Is Belief in God Morally Imperative?
Submitted by Ali Sina on Mon, 05/18/2009 - 06:26
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When I say that belief in God is a moral issue more than an intellectual one, my understanding can be described in the following way:
Man has an inherent moral virtue of being grateful to his benefactors. We are grateful to our parents, teachers, relatives, friends etc for what they have done for us. This inner inclination to thank and pay back to those who have helped us is universally shared so strongly that those who go against its verdict are considered ungrateful, immoral people.
If the above-mentioned premise is valid, then it should proceed from it that the one who is responsible for conferring upon us all the blessings that we enjoy, including giving us the company of the people who deserve our grateful behaviour, should be the focus of our best emotions of gratitude. I concede that, to begin with, one might ask as to why should one thank Him if there were good reasons to believe that He doesn’t exist? The intellectual thought would indeed pose a challenge to the moral impulse in man, but the latter impulse would incline him to search for the right answer far more eagerly than he would do for a question whose answer he is seeking simply for intellectual curiosity. The earnestness in the quest for God should at least be the equivalent of the eagerness of a man who is tracing his parents about whom he is not sure if they were alive or not. My question is: Have the agnostics and the atheists explored enough to claim that they haven’t found anyone who was ultimately responsible for all the blessings they enjoy? Have they earnestly prayed to Him, even without formally believing in Him, as I did? If they would say that they did and yet didn’t get any response, I would say that, at best, I am seriously puzzled because my experience has been very different. When I prayed to Him, even when I thought that I didn’t formally believe in Him, His response was overwhelming. Why aren’t these others going through the same experience in response to the same behaviour? I am honestly baffled!
The fear factor can only be a starting point for believing in God. It is a very superficial reason to believe in Him over a long time. In fact, it is no reason to believe in Him. I would suggest that it is better not to believe in God than to believe in Him for fear of His probable appearance. I don’t believe in a God who should be feared like we fear a deadly monster. I believe in a loving and caring God, who more significantly, responds to my prayers. And I am dead sure that He does. But I am no one to accuse others of not trying enough or not praying to Him sincerely. That’s why I say that I am simply puzzled. What loss would occur to those who haven’t found God if they were to pray to Him in sincere earnestness?
However, for the prayer to cause connection with God, there should be one condition satisfied: One should submit oneself humbly before Him. You might say that it’s a funny proposal for someone who doesn’t even believe in Him to humble himself before God. I would respond by saying that when we feel morally obliged to be grateful to the source that arranged for us all that we have in this life, when we find that there were reasons to believe that He exists (even if there were other reasons that lead to a contrary conclusion), and when our vulnerability causes us to be fearful for our existence, could there be a better response from us than to be humble ourselves before Him (or His supposed existence) and see what happens?
I have a feeling that the intellectual arguments of the agnostics and atheists deprive them of that all important feeling of humbleness that inspires one to look earnestly for God. But I can be wrong.
Quite often, I have observed people who claim not to believe in God deriding religion, religious people, and the concept of God. There is often a rejection of the religious concepts with disdainful sarcasm. There is a clear sense of intellectual superiority one can smell from the kind of remarks that one hears. Richard Dawkins has made strong claims in his book on the basis of scientific studies that the more intelligent a person, the more likely it is that he is going to be an atheist. My point is that what they consider to be their strength (intellect) may actually be causing their downfall by making them feel superior and thus causing them to be arrogant and therefore not humble.
Both gratefulness and humbleness are desirable virtues. Both ungratefulness and haughtiness are immoral tendencies. The one pair of attributes leads to God. The other takes away from God. That is why I am of the opinion that belief in God belongs primarily to the domain of morality; the intellectual aspect of it is much less significant than is often realized.
I am not saying that religious people can’t be arrogant. Some of them are immensely arrogant. Nor am I claiming that all atheists are arrogant. Some of them are genuinely down-to-earth. While arrogant religiosity will find no place in the mercy of God, humble atheism will, hopefully, give way to true belief in Him.
Khalid Zaheer
Dear Khalid,
___________-
From: Ali Sina
Dear Dr. Zaheer,
It’s always a pleasure to hear from you. I suppose by sending this article to me you expect me to respond. I will do my best.
Your arguments make sense, until one discovers that they are based on a series of logical fallacies. In other words, you have erected a pretty edifice, but on no foundation. Now watch as I blow at it to make it fall.
First you compare God to our parents and say that as good children we should seek our parents, even if we don’t know whether they are alive or dead to show our gratitude to them.
This is a wrong comparison. Our parents are real while God is imaginary and faith based. Is there any evidence that we have an intelligent maker other than the laws of the nature? Until you have not proven that, you are engaging in the fallacy of Begging the Question.
Begging the Question is a fallacy in which the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true. This sort of "reasoning" typically has the following form.
- Premises in which the truth of the conclusion is claimed or the truth of the conclusion is assumed (either directly or indirectly).
- Claim C (the conclusion) is true.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because simply assuming that the conclusion is true (directly or indirectly) in the premises does not constitute evidence for that conclusion. Obviously, simply assuming a claim is true does not serve as evidence for that claim. This is especially clear in particularly blatant cases: "X is true. The evidence for this claim is that X is true."
Some cases of question begging are fairly blatant, while others can be extremely subtle.
Examples of Begging the Question
- Bill: "God must exist."
Jill: "How do you know."
Bill: "Because the Bible says so."
Jill: "Why should I believe the Bible?"
Bill: "Because the Bible was written by God." - "If such actions were not illegal, then they would not be prohibited by the law."
