Apostates Speak Out: Ibn Warraq on Defending the West (Videos)

Thank you, FFI, for showing these video's.

I am sure to buy Ibn Warraqs book. It provides us with so much ammunition. Now we can see why we ought to be proud of Western civilization, in part precisely because of self-criticism! We can now formulate our positive goals, preferably worldwide, instead of only defending ourselves against Islam's onslaught.

We can become committed to our values, so eloquently put forward by Ibn Warraq, as much as the radical Muslims are committed to theirs. Now most of the Westerners are so little committed to anything. And I think the most committed wins in the end. Even if the West has an overwhelming part of the advantages vis-a-vis Islam, still the fundamentalist (real) Muslims outbid the Democrats in commitment.

Ali Sina, Brigitte Gabriel are right, the so-called "Moderates" do not exist, or do not give a peep. If they exist, they are completely worthless, or outright hypocritical. Anyway, the word means "being less of something". It does not describe what a "moderate" is for in any way. In this way you could say a "moderate" is just an underdeveloped Fundamentalist! But if we formulate Western values, like the 5 pillars of Islam, Human rights, the things Ibn Warraq formulates, then we can make the division between Dictatorial Muslims, Democratic Muslims or undecided, neutral or "moderate" ones.

Upon immigration from now on, we can try to set up contracts for people to support Democratic values, to be Democratic Muslims instead of Dictatorial ones. We can invite all Muslims to become Democratic Muslims, to speak out against Dictatorial Muslims, like those in Iran, of the Taliban etc. If Muslims want to remain neutral, we can accept, but when they openly support Dictatorial Islam, because it is a God-Given system, not to be changed one iota, etc, then we should view and treat them as our enemies.

Typo, I meant the 5 pillars of Democracy

Dear Demsci, where is the video ? I clicked the article twice thrice but no video was found coming up.Can some body guide me how to locate the video of these two greate ppl.I am a fane of Ibn Warraq.

nusratali, try click the big arrow in the middle first and then click the smaller arrow down. It should work, otherwise consult someone.

It was an excellent speech by Ibn Warraq. I was spellbound for a while. It is a great puzzle why people can not see the truth as Ibn Warraq sees it. I do understand that the Muslims in their native countries will not have the opportunity to see the truth. At least when they emigrate to West they should be able to see the difference. But alas! they chose to remain in utter darkness, except a few. Is there any truth in Jesus' saying "not every one seeing sees; not everyone hearing hears"

MUST-APES have no option apart from aping their Pervert!

I love classical music, Gothic, medieval architecture and I don't need a lesson from Islam on how to be a better civilization.

Great speech from Ibn Warraq.

Dear people!

I am a muslim converted, and proud to be a muslim. the reason is easy. Islam and muslims are not the enemy of the world, Islam and muslims are not the enemy of humanity. we have nothing to be ashamed in our historiy.
why to be ashamed ?
for Andalusia? For Kostanidonopol? For our historicaly defence of sciece? for Our defends of the human rights? For what?

I am not ashaming even the cristians and the jews because my Qouran forbiden this. But let the history tell its truth. who are the realy enemy of the world in the past and in the present. who si killing each other, muslims are killing cristians or jews or the oposite?

please do not let your hate command your intelect. give your mind the right to breath.
Islam is not based on human politics or aims. Islam is not based on arabs or any other nationality. Islam is for every one and respects the oposite thinking.
Allah says to non belivers: [if you are not beliving (is your right) but give your arguments for this].

I don want to judge Ibn Warraq, the passing time will tell to all who is him.

i am opened for a constructive dialogue. and i belive that west and Islam can live together if the west is an opened mind and muslims practice the real Islam and not their origin country traditions.

Selam [Peace]

respects
Eduart Thartori

Dear Eduart,

We can discuss a lot about History. Andalusia and Constantinopel for instance, were conquered with much violence from Christians. Are you proud of that? Nobody is ashamed for defence of Science and Human Rights, but you might consider being ashamed for Muslims' lack of this defence, in past and present.

We "Democrats" have a great capacity of Self-Criticism, you can learn from Ibn Warraq. So many of us are inclined to be ashamed of the past of Western countries. But at the same time proud of their democratic, scientific achievements. Of course it is logical you are also proud of the achievements of Muslims, but we invite you to more Self-Criticism too. Then you might see our "Trump Card", that is learning from our mistakes and improving ourselves.

There seem to be a lot of Islams in the world. Can you honestly say that the radical variants of it do mean Democracy no harm? Can you choose for complete Democracy spreading over the Islamic World? Can you side with Democratic Countries against Iran and the Taliban?

