint asking much. dont bring anything out of context. Just a clear verse where it says clearly to kill the apostate.

But before you do this is what i have to say about the killing of apostates

Let us look at Noble Verse 2:217 "They ask thee (Mohammed) Concerning fighting In the Prohibited Month. Say: Fighting therein Is a grave (offence); but graver is it In the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith (Islam) and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter; they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein."

Here in this Holy Verse we see that Allah Almighty talks about those who leave Islam, and promises them punishment in the day of judgment. Allah Almighty doesn't order the death of those people.

Let also look at Noble Verse 5:54 "O ye who believe! If any from among you turn back from his faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He (Allah) will love as they will love Him lowly with the believers, Mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproachers of such as find fault. That is the Grace of Allah which He will bestow on whom He (Allah) pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things."

Here in this Holy Verse we see again Allah Almighty strengthening the faith of the Muslims in Islam by assuring them that whenever they see Muslims leaving Islam they will also see those who join Islam with strong faith and love to Allah Almighty.

Let us look at Noble Verses 15:2-3 "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)."

here we are told to leave the unfaithful alone and let them enjoy what they want to do.

So as you can see from the above verses there is no death penalty given for those who turn back from islam. The only punisment to these people is hell fire if they die not being a muslim.

iIBNKAMMUNA i would like your comments

Dear LondonSpirit, thank you for the request.
I wrote verbatim the things you objected to in my article and responded to them. I wrote in a debate form and sent to FFI. I hope they publish it soon. I am not commenting here as this takes too much time. I spent hours writing yesterday so that I can send it quick to FFI which I did. I expect it to come out as a debate between you and me in the next couple of day.
Peace brother. Humanity is but one family.

I did not know about " apostasy and the punishment for apostasy according to Islam & Qurand" before visiting this site FFI. I think many a Muslims ( by birth Muslims) don't know about this, as most of them have never read Qu'rand in their native language.

Islam prohibits Muslims to question the Mullahs who are the sole source of their knowledge of Qu'rand. That's the reason why the Mullahs of Islam and the Missionaries of Christianity can find a lot of followers among the ignorant masses.

All believers are mostly ignorant fools or are shrewed Mullahs or Missionaries: in other words shrewed politicians just like Pedo. Mo. of Islam. LOL

Belief systems like Islam and it's root Christianity are for politics only and have nothing to do with spirituality, peace or for that matter anything Humane or real religion.

As one can not know about Islam by reading only Qu'rand without reading the Hadiths . So also one can not learn about evil Islam without reading it's root the old testicles of Bible. Take it as you like Ibn Kammuna. Ha Ha Ha

Only the ignorant fools can believe, that too in some rotten books of fairy tails, (Like Qu'rand or Bible old/new testicles) or some politicians can force ( by hook or by crook) some ignorant mass to believe.

The Cultists are against freedom of thought against freedom of speech. What the cultists need are blind followers for political power only. And that's what the cults like Islam and Christianity are doing.

4. Ibn Kammuna SaysIt is only in the last 20 years or so we had Islamic scholars trying to say that Islam does not prescribe death penalty for apostasy (i.e. Ghamidi, Badawi) I do have other material to mention brother. I am at work right now, but will probably post another comment on the available evidence.

I like to share this article by : Ibrahim B. Syed, Ph. D.President Islamic Research Foundation International, Inc. 7102 W. Shefford Lane Louisville, KY 40242-6462, U.S.A.

Ridda or Irtidãd: Literally means "turning back". The act of apostasy -- leaving Islam for another religion or for a secular lifestyle.

Murtadd: Literally means "one who turns the back." An apostate. Murtad Fitri: Literally means apostate - natural. A person born of a Muslim parent who later rejects Islam. Murtad Milli: Literally means apostate - from the community. A person who converted to Islam and later rejected the religion.

Due lack of education and critical thinking several myths have taken root in the Muslim world over the ages, and there have not been any efforts in the past to clear these doubts. On the contrary, there has been a sort of effort to strengthen these myths and misconceptions. These misinterpretations of Islamic teachings have taken their toll on the Muslim world and have strengthened a misplaced perception that Islam is a symbol of obscurantism, a religion of intolerance and answers everything with the sword.