- "The belief in God is universal. After all, everyone believes in God."
- Interviewer: "Your resume looks impressive but I need another reference."
Bill: "Jill can give me a good reference."
Interviewer: "Good. But how do I know that Jill is trustworthy?"
Bill: "Certainly. I can vouch for her."
As you see, your premise is wrong. Therefore, your conclusion is wrong. You took for granted that God is the creator and the provider and therefore you concluded that we should be grateful to him. However, you failed to provide any evidence to support your premise.
The other error of this comparison is that our parents are humans. They sacrifice and give us everything they have while we are helpless, until we grow and become strong. By then, they are old and frail. It is then morally imperative for us to return the favor and take care of them until they are alive. Assuming there is a God that made us, he is allegedly all powerful. Why would he need our help or even our gratitude? If he is God, it would make no difference to him whether we praise him or not. So why would he punish those who don’t thank him?
Suppose there is a rich man who decides to be generous. He goes to the street and distributes money to anyone he sees. People take the money and thank him but some don’t thank. What would you say of this generous person if he then goes after those who did not thank him, to beats them up and torture them? Would you consider such a person worthy of praise? We humans are told, that the best form of generosity is the one done anonymously and without expecting any reward and recognition. Are you saying that this god of yours cannot live even up to human standard? That he is so desperate to be thanked that he would torture people in the most excruciating way for eternity if they do not thank him? If you expect reward, your generosity is self serving. And yet the Quran is full of warning for those who do not thank Allah and his messenger. Are you sure that Muhammad did not make up the whole thing so he could be worshipped as proxy of his invisible god? Allah is a narcissist because he is the wet dream of Muhammad. Allah is what the narcissist Muhammad wanted to become. He is a figment of the sick mind of that crazy Arab.
The truth is that there is no manna falling from the sky. We have to work hard to earn our living. If we don’t, God will not take care of us. Many people actually die of starvation and there is no god coming to their rescue. We humans take better care of our pets than God takes care of us and yet we do not expect our pets to thank us nor do we torture them if they don’t wag their tails after we feed them. Whereas Muhammad’s god will burn the disbelievers and then will make them grow new skin to burn them again ad infinitum. Does such a sadist god deserve praise? Assuming that God exists isn’t what Muhammad attributed to him blasphemy? If God exists and if he has a hell I can assure you that Muhammad is burning in the lowest pit of that hell for attributing insanity to God.
Another fallacy in your argument is when you express your bewilderment that why when God responded to your prayer overwhelmingly, the rest of us claim to not have heard any response for our prayers.
This is subjective reasoning. Assuming you witness a miracle, why should I believe you? Why should I trust you? Maybe you were hallucinating? Why God does not show his miracles to me? Should I rely on my own intelligence or on the claims of every Tom, Dick and Harry? And why would God punish me for not believing in a miracle that I never witnessed?
Let us say you are desperate for money and you buy a lottery ticket, pray to God and you win. You then conclude that God answered your prayer. Is this a logical conclusion? What you forget is that millions of others also played that lottery, many of them were also needy and they prayed but they did not win. In fact a few years ago in Canada a couple of drug dealers with many crimes under their belt won a large lottery prize. Did God have anything to do with that? Meanwhile there are millions of children who don’t get enough food.
How many times we hear people who are saved in a disaster in which thousands were perished say, “it was a miracle of God that I am saved?” Why God did not perform his miracle on those thousands who perished?
You say that you do not believe in a God of fear, but a God that answers your prayers. There is no proof that God answers prayers. Religious people say that God answers only the prayers that he wants to answer. In that case why pray at all? God will do what he thinks is right anyway. Why ask from God things that may not be good for us? And why pray for things that he would give us anyway?
Religious people say sometimes the answer of God to our prayer is “yes,” sometimes it is “no,” and sometimes it is “wait.” But if you pray to a chair the result will not be any different. Your prayers will either be answered, or they will not be answered or they may be answered later. The argument that God answers prayers is nothing but a fallacy. A chair can do the same thing.
Furthermore, if you do not believe in a God that is based on fear then you have to change your religion because Islam is entirely based on fear of God. Maybe you’ll find Hinduism or Christianity more to your liking. In the Quran Muhammad talks about nothing but fear, punishment, torment in the grave, hell, Day of Judgment. How do you then reconcile your idealistic view of Allah with how Muhammad depicted this fearsome deity? Your god is better than Muhammad’s god because you are a better person than him. Our gods are figments of our imaginations. The problem is that when good people start believing in a demonic deity like that of Muhammad, they too become demonic.
Then there is another fallacy in your argument. You say that to believe in God one condition must be satisfied and that is, “One should submit oneself humbly before Him.”
This is the psychological trick that religious people play. It is the same fallacy of Begging the Question. You are asking us to believe before the evidence is given. But once we believe the evidence becomes superfluous. So you become vulnerable to believe in any lie. There are many false faiths and the followers of all those faiths have used this very methodology to arrive at what they believe. They have taken the leap of faith and have stopped questioning. But surely many of these beliefs are not good beliefs. Some of them are dangerous and evil. So it is extremely unwise to believe until all the evidence is provided.
In my book ‘Understanding Muhammad,’ I gave several examples of cults that brought death on their followers. Those victims followed your prescription. At one point they stopped questioning and decided to take the leap of faith. The result was catastrophic. My advice is that any faith that asks you to believe before providing all the evidence should be avoided. If a belief cannot provide enough evidence that belief is false.