I think the stakes are very high, you know. I think radical Muslims aim for expansion of Islam worldwide at the cost of Democracy. That they do not think Islam and Democracy are compatible, which a lot of Westerners and Indians also doubt. What do you think?

eduartts
dear nice to know tht now u r muslim..may God Bless you and always keep smiling
you are right why you should asmhed of a person who have sex wid 9 year old girl...
u r rite..y u should b ashmed of a person....who only kill and have sex wid many slave girls and his wives too...
tht man was rite...coz he was in power at tht time..bt wat is true and wat is wrong..you should know..
we really dont have any Problem wid you r ur ppl...
we dont have any harsh r hate wid you...we are aginst islam not you...we hate islam not you....we are ashmed of islam not you...
islam kills not you
islam rape non muslim girls not you...
islam allows u kill non muslims not you r in favour...

dear edwartt
assalam walaikum will rahmatulahi will not be blessed upon you

wouldn't surprise me you converted

how many idiot in this world? 1 billion more already that we already now for sure,

just because you comparing few stock pot soup, and this one got carrot and celery too that is good for you, but what you didn't know they use RAT meat on the one you choose to eat, they may smell nice cos they put herbs in it,

try to persue your new found religion straight to heart of it, where the poverty and disctatorship and misery that all u found,

please dont talk about history,

have you ever heard Al hakim 1009 or the siege of jerusalem,

man... you guys ignorantly funny

Oh, and Eduartt, let me spare you some efforts to inform us how bad Christians, Western democracies, Jews have been or still are. We have heard so much of that before. And you know what, with much of it many of us agree! You see, many of us are not just proud and without criticism about our peoples'history and culture, we condemn and deplore much of it.

Instead you might inform us about our good points but why Islam is still better, even if its drawbacks are taken into account. And we can return the courtesy then.

It seems to me that White Europeans in the 19th century had this delusion they were superior to the rest of mankind. Then came culture-relativism, with much criticism on its own cultures. You know, all cultures are equally bad. This seems to have led to Political Correctness. But you know this still harbours unconsciously the idea that somehow Westerners (including Israeli') are still superior, that they have the superior system, hence they can be criticized much more than the "underdeveloped, poor savages" of the Third World. Noah Chomski is someone with this complex.

But I like to degrade us Westerners completely from this superiority-complex, even of this subconscious idea that we are more responsible, hence more to blame. No, we are just as fallible, just as (ir)responsible as everybody else.

This idea I am talking about I learned from Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Irshad Manji.

Eduartt, the convert to Islam. I say you are blessed that you could convert to Islam but now you are stuck. If you leave you will die. As a Muslims you have to kill non-Muslims according to Sura 8:39. You have a quran read it. As a black woman, Islam is not for me. Allah your racist god said I am ugly, nappy headed, pug nosed aBEED and Stupid. Tabari l:280. Allah said I was cursed Sura 3:106. Mo said allah created African to be slaves to white people and when dead after being worked to death, hellfire. HOw loving is allah the DEVIL according to Sura 3:54.

Most converts to Islam I know are from prison. Sane people dont join unless it is for power over the bad ones. Buy the book Religious Bullying by Raisin Head
Xlibris.com. It tells you what Islam really is and what they want to do to the world. Bullys need to be allowed to explore the moon, allah's habitate.

Demsci wrote:

You see, many of us are not just proud and without criticism about our peoples’history and culture, we condemn and deplore much of it.

Don't you mean we are not arrogant?

Hello Marie,

I suppose many of our (Western) ancestors were arrogant toward other peoples, but the vast majority of us is no longer arrogant in this way. In this forum we chastise Muslims. I think we should give good example to them by admitting part of the faults they and we see in our past. This doesn't mean that we are not proud of the achievements of our countrymen in the past also. We can be in part proud and ashamed at the same time, I think.

Raisinhead 13:
Hi Raisin-cockhead. U again in a new chapter of this web, still fretting against Islam!! What has gone wrong with u. Are u living in a muslim country, where they are buggering u badly? If not, I understand u must be safe in a western country and your ass reserved for peaceful "consenting adults" only. So why fret?

U amaze me. U studying Qurand! and U of all, referring to Qurandic verses! So, don't be afraid while u refer to verse 8/39. The verse does not refer to u. It is not
ordering a big kill. It is giving the-then-very-few muslims to wage war in defence against the Kaafirs of Mecca, who invaded their city Medina many times and
killed and looted them. Whoever hate-monger told u a wrong version, is an accursed one. Again u refer to 3/106 and complain about yr creation as
an african black. My dear, the verse is not dealing with colour or race. Again some pimp has misguided u. This verse says that on the day of judgement, the evil-doers (meaning the white sodomists, lesbians and incestors and bastards and children of bastards) will have a face black with the terror of the inevitable punishment and the faithful ones will have their faces shinning with happiness and contentment. So keep your cool and remain calm...as Islam is not against humanity at all. It is only the concocted stories and biased propaganda, and it is not going to eliminate muslims or Islam.