And there is no bigger misconception-strengthened with misunderstanding of Islamic beliefs over the years-other than the belief that Islam doesn't tolerate apostasy. The Christian missionaries and the Western world are cashing in on it. Ulama have tried to strengthen their point of view and several leading Muslim reformists have failed to tackle the issue. This misconception has also presented Islam as a medieval and killer religion. Islam bashers have time and again tried to carry the point by pointing out that Islam orders the killing of a person if he or she reverts to another religion from Islam.

No body is forthcoming to challenge this widely held belief as well as put forth a convincing argument about the misinterpretation of Qur'anic teachings by Ulama.

The Qur'an is completely silent on any worldly punishment for apostasy and the sole Tradition that forms the basis of rulings is open to many interpretations. Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said: `Whosoever changes his religion, Kill Him (man baddala Dinahu faqtuluhu)'". It is this last quote from the Prophet that forms the basis of the said ruling. While jurists are agreed on the authenticity of this tradition, they differ very widely on the appropriate interpretation and thus, the law concerning apostasy. Understanding the different viewpoints, and arriving at the truth is crucial to our discussion of this subject.

This tradition does not refer to Muslims who leave the religion of Islam for other religions. Finally, there is the crucial dispute over the nature of the punishment and the crime. Al-Nakha'ee and, according to Sha'rani, al-Thawri, hold that the apostate is a grave sinner who should however be continuously called back to the fold for the rest of his life, and not killed. By implication, they do not consider the offence a hadd (fixed penalty) offence with a fixed punishment that must be carried out. This view is similar to the view that apostasy is a sin that carries no fixed punishment, and any penalty for it is discretionary (ta'zeer). This is a view held by the Hanbali scholar, Ibn Taimiya and he attributes it as well to the Maliki Imam al-Baji. Among Hanafites, the jurist Shamsuddeen al-
Sarakhshi holds the same view. He says in al Mabsut that the fixed penalties or hudud are generally not suspended because of repentance, especially when they are reported and become known to the Imam. He then adds in the case of apostasy "renunciation of the faith and conversion to disbelief is admittedly the greatest of offences, yet it is a matter between man and his Creator, and its punishment is postponed to the day of Judgement. ("fa'l jaza' `alayha mu'akhkhar ila dar al-jaza").

If repentance is accepted, then apostasy is not a hadd offence with a fixed punishment. Secondly, once scholars accept that a Muslim apostate has the right to be given the opportunity to repent, they lose the right to set a time limit for his repentance.

Allah (SWT) says in the Glorious Qur'an (39: 53-54: Say: " O you servants of Mine who have transgressed against your own selves! Despair not of God's mercy. Behold God forgives all sins, for verily He is much forgiving, a dispenser of grace! Hence, turn toward your sustainer and surrender yourselves unto him before the suffering (of death and resurrection) comes upon you for then you will not be succored."

Any scholar who says the death sentence applies to leaving the faith, then the convict is to be given a life-time to repent, and this is the view of Sufyan al-Thawri, Ibrahim al-Nakha'ee, Shamsuddeen al-Sarakhshi, Imam al-Baji and, by strong implication, Ahmad Ibn Taimiya. One must conclude that the death sentence is not for "simple apostasy" (mujarrad al-ridda), but for apostasy
accompanied by treason and sedition, or by the abuse and slander (sabb) of the Noble Prophet.

Freedom to convert to or from Islam
"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance." Article 18 of the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights. The Glorious Qur'an says, "Let there be no compulsion in the religion: Surely the Right Path is clearly distinct from the crooked path." Al Baqarah, 2:256.

"Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief - Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path." Surah An-Nisa', 4:137. For example, the Qur'an says: "Let him who wishes to believe, do so; and let him who wishes to disbelieve, do so." (Al-Kahf: 29)

In another verse, Allah Almighty says: "Yours is only the duty to convey the message; you are not a guardian over them." (Al-Ghashiyah:
21- 22)

The quotation from Surah An-Nisa', 4:137, shown above, seems to imply that multiple, sequential apostasies are possible. That would not be possible if the person were executed after the first apostasy.