What has been the result of believing in Islam? Many millions of people were massacred and continue to be butchered because Muslims have taken the leap of faith and have accepted Islam without asking for evidence. All the evidences they provide are subjective. But there is no objective evidence. My $50,000 prize has remained unclaimed for seven years. All I am asking for is one objective, irrefutable and solid evidence to support the claim of Muhammad. Not a single person has been able to provide that. Muslims believe without any evidence.
Now this would not be such a big thing if they kept their faith to themselves. Virtually the followers of none of the faiths can provide objective evidence to support their faith. However, Muslims are required to fight and spread Islam by force. This is why this religion is dangerous. Many religions are logically false, but they are not evil. Islam is not only false but also evil. This is what distinguishes Islam from other faiths.
Since I do not believe in God, I do not believe in Christianity, but when I look at the deeds and words of Jesus I cannot but bow my head in reverence. My personal view is that Jesus is 90% mythology and 10% a historic person. However, assuming Jesus existed and everything that is said about him in the New Testament is true, he was an exceptionally holy man. Jesus, as described in the NT, is above any normal human standard. His goodness, his wisdom at such a young age, his vision, are all super human. His teachings are all ethical and good. So what if he is a myth? He is a good myth.
On the other hand, Muhammad is evil in every sense of the word. This man was the embodiment of everything that is demonic. He was a pedophile, a terrorist, a rapist, a thief, a mass murderer, a deceiver. Muhammad was a criminal. Muslims justify all his crimes because they assume that he was a prophet of God. Now assume for a second that he was not a prophet. Don’t his actions make him the worst creature? Let us assume that Jesus also was not a prophet. Wouldn’t he be the best man ever lived on earth?
I have nothing against the belief in God. I also do not believe that atheism is any better than believing in God. As a matter of fact believers are proven to live longer and are happier. Also atheists can be just as bigoted and close minded as religious people. Do you know that some of the moderators of Richard Dawkins forum have denounced me on the ground that I am not denouncing all faiths and defend freedom of belief? Yes, that is true. These people have maligned me, even though I am an atheist, because I am not as vicious as they are in attacking all faiths. Fanaticism is an attitude. You can be an atheist and a fanatic. Most of the crimes of the last century were perpetrated by atheists. So atheism does not make you a better person.
God makes no logical sense. But it is okay to believe in God. It is okay to believe in anything you wish. However, don’t try to force your belief on me. This is the problem with Islam. Islam is the only religion whose prophet orders his followers to wage war on non believers and force them into submission. That is why Islam is the only evil faith. You cannot escape this truth. It’s all over the Quran. The Muslim terrorists are following the teachings of Muhammad.
In your short essay, there were many logical fallacies. But the most important one is the fallacy of Questionable Cause. Muslims think that once they prove the existence of God the truth of Islam is automatically proven. This is a false reasoning. Assuming that God exists and he is the one who created the world and has sent all the prophets including Moses and Jesus, where is the proof that Muhammad was also His prophet? There is not a shred of evidence that Islam is a religion of God. In fact there is plenty of evidence that the author of the NT and the author of the Quran are not the same. The teachings of these two books are diametrically opposite. To believe that the Bible and the Quran are both the words of the same god, one has to attribute schizophrenia to God.
Then you accuse agonistics and atheists of arrogance and lack of humility. This is ad hominem. I believe the reverse is true. We are given a brain to use it. Humility is in accepting the facts. Arrogance is in denying them. It is the believers who reject the facts and believe without evidence. 2 +2 = 4. This is a fact. If you accept any other conclusion other than the fact, relying on faith, you are arrogant.
I want the readers to pay attention to how the believers twist everything and resort to all sorts of logical fallacies in order to defend their false belief. It is not arrogant to ask for proof. It is arrogant to believe in any absurdity without asking for proof.
Who do you think is more arrogant? The Taliban and the al Qaida terrorists who uncritically accept any nonsense because it is found in a book that they believe with no evidence, or Richard Dawkins, Steven Hawking and Carl Sagan who refuse to believe in any gobbledygook without evidence? Those terrorists humbly accept lies while these scientists, humbly accept facts? Which is more ethical and moral?
Belief in falsehood is not moral. It’s just foolish and being foolish is not a moral thing.
Great Work....Dear
Great Work....Dear Ali...
hope this time Mr Khalid Zaheer will come wid new things
God Bless you all
God, belief, religion,
God, belief, religion, spiritualism are all relative terms.
One is morally compelled to do good to all others but intellectually not obliged to do so to all.
Belief in god is a moral obligation to a few but is not necessarily intellectual compulsion to all. Its a fallacy to believe that one is more likely to be a bad individual just because he/she does not subscribe to Qrand or bible! Infact one is more likely to be evil when he /she blindly believes in what the evil twain qrand and bible say and follow
Dear Ali Sina your rebuttle
Dear Ali Sina your rebuttle was exceptionally fascinating. I really loved the way you correctly understood what was going in the mind of Mr Zaheer when he wrote that type of article. At first you could have been tricked that Mr. Zaheer is a christian for this line of reasoning that Mr. Zaheer used is typical of christian apologists - but it doesn't take to be a genious to realize that islam by it very nature loves to hijack the principles of other faiths or civilizations.
Whatever you may believe in,
Whatever you may believe in, but just let a loving/compassionate heart be your moral compass. Just be a good human being.
Trying/forcing others to conform to a set of belief and if they don't, terming them as "unbelievers" is a cultist mentality of us verses them.