In the end It is noted that u are a woman. This makes me ashamed my dear to speak to u like that. I have to be careful next time. A woman has to be respected and remains respectable. So u must also behave and avoid using ugly language, in order to remain respectable. And I also quote for ur deep thinking from your Bible:

as Mosses died before reaching the promised land, it was Joshua who in about 1200 BCE led the Israelites into Canaan and established twelve tribes in the Promised Land by means of long an utterly ruthless military campaign..... Bible witnesses these events:
"The number of those who fell that day, men and women together, was twelve thousands all people of Ai--then Joshua burned Ai, making it a ruin for evermore, a desolate place even to this day" Joshua 8:24, 25, 28

This is the kind of things your ancestors have been doing and your present ones are following the same pattern around the globe. So wake up, stand up to them and join hands in saving the humanity and the earth. Read YOUR Bertrand Russel's "Why I am Not a Christian".

This goes for Demsci too.

#16 says It is giving the-then-very-few muslims to wage war in defence against the Kaafirs of Mecca, who invaded their city Medina many times and
killed and looted them.

That is a white lie and you know it.

Meccan qureshis tried to put an end to muhammad's banditry(ghazwa on merchant caravans) by amassing forces in battle of khandaq.Muhammad escaped by digging khandaqs(Ditches) from the advice of a persian).Meccans Never bothered with muhammad after he left to medina till he along his thugs started looting meccan merchant caravans.

Aurangzaib,

On this forum we scrutinize Islam. One primary reason to do so is that there seem to be these 2 different ways of organizing society; the Islamic one and the Democratic one. Many call us Islamofobic, but we are concerned about the Islamic way competing with the Democratic way. Please remember that; we have a big concern, that is in part our motivation.

It derives in part from the unprecedented migration-wave, out from Islamic countries into Democratic ones. And in part from the way these Islamic countries are organised. Sure, the dictators may often not seem very Islamic, coöperating with Western governments and companies, but in Islamic countries Islam is favored outrageously over other religions. It is forbidden to criticize Islam, it is forbidden to leave Islam, to proselytize for other religions than Islam.

This seems very unfair to us Democrats. It also seems to us that much of our prosperity, freedom, many scientific inventions and other obvious advantages of our countries over many Islamic ones are due to the Democratic way of organizing society versus the Islamic way of organizing it. And please feel free to compare the two at your hearts content. We learn much from it.

You may point out to us that somehow large Western companies, along with Western governments, still exert disproportionate influence in many Islamic countries, and exploit them, corrupting leaders and elite in them. But you might also view it as inevitable that stronger human groups tend to maximize their advantage. And other human groups just have the responsibility to wise up, unite, get stronger, defend themselves. And now the West has for instance to reckon much with the BRIC-countries, Brazil, Russia, India, China. It seems that these countries are very well capable of defending themselves and others from rapacious behavior of big companies. This is the way Islamic countries should go, instead of whining all the time, I think.

In the context of all of us on this forum being Democrats, it is not of much use when Muslims blame-criticize Christians, because the Atheists-Freethinkers and Hindus also do that, and they do not mince words either. And it is of not much use either to blame-criticize the Imperialistic past of Western countries, up until 1970, because the vast majorities of their citizens already do that themselves and the Hindus surely also.

But it is very useful to compare the performance of both systems. And to examine from where do most people want to go and to where they want to go. This is FROM Islamic countries TO Democratic ones. Also it is useful to examine the truthfulness of Islams claims of divine revelation, saying things like "This is Gods word, and HE is much wiser than mere humans". Of course most of us Democrats refute this. But we would not consider it very important, if only a part of the Muslims would not pursue an alternative way of organizing society, their own AND ours, and part of the rest of the Muslims often seems sympathetic to this, often hostile to Democratic countries and leaders or very indifferent.

salutations to All

my first comment to my friends!

I thank Allah that presented to me Islam before i know muslims

i will not return your bad words for me. I am not who you significated me and for this i am proud.

the next full coments are in arriving

Respects for you \

Eduartts

Islam is God`s religion.

to hate muslims is your choice, me too, personally i hate some muslims who do not understand realy Islam and practice their tradition as an Islamic rule.
But to hate Islam you are hatening your self and Allah will complete His light. even thought you hate it. eduart