From the above verses it can be argued that religious freedom and the absence of compulsion in religion requires that individuals be allowed adopt a religion or to convert to another religion without legal penalty.

Hence the death penalty is not an appropriate response to apostasy.

The former Chief Justice of Pakistan, SA Rahman, has written that there is no reference to the death penalty in any of the 20 instances of apostasy mentioned in the Qur'an.

Muslims who support the death penalty for apostasy use as their foundation the above cited hadith, in which the Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said: "Kill whoever changes his religion." But this is a weak foundation because this hadith was only transmitted from Muhammad (pbuh) by one individual. It was not confirmed by a second person. According to Islamic law, this is insufficient confirmation to impose the death penalty. The Shari`ah has not fixed any punishment for apostasy.

The hadith is so generally worded that it would require the death penalty for a Christian or Jew who converted to Islam. This is obviously not the prophet's intent. The hadith is in need of further specification, which has not been documented. Many scholars interpret this passage as referring only to instances of high treason. (e.g. declaring war on Islam, Muhammad (pbuh), God, etc.).

There is no historical record, which indicates that Muhammad (pbuh) or any of his companions ever sentenced anyone to death for apostasy.

The issue of killing a murtad or the apostate is not a simple one. Scholars have debated it from various angles and it is not simply an issue of killing someone for choosing one religion or another.

The question of apostasy has been debated among scholars based on their interpretations of some hadiths since the Qur'an does not specify any worldly punishment for it. For example, there was a case at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) where a man came to him in three consecutive days and told him that he wanted to apostate. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never took any action against him, and when the man finally left Madina, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never sent anyone to arrest him, let alone kill him.

This is why some scholars distinguished between individual apostasy and apostasy which is accompanied by high treason. So, it cannot be confused with the freedom of conscience for every individual, which has been guaranteed in the Qur'an through hundreds of verses.

For example, one version of a hadith narrated by `A'isha (RA) concerning apostasy relates to one who left his religion and fought against Muslims.

QUR'ANIC VIEWS

The Qur'an has referred to the issue of apostasy at more than one place (for example see Al-Baqarah 2: 217, Al-Baqarah 2: 108, A'l Imra'n 3: 90, Al-Nisa' 4: 137 and Al-Nahl 16: 106). But at none of these places does the Qur'an mention the punishment of death for such people who change their religion. The Qur'an does mention that such people shall face a terrible punishment in the hereafter but no worldly punishment is mentioned at any of these instances in the Qur'an. This situation obviously raises a question mark in the mind of the reader that if Allah had wanted to give the punishment of an apostate a permanent position in the Shari`ah, the punishment should have been mentioned, at least at one of the above mentioned places. If the Qur'an had kept completely silent about the apostate, the matter would have been different. But the strange thing is that the Qur'an mentions apostasy, and still does not mention the punishment
(if any) it wants the apostate to be subjected to.

Furthermore, the Qur'an has strictly disallowed the imposition of the death penalty except in two specific cases. One of them is where the person is guilty of murdering another person and the other is where a person is guilty of creating unrest in the country (fasa'd fil-ardh) like being involved in activities that create unrest in a society, for example activities like terrorism etc. The Qur'an says:

Whoever kills a person without his being guilty of murder or of creating unrest in the land, is as though he kills the whole of mankind. (Al-Ma'idah, 5: 32)

Obviously, apostasy can neither be termed as "murder" nor "creating unrest in the land".

Thus, in view of the above facts, we are left with one option only. We can only say that either the saying has been wrongly ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh), as it is clearly contradictory to the Qur'an and the Prophet could not have said anything contradictory to the Qur'an, or that the saying ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) relates not to allApostates but to a particular and specific people.