#4 the term unbeliever is
#4 the term unbeliever is factual. Killing unbelievers is immoral. I dont believe in murder so I am an unbeliever in murder. The term is true. The us vs them comes in vogue when it is taught as a mean of extermination, like Hitler and the Jews, Muhammad vs the Jews. KILL< KILL< KILL is the extreme form of insanity.
Belief in God is not imperative as the Bible said it was not. God of the Bible said choose. Christians were never told to force people to accept the gospel. christians were told if they didnt want the gospel, shake the dust off of your feet and move on.
OT Jews fought for survival not to force the Mosaic Law on others.
The moral imperative come from God not atheism or marxism. Moral thinking comes from the belief that life begin at conception. Islam and atheism says no.
The 1st trimester is not really life so you can kill it. If there is no life in the 1st 3 months how can there be life afterwards?
javed ahmad ghamidi and
javed ahmad ghamidi and khalid zaheer are the last hope for pakistan. i respect them a lot for promoting freedom to speak. and i was shocked to see the TV program "Ghamidi" in which there were two boys and one girl questioning against ghamidi regarding the existence of God and Ghamidi's main argument was " wajdan" that means i can feel the existence of God which was disapproved by the opponent saying that "but i can never be able to feel God".
that was a great program. similarly Ghamidi did a program on evolution in which again Ghamidi was on the weaker side the evolution supporters were winning in the arguments. i think this kind of programs will help a lot in bringing a tolerant society which will slowly cause demise of islam.
yea i pretty much agree with
yea i pretty much agree with this zaheer guy, since i can say my self religious,
i thought i heard someone that just reading NT talking, but i think this guy had 'probing Islam' debated with sina,
i belive god create/make us to rule over the world, thats why animal still animal, they havent got congregasion with their own language, there are some intellegent animal but thats about it, i think, lot of evolution unanswered question, like why dont crocodile have walk yet if they been exposed to land for so long, the only ones walk is one with tail at the front:), and dragonfly, start their life as small fish(i think)
so im sure the one who create us, wants us to acknowledge its being, pretty much like parents, may be they cannot say anything if you refuse to look after them, but they will be happy knowing their own children care when they old, its hard to give proof, since religion is somthing in your spirits and hearts.
but then again, how come some one who can talk as mr.zaheer, belive in mohamad's crazy god
The moral and morality
The moral and morality compass are not absolute entities! The values attached to any thing ( words or deeds) need not be either totally immoral or completely moral for all people and for all times to come.
For example.
Sleeping with daughter in law is a repiugnant act of immorality for many races of human beings.But for moslems it's a perfectly moral pious act as the way forward shown to the moslems for all time to come, by their rapist prophet
Killing an innocent human being is morally unjustifiable, but for moslems it's perfectly moral and pious to kill another human being in the name of that pimp allah.
Sex with a prepubescent girl is an immoral repugnant act for many human races, but for moslems its a pious act!
Thighing an infant morally ok for moslems.
To stroll around naked in designated areas on beach etc is morally ok for a french woman( I like that way though, moral or immoral is another matter! I like french cuties), but for a moslem its immoral.
Since there is no absolute moral compass, indicative of absolute guide lines applicable to all people of all times, moral compulsion to believe in GOD is irrelevant.
Intellectual need/compulsion to believe in some GOD is reliant on the intellectual capabilities of the individual concerned.If there idiots who believe that the earth has 4 corners, they need god to guide them at each level of morality. As we have clearly seen the motrality of people eating the pig and cows along with the rectal contents!
Its meaningless to think that those who do not believe in god have lesser morals than those who do so!
We have seen the perfect examples in the believers of evil twain and their moral compass, that perfectly allows them to loot,rape,kill and enslave wtih out any conscience or moral hesitation
#8 you should try some
#8 you should try some chitterlings and hog maws. They taste goooooood. Put a little hot sauce and side it with cold slaw and potatoe salad or collard green and cornbread. wow makes you want to smack your mama. We have to kill the vegetables by cutting them down and cooking them, then cutting up the cabbage. Now some people dont like to kill the vegetables! Well cant please everyone so I will offend everyone. Amen!
#8 Cows are now causing
#8 Cows are now causing global warming by passing gas into the atmosphere. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. The Darwinist and Marxist all are into Global warming and the cows are to blame too. The HOLY COWS! cant pass gas anymore. feed them gassless grass. See how insanity rules.
It is they the unintellegent,
It is they the unintellegent, deaf, dumb, the greedy, the cruel, the miser, the rapist, the pedophile, the looter, the plunderer, the killers and above all those who profess "our God is true God, your God is false, our scripture is the true, your scriptures are bogus" that seek God outside themselves either to propitiate Him, ask for favors and forgiveness for ORIGINAL SINS!!!
Those who know or believe God is all-in-all and everything else is secondary knows The Truth and as result live a humble life; their motive being "live and let live" and all paths lead to same God". But unfortunately the latter group, being not interested in proselytising, is being persecured around the world by the followers of these two ONE TRUE GOD.
#7. ibnsahr Says: so im sure
#7. ibnsahr Says: so im sure the one who create us, wants us to acknowledge its being, pretty much like parents
Sir, if everything is created by the "creator", who created the "creator"? Where does this cycle (circular reasoning) end?
I feel that FFI should
I feel that FFI should introduce a moderating policy according to which dimwits and stupid folks should be stopped from posting at all.
I mean its good to believe in Freedom of though and expression, but when certain posting lake the overall level of the debate below certain standards, something urgent needs to be done.
This is the reason why I have stopped posting all together on this Forum.
I really miss those days when people would have fruitful, intellectual, though inspiring debates on this Forum. It was by reading these deabtes that I realised how stupid and intolerant Islam is and perhaps these debates were the reason why I decided to apostize from Islam.
Sadly those deabters have diappeared giving way to a new generation of fools who cannot distinguigh between their hands and their feet. I wonder if these debates, would inspire even a single Muslim to rethink his religion.
I really miss the good old days! Sigh! :(
#11 Those humble livers still
#11 Those humble livers still have Untouchables who have lived unsavory lives for 4000 yrs. What makes you so much better than Muslims or Christendom.
Hindus cannot proseltize because of the infamous caste system. What caste will you put them in. That is the REAL reason for this. Can the Pope be a Brahmin if he accept Hinduism? As a Black person will I be pass the untouchables? All questions to be answered. Islam says they are the true religion yet kills everyone everywhere. If I believe god was so cruel i would never even write the word god.
Thanks Ibrahim for your
Thanks Ibrahim for your thoughts.Dont despair!
I would rather not have moslems revert to the original sin the bible! The original stupidity was bible and the fools copied from the bible and made a horrible job of it!
The first question in rig veda is who created the creator? was the creator swaym bhu? self created? He desired and so he was! May be who knows, only the creator, perhaps even he may not.Rig veda!
5. Raisin Head Says: the term
5. Raisin Head Says: the term unbeliever is factual.
These things are very hard for a person of cult to comprehend. Enjoy your cult
The things which you keep repeating ad nauseum have been refuted many times (with proof.)
Those verses of slavery and rape, plunder, killing of sucklings will remain bad, no amount of sugar coating can change that.
"Shake the dust of your feet and move on.. their fate will be worse than.......".,
Hope you complete that one for me or should I?
#13 your comments were
#13 your comments were directed at me. I miss the good old days before 9-11, I unfortunately cannot have it. If you are angry because I exposed the evils of Hinduism and not just Christendom and Islam, tough. The truth must get out before there is a Hindu 9-11. After 4000 years you still have the inhumane system and condemn others for exposing it. Most Americans could care less but NOW we KNOW that it was Hinduism before islam with the allahs and many gods Mo hated. It was the Persian/Iran Zoroastarians many gods and hellfire doctrine prior to the Greeks. History is great and if the truth hurts amen. Not one of you has condemned the caste so apparently you agree. Not one has condemned the Untouchables life, apparently you agree. Not one has said Blacks are beautiful, yet i praise you highly. I think Black is beautiful and i think America is beautiful. Many run to America for freedom then try to restart the same system they left from e.g Islam.
# 13. ibrahim Says: " I
# 13. ibrahim Says:
" I feel that FFI should introduce a moderating policy according to which dimwits and stupid folks should be stopped from posting at all."
You should feel free to name a few. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Best example -- even English poets will feel ashamed---
---As a Black person will I be pass the untouchables? All questions to be answered. Islam says they are the true religion yet kills everyone everywhere---
English language : My foot . Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
I have been degraded
I have been degraded demonized and yet I dont return the vileness. That;s ok. America was made for us all. THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE. Free the Hindu mind set like Musalims need to be freed from the mindset that Allah is good and mo was not a pedo.
I am a proud Raisin Head because I dont have to FGM my girls, or allow acid to be thrown in theri faces for not marrying an old man. My husband cannot sell my girls for a debt. I am so proud and thankful that in less than 400 years descendants of Brits stopped slavery, JIM CROW, now a black woman is one of the richest people on earth, not from inheritance but hard work. Black women are now educated. Today black people are reaching the highest in the world the President of America. Now for the land that have been here for thousands of years still treat not only blacks but their own people like dirt, still do.
#16 go right ahead. #18
#16 go right ahead.
#18 Language is as language does. In America we speak as we wish. We are not British. American language is our own and yet you think we dont know what you say or think. You best not believe it.
#18 Muhammad called your mother STUPID first! Tabari 1:280
Matthews 10:11-15 says it.
Matthews 10:11-15 says it. Sodom and Gomorrah will be resurrected and given a chance to repent.
My hand of frienship is open and I dont dislike anyone but I dont trust everyone regardless of what they say.
Like Persia/Iran want to create the great Persia of long ago under Islam is lost in the hatred of Jews, the crock will eat them too.
8. proudkafir Says:The moral
8. proudkafir Says:The moral and morality compass are not absolute entities! The values attached to any thing ( words or deeds) need not be either totally immoral or completely moral for all people and for all times to come.
You mean love/compassion towards fellow human beings, following the golden rule may somehow become immoral and bad one day?
The examples you have given are of people who are cultist. Do I expect cultist to be good human being? NO!! They can have love and compassion , golden rule only for their cult members not the entire humankind.
Since there is no absolute moral compass, indicative of absolute guide lines applicable to all people of all times, moral compulsion to believe in GOD is irrelevant.
Have I ever said anywhere that we are morally obliged to believe in God? I don't believe that believing in God is a necessary prerequisite to become a good person.
# 13. ibrahim Says: ” I feel
# 13. ibrahim Says:
” I feel that FFI should introduce a moderating policy according to which dimwits and stupid folks should be stopped from posting at all.”
I agree with you brother; it is high time the moderators do some Forum Cleaning. Even I feel dirty to deal with the garbages with more garbage. At least they can remove some garbages as it was done few months before.
I think you suffer from
I think you suffer from inferiority complex.
Black is beautiful? Of course.Have you not seen the black horse?
Have you not seen the pearls? Have you not seen black peagents? Noo body evere said any thing about only white and non black as being beautyful.