Shaykh Subhani

Shaykh Inayatullah Subhani (author of the Book Apostasy doesn't carry death penalty in Islam) says that neither Islam forces any person to embrace neither Islam nor it forces him to remain within its fold. He writes, "Apostasy has been mentioned several times in Qur'an. It also describes the bad treatment that will be meted out for committing apostasy, but it never talks of punishment for the crime in this world." The learned scholar mentions three Ayaat (verses) from Qur'an on apostasy (Al-Baqara 217, Muhammad 25-27 and Al-Maida 54) and then says that none of these Ayaat prescribes any punishment for that though these Ayaat pass strictures on the people who commit it. There are several other Ayaat on the same issue and none of them prescribes either death penalty or any other punishment for apostasy in this world. He then adds that had there been some punishment in Islam for apostasy there was no reason as to why the issue was mentioned repeatedly in Qur'an but no punishment was prescribed.

Misinterpretation of the hadith, Man baddala Dinahu faqtuluh (kill him who changes his religion) has caused the problem. This order has been made to look general and permanent, though it was said in a particular circumstance for a particular group. Shaykh Subhani writes that this order was made to counter a scheme prepared by Jews of Madinah. They had planned that some of them embrace Islam for some time and then return to their old religion. Then some other people do the same. It was aimed to create restlessness among Muslims against their own leadership so that the strong Muslim unity should start crumbling. It was made clear in Qur'an in (Aal Imran, 3: 72-73).

To counter this planning the Prophet (SAW) ordered his companions to act in such a manner. Despite this order lengthy investigations were made to ascertain that the case was true and the person concerned was given adequate time to explain before the punishment was carried out.

Shaykh Subhani says lack of clear grasp of Qur'an misguided even leading Ulama. Otherwise it was not difficult to understand the hadith. Qur'anic teachings on the issue were not kept in mind.

He emphasizes that people who were awarded death penalty for reverting to other religions from Islam during the time of the Prophet (SAW) or during the reign of his caliphs were not given the punishment for the crime of apostasy but for the fact that they were at war with Muslims and Islamic government.

Shaykh Subhani regrets that punishment that was prescribed for certain people under special circumstances was made to look like a general order. He says that it was the order for people who posed threat to Islamic state and became at war with Islam and not for any person who reverts to other religion.

A number of Islamic scholars from past centuries, Ibrahim al-Naka'I, Sufyan al-Thawri, Shams al-Din al-Sarakhsi, Abul Walid al-Baji and Ibn Taymiyyah, have all held that apostasy is a serious sin, but not one that requires the death penalty. In modern times, Mahmud Shaltut, Sheikh of al-Azhar, and Dr Mohammed Sayed Tantawi have concurred.

In conclusion, we must never confuse the issue of killing a murtad with the freedom of conscience guaranteed in the Glorious Qur'an. For a detailed discussion, one should read (1) the Dr. Yusuf Al- Qaradawi's book on this issue: Jareemat ar-riddah wal murtadd (The Crime of Apostasy and Apostate) - published by Ar-Risalah foundation.

(2) Apostasy doesn't carry death penalty in Islam (Book: Tabdili-e- Mazhab aur Islam) by Maulana Inayatullah Asad Subhani)-published by Idara Ihya-e-Deen, Bilariya Ganj, Azamgarh (UP, India) Pages: 108, Price Rs 30.

REFERENCES

1. http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_apos.htm
2. "Islam, Apostasy and PAS," 1999-JUL-22, at:
http://www.muslimtents.com/sistersinislam/

3. S.A. Rahman, "Punishment of apostasy in Islam," Kazi Publ.,

NURULHUDA you dont have to go to extreme lengths to explain whether islam permits the death sentance or not if someone becomes an apostate. This is because the three verses that IBNKAMMUNA relates to has nothing to do with killing someone who leaves islam. I am still waiting for a rebuttal from him in regards to what i said. But nothing so far. I will just wait and see what he has to say

LondonSpirit, my reply is in the debate i sent to FFI. it should be published in the next few days (I hope).
Nurulhuda, thanks brother. I take that back its not only in the last twenty years..its more than that. As for the rest of your article..people can debate anything...for your information, all 4 schools of Jurisprudence in Islam prescribe killing apostates. Such an agreement between all 4 schools does not come from a vacuum in the Qur'an and hadith. Trying to make evil look nicer is the specialty of people like you guys. ALL 4 Schools in Islam man prescribe killing apostates. How much more evidence you folks want?...
LondonSpirit, please be patient brother. I am sure our debate will be published soon.
Peace

mohammad wrote:

he also did not answer many of our questions, and he could not present any proof at all when being asked, for example in the pete rottier and ali sina debate comment. this guy is talking rubbish without any solid evidence.