Have you not seen that man Sidney poitre? Have you not seen that lady the supermodel from UK ? forget her name.campbell? Many black women tend to be quite curvaceous prior to getting it!
But then beauty is only skin deep!\It's in the eyes of the beholder.
Balck people sing and dance well.They enjoy life to the fullest with out a worry about tomorrow. There does it make you feel better?
But then american prisons are disproportionately filled with black people.And many of the blacks are getting converted to islam?
generalisation is generally incorrect and is bad!
#24 wow thanks pk. You just
#24 wow thanks pk. You just admitted what i said. this was/is the ideas before during and after Muhammad. Because of these thought black Indians were Untouchables. To Hindus Black is ugly. I know what you say about black. Arabs say the same thing. At least you just admitted it. As a blasck woman in America i am lighter skinned than most Indians, yet I am still a black and beautiful woman. SAY IT LOUD, I'M BLACK AND I'M PROUD. This is why I fight racism in India under Hinduism or Islam or christendom or Marxist or Nazism. I will fight i for all who have no voice, I really dont care what you call me, it is irrelevant. But I will tell the world as I know it, that Hindus are racist and the caste system is proof. Islam is a racism identify directed from Hinduism which preceeded it. This is proof of it in 2009. thank you #24 PK.
Fascism is Hinduism-soft fascism.
25# Hindus have a deity
25# Hindus have a deity called Krishna he is supposed to be black. Black does not necessarily mean untouchable. People towards the South of India are generally black in colour including Brahmins. Now if you say anyone an untouchable you will land up in jail. This shows how hard India is working towards getting rid of this caste system. Really you know so little about India. Just travel once there and you will understand the difference between casteism and racism, until then you only make a fool of yourself.
After 4000 years. wow what a
After 4000 years. wow what a religion and people. The dalits fought back after the Brits came and left!
#26 Krishna was a black
#26 Krishna was a black Indian, not a black African. Let's be honest. Black Indians are still Indo-European. Your features are still long str8 hair, keen noses, still indo-european. all whites are not whites, blond hair or blue eyes and all Black Americans are not black. Most Black American 85% of which are mixed with mostly American Indians and Europeans. Some dark skinned blacks have blond haired and blue eyed children. That is life.
You could not prove that its
You could not prove that its 4000 years, in your argument with Continnum1. (I can copy and paste it if you want.) Apart from Mr. Ambedkar, it was Brahmins and the Baniyas fighting for them, Mr. Nehru was a Brahmin and Mr. Gandhi was a Baniya.
These were the people who abolished the system by law and gave them reservations in government and educational establishments. You have so little knowledge of Indian history.
The Brits did nothing for them, otherwise they could have abolished this practice during their time.
All I can see is the hatred towards Hindus of a cultist Christian
28# Do you still believe that
28# Do you still believe that we are from Europe? God Bless You!!!
Dear Ibrahim Agree
Dear Ibrahim
Agree with you brother.thats one of the reasons i stopped posting on this forum.
#30 I NEVER SAID BRIT STOPPED
#30 I NEVER SAID BRIT STOPPED THE UNTOUCHABLES. I SAID THEY TOLD US ABOUT IT AND EXPOSED IT.
INDIANS ARE CALLED INDO-EUROPEANS IS WHAT I SAID.
KRISHNA IS painted as a blue black. The word Krishna means black in Hindu script. Now Krishna was there before Africans so he was not African black.
raisinhead is merely
raisinhead is merely repeating the vitriol that the church spews at its members about other faiths. Earlier it used to be the Pagans of Europe who were supposed to be savage, then the North American Indians, the South Americans, Australian aborigines, etc. Seems that everybody was savage before Christianity. And right now it is the turn of Hindus to feel the propaganda of the church about their faiths and beliefs, all of it filled with hatred and lies. Feel the love of Jesus.
Great one Mr. Sina. Forget
Great one Mr. Sina.
Forget about morality as the reason for religion, look at these fanatics as fear stricken individuals, no person will read the argument against the Islamic prophet and his heavenly bully and walk away with a loving acceptance of allah, what they all have is fear, consider whare Zaheer said he won't believe in Islam because of fear and later in the article he says " and when our vulnerability causes us to be fearful for our existence, could there be a better response from us than to be humble ourselves before Him (or His supposed existence)"
The whole belief is there because these people are so selfish that they accept the burning for eternity of the rest of humanityn in favor of them strolling away through the pearly gates, this is the hope they nurture not actual believe, they are the doutful ones, how can they not doubt this statement from the bible:
All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you.
How is this scientific? how many legs does insects have, is it not six? some impish apologists will say the word for insects is misrepresented, it means birds, still, does a fowl have four legs? it flies too.
How about the sperm formation in the human ribs, these ancients billy-goat looking xxxxwits had their dark age and still have their wannabes strutting and spreening around among us carrying the heavy bag of scare tactics type wisdom.
Jesus did not know shit about the orchid seed, he wouldn't have made the biblical statement that the Mustard seed is the smallest, likewise Mohammad didn't know anything about the celestial affair he wouldn't have said the stars are on the lower heavens, the followers always apologise for these things and say they mean this and that but won't allow themselves the thought that this Mohammad or Jesus is supposed to be a talking divinely from the authority of the most knowledgeable
How come the all-knowing allow his messengers to goof up on big and small issues knowing fully well (according to them) that the message is a matter of life and death, still the holy books will describe a young earth that must account for the co-existence of Dinos and men and keep posing as a guidance for mankind, how ungodly are such acts all these mumbo jumbo mumbling pretenders know what time it is, they just are scared xxxxless of the holy spook that eats on their feeble defence mechanism against bullxxxx.
I think we should
I think we should congratulate this cretin self proclaimed Christian " Raisin Head " for becoming the first ever "Most disgusted visitor" of this site FFI .
I called this cretin " A self proclaimed Christian " as I don't want to hurt the feelings of other decent Christians visitors of this site by equating them with this cretin.
Well I should have said "
Well I should have said " Most disgusting visitor " ! My mistake.
# 37. freedomfighter67 ; This
# 37. freedomfighter67 ; This topic like other topics have been hijacked by your Christian brethren " Dick Head " now enjoy the hijacking. LOL
#33-36 Thank you. I dont
#33-36
Thank you. I dont know whioch church you are talking about as I am not a member of any. Why cant you understand that all people are not any religion without being atheist. Grief. Why are your minds so closed as to say I must be a christian when I agree with them,. Dr. King was not a communist but associated with them and on some thing he agreed.
The KKK said Dr. King was the most disgusting man on earth. Jews said Hitler was the most disgusting. person. I say this is freedom. Because you all have not really experienced freedom of expression as I introduced you to, then yopur resort to name calling like Muslims do. Maybe Hindu-Islam is a better title for the Islamification of India. No Islamo-Hindu is a better title as you say the same hate filled words of blacks and me as they do. Remember the Untouchables just started receiving a little bit of freedom. FINALLY. sINCE i AM NOT A cHRISTIAN, PLEASE DONT EQUATE ME TO A RELIGION THAT KEPT SLAVES FOR 250 YEARS IN aMERICA FOLLOWING THE TENANTS OF iSLAM FOR GREED AND RACISM AS PORTRAYED IN THE qURAN AND HADITHS. REMEMBER KING VIKRAM RULED ARABIA WHEN MO WAS BORN.
Yes these incapable divine
Yes these incapable divine caricatures have dominated too much rational space, yes Mr. Sina, the existance of Jesus is highly debatable, one will think that a very important figure like J will have a clear record by the acknowledged historians of the time, but what do you know.
out of around 50 historians that lived in Jesus' time and the ones that lived around a hundred years after his death, from Justus of Taberius to Valerius Maximus, ptolemy, apollonius to Tacitus and the whole rest of them, we get nothing about Jesus except some two forged passages by a jewish writer and the other two passages by some Romans which are also disputed by historians there is nothing about Jesus.
I can even venture to say there should have been some mega stature of the J man or a shrine with his actual grave, but everything remains sketchy as if Jesus was just another make believe (purpose driven idea) erected on the mythologies of the past like the Mithra who shares the same birth process, 12 desciples, resurrection and many other Jesus type stunts, , Isis also got her own like Mary and many more, all these deities predated J man.
Sina gave this guy's supposed existence a chance of 10% I will give 7%, whatever the case maybe, that Jew (if he existed) wasn't divine, and I wish Mohammad did not come to the world, but the warlord was here no doubt, his grave and all are visible, actual historians recorded his wrath against humanity, too bad Mo isn't a myth.
The book "misquoting Jesus" by Bart D Erhman is really something to think about.
#38 I didnt hijack anything.
#38 I didnt hijack anything. I was attacked and i fought back.
Miss California was attacked when she spoke her mind as marriage is between
a man and a woman, and the gay judge called her all sorts of names. She was vindicated like I hope to be soon. Your vile comments prove me right. Talking about Islam is ok but not Hinduism. Unfair. Muslims are passing bills in the UN to stop free speech. Hindus will do it next on this site? I wish to thank you all for the negative comments which has really enlightened me as to the low browed unstable mental disease called racism.
#40 Constantine invented
#40 Constantine invented Roman Christianity and rename The sun God's birth dece 25 as the birth of Jesus. apparently someone knew Jesus was real.
It is amazing how all of these folks try to write books displaying Jesus as a myth. the Da vinca Codes is one.
Count Dracula was real and he hated Muslims. He drank their blood and disappeared, Count Vlad Dracula was no vampire. Most people didnt know he existed either.
This Raisinhead woman is of
This Raisinhead woman is of the desperate breed. Iam sure she will have been among those that can add some words to the actual history of Jesus to stay with Christ, Josephus was a Jewish historian who recorded a huge data but surprisingly says nothing concernig Jesus, forgeries such as the below passage in Josephus' work raise more doubt on the issue, consider the said mention of Jesus in Josephus' work:
"'Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works; a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was (the) Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. (Book XVIII, Chapter iii, Section 3).'
For nearly sixteen hundred years Christians have been citing this passage as a testimonial, not merely to the historical existence, but to the divine character of Jesus Christ. And yet a ranker forgery was never penned.
Its language is Christian. Every line proclaims it the work of a Christian writer.
"Its brevity disproves its authenticity. Josephus' work is voluminous and exhaustive. It comprises twenty books. Whole pages are devoted to petty robbers and obscure seditious leaders. Nearly fourty chapters are devoted to the life of a single king. Yet this remarkable being, the greatest product of his race, a being of whom the prophets foretold ten thousand wonderful things, a being greater than any earthly king, is dismissed with a dozen lines."
Forget the Davici code, we
Forget the Davici code, we are not talking about fantasies, check out the real history, why do you think a person that lived in the said Jesus' time forget to mention all the supernatural things that happened in Jesus' time, instead , he wrote about thieves more extensively?? don't you think Jesus' story will have been the greater part of the work.