Agree.

Just accepting FFI's view on everything is no good I feel. And LondonSpirit is at times a fenomenal opponent, who I admit confounds me sometimes.

But Ibn Kammuna's + Maries posts showed on scrutiny tiny differences with LS' translations. And Ibn Kammuna's comments about all 4 major schools of Islam advocating death penalty reassured me. But even if LS were right, then still Timeflux' argument about common practices among self-confessed muslims carries much weight for me.

I too see a danger, thank you Pathfinder for confirming and clarifying it, as many articles and posts here do. Living among Muslims, Culture-relativists and plain ignorants (albeit because of lack of concern, interest) makes me often feel " Islamophobic".

But I like to say to Muslims: We are concerned about Islam and the practices and intentions of some of its followers, but if Islam makes you happy, well, there are worse ways to live, so stay in it then. But:

If you love your parents/ family and are loyal to them, let that not be your reason to be loyal to their religion. And do not oblige your children to follow your religion, because:

- We think that there are better ways of life than Islam too.
- We think that now there is reasonable doubt that Muhammad's words really came from Allah. This goes for truthfulness of Islam.
- As for usefulness; we think that there were in mankind's history so many wise, loving leaders, writers, so many wise books written. There is no objection to reading many of them and collecting and using the best you can find. So maybe you might consider other guidance than Islams.

Demsci wrote:

But Ibn Kammuna’s + Maries posts showed on scrutiny tiny differences with LS’ translations. And Ibn Kammuna’s comments about all 4 major schools of Islam advocating death penalty reassured me. But even if LS were right, then still Timeflux’ argument about common practices among self-confessed muslims carries much weight for me.

That's because Ibn Kammuna is translating Quranic sources from Arabic and the Quran I used was N.J. Dawood's The Koran.I also have Yusuf Ali version and both versions have slight differences from each other and in Ali version certain things the prophet said have been omitted for some reason. Dawood who is a Christian from Iraq is more accurate then Ali and contains full translation of the Quran. Hmmm I wonder why.

[...] a previous article I published about apostasy in Islam, it was clear to me that the Islamic punishment for apostates [...]

32. londonspirit Says: NURULHUDA you dont have to go to extreme lengths to explain whether islam permits the death sentance or not if someone becomes an apostate.

Im not trying to explain anything to anybody. I got that while trying to search for an answer because another young apostate ask me the same question : abt killing of apostate and his fears etc..... I post here to share that is all.

To me I care less. So what if the Quran say kill the apostate and so what if the Quran did not say to kill.. the point is Apostate are being hang ... you see it in Iran, you see it in pakistan and other muslim country. IN Malaysia they throw them in Jail. Such gross act of injustice to humanity in the name of freedom is being committed. Why? yes ! its human mistake... all comes to the interpretation of the Quran. The same when they kill thousand of wise woman and brand them as "witches" and burn them on the stake.....its take many centuries later for the Pope to admit they have made a mistake and to say sorry.....for what? just imagine the innocent life being killed because of human ignorant. The same will happen in the muslim world........where injustice done to the apostate. So what do people like yourself LondonSpirit going to do about it. If you know its not in the quran.....and you know its wrong. What are you doing about it? You just stand and watch........as these people being hang?

33. Ibn Kammuna Says: [1] Trying to make evil look nicer is the specialty of people like you guys. ALL 4 Schools in Islam man prescribe killing apostates. How much more evidence you folks want?…

I am not trying to make any evil look good. I am an apostate too if you are now aware of it. I came become one not because of Ali Sinna [ as one said : Sina Zombie] Like I said, I care less about the Quran ... weather they say to kill or not to kill, the point is gross injustice have been committed on the innocent... and what can we do about it. Those people too justified their action through the Quran......so?.. The muslims come here posted verses and verse from the bible to say : Bible too is bad.....also prescribe Killing of apostate. So what? that is my respond. Both are bad book....and that is what they are......just book? Can we go beyond the books.......instead of getting ourselves stuck with it.