Consider this:
"Justus of Tiberius was a native of Christ's own country, Galilee. He wrote a history covering this time of Christ's reputed existence. This work has perished, but Photius, a Christian scholar and critic of the ninth century, who was acquainted with it, says: 'He (Justus) makes not the least mention of the appearances of Christ, of what things happened to him, or of the wonderful works that he did' (Photius' Bibliotheca, code 33).
You are here shouting Christianity and Christendom as if you were there when it all went down, those who were there didn't even write about Jesus but you beat them in that arena, you grab on some straw man about the Davinci code, who do you think in the scholarly circle give a hoot about Dan Brown's thriller, grow up and face reality woman, you should be at best an agnostic towards Christianity since you aren't there so there is no way you could claim the knowledge, you will vever grow up till you bring forth an evidence for J.
BD writes: "Nearly fourty
BD writes:
"Nearly fourty chapters are devoted to the life of a single king. Yet this remarkable being, the greatest product of his race, a being of whom the prophets foretold ten thousand wonderful things, a being greater than any earthly king, is dismissed with a dozen lines.”
At the time, Jesus was viewed as a minor figure, so having little written about him by documentaries and historians is expected. Those people give more details in their writing about more known people. I guess what I am saying is that what you wrote here does not qualify as a good refutation to my beloved sister RH. Peace
Josephus solidified the
Josephus solidified the existence of Jesus and he was no christian,
Da Vinci was a fiction, based on writing to discredit the bible. It was a writing to completely discredit Jesus by agnostics and Christian haters. Paul once was a hater and killer of Christian.
Jesus made Christianity
Constantine made Roman christianity in 325 CE at the Council of Nicea.
I was not there and neither were you. You can deny and I can have faith. I cannot see God but I can believe. CHOICES. I have faith. I was not a slave either but I believe that slaves were in America. I have never been to India but I know people who lived the life. Evidence is truth. Scientist have been found guilty of putting Carbon 14 in bones to age them, so all evidence is not truth.
Pharaoh said he killed many men he never did but had men wroite it down on the statues for his glory.
TajMahal is Hindu temple not a mosques or grave built by Muslims. It belonged to Hindus. The world believed that it was Islamic until someone had the guts to investigate it.
If Jesus was not known, Constantine would have never made a duplicate Christianity. He knew Jesus lived once upon a time. Jews were still around from their ancestor talk. Jews wrote about Jesus, good or bad.
#37 Man you have got to be
#37 Man you have got to be kidding. American Jihad, we already did that and if you think children will follow you go to the prison and get them as you already are doing.
When the black children learn that islam hates their guts and will use them to get over, Muslims will not be able to walk the streets, believe me. When black women learn that Islam calls them stupif and ugly raisin headed pug nosed zenj and takrunis, you will go tell Obama that his wife is an ugly nappy headed pug nosed abbed and so is her mama. Man do you know what that will mean for Islam in American. Who will you jihad on other blacks. Allah is satan the devil according to quran 3:54. No sane man can cop a head off and think it is holy, because they rejected a religion.
Jesus never said kill because people rejected him
Jews didnt kill because folks didnt become a Jews
Only Muslims are to kill, lie deceive and destroy and terrorize per allah aka the devil
My biggest concern Mr Zaheers
My biggest concern Mr Zaheers argument is that it appears to be fundamentally anti-rational.
The argument goes as follows, at least according to my understanding:
Morality is a question of feelings. This is exemplified by the feelings of gratefulness and humbleness, which are moral feelings. Atheists and agnostics reject feelings as guiding principles. Therefore, they are amoral. God promotes feelings of gratefulness and humbleness. Therefore, the belief in God is moral.
I may have misinterpreted the above reasoning, but this is what it comes down to according to my understanding.
First of all, I would like to point out that feelings are not a guiding principle for morality. Feelings such as revenge and anger promote violence and immorality. Therefore, feelings alone may not lead to morality. Gratefulness, compassion and humbleness do count as moral feelings. But these feelings are not moral by and of themselves. They are only moral insofar they promote morality. Morality is what makes these feelings moral and not vice versa. These traits are not moral because they are feelings.
Therefore, morality must be discovered in something else and that is reason. Moral opinions must be open to scrutiny and criticism just like scientific questions. Anybody who believes in certain moral principles must justify them. A persons whose feelings automatically inspire him to moral behaviour, such a person is truly a beautiful soul. Therefore, feelings and morality are not mutually exclusive, but they are not the same.
Does a belief in god automatically promote morality? Well, it depends on the god. If it's a vengeful and bloodthirsty god, then this belief is not going to promote morality. On the contrary, this god is going to make you perform all kinds of hideous deeds. This is the problem of Islam. Mohammeds alter ego Allah is not a respectable person. His battle cry is: Kill the unbelievers, wherever you find them...
Regards,
kikl
Dear Ali Sina. I enjoy
Dear Ali Sina. I enjoy reading your debates and this one did not disappoint. Excellent. I am amazed at how you reply to the tricky questions. Khalid Zaheer appears to be a decent man. After reading his point of view, I found myself in the trap laid out by him. Then I read your response and heaved a sigh of relief. You destroyed his arguments with effortless ease. Just common sense. That was it. I liked the example of the rich man distributing money and then torturing those people who do not thank him. Thank you Ali, once again.
Ibrahim, I agree with
Ibrahim, I agree with you.There should be meaningful discussions relevant to the article. I hope FFI will have a more stringent moderating policy in this matter.
Ibrahim and rajiv12, I agree.
Ibrahim and rajiv12, I agree. People are highjacking the discussion, they should be directed to another open forum,...