[2] I take that back its not only in the last twenty years..its more than that.

Precisely.....what is happening here : changes is taking place....before none suddenly scholars are coming out and voice their concern in seeing practices that are disturbing. I've said it many time in my other messages.....changes are taking place. Islam too is undergoing change.. weather they like it or not Islam must change in order for them to survive. Its far fetch to say we must eliminate islam... is it possible, my answer yes and no.

If Islam is a disease, we need to get an antidote to neutralise it, we the apostate are the antidote because we know what is happening and what we can do to stop it. We are the new force the Muslim have to deal with.

Are we able eradicate all the disease from this planet earth? No we can't......old disease are coming back more virulent than ever... Just when we thought we have able to overcome HIV, another virus emerge more virulent than ever. So what are we doing about it, to prepare ourselves when newer virus emerging.....can we counter act it?

Hmm, hadiths are hot potatoes?
For koran only muslims

I don't know much about Evil Islam and apostasy but the following link tells ---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Qur.27anic_reference

I don't know if the above link is telling the truth.

While the intellectual discussion is interesting, it would seem to me that the proof is in the pudding:

Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda‎) is commonly defined as the rejection in word or deed of their former religion (apostasy) by a person who was previously a follower of Islam.

The four major Sunni Madh'hab (schools of Islamic jurisprudence) all agree that apostasy is the gravest sin in Islam and require the application of the death penalty as long as the individual does not do so in ignorance or under duress, except for tha Hanafi school which regards women to be exempt[1][2]. They also differentiate between harmful apostasy and harmless apostasy[3] (also known as major and minor apostasy)[4]. According to Wael Hallaq nothing of the apostasy law is derived from the Qur'an,[5] although the jurist al-Shafi'i interpreted the Qu'ranic verse 2:217 as providing the main evidence for apostasy being a capital crime in Islam.[6]

Wikipedia

Death is prescibed by Sharia law.

[...] Internet source: http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/06/11/apostasy-in-islam/ [...]

[...] Internet source: http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/06/11/apostasy-in-islam/ [...]

Ibn Kammuna

let me start by sincerely thanking you for writing such an article because at the end of the day many people are simply searching for the truth and when a matter is brought up, people can follow up on the matter and come to their own conclusion based on facts.

You started out by saying that you will use the Hadith and Quran to prove that the punishment for apostasy is death, after londonspirit and nurulhuda I believe proved otherwise, one thing you said was

"...ALL 4 Schools in Islam man prescribe killing apostates. How much more evidence you folks want?…"

by this you were simply trying to give the impression who cares what the Quran says, there is ample other evidence in Islam( such as the 4 Islamic schools) that apostasy is punishable by death

Now all moslems regard the Quran to be infallible and everything else to be fallible, you perhaps have proved your point by using material that is fallible whereas it cannot be said you have been successful in using the infallible material (Quran) to prove your point, which from a moslem point of view is the more important thing to do.

Have a look at these two verses in the Quran, it is clear cut that there is no punishment for them even if they increase in their disbelief.

Let there be no compulsion in the religion: Surely the Right Path is clearly distinct from the crooked path.” Al Baqarah, 2:256.

Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief – Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path.” Surah An-Nisa’, 4:137

My advice to you would be that when you try to prove a point by using the Quran make sure the verses you use back up your point 100 per cent, the verse in Quran Surah An-Nisa’, 4:137 proves beyond reasonable doubt that there is no punishment for apostasy.

This is a recent situation of two Iranian women that are persecuted because they became Christians.

http://freemaryamandmarzieh.agazilos.org/2009/09/02/be-a-muslim-again-or...

There is nothing to be proved for the true nature of Islam. Islamists themselves by their actions show what they believe.

And if any Muslim thinks that these women are persecuted because Iran is run by Shia, let's not forget Fatima al-Mutairi who was murdered in Saudi Arabia by a Sunni:

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/saudi-arabia/saudi-man-kills-daughter-for